lace bark elm

vancleaveterryJanuary 19, 2008

Ulmus parvifolia "hallelujah" is offered by Song Sparrow which says it's a seedling discovered in Oregon from the oriental elm. They say it will grow zone 4 to 9 and I was wondering if it was invasive?

I prefer strong wooded trees. Would this fit the bill?

All opinions are appreciated. Terry

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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

The trashy species is U. pumila. U. parvifolia 'Hallelujah' was

"Introduced [before/during]1993-94 by Arborvillage nursery of Holt, MO: 'Our selection out of a block of USDA seedlings. Fastest; excellent bark and foliage. Cold hardy.'"

--Jacobson, North American Landscape Trees (1996, Ten Speed Press, Berkeley)

    Bookmark   January 19, 2008 at 10:01PM
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esh_ga

There are a few states that list it as invasive, not all the states have lists so it is hard to tell where the problem areas could be.

My friend (in Georgia) has a couple of chinese elms (probably just species, not a cultivar). She is always having to pull seedlings out of her beds, her junipers, her lawn, her woods ... so while it may not be invasive (yet), it can be a pain in the rear in your own yard! Also, the roots have become raised in the lawn area, so apparently it is not a good "lawn" tree (if there is such a thing).

    Bookmark   January 19, 2008 at 10:09PM
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alabamatreehugger(8)

I have read about Chinese Elm being invasive in Texas, so I'd think it would be in south Mississippi too. I decided to plant a couple of Winged Elm trees this year. I don't think DED is a problem along the gulf coast. I know it has never been reported in Florida.

    Bookmark   January 19, 2008 at 10:13PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

"Chinese elm" often refers to U. pumila.

    Bookmark   January 19, 2008 at 10:41PM
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vancleaveterry

Would an American Elm be a possibility along the MS coast? What variety would be suggested for DED resistance and wind strength?

    Bookmark   January 19, 2008 at 11:08PM
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justintx(7B-NorthFt.Worth)

My mother has one in her front yard in Lubbock, TX and it is a beautiful tree. It does produce lots of 'babies', but is quite controllable in the yard. I love its open appearance from beneath and the bark is very attractive. I planted one of the 'babies' in my yard in Justin, TX (north of Ft. Worth) and it has taken off at an astonishing rate. From a literal twig (18") in the summer of 2005 to a 12' tree now. I know they can have problems with cotton root rot (known to be in my area) and they tend to lean with the predominant wind direction, but they are lovely trees. Neil Sperry (local gardening guru) doesn't recommend them anymore due to their leaning tendency. FWIW

    Bookmark   January 19, 2008 at 11:13PM
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Carrie B(6B/7A)

Ulmus parvifolia is a nuisance at the arboretum where I work (in southeast PA) to maintain the "natural" areas. I'm constantly pulling up seedlings from the meadow and wetlands, and ulmus parvifolia seedlings have a taproot that make them difficult to pull up.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 9:14AM
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kman04(z6 KS)

I'm seeing the same thing as carrieb in my area now that more U. parvifolia are planted and established. But it isn't on the scale of the Ulmus pumila(this is what 99% of people around my area call Chinese Elm, but it is really Siberian Elm) seedlings, at least not yet. I also know that the person who selected "Hallelujah" and a couple of other cultivars of U. parvifolia is beginning to second guess their enthusiasm about this species based on the recent seedling production seen around planted specimens.

Also, I know of some U. parvifolia which look to be holding up relatively well to the spat of ice storms that we've had over the past 5 years or so, but one planted near me is just about imploding with every moderate ice storm or heavy wet snow that happens. It is beginning to look like a horrible wreck, but still puts out vigorous growth and manages to try and regain some kind of form. I don't think it will make it in the long run though and the next bad ice storm will probably split it in half.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 10:51AM
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esh_ga

Terry, here is one man's comparison of the cultivars of American Elm.

Here is a link that might be useful: Comparison

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 11:32AM
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esh_ga

Another good site, this one shows all the elms in a national trial (the website page is dated 6/15/2007).

The good thing about this page is that it shows the parentage of each of the cultivars. You can see that some of them were crossed with U. parvifolia, U. pumila, U. japonica, etc. 'Valley Forge', 'Princton', 'New Harmony', and 'Jefferson' are all U. americana selections.

Here is a link that might be useful: National Elm Trial

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 11:46AM
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vancleaveterry

Esh... great links.

Now to complete this thread we just need a reasonable source for Princton and Valley Forge cultivars.

I really like the Princton's shape. Looks strong.

Thanks to all for the info.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 12:18PM
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tdsmith_gw(7a)

I had a lacebark elm in my front yard for three years until we had an ice storm in Dec. . It was about 12 " tall and it split in half all the way to the ground with the weight of the ice on it's branches. I then read that they have brittle wood so I will be planting something different in it's place.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 12:55PM
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alabamatreehugger(8)

Try "The Botany Shop"

Here is a link that might be useful: The Botany Shop

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 1:37PM
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esh_ga

Quirkyquercus reported in May 2007 that Princeton Elms were in Home Depot. I assume that was in Georgia, QQ's state of residence.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 2:10PM
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alabamatreehugger(8)

Terry, if you're going to plant them in woodland areas I would try some regular seedlings. I think along the gulf coast the chances of them getting DED are slim. I have seen Ulmus americana seedlings for a few bucks on ebay and elsewhere.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 4:05PM
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kman04(z6 KS)

If you're set on an Elm, the suggestions about the new cultivars of and hybrids involving American Elm are great, but I also like the Cedar Elm (Ulmus crassifolia). Cedar Elm is an extremely tough native Elm which is very tolerant of drought and heavy wet soils and the small thick glossy green leaves almost gives it a sense of being an evergreen. The bark is quite interesting to me also being light tan with some orange-brown fissures. It seems to be a bit more resistant to DED than other American Elms also. I've seen it planted all over Texas and Oklahoma and haven't noticed any being affected by DED(although I'm sure some may have, I just never have seen it). The ones I've observed have also done well with ice and snow compared to some other Elms. It's hardy to at least zone 6(OK and AR sourced ones are probably hardy to zone 5) too. Just another Elm to think about.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 5:29PM
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alabamatreehugger(8)

Lowes had Cedar Elms for sale last year. I came close to buying one myself, but I couldn't fit it in my car.

(Terry, they were at the Lowe's in west Mobile just in case you ever go there)

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 6:06PM
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Dibbit(z7b SC)

From someone on this forum over the summer, i got a link to Bruce Carly - he also sells elms, at a pretty fair price, from what I could tell. I trust the link will come through - I'll try again if not.

I believe he sells only in spring and fall - I wasn't able to take advantage this fall as I had hoped to, due to some unexpected expenses, but hope to get at least one this spring.

Here is a link that might be useful: Elms for sale

    Bookmark   January 20, 2008 at 6:24PM
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mongoosejames

I do mainly landscape maint. It is a very popular tree out here in the DFW. I love this tree. I got mine from John Deere Landscape. It is a large tree. I can see it double in size in a hurry. I however I don't have this tree anywhere near garden beds. One of my customer has this tree in her backyard with her garden. If I didn't clean her beds out in the fall she would have a bunch of babies to deal with. Hope this helps.

    Bookmark   January 24, 2008 at 12:00AM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

Mongoose James is right. it is popular in the DFW area for a good reason. It grows fast with no care. No mulching either. one of the fastest trees I've seen around here. With oak trees, you need a large area of mulching for 3-5 years for it to grow fast in the middle of new lawn. I was impressed...

Biggest knockoff is that some seedlings can be prone to ice storms due to no dominant central leader. One can look very messy with a bunch of large branches in all directions.

I'd highly recommend 'Bosque' or 'Easy Street', not regular seedlings. Much better looking.

    Bookmark   January 24, 2008 at 10:15AM
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quirkyquercus

Yes Chinese elms are invasive. They haven't gone to the top of the DNP lists yet but by that time it will be too late.

On the other hand, American Elms will grow in MS. In fact they are native!" and may not even have a high incidence rate of DED in your area (if any). Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but this was most widespread in areas with high occurance rates of elms or pure stands.

Princton Elms grown and/or distributed by riveredge farms were and still are sold at my local home depots. You might check yours. If you can't find it I will be happy to arrange shipping of one from here to there or make sure there is one if you plan to be in the atlanta area some time.

American elms have one of the largest ranges of any north American tree. They will even grow down in Miami!


photo by Joseph O'Brian Taken in St. Paul Minn.

You can't get Chinese elms to do that!

    Bookmark   January 24, 2008 at 11:00AM
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vancleaveterry

I think Princton is what I will go with. Thanks for the link to the Botany Shop, Alabamatreehugger. I hear you about DED not being a problem on the coast,... but I will only need three or four, and at $25 a piece,... why not just get the improved tree? I saw somewhere that Princton has a more substantial shape, which might be good for winds.

Thanks for your link too, Dibbet.

Quirky, thanks so much for the kind offer. How tall are those Home Depot trees? I kinda prefer little trees and usually the big box stores, as you know, sell root bound trees. The 24" trees sound like what I want.

Now a question for all of you. If the coast is too hot for DED, and elms are so adaptable, why don't I see more... ANY... down here? I am pretty good at spotting trees, but I have missed elms here entirely.

thanks for all the replys... and the wonderful street pic.

    Bookmark   January 24, 2008 at 10:42PM
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alabamatreehugger(8)

Terry, I don't see any elms in south Alabama either. USDA says they are mostly confined to wet areas in the deep south, so that may be why. My Winged Elm seeds came from north Alabama. Same thing with Ash trees, I never see them here, yet USDA shows them as native.

    Bookmark   January 25, 2008 at 1:11AM
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quirkyquercus

I could write a very long rant about how coastal areas don't sell real trees. They seem to do fine selling queen palms and crepe myrtles. I believe they just aren't hot sellers. They aren't hot sellers here either (the elms) but I believe that to be attributed to the fact that they are shade trees, huge, and people tend to want their modern day tiny yards to offer more in terms of flowers and prettiness than shade and urban cooling. The ones at home depot I believe are 10 or 15 gallon and they were originally $129, marked down to $89 and now they are 30% off. But keep in mind due to our outdoor watering ban, most tree planting has come to a screeching halt. They are about 12' high and I'm certain they are leftover from the original shipment which was..... ??? Last spring??? . They keep them out in the parking lot. I will try to search the forums and see if I can find my original post about them. At $129, I would get them from a local grower much larger, b&b but at $69 I would take a chance on it. They do grow very, very fast though so if you started out with a mail order whip you could expect to see something that resembles a tree there in a fairly short period of time.
If you're uneasy about trying elms, maybe sometime when in leaf, you can go out to a wooded area and find one and see what it looks like and how old it is etc. OR maybe you can locate the champion elm for your state and pay it a visit.

    Bookmark   January 25, 2008 at 9:45AM
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misssherry(Z8/9SE MS)

I've been hiking through MS creekside woods for years, and I've never seen ulmus americana either, not that they don't exist, but they'd have to be pretty uncommon. I've found water elm/planera aquatica growing abundantly as very small understory tree along the Leaf and Pascagoula river basins, but no American elms.
I planted a two small American elms on the edge of my woods several years ago, and they died a slow death - I may try again. I'd love to plant some water elm in the wet spots at the bottom of the hollow here - anybody know where I can order one?
Sherry

    Bookmark   January 25, 2008 at 10:39AM
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vancleaveterry

Sherry... Please describe how you planted your American elms and what you think went wrong.

Quirky... I would love to visit MS's champion elm, which I just found out is located in Vaiden, MS (Carroll county), which is a bit north of the center of the state. The tree appears to have been planted in a lawn.

    Bookmark   January 25, 2008 at 6:28PM
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misssherry(Z8/9SE MS)

Terry, I planted them before I'd discovered the magic of chicken manure, so I probably didn't add anything to the soil. They may have lost the battle with other trees and shrubs nearby, so if I plant any again, I think I'll give them more room - I think they were too crowded. I'll also mix in a little chicken manure with the native soil - that always helps.
I've driven through Vaiden many times, since my youngest daughter used to live in Memphis. It's at the intersection of state Hwy. 35 and I-55 - I'd always get on Hwy. 35 at Mt.Olive so I could bypass Jackson and all its traffic. If you go, wait until spring when the leaves are on, take some pictures and post them on this forum! :)
Sherry

    Bookmark   January 25, 2008 at 7:09PM
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quirkyquercus

It's funny how in this day and age you can log on to a great map site like maps.live.com and use the birds eye view function to look very close at trees amongst other things. Unfortunately a birds eye view isn't currently available for vaiden. OTherwise you could get a glimpse of it without leaving your seat.

I'm also curious to know what the autopsy on sherry's trees revealed. I don't think heat or lack of rainfall would be a problem. If there would be any problem at all I would guess that chilling hours not being met to leaf out in the spring. So if these were planted and died all in one season then I would say something else went wrong.

And if you're looking for elms in the wild, and expecting to find this great behemoth with the typical vase shape, you may be a little disappointed. The ones I've seen in the wild were not exactly the most attractive specimens, on the small side, scrubby in fact, not much of a vase shape or canopy. Another good reason to use a proven cultivar is that some have that vase shape and others actually not so much.

    Bookmark   January 25, 2008 at 7:14PM
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quirkyquercus

I don't know why I just thought of this now but check this link. American elm grows all over the state of M'ssippi

Here is a link that might be useful: click me for a distribution map

    Bookmark   January 25, 2008 at 7:25PM
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misssherry(Z8/9SE MS)

I planted the elms, Quirky, during the late 1990's or early 2000's when we were having those abnormally warm winters, so that may have very well been the thing that killed them. As I recall, after several years of deterioration, when I checked on them one spring, I couldn't find them - they could have been overgrown by the other trees and shrubs or not gotten enough cold.
It's certainly cold this winter, so maybe now's the time to plant one or two - I think I'll Google ulmus americana to see where I can order some - any recommendations?
Sherry

    Bookmark   January 25, 2008 at 8:00PM
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vancleaveterry

Here's a link to the Mississippi Champion Trees. The pic of the Champion Elm is there.

Quirky... I will try some 'Princton' Elms. They look a bit tougher than 'Valley Forge'. The Botany Shop seems to offer a good deal.

Thanks

Here is a link that might be useful: MS champion trees

    Bookmark   January 25, 2008 at 11:33PM
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quirkyquercus

I don't have any recommondations on where to get them from mail order sources but I'm curious to know what the sunlight situation was like where they were planted. This time around try full sun without competition from other plants if that wasn't the case originally.

    Bookmark   January 26, 2008 at 10:21AM
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misssherry(Z8/9SE MS)

They got about a half days sun - next time, they'll get more space and more sun.
Sherry

    Bookmark   January 26, 2008 at 10:59AM
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alabamatreehugger(8)

I have seen them for sale on ebay, but they were all from northern sources.

    Bookmark   January 26, 2008 at 1:04PM
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misssherry(Z8/9SE MS)

I wrote The Botany Shop in Joplin, MO a check that I'll put in the mail tomorrow for the 'Jefferson' elm. I'll see how this one does!
Sherry

    Bookmark   January 28, 2008 at 4:53PM
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alabamatreehugger(8)

Keep us informed on it. If it does well for you, I might order one next year.

    Bookmark   January 28, 2008 at 7:23PM
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vancleaveterry

MissSherry.... Why the "Jefferson" elm? Not questioning your choice, I just like hearing diverse opinions....

I am thinking "Princton" because I read somewhere they were "stouter", almost oak like. The pics I've seen of adults showed very attractive plants, with enough classic "vase" shape for me.

I wont be able to line my drive with them, live oaks already have claim to those spots. I will plant them (thinking four) in my mixed forest with about 20 or 25 feet of room to each side. Maybe I can find some spots with 30+ feet to each side.

Think that will be a suitable planting?

    Bookmark   January 28, 2008 at 7:39PM
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quirkyquercus

Yes you are correct. They have more of a shade tree canopy (the princeton) not as profound a vase shape. I will see what pics I can find to illustrate this point

    Bookmark   January 28, 2008 at 8:29PM
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quirkyquercus

I could be wrong about that last statement. The younger trees I've seen have look very full and a somewhat rounded canopy. The older trees may take on that umbrella shape after a while.

    Bookmark   January 28, 2008 at 9:16PM
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misssherry(Z8/9SE MS)

I just ordered the 'Jefferson' elm because it was $20 instead of the $40 they were asking for the 'Princeton' elm. Princeton may very well be better, but at this point, I'm just trying to see if I can get any type of American elm to grow with reasonable vigor and not die back like the other one. I don't know what the cultivar was of the other one - I can't even remember where I got it. If 'Jefferson' does well, then I'll probably order 'Princeton' later. I'll pot it up with chicken manure mixed into the planting/potting soil, since this has worked such "magic" for me before, then plant it out this fall assuming it's grown enough roots to fill up a 3-gallon container and has grown tall enough that deer aren't likely to trample it to death. I don't really care that much about the shape of it - my property is wooded, so various tree shapes sort of blend into each other anyway. If I lived on a regular suburban lot, I'd probably care more about tree shape.
Sherry

    Bookmark   January 28, 2008 at 9:39PM
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alabamatreehugger(8)

Some of them like "Valley Forge" are only recommended up to zone 7. That leaves us "deep southerners" out.

    Bookmark   January 28, 2008 at 10:30PM
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vancleaveterry

MissSherry... Did the Botany Shop tell you they are out of the small "Princtons"? Because the link (given way up above) shows them offering 18" to 24" Princtons for $25.00 a piece, or three for $20.00 each with five dollar shipping for each.

The same link shows the same deal for the 'Jeffersons" ... BUT with $10.00 shipping a piece.

That's how I read that page.
Either way, let's give them a try!

    Bookmark   January 28, 2008 at 11:04PM
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misssherry(Z8/9SE MS)

Terry, I just Googled "ulmus americana" and got the link below, which only shows a $20 Jefferson elm and a $40 Princeton elm. When I clicked the button to order mine, it said there would be a $10 S&H fee, so that's why I wrote them a check for $30. I don't know why they only list those two types on the E-bay site - I should have used Alabama's link. Maybe they are out of Princeton, I don't know.
Maybe you can order Princeton?
Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: The Botany Shop

    Bookmark   January 28, 2008 at 11:26PM
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vancleaveterry

I just ordered four of the small $20.00 "Princtons" and six small $10.00 "Nanjing Beauty" Taxodium crosses from the Botany Shop.

My order seems to have been accepted. But after reading about them I kinda want some "Jefferson" elms too.

But the "Princtons" and the four Moso bamboos I bought this week will have to suffice as this springs' purchases. No "Appalachian Red" Rebuds this year after all.

If I talk about buying any more plants... do an intervention.

    Bookmark   January 29, 2008 at 12:25AM
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vancleaveterry

"Princetons".............

    Bookmark   January 29, 2008 at 12:29AM
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dr_andre_phufufnik(Blsk, Voynovia)

That's an old photo, quirkyquercus. Look at those cars, from 20-25 years ago. The black ring painted around those trees marks them for removal. Today almost all those old elms are gone.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2008 at 8:52PM
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quirkyquercus

Yes they are gone as confirmed by finding them on a modern satellite photo. The photo was to show the kind of difference urban trees can make, especially the beauty of large elms compared to Chinese Elms which are more a medium sized tree for your garden or small lawn.

    Bookmark   January 31, 2008 at 9:20AM
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misssherry(Z8/9SE MS)

My Jefferson elm arrived today, about 2' tall and with a knotted area near the bottom where it was grafted, I guess. For some reason, I was surprised to see the grafted area - don't know why, how else could they propagate this clone?
It has plenty of roots including some that are hanging out the bottom of the little container it's in, so I think I'll pot it up to a bigger pot tomorrow. I'm looking forward to growing, or trying to grow, this elm!
Sherry

    Bookmark   February 13, 2008 at 11:15PM
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Fledgeling_(4b SD)

I live in a town that DED has not reached yet and the mature American elms are the most magnificent planted trees here, hands down.

Misssherry,
I have been looking for a opportunity to take up the topic about fertilizer and natural habitats to you, and there was something very interesting I had learned in my ecology classes I thought I should mention to you.
Did you know that research shows that continued fertilization actually decreases species richness and diversity? In long-term meadow and forest plots in the UK and US, the longer a fertilization program on the land took place, the less species there were? One decreased from, oh, I forget the exact numbers but over the course of a few decades one plot went from something like 70 species to 6. I think it has something to do with the more competitive species getting more nutrients and energy and being able through more vigorous growth to push out other species. Indeed some of areas with the most diversity of rare plants have some of the lowest soil fertility.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2008 at 11:42PM
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alexander3_gw(6 Pennsylvania)

>The black ring painted around those trees marks them for removal.

When I saw the rings, I thought they were that gooey stuff people used to put on trees, presumably to stop pests from crawling up the trunk. It was a common practice in my neighborhood in the 70s or 80s, and looked just like the rings in the photo.

The trees in the photo look healthy (although I guess wilted leaves would not be easy to discern in that photo) , why would they have been marked for removal? Did any municipalities cut down elms before they actually got sick?

    Bookmark   February 14, 2008 at 12:20AM
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misssherry(Z8/9SE MS)

Fledgeling, I wonder if they fertilized with chemical fertilizers or natural ones, like manures and/or compost? I know that chemical fertilizers can kill many (if not all) of the beneficial organisms in the soil, but manures and compost seem to increase them. I know for sure that they increase the numbers and size of earthworms. I even find lots of big earthworms in the pots I grow my seedlings in until they reach deer "untrampable" size - they must crawl up into the pots through the drainage holes. I don't use any chemical fertilizers on anything any more, just mix a little chicken manure or composted cow manure into the soil - it's worked very well for me. Since earthworms travel, they probably help aereate and fertilize the soil for pretty good distances away from where you put the manures/composts.
It could very well be that rich soils enable big plants, like trees and shrubs, to grow fast and shade out smaller plants, decreasing the diversity/types of plants that grow there. I've read that some of the worst soils in the world are in the South American rain forests - if not for leaf litter, the huge diversity of plant life there couldn't thrive.
Sherry

    Bookmark   February 14, 2008 at 3:26PM
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Fledgeling_(4b SD)

Sherry, it was natural ones, but the plant community in question to responded to changes in species a lot quicker than forests. I think some plants can make better use of more nutrients than other - while all may grow faster, there may be a bigger difference in growth between the fastest and the slowest, with unfortunate consequences for the slowest.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 1:50PM
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