For Chelone

Marian_2(Z6 ARKozarks)June 30, 2007

I am addressing this to you because I feel you will give me an honest answer, and since you have no e-mail address on your 'page' I am doing it this way.

I wish to continue posting on this forum, but feel that the sight of my name is offensive to some. I am wondering if I changed my posting name if it would make it more comfortable for others? Naturally I would not attempt to be annonymous, or conceal who I am, but I feel just seeing my name at the head of a thread or a post is a put-off for some.

I like sharing my 'important' happenings on a day by day forum, and this one is still the most 'comfortable' for me.

I still feel more of a connection here, albeit an uncomfortable one at the present.

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OK, Marian, YOU asked. Remember that!

You offended a lot of people with the whole knife/Mary thing. You really pissed me off, too! I was appalled, frankly. Ok, I've repeated how I felt about that whole thing. You're smart enough to have figured it out way back when... ;)

You REALLY need to apologize to the rest of the Idyll contingent. It's really that simple (and that complicated)! You pissed alot of people off and they're people who're wonderfully supportive and foregiving... and it's important that you step up to the plate and atone for blowing it and offending so many really kind people. I have every belief that a sincere apology will work wonders. Maybe I'm wrong, but you'll never know until you give it try.

I don't believe in perpetual punishment/banishment. But that's my perspective (perpetual punishment doesn't work with dogs) and others here may well feel differently. But there are also enough participants who routinely deal with toddlers so I figure my "dog" analogy will ring true with others. ;)

So, kiddo... there you have it. In "cold hard, black and white", I think you would do well to start with an apology to the many lovely, generous participants that have been really greatly offended by your lapse of judgement way back when. Look, Marian, I've done all the stupid crap that youth/alcohol/drugs can elicit... mercifully, I never hurt anyone or myself. You screwed up, BIG DEAL. No one died, and everyone will get over it.

Suck it up and make an sincere apology, willya?! (once you do it, the ball's in "their" court). And after you do that remember that we all have different "beliefs", but each and every one of us believe in kindness, respect, and good humor. Remember that, willya?!

(((my thoughts))))

    Bookmark   June 30, 2007 at 2:17PM
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Marian_2(Z6 ARKozarks) mistake! I was laboring under the delusion that the appologies needed to go both ways, and that I had already appologized more than once!!!!!
Thank you for your candor..........

BTW, I too was appalled at my wierd behavior, but I had surely hoped there would be more compassion.........and the understanding that all my appologies and explanations were sincere!

    Bookmark   June 30, 2007 at 4:09PM
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Sorry, Marian.

You screwed up. Big time. You hurt a lot of people's feelings. You have no reason to believe that you were, in any way shape or form, the injured party. YOU need to make the apology, not anyone else. Never forget that!

You never made an apology to Mary for your inexcusably rude behavior. Nor did you ever make one to the rest of the Idyll group. You may have THOUGHT you did, in a roundabout way, but that doesn't cut the mustard with me, Marian (or several others)! NO! a "proper" apology requires that you specify that for which you need to apologize, and you must include those people that your transgression has injured.

I'm a pretty easy-going person, Marian. But on this one, YOU have to step up to the plate and YOU HAVE TO be specific about how you offended so many. Sorry! you were absolutely "out of line" and you hurt a number of people. People who'd never been anything but supportive of you.

You're making excuses for inexcusably bad behavior. And I'm not "buyin' it". You are a big enough woman to accept that.

You need to accept responsibility for bein' a jerk and put your faith in the ability of such nice people to accept your SINCERE apology and move on.

You behaved abominably Marian. It's that simple. and the "cure" is equally simple!

    Bookmark   June 30, 2007 at 4:30PM
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woodyoak zone 5 Canada(5b)

It is interesting that Marian's behavior is seen as utterly reprehensible but there is seen to be nothing to apologize for in the harsh treatment and effective shunning that was meted out as punishment to her! It's funny - her periodic outbursts never bothered me, even when I triggered one (my quip on the Christian Stoner House name for example...) There was always something specific that triggered her reaction but, because of my own tendency to blow up, I always assumed that they were opportunities for her to vent other frustrations. A gentle 'hey, hey, calm down' or just ignoring it entirely might be a more effective route. While what she said at those times might have been in a vein that is alien to me (e.g. the religious references), it didn't ever make me want to cut her off from a place she clearly valued as a social outlet and a place where she could participate in a wider world that her rural mountain home. There was a lot of negativity and narrow mindedness exhibited by others as well during that incident that bothers me much more than Marian's because it was deliberate and prolonged long after one should have got over any explosion of irritation over the initial trigger point. I certainly remember Marian apologizing . I've lost the trust I had in the good faith of the Idylls and that is sad.

I think the Idylls lost a lot when they lost Marian because it showed that some at least, are not open to dealing with people with different values, different ways of dealing with things - even when that person shares a common interest (gardens) and values the group. Cranky, temperamental outbursts happen all around us - heaven help us if we can't deal with them politely and move on! A lot of that description applies to me as well - I'm as different, cranky and temperamental as they come! I valued the Idylls as a social outlet to talk to people from a wide variety of places and backgrounds and attitudes, all with a common interest in my passion - gardening. Marian feels the same. When the Idylls shunned Marian, they shunned me too, whether they intended to or not! And that hurt. There's not a great deal of difference between me and Marian, regardless of superficial differences of age, geographic location and religious beliefs (or not...) I have stayed in regular contact with Marian and feel very comfortable with her. If my life had taken a different path when I was young, I could very well have turned out much like her. So, in some ways, she's an alter-ego for me.

So I'm not sure where all this is going for me. I miss the Idylls but am not sure that I could participate fully again because I'd always be afraid that I could end up with the same treatment as Marian got - is getting... - and that would be very painful. So I remain ambivalent. I stayed mostly silent in the first round of this down-on -Marian and that shamed me because I did not feel that it was right and I should have said so! I fully intend to age (in the unlikely event that I reach Marian's age) into a cranky, opinionated so-and-so :-) Some would say I've already reached that point! So, yes Marian over-reacted way back when as an expression of the hurt she felt but she did apologize. I'm not sure why people don't think it was sincere. But there was a lot of other over-reacting going on too that was and is hurtful - to Marian, to me - and to all of you since it is a betrayal of your own better natures. What a shame that this group is so thrown off stride by the temperamental and different. Please remember your compassion....

    Bookmark   June 30, 2007 at 5:25PM
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I really don't know that my opinion matters here (or that I want to give it), but I'll bet that Idyll has plenty of room for Marian. I just assumed no one posted at the end of the last Idyll thread because it had reached 100.

I had no idea what had transpired. I had to go back and read the whole thread. I'm glad I didn't catch it the first time around - wish I hadn't reason to try to figure out what the heck you all were apologizing for.....

Marian, I'd let it go and move on. It was the last weeks of winter....who's on their best behaviour then? If you're feeling up to it, apologize, if you don't feel as though you owe one, don't.

Of course that's my attitude. I can't see facial expression or subtle gestures, so I feel it best to take everyone's posts with a grain of salt.

(who hopes that some sunshine has made your world a little brighter, Marian)

    Bookmark   June 30, 2007 at 6:35PM
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You make some very valid points, Woody. Points that I've thought about often and carefully in the past few months. And I very much miss Marian's participation, too, not too mention your own.

But it's impossible to simply gloss over the fact that so many people were were so hurt and offended. Or that an apology is in order. There was no apology as far as I could tell and I'm pretty "cool" about things like that; my "rope" is pretty long.

I'm sorry, an apology is in order to the those that were hurt and while I very much enjoy (an miss!) your participation, Marian, I feel it necessary to stand my ground on this one. I will enjoy your participation on different threads, but until you make an apology to Mary and so many others it will have to remain that way for me. Remember, you solicited my opinion and you've received it.

And it doesn't mean that I don't like you or that I don't miss your fun and insightful participation. :(

    Bookmark   June 30, 2007 at 7:44PM
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Marian_2(Z6 ARKozarks)

I am sorry, but Mary owes ME an apology for asking me a pointed question and then refusing to explain it!

And as I have said repeatedly...I was never mad at anyone, and I am still not mad at anyone of you! It may sound trite to many of you, but I do love you all.

I have reread the former threads,( more than once), and I DID apologize!!!!!( unless saying "I'm sorry" does not qualify as an apology!)

    Bookmark   June 30, 2007 at 7:56PM
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This isn't normal for me, because I'm a peacemaker, but you asked so here it goes. I think that this whole blowup was an accumulation of many comments made you over the last couple of years. I do know that some are offended by the whole Christmas thing. I know also that some have been offended by your comments about the fact that some of the Idylls enjoy the completely legal beverage of alcohol. Another thing is the religious jabs. I know that you have a strong faith, but you can be very self-righteous about it. I personnally could look over those comments, but I guess I didn't care for the scolding that the Idylls took because they gave me a little sympathy for a health issue and you didn't feel that we acknowleged enough your health and life issues. I recall many times that people asked how you were doing after you mentioned not feeling well. I have enough whining from people around me at work. I come to the Idylls for fun, friendship and garden talk. I am as compassionate as the next person when someone has shared a problem, but don't feel that I need to be stroking someone on a daily basis. Its fine to share issues that are bothering you, but it does work both ways also. I was upset about something that was going on with me and what compassion did you show me? You didn't have to say anything and that would have been fine with me, but to use me to scold the Idylls really burned me. I know that you have a more difficult life than many here, but I don't care for the attitude that you are so different and then you say your leaving. In the past all the Idylls would then say "no your not that much different and please stay" We are all different!

I recall times that all the Idylls including yourself have said that they are busy and don't have time to make individual comments and that's OK, but then when you don't comment, don't expect everyone to fall all over everything that you say either. That's just the way it works here you comment when you have time and on what interests you.

I like you Marian and certainly don't mind you on the Idylls, just quit with the finger pointing and the comments about behavior, talk etc. that you don't "approve" of. I don't like it at all when we lose an Idyll and think that everyone is important to the group. This is supposed to be fun!

I think that you could rejoin the group certainly, but I do think that you would be wise to watch what you say just a little bit more.


    Bookmark   July 1, 2007 at 8:46AM
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chloehoover(z6b VA)

My philosophizing for the day --

Webster's Dictionary says apology is "an admission of error or discourtesy accompanied by an expression of regret".

I find all too often in our society today we seem to think that an apology is due only if the other party hurt/involved apologizes as well. Which frankly to me, makes the original "apology" a conditional offering and means the original person really doesnt feel they owe anyone an apology without "strings" (i.e., the other person applogizing as well).

I have tried to stay out of making any negative comments one way or another to anyone here -- and I prefer to not take personal jabs at anyone -- like Michelle, I come to this place for gardening interests and knowledge, photos, and stay for the company, perhaps mention my mood or not - but I do not expect instant, or indepth responses - there are unfortunately times when days or weeks go by before I can stop by here again - but I always expect and know I will find friends w/ interests in plants, gardens, and other POSITIVE things to make our lives more cheerful. There are definitely "rules of engagement" here and we should try to abide by them.

I know that other people here have had their feelings about things or topics hurt unintentionally from time to time -- cyberspace has a lot of limitations. It would be a good and positive thing for everyone to set aside their NEGATIVE and hurt feelings.

Apology accepted, Marian. I hope others will feel that we can continue to move forward - as we have tried to do over the last number of months. Life is too short.

Let's enjoy GARDENS!!


    Bookmark   July 3, 2007 at 1:07PM
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gardenbug(Canada zone 5)

Cindy, thanks for thinking this through and expressing my thoughts. I know I have hurt other members of this forum. I certainly never intended to do any such thing. Things became too nasty and complex to even apologize at the time. I apologize now.
Onward. I am unable to dwell on the ugly stuff.

    Bookmark   July 3, 2007 at 5:06PM
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