please help very sick kio

loriquesMarch 22, 2011

hello, my son's favorite kio tried to committe suside or something.

i found him down the bank all dry and not breathing. i put him in the pond and went back and forth gently in the watter and he started to breath.

broght him in and in the tank he was on his back, a while latter he was swiming a bit, hitting the sides of the tank, turning some flips, but able to hold himself up for a very short time straight in the watter.

Now he is laying on the bottom on his side but still breathing.

Is there any hope for this poor little guy??

i have him coved up with a towel, put a very small amount of salt in the watter, and a small amount of kio clay.

thanks so much for any help at all, lori

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Doesn't sound so good, there is nothing else u can really do but hope it survives. Sounds like some predator got into your pond and grabbed your fish then took off when it saw u. Perhaps u should put a net over your pond.

    Bookmark   March 23, 2011 at 12:15AM
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Depending on where you are you maybe doing more harm then good. I would guess that the fish jumped out of the pond and could not get back in. They can stay out of water quite awhile with no harm depending on the size. I have seen fish that have laid out on concrete in the sun so long that the only way to get the stuck fish off the concrete was to wet them down with a hose and then put back into the pond. It was totally dried out with all kinds of flies all over the fish.That fish ended up being just fine. Unless you have the proper place setup inside usually the fish is better off in the pond.

    Bookmark   March 23, 2011 at 2:31PM
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that is what i think also, i put a net over the pond before leaving today.

i came home and he is still lying on the bottom on his side, breathing and trying to move his fins. he is very red, bloody like under the skin from his mouth to his tail. he is normally orange but this is more red looking like blood or bruise. he has one bad place on his bottom side between the two front fins, no puncture, just a real bruised dot.

is there anything that can be done to make him more comfterble. i'm so worried about him, but i don't want to give up on him. Is he suffering bad? i so hope not.

    Bookmark   March 23, 2011 at 2:35PM
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thanks mike, i'm worried because when i put him in for a few min last night ( when he was swimming better) he just went to the bottom on his side and the others we messing with him. i was worried so i took him back out.

i have an air stone in the tank i was worried about the movment of the watter so i took out the pump, it is kind of strong for the small tank.

did you see my newer post.

i live in sw virginia near the nc boarder.

what should i do. i thought of putting him in the other pond but it does not have a pump yet. just a very small 50 gallon pump keeping the watter from getting stagnit, and some frog eggs. ( new pump coming monday)

all of his stress coat has come off of course, even from his eyes.

did your fish ever turn upside down?? or lay on its side.

    Bookmark   March 23, 2011 at 2:46PM
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You don't want to keep moving the fish. It doesn't sound like the pond water is in the best of shape. So keep inside since he is there now. The salt level should be brought up to .3% which is a total of 2.5 lbs of salt per 100 gallons of water. Try to keep in a fairly dark area. Try not to check on him very often as all these things stress him more. If possible a another fish with him will help. Depending on how badly he hurt himself when he jumped out will determine how long or if he can recover. Don't try to feed him until he is feeling better. Keep the water as good as you can. It took the fish about 2 weeks until it was acting normal. I have also had a fish that jumped head first into the side of bridge and that fish laid on the bottom or could hardy try to swim for 4 months before it recovered enough to get around.

    Bookmark   March 23, 2011 at 4:09PM
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Thank you so much for your help. I have no idea how good or bad my watter is. this is the first winter the ponds have gone through. The big one with no real filter system has not fish in it. They are all in the deeper but smaller surface area pond. We still have had some freezing, but next week we will have the big pond up and running. This really is my first ponds and fish. I did not plan well prior to putting them in and i don't have the suplies i need on hand. ie. the new pump when the other broke, testing kits, medicine. I used all of it up during the fall. I wont have the $$ for my suplies untill monday. I will move him to the smaller pond if he makes it that long, and just put the commetts with him. Would malafix or prmafix help him?

thanks agin for all your help. i apreciate it so very much. I shared your information with my son and he seems to feel a bit better knowing there is hope. We will for sure leave him alone.

should i just use the air stone or should i put a very small pump in there ie. maybe 50 gph and adjustable flow. I have him in the conrner of the bed room, in a plasict storage tub that is about 1/2 the way full ( the standard storage tub size) . i want to try and give the best chance possible to recover.


    Bookmark   March 23, 2011 at 5:58PM
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I could be wrong but a couple of things in your last post raised some red flags. It sounds like your ponds are less then one year old but your pump broke? Do you mind if I ask what pump that you have? The other thing is that the fish is in a plastic storage tub. I assume that it is a small fish less then 10" and that the tub is fairly small. A couple of things that you need be aware of is that the fish is going to cause the small amount of water in the tub to go bad quickly. You are going to need to do water changes every couple of days even though you are not feeding him. Secondly make sure that the tub is covered or the fish will jump out. Make sure that when doing water changes that you dechor the new water. Do not try to move the fish outside again until the pond temp is at least 60 degrees.

    Bookmark   March 23, 2011 at 8:32PM
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you are so much help Mike..

yes the ponds are less than a year old. i got them up and running about half way through the summer.

The water is no where near 60 now, it is suppose to be below freezing for the next few nights.

the pump i had was bought off of ebay, they said it was brand new and that it was a pond pump. actually it was a sup pump and it lasted untill the first snow and freeze came. by that time we were moving the fish to the other deeper pond.

when i put in the big pond i was sure it was 4 ft deep to survive the winter, but i failed to take into account the unleavel land serface, so when we filled it up on the low side away from the bank was over flowing before the bank - watter fall side was filled. so when you raised the water level as far as it could go it was less than 3ft.

so we put in the deep small pond just for wintering them over. We have soil coming monday to fix this problem so next winter the koi will stay in the big pond of the winter..

my ponds were on a whim and i should have done a lot more research.
any how... the fish is about 6 or 8 inches.

my husband says the tub has about 10 gallons of watter in it. i can put in more if i need too. maybe about 5 more gallons will fit.

my husband refused to put his fish in the tub so i could have the aquarium for my kio. so we are stuck with the tub. a neighbor has a 50 gallon aquarium he is not using and i can get that one. do you think that would be better?

i'm keeping the towels over the tub, but it also has a folding from each side locking lid, so i keep that closed also.

i put the small pump in the tub, my husband read on line that he needs a lot of oxogen. so we put it catty corner in the corner with in intake on the plastic side, so the watter wont pull him over to it and hurt him more. we have it turned down real low so it does not disturb him to much.

agin i thank you for all of your help and knowledge. i called out vet here and she said it was suffering and i should freeze it to put him out of his missery. no help at all.

it really means a lot to me that you are helping..

shalom, lori

    Bookmark   March 23, 2011 at 11:19PM
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i just thought .. i have a preformed pond that i can bring in. it is 65 gallons. i can put it in the laundry room no problem. do you think this would be better for him.. i don't know why i never thought of it before.

we use well water, but i run some of the water from the pond into it if that might help him. i can put a cast net over the top of the preformed pond to keep him inside of it. it has a ledge in it, maybe i could put the pump there and it would not pull him from the bottom and into it..

what do you think??

oh my husband said the sup pump was a cyclone one. we are getting one of the out of pond pumps and filters, with the uv light. i think it is pond master. they have them at lowes home impovment. it has a warenty and i saw another lady who had one in her pond for two years now with no problems. i have learned many hard lessons with the ponds.. first and formost , don't buy from ebay.. the pump was 65.00. After it broke i contacted the seller and he said that the pump was not designed to run 24/7, even though the booklet said for pond use. I think that was refuring to emptying a pond. When we got it we were so happy because it was strong and it ran our huge water fall wonderfully. it has about 12 ft head, and is about 18 feet lond.. it comes from the top of our steep bank and down to the pond. that is why we were so concerned with stregth. we have done our research over the winter and i think the big one at lowes will do fine for us. i hope..

do you have any ideas on this??

shalom, lori

ps Shabbat is coming quickly this week; so i need to figure out what to do for night hawk before friday..

    Bookmark   March 23, 2011 at 11:30PM
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Fish don't feel pain like you and me. So the fish is not suffering like you or me would. The way I look at it is if there is a chance the fish will make it I will give it the chance to survive.
The 65 gallon preform would be far better just from the stand point of the volume of water. Fill it with the same water that you put in the tub. Aerate the water for at least 6 hours before moving the fish as long as the temperature is about the same.If you are going to put a pump in point the output of the pump toward the surface.

On your waterfall if you can give me a little more information I can tell you how the new pump will work. You said that it has 12 ft of head but head is determined by the amount of water being pumped so that can change. So my first question are you saying 12 ft head or 12 ft high? Where the water actually falls how wide is this fall? What size pipe do you have going from the pump to the waterfall? Does the pump sit in the pond or a skimmer? What is the brand and model number of the pump that you are looking at?

    Bookmark   March 24, 2011 at 10:12AM
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In an emergency situation you can always make a quarantine tank of of a plastic storage box, which conveniently come rated in gallons! Last time I did this I had to add a clamp between the long sides as the water pressure from some 20-30 gallons was spreading the plastic.

Don't forget the lid! As your fish recovers it may jump out again!

I also keep a spare filter of the type I use in my fish tank so I can use a filter pad from the tank in it that comes pre-loaded with yummy bacteria. Without bacteria you have to keep on top of frequent water changes.

I have hopes for your fish. The one time I had a new purchase koi jump from its quarantine bucket and took me nearly an hour to find where it scampered behind my tank. It showed very little signs of life (showing any was a surprise to me) and did swim for a while but died a few hours later.

    Bookmark   March 24, 2011 at 10:36AM
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Night Hawk is so happy in his new home. i have him inside the laudry room, very dark and quite. Inside the preformed pond. I filled it up last night and ran the pump in it all night. Mike, i just knew you would say that would better, so i got it ready while you slept :) and then when i got online.. yes, i did the right thing. But i just now moved him so it ran for over 6 hours.. :)

When i put Night Hawk in the pond he swam all around and when i put the net over the top he was sitting on the ledge right way up. YEAH.. i think his might be ok.

Thank you Erie for trying to help also. It was a storage plastic tub that Night Hawk was in. but i was real worried when i saw Mike say that i should change the watter so frequently. I thought this might stress Night Hawk out even more.

should i put some stress eze stuff in the pond with him?? i put in the salt and kio clay ( i don't know if the clay helps but i thought it might).

Mike, i will get the specs on the pump for you. About the water fall; it is 8-10 ft from the bottom of the pond to the top of the water fall (if you measure straight up in the air) the legnth of the watter fall is 12-13 ft. and it is 2 ft wide.

the pump just sits on the bottom, we don't have a skimmer. we keep the filter pads in the watter fall box thingey .. i don't know the proper name off the top of my head. we have 4 diffrent color pads in there. ( we are using the same system now on the other pond, but with a much smaller pump)

we don't want the watter to run to hard down it due to the splashing and watter loss. i reall need to rework the entire thing.

the pond my fish are in now is 4 ft deep 3 foot across (short way) and 5 ft across the long way. There is 9 kio, 3 commets, 6 shubukin, in the pond now. When i got the fish the idea was to have the 3 commets in the preformed pond 55 gallon, the koi were going to be in the large pond with the water fall and the shubukin in the deep pond. the bigest fish is a butterfly kio about 8 inches long tail and all.

When we had the problem with the large pond i realized we were going to have problems with the freezing weather. i thought maybe i would bring them in for the winter but i realized that the cold and hybernation state is good for the fish. so to the deep pond they all went for the winter.

it is suppose to be below 32 for the next few nights, and i don't have the pump for the big pond yet; but even then i'm worried to move them and have the watter freeze.. To fix the big pond i thought rather than take apart the liner that is sealed to the water fall liner and dig a deeper hole that i would be better to bring in the sand and raise the ground level to be even with the ground where the water fall ends. I have a bunch of extra liner on the side of the pond folded up under the rocks.

The cat fish that my husband put in the big pond is no longer living there , we took him to the spring house and put him in the pond there.

Before you mentioned that other fish will help him, should i bring in one of the small kio or commetts to stay with Night Hawk?

i will get the specs on the pump filter system and let you know asap..


    Bookmark   March 24, 2011 at 12:57PM
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I will still need the size of the piping going up to the waterfall box.
The salt in the water will be enough for him. It sounds like he maybe inside for a while. You will still need to do water changes even with the increased volume of water.
Koi are a schooling fish and will be under stress by themselves. So I would put another fish with him. It can be either a koi or a goldfish.

    Bookmark   March 24, 2011 at 8:15PM
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the tubing that i have now is 1/2 an inch, but the water fall box has adaptors for diffrent sizes. the 1/2 inch worked good last year.

i had another animal emergancy today and i had to take my dog to the vet, she was pooping blood. she will be ok the vet said with the meds; but the reson i bring it up is....

there was a male vet there ( never saw him before) i asked if they were good with aquatic pets and they aske what kind. so i told the story of night hawk. the male vet said when he worked at the zoo ( no idea which one) they would put the injured fish in an ice bath and keep them in hybernation. the male vet sugested that i put the preformed pond outside since it is still preaty cold.

do you have any thoughts on this. i don't want to keep stressing him with moves and such.. i have no idea if i should try or just let him stay inside.

thanks again, lori

    Bookmark   March 24, 2011 at 8:35PM
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The last thing I would want to do would be to change what this fish has gotten use to. The last thing he needs is more stress. I am not sure what fish they were treating at the zoo but I am sure they weren't koi. Somethings about koi is that at temperatures less then 55 degrees their immune system stops working. I think you are far better off doing what you are doing.

    Bookmark   March 24, 2011 at 9:39PM
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Agreed, the less you handle or move a fish the better they do (as much as I would like to pet some of them!). Try to be sneaky for a water change.

A few nights of cold weather should not be a problem as that will not make the pond freeze solid. You should have some air bubbling up, that keeps the oxygen levels high and lets out the bad gasses.

During the winter all I run is an air bubbler, no pump or filter and my fish come through fine.

By the way, swishing a fish back and fourth in the water as you did is something we fishermen call "walking the fish," something we do after catching a big fish to let it go. They are usually so tired and stressed after being reeled in they seem comatose, so we "walk" them till they start to swim again. Walking forced water over their gills and is the same effect as mouth to mouth on a person.

You probably saved its life doing that. Good move!

    Bookmark   March 25, 2011 at 3:59PM
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ademink(z5a-5b Indianapolis)

how is your fish?

(hi mike!!! :)

    Bookmark   March 27, 2011 at 4:16PM
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Hi Andrea,
It has been awhile since I have you here, how is everything going with you?

    Bookmark   March 27, 2011 at 4:36PM
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ademink(z5a-5b Indianapolis)

doing great, thanks!! :D

finally got that daggone BD installed last summer. is that ridiculous, or what? LOL

    Bookmark   March 27, 2011 at 11:05PM
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