hortster(6a, southcentral KS)February 28, 2014

My question is - what are your opinions about the environmental effects of using non-native ornamental plants? This question was been keyed by a recent article read in a publication named Wild Ones (@wildones.org).

Basic premise: That the use of non-native plant material is really man's displacement of native ecosystems.

New term gaining traction: "Nativars."

Definition of the term by Wild Ones publication: "'Nativar' is one term for a cultivar of a native species. Like all cultivars, nativars are the result of artificial selections made by humans from the natural variation found in a species. Nativars are almost always propagated vegetatively to preserve their selected trait. This means they no longer participate in natural reproduction patterns (like, for instance, open pollination) that would maintain genetic diversity."

Their definition of "native":

"A native plant species is one that occurs naturally in a particular region, ecosystem and/or habitat and was present prior to European settlement."

The article quoted is lengthy. It is quoted here because to read the entire article one would have to subscribe to the publication. The intent of this thread is to get opinions and discussion in reference to this concept. The following is a brief portion of the entire article in their publication. It could be posted in many forums, but for now in only two.

Beginning: "Nativars: Where do they fit in?

What are the pros and cons of using nativars?

Nativars are selected and perpetuated for many alleged reasons: atypical colors or forms of flowers, compact size, insect or disease resistance, tolerance of certain challenging environmental conditions, and many other reasons � all of which, if true, may be valuable in themselves and for home gardeners.

However, there are a number of important concerns regarding the use of nativars.

The premise behind the use of nativars is to isolate a single genetic sliver from the diversity of the natural gene pool of a native species. Therefore, the use of nativars inherently excludes as much genetic diversity as possible, resulting in nursery stock that is almost always genetically identical to the original selection. The diversity of genes in straight native species gives species more flexibility (and adaptability) when confronting stress such as disease or climate change.

A small percentage of nativars in the nursery and landscape trades may not be a concern. However, the pervasive scale of mass-production, promotion and use of nativars is of concern to ecologists and environmentally-focused native plant professionals. The longer we rely on nativars - clones - that are not cross pollinating in natural populations to produce their offspring, the greater the risk that we are left with only diminished selections of native plants - the nativars instead of straight species."

The article continues at length.

Thoughts and comments?

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brandon7 TN_zone(7)

As well as the single post in the Trees forum, this post seems to also have been posted twice (with just different titles) in this (Shrubs) forum. I will link the Trees Forum post below to possibly minimize confusion.

Here is a link that might be useful: Trees Forum Post

    Bookmark   February 28, 2014 at 10:05PM
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brandon, your god complex is really showing (again). If horster makes multiple posts or titles them wrong, the moderators can fix it or horster can come back on and do it himself. Some of us avoid the Trees Forum, and only rarely come to Shrubs, so posting it here is not a faux pas like you apparently think it is. I realize that those whose aim is to re-order the world in their image can't resist meddling, but really...

Horster, one example I found of exactly that is the plain old Campsis radicans. My first one was a plant I dug growing wild on the Eastern Shore of Virginia. I worked down there and admired them, and when I bought land that could accommodate them, I dug some on a visit to VA.

After a few years, I saw some with huge blooms and lusted after them, so I actually paid for this weed. The blooms are nice, but I noticed that they were rarely visited by the Hummingbirds. With both strains (cultivated and wild) growing in proximity to each other, the birds were only rarely seen near the big flowered cultivar. I eventually decided to limit the number of Campsis vines and cleared the area where the cultivated ones grew. Maybe it was the particular cultivar I bought (1 gal. from a nursery), but I have wondered if sometimes things like nectar production gets the short shrift when breeders select for traits.

On a related note, I kept bees for many years. One year the man who farms my ground planted a race of double crop soybeans that made insane amounts of nectar. The bees filled the hives like it was spring. A nice light colored honey too. Walking near the field, you could hear the buzz. The plants were fuzzier than normal, and the leaves were really pointy, but i never asked the farmer exactly what he'd planted. It was the only year I ever saw something like that, but wish more soya were honey producers.

    Bookmark   March 1, 2014 at 9:05AM
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brandon7 TN_zone(7)

Dzitmoidonc, your super-hypocritical complex is really showing! On top of that, you must be fairly unfamiliar with how GardenWeb works. GardenWeb doesn't have moderators that come along and fix duplicate posts. Also, Horster didn't realize he had posted twice, or he wouldn't have done it! It can be an easy thing to do, and is not uncommon (mostly, probably, because of webpage cache). It's amazing that you know that some people may come here and not come to the trees forum, but overlook the possibility that they might want to see input from posters, in the Trees Forum, about this post. There's nothing "faux pas"-ish about posting in this forum, but there are obvious problems with your extremely hypocritical attempt to be a super-moderator when you apparently don't understand much of what you are talking about!

    Bookmark   March 1, 2014 at 1:56PM
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No, not hyper critical, just know you. You also don't have to lecture me about how it works, there are actual people who fix things if you e-mail them. I've been around since Spike set this up, and have watched you since then. Years go by, names change, but you remain the same know it all.

    Bookmark   March 1, 2014 at 2:25PM
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brandon7 TN_zone(7)

"No, not hyper critical..."

Apparently, that too!

"Years go by, names change..."

Not mine. I'm proud to have been around since 2004 and have never had to change my name! It would be very interesting to know what your previous screennames where! ....but I guess that will have to wait, unless it has something to do with "nativars".

    Bookmark   March 1, 2014 at 3:10PM
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Brandon, names changed when iVillage bought it and log ins were not possible. (I don't have to explain my whole history to you, because only in your mine do we need to do that.) In your mind, you ascribe bad intentions, but that is because in your mind there is one good guy (you), and the rest of the world which needs corralling, cajoling and put downs. I have watched as you drove several well spoken, knowledgeable people into silence. They only rarely posted after you savaged them. Your glee when they went silent was palpable, and your usual last post is triumphant. Go back and see. You will note that you have never let a post rest, never allowed that a difference of opinion might be reasonable.

You write that I am or want to be or whatever, a super moderator? Really? Isn't a "super-moderator" somebody who would come on here and explain how he can read the poster's mind ("... Horster didn't realize...), somebody who would shepherd the conversation along (" I will link the Trees Forum post below to possibly minimize confusion.") Sort of like you assume we are all dummies, ain't it.

You put words in my mouth, and tell me I don't know what I am talking about, which is a usual retort from you. I was around when GW came on line, I know how it works.

You are insulting when you claim some kind of divine knowledge of poster's intentions, my intentions, and in general assume you will fix what you perceive as problems. In short, you are verbose, graceless and carry around a superiority complex like some deity.

This post was edited by Dzitmoidonc on Sun, Mar 2, 14 at 12:07

    Bookmark   March 2, 2014 at 12:02PM
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brandon7 TN_zone(7)

"names changed when iVillage"

iVillage bought GardenWeb a long time before May of 2012, so I guess there were other problems with your account. A clue to your other ID maybe?

"only in your mine..."

English not your primary language, huh? Now that is definitely another clue!

"somebody who would come on here and explain how he can read the poster's mind..."

How about someone that had enough common sense to put two and two together? Fuzzy logic...yet another clue. I am pretty sure I know who I am dealing with now! This is almost exciting! ROFL

"Sort of like you assume we are all dummies"

Who's the dummy? I have a pretty good idea!

Now the real question...why does she have two different screennames?

    Bookmark   March 2, 2014 at 9:12PM
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brandon7 TN_zone(7)

Come to think of it, I guess it would be at least three different names (all with the same rather weird "logic"), now wouldn't it?

BTW, Hortster, sorry your thread seems to have been hijacked. Dzitmoidonc, aka super-moderator and at least a couple of other screennames, wants revenge. I am kind of getting a kick out of it (because I am 99.9% sure I know who she is, now), but I do wish she hadn't done this to your thread. I probably should ignore her, but have found it too intriguing so far. Maybe the answers you are getting in the Trees Forum will be enough for feedback...hopefully anyway.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2014 at 9:26PM
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brandon, you are so sure of yourself, you must be giddy. You have no clue, no clue at all. You are some kind of obsessed. My last post here, but I'm sure you will have last word. Reread all your posts and you'll see what I mean about being giddy with some kind of secret knowledge. Read your last post as a matter of fact. Glee and superiority without a friggin clue.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2014 at 9:35PM
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brandon7 TN_zone(7)

Now S_ _ _ _ _, I mean J _ _ _ _ _ _ _, I mean Dzitmoidonc, don't be a "swore looser". Can't we all (no matter how many usernames you really are) just get along?

BTW, your trumpet creeper example is an interesting example. If pollinators and/or predators (seed distributors) aren't as attracted to a "nativar", it would be less likely to potentially be a problem. There are soooo many pros and cons to weigh in trying to determine if if this problem (nativar impact) is likely to actually exist.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2014 at 10:47PM
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brandon, there has never been a J in any screen name or in my real name. Quit being obsessed with that. You have climbed out on a limb, are wrong as can be. Some on here know me, I have maintained connection with them since I met them on here in the late '90s. Your inability figure that out is only matched by your inability to see that you have to try to "fix" things like some potentate in the background.

Also, somebody who would come on here and claim to be sorry for hijacking the thread then re-open the thread on the same level says something. Insincerity? Inability to let go? The need to have the last word? All three?

BTW, 'swore loser', is that a spelling error? Doesn't matter, I don't care, just want to point out that because you make a spelling mistake, I won't infer anything about your background or education or anything like you do when somebody changes 'mind' into 'mine'. You assume it reveals some secret. I assume somebody made a mistake, like those of us who are mortals do. Definitely my last post. I am sorry it has devolved to this.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2014 at 6:59AM
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brandon7 TN_zone(7)

Yes, S_ _ _ _ _, aka J _ _ _ _ _ _ _, aka Dzitmoidonc, it was a spellchecker change that I didn't catch, but that doesn't change the fact that I know who you are now!

    Bookmark   March 3, 2014 at 5:11PM
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