Liquid Copper Fungicide

Zyperiris(Seattle)May 4, 2010

I bought this this fungicide last says it's for Organic Production. It has Copper Octanoate 0.08 and Inert ingredients 99.92. I used it when the roses were dormant and last weekend. I thought it was safe for bees..It's made by Bonide..What do you all think?

Anyway, I was really looking at my roses. The ones I planted last year in the healthy soil I provided for them..have hardly any BS. Sky's the Limit has some..but it's in a little more shade then the rest..they all look wonderful and are growing like crazy. I have 3 problem roses. A Europeana, French Lace, and Intrigue. All in pots. With about 10 looking great and these 3 are problems..maybe they should get the shovel. I bought Intrigue before I knew much..and I know she is a PITA..but so pretty when she does bloom..anyway, just thinking out loud..I do not want to use chemicals. I was told wettable sulfur is okay and won't harm the bees. I haven't had to use it yet.

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karl_bapst_rosenut(5a, NW Indiana)

I think there is no really effective organic blackspot control. If there were everyone would use it. You'll get a little protection, but not that much. When I stopped spraying fungicides 6 years ago, I ended up with severe blackspot for two years. I still get it but it's minimal except on a few bushes. Early overhead watering plus planting in sunlight so the leaves dry quickly seems to keep my roses from getting infected very much.

    Bookmark   May 4, 2010 at 1:30PM
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MichaelG and Olga use sulfur and they both are great and very knowledgeable rosarians. Sulfur, I think is relatively effective; it is organic indeed. The problem is, that if you get rain, you must reapply again - at least that's my understanding from reading past posts.

    Bookmark   May 4, 2010 at 2:51PM
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You must be careful with using copper on a leafed out rose. Some roses have absolutely zero tolerance for it and will promptly respond to being sprayed with liquid copper by dropping all the leaves the spray touches.

(I know from personal experience.........)

If you use it, make certain you try it out on only one or two leaves first for each different rose variety you intend to spray, and then over the next week or so watch those sprayed leaves carefully and note what happens. Otherwise you could end up with a naked rose. (It will re-leaf, but you'll still have needlessly set the rose back.)

I've also read Michaelg comment before about liquid copper by noting it can be toxic. That seems correct to me, although I'm not sure about the details of how & when it becomes so in a soil. (Too much sulfur isn't a good thing, either, but that can be reversed by adding ground limestone to neutralize it. I don't recall ever learning about dealing with whatever challenges copper can present.)

    Bookmark   May 4, 2010 at 5:40PM
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michaelg(7a NC Mts)

I've used copper soap a fair amount in the past with no problems. Generally, apply copper products at a time when the spray will dry promptly and not if cool drizzle is expected. I know copper oxide can hurt roses under those conditions. I have no experience with this particular product (octanoate). I think buildup in the soil would be a consideration only if you spray routinely for years.

    Bookmark   May 4, 2010 at 6:01PM
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Apparently earthworms do not like copper:

Here is a link that might be useful: 2010 scientific review

    Bookmark   May 4, 2010 at 7:47PM
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diane_nj 6b/7a

And it is a chemical.

    Bookmark   May 4, 2010 at 8:31PM
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not if cool drizzle is expected. I know copper oxide can hurt roses under those conditions.

Ah! Thank you. Now I know what happened. The roses I grow are all in planting beds where they unavoidably - all summer - get watered with the fine spray of stationary lawn sprinklers for about half an hour each morning. It's a lot more water (above ground, as the functional equivalent of a daily drizzle) than is best for the roses, but I can't do anything about it.

In any case, my situation matches perfectly the conditions under which copper spray will harm a rose.

    Bookmark   May 4, 2010 at 9:02PM
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Well, then why can the manufacturer say it is safe for ORGANIC GROWING?

    Bookmark   May 4, 2010 at 9:25PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

Actually zyperiris, just because a product says "organic" doesn't mean it's completely safe to use. It's a selling point.
You sort of have to research the product/s then make up your OWN mind on whether to use it or not.
And sometimes that's even hard as there is always many different opinions and you don't know which direction to take. I wish you the best of luck!

    Bookmark   May 4, 2010 at 10:13PM
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Well, then why can the manufacturer say it is safe for ORGANIC GROWING?

There are a limited number of pesticides based not upon the chemistry of oil, but upon the chemistry of elements. When those elements are of historic use (& yet are still regarded as mostly safe - copper is probably toxic but only in very large quantity, as compared to something like lead arsenate (a compound of both lead and arsenic that once was regularly used as a pesticide by many farmers, orchardists, and nurserymen! I remember once reading in a newsmagazine (probably Time) of an orchard in North Carolina that was sold for suburban subdivision that had soil so contaminated with lead arsenate it had to be designated as a Superfund site!) which is a seriously dangerous and long-lasting chemical no longer available for use as a pesticide) they are sometimes accepted as "organic" pesticides. Sulfur fungicidal sprays are good examples of this. I expect that "Bordeaux Mixture" is as well, although I have never used it myself. (Bordeaux Mixture is a mixture of powdered copper sulfate and powdered limestone. It was first discovered to be an effective fungicide back in the 1800's.)

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 12:42AM
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You have to realize that most chemicals in large quantities are going to be toxic. Like dishwashing soap or even baking soda. The key is taking precautions when using any chemicals, organic, natural and synthetic.

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 5:12AM
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michaelg(7a NC Mts)

"Organic" here means "acceptable under standards for organic farming."

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 8:58AM
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diane_nj 6b/7a

Organic Materials Review Institute.
Founded in 1997, the Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI) provides organic certifiers, growers, manufacturers, and suppliers an independent review of products intended for use in certified organic production, handling, and processing. OMRI is a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. When companies apply, OMRI reviews their products against the National Organic Standards. Acceptable products are OMRI Listed and appear on the OMRI Products List. OMRI also provides subscribers and certifiers guidance on the acceptability of various material inputs in general under the National Organic Program.

Download the product list. Read it. Learn about the products (including chemicals) on the list. OMRI Products List

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 9:17AM
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I work about 50 hours a week. I don't want to get a degree in chemistry..I just want to garden! DANG IT. I'm not using anything. It's easier that way

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 11:03AM
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Thank you Diane_NJ.

The following quote from your link seems to apply here:

"Coppers fixed
Status: Allowed with Restrictions
Class: Crop Pest, Weed, and Disease Control
Origin: Synthetic
Description: Copper products that are exempt from tolerance by the EPA [40 CFR 180.1001(b)(1)] may be used for plant disease control. These include: Bordeaux mixture, basic copper carbonate (malachite), copper-ethylenediamine complex, copper hydroxide, copper-lime mixtures, copper linoleate, copper oleate, copper oxychloride, copper octanoate, copper sulfate basic, copper sulfate pentahydrate, cupric oxide, cuprous oxide. Copper-based material must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation in the soil and shall not be used as herbicides.
NOP Rule: 205.601(i)(1) & 205.601(i)(2)"

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 11:43AM
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I followed Karls' advice about overhead watering in the morning and it really works. But I have to spray the really bad roses that do get alot of blackspot, here in NJ we get alot humidity. That would be Marilyn Monroe and Intrigue, I really love the blooms so I will keep them.

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 2:00PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

Zyperiris, in my garden, if I did overhead watering on my hybrid teas I would be plastered with Blackspot outta the wazoo. My hybrid tea roses hate, hate, hate!!! water on their leaves. Washing out the leaves only will wash out Powdery mildew but it will also come right back up. I am worrying that people are mixing up BS with PM. In the other thread I tried to explain about using fish emulsion-fish oils and 1/4 teaspoon of Greencure. Full blasting sunlight, fish oils-Greencure is very organic and cures Powdery Mildew 100% and it makes an excellent BS buffer. I actually stir in the fish oils with the Greencure. You want as high of a concentration of fish oils in your product (the less processed, the more raw, the better the effectiveness). Powdery mildew vanishes within seconds and stays away for a real long time for PM magnet roses. Also I think the fish oils make it harder for the BS to adhere to the leaf and changes the PH levels to a level that BS doesn't like. There's something about the higher sodium levels perhaps? I had just one Fragrant Cloud that got a fungus on its blind growth leaves that I mistook for Blackspot, I had to get up on a ladder to see it up close (very bright red patches)but it is very slowly getting stronger and better looking with the fish oil/Greencure treatment as well.

Also being that my Dad is a biochemist, I always try to get up real close to a disease to examine it. If you look at the texture of PM versus blackspot, they have completely different compositions. PM can temporarily be "washed off" but never ever! Blackspot. Look real close and you will see how this nasty thing is embedded into the rose leaf.

I am just concerned because I'm reading way too much about "washing off" blackspot when there are scientific paper after scientific papers that clearly states that blackspot spores are carried by the backsplash of water. Mature blackspot embeds itself into the leaf, loves moisture and humidity, and then releases those spores through moisture. Here are several direct links from universities.

University of Maine

Here is another paragraph from the Ohio State University.

"The fungus, Diplocarpon rosae, overwinters on diseased
canes and fallen, infested leaves. Spores produced on
fallen leaves are spread via rain or water splashed to newly
emerged leaves and stem tissue in the spring. Under ideal
conditions of leaf wetness, humidity and temperature the
spores can germinate and infect in 1 day, cause symptoms
in 4 to 5 days, and produce new spores that can infect
additional leaves, flowers and canes within 10 to 11 days.
Spores are easily moved by air currents."

University of Ohio

University of Nebraska

So don't use water to wash off the BS!

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 3:42PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

P.S. Zyperiris if you have to use sulfur/some copper occasionally like once a month, a very light spraying, no one is going to judge you for it. I seriously doubt that once a month is going to do any sort of harm to the environment. Sometimes one has to do a little something extra if one has a designer garden. But I think using the fish-oils/Greencure is gentle, easy, the roses love it, and it will reduce the frequency you need to spray sulfur significantly. I think the others gave excellent recommendations on how to apply the sulfur/copper. Just try the fish oil/Greencure combo for a little bit and see what you think...

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 3:56PM
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Serena, I am going to try your method

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 11:34PM
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