Most fragrant red hybrid tea

jerome(z9 CA)April 1, 2012

I have firefighter which is a great rose here, but I was wondering how its scent compares to other famous reds: Chrysler Imperial; Crimson Glory; Mirandy; Mister Lincoln; Papa Meilland; Oklahoma. I have an ancient hybrid tea I inherited when I took over the garden, leggy, weak and scrawny. Firefighter is a much better plant, but when I picked a rose from Firefighter and one from this mystery red - the latter won.

Which old red has the most powerful scent to your nose? Is Crimson Glory the most perfumed? The only rose I'm not willing to get is Papa Meilland, which is so scrawny.

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alameda/zone 8

I adore Crimson Glory. But Alec's Red really smells good also, has big blooms and lots of them. My CG is a small, own root plant. Plan to order one from Roses Unlimited.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2012 at 3:42AM
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Campanula UK Z8

Etoile d'Hollande - don't have hardly any reds but I grow this for a customer - always a lovely rose, I think (although technically, it is a climbing HT, I think). Am looking forward to Souvenir de Claudius Denoyel.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2012 at 7:43AM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

I have three of the ones you mention:

Crimson Glory is one of the all time best scents - in any rose. It may be the best. It was the first to win the Gamble award and one of the first highly sought-after hybrid teas. However, while the bush is quite strong, it's much older in habit than a typical modern hybrid tea these days. Stems are very short, and the flowers almost always bend over. Petals can be low in number and the blooms may blow fast, but they are a deep red with a highly velevety substance. I'd never be without one.

Oklahoma is another fine one, but has a different set of issues. The stems are longer, but not very strong. At the same time, the bloom is very large with a huge number of petals. It will often bend over simply because of the weight. It also purples very badly when the temp is not quite right (hot or cold). It can easily ball.

As for the others you mention, Mister Lincoln may be the finest example of an overall hybrid tea. About the only disadvantage is the susceptibility to disease. It must be sprayed to keep mildew off and is also susceptible to BS in most areas. Some may say that the habit is too vertical and very seldom branches out into anything that resembles a "bush." That said, there are few roses anywhere that offer up longer stems and consistently single buds. The flower form is perfect exhibition form. Buds can be harvested as soon as the sepals turn down (or a little before) and can be reliably depended on for opening in the vase. Blooms can be saucer-sized when fully open. Petals are a deep and brilliant red and velvety. As said, about the only disadvantage is disease resistance, but that infects all fragrant red hybrid teas.

IMHO, Mister Lincoln is the finest red hybrid tea, period.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2012 at 8:44AM
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michaelg(7a NC Mts)

I doubt that any of the damask-scented crimson HT's is clearly more fragrant than the others in the long term. I prefer 'Chrysler Imperial,' which seems a tougher rose with bushier habit and more blooms than the primary rivals.

Another to add to the list is 'Barcelona,' aka Francis Dubreuil, a prolific bloomer with intense damask fragrance. Like 'Crimson Glory,' it does not have classic HT form.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2012 at 10:28AM
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I have 3 each of Crimson Glory and Chrysler Imperial - all are 3 year olds. Then one of Mr. Lincoln and Oklahoma - both planted late last year. And unfortunately I have never seen or sniffed a Firefighter, so am unable to compare.

I sure would hate to have to choose between Crimson Glory and Chrysler Imperial because they are two of my favorite of close to 90 moderns. Both have outrageously delicious fragrances. Crimson Glory has shorter stemmed, and darker more velvety blooms. The bush is slightly shorter and rounder than Chrysler Imperial (about 3' x 3'). It is a blooming machine, and the blooms are very long lasting. Chryler Imperial has more of that "perfect form", larger HT bloom, on long stems. It is a brighter red. It blooms in flushes, but repeats consistently spring thru fall. Both bushes for me are very healthy with no disease problems.

Mr. Lincoln and Oklahoma were planted late last summer. Mr. Lincoln has been a slow starter for me, but it is also in only a partial sun spot. Both had a few blooms - dark and long stemmed, beautiful form, both blew very fast. This year Mr. Lincoln still looks a tad stunted (I really should move him), and Oklahoma is huge and healthy. I'm still skeptical that they will impress me as much as the first two, but time will tell.

I also planted Veterans Honor same time as Mr. Lincoln and Oklahoma. It has taken off like gangbusters, and its blooms are stunning, but I don't detect much of any fragrance.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2012 at 11:03AM
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Chrysler Imperial.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2012 at 1:41PM
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seil zone 6b MI

Scent is such a relative thing. For me some of the ones mentioned here have little or no scent at all. I have Crimson Bouquet, Veterans' Honor, Oklahoma, Frankly Scarlet and Black Cherry and none of them have a strong fragrance for me.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2012 at 2:52PM
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I dare say Papa Meilland comes out more fragrant than any rose mentioned here, but it is debatable, I have an ongoing discussion with my self which rose has the strongest and best fragrance. Some of the old hybrid perpetuals are very fragrant too; here Etoille de Holland is very fragrant and looks very good planted three together. Empereur du Maroc is way up there too, but not HT. The easiest to grow, tolerates rain and doesn�t fade are Ingrid Bergman and Barcarole, perfect flower but less fragrance.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2012 at 4:27PM
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dove_song(WA State Z6b)

Chrysler Imperial! Beautiful rose. Swoon-worthy fragrance. :)

    Bookmark   April 1, 2012 at 6:09PM
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It's not a true red, but I'd have to say Mirandy after being to the Park of Roses. It's one of the most warm and deeply scented of all roses to my nose. It's definitely not the most beautiful bloom and can nod from time to time, but the scent is deceptively strong. I loved it enough to get a cutting of it and have one growing in my garden.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2012 at 9:09PM
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jerome(z9 CA)

Thank you for your great responses. Love these forums. (or fora!)

    Bookmark   April 2, 2012 at 12:25AM
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Maryl zone 7a

I've grown all the reds you mention except Papa. I heard it was a weak grower, lacking vigor, so never bothered trying it. The winner is Chrysler Imperial. BUT I have to mention that both my DH and I do get a nice scent from Veteran's Honor. Also, if you don't mind the full form of a bloom on a HT, check out Rouge Royale. The fragrance can rival some of the best...Maryl

    Bookmark   April 2, 2012 at 12:58AM
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jerome(z9 CA)

Gosh, I'd like to get them all just to compare scents. I have Barcelona, and it's interesting to compare it to other smelly reds like Firefighter and Wllm Shakespeare 2K. Each one has a subtle difference.

    Bookmark   April 2, 2012 at 1:13AM
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    Bookmark   April 2, 2012 at 7:56AM
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nanadollZ7 SWIdaho(Zone 7 Boise SW Idaho)

According to HMF, the Romantica Rouge Royale is a hybrid tea and very fragrant. It gets high marks and certainly is a beauty, too, in the photos shown. Can anyone confirm its fragrance? I'd love to get this one myself. Diane

    Bookmark   April 2, 2012 at 10:29PM
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I grew Rouge Royale, or rather, I tried to. Heavenly raspberry fragrance. Terrible plant. Sparse blooms, and nasty vegetative centers often showed up in the middle of what flowers I did get. As if that wasn't quite sufficient, I've always loved this description from Hoovb--by the end of the season it looked like a giant Cheeto. It sleeps with the shovels.


    Bookmark   April 3, 2012 at 9:15AM
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kstrong(10 So Cal)

Another vote here for Papa Meilland as the most fragrant red hybrid tea on the market. I just bought my second plant of it, and it's a rare rose in my garden that rates two of them. But (and this is a HUGE BUTT), it's a crappy plant. You grow it only for the blooms you can cut -- so put it somewhere where you don't have to look at the leggy, awful looking, usually disease-ridden (even with spraying) plant. Out behind the woodshed is perfect.

    Bookmark   April 3, 2012 at 11:39AM
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Maryl zone 7a

The one gripe I have about Rouge Royale is not with repeat, growth habit (nice upright medium bush), vigor (on Dr. Huey) or disease, it's the fact that the blooms last in the vase not on the bush. You need to pick them right after they open. However, this is one very fragrant rose, and having a vase full of them inside is not exactly punishment. I've shown this picture before, but it is the look of the blooms 95% of the time (I do occasionally get a veggie center here)

    Bookmark   April 3, 2012 at 2:54PM
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I am putting in my vote for Chrysler Imperial. Mr. Lincoln just has too many drawbacks with disease and tall gawky growth. Oklahoma is nice, too, but I don't grow it and I can't vouch. I also grow Othello, which is an exceptionally fragrant red, but Othello is a beast with his giant canes with fishhooks. He also isn't a hybrid tea :).

    Bookmark   April 3, 2012 at 4:57PM
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For me Mr. Lincoln is the best rose for fragrance and I don't seem to experience much mildew or other diseases. I hope I haven't jinxed myself! Here are some pics just today. My camera does not capture reds well but you get the idea, I hope....


    Bookmark   April 3, 2012 at 9:31PM
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harryshoe zone6 eastern Pennsylvania

When I reduced my HT collection, there was room for only one red. I kept Firefighter, primarily because it was already growing well in the HT bed. Had Chrysler Imperial been in the HT bed, it would have been my choice.

Mr. Lincoln had great blooms, but the bush form was not appealing. I had to cut it back 3 times per year to keep it below 10'.

Oklahoma produced incredible, fragrant blooms. My plant just wasn't robust.


    Bookmark   April 5, 2012 at 11:55AM
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sandandsun(9a FL)


Your question was my first question (mostly unasked) years ago. I kept doing forum searches on it and decided my first must have was Francis Db. Reading the descriptions of Crimson Glory here I'm really wondering what distinguishes it from Francis. I was infatuated with my first whiff of FDb and remain deeply in love although he's a feeble old timer a good deal of the year and all the other posted criticisms are true of him. Somehow I can't seem to be bothered by any of it. His cologne, pure attar, obscures any shortcomings. Given these realities however, I'm surprized he doesn't have notable children and grandchildren - the improved younger generation!
Subsequent research found the results you're getting.
I then narrowed my choice by the oft given wisdom here which is to find roses that are documented to do well in one's locale. So, I got Oklahoma last year on that basis. It's a tiny thing but is looking very healthy in its western exposure. I have hopes for when the corn is as high as an elephant's eye. Well, in a couple of years anyway.

Has hoovb weighed in? If I remember correctly hoovb is in your CA zone. Just an example of how to find out which of the short list will fare the best in your garden.

Now I'm trying to find my orange rose - see link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Orange Roses

    Bookmark   April 5, 2012 at 3:15PM
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I was planning to order three Fire-fighter roses because of Hoovb's review. So, I guess Fire-fighter is not really a fragrant rose? For me, a very fragrant rose is one I can walk pass and smell it instead of having to bury my nose down those petals.

    Bookmark   April 6, 2012 at 12:41AM
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jerome(z9 CA)

I think Firefighter is extremely fragrant - one of the smelliest here. It's just that my "mystery red" here has a more complex fragrance.

    Bookmark   April 6, 2012 at 1:05AM
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My two favorite reds are Rouge Royale and Chrysler Imperial. They both thrive in my garden, the fragrance is to die for.

I used to have Mr. Lincoln but I got rid of it. Right now, I have FF and VH in my garden, they have only been in my garden for a couple of years, I'm not too impressed with either of them, we shall see.

    Bookmark   April 6, 2012 at 10:31AM
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sandandsun(9a FL)

You might find the below linked thread, one of my favorite threads of all time, interesting.

Here is a link that might be useful: Best fragrance (not strongest)

    Bookmark   April 6, 2012 at 7:50PM
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carlota(So. Calif. z.9)

I'm in Upland, so I am giving you my opinion based on my local. For many years I avoided Mr. Lincoln for reasons that seem silly now. My husband bought me my first one and I was thoroughly impressed. When it's warm out Mr. Lincoln has one of the strongest scents in my garden, when it gets cool or rainy the smell seems to be diminished. I've grown and do grow other reds and my true love is Ingrid Bergman for a variety of reasons but I am now a true fan of Mr.Lincoln. I grow three of them now.
I happen to enjoy his height, usually surrounding him with other roses just in case his ankles start to show. I keep one bush/tree for cutting and always cut back to the second set of 5. However, I snap the dead blooms off the others and have found that I get more blooms that way.
Mr. Lincoln is one of those roses I usually give as a gift when I give a bouquet and the responses I get are thrilled. The vase life and frangrance makes my friends very happy.
So, in my humble opinion, despite the potential for BS and bare knees he's a worthy bush. Especially if you enjoy having vases of roses in the house and giving roses to friends.
- Carlota

PS. If anyone recalls my past posts about the Lincoln sport that is/was fushia, it is still growing strong. My original reason for growing 3 was to determine if it was a sport or some other obscure reason. Definately a sport, and an incredible rose!

    Bookmark   April 7, 2012 at 8:29PM
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jerome(z9 CA)

Thanks to all who have responded thus far. I think I am going to get more Mister Lincolns and a Chrysler Imperial for some variety.

    Bookmark   April 11, 2012 at 5:57PM
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You are going to be SO happy with Chrysler Imperial :)

    Bookmark   April 12, 2012 at 10:41AM
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I am not so far from you and wonder if you have the same situation I have where Mr. Lincoln loses his red color fast in warm weather and turns dark pink. Olympiad stays red but has no fragrance. Chrysler I. and Oklahoma have more fragrance than my Mr. L. does.

To respond to your worry about Papa M. I have an own root one and give it the very little to no pruning treatment. It is now about 4'high X 3' wide and getting some very large and highly fragrant blooms. Yes, it does not grow very fast but it is a good rose and I do like it more than it's brothers Mr. L. or Oklahoma. I think in cold places it would have a bad reputation but here in central OC where it's warm it does very well. Sterling Silver gets the same bad press but with minimal pruning, I have a nice sized bush and it flowers with regularity through the year.

I find that many french roses like the long warm season here. Give them plenty of mulch and irrigation and they will not disappoint.

    Bookmark   April 12, 2012 at 10:46AM
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I was really wanting to get a photo together with Mr. Lincoln, Chrysler Imperial, Oklahoma and Crimson Glory for side by side comparisons. But I'm at the end of my 1st flush, and all the blooms are near spent, and timing just isn't right.

This thread got me thinking about how enamored I am with fragrant (and even non-fragrant) red roses. In doing constant "sniffy" tests, and examining each for aesthetics I've come to a new conclusion from my Chrysler Imperial is the one. I think for anyone who loves fragrant reds and has the opportunity to have at least one of each, having each is a great call. (And I must grab a firefighter someday as I've never had the opportunity to see/sniff one). I absolutely love all 4. Chrysler has the biggest, most formal HT form blooms. Mr. Lincoln the truest red. Oklahoma the deepest darkest red, less classic HT bloom - a little looser/cup-er. CG has some PM and the smallest blooms and bush, but I can't imagine not having her. These four roses have some of the best fragrance I've sniffed on roses - clarifying that all of my sniffing has been on modern roses! It all depends on what stage the blooms are in to determine which is the most fragrant that day - they do seem to take turns. Then on a whim I bought Veterans Honor and Ingrid Bergman last year. Neither has any fragrance for me, but the bloom form on both is so spectacular - who cares! The Ingrids last so long on the bush (and in a vase), and almost look fake they are so "perfect". I babble - I love reds! (And oranges, and purples, and yellows - I think I'm hopeless)

    Bookmark   April 29, 2012 at 4:07PM
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betsyw(NSW Aust)

This may sound like rose heresy, but in my garden and in my vase, Firefighter SURPASSES my Mr Lincoln for strength, scent staying power (never stops) and that most elusive quality, waft.

More heresy: maybe Firefighter is almost too assertive, perfume-wise - other deliciously fragranced roses such as the divine Parole and Valencia just get "drowned out" by FF in the room.

I only wish it were spicier, or threw to honeysuckle/jasmine, but FF to my nose is pure, almost industrial-strength rose potpourri. Apt fragrance for a rose whose dropped, shrivelled petals scattered on the coffee table still pump out scent.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2012 at 4:43PM
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janezee(Sunset 5, 8b, Whidbey WA)

Thank you all for such great information. I bought a Firefighter yesterday because of the reputed scent, and came looking for confirmation. I'm So Excited!

    Bookmark   September 20, 2013 at 9:45PM
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hoovb zone 9 sunset 23

My 'Rouge Royale' came back from the dead the past couple of years. It appeared to die, so I cut it down to the bud union and left it, planning to dig it out. As so often happens it got left. Last year it came back, a little, and this year it came back gangbusters and has produced many deliciously fragrant flowers. In this case laziness was wise. Now I'm waiting for the Cheeto effect to ruin it again.

I hope 'Firefighter' is as excellent for you janezee as it has been for me. It is a slow starter, so be patient. The 3rd year is the "leap".

    Bookmark   September 21, 2013 at 10:49AM
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Has anyone heard from Fr. Jerome recently?

A sport of Lincoln? If it is a good color, I would think a Mr. Lincoln sport could do very well commercially.

I rather like the plant of Othello, in all its thorny awkwardness; I think it has character. Used well, not beside paths, obviously, I think it could rescue many a perennial planting from insipidity.

    Bookmark   September 21, 2013 at 11:41PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

I've read this thread a few times, but I kept holding back from replying. I'm assembling a little collection of fragrant dark-red and crimson HTs, but started with own-root bands only this year. All are destined to remain as pot-pets, functioning as the "thrillers" in mixed planters, with annuals as the "fillers" and "spillers". Thus far, I have:

'Chateau de Clos Vougeot'
'Chrysler Imperial'
'Night' (aka 'Lady Sackville')
'Rose of Freedom'

Unfortunately, 'Barcelona' and 'Crimson Glory' bit the dust -- they were very tiny when they came, and didn't recover from heat- or squirrel-induced defoliation. I'll try them again next year, as well as (maybe) a few others on my "list" -- 'Black Lady', 'Black Velvet' (if I can find it), 'Charles Mallerin' (if I can find it), 'Deep Secret', 'Mister Lincoln', 'Mme Louis Laperriere', 'Papa Meilland' and 'Velvet Fragrance'.

'Chateau de Clos Vougeot' and 'Nigrette' aren't the prettiest plants The former is shooting at weird angles, but I think it's sort of building a framework for a thick twiggy shrub shape. The latter is very thin and twiggy, looking much like the band I have of 'Louis Philippe', but more stiffly upright in habit.

'Chrysler Imperial' and 'Rose of Freedom' were a little bigger when they came, but are still growing more slowly than most of the others. Both also had more of a dull shade of dark red to the couple of flowers from them I've let them grow.

'Mirandy', 'Night' and 'Nocturne' seem a bit more vigorous in growth, having a sort of inverted traffic-cone general shape as their canes grew up and out from the center. 'Nocturne' also has flowers in a duller shade of dark red. 'Night' was more of a sharp, sooty red, similar to 'Chateau de Clos Vougeot' but the flower shape was closer to what we today associate with "classic HT form", while still being a bit loose. 'Mirandy' had a nice shape to the flowers, and the color had more of a purplish undertone with a darker layer over the top.

'Oklahoma' was allowed only a couple flowers, but they were the biggest of the bunch, with the most "classic" form, and a deep, "sultry" dark red. Its canes so far grow pretty much straight up.

I got strong fragrances from all of them, but they differed. It's hard to say which was the "best" because I enjoyed what they each gave. But I will say that in terms of an overall assessment of form, color, fragrance, and plant qualities, my favorites right now are 'Mirandy' and 'Oklahoma'. It's hard to really make that into recommendations as "these two are the best of my bunch" because I'm basing it on plants I've had for only five months.

I have only a few pics of flowers, and because I take them on my iPhone, the color isn't true-to-life (the dark reds come out much lighter in pics).

'Nigrette' first flower in bud:

'Nigrette' first flower open:

'Night' (aka 'Lady Sackville') front and center, with 'Mirandy' and 'Lemon Spice' in the back:

'Mirandy' (which, in true-to-life color, was actually more like how 'Night' looked in the previous pic):

'Mirandy' put on a five-flowers-at-once show for me a few weeks ago. I was too preoccupied with working on the yard to keep up with disbudding, and 'Mirandy' got away with doing this, so I took a picture:

I guess it'd be better to let you know how they're doing next year.



This post was edited by AquaEyes on Sun, Sep 22, 13 at 3:21

    Bookmark   September 22, 2013 at 3:19AM
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janezee(Sunset 5, 8b, Whidbey WA)

Thanks for the words of encouragement, hoovb. I'm not always patient, but I can try. I have a Cl. Westerland that I almost lost to neglect due to an injury and drought this summer. I hope it comes roaring back, too.
2016, here I come!

    Bookmark   September 26, 2013 at 11:06AM
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alameda/zone 8

I came across this thread as I am contemplating adding a few fragrant reds this spring. I live in east Texas where summers can get really hot. I mulch and water well, don't leave the roses to fend for themselves. I am thinking of ordering Firefighter and Chrysler Imperial. I have an own root Crimson Glory and just got a potted Mr. Lincoln. Would enjoy knowing which reds do well in hot southern climates. I have a friend with Mr. Lincoln in full hot all day sun that does well - grows tall, but prolific bloom. My Crimson Glory is still in a large pot - plan to get it in the ground when things dry up a bit. I also have an Alec's Red that I love - its not in all day sun, gets it up until about 1pm. I wish it would put out more basal breaks - its not very bushy, but blooms well, has good disease resistance and I adore the fragrant blooms. Would like to add more fragrant reds to my yard, but it would be nice to know which ones are likely to do well in Texas. Thanks in advance for any advice!

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 9:11PM
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For a number of years, I gardened in the hot, semi-arid southeastern quadrant of New Mexico (quite near the Lubbock-Odessa-Midland area of west Texas). My very best fragrant red in that locale was the tall-growing, petal-packed 'Uncle Joe'. When I moved to my present home near the Atlantic coast, UJ was among the first roses I planted in my new garden. Unfortunately, it proved to be incompatible with the humidity here. It grew well and produced lots of buds, but very few of those buds ever opened fully.

I'm not familiar with conditions in east Texas, but I'm guessing that humidity levels there are greater than levels in the far western part of the state. If I'm wrong, and you do have reasonably low humidity in addition to the heat you've described, then consider 'Uncle Joe' (aka 'Toro').

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 10:27PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

I'm bumping this thread because I just placed an order to expand my little pot-pet collection of fragrant dark-red and crimson HTs. Currently growing in their new containers, the following came as bands last year:

Chateau de Clos Vougeot (16" pot)
Chrysler Imperial (resin half-barrel)
Mirandy (VID) (resin half-barrel)
Night (Lady Sackville) (16" pot)
Nigrette (16" pot)
Nocturne VID (16" pot)
Oklahoma (VID) (resin half-barrel)
Rose of Freedom (VID) (resin half-barrel)

Arriving next week will be:

Big Ben
Crimson Glory
Heart's Desire
Mister Lincoln
Red Masterpiece
Velvet Fragrance

They, too, will be pot-pets. The first five are coming as own-root gallon plants from Roses Unlimited. 'Velvet Fragrance' is coming as a band from Heirloom Roses, and as such will likely need to be babied for a while before graduating to a big container.

So...any further reviews on my new acquisitions?



Here is a link that might be useful: Resin Half-Barrel

    Bookmark   May 5, 2014 at 9:52PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

In my climate, I grow Mr. Lincoln and Oklahoma in pots. My info, I'm sure, isn't pertinent to you LOL - but I wanted to share. :)

Mr. Lincoln has really nice scent and blooms more often than Oklahoma.

Oklahoma doesn't bloom very often, and often has trouble opening because of the rain. I detect no fragrance.

Here's a picture of Oklahoma

    Bookmark   May 6, 2014 at 6:54PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

Here's a picture of my Mr. Lincoln.
As you can see - Oklahoma is a darker red. I love the look of it - which is why I keep it - even though there are (for me) better roses.

    Bookmark   May 6, 2014 at 6:58PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

Does anyone here grow 'Olde Romeo'? I think I'll be keeping an eye out for this one.



Here is a link that might be useful: 'Olde Romeo' at HelpMeFind

    Bookmark   May 6, 2014 at 11:25PM
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I have had Mr Lincoln and want to get FF but I'm afraid it's not as big. Can anyone tell me if there is a lot of difference in size between the two?
(I don't want a rose as big as Fragrant Plum for example. )

    Bookmark   October 4, 2014 at 7:23AM
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I have had Mr Lincoln and want to get FF but I'm afraid it's not as big. Can anyone tell me if there is a lot of difference in size between the two?
(I don't want a rose as big as Fragrant Plum for example. )

    Bookmark   October 4, 2014 at 7:26AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

According to, they are roughly the same size--although I think they underestimate Mr. Lincoln's height, at least based on a number of posts we've had on GW.


    Bookmark   October 4, 2014 at 9:43AM
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Might any of our California posters have heard from or about Fr. Jerome?

AquaEyes, how did your new red roses grow for you this year? Your yard or patio must have been spectacular.

    Bookmark   October 6, 2014 at 10:03AM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

The pot-pet HTs were doing ok until (as expected) mid-Summer, by which time they mostly paused from blooming. The mixed pots I planned had some successes and some failures with respect to the annuals I chose, so I know for next year what to use instead. I also decided to stick to using fewer -- I think the number I used in the barrels put a strain on the roses. So next year, for the small pots, I'll probably stick to just three Alyssum around each rose. And for the barrels, just three Petunias.

I also learned that where I placed the pots was not ideal for dark red flowers -- too much sun. Unfortunately, I have to contend with a big riding lawnmower which my landlord parked where I originally wanted to arrange some of my pots and barrels. Hopefully, by Spring, it will be either removed or fit into the garage, and I can put the red pot-pet HTS where they get morning sun and afternoon shade. This year, so many flowers were crisped before fully opening! But, at least the plants grew well.



    Bookmark   October 6, 2014 at 11:47AM
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Hi Guys,

Nowadays I am trying to chose one of the red hybrid tea. I can see that the discussion is very long. It has starts in 2012 ans people still asks what to choose? What are your opinions after so long time?

1. Mr. Lincoln
3.Chrysler Imperial
4.Mirandy (VID)
6. Crimson Glory
7.Papa Meilland

Is the smell of them fulfilling the garden or you can smell it with your nose right to them?

    Bookmark   January 3, 2015 at 3:02AM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

I have all you mentioned, except 'Firefighter' and 'Papa Meilland'. All are grown own-root in large containers. None of mine "perfume the garden" much, but their scents are very strong close-up. If you bring a bouquet inside, however, you will notice their scents throughout the room. To my nose, the best of the five are 'Mirandy' and 'Crimson Glory', but the others are very close behind.

Be aware that as similar as they may seem (all being fragrant red HTs), there are noticeable differences between the plants. 'Crimson Glory' will remain short (unless grafted, maybe). 'Mirandy' will grow a bit taller. Both have blooms which "hang their heads" a bit when fully open. 'Mirandy' has blooms that verge slightly toward maroon and dusky in shadings, picking up a bit of the darkness from its parent 'Night' (which I also have). 'Crimson Glory' is more of a bright blue-leaning dark red, without black or brown shadings.

My 'Chrysler Imperial' is similar to 'Mirandy' in growth, but the blooms are slightly lighter and a bit more upright. 'Mr. Lincoln' and 'Oklahoma' and 'Papa Meilland' are siblings, and children of 'Chrysler Imperial. My 'Mr. Lincoln' and 'Oklahoma' are very similar in growth, being more vigorous than 'Chrysler Imperial', and blooms are more upright. For me, 'Oklahoma' has a darker color, but 'Mr. Lincoln' has more of a "classic HT form" to its blooms. I don't have 'Papa Meilland' (yet!), but I understand it's less vigorous than the other two, and its blooms are the most fragrant of the three (though they are all strongly scented).

I have a half-brother of the last three which grows much like 'Mr. Lincoln' and 'Oklahoma'. This is 'Big Ben'. So far, its scent isn't quite as strong as the other two, but they are all still young right now. Two others of the more vigorous type I have are 'Red Masterpiece' and 'Velvet Fragrance'. They both smell great, and both put out stout thick canes in their first year, coming as own-root gallons.



    Bookmark   January 3, 2015 at 11:14AM
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~Christopher thank you for so detailed answer!!! Is it a pity you do not have papa meiiland. This specific rose is the easiest for me to get it.

What do you mean by writing:

" I don't have 'Papa Meilland' (yet!), but I understand it's less vigorous than the other two, and its blooms are the most fragrant of the three (though they are all strongly scented)."


    Bookmark   January 4, 2015 at 4:20AM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

'Oklahoma', 'Mister Lincoln' and 'Papa Meilland' are "brothers" -- they share the same parents. The first two actually arose from the same cross by the same breeder. 'Papa Meilland' was raised by a different breeder, who used the same parents but in the opposite direction (i.e. switched which rose gave the pollen and which bore the seed, but used the same two parents). Of the three, the first two are usually reported to grow more vigorously than 'Papa Meilland', but the more temperamental 'Papa' is often claimed to be "worth it" for the sake of its flowers. Look at all three on HelpMeFind and read the comments.

As to why I don't have it, well, at the times I was ordering roses it simply wasn't available from the vendors I chose. I picked a few of my pot-pet red HTs for Spring 2013 delivery, then ordered a few more for Spring 2014. I wanted them own-root -- being pot-pets, I'd actually prefer them to be less vigorous than the budded/grafted plants. The vendors from whom I purchased my pot-pet HTs were Heirloom Roses, Rogue Valley Roses, the late Vintage Gardens, and Roses Unlimited. I'm sure it's available elsewhere, but I didn't want "one rose from here, one from there, two from there..." etc. If I couldn't get it at the time, oh well -- maybe next year.



    Bookmark   January 4, 2015 at 1:46PM
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My vote is for Papa Meilland also, but Patrician an older HT from JP is very close as is Firefighter....

    Bookmark   January 4, 2015 at 9:17PM
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Heres my take on fragrant reds that I grow or have grown-

Papa Meilland- The best way to grow this is in a tightly planted group of 3, planted 1 foot or less apart. The branches are brittle and they will sometimes break in the wind. The bushes are awkward looking and mishapen when planted as single specimens, but the 3 together look pretty good. The scent is intense. On any given day, this could be the most fragrant.

Mr Lincoln- grows tall and throws off some very large flowers, along with some weirdly long canes. Like its brother Papa M, On any given day it could be the most fragrant rose.

Chrysler Imperial- Short, intense fragrance, not as winter hardy or as vigorous as the others.

Velvet Fragrance- Strong scent, good repeat, neat growth habit.

Firefighter- Grows taller and relatively narrow. Intense scent, good repeat. Could be the strongest.

Crimson Glory- Short ( I grow it ownroot) with nodding blooms, excellent repeat, Intense scent could be the strongest on any given day. I'm not a fan of blooms that point down.

Rouge Royal- Longest life in the vase, horrible if you let the flower open on the plant. You must cut every bloom off if you want to enjoy this plant, otherwise they open malformed with rot. Intence scent unlike the others, could be the strongest. This is not a true red, as it has purple tones.

Barcelona- Week bush, small blooms that get thrippy, intense scent.

Alec's Red- Has a lot of Pink, but still considered Red. Fantastic repeater, compact bush, intense scent, but just a half grade less intense than some of the others. One of my favorites.

Lasting Love- On the first flush, it's mostly one to a stem blooms, on later flushes it is more of a floribunda. Intense scent, could be the strongest. Good repeat, shorter, compact growth habit.

Oklahoma- Tall but not vigorous. I have tried 2x with this and they just never seem to like my garden. Slow repeat, but intense fragrance, could be the strongest.

I know I'm calling several of them the most fragrant, but on any given day, it changes.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2015 at 10:40PM
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In my mild area by Disneyland Papa M is large but I don't try to keep this rose small. I heard it is a weak grower but I think it is just a slower grower than some others. The bigger the plant, the more roses it has made. It continues to flower all year. The shape of the plant is open and tall. I have it in back tied to a few stakes to keep it from encroaching on other plants or breaking in the wind.

    Bookmark   February 9, 2015 at 1:33AM
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