Someone here doubted effects of fracking on farmers...

laceyvail(6A, WV)November 30, 2012

Here's a link to an article. It refers to animals, but the results for organic farmers of vegetables have been similar. It does make the news--just not the big media giants. (Sorry I don't know the "proper" way to post links.

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Lacey, hit the preview button, then copy the link to the box below.

So the fracking contaminates the water which sickens the livestock? And for veggies contaminated irrigation water is the issue? Obviously I didn't read the link.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 7:34AM
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I doubted the effects of fracking on farmers. And I read your linked article. I also studied biology at the graduate level. What you've got there isn't science, it's an advocacy piece dressed up as science. The incidents they refer to? They don't tell you where they happened! Apparently, it's a secret. The authors are a guy and his wife - the article doesn't tell you of the relationship. Neither has ever published in the field of environmental health. And here's a link to an outside scientist's opinion of their work. If you're really serious about learning about this subject and this particular paper, please read this. The truth is that it's an embarrassment. Cornell University has been getting anti-fracking money from the Park Foundation and they're going to produce anti-fracking results. That's no different that a tobacco company producing pro-tobacco results. Again, if you're open minded and really want to know, read this linked article. There's a reason why this story, from a paper first reported in March of this year, has not gained any traction in the media - which would love it to be true.

Here is a link that might be useful: Critique of anti-fracking claims.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 2:23PM
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I, too, am a scientist, though a horticulture/crop/soil scientist...nonetheless...the lax laws of open-pit storage of fracking chemicals is irresponsible as hell for our governments to continue to allow to happen.

Cornell University also gets pro-fracking money and has pro-fracking supporters (John Deutch, for instance).

The wholesale dismissing of reports from educational institutes based upon money they take (mostly indirectly to totally indirectly to research) is getting stupid. It's running rampant in every level of science from GMO to fracking to...hell, almost every level of research.

Also just dismissed research followed by liking a website run/funded by the Petroleum Association of America.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 5:53PM
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Also, for veggies the biggest problem with fracking water/pools would be the metals contained in the wastewater.

Unless the water coming from a well becomes contaminated it's not much of an issue.

There's other issues with the petrochemical "flammable water" after becoming contaminated, but that's rather rare.

Myself, I'm a lot more concerned about the open-air pit storage of fracking chemicals more-so than the stuff they're pumping back into the ground for storage.

Then again, I don't rely on well water in an area where fracking is going to take place. If I did, I might be a lot more concerned about it even if it's rather rare.

We really need to address this issue of above-ground pit storage, though. That's the stuff that has a higher chance of effecting well-drawn water, the soil, and breach contamination of the well as the amount of methane these pools produce that's controlled less carefully than hog lagoons. This is the cause of most of the stuff that's screwing up people's water/environment.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 6:05PM
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laceyvail(6A, WV)

I live in a state where fracking is ruining, and I mean, ruining, peoples' land. I've seen it. And several hundred thousand acres of land in the county I live in are leased to drillers, though it hasn't yet begun here. Scientific American stated in an editorial about a year ago that the technology has way exceeded our knowledge of the safety of fracking, and in the same issue had an article showing exactly how repeated fracking produced fissures in rock allowing contamination.

It's as willfully blind to claim that this new and highly invasive technology is safe (especially as it has so few regulations) as it is to imagine that deep well drilling in the oceans is safe and being done by highly ethical people who are carefully obeying all the regulations they have. Oh, and mining for coal (by the folks who owns the Upper Big Branch Mine, for example) is also being done by companies with high ethical standards for safety. Anybody here heard of those problems?

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 5:54AM
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I share your outrage about what has happened and is happening in Appalachia. When I see the pictures of mountain-tops removed and streams filled in I am simply stunned, I just can't imagine that anybody would decide to do such a thing regardless of how much money could be gained. I guess that's just it, no one person makes such an insane decision nor carries it out.

Fracking must be much less dramatic than that and so even easier to carry out.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 7:41AM
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sunnibel7 Md 7(7)

I get to hear a bit about the fracking controversy from my brother who works at the "other" school in Ithaca. It's pretty bad, and of course it is driven by a percieved need so it isn't going to go away easily. There's something specious about dismissing an article out of hand because it was written by a husband and wife. There are many intelligent, successful husband and wife teams out there, scientists included. It has nothing to do with the price of apples... Or the discussion at hand.

I wonder sometimes about who some of our various members work for. Some seem to come down on every "issue" as pro-chemical, anti-organic every time and call it being open minded...

As an interesting, perhaps related aside, there was a fascinating documentary about sociopaths. Apparently the "healthy" ones (the ones who don't go on killing sprees and such), tend to excell in big business. Explains a lot about the policies made that your average, caring human cannot understand how businesses can be so unmoved about the negative impact of their doings on actual people...
Oops, out of time, can't edit for clarity and so forth, hope that last sentence made sense.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 1:44PM
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Ahem, while I don't have an opinion on fracking (other than I have yet to see any real peer reviewed research in a major scientific journal that says its dangerous), I do rather take offense at the idea that I might be "working for someone" because I don't buy into the hippy mindset for my backyard garden.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 8:32PM
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There's plenty of peer-reviewed articles on the dangers of fracking in respected journals...and the non-danger of fracking.

You have to actually want to read them, though...or at least acknowledge their existence.

...from chemicals, to re-injection, to the use of diesel fuel (popular because of lack of regulation)...there's plenty out there.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 8:39PM
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Fwiw, many states are enacting legislation to protect their environment because of out-of-control businesses destroying land and waterways. It's a battle because the national EPA rules are generally the guideline many of these businesses wish to follow.

The problem is what works in Wisconsin doesn't work in Florida...for instance FL's new nutrient management laws which exceed national accepted levels in order to protect sensitive wetlands that other states don't have to deal with. This is a conservative state.

As far as fracking goes, TN (also a conservative state...very conservative) is also pushing stricter controls over fracking practices based upon damage already seen in their area...and this is a state who's TVA air pollution had to go to court to be handled and remediated.

People need to "get the f- over" viewing science as a political would help if politicians didn't use science (or science denial) as a political tool.

Also, fwiw, most areas negatively affected by fracking are generally conservative voting areas. Granted, not every area that undergoes fracking will see negative effects. What's going on in the dust-plains of TX probably isn't going to be same issues going on in PA/WV.

If you're going to pay attention, selectively, to science on's best (imo) to see what's being researched and published in your area while considering the source bias (especially for any independent studies, which tend to be more tainted in scope than studies done by educational institutions).

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 8:53PM
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Do not believe any scientists or scientific reports, pro or con, regarding any issue at hand. The entire system has been corrupted and they are all bought and paid for by someone or some entity for some reason. Do not trust anyone, period. Trust your instincts, they are most likely correct.

Screw the system, screw academia, screw the "experts", screw the government.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 11:25PM
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I only believe what I hear on random blogs and youtube, myself. Everything else is pretty much run by the Illuminati and the New World Order.

Besides, the real danger in the environment is contrails using mind control chemicals. Wake up sheeple!

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 11:29PM
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"I only believe what I hear on random blogs and youtube, myself."

Which makes you part of the problem.

I am a pragmatic pessimist. You are a fool who naively trusts the system.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 12:02AM
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zeedman Zone 5 Wisconsin

Not sure what this has to do with gardening... this seems to be devolving into a Hot Topics thread, and should be moved there.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 1:18AM
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"I only believe what I hear on random blogs and youtube, myself."
Which makes you part of the problem.

I am a pragmatic pessimist. You are a fool who naively trusts the system."

Not sure if you are re-leveling nc-crn, I don't think so...

"Not sure what this has to do with gardening... this seems to be devolving into a Hot Topics thread, and should be moved there."

To whatever mods are out there:

Move the thread or lock it up!

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 2:08AM
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NC, that is quite true about florida, the state has very draconian oversight of surface and ground water impacts. In general it's a good thing, except for how it makes alternative ways of dealing with human effluent on a single-family scale even more difficult than most places.

    Bookmark   December 5, 2012 at 2:02PM
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