Does seville grass thatch heavily and kill itself?

guy777June 4, 2014

Had yard sodded about 10 years ago with floratam. Great for most of this time, but now we have huge brown patches. Gets regular water and fertilizer and we have yard professionally bug sprayed qtrly. The bug sprayer folks, who do other lawn services and are knowledgeable, say that the brown spots appear to be seville sodded in inadvertently with the floratam. They say the seville doesn't handle direct sun as well as floratam, and will heavily thatch and choke itself out and die after a few years. Anyone heard of this?

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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

Nope. Never heard of that. Never heard of any of that. Never heard of quarterly insecticide apps either.

Would you characterize the brown areas as either higher or lower than the surrounding lawn areas?

Can you post a picture of the lawn? Specifically take the picture on a cloudy day. Also take a picture of the brown grass from a distance of 3 inches away. It should look something like this (only deader)...

How often do you water and for how long?
How high/low do you mow?
When were the last two times you fertilized and what did you use?

Would you be open to the idea of not spraying insecticide - ever? I've never used a chemical insecticide on the lawn - at least not since I was a kid, maybe. Generally the insects in your lawn are extremely beneficial and belong there. If you happen to get grubs and/or chinch bugs which eat St Augustine, then treat them when you get them, not before.

Would you be open to the idea of abandoning the lawn treatments and going to a full organic regimen?

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 4:44PM
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Thanks for the answer.

Brown area is in middle of high and low areas of yard. Don't have a pic, but will try to get one posted.

I water 3 times/wk min right now, have 11 legs on sprinkler system (big yard), about 20 mins/leg. Water at 3-6AM. Rainy season is starting, so I'll water less soon. I'm in S. Florida.

Wouldn't mind going organic at all. I live next to woods, so bugs come from there and spraying keeps them from yard, and away from house too.

Fertilized in Feb and May with 20-2-10 each time.

Had grass expert come by and said I had nematodes that killed the big dead area of my lawn. Said no legal insecticide would kill them. Said tear out and resod was best way to get yard back. He has no interest in the sod business, so didn't think he was fishing for business. Anyway, I'm pricing the resod job now.



    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 1:59PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

You're watering far too much and very likely not long enough when you do. This is coming from someone who has not yet watered his St Aug lawn on the edge of the Texas desert. At my lawn in San Antonio we water about once a month unless it rains. I have friends in Phoenix who water once a week until the temps get up around 100+. Then they go to once every 5 days. 3x per week in south FL is way more often than you need. When temps are in the 80s, deep watering once every other week should be sufficient. Deep means a full inch all at one time. Measure an inch with tuna or cat food cans.

There are several problems with watering too much. The main one is usually weeds. Weed seeds need continual surface moisture to germinate. Second issue is fungal disease. If the soil remains soggy or the air is cut off to the grass, a fungal disease can get started. If fungal disease is the problem with your grass, then bringing in more grass without solving the problem will likely kill the new grass before it gets started (been there and done that repeatedly until I figured it out). Third issue with too much water is cutting off the air and killing the normal soil biology and setting the soil up to favor swamp grasses like nutsedge. Fourth issue is poor drought tolerance if, as it normally happens, you go on vacation and the sprinkler timer breaks. Just a couple days of drought can kill St Aug if the roots are not deep enough (from deeper and less frequent watering).

Root knot nematodes are not usually a problem with lawns where organic fertilizers are in major use. The organic approach is legal almost everywhere. There are certain fungi which entrap the root knot nematodes like a boa constrictor and consume them. Planting Elbon rye grass is the traditional method used to kill root knot nematodes. I think that comes from the Farmer's Almanac and still is used. Of course if you wanted St Aug, then you need to do the other approach with organic fertilizer. If you have a healthy soil biology, then you will have enough of the beneficial fungi to keep the nematodes out. Organic fertilizers are needed to feed the soil biology and give you the proper populations of beneficial microbes.

If you are not mowing at your mower's highest setting, that can stress St Aug and cause problems. I mow every other week except in the spring when the grass is growing very fast.

What kind of insects are you spraying for? Again, a healthy soil fed with organic fertilizer usually has a balance of beneficial insects helping to keep the soil healthy. In fact one of the major classes of soil biology is microarthropods (microscopic insects). Repeated spraying with insecticide will eliminate that class of biology. That would be similar to removing all the birds from the Earth. People used to cooking with eggs or eating chicken would have to adapt.

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 1:45AM
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Before you pay for a resod job, you might want to back up the nematode diagnosis with this.

Here is a link that might be useful: nematode

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 2:18PM
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I understand the logic you use in your watering plan but every lawn care, fertilizer co, spray co, sod co, etc here in S. Florida recommends the watering schedule I mentioned. You see neighbors, and golf course sprinklers running on the type of schedules I mention. We have a sandy, loose soil that doesn't hold moisture. With bright sun and normal temps, the soil is bone dry in 2-3 days after watering. And the can test for sprinklers here was recommended to me to look for 1/4 min and 1/2 inch max per application. Not sure why it's so different than what you use.

I probably was cutting my grass too short, as you mentioned. Oddly enough, it's been fine in this yard for over 8 years cutting it that way, guess if finally got too stressed.

Not sure of the type of bugs my spray guys go for. Gotta admit I hire them and trust them to take care of that job. they spray for fungus and weeds too. A local pro co that generally does a good job. Used to do my own fertilizer too, but have them do this now also. I don't have a ton of time at home, so I use these guys to help me keep a nice lawn. I have about 15,000 sq ft of grass.

Interested in your organic approach. You have a couple sources of info that you use?

    Bookmark   June 14, 2014 at 8:33AM
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Weed cutter, thanks for the link, I'll look at that. It's from UF I think, and oddly enough the 'expert' I mentioned that looked at my yard was a pesticide salesman that was UF trained. Told me he could send me a dozen pics of similar lawns that were nematode infested. But, I'd like to be sure. Either way, my lawn's a mess now, and I need it back in shape soon.

    Bookmark   June 14, 2014 at 8:39AM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

Interested in your organic approach. You have a couple sources of info that you use?

As a matter of fact, I wrote the book on modern organic lawn care back about 10 years ago. Since then the approach has been adopted by most of the lawn care forums, gurus, and tens of thousands of organic oriented gardeners. I know it has been downloaded well over 100,000 times because of download counter information. Here's a link to the original posted at GardenWeb. Since then I have realized that corn meal is not the best material to use. Back then I was on a serious budget and a bag of corn meal was $3. Now I normally use alfalfa pellets at a rate of 20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. If I want to control brown patch or other fungal diseases, then I revert to corn meal at 20 pounds per 1,000.

A lot of people think organic fertilizers don't work. One reason for that is, before I wrote the book, the only organic approach was to use compost. Compost is a depleted material with very little nutrient value. You have to apply compost at 700 pounds per 1,000 square feet to get the same effect that you get from alfalfa pellets at 20 pounds per 1,000. Even organic zealots were unlikely to apply enough compost to keep their lawn looking good. With this new approach it became both easy and affordable to apply organics 4 or 5 times a year. Some people apply monthly. Why? Because you can...without fear of hurting anything.

Here is a picture posted here in this forum back in 2011 by mrmumbles.

mrmumbles had applied alfalfa pellets to that spot in mid May. The picture was taken in mid June. The turf was zoysia, but it works the same with all turf types.

Why else would you use organics? Because it really works in large scale. Morpheuspa has renovated with a blend of elite Kentucky bluegrass varieties for darker color. Morph applies both Milorganite and soybean meal about monthly. He is also a nut about soil testing and making his soil chemistry perfect. He also waters once a week in the summer. Here is a picture of his yard in Eastern PA (on the right as if you couldn't tell).

Granted he has elite KBG, but look! His is the only lawn that even looks alive. Picture was taken in July 2010.
On watering:
I honestly don't care what all your local experts say. I'm telling you what works in every situation around the country if not the world. "Deep and infrequent watering" is the collected wisdom of Internet lawn forums for the past 12 years. When people go to deep and infrequent watering, quite often that is all they needed to take their lawn to the next level of beauty. I read about local customs from all over the place. In SoCal they water the same as y'all do. In the midwest, when they seed, they cover the seed in straw. Elsewhere in the midwest it is common to set fire to their lawns in the spring prior to the grass emerging. Almost everywhere people will topdress their lawn with 1/4-inch of topsoil or sand every year. Why? Because it's done on golf courses. Well the golf courses are a completely different situation from the home owner surrounded by concrete. I have pictures of lawns that are 10 inches higher than the surrounding concrete simply due to decades of accumulated 1/4-inch topdressing. These local customs are bizarre in my opinion.

I came to the lawn forums because my lawn was in trouble. I was looking for the "best practices" in lawn care. It took several years, but I think I have found them. To summarize, deep and infrequent watering, mow at the mower's highest setting (with an exception for bermuda, centipede, and bentgrass), and fertilize regularly with organic fertilizer. It really is that simple. This no-hassle approach will minimize weeds and insect problems. There are many organic insect killers if you have the really damaging bugs (grubs, webworms, and chinch bugs are the only bad ones). Herbicides can be a slightly different story, but this is already way too long a sermon. Back to watering...

My soil is bone dry, the surface. The saving grace is the soil is fairly moist down 5 inches and below. When you spare the water the grass roots "learn" to go deep to get the moisture. So it doesn't matter that the soil is bone dry at the surface as long as the roots are down in the moisture zone.

Here is one last picture of St Augustine growing in the sand dunes at Port Aransas, TX.

There is no irrigation system at all on that side of the building. The St Aug in the curb strip has escaped into the sand dunes and is thriving at 32 inches high. Picture was taken in 2011 a full 30 years after the grass was installed. It has never been watered - not even one time. All it gets is Texas drought interspersed with the occasional thunderstorm (usually on Thanksgiving weekend just in time to mess up my vacation). It is on the north side of the condo so it gets shade most of the year, but not in the summer. The beach is about 700 yards away, so there is usually a mist in the air as long as the sea breeze is blowing.

The point is, if you wean your grass off the frequent water slowly, and water more deeply, then the roots will grow deeper and the yard can get away with watering every week to 10 days (or more).

    Bookmark   June 14, 2014 at 12:17PM
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Dchall, Ok, beginning to see that what I've been doing may not be the best. Grass was actually very nice for 7-8 yrs after sodding.....some weeds occasionally, but not much.

I'll try to add some pics of yard like you asked. First is big view of back yard, some green, some brown.

OK.......was gonna add several pics in one post like you did, but can't figure it out, so I'll post 4 pics in 4 separate posts, then make more comments. Sorry, not tech savvy enough on this forum I guess.

So, this is first pic post only.

    Bookmark   June 15, 2014 at 8:57PM
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This pic is closer view of brown area. Yard looked heavily thatched, brown, then died, then weeds took over.

Pic 2 of 4 posts.

    Bookmark   June 15, 2014 at 8:58PM
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3rd pic of 4 here. Closeup view of bad area.

    Bookmark   June 15, 2014 at 9:00PM
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4th of 4 pics. This is a brown area in back of yard that's a little different. Just brown dead grass. Some grass has come back with watering and rain.

    Bookmark   June 15, 2014 at 9:02PM
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Here's a pic of some of the decent grass in the yard.

So, trying to figure how to go on this. I have a timing problem in that an event is scheduled for Nov in my backyard, which is usually very nice. I'm ready to fire my spray/fertilizer guys and go with an organic approach, but can I get it back in shape by Nov?

If it's nematodes, can I get grass back w/o a full sod replace job by Nov? If not nematodes, can I do this by Nov?

    Bookmark   June 15, 2014 at 9:07PM
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Weed Cutter supplied a great link to getting soil tested for nematodes. Looks lengthy and maybe expensive.....I'll do this if necessary, but is there another option to check for nematodes and/or do I really need to get rid of them to get lawn back healthy?

    Bookmark   June 15, 2014 at 9:15PM
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Your pictures look like the typical Florida lawns I remember as a child. The brown areas in your lawn pictures look like they are high human traffic areas. In the places I lived in Florida you'd see that type of lawn where there were children and going to and from the home door when there were no sidewalks.

You and experts aren't going to fix that lawn by November.

That expert UF mentioned in that thread can guess nematodes as your lawn problem but he should diagnose it or give you a list of possibilities. He's liable to have people spending big wads of cash on unneeded regimens. I've known too many people that have fired 'lawn experts' with their magic vats of chemicals to solve your problems but made the lawn actually worse.

I found interesting using the corn meal as compost but stating compost is nutritionally depleted is false. As the compost heap breaks up the nutrients have migrated and been put to use. The corn meal has the benefit the lawn will be fed the entire contents of the corn meal but you are paying good money for that benefit. I'd buy course ground corn meal though. The corn meal's finer texture allows it to be broadcast as a organic compost much more easily than your typical compost heaps so I will use that on my lawn when needed. I would like to use ground peat moss as it's cheaper but I'd need to first grind it up from those big bales and broadcast it on the lawn without it blowing everywhere but the lawn. :-( My soil is highly alkaline and compacted.

The big difference between the health lawns and the un-healthy lawn in the pictures I see is that most people are cutting there grass too short in an attempt to reduce how much they need to mow the lawn. That's always been the most common lawn problem. Since I've raised the height of the lawn cut over at my mom's I actually have to mow the lawn less frequently although the added height in her back yard is allowing the moss to spread towards the front yard, however moss actually makes a nice lawn in winter.

This post was edited by AgroCoders on Tue, Jun 17, 14 at 15:22

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 3:12PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

Great pictures with perfect lighting. That was a fun project, huh! Now if we can bring your tech skills up so you can post multiple pix in one post! Gardenweb has a forum where you can practice uploading pictures. It should have the directions. Basically you have to know a few HTML coding tags.

The last picture shows the grass close enough where it is right on the edge of going south. There are a few fungal lesions on the green grass. I would back off on the watering and go directly to wherever you have to go to get come corn meal. If you can't find it after 3 or 4 calls, then go to the grocery store or restaurant supply. You should find it on the Hispanic foods aisle in 25-pound bags. There are two corn products in those bigger bags. One is ordinary corn flour. The other is a mix of flour and baking soda like Bisquick. Don't get that one. Read the label carefully or get someone to translate for you.

Compost is, by definition, depleted food stuffs. The microbes decompose the protein, carbohydrates, starches, vitamins, minerals, enzymes, and everything of immediate value. What is left over is the lignins and cellulose plus the last few species of microbes plus the undecomposed byproducts of the entire batch of microbes. It is these last few microbes and the undecomposed by products which have any remaining value. I'm not saying it is devoid of fertility. I'm saying is is relatively depleted requiring 700 pounds per 1,000 square feet to achieve something similar to 20 pounds per 1,000 of fresh grains. That makes the grains 35 times more efficient. And in my neighborhood it costs $70 per yard to get good compost delivered which is $70 per 1,000 square feet. Whereas grain fertilizers cost more like $5 per 1,000 square feet. Compost has a place but if you don't need it, don't waste your time and money on it.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 7:27PM
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dchall_san_antonio - I'm not arguing that un-composted corn meal isn't better than compost because that corn meal will compost it's nutrients directly where needed and is much easier to spread whereas typical compost you make or buy is not easy to spread and is depleted to a degree.

I'm just arguing compost still has much value - although as much as a mulch for flower and fruits as for the microbes and nutrients. Although I couldn't tell you if store bought compost has any microbial value at all.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 7:34PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

Good enough.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 7:50PM
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I did send off soil samples today to UF for nematode testing.

Whether it's nematodes or not, do you guys agree I'll not get lawn on shape by Nov without a resod job? I was hoping that with proper care and the summer growing season, I could get it back.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 8:04PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

If it is fungus, and you apply corn meal, you should be very optimistic by mid July. If it does respond to the corn meal, then it was a fungus. If it was a fungus, then resodding would have resulted in a brand new dead lawn in 2 weeks. You absolutely have to get rid of the disease before you can start over.

Here are two pictures of St Augustine. One of them is healthy (with onset of rain-induced chlorosis) and one has a serious fungal disease (both are pix of my lawn, by the way, at different times).

So that's what you're looking for. It should look perfect. If any part has those tell-tale spots on the blades, then you have fungal issues. Don't expect them to go away by themselves. Jump on the corn meal immediately and you might not ever notice a serious problem.

Nematodes in lawns is not a normal problem. In fact in all my years on lawn forums I think root knot nematodes have only been mentioned once before. If it turned out to be nematodes, I'd be real surprised.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 8:37PM
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Supposedly my spray guys spray for fungus.....what good are they then?

How do you apply your cornmeal? I have a basic Scott's spreader, perhaps I can work with it until I get levels right.

Could fungus have caused all my dead brown areas? Would meal applications on those areas bring the soil to healthy enough levels such that the floratam might spread back into them, or would I need to plug or resod the bigger brown areas at some point?

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 9:15PM
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Supposedly my spray guys spray for fungus.....what good are they then?

How do you apply your cornmeal? I have a basic Scott's spreader, perhaps I can work with it until I get levels right.

Could fungus have caused all my dead brown areas? Would meal applications on those areas bring the soil to healthy enough levels such that the floratam might spread back into them, or would I need to plug or resod the bigger brown areas at some point?

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 9:16PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

Spraying for fungus once the temps get above 85 is a mistake. Assuming your lawn people know that, then they are not actually spraying for fungus in late spring and during the summer.

Spraying for fungus is always a mistake in my book. Why? Because more than half of the beneficial microbial life in your soil is fungus. Those are the critters which keep your soil healthy. The fastest way to turn healthy soil into brick is to kill off the fungus. If you think your soil might have had repeated applications of chemical fungicide, you might consider a very light application of compost. Light application would be no more than 1 cubic yard per 1,000 square feet.

I apply corn meal by hand. When I had a spreader I used that. It tends to absorb humidity and clump in the hopper, so you have to bounce the spreader around. After a few years it breaks.

Yes the corn meal will restore all the dead looking areas - unless it is dead from drying out. If that is the case, then it will all have to regrow from the edges. That can happen fast. I now have about 3,000 more square feet of grass than I had when I bought this house. Before the grass was only in the irrigated areas. I don't know what happened but I now have 2,000 square feet of new grass in the unirrigated areas. Today I am watering the edge of the new grass to encourage the spread further out into the unirrigated areas. Irrigated means I have an underground system. However, I never use it. I prefer my oscillator sprinklers. The grass has sent runners about 10 feet out without any irrigation so far this year, so I don't want to lose them.

Fungus could easily have killed all that grass. With your watering regimen I'm surprised any of it is alive regardless of whether you had nematodes. If you want faster response, you could put a few pieces of Floratam in the middle once you are certain there is no disease. Those will have to be watering 3x per day to keep them going until the roots knit into the underlying sand. If you just let the grass fill, you don't have to go to that trouble. What I like to do is drop some corn meal or corn gluten meal along each St Aug runner to beef up the soil microbes right there where it's needed.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 9:41PM
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I hear of all these fungus and all these sprays and for the most part you are at the mercy of the rain and humidity.

Now having lived in both Texas and Florida I can tell you you are more likely to have fungal problems in Florida than dchall in Texas.

If you look at his healthy and unhealthy grass look at how thick it is. Liable to be thatch underneath if dchall doesn't de-thatch his lawn. As I've only lived in Florida as a child and never maintained a lawn when I lived in Texas I can only speak as one that has walked on these lawns barefoot and observed them. dchall I hope will chime in whether he regularly needs to or has de-thatched his lawn.

Fungus growing is typical of enviroments that are rotting. thatch is rotting. Too humidity and rain will then spread the fungus that should only be rotting the damp thatch underneath. Remove to much thatch and you open spaces for weeds to work there way into your lawn.

There is a balance there and dchall seems to have it right for these southern style grasses. I'd listen to him but you'll have to make adjustments for more humidity, rain, and a sandier soil. San Antonio is rather dry and it'd almost take over-watering to produce the fungus infected grass shows in that picture.

If you do water, fertilize, and herbicide your grass by all means stop. Do the corn meal as dchall recommends but don't go overboard. Florida is like Kentucky much limestone so the acidification of the soil via cornmeal composting should help. I could see through the to the soil in your pictures and you have better soil than most of Florida already. I can remember it raining so hard in Orlando as a child I promise you I could not see my hand held directly in front of my face. You don't need to water unless there is a drought in which case they probably won't let you.

I suggest you buy plugs and seeds and de-thatch your lawn and plant the plugs and seeds and by November it should look good if the weather co-operates.

I'll leave dchall to recommend the right height for mowing St Augustine as he actually mow St Augustine. Don't be tempted into scalping your grass like most people do. That means you'll need to lightly de-thatch yearly or biannually.

In my advise I defer to dchall that has St Augustine grass right now but if he would post an annual care regimen for his lawn or a link to it you can get your St Augustine straightened out.

Here is a link to a web page that says thatching is not a problem but you'll notice he says he both scalps his lawn in the spring while bagging the debris and aerates his lawn so little wonder thatch doesn't accumulate. He sounds silly saying you don't need to thatch when that is in fact what he is doing be scalping in the spring with a bagger:

For your lawn looking at the pictures again, I see heavy thatching and no evidence of fungal diseases. I see this as a symptom of 'lawn care experts' eager to do things the lazy way with chemicals ands no elbow grease.

I would see if you can find a landscape architect and knows a thing or too and see how much it'll take to fix your lawn. I needs a good de-thatching and reseeding in my opinion and lush grass by November is asking a lot unless you get someone in their that really knows what they are doing and will do it. I know raking the thatch out of your lawn and re-seeding doesn't sound 'expensive impressive' but it is actually hard word that a high school drop out that mowed his parents lawns would recognize and could do.


Bottom line:

a) you mentioned laying out sod and if you can afford that and want nice grass by November you should pay for it because I've only seen healthy St Augustine that's been walked on too much and fertilized too much. Very few weeds in your pictures. Your new St Augustine will fail in the same way eventually though if it's a heavy traffic area and ten years or more of grass clippings accumulate as a consequence of the fungicides the lawn company sprays stopping the natural decomposition of the grass clipping.

b) Hiring people to de-thatch, seed and plug your current lawn. This seems like it would be cheaper but it's liable to stir up weed seeds and is much more labor intensive than rolling out new sod over the old.

c) You might want to consider a formal path through high traffic areas allowing that your problem looks more to be an example of why mindless killing funguses is a bad ideal. That think layer of brown grass should be there, it's almost like a gooey brown sludge from the pictures. And I'm pointing the finger at the expert lawn services here not you.

It looks like you should raise the level on your lawn mower a notch or two too.

Consult with a landscaper not a lawn service. You'd be better learning what St Augustine needs yourself and hiring high school students to do the work.

Well I've ran my month long enough. Get an expert local to you that is not in the service of a lawn care company or anyone associated with selling chemicals for lawn care or sod and have an evaluation.

If your local high schools have the Future Farmers of America (FFA) call the school principal and ask for a referral. Maybe your lawn can be the start of field training for the FFA students.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 10:20PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

Lawn pictures can be deceptive. The grass in my first picture, the nicer looking grass, was nothing but runners in bare soil about 2 months prior to the photo. It had been decimated by disease the previous summer and I did not do anything to it. Then it did not come out in the spring so I hit it with corn meal. So there is no thatch in that one.

The second one is more dense. That grass gets half day sun. The grass in the upper pic never gets direct sunlight.. It's in the middle of the canopy of a huge oak tree. But the second picture is simply more dense. It's not thatchy.

The fastest way to renovate a St Augustine lawn is to use a dethatcher on it. Since it spreads by runners on top of the soil, if you run a dethatcher over it, it will slice those up and remove them from the ground, thus killing out the entire lawn. So St Aug is never dethatched in the traditional manner.

St Augustine is pretty easy to care for. Here is a basic plan.

Water deeply once if the temps are in the 90s.
Mulch mow at your mower's highest setting if the grass is growing fast.

Water deeply once if the temps are in the 80s.
Mulch mow if your grass is growing more normal

Enjoy the lawn

Fertilize with an organic fertilizer like alfalfa pellets or meal

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 3:01AM
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Agrocoders and Dchall, thanks for your great input. Guess I'll wait on the nematode analysis, results should be any day now.

You guys/gals? seemed to disagree that my pic showed fungus, not sure if that's an issue I need to deal with. But putting corn meal out now seems to be a way to start the recovery.

I do have tons of weeds like the ones in my 3rd pic of 4. One yard guy said I could pull them up but they'd leave 1000s of seeds behind, so he recommended the resod job. Seems that if there are no nematodes and I pull the weeds out that if I can get the Floratam to start running back into that area (it already has started), it'll grow and kill out the weeds. You guys agree?

Guess I am worried about bugs. With woods all around my property I always assumed the spraying kept the pests from the grass, and therefore, away from the house. We have little problem with ants, roaches, spiders, etc, getting to the house. When we do, I just do a house spraying with a Home Depot home sprayer.

The FFA idea isn't bad, except 'growth' has taken most of the farm and ranch land, and the FFA from schools. We built here surrounded by woods and farm land, now we're surrounded by gated communities and roads.

    Bookmark   June 23, 2014 at 8:08AM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

3rd pic of 4 is spurge. Yes they leave 1,000s of seeds but if you water correctly, they will never sprout. And if your grass is tall enough, and Mother Nature decides to water incorrectly for you, then the tall grass will keep the new spurge seedlings from taking root.

Ants, roaches, and spiders? Welcome to South Florida! There are several predatory animals that live around your garden. Once you start a fully organic fertilizer program, they will all return for you. Those animals are birds, toads, lizards, geckos, and wasps (yes, wasps are beneficial predators). Toads, geckos, lizards, and wasps will come by themselves. So will birds but they come faster if you put out a bird bath, bird feeder, or bird house.

A word about wasps: Paper wasps, those that live in the paper nests under your eaves, feed caterpillars to their young. Those nests are custom made to place a paralyzed caterpillar into. Mud dauber wasps do the same thing but with spiders. Mud daubers generally live in dark places where there is a supply of black widow and other spiders. Every mud dauber nest you see means that many fewer spiders. Mud daubers are the most docile of the stinging wasps. You can do almost anything to them and they won't sting you. The very best approach to wasps is to lose your innate instinct to swat at them and wave your arms around. If you can remain perfectly calm, so will they. I have pictures of paper wasps where I was almost touching the wasps with the camera. Once they learn you are not aggressive, they will leave you completely along. I accidentally knocked two of them off the nest once. They went into an aggressive pose but did not attack. I remained calm as one flew into my forehead, landed on my glasses, and flew back to the aggressive stance. 5 seconds later it was all over and they were back on the nest. Yes, everyone thinks I'm crazy, but wasps are not a pest in the garden.

Oh, and another tip from a local bee keeper, never spray bees with wasp spray. That seems to make them 100 times more aggressive than you thought possible.

    Bookmark   June 24, 2014 at 9:05PM
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We've been in FL most of our lives, used to bugs and stuff, no biggee. Don't like them in the house, but see them. Geckos in the house no biggee, but kids and wife don't want to see the other crawlies inside. Yard and area have plenty of wildlife....seen bears, coyote, bobcat, possum, and everything smaller. Tons of birds, including the awesome big osprey, kites, hawks, owls, and all the little stuff they feed on.

We have tons of lizards, geckos, bees and wasps, even black widows for them to eat, so our spraying is obviously not wiping out the habitat. But, I'll go off it if I can get the yard nice w/o spraying chemicals.

Weed is prostrate spurge as you mentioned, thanks for the ID. Guess I can pull it, corn meal the yard, water, and floratam should take the area back.

So, just to be clear, you think if it's not nematodes, the corn meal, pull weeds, and water should take care of problem?

If it's nematodes, another approach?

Looks like from what you and Agrocoders see, the resod probably isn't necessary to get the yard back, even by early Nov?

Thanks again for all your input.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 8:05AM
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Checked on corn meal locally, none nearby I can find. Cracked corn is available, and alfalfa pellets at $17/50 lbs. I have almost 15,000' of grass, so about $255 per application. Corn is $13/50 lbs.

Started pulling the prostrate spurge by hand, lots of it out there, and some other weeds.

Plan is to get alfalfa pellets, spread them, especially around floratam runners by edges of bad areas, water, and hope to see progress. If not, I'll plug or lay some sod pieces.

Still not what to do if the nematode test shows I do have them.

Found some nasty white spots on some grass (fungus maybe?), took a couple pics. I'll post them, but still haven't figured out how to put 2 pics in post. Went to test forum, but it's not addressed. So, I'll post the 2nd pic in follow on post.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 4:58PM
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2nd pic of white spots (fungus?)

These spots are in several areas of the lawn unfortunately.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 4:59PM
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Nothing you can do as a homeowner to control nematodes that I know of. If they are at damaging levels the best long term option is to change turf variety to something that is resistant (not what you wanted to hear). Just hang loose and wait for the report. I have a suspicion nematodes will not be the problem but this is just my guess.

Report will look something like this:

Send Results to Grower by:
Send Results to Pest CO by:
Consultant / Pest Control Company
Send To:
Phone: Fax:
Check #:
DateCollected: 10/03/2011
Crop: Zoysia Empire
Age: 3 yrs
Previous: St. Augustine Next:
Sample Type: Diagnosis Situation: Residential
Symptoms: stunted, decline
Sample Source: Lawn
Soil: Sand
Area: 3500 sq ft
Dr. William T. Crow
Nematode Assay Laboratory
PO Box 110620, Bldg. 970 - University of Florida
Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 (352) 273-3941
DateDone: 06/10/2011
Publication: Home Lawns (
vendredi 7 octobre 2011 Page 1 of 2
Sample ID From: 201102430 To: 201102431
Sample ID Crop
(lab #)
Grower ID
NO. /
100 cc
Name NO. / 10
201102430 Front Yard Zoysia Empire
Sheathoid Hemicriconemoides 10
Ring Mesocriconema 3
Stubby Root Trichodorus 2
Spiral Helicotylenchus 19
Lance Hoplolaimus 14
Diagnosis: Nematodes are below levels believed to be damaging to the crop indicated.
201102431 Back Yard Zoysia Empire
Dagger Xiphinema 7
Sheathoid Hemicriconemoides 44
Ring Mesocriconema 36
Stubby Root Trichodorus 6
Spiral Helicotylenchus 18
Lance Hoplolaimus 73
Root-Knot Meloidogyne 44
This crop is at moderate risk of damage caused by the nematodes indicated. Damage may occur if
nematode populations increase or if the crop is under stress conditions.
vendredi 7 octobre 2011 Page 2 of 2

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 9:12PM
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Your last pictures look like "Slime Mold" but I can't be sure.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 9:29PM
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Got nematode test results from UF, diagnosis is as weed-cutter predicted.

I assume this means that nematodes didn't kill this area, and that they are no that what it means?

Meloidogyne Root-Knot 7
Belonolaimus Sting 2
Hoplolaimus Lance 16
Trichodorus Stubby Root 33
Xiphinema Dagger 3
Diagnosis: Nematodes are below levels believed to be damaging to the crop indicated.
Based on information above and assay results, the Diagnosis and Comments apply to this sample:

I'm still baffled by what killed such a large area. I pulled up tons of weeds that had grown in where grass had been, some bugs running around under the dead thatch area mostly. Collected some to try to ID them.

I understand it might have been stress and watering as has been mentioned, but I'm beginning to wonder if other issues exist.

Anyway, no nematode threat I assume (as some of you expected), so I'll clear out the weeds, put some alfalfa pellets down, water and hope. Maybe plug or sprig, or lay sod pieces.

I'll take more pics and update as I go.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2014 at 7:13PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

Yes, water has been mentioned and mentioned and mentioned and mentioned and mentioned and mentioned and mentioned and mentioned and mentioned and mentioned and mentioned. These latest pictures are more fungal attacks. You need to back off on watering and get some corn of some kind as soon as you can get it. The second picture looks like slime mold, which is ugly as sin, but completely harmless to the grass. It gets a lot uglier than that picture. That is the early stage. It will bloom into large black wads of goo that will completely disappear without a trace.

Here is an image explaining how to post multiple images. The reason I made this an image is that posting HTML coding changes the way the current website works. I can make it work using still more HTML coding, but posting the picture is so much easier.

Once you get the hang of it, it is really easy.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2014 at 8:17PM
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Glad it's not the little worms. In my mind that leaves 3 most probable possibilities. Could be your spray guys used too hot a mixture of weed control, I don't know a way of verifying that. Could have been a fungus, after this much time I don't know how to check for that (dead grass all looks alike to me). Lastly is the bugs, which I'd check for.

All searches should be made not in the dead spots but at the margin of the sick to good grass areas. For grubs use a shovel to pull out a hunk of earth down to about 8", bust it apart and look for those little devils. Do this in 3-4 maybe 5 places. If you find a couple the grass can tolerate those, more than that may be a problem.

For the chinch bug and sod webworm you can use a soap flush in a few spots. Mix up a bucket of water with a half cup of detergent (dish or laundry) and pour it over a 3'X3' area. Wait 5 minutes to see what comes running out. Sod webworm are seasonal where I live, but a pretty good sign of them are moths flying around when you are out in the yard. They are also known as lawn moths, which are the adult worms.

I'm not an organic guy, but with either method it helps to know what is going on so you don't waste time & money treating something that is not the problem.

Raising the height of the mower blade is a good idea. I don't disagree with your watering schedule either if that's what it takes, some of this Florida sand just drains and will not hold water. I will suggest you keep a keen eye on the turf when you increase the fertilizer inputs as bugs and fungus love the young/ tender/ quickly growing stuff.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2014 at 10:00PM
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Bad news is that, based on pics on internet, looks like I definitely have grubs, and what appears to be sod webworms, and probably chinch bugs. Another real small round beetle-looking bug there little bugger, hard to catch.

I never noticed the moths laying the webworm eggs, but I could've missed that.

Found these all as I was pulling the prostate sedge weeds up. Bugs were under dead thatched area and weeds.

I'm gonna do the soap test in several parts of the yard to get more bugs up for ID.

So.......based on this, if these are my yard pests, I can't just sod, plug, or sprig back in these areas w/o getting rid of bugs first or they'll kill the grass.

Not sure if I can organically get this under control in time to get nice grass for Nov.

I'll try to get more bugs and try to take some pics of them to post. I'll see if I can take them somewhere local for ID too.

I did mow last time at highest setting on my John Deere old 525 mower.....seems to be about 3" or a little more after the cut.

    Bookmark   June 29, 2014 at 9:02AM
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Get a good ID on the bugs before you hit the panic button.

    Bookmark   June 30, 2014 at 11:36AM
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4th of July project, bug flush. Did the soap and water deal, worked like a champ. Bugs came running to the surface. I tested 5 3'x3' areas, 3 bad areas and 2 good areas.

I'll post a couple pics in 2 posts, haven't figured out posting to the cloud or dropbox to retrieve using html yet like Dchall showed.

What bugs do I have? I've spent a good bit of time on the net looking at pics and I'm not sure to be honest. I thought it was chinchbugs, but the bigger black ones don't have any markings on their back.....they're just black. They're the ones just above the dime by the caterpillar (army worm?). Tons and tons and tons of these black bugs in the bad areas of yard. Hardly any in good areas.

Based on net pics of chinchbugs, mine are different. Totally black, wings, skinny legs, not thicker like the southern chinch. I haven't found a pic of my bug on the net unfortunately.

Lots of earwig type of bugs came up too. Some smaller beetle-looking bugs (the 3 to the left of the nickel). The earwigs were the most abundant bug in the good areas of the yard, although overall, a lot fewer bugs in good areas.

The bug just below the penny was the only 1 like it, must have been lost.

When pulling weeds, I did find plenty of grubs, and some very small worms I think are sod webworms....none came out with the soap test.

First pic here is the big picture shot of the samples of bugs I took today. Tried better closeups, guess I don't have the camera for it.

    Bookmark   July 4, 2014 at 5:31PM
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2nd picture, a little closer.

If these pics are too bad to help ID, I'll try to find a better camera, or maybe Ipad does better? I have one for work.

What type of place could reliably ID the bugs if I take them to them? I don't trust the guy I had spraying (fired him).


    Bookmark   July 4, 2014 at 5:33PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

You're obviously not going to let this insect thing go. I hope you have let go of the idea that root knot nematodes were a problem. I cannot identify the bugs because nobody has posted anything like that before. I looked up chinch bugs and those guys are about 1/3 the size of your bugs above the dime.

If you want an organic product that will work in your soggy soil, there is a beneficial nematode that will kill many insects. I hate to suggest adding nematodes in your context but these are completely different animals. These nematodes carry an insect disease which kills the insects and grubs within 24 hours. They have no effect on plants or roots. Search the Internet for Guardian beneficial nematodes. They mail them from Colorado. They come on a little blue patch of sponge. You wring the nematodes out into a bucket of water and spray that water over wet grass/soil. Then water some more to be sure they are carried into the soil. Within a few minutes they will have infected all the insects they can find.

    Bookmark   July 5, 2014 at 9:55PM
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Well, my soil isn't soggy at any depth, in fact some grass shows dry stress.

If the bugs killed my grass, then it's important to know that and address that.

As I mentioned before, I'm addressing an immediate need to identify and fix the problem, hopefully to get decent grass by Nov. Then I plan to transition to a more organic approach.

I posted that the nematode report showed negative.

I've reduced watering plan, fired my spray guy, raised the mower deck full up, and asked several questions here which haven't been answered and I've been trying to find answers.

So, I'll look into the beneficial nematodes, but I'd still like to know if anyone can ID my bugs either good or bad for the yard. I've asked the UF guys too.

Some said fungus, some say not. Good bugs or bad bugs? Corn now or alfalfa pellets? Treat bugs/fungus or just the soil?

Yeah,I get that for the long haul get the soil healthy and grass follows...I will do,that. But, I need to address how I get some decent grass quick too.

I appreciate all the answers here so far as you've taken time on my problem. I need to keep moving fwd to get a better yard soon, so I might need to hire someone to come in and give me a positive ID on the issues and fixes.

    Bookmark   July 6, 2014 at 3:19PM
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Your county extension office may be able to give you an unbiased opinion on the bugs, or a garden center that does NOT do spray treatments. Pretty sure the earwigs are not a problem. I can't identify the beetle looking things.

    Bookmark   July 7, 2014 at 1:46PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

It's been over a month and you have not applied any corn meal yet? This could have been solved back in June.

What is your new watering schedule?

    Bookmark   July 9, 2014 at 10:43PM
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I mentioned a while back that there was no corn meal available, only cracked corn and alfalfa pellets. 26 June you did say put some kind of corn you think cracked corn is ok if meal isn't available and is better than the alfalfa pellets?

You seem to think my insects aren't a problem. For the long run I understand I just need to get soil and grass healthy, but for short run it seems I need to ID them and get rid of them if they're damaging pests if I'm to get good grass quick.

I took bug samples to a local UF agricultural office for ID.....waiting on that.

Water is off now, we're getting regular south FL summer rain now.

    Bookmark   July 10, 2014 at 7:23AM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

Cracked corn will work fine. There will be the rare whole kernel of corn which will take root, but the lawn mower kills it the first time.

Alfalfa pellet will have no effect on the problem area. I'm still thinking you started out with a fungal issue. That's what the corn is for. Alfalfa is a more general organic fertilizer. It's great for what it does but it doesn't do anything about disease.

You can apply the corn in the rain if you have to.

Please let us know what the UF Ag folks say about your insects. Many people are paranoid and want to kill every and, spider, and insect they see. I've never used insecticide on the lawn and have stopped all other uses of insecticide since I started with organics in 2002. Having said that I did put boric acid in my walls and under cabinets to kill roaches. But in the yard roaches are not a problem so I let them run wild. I see birds coming to get them every now and then.

    Bookmark   July 10, 2014 at 7:03PM
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UF ag rep looked at my insects. Said he saw beetles, earwigs are no problem.

Here's his reply:
"Most of the beetles are what we call "ground beetles" or family Carabidae.

There are many species in that family, some are seed feeders & some are predators or general scavengers.

You might find your here:";

I looked at his link and he is correct. I have tons of yard beetles for some reason, and earwigs.

Asked him about corn and alfalfa pellets. He wasn't fond of the idea, said they weren't nutrient-rich enough and would leave a moldy mess in the yard.

He agreed with the less frequent and more lengthy watering plan.

I asked if fungus and/or stress killed off the big dead areas, he said maybe and asked for more pics. Sent those to him.

And, back to my original thread question, does Seville thatch and kill itself off? He said no.

Anyway, I put down cracked corn yesterday to give it a try. Gonna pull more weeds and guess I'll try to plug/sod/sprig the bad areas now.

I'll add pics as improvement begins.


    Bookmark   July 11, 2014 at 8:59AM
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I wonder if the rep had any experience with corn/alfalfa leaving mold in the yard, or if he was just presuming that.

    Bookmark   July 11, 2014 at 2:53PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

I wonder, too, because there are literally tens of thousands of home owners using that approach.

    Bookmark   July 11, 2014 at 3:29PM
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I really don't know if he's seen the mold, or expects it.

What do you think of his 'not nutrient-rich' comment about the corn?

He wasn't pushing fertilizer or anything else, he just made the comment based on my question.

    Bookmark   July 11, 2014 at 5:40PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

Corn and coffee grounds are the least nutrient rich of all the grain type fertilizers. Still, three weeks after you apply you see significant greening and improved density. Corn gluten meal and soybean meal are the most nutrient rich. Everything else is in between.

    Bookmark   July 11, 2014 at 5:55PM
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guy - I'm just a "guy" like you coming in here to learn. I've taken an interest in following your case study and hope your lawn shapes up the way you want it to. I can sense your hesitance to believing things without seeing the hard data first, "just the facts, ma'am," if you will. I'm like that as well.

I'm gonna take a stab at your comment about low nutrient value in the corn meal. I may fail but let's see... My take on it is that chemical fertilizers bomb the grass with an overabundance of NPK, and then as these nutrients leach out of the soil, the lawn slowly starves until the next bombing to bring the color back. I think the corn meal serves its purpose (eliminating bad fungi, providing protein to the 'microherd' of organisms in your soil, but not really providing nitrogen) as part of a larger feeding and conditioning program that maintains healthy SOIL, not healthy grass. Application of other things like urea and milorganite at the proper time provide more N than the corn meal is intended to.

There is a lot to soil chemistry that I have yet to learn, but I think what I'm saying above is accurate. I'm sure one of the experts can confirm.


    Bookmark   July 11, 2014 at 9:33PM
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Thanks for your input. Yeah, I am just trying to find out what works w/o stabbing in the dark.

I'm trying methodically to find out what killed my grass, what might fix it, and then how to best get good grass back quickly and for the long haul.

Your take on the effect of fertilizer 'bombing' makes sense and is why quarterly fertilizing has been recommended by so many in my area I guess.

I do want to move to the 'healthy soil' approach and not just tend the grass. If organic will do it, that's great. If not, I'll flex. Unfortunately, opinions on both sides seem logical, although interest driven.

BTW, I did email the UF rep and ask if he'd actually seen mold from corn in a yard, or just expected it. Haven't heard back. He did ID the 'slime mold' in some pics, same ID 'weed cutter' correctly made. Said it posed no real problem.

I've gotten some great ideas from this forum so far and really appreciate everyone's input. My good areas already look better from the simple stuff recommended:
--raise mower blade
--change water schedule
--stopped commercial spraying
Other good ideas from folks here:
--soil sample test for nematodes
--UF rep help to ID insects
--corn and alfalfa options

Currently pulling prostrate spurge from yard by hand. Tons of if took over the bad areas. 6 hrs of weed pulling yesterday, and lots more to go. Plan is to plug or sod areas left bare.

Still have a large area that's just dead thatch. Some of the floratam is coming back in that area, but I'm wondering if I need to remove the thatch for it to grow well there. Some discussion earlier on dethatching....doesn't sound like it'd recover nicely in time for my Nov yard event.

Again, many thanks.


    Bookmark   July 12, 2014 at 8:48AM
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Dchall, thanks for the info on nutrient value.

Sounds like the cracked corn I put out is low on the nutrient scale.

Should I have put out the alfalfa pellets instead? You mentioned you thought corn would need to go out immediately to start seeing results. I have no meal available locally, so went with the cracked corn.

Had a good bit of rain on the corn already, just seems to sit there. Assume it'll dissolve and seep in eventually.

    Bookmark   July 12, 2014 at 8:42PM
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PKponder TX(7b)

The corn meal is to treat the fungus and alfalfa pellets are your nitrogen.

You may notice a slight smell with the first application but it will pass quickly. This happens when your soil microbes exist in low numbers from chemical lawn treatments and cannot process the organic matter quickly. Once these guys get their numbers built up with organic fertilizer like alfalfa pellets or soybean meal, there will be no smell, only healthy soil and lawn.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 8:26PM
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Pkponder, thanks for the info, makes sense.

So, guess I could throw down alfalfa pellets now too.

But......I can't find corn meal locally, just the cracked corn.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 8:36PM
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PKponder TX(7b)

go to the grocery store and get a large bag from the ethnic foods aisle or just a regular 5 lb bag from the baking aisle. Not 'self-rising', just the plain yellow corn meal, the cheapest is just fine. You will only use this for the dead or gray looking spots where the excess water is causing fungus. It does work by attracting trichoderma fungus that is harmless to your lawn and able to kill or starve out the fungi that cause brown patch or dollar spot. If you see no improvement in three weeks, you may have to step up to a chemical fungicide, but it is typically very effective. It does have some fertilizer effect as well, but not as much as alfalfa or soybean meal.

This post was edited by pkponder on Mon, Jul 14, 14 at 9:28

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 9:55PM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

pkponder, by the terms and conditions here, you are not allowed to link to other lawn forums. You can link to informational sites as long as they are not a forum format. I'm not the forum police although I feel like it today. Just getting into a discussion about that issue can be a problem here.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 3:23AM
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PKponder TX(7b)

My mistake and duly noted.

I actually thought that I had a TAMU article opened and linked, I must have gotten confused.

This post was edited by pkponder on Mon, Jul 14, 14 at 9:36

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 9:29AM
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Put in about 400' of new floratam sod July 24th. Applied cracked corn and watering daily for now. Most is in one big patch, placed some pieces separately in various bad places of yard. I'll update the pics occasionally to see progress.

Pic looking SW at big area and a few pieces:

Looking W at big area:

Looking NE at big area:

Pieces down in a high-traffic area, I've stopped the traffic:

    Bookmark   July 28, 2014 at 9:53AM
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Well crap, flunked the dchall school of picture pasting.

Here's a pic of the SW view I tried to post as first pic.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2014 at 9:58AM
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dchall_san_antonio(8 San Antonio)

You might have left out the quotes. They have to be there in the coding to post pictures.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2014 at 9:36PM
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This post was edited by guy777 on Tue, Jul 29, 14 at 8:07

    Bookmark   July 29, 2014 at 7:56AM
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I tried quotes, tried the symbols, tried copying it exactly the way in your example.

I created a dropbox acct and used google plus links as well for the same pics, no luck.

I got the little black box pic with x in it to post, but never got a pic to post using any link or variation of it.

When you post pics and Preview it, do the pics show up in the preview correctly or only in the final post?

    Bookmark   July 29, 2014 at 8:11AM
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guy: I use a photobucket account for storing pictures posted to this group. When you have a photo on photobucket, it automatically shows you several addresses for that photo along the right side of the screen. All you have to do is click on the address that starts with "

    Bookmark   July 30, 2014 at 12:18AM
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Many thanks! Opened a photobucket acct and it appears to work, so I'm gonna try to post my original msg with embedded pics.

It does have a different URL than Dropbox gives the pics.


    Bookmark   July 30, 2014 at 3:14PM
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Put in about 400' of new floratam sod July 24th. Applied cracked corn and watering daily for now. Most is in one big patch, placed some pieces separately in various bad places of yard. I'll update the pics occasionally to see progress.

Pic looking SW at big area and a few pieces:

Looking W at big area:

Looking NE at big area:

Pieces down in a high-traffic area, I've stopped the traffic:

Most of the bare areas are spots where we pulled weeds out, mostly prostrate spurge. Hopefully the floratam will spread rapidly.

    Bookmark   July 30, 2014 at 3:21PM
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