Geranium 'Jolly Bee' to cease exsistence!

coolplantsguy(z6 Ontario)April 21, 2010

A court case has ruled that Geranium 'Rozanne' and 'Jolly Bee' are too similar, and that Macro van Noort, breeder of 'Jolly Bee' must "cease and desist" growing and promoting 'Jolly Bee' as of July 1, 2010. See link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Geranium 'Rozanne' / 'Jolly Bee' court case

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brody(z7 WA)

I wonder if poor 'Anne Thomson' will get the boot, too. Seems kind of silly.

    Bookmark   April 21, 2010 at 7:45PM
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woodyoak zone 5 Canada(5b)

One difference between Rozanne and Jolly Bee in my garden was Jolly Bee ceased to exist after the first winter while Rozanne thrives!

    Bookmark   April 21, 2010 at 8:17PM
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gazania_gw

My experience is just the opposit of woodyoak. Jolly Bee is still alive in it's 4th season in heavy clay soil. It is not 'robust' exactly, but Rozanne didn't even make an appearance in season 2. I don't blame the plants. It is more likely the location. But at least Jolly Bee seems better able to put up with less than ideal conditions.

    Bookmark   April 22, 2010 at 7:06AM
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torajima

That's pretty stupid.

I personally don't believe in plant patents, plants should always be "open source".

    Bookmark   April 22, 2010 at 7:26AM
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coolplantsguy(z6 Ontario)

It is a shame. Blooms of Bressingham just fell another notch IMO. :(

    Bookmark   April 22, 2010 at 7:43AM
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terrene(5b MA)

It's a dog eat dog world out there. Rozanne is probably one of the top money-makers in the horticulture trade, and they are going to eliminate the competition if they can to maximize their profits.

This case seems extreme, but it is nothing compared to Monsanto and their patents on GMO crops (90% of the corn grown in the US is with patented seed). Otherwise I am okay with plant patents, because in most cases I imagine that breeders toll patiently for years to produce a patentable plant and they deserve some reward.

    Bookmark   April 22, 2010 at 8:01AM
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PRO
Propaganda Garden Design

I agree with torajima. Patents on living things are lame.

    Bookmark   April 22, 2010 at 4:06PM
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perplant

The bottom line would seem to indicate that 'Jolly Bee' has never existed - it has been Geranium 'Rozanne' sold under a different name. The Patents for each plant claim to have different pod parents and it would not be possible for both of those to result in a plant with the same DNA.

Perceived differences over the years between the plants can be attributed to differences in tissue culture labs, growing practices and local conditions.

The plant world is full of tales of plant piracy, some of which are likely to be true. The plant world also includes hybridizers that spend their lives seeking new plants. I applaud the efforts to protect their interests and their livelihoods.

If I found a new plant I would want Blooms or a like company to represent me that is willing to stand up on my behalf.

    Bookmark   April 22, 2010 at 4:15PM
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coolplantsguy(z6 Ontario)

I'm not so sure. The statement refers to "virtually no differences" (in the DNA). What does that mean? Were there some? Could there be some?

Also, "investigations revealed that both varieties are not, at least not clearly, distinct from one another from a morphological point of view" -- yeah, so what? There are hundreds of plants that would fit this bill.

IMO, Marco van Noort is a true plantsman and hybridizer, whereas Blooms of Bressingham once was, but is now a relatively large corporation. They did not breed 'Rozanne'!

In any case, my point is that this gives the appearance that they care little about the breeder, and more about simply maximizing corporate profits.

Sure, if I "discovered" a new plant (as in the case of 'Rozanne'), I too would prefer someone like BOB to manage its introduction, etc.

However, if I wanted to see many cool, new plants, meticulously hybridized, evaluated, selected and propagated for many years, I would visit Marco's nursery.

In the meantime, here's to dirt under your nails.

    Bookmark   April 22, 2010 at 6:43PM
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coolplantsguy(z6 Ontario)

My apologies for the spelling mistake BTW. ;)

    Bookmark   April 22, 2010 at 6:48PM
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mrtulin

i'm scouting for Jolly Bee before they disappear. I don't think JB and Rozanne are identical. The difference in growth habit is obvious. Side by side I thought JB white center was more pronounced. Altogether, I like JB more.

    Bookmark   April 23, 2010 at 12:16AM
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franeli(z4 NH)

I was under the impression that 'jolly bee' was a mounding plant and not a spreading plant like 'rozanne'.
Like idabean, I'd like to find a 'jolly bee' this spring.

    Bookmark   April 23, 2010 at 6:52AM
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gottagarden(z5 western NY)

I got JB last year, and it is different from Rozanne. Right now with the new growth emerging, Jolly Bee has a dinctinctively lighter green foliage with orangish cast much prettier than the dullish green of Rozanne. I can tell them apart at a glance even without flowers.

    Bookmark   April 23, 2010 at 8:07AM
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athenainwi

To coolplantsguy - DNA tests do not compare every gene in the plant. The genetic testing pick a few regions that are highly variable in that species and thus should be different between different plants (or humans, for that matter). If all of those regions are the same, then the plants are considered identical even though only a portion of the DNA has been sequenced.

    Bookmark   April 23, 2010 at 3:27PM
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aftermidnight Zone7b B.C. Canada

I'm with coolplantsguy on this one, there are a lot of plants that are similar or might even look identical but one might grow better than the other under different conditions. I've always had a high regard for Blooms of Bressingham, they've now fallen off the pedestal I had them on. I just went out and purposely bought a plant of Jolly Bee this morning before they're no longer available, it sure is a pretty geranium.

Annette

    Bookmark   April 23, 2010 at 4:01PM
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phill173(8 OR)

I had both Jolly Bee and Rozanne last summer, and my college-aged son "weeded" for me this spring, and pulled up 2/3 of my garden, including Jolly Bee and Rozanne. I bought two Rozannes since then, but am on the hunt for a new Jolly Bee. Where would be the best place to try to get one? At a local nursery or on-line? I really liked my Jolly Bee and did think that its growth habit and flowers were different.

Someone mentioned Anne Thompson. I have had both Anne Folkard and Anne Thompson and much prefer the latter--more mounding and floriforous. Is the comparison the same for Rozanne and the Bee?

    Bookmark   April 25, 2010 at 1:44AM
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ctopher_mi

Jolly Bee was always reported to be more mounding, but I think that was just variations in growing conditions. When I grew them side by side in the same spot I really couldn't tell them apart come midsummer when they were fully leafed out and flowering. But I never compared them at other times of year.

Plant piracy is unfortunately more common than you might think and this could be the beginning of more litigation on other cases.

Chris

    Bookmark   April 25, 2010 at 9:47AM
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whaas_5a(5A SE WI)

I planted 3 'Jolly Bee' and 3 'Rozanne' last year to see the difference with this "apparent" conspiracy.

The groupings are in the exact same conditions (soil and light).

'Jolly Bee' is a tighter mounding plant.
'Rozanne' is a more spreading sprawler.

It was quite obvious too. I can't recommend one over the other. The flower and foilage is the same.

I'm excited that even though the rabbits ate most of the foilage early fall ALL 6 plants came back this spring!

I'm wondering if I should divide them now or give em one more year?

    Bookmark   April 25, 2010 at 11:52AM
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ontnative(5b Can/USDA 4)

I like my Jolly Bee better than Rozanne, but do not grow them side by side, so perhaps the comparison is not valid. Still, if I could only keep one, it would be Jolly Bee. I have had them both several years. I actually have one JB and three Rozannes, all in different garden locations.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2010 at 11:59AM
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Campanula UK Z8

yes, i have grown both and always felt that JB was considerably more compact than R. BoB truly are just corporate raiders these days.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2010 at 5:52PM
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ceterum

I killed a Rozanne when I tried to divide it, so be careful.

I don't have Jolly Bee. I wanted to order it a couple of weeks ago, but the vendor said she could not sell it any more.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2010 at 8:22PM
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ceterum

I killed a Rozanne when I tried to divide it, so be careful.

I don't have Jolly Bee. I wanted to order it a couple of weeks ago, but the vendor said she could not sell it any more.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2010 at 9:07PM
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coolplantsguy(z6 Ontario)

Here's what Tony Avent (Plant Delights Nursery) had to say about it:

One of the plants that we have extolled the virtues of is Geranium 'Rozanne' PP 12,175. Well, there has been an ongoing controversy with a look-a-like called Geranium 'Jolly Bee', which finally reached a conclusion. Geranium 'Rozanne' was patented in the US on February 25, 1999. Less than a year later, in January 18, 2000, a similar seedling from Holland's Marco Van Noort hit the market, named Geranium 'Jolly Bee' PP 12,148. All of us who had grown both varieties, agreed that they were extremely similar, but not exactly the same. We chose to sell G. 'Rozanne'. Both varieties were issued a US patent, since Van Noort did not include Geranium 'Jolly Bee' as the closest similar variety on his patent application, which he was required to do by law. Blooms of Bressingham, which has the marketing rights to Geranium 'Rozanne' filed a patent infringement suit against Van Noort. The bitter dispute lasted over seven years, and Van Noort recently gave up after spending over 200,000 Euros. DNA tests showed that the two varieties were indeed similar, but not the same. Heck, I could have told them that for far less money. Van Noort has agreed to stop sales of Geranium 'Jolly Bee' after July 1, 2010.

    Bookmark   April 30, 2010 at 9:01AM
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ontnative(5b Can/USDA 4)

I'm so happy. I got two small plants of JB at our local hort. society sale yesterday as my thank-you for donating plants and helping staff the sale table. I didn't even realize they were labelled JB until I got home. Yes, I know. They are likely seedlings of the true Jolly Bee, but what the heck. I will have fun watching them grow and comparing them to the real JB and Rozanne.

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 8:36AM
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franeli(z4 NH)

I just bought 3 'Jolly Bees' at the local nursery grown by Proven Winners.
I was told JB was a mounding plant,so if it is,it's plant habit is very different from 'Rozanne'.

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 6:24PM
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garry_z7a_md

I saw this interesting description of Jolly Bee on the Geraniaceae website, a leading authority and nursery of geraniums:

"We were only planning to sell G. 'Rozanne' but many customers asked for G. 'Jolly Bee'. A taxonomist can tell them apart, but at 5' we can't. Remember culture can alter plant size and flower color. Large mounding habit. Large blue lilac flower with pale centers, faintly mottled leaves; very long flowering from spring to frost."

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 10:25PM
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