Bayer Advanced 3 in 1 rose & flower care...

gardenlady48(z5 IL)April 25, 2012

can I get your opinion of the product listed in the subject line....I used it today for the first time.....I was impressed with the fact that there was no spraying involved, just mix and pour around roses. It last for 6 weeks and addresses all the issues, BS, insects, and fertilizing. Is it really that good?

Sure would appreciate some feedback.... Thank you so much for your time. :)

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jacqueline9CA

It is my opinion that if you have problems with specific diseases or insects, you should only treat for those, and carefully. I have been told that using a good fertilizer is better than that in this product. This product will kill all good bugs - bees, butterflies, and bugs like ladybugs and soldier bugs that eat bad bugs. Is that what you really want? That can result in the bad bugs in your garden exploding in population, as all of the bad bug killers have been killed, and it upsets the balance. Also, it kills all of the pollinators, so if you have any fruit trees, etc. it can reduce the amount of fruit...

Jackie

    Bookmark   April 25, 2012 at 7:49PM
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gardenlady48(z5 IL)

jackie~ that is what I have done all along, treating individual specific problems...this product was recommended to me...so thought I would try. But I do believe in treating the actual problem w/product provided. I'm sure it wont cause that much damage for this one time experiment . Oh well. just wanted feedback...

    Bookmark   April 25, 2012 at 8:15PM
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buford(7 NE GA)

I used to use it and still will use it on some roses that have bad thrip problems (I didn't have thrips when I used it). But IME, I still needed to spray for blackspot. The 3-1 may help with disease, but it will not eliminate it.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2012 at 8:30PM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

Yes, it's a convenience more than a perfect cure. True blackspot control is not administered systemically, but through thorough spraying of all the leaves, canes, etc. It provides some protection through a drench, but not the best.

As for killing all insects, That is open to debate. Through systemic action, it will poison those bugs that directly consume parts of the rose plant, but isn't that what we want?

People around here assume that it kills everything, but once again, you have to spray the stuff to do that. With a spray, everything that comes in contact with the surface of the rose will be affected. A drench is different. If the "good" insect doesn't attempt to "eat" the rose, nothing is going to happen. You may kill some localized "good" insect eggs/larvae that may be in the immediate area of the drench, but as for the rest of it - I think NOT.

If it helps with your roses and you don't want to enter the world of regular spraying and ... you notice no ill effects (dead bees, a spider mite problem, etc.), then maybe it's OK for you.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2012 at 9:49PM
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diane_nj 6b/7a

I don't recommend it for several reasons. The fungicide can take 4 - 6 weeks to become effective. It takes that long to be taken up by the plant. In that time, blackspot has already taken control, and you'll need some other treatment. The fertilizer usually isn't enough for a good feeding. The insecticide kills beneficial insects (such as the ones that control spider mites) and earthworms. Insecticides aren't usually needed on a regular basis (except in extreme cases, such as midge). And, it is expensive to use.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2012 at 10:30PM
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meredith_e Z7b, Piedmont of NC, 1000' elevation

I haven't been keeping up with y'all's posts on the insecticide in Bayer 3-in-1, but I'm not sure that the pests (or good bugs) have to actually ingest plant material with systemic imidacloprid. Doesn't it act like a contact poison, even when used as a systemic?

I know I avoid its use in the garden. It can also kill birds, and it definitely kills bees and ladybugs. I'm not sure how safely it can be applied in various forms, as I just avoid this one :)

Here is a link that might be useful: A very brief link on the insecticide in BA3-in-1

    Bookmark   April 26, 2012 at 4:56AM
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SpiderLily7(8B)

Imidacloprid, the active ingredient in Bayer 3 in 1 rose care, has been identified in two scientific studies as the prime suspect in colony collapse disorder, which is killing commercial hives and honeybees in the wild. In other words, it kills our essential pollinators. It's a neutoxin that disorients bees to the extent they can't find their way back to their hive. The bees die, their queen dies, and we all lose the means of pollinating our vegetables and fruits. It's a huge problem.

    Bookmark   April 26, 2012 at 7:49AM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

I'm more interested in getting people to grow roses. If this helps someone over the excruciating spray regimen that some of us use, then I'm all for it ... in limited circumstances. It's an approved product, period, and available for sale almost everywhere that these products are sold.

This stuff about killing bee hives from a systemic drench is not authoritative and someone saying it kills birds is pure hysteria.

    Bookmark   April 26, 2012 at 8:45AM
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gardenlady48(z5 IL)

Okay, thanks to all, very informative.

However, can you all share your favorite product for BS, and insects then???

Thank You

    Bookmark   April 26, 2012 at 9:31AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

For insects--usually wait patiently and the good bugs will come along and eat 'em up. Or use a strong stream of water from the hose. Or get in there with your fingers and wipe aphids off the blooms, pick those little green wormy things (sawfly larva) off the undersides and edges of the leaves--hmm, can't think of very many buggy critter types that plague my roses--especially since I quit (years ago) killing off the good bugs with insecticides intended for the bad bugs.

For BS, first line of defense is quit buying BS-prone roses just because the blooms are lovely (I have two of those, so I'm guilty also.) Since then, all roses coming into my garden must FIRST meet the good disease-resistance test. OR even better, be exceptionally disease-resistant! I do spray for BS a couple times in the spring--with Bayer Advanced Garden Disease Control for Roses, Flowers, and Shrubs (or some such awkward name)--and a couple times in the fall. Since I know my roses, I know which ones never need spraying, which ones only occasionally need spraying, and which ones (a couple hybrid teas) regularly need spraying. In other words, I do not spray them all--just the ones that NEED spraying. And I rarely spray in the hot, hot, hot summer--too hot here in July and August even for BS much less for human beings!

That about it. I try to keep it simple and uncomplicated. Buying disease-resistant roses and feeding/watering them so they remain healthy is usually the best defense, I find.

Kate

    Bookmark   April 26, 2012 at 9:53AM
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jacqueline9CA

What Kate said.

Jackie

    Bookmark   April 26, 2012 at 11:21AM
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meredith_e Z7b, Piedmont of NC, 1000' elevation

The bird toxicity is mentioned in lots of literature on imidacloprid, and I'm not prone to hysteria ;) I've said that I have not researched forms or rates that make this one safe enough for my comfort. I'm just noting why I don't use it.

"Okay, thanks to all, very informative.

However, can you all share your favorite product for BS, and insects then???

Thank You"

I do use spinosad products on the buds for some big problems. I use the Fertilome bagworm liquid, and I spray before the plant has blooms to reduce the effect on bees. I try to hand-squish the really mean stuff, but I do have times where too many things are eating too many buds. I try really hard to let the natural predators do it, though. So mainly I move ladybugs or preying mantises from the grass to the rose garden :) I don't want the good bugs to die, at all.

I also use an asphalt pruning sealer because cane borers became a big problem. The bees love my garden a bit too much, lol. They can bore into the ramblers by my woods, darnit!

BS is mostly not a problem anymore. I use the Bayer product without insecticide on small plants that might be hurt by BS, and the others seem to go through spells occasionally and recover fine. If I can't prune out enough canker on a rose during spring, I'd use a fungicide on it, too, but I'm having success with pruning and sealing nowadays.

I don't mind a few spotty leaves, but I realize that BS can weaken a plant if it's too bad. I think my plants are mostly mature enough that they shake it off nicely by the time it gets hot enough for the weather to thwart that disease. It was more of a problem when my garden was younger.

    Bookmark   April 26, 2012 at 12:54PM
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buford(7 NE GA)

I use the Bayer Advanced spray for BS. It's extremely effective. The only true insect problem I have is thrips. When I did use the 3-1 I never had thrips. So I am going to try it again on those roses that get ruined by thrips.

    Bookmark   April 26, 2012 at 11:18PM
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karl_bapst_rosenut(5a, NW Indiana)

If the all in one, 3 in 1, and 2 in 1 products were that good, all the experts and exhibitors would be using it.
None I have spoken to use it.
I haven't sprayed anything for 10 years. I have few destructive insects but I do have lots of predatory insects, birds, bees, and butterflies.

rosetom, the fact it may work well in some cases, doesn't mean it's safe for the environment. I too try to encourage new rosegrowers, but I advise them not to use insecticides and to buy only disease resistant varieties. There are several and they're not all Knock Outs. All they have to do is look at my 400 roses all season to see my method works.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2012 at 12:08AM
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SpiderLily7(8B)

What Karl said. Instead of dismissal, I think hysteria is an appropriate reaction to the accelerating decimation of the pollinators of key food crops, let along ornamental plants, and as usual, European countries are ahead of the U.S. in protecting themselves against toxic products such as neonicotinoids. Here's a link to an article describing the study by a Harvard-based scientist that gives a very good idea of the methodology employed to assess the effects of imidacloprid on bees. In a drench, the chemical works its way into the structure of the plant, including its pollen which--guess what--is ingested by bees. I look forward to reading the actual study when it's published in the June Bulletin of Insectology. If for some reason this link doesn't work, the article was posted April 6 in "Wired Science" of wired.com

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/04/neonicotinoids-colony-collapse

    Bookmark   April 28, 2012 at 12:33PM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

Karl,

I didn't intend to involve you in this conversation. Neither did anyone say you weren't successful at growing roses. However, all you need to do is read the post above yours to now know someone who's used it. You also must recognize that things that work for you in zone 5 may not have any applicability in some place like Georgia. Granted, the OP shows as zone 5, too, so I'll concede that point.

As for imidacloprid, I've used it for years. It's one of the tamest insecticides out there - that's the issue I have with it. Its systemic action lasts about 3 days in my environment - sprayed, that is. I have had better success with Avid against thrips and like buford says, that's our primary issue here in Georgia. Well, except for the Japanese beetles. Merit (imidacloprid) is the perfect thing for them. Anyway, if buford says the Bayer 3-in-1 tames the thrips, I think I'm going to try it. It might be nice to take a break from my spotshot sprayer and 10 gallons or so of spray that I use every week.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2012 at 3:15PM
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michaelg(7a NC Mts)

Note: people frequently confuse these Bayer products:

All-in-One = soil drench product with cheap fertilizer, imidacloprid insecticide (Merit) , and tebuconazole fungicide.

3 in 1 = combo spray product with miticide, imidacloprid insecticide, and tebuconazole fungicide.

Frankly, there is little excuse for combo pesticide products. They are marketed to novice gardeners who don't know how to diagnose and treat particular problems (present company excluded, of course). They entail using chemicals unnecessarily. For example, insecticide is rarely needed on roses, while fungicide may be needed every two weeks. For another example, miticide is rarely or never needed unless you are unnecessarily using an insecticide such as Merit, which causes mite outbreaks. For a third example, one of the environmental hazards of tebuconazole fungicide is leaching through sandy soil into groundwater. With the soil drench product as opposed to spraying, you are using around 20 times as much of the chemical per plant treated.

Incidentally, if people feel they need to use insecticide such as Merit for thrips and japanese beetles, they should remove all the open and partly open flowers and then just mist the tight buds with spray--or the young foliage if the JBs are also eating that. It is deeply irresponsible to spray insecticide on open flowers. I don't feel right about spraying buds either, so I don't use insecticides on the roses at all.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2012 at 3:55PM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

Deeply irresponsible? Bunk.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2012 at 4:13PM
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Soeur(z6b TN)

I only wish there was minor insect activity on roses here. Unless you do something about it, in spring sawfly larvae will decimate the foliage. I'm not talking about a little damage, more like every leaf chomped on severely. I use spinosad, carefully.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2012 at 7:37PM
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buford(7 NE GA)

I've not used the Bayer 3-1 drench for a few years. In those few years, the thrips are out of control. I have to do something, I can't even bring roses into the house or work, because all I see is little worms on the tv and computer screens. It's disgusting. So I'm using it on a few roses. I wish it didn't have chemical fertilizer it it, that to me is the only drawback.

A few years ago, I had thousands of Japanese Beetles that invaded not only my roses, but crepe myrtles, rose of sharon and cherry trees. They would have defoliated the trees. I spray with Sevin that one time. There were literally piles of dead JBs on the ground. Since then, I haven't see more than a dozen in a year. I don't regret it.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2012 at 8:52PM
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SpiderLily7(8B)

Buford, if you're troubled by thrips, try releasing Amblyseius cucumeris, a predatory mite that's the natural enemy of thrips; You can buy them online. . I raise several hundred roses in south Louisiana bug and fungi heaven, and I do it without spraying. It can be done, with good cultivation and companion planting to create a biodiverse environment that encourages a natural balance of insects including beneficials like ladybugs. hoverflies, and green lacewings, along with huge populations of lizards, frogs, and birds. I have no aphids, leafrollers, or thrips thanks to them and a side benefit are the healthy butterfly populations. MichaelG, thank you for the clear explanation of those "combo" products; more people need to understand that. My mind also reels at the idea of spraying open blooms. It creates a very efficient way to kill bees and other beneficials. All of our personal choices about chemicals in the garden add up, and it's killing the creatures we all need.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2012 at 5:40AM
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buford(7 NE GA)

Spider, I do have plenty of predatory insects, but they are overwhelmed by the thrips. I can tell you that I never get a bloom in the spring on Mlle Franziska Kruger or Duchess de Brabant because of the thrips. They are also in other roses, but those are the two worst ones. I think for those roses, a systematic insecticide may help. I wouldn't use it on all my roses (I stopped using it because it became too expensive and time consuming for 100+ roses). But I feel these are extreme cases. I also used it when I had a bad lacewing problem on my azaleas and nothing else would help.

I really don't want to spray open blooms, and that doesn't help with thrips anyway, since they ruin the bloom before it opens. The systematic is less of a problem because it only effects bugs that actually chew or suck on the roses, which is what we want.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2012 at 8:48AM
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SpiderLily7(8B)

Buford, that's interesting about your MFK and DdB blooms, or lack thereof, because they're among the first spring bloomers in my garden. What's even more interesting is that you used a systemic chemical control to reduce your population of lacewings, since lacewings are natural predators of thrips and many other insect pests. Here's a link with more info:

http://www.thebeneficialinsectco.com/green-lacewing-larvae.htm

Sounds like you need more assassin bugs, which prey on lacewing larvae. Butterfly weed and other butterfly host plants are also good for attracting assassin bugs, because their larvae feed on butterfly larvae. If you plant enough, everybody survives.

The beneficial/pest insect interaction is all wonderfully choreographed, and it's why I continue to interplant my roses with a huge variety of host plants and wildflowers and then get out of the way. I did the same in a mountain garden in western North Carolina. It works.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2012 at 9:32AM
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