Traffic on GP

gandle(4 NE)January 13, 2011

Or lack of, I should say. Is everyone on facebook or why has the party been abandoned?

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I wonder about that too, George. I am on Facebook, but I like to post on the Party, would do more of it, but when responses are so sparse, I get discouraged.
Don't know what the answer is, IMO Facebook is more ephemeral, everything moves so fast, here we can talks about things at length and they don't disappear within a day or two.
I will say the ads have been annoying me.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 3:58PM
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With less people posting, there is less to talk about and the less there is to talk about, the less people are posting.
I am not on facebook and my family members/friends which are left get indivdual attention, unless it is a mass mailing like last week when my husband went to the hospital, which about 10 people needed to know.
Wished some of the posters from years go would come back and stirr up the pot.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 4:24PM
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Yes I miss weebus, sheila, andie and others. I guess I should post more often. My apologies. Steve in Baltimore County.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 4:48PM
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jazmynsmom(Z5 Madison-ish)

My computer has issues (browser crashing, hanging up etc...) and when I've been able to debug it long enough to attempt to surf, I've been having login issues. So I've only been able to access GP through my iPhone, which is difficult to read, and difficult to type on... hence my prolonged absence.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 5:39PM
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Not on face book or my space. Life issues keep me away.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 6:40PM
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I've been on the net for about 15-16 years or longer and the Gardenweb and particularly the GP was one of the first sites I found on the web. Lol, the Gardenweb and GP has lasted longer than some of the high powered's in the valley.
BTW, I see that myspace is history.

I don't know how to draw more people to the GP.

Anyway, the facebook issue has been discussed on GP in the past.

Here is a link that might be useful: Facebook after 40?

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 7:02PM
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tibs(5/6 OH)

I just don't seem to have anything to say. I think of things, then just don't want to post them, Don't know why. I check in about every day, comment once in awhile. I think I am in a non comunicative mode.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 7:21PM
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Lol, and sigh, Gardenweb rejected my post because I had posted a reply earlier and I've asked the question before. How are we going to have a conversation if we are rejected for posting? Sigh again.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 7:41PM
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My iPad works. An alternative to the putter.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 8:44PM
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I've wondered the same thing; it seems there are fewer and fewer folks posting. I wish some of the *old timers* would come back. The GP has always been my first choice of places to visit; I like the Kitchen Table, too, but ironically, sometimes there are so many posts, I get tired reading them! There should be a happy medium between too few and too many, somewhere, don't you think?

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 8:45PM
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My usual routine in the morning is:
Jonathan Cainer - British Astrologer who has a lot of common sense to share
NOAA weather - sometimes predictions are more or less as accurate as Jonathan's
The Garden Party
Other GW forums: Pets, KT, HT
Some News Daily's (Chronicle, Press Democrat, Ukiah Daily Journal
Since I am up at "half past dark" (DD Linda's opinion) and need a coffee infusion before the brain works well, I don't always post right then, but many times there is nothing to say later. I would expect the GW would be jumping because of the time difference, but nothing much is going on.
I really miss the exchanges.
HT is lively, but a nice (?) place to visit but I don't want to settle there for too long.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2011 at 11:34PM
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One of the reasons I like to try to keep quotes going. What were some of the other popular things we have done in the past? Michael had his late night insomniacs threads and there were story threads. So many here have above average intelligence and great imaginations. I miss the family atmosphere especially when cabin fever sets in.

The format here does let subjects stay for comment longer than face book and that allows deeper thoughtful responses over a longer period of time. The threads that would go the limit and some times carry over to a new one provided a lot of food for thought. Some even were dangerous and got some bad attention. Still kerfuffle can bring a different view too.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2011 at 12:32AM
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sweet_betsy No AL Z7

I visit here daily and have for about ten years mostly as a lurker. Having read some things on here that are just wonderful writing, I am sad to see the traffic almost at a standstill. How does one just stop coming here altogether? We miss you, Kathy Jane, MWoods, Calliope, Maryanne and Mary from New York. Come in for a visit.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2011 at 7:17AM
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I post all the time Sweet Betsy. I think the reason the GP has slowed down is that it isn't drawing any new posters. When thinking back to the "good ole days" we're talking well over 10 years ago and the lives and interests of people change.Back then we talked a lot about issues,not necessarily political,now it seems we talk a lot about ourselves. Very little about the GP annoys me but one thing that really flips my switch are people who never comment on the thread of another poster, ever,but pop in to go on and about their own lives and disappear until they show with another lengthy post about themselves.If you go back and look at posts that draw the most comments,it seems to be those that are by someone asking for advice,or just an issue that has come up and been tossed out. I'm like Tibs in that I read the posts but just can't force a response anymore to just be polite.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2011 at 9:03AM
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I am also on face book and have been influenced to do so by other groups including Garden Party. I was on classmates but they are a pay site and poorly managed with odd software. My free profile is still on there but hardly ever used. Many from there are on FB and many of the omes I know I met there and have nothing to do with the school I attended. There are also new acquaintances of friends of friends due to varied interests.

There is a computer forum that I belong to and a few friends from there are on FB. Then there is family and many of them I have not seen or even met. The local people of the town I live in are also a demographic there. The site has numerous ways to connect and reconnect and ways to control that.

They just came up with a new format for profile pages that is irksome and will take time to get the glitches out and actual interaction is quick and fleeting in many cases. Here is a stronger connection and more in depth conversation in my opinion. There throws the world at you and leaves you to sort it out.

I admit I have spent more time there and been a bit lax at posting here. My main computer died at the beginning of last summer and I only had an old laptop with limited processor power to work with. My main computer is now fixed and I am able to do more. I will make a conscious effort to post here a bit more, perhaps another lobotomy is in order.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2011 at 11:18AM
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"Very little about the GP annoys me but one thing that really flips my switch are people who never comment on the thread of another poster, ever,but pop in to go on and about their own lives and disappear until they show with another lengthy post about themselves."

??? I am completely puzzled. I have to say, I love you and respect you dearly, Marda, but I don't agree.

Looking at the current topics:
Pandora question from Lilo


Traffic on GP


Snow-lengthy (on my part with the pictures!). I thought with every state in the US, except 1, having snow, it related to everyone. Thank goodness others did jump in and remembered good times from childhood, and even expressed what was going on in their world. Some conversation and I was glad someone was talking about something, even if it was the "weather", and even felt a tinge of "the good ol' days".

A message regarding Don-lengthy about him, but everyone said thanks for telling us about you, and we meant it.

Thanks everyone!-from Anneliese. About her, but only everyone, so I don't see anything wrong with that. And I am glad for the update.


Chilly this AM-it's relevant, but about what is going on in his own world. No one, and I mean no one, wishes Gandle would post less, but more often.


Suzy's rambling posts inevitably have someone say, wow, amazing, I love what you wrote, and they are absolutely solely about her own little world. Jan's stories, totally her own world. Funny as all get out, but her own world. They don't comment on every other thread either. I don't think what they do is wrong. It isn't what is being posted. I'm actually on the other end of the spectrum, I'm slightly annoyed there are so few who do post, with many who never start a thread. I wish more people would jump in.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2011 at 11:31AM
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Of course, most of the time we tell of happenings in our world, hoping it's of interest to our fellow posters, and that they will comment, respond and perhaps add their own happenings in their world or similar stories or some such. Some threads went on for a long time, starting on one subject, frequently acquired a life of their own. I think that's what everyone means when they say "something is missing'
When one tells of a happening or tells a story - such as Gandle does - and gets a couple of follow-ups and then the thread dies, it's discouraging, one has the feeling "oh, I am boring"
Maybe it's time - at least for me - to start some threads and see where they are going.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2011 at 12:25PM
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I just checked over here after not looking at GP in months. When When I first joined GW, about 10 years ago, I hung out here for a while, but I felt as if I was intruding and I wandered off.
I suppose I have just admitted to being part of the problem!

    Bookmark   January 14, 2011 at 12:57PM
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Sorry we disagree Robin..would be kind of weird if we agreed on everything. LOL I look at the GP as a group of people I have known for years and care about what is going on their lives. I know that isn't the way everyone else feels though. We have people who pop on a couple of times a year to say hello and then tell us about everything going on their lives at the moment,without probably even knowing or caring that maybe someone has passed away or been very seriously hurt or ill,much less even asking how we are. I've had acquaintances who are the same me me and I've eliminated most of them from my life. I of course realize this is a public forum and everyone is welcome here,but there is no law that says I have to feel the same way about each and every one. It's enjoyable talking about an issue,like this one and look at all the posts its generated so far.This place would die in a minute if we didn't share our lives with each other,but I think you need a variety of subjects to keep a forum going for any real length of time with many posters posting on a single thread.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2011 at 1:11PM
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I posted last week about what was going on in my life, because I did not want to disappear from the GP without notice.
All of us sometimes get busy and posting is then not the first priority. I think the biggest problem with a small number of people is the lack of new topics.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2011 at 7:48PM
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I've also been wondering why there are such few posts here at the GP so I looked at the "hardware/software" issue. GW says they are upgrading from a very old system, and that may be why we are having problems.Please see link below.

I've found that I'm able to post from both my laptop and ipad. I think someone else posted a photo from their iphone. We have posted videos here at the GP, and according to the search, there are about 80 videos here on GP and more that five thousand videos posted on the entire site. So it seems that the GW is somewhat up to grade with some of the popular features.

Here is a link that might be useful: Message from GW

    Bookmark   January 14, 2011 at 7:55PM
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And then there are our own intruding lives -

We've been retired on the farm for 10 years, hubby's health
always overhanging most everything, but we traveled everywhere we wanted to to and then some, had our bucket list pretty well marked up..had begun to find the house and the yard a wee bit difficult to keep up with. Five stents and a triple bypass, insulin dependent, I just simply never really relaxed if he was not where I could check how he was.

On December 15, hubby fell on black ice that looked like a gentle rain fall, a really bad skull fracture, internal bleeding, he was in a coma for 3 weeks, has begun to wake up, seems able to communicate. At the local hospital he coded and was 'entubed' on a ventilator, on low oxygen for 29 minutes, and today though awake, seems
so weary and tired, mostly sleeps; Drs. not sure how much of him we will get back. He's off the ventilator, but still has a trache, and headed for rehab in a special program for brain injured. I have prayed for years that whatever happened in his future would be quick, that some of the terrible things that can happen to diabetics would not take him a slow piece at a time. If all of this was the answer to that prayer, I have hesitated to ask God for much else.

He's 67, could survive all of this and have a final heart attack any moment, he has a living will, but Drs. have been optimistic about recovery, though they have told me he will have 'deficits'. The day I went to tell them to turn the machine off because he never wanted to live that way, he opened his eyes.

My life is changing by the second..he's in a hospital almost 100 miles away, all who would offer to help are our age or older, driving no better for them then for me, but
I get there every 2 - 3 days, and grapple with all the mundane things we used to share by myself. The birds aren't getting fed, I don't risk driving in snow or ice,
I've settled down to a routine of little sleep at any one time, and trying to keep my meals sane and timely to stay
on track. What to do if he needs special equipment, wider doors for a wheel chair, a special shower, daily help, if we can't stay here, if he never comes home, can I hire help for him to be at home if he needs it, its all about a quality of life he can enjoy living.....round and round and round in my head.

So I'm here. I know even now this cannot be anything but a downer for everyone, but I needed to tell you how much your bright, happy voices about the most mundane or splendiferous topics mean - as close as a few keystrokes,
a world of grace and gentility and conversation and standards, and observations, life happening, of spring coming, of things looking forward, of crocus and broccoli, and Lilo's going to walk, and folks who have seen it all, survived it all, will survive it all...

thus I can too.

I just wanted all of you to know how much I appreciate you.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 8:24AM
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Shilty, Thank you for stopping in and letting us know what is happening in your lives. Having just had my wake up call to the delicateness of life I send all the good thoughts and vibes I can muster for both of you. Take care of your self and keep up the good fight for your hubby. Hope all works out well.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 10:00AM
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Shilty, I am sending you good thoughts and vibes and sunflowers for you and the DH. May the outcome be in the best interest of all concerned.
It is very good of you to share your problems, for one thing we just never know what effect we have when we babble on about out lives, the Internet is a marvel!

    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 10:25AM
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meldy_nva(z6b VA)

Oh, Shilty. How difficult everything has been for you! While you are dealing with monumental life-changing events (and doing so with courage and compassion), I'm dealing with minutiae that is of little importance yet time consuming (and doing so without much in the way of grace and less compassion). I do hope that everything improves in your life -- and that you can manage to keep in touch with GP.

As for travelling on GP, having the internet at home is one of the budget-cuts I took in order to retire when I did. Thus I use the local library's system [free] and am limited to a 30-minute session per day. I read fast, but type slowly so I don't post often.

I think it possible that GP is in a temporary state of being like a small neighborhood pub; everyone knows everyone and just drops in occasionally. The cycle will continue on and we'll get new neighbors eventually. I for one am looking forward to hearing their stories.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 12:27PM
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Oh Shilty, all the sunflowers to you. I completely understand how you are feeling and it's the mundane, every day things which get you down, trying to plan ahead, the what ifs and our own limitations. My candle is lit for you and your husband and all the others who are sick or caretakers.
We all need to talk to somebody once in a while, especially us older ones who have few family members or friends left or close by. I think that you can call on most of us for support when you need it. Take care of yourself.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 1:38PM
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Shilty, I'm aching for you as I read your post; our lives can change so quickly -- minute to minute -- as happenings of the past week have shown. You are displaying great strength and courage in an overwhelming series of events, and you'll keep on doing so, b/c "we do what we have to do". My thoughts and prayers are with you and your husband in the days and weeks ahead.


    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 1:46PM
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petaloid(SoCal 10a/24)

I will remind myself to post more often here on Garden Party, as I used to some time ago.

If more of us do that, it should become a bit more lively.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 2:19PM
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Just a nod to the thread title.

Making your way in the world today takes everything you've got.
Taking a break from all your worries, sure would help a lot.

Wouldn't you like to get away?

Sometimes you want to go

Where everybody knows your name,
and they're always glad you came.
You wanna be where you can see,
our troubles are all the same
You wanna be where everybody knows
Your name.

You wanna go where people know,
people are all the same,
You wanna go where everybody knows
your name.

Full Lyrics never actually aired

Making your way in the world today
Takes everything you've got;
Taking a break from all your worries
Sure would help a lot.
Wouldn't you like to get away?

All those night when you've got no lights,
The check is in the mail;
And your little angel
Hung the cat up by it's tail;
And your third fiance didn't show;

Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
You want to be where you can see,
Our troubles are all the same;
You want to be where everybody knows your name.

Roll out of bed, Mr. Coffee's dead;
The morning's looking bright;
And your shrink ran off to Europe,
And didn't even write;
And your husband wants to be a girl;

Be glad there's one place in the world
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
You want to go where people know,
People are all the same;
You want to go where everybody knows your name.

Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came...

Here is a link that might be useful: Where Everybody Knows Your Name-Gary Portnay (cheers theme song) [with lyrics]

    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 2:29PM
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gandle(4 NE)

Some prayers your way shilty. Hope things get beter soon.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 5:56PM
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Shilty,I'm so sorry life has tossed this awful thing at the both of you. You have to be stressed to the gills and putting one foot ahead of the other is probably a chore sometimes. I hope the best for your husband and that slowly things will be able to settle into some sort of normalcy for you. Please keep checking in with us now that we know what's going on.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 6:21PM
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Wow, there are a bunch of life issues in this thread.
I'm sending sunflowers to all of us at the GP.

Sun Flowers

    Bookmark   January 15, 2011 at 7:45PM
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sweet_betsy No AL Z7

Shilty, I'm sorry that you have so much on your plate right now. It's a great deal to handle all at once. Try to take it one day at a time--one problem at a time so that you don't become overwhelmed. Wish there was more that we could do to help. Godspeed in all that you have to do. Blessings on you and DH.

    Bookmark   January 16, 2011 at 12:55AM
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Good thread. I know I practically never stop by here any more, what with work, art, Facebook, family, just getting a little more creaky in general, but mostly because it's almost too quiet here. I came on board something like 15 years ago when GP was one of the few shows in town but now "social networking" is a boom industry and this little corner gets lost in the shuffle. I don't really foresee any new folks taking the time for GP, certainly not the younger ones busy on FB or YouTube.

It's also the case that the rules for this forum are pretty stringent in terms of what we can talk about, so any subject even tangentially related to politics or religion or social issues is frowned upon not only by the monitors but also internally by one poster or another firing a warning shot at any transgression, real or merely perceived. The world is a busy and complex place but so much of what's happening in it is off-limits here. I think that's why we talk so much about ourselves or kittens or who likes chocolate the most--we're on safer grounds.

I used to do quotes, too, and it's so generous of folks to put themselves out for this daily task. But that got tedious, at least for me, because there is never any context for them and too often they just fall with a thud.

So traffic has slowed for many reasons. For a long time, I regularly posted about films but I so rarely got any response from anyone that it didn't seem to be worth the effort. I only saw this thread because I posted a couple of film reviews in the past week. But I probably wouldn't have posted them at all if an old GP pal who I now communicate with almost entirely on Facebook hadn't poked me to do it (thanks, Andie).

Thanks, Gandle, for opening a thread that has had more traffic than the last hundred threads all put together, lol.

    Bookmark   January 16, 2011 at 7:45AM
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I don't get much of a chance any more to be on the computer.
I miss everyone and most especially the ones that I have shared my life and my home with.

Life has a way of picking us up out of our comfort zone, twirling us around then slamming us down in a new and foreign
place. Most of us have been there.

Shilty, I am so very sorry that you and your husband are in that place now. While our situation is different I know what it's like to have such a life changing event. It is a scary place to be.

I love this place called the GP. I love the people here and
while I have had the privilege of meeting and spending time with some, there are others that are just as dear to my heart though I have never laid eyes on them.

All of you have helped me grow in so many ways.
Your encouraging words have soothed my aching heart in times of trouble. Your jokes and stories have made me laugh out loud just when I needed to laugh. Your troubles have moved me to tears and made my heart hurt for you and your families. I have learned so much from your wisdom and thoughtful posts.

I truly hope that you and the GP are here for a long time to come for I would be lost without you.

    Bookmark   January 16, 2011 at 1:55PM
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I'll confess to being one of those that don't post much anymore. We used to discuss a lot of different things, and then, there would be those that just had to argue a bit. And so, we got "Hot Topics" and the interesting discussions got fewer and fewer.

I think about many things that I would like answers to, and then, I think again. Would anyone except me think it interesting that "they" are getting serious about lowering the depth of our port river by six feet so that huge ships can get in? I doubt it would stir much interest. And then, what about "what do old saggy women do about bras? Or, "Do you ever quit worring about your children?" One of mine is talking about retiring next month. Of course, we could talk about grandchildren and football and more football, but I would just as soon not. But frankly, about all I do now is sit at the computer (it has the only chair that supports my blasted back correctly) If it weren't for the computers, I don't know what we would do.

Growing old ain't for sissies. And it sure doesn't make for interesting GP conversations.

    Bookmark   January 17, 2011 at 2:38AM
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I'm still around sporadically and check in once in a while to see what's up in the lives of my cyberfriends. active website is one where there are enough interesting discussions to keep folks 'tuning in' and enthused enough to want to participate. And yes, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's been quieter here in years past when there were only a few....literally...participants because of all the internal strife and it had nothing to do with paying for use. A few of us like myself and Marda posted just to keep the forum alive.

I'll probably always consider this my original internet home and it has been since you could the postings on every forum in less than an hour.

I suspect facebook and blogs and twitter do pull off a certain amount of audience. There is and has always been private groups within this forum and that's OK. Myself, I consider facebook a necessary evil to keep up with events of family and close friends because they have the assumption if it's posted there, it'll get back to you. Not necessarily true and speaks to the times.

Why I'm not here often has more to do with my life than the forum. I sincerely send my prayers to those on this forum facing serious problems and know my thoughts are with you. I thank God this is not the case with me. I am just in one of those life transitions where I am turning the page to another chapter and am spread thin both physically and mentally. I consider myself semi-retired from my business but it still requires a lot of my attention to put it to bed so to speak. My mother, for whom I did a lot of care-giving is passed away now almost four years an I am still dispersing her belongings and tending her property. I am still trying to do all the repairs to my old house...for the most part by myself. I have several geneolgy projects in the fire only I can finish and it needs done. And I have a wonderful new g'child whom I WILL take time to be a part of his life. That still leaves my gardens and fruit trees and animals to attend. I think some folks see me as one who isn't happy unless they're working at something for the sake of it, and that's not how it is. I have interests I'd love to pursue and places I'd love to go......but I still have to steal time to do things like that. The only difference is now I do, and let other stuff slide. Stuff I prolly shouldn't. So, every once in awhile I stop and get serious about catching up so I can relax a bit and actually enjoy it. That's where I am right now.

    Bookmark   January 17, 2011 at 10:46AM
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Is there someone out there that would like to say "Hi" to the group? No need to make a new post and no pressure to post in the future.

    Bookmark   January 17, 2011 at 7:30PM
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I was out of internet for a week and just got back on, to see this. Agree that it's thinner lately!

I log on about 3-4 times a week and come here first. Then on to Compost, Herbs, then on to HT, with a few forays into other GW places. I rarely read posts about pets, skim the quotes,(some great!), check in with those who in my experience are interesting reads - quite a few of you fall in that category. Always read Pidge's reviews, Endorphin's musings, and pretty much pop in and out of everyone's posts. I post only now and then. I came here 'cause I wanted to chat about gardening, and find like-minded folks who don't think a discussion about worms or dirt is odd. I maybe post a little more on HT, post more on composting as I have more questions. I feel like I would give a great deal to have coffee with many of you, snoop in your gardens and your bookshelves, would love to visit those who are feeling poorly and make you cake and tea, to give back some of the warmth that is given.
We are very connected and I'd like to keep it that way. Just like many old friends, we sometimes get a little boring, but I figure this is one of the more interesting groups of people I know, and I'll keep checking in.

    Bookmark   January 19, 2011 at 7:28AM
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Guilty of not posting.
Life is a house of hallways leading in circles.
Calls from the kids keep me on track of what's next.
My quackapractor makes getting up from a chair possible.

Prayers to all who hurt mentally and physically.

I live across the street from a nursing home and agnespuffin nailed it all in her post.

I go over often for another dying friend, for our churchs' turn to have a Sunday service and to visit Thelma. She's all bent over with arthritis, can barely lift a padded spoon to feed herself anymore.
She's black and she has red hair and wears jewelry and I love and respect her so much.
I love them all---not one sissy in the bunch.

I miss the hub-bub here, also, but Marda's right---times change.

Not a day goes by that I don't think of you guys---not one day!

Don, may you always be our resident Multicolored-Music-Blasting van driver!
Was it in Cukoo's Nest where Nicholson took the bunch out for a day of havoc?
Great ride!

    Bookmark   January 19, 2011 at 9:10AM
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Shilty, I don't think I have the words to express my sadness at this blow life has dealt you and your husband. It's that kind of thing that makes me wish I lived close, so I could be of practical help. You have my strong wishes and thoughts coming your way.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2011 at 1:00PM
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I have just now slowed down enough to stop and read. I saw the posts going up, but didn't know why. Shilty, I am so very sorry you're going through this. My thoughts are with you. I concur with everything Sheila said.

    Bookmark   January 21, 2011 at 10:43AM
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Bringing this thread up for a few reasons. First has any one heard from Shilty? Beyond that the gist of the whole thread leaves questions and some answers from a year ago. I was looking at past threads because of the question about Pinkie and got caught up reading so there it is, home sweet home.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2012 at 2:42PM
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Shilty posted last week, "looking for the past" (a candy bar question). But not an update. Maybe it can be posted here?

    Bookmark   February 21, 2012 at 9:56AM
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