Guess what I thought was Bermuda is really St Augustine?

pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)January 6, 2009

I always assumed this grass was Bermuda as it looks like it by the way it spreads via stolons and it appears flattened moreso than the way typical Floratam or Sapphire St. Augustine grows.

Also the invasive nature of the grass made me assume it was Bermuda as I have tried to lasagne mulch over it around my Citrus trees to no avail and the only grass I was told that will thrive even under several inch layers of mulch like this is Bermuda grass.

I just picked up 2 flats of Celebration Bermuda plugs and they have very very fine blades almost like the Zoysia Emerald plugs I am familiar with.

Here is the grass that grows over the poly pebble decking. My idea of the only kind of grass that is supposed to do this is Bermuda. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have never experienced St. Augustine to spread like this, or appear stragely and thin like this. Notice it also doesn't really look like the Bermuda grass in the flats in the last picture below:

Next is a picture of what I am familiar with as far as what St. Augustine is supposed to look like. Notice how thick and straw like and coarse bladed it is, which is one of the reasons I never cared for that type of grass here in Florida as A) everyone grows it here and B) it just doesn't appear attractive to me as it always seems bunchy despite how flat the sod was layed out:

Next is 2 pictures of the grass that is mostly dominant over the lawn (probably 80-90%) and what I have been assuming is Bermuda. Notice it doesn't have that thick straw like appearance of the above St. Augustine and yet it doesn't have the fine bladed look of the Celebration Bermuda in the flat below. Is this what is called common Bermuda?

Last picture here is of the flat of Celebration Bermuda plugs. It doesn't look like either of the above grasses pictured, but maybe Celebration Bermuda looks different still from even common Bermuda?

Your thoughts are welcome. Thanks.

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texas-weed(7A)

Well Bermuda looks nothing like SA. I doubt you can tell one Bermuda variety from the other, but there is no mistaking Bermuda and SA once you have seen what each looks like. SA is very coarse, while Bermuda is very fine bladed.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2009 at 4:00PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Texas, thanks for responding. Can you care to guess if the pictures of the creeping grass some variety of St. Augustine? The only grasses that have stolons are Bermuda and St. Augustine, correct? Also why if it is St. Augustine, why it would look far different than the real thick bunchy grass that I know for certain is St. Augustine? Most St. Augustine grasses tend to look very similar.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2009 at 5:33PM
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bpgreen(5UT)

"The only grasses that have stolons are Bermuda and St. Augustine, correct?"

No. Zoysia, centipede, buffalo grass are all warm season grasses that have stolons (although it's unlikely that buffalo grass would be in FL) and so do many weedy grasses and a few cool season grasses).

    Bookmark   January 6, 2009 at 5:51PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Well Zoysia is out as it looks much different comparing them side by side. Centipede is much smaller blades from my experience with it, and correct Buffalo grass isn't native down here in southwest Florida.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2009 at 6:30PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Any Florida people in here that want to take a stab at what the first 4 pictures of grass actually are?

    Bookmark   January 7, 2009 at 9:49AM
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gatorinfla

I'll take a WAG......That looks like St Augustine mixed in with something else. Crabgrass maybe?

    Bookmark   January 7, 2009 at 10:17PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Which one looks like crab grass and which one is St Augustine?

    Bookmark   January 7, 2009 at 10:40PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Actually after looking at pictures of crabgrass it does resemble most of that.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2009 at 11:13PM
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gatorinfla

Looks like you have some seedheads there too...........

    Bookmark   January 8, 2009 at 7:06AM
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bpgreen(5UT)

If you have an extension service office near you, your best bet would be to take some of the grass (include some of the roots and as many of the identifying above-ground features as possible). If there are two different kinds of grass there, take some of each.

I've seen a lot of cases of pictures of grass being misidentified because it can be very difficult to accurately identify grass from pictures. I remember one time, somebody posted several pictures of the same grass and had the grass identified as if each picture showed a different type of grass. It works much better if the grass can be examined up close.

    Bookmark   January 8, 2009 at 10:34AM
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gatorinfla

* Posted by bpgreen 5UT (My Page) on
Thu, Jan 8, 09 at 10:34

I've seen a lot of cases of pictures of grass being misidentified because it can be very difficult to accurately identify grass from pictures. I remember one time, somebody posted several pictures of the same grass and had the grass identified as if each picture showed a different type of grass. It works much better if the grass can be examined up close.

Agreed, in a pinch, you could even got to your local Lesco, they could probably tell you too.

    Bookmark   January 9, 2009 at 9:14AM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Lesco is a store? I thought it was the brand of fertilizer sold at Home Depot?

    Bookmark   January 9, 2009 at 10:24AM
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texas-weed(7A)

Lesco is a store? I thought it was the brand of fertilizer sold at Home Depot?

Correct it is both. What the orange bos has is extremely limited selection. At a Lesco delaer you will find hundreds of formulations and other products.

    Bookmark   January 9, 2009 at 10:38AM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

Products at Lesco store is actually a lot cheaper than buying them at HD where the price has skyrocketed...

    Bookmark   January 9, 2009 at 1:16PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Where is Lesco located in my area southwest Florida? I was assuming it was a brand that was trucked in from Texas or California and that is was of a generic brand as the packaging is generally a white plain bag with just a green or brown Lesco logo. To be honest it seems to look like a more generic variety than the $.99 topsoil they sell in the cheap looking 40# bags of topsoil/garden soil. I could be wrong though.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 12:08PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Found the website and lo and behold there is a Lesco in my area but the website doesn't bring up prices to be able to pre-order online. I have to call in to the store manager? Is the 46-0-0 better than the 39-0-0 that Texas Weed recommended in another thread?

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 12:32PM
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bpgreen(5UT)

"Is the 46-0-0 better than the 39-0-0 that Texas Weed recommended in another thread?"

Not necessarily better. Just different. They're both high N fertilizers with no P or K. If you use 46-0-0 instead of 39-0-0, you'll want to adjust the amount you use to apply the same amount of actual N.

For example, to apply 1 lb of N per 1000 sq ft using 39-0-0, you'd use 100/39 lbs of fertilizer or 2.56 lbs per 1000 sq ft. You'd use 100/46 or 2.17 lbs of 46-0-0 fertilizer for the same 1 lb of actual N.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 12:42PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Still not sure how you adjust the amount per /square foot on the spreader. I have a Scotts spreader and it had a round cylindrical dial that adjusts the size of the opening on the unit. Not sure what those numbers mean either. They range from 1 to 10 and they have fractions between the numbers even. Also how do you determine the amount of # for an area that is an unusual shape? There are few yards that are uniformly 1000 square feet.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 1:36PM
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bpgreen(5UT)

I think most fertilizer bags will give directions that tell what setting to use on the spreader. I had an off-brand, so I always had to just make a guess. I'd typically set it so it didn't spread much at a time and make multiple passes in different directions.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 2:54PM
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texas-weed(7A)

Is the 46-0-0 better than the 39-0-0 that Texas Weed recommended in another thread?

You need to look at the product details closer. 46-0-0 is a fast release formula. Not something you really want to use unless you are talking about a golf coarse green with weekly 1/4 stregth applications.

You are better off using a slow release urea like 39-0-0 Lesco product number 000777, and for Florida residents 026658. Both are 39-0-0 100%PPSCU which means a formulation of 100% Poly Plus Sulphur Coated Urea, or it is 100% slow relase.

Lesco is not generic, it is a professional grade fertlizer. Price depends on who you are and quantity purchased.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 3:39PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Texas are the Lesco products in plain white bags with a green or brown logo? Also why wouldn't I just use the 000777 bag just because I am in Florida? What makes that product different than the 026658 product? This is probably a moot point anyways as I prefer using organics this year with alfalfa/soybean mix.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 4:47PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Ok I found a Scotts PDF for their fertilizer application rates and it doesn't seem to apply to your guys pounds/1000 square foot idea. Can you make any sense of it, or at the least how I would convert my spreader (# setting on the cone) to what you guys use for #/1000 sq ft.? Thanks.

Scotts Professional Rotary Spreader Settings

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 4:53PM
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bpgreen(5UT)

TW--thanks for clarifying that one of the products is fast release and the other is slow release. That's a very important point, especially with such high N, since fast release will burn more readily.

PPPP--Are those fertilizers the Lesco fertilizers you're planning on buying? The reason I ask is that the settings vary based on such things as the amount of N in the product, granule size, etc.

Anyway, they give values in g/m2 so you need to convert to lbs per 1000 sq ft. The easiest way to do that is to use the google calculator. 5 (g per (meter squared)) = 1.02408072 pounds per (1000 (sq ft)).

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 5:14PM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

TW-

What do you think of Lesco 080300 - IRON PLUS 20FE 8MN 5MG 7.5S 2ZN? I was thinking of cutting back on fertilizer to twice a year on established st augustine lawn (fall and spring) and try that product in the summer to maintain its color while slowing down growth. There are times that I don't feel like mowing during hot weather...

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 5:37PM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

Before and After Lawn

Here's what my st augustine lawn looks like when properly maintained. Honestly, I never thought i'd have such nice lawn like that on rocky soil. I water every 10-14 days during the growing season. I sometimes get lazy with mowing which is a big plus because you can't really afford to get lazy with bermuda lawn or they brown out at the bottom when they get a little too tall.

I actually prefer coarse bladed zoysia like palisades,jamur, or empire but I wasn't sure if it could compete with bermuda so I went with st augustine esp sapphire known for its aggressiveness growth. I think one of my neighbors has Celebration lawn but the homeowner never really cared for it and right now it looks downright terrible. Oh well. It does definitely look different from other bermuda varieties. Celebration has thicker purple stolons with short nodes. The blades seem to be a bit wider. It has interesting color, bluish cast to it.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2009 at 6:15PM
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pkapeckopickldpepprz(z9 a/b FL)

Lou, I have seen your pics before going through a years worth of threads here. I've always meant to ask you, but how did you manage to go from an empty lot on April 4th to a fully built house with a pristine lawn just a few months later on July 9th? I've never met contractors that worked that quickly... Ever...

    Bookmark   January 11, 2009 at 3:52PM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

I did all the yard work myself. I pretty much got rid of everything that contractor put in. Tree and bermuda lawn in the front. The backyard was just a blank with tons of little rocks that I had to rake away then put down a thin layer of topsoil before sodding. We moved into the house on July 15, 2005. I put down st augustine in the backyard a week later then got rid of bermuda in the front yard September with 5 applications of round up. I had to wait till late February to sod the front yard with st augustine.

    Bookmark   January 11, 2009 at 4:33PM
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texas-weed(7A)

Lou I assume you know that product is 0-0-0 right? If your lawn is in need of the micro nutrients it is fine. However it is used more for pros to mix there own fertilizers. If you are just after say eith Magnesium or Iron or one of the other micro nutrients you do know you can buy other things like Epsom Salts, Garden Sulfur, or Green Sand for probale less money? Depends on what you are after.

    Bookmark   January 11, 2009 at 11:45PM
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