Mister Lincoln and Oklahoma

onederwJanuary 15, 2013

I'm guessing this is a question for Kim, but this doesn't make sense to me. Both Mister Lincoln and Oklahoma were developed by Swim & Weeks. Both share the same parentage--Chrysler Imperial and Charles Mallerin. Both came out in 1964. I'm sure there's some botanical genetic reason why these are not the same rose, but for your average home rose grower, what's the difference? And why did the same breeder develop and then market two roses so similar at the same time? For those of us in southern California, does one have distinct advantages over the other?

Kay

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jktx55(8a TX)

Sorry I couldn't tell you why, however my Mister Lincoln has more fragrance then my Oklahoma.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2013 at 10:18AM
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seil zone 6b MI

I'm sure that Kim will have some great insights into the whys but I can explain the reason they don't have to be the same rose. With the exception of some species roses, that will grow true to variety from seed, no two seeds from any other type of rose contain the same genetic material in the same mix. Even if the seeds that grew these two beautiful classic HTs came from the same hip they would not be the same rose. Every seed contains it's own mix of genes and so each one is a new variety of it's own.

I had Mr Lincoln at one time and he was a lovely HT but he was probably virused and didn't come back one year. I have Oklahoma now and it's a beautiful deep red color but it's not the healthiest of roses. One of the biggest difference I can think of is that ML had longer, stronger stems. OK tends to have weak necks for me. I also think ML had a few less petals but better form than OK does.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2013 at 10:50AM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

The reason they aren't identical is the same reason you and your siblings are different despite sharing the same parents. The cross was made in the hopes of finding something good in a fragrant dark red that would combine the best of both parents. Seedlings were raised, many were tossed, but two looked promising, and were released into commerce. Considering the small chances of finding something worthy of introduction from each cross, it's rather remarkable that two appeared. And in France at around the same time, the same two parents were crossed in the other direction to give us 'Papa Meilland.' Why were they marketed at around the same time? Simple -- in the hopes that people would like them and buy them, and they did. If one became more suitable or popular than the other, well, at least they increased their chances by introducing both.

:-)

~Christopher

    Bookmark   January 15, 2013 at 11:45AM
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kittymoonbeam

I have all 3 brothers and they are all good for So. CA.

Papa M is amazingly rich in perfume but the slowest growing of all 3. The color is rich and velvety. My own root plant makes a tall, open shape with wide spaced leaves.

Oklahoma has been a compact rounded bush with rounder flowers of a good red with good fragrance. Repeat bloom has been very good on my own root plant.

Mr. Lincoln has never done as well for me as for others in So. CA. I don't know why. The plant itself is tall and has elegant red flowers in cool temps and pink-red color in warm temps. My Mr. L stops flowering in heat. The blooms are tall and elegant and fragrant on long stems.

I really like Chrysler Imperial. I like the fragrance and color and I think it has better repeat for me than the brothers do. The bush is a nice shape and not too tall.

It has been fun to grow these 4 roses. My 2 favorites are CI and Papa M. probably because of fragrance. My best red with the most flowers that stayed red no matter what has always been olympiad but that rose has no fragrance.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2013 at 1:04PM
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onederw

Thank you for your knowledgeable observations, kittymoonbeam. It's always fascinating to see how everyone's experiences differ. I couldn't get Papa M to do anything at all, and beside that he was a magnificently ugly plant. Mr. L, however, is hugely vigorous for me.
I know what you mean about Olympiad and staying true red. I love Ingrid Bergman for pretty much the same reason, but to me it always seemed, well, unfair -- out of character, as it were -- that a rose named after her wouldn't have the most wonderful, intoxicating fragrance.

Kay

    Bookmark   January 16, 2013 at 8:30AM
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the_bustopher z6 MO

I'm not sure where you are, but I can offer a few observations. First, one point of difference between Oklahoma and Mister Lincoln is that Oklahoma is usually a darker red. Another is that Mister Lincoln is more apt to have better show hybrid tea form than Oklahoma, but Papa Meilland trumps both of them. Papa Meilland usually does well here; Oklahoma is rather iffy in my garden, but sometimes it is quite attractive. I do not have Mister Lincoln now but have had it in the past. I have found it to be tricky to overwinter and have lost it. Mister Lincoln is more cylindrical in growth while the others are more bushy like Chrysler Imperial. All four of these roses smell quite good.

    Bookmark   January 17, 2013 at 4:33PM
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roseseek

Hi Kay, sorry to get to the party late! You've been given good information. Lincoln and Oklahoma are quite different, as has been stated. It all depends upon what density of 'red' you want as to which you'd probably enjoy more. Lincoln is a brighter red with more "blue" as it ages. Oklahoma is a deeper, more garnet red on not quite as large a plant. Lincoln can have a larger flower, sometimes overly large if fed too much, but both are decent red HTs for many SoCal (and similar) climates. It makes sense why they'd release both. Ollie Weeks loved red HTs and created some pretty neat ones for warmer, drier areas. Both of these are among some of his best. The cross was obviously a decent one, though nothing of better merit has been created from it since the mid sixties. Guess the planets aligned just right, or something. Kim

    Bookmark   January 17, 2013 at 4:41PM
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kittymoonbeam

Somebody here said get Papa from Palatine so I did. I had it growing very well on Palatine's multiflora roots in a 15 gallon can and it was a good bloomer. When it made roots of its own, it got put in the ground and hasn't looked back. Maybe the big Palatine roots gave it a good head start.

    Bookmark   January 17, 2013 at 6:00PM
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Molineux(6b)

I've grown Mister Lincoln, Oklahoma and Chrysler Imperial.

Of the three Mister Lincoln produced the best cut flowers and the color was the truest red, although it does "blue" with age like all fragrant reds. Personally I didn't mind the burgundy color of the mature bloom because it contrasted so nicely with the golden stamens in the center. I especially liked the velvety texture of the petals and the extremely long (and strong) stems. Kept well watered and feed it produced huge blossoms the size of a grown man's outstretched hand with near perfect flower form. It's faults included slow repeat bloom and an ugly, lanky shrub. Mister Lincoln was my late father's favorite rose.

Oklahoma's blooms were definitely darker, a deep smoldering red with purplish-black tones. The large blooms were more globular and the stems sometimes weren't strong enough to hold them erect. The bush had a nicer shape but the vigor wasn't as good. It did bloom more often but lacked the wow factor I look for in a red Hybrid Tea. I shovel pruned it.

Chrysler Imperial was by far the best garden rose of the three. Nicely shaped shrub, lush foliage (provided you sprayed for black spot), and reliable repeat bloom. The large blossoms were held erect on strong stems. It would have been just about perfect but the blossoms lacked the elegance of those on Mr. Lincoln. The color was a touch less vibrant (and velvety) and the flower form (although pretty darn good) not as perfect. I still kept it because it was much more reliable and still beautiful in its own right.

These roses were grown in a Tidewater Virginia garden (USDA zone 7b) where summers were hot & humid. All three roses had intensely strong (Damask) fragrances that were capable of inducing olfactory orgasms.

Hope this helped,

Patrick

    Bookmark   July 15, 2013 at 5:30PM
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