Briggs & Stratton 24 HP thrown push rod???

desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))July 28, 2009

I have a B&S 24 HP ELS series 44P777. The other day I went to crank her up and when I engaged the blades I heard a VERY load tapping sound from the left side of the engine. I removed the valve cover and there sat a push rod just sitting there. Its not bent or broken and looks to be ok??What would have caused this? The engine is a replacement from briggs (reconditioned) and has all of 20 hours on it???

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tomplum

A warranty item perhaps? Could be as simple as an adjuster not tightened properly. Could be more serious too.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2009 at 4:26AM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

Well I inspected the rod and it appears to be fine so I compressed the valve spring and popped it back on. Now my question is what is the proper valve clearence for the intake and exhaust at TDC. Is there any marking on the fly wheel indicating TDC like the Honda 24HP engine has :) Thanks..

    Bookmark   July 28, 2009 at 10:47PM
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tomplum

Be certain the rocker studs are tight. .004 is good to shoot for 1/4" after TDC

    Bookmark   July 29, 2009 at 12:31AM
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mownie(7)

Turn the engine by hand in the correct direction of rotation while watching both valves of the cylinder you are going to adjust the valves on. When you get to a point in the turning where the INTAKE VALVE begins to RISE UP (closing) and the exhaust valve is already UP (closed), you are in the beginning of the COMPRESSION STROKE. At this time you need to insert a wooden pencil or a wooden dowel rod straight into the spark plug hole until it contacts the piston. Hold the dowel firmly against the piston with one hand and resume turning the engine with the other hand. Observe how the piston pushes the dowel out of the plug hole as the piston moves toward the magical point known as Top Dead Center (TDC). At the point where the dowel movement stops, mark the dowel flush with the edge of the plug hole. Now, measure upward 1/4 inch from that mark and put a second mark. Put the dowel back in the hole, firmly against the piston and slowly resume turning the engine (in the direction of rotatation) and you will see the dowel move into the hole as the piston drops. Continue turning the engine until the second mark on the dowel is flush with the edge of the spark plug hole. This cylinder is now in the correct position for adjusting the valves ON THIS CYLINDER ONLY. Valve clearance .005" for bith valves. After adjusting the valves on this cylinder, you will need to repeat the entire procedure to get the opposite cylinder into position to adjust its valves.
You need to begin adding some upper cylinder lubricant to your gasoline (Marvel Mystyery Oil or equivalent) to minimize the chances of the intake valve sticking to the valve guide while the engine is not running. This is the primary reason this genre of engines will toss a pushrod.

    Bookmark   July 29, 2009 at 12:50AM
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jimtnc(7b Raleigh tttf)

mownie - I've got this same engine also. How much MO do you recommend adding to the gas? I already mix it with Stabil.

    Bookmark   July 29, 2009 at 5:33AM
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mownie(7)

***"How much MO do you recommend adding to the gas?
"***
Just one or two "capfuls" (cap on MMO bottle) per gallon of gas. Two stroke "fuel mix oil" can be used instead of MMO if you prefer.

    Bookmark   July 29, 2009 at 12:53PM
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jimtnc(7b Raleigh tttf)

Thanks

    Bookmark   July 29, 2009 at 1:44PM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

O.k... got the valves all adjusted, put the covers back on and fired it up. Took a short spin around the driveway and started to here the left side cylinder sounding a little funny. Removed the valve cover and there sat the intake push rod again..DISCONNECTED!! Ahhhh. Popped it back in...readjusted the valves..double checked them. This time I left the cover off and just turned the engine over with no start and pop went the intake rod AGAIN. Popped it back on and cranked it again to run idle and it stayed in place even at WOT????(Of course have a nice oil spot on the drive way. So I'm I looking at a sticking valve?? Bad Valve Guide?? What should be my next venture? Thanks...

    Bookmark   August 4, 2009 at 12:54AM
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mownie(7)

When you had the head off, did you notice any kind of mark or "dent", impression, or even just a little clean place on the piston where it might have struck the valve?? At any time in this ordeal have you removed the valve from the head for inspection of the valve and valve seat?
Of course I can't suggest you keep popping the pushrod back in place, so you might as well pull the head off and take the valve out to check it and the guide. Post the 6 digit type number so I can view the Briggs IPL for your engine, Briggs wants model and type plugged into their search box before it will work. When you popped the pushrod back in and "readjusted the valves", had the clearance changed any from where you set it initially?

    Bookmark   August 4, 2009 at 1:10AM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

Sorry i haven't pulled the head yet..just the valve covers. The adjustments seem to be holding after adjustment. The engine type is "0016 E1". Pulling the head looks to be where I'm heading, just dont have a shop manual so a little nervous. The engine is a reman. replacement from the ELS series that had the bad air filter set up on the 24hp. She maybe has all of 20 hours on it now. Its only the intake rod on the left side as your sitting on the tractor...Thanks for you help!!

    Bookmark   August 4, 2009 at 1:24AM
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mownie(7)

If you have not seen the IPL, click link below. You can save a copy to your computer.
If the adustments seem to hold, that's an indication that the rocker arm stud is staying put at least. It seems to be heading toward a defective valve or valve guide. We'll check them later.

Here is a link that might be useful: 44P777 IPL

    Bookmark   August 4, 2009 at 1:46AM
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walt2002

Do not understand why you are messing with an engine that should be under warranty and most likely voiding it.

Walt Conner

    Bookmark   August 4, 2009 at 8:32AM
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mownie(7)

***"should be under warranty"***
20 hours or so on the clock does not mean it was bought last month, so warranty might not actually be in effect, poster has not stated WHEN he acquired the engine or even IF he was the original purchaser.
On the other hand, if this engine WAS covered by a warranty, just why are you taking it upon yourself to try and fix. If in fact there is still the chance that this engine still has a warranty, you need to stop and get in touch with Briggs before you get into a situation that might even require you to buy a replacement cylinder head (or engine).

    Bookmark   August 4, 2009 at 1:26PM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

O.k IÂm not apart of the IDIOT brigade that would try to repair something still under warranty. To clear the air with warranty issues, here are the dates. Purchased the Craftsman GT5000 on April 8, 2005. Bought an extended warranty till April 8, 2008.
A sears "remanufactured" Briggs & Strat engine was installed on Dec. 20, 2007. My extended warranty expired 4 months later. So for roughly a year and a half IÂve put about 25 hours on the engine. SEARS of course is saying sorry should have bought our extended warranty at $$$. They also said that the engine that was placed in my tractor was NOT new but remanufactured, therefore it no longer has the Briggs & Stratton manufactures warranty AND I just now got off the phone with Briggs and Stratton Call Center and they said "the second engine installed warranty begins the original date that I bought the tractor from SEARS and that it doesnÂt start the date of replacement install.

I hope this helps those thinking that this could be a warranty issue. It obviously is not.

So back to the problem a listed in previous posts. Any suggestions? Thanks for the IPL mownie, it helped a lot. If IÂm reading it correctly the valve guides are not replaceable and I need to replace the whole head if one of the valve guides is bad?? I will start the tear down this evening a little at a time on that one head. Once I get it off I will report my findings Thanks..

Henry

    Bookmark   August 4, 2009 at 3:17PM
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walt2002

"poster has not stated WHEN he acquired the engine"

Thanks, mownie.

While B&S says that a loose valve guide in this series of engine is not repairable, I do have a tried and proven fix.

Walt Conner

    Bookmark   August 4, 2009 at 4:36PM
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galaris

Most likely pushrod is coming out of position because valve is not closing fast enough. For whatever reason there is too much friction between valve stem and valve guide I.D. Fuel varnish etc...

    Bookmark   August 4, 2009 at 10:09PM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

Hey thanks for the info and guidance I really do appreciate it. Does anyone happen to have the tear down specs for the heads. Not looking for a full manual freebe but just the specs for that part of the engine. IÂm real curious to see inside the head and piston camber to see whats going on. Thanks..

    Bookmark   August 4, 2009 at 10:52PM
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mownie(7)

If it comes through OK............

    Bookmark   August 5, 2009 at 2:03AM
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mownie(7)

Let me remind you that if you embark on taking this engine apart, you need to use a digital camera to record the procedure. Take pictures from several different view points. Take a photo before, and after, you remove each component. Download the photos into your computer and keep them in a folder just for your engine project. If you fail to mark your trail, you could find yourself lost when trying to reassemble. Also make notes on a sheet of paper or in a "note book". Bag & tag parts is another suggestion. You are about to invest some time (and $) in this engine, you would do well to get yourself a copy of the Biggs service manual for this engine. If you have no desire to buy the manual, you should at least do the other alternative thing with the camera and note taking. All too often, people begin taking something apart, "one screw/bolt/nut at a time", and before long......they have a "pile o' parts" and a "bucket o' bolts" with no idea where anything came from (or which way it was oriented). If you go through a few sleep cycles while waiting on parts, funds, spare time, or a sunny day, and the "Iforgots" really set in.

    Bookmark   August 5, 2009 at 11:31AM
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walt2002

Be sure and seal the bags good, when I don't put an engine back together in a couple of days, some parts "evaporate".

Walt Conner

    Bookmark   August 5, 2009 at 12:46PM
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swamadcat

Pulling the head is easier than you would think.5 bolts and your done. I found an interesing video on an alternate way of adjusting your rocker arms. It appears to achieve the same results as the briggs method, but you dont have to pull the plugs or look for TDC .
Here is the link,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGkn0jR9RJM
Pay close attention to your valve guide to make sure one hasnt slipped or is loose. This alone will cause your push rods to fall out

    Bookmark   August 5, 2009 at 4:40PM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

Hey thanks for the great advice... I will be ordering the shop manual this evening... As far as the valve guide will it be visible loose?? I agree with galaris. For the push rod to just fall out with out bending or breaking something is causing the valve to close slower. I will check for varnish ect on the valve... Thanks again guys, I will update on my progress.

Henry

    Bookmark   August 5, 2009 at 8:30PM
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walt2002

"As far as the valve guide will it be visible loose??"

No, and as far as a valve guide being loose, that results in the push rod being bent.

Walt Conner

    Bookmark   August 5, 2009 at 10:01PM
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mownie(7)

***"5 bolts and you're done."***
Were you intending to leave the exhaust and intake manifolds attached to the head??

    Bookmark   August 6, 2009 at 1:19AM
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swamadcat

"Were you intending to leave the exhaust and intake manifolds attached to the head"
I was refering to the head bolts,that hold the head on. I do however leave the exhaust manifold on.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2009 at 8:55AM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

Anyone have a part numbner for the service manual for a 44P777-0016-E1? Can't seem to find the right one for my engine? Thanks..

    Bookmark   August 6, 2009 at 2:05PM
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mownie(7)

273521 looks like the manual for 44XXXX series engines. Walt can say yay or nay.

Here is a link that might be useful: Repairs manual

    Bookmark   August 7, 2009 at 1:59AM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

REPAIR UPDATE: Well gents I removed the head (wasnÂt that hard) that was having the problem with the push rod popping our AND the intake valve looked like it was coated in some funky karo syrup. I removed the valve spring and sure enough there was a lot of varnish coating the intake valve causing it to stick or have LOTS of resistance. So I think I found the problem. IÂll assume that the other one is not much better and tear it down too once I clean this one up. I should just be able to clean this up with out any replacement parts other than new gaskets???right????
Any suggestions on a good cleaner for removing this varnish build up would be great??
I bagged and tagged all the bolts and screws (though) there was not that many but I could see with this being drawn out how some could walk awayÂ. AND my service manual should be here in a day or two.
THANKS Â
Henry J.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2009 at 1:25AM
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mownie(7)

***"a good cleaner for removing this varnish build up"***
Lacquer thinner, acetone, spray carburetor cleaner are all good for this. Plain old gasoline is even effective, and no more dangerous than the other things, regarding "fire hazard" and "inhalation hazards". If you are tempted to "soak" the parts in a solution, don't soak the valve seal (if you plan to reuse it, I actually recommend new seals). You can clean out the valve guides by putting the valve into the guide with some solvent or spray carb cleaner and then "reaming" the valve guide using the valve as "ram rod".
When you get this engine going, you will want to be certain to always use a gasoline stabilizer product AND some upper cylinder lube as suggested near the top of this thread.
The findings would almost make one wonder "just what" the reconditioning to this engine actually consisted of???

    Bookmark   August 9, 2009 at 1:44AM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

Can anyone give me a hint on how to remove the intake valve seals. They seem to be press fitted on. My manual will be here Tuesday but I have some free time tonight... pulled the number 1 cylinder head too and it wasn't as bad but almost. Went through a few dremel wire brush heads cleaning out all of the build up in both heads. The valves glide like silk now. Ordered the whole head/ valve seal kit from ebay for $22.00 and it has all of them in there so hopefully she will be back to her olÂself again here soon. Went to Wallyworld this morning and bought the MMO. Mixed up a batch and its setting in the gas tank nowÂ2 oz. for 5 gal.
I agree with mownie, REALLY makes one wonder what SEARS puts into a remanufactured engine. Briggs and Stratton should not let them use the Briggs name once they do that JMO.
Henry J.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2009 at 7:01PM
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walt2002

I take a pair of pliers, come straight down on the seal, twist and pull.

Walt Conner

    Bookmark   August 9, 2009 at 7:07PM
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mownie(7)

When you are assembling the valves into the heads, be sure to wipe some clean motor oil on the entire valve stem before putting them in the guides.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2009 at 10:48PM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

Hey Walt2002 after a little squirt of parts cleaner on the seal to remove any excess oil a pair of channel locks dialed in twisted the seal right off!!! THANKS!!

Mownie, thanks for the reminder, I actually used STP oil treatment in the rockers and valve guides. Seems to stay put till it gets its own lube flowing.

You guys are the greatest!!! THANKS!!!

Henry

    Bookmark   August 9, 2009 at 11:20PM
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oohma

Am reading this thread -- just getting into a problem -- have a B/S model 445677 type 0413 E1 on a Craftsman lawntractor -- always was low on power -- bogging under stress or heavy grass load -- seemingly ran out of power -- but still running -- removed the rocker cover to find that there is only one push rod ???? that one immediately fell off and is bent. Is it possible that this motor ran with only one push rod for almost three years ? and if not -- where is the other push rod ?? as I said -- just getting into this problem :-)

    Bookmark   August 12, 2009 at 9:45PM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

How does the other side look? Mine ran on one cylinder for about half a day. And ran good at that. WOW no push rod....something tells me that quality control was sleeping when that put that one together.

I just rebuilt both heads on mine. Wasn't really that hard. Of course heads and valves are easy..compaired to the block.

They have some real great guys on this forum that helped me a lot. I'm sure they can give you some direction...

    Bookmark   August 13, 2009 at 1:53AM
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mownie(7)

So, oohma, you bought this new? And it has been like this since Day 1? Clink on the link below and pick out which part you say fell out and is bent. I hope you noticed which rocker it was in.

Here is a link that might be useful: 445677 IPL

    Bookmark   August 13, 2009 at 2:04AM
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oohma

Yes this was bought new -- part 102A is there (bent)-- I know where it fell out of -- but I also have back up -- but we stopped at that point cause we were a bit shocked !!! I did check other side later and there are two in there.

    Bookmark   August 13, 2009 at 5:36AM
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desertdog85365(Zone 9 (Arizona))

Well got the gasket set in and work all night putting her back together. Jumped in the drivers seat to turn it over and thats was all it did turn over and over and over???? Pulled the fuel line..pump works...pulled the plug wires..plugs are getting spark...sprayed some starter fluid in the intake and she started for a few seconds??? So the carburetor was suspect....Well a carburetor tear down i found the freak'n problem..A STUCK VALVE FLOAT NEEDLE!!!! Ahhhhhhhhh. I was wondering why there wasn't any fuel in the float bowl...Duhhhhhh. Well its back together now and after a few cranks she started right up!!! Thanks for everyones help...

Henry.

    Bookmark   August 13, 2009 at 11:28PM
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thetwenty

Hi everyone.

I have the 24hp briggs els mod 446777 as discussed above in a recently acquired cub tractor/mower showing 105 hrs. It has the notorious yellow clip air filter housing. Previous owner did little or no maintenance. Started with oil smoke, ran rough. Compression showed 120 left cylinder, 60 right cylinder. Removed valve cover right cylinder, intake rod broken and 1+1/2 inch piece missing, exhaust rod bent lying loose. Exhaust valve guide was pushed toward the valve retaining washer so the rod bent when the valve retaining washer hit the guide. I was able to tap the guide back to a position approximately the same as the guide on left cylinder.

The intake valve guide seemed fine and both valves are moving freely.

Hope that's clear. Looking to understand the cause and proper repair.

Any ideas and suggestions? TIA

    Bookmark   April 25, 2010 at 4:51PM
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Robleehughes_gmail_com

I have the same engine and have replaced the push rod 4 times on the left side. First time it got sucked into the crankcase. after bending the 3rd rod - I pulled the cylinder head and found the exhuast valve sticking. Took the valve out and cleaned the valve - did not clean the valve sleeve -(My Bad). After reassembiling - it ran great for about an hr. Parked it in the garage and went out a week later - yet another bent rod! I thought about just replacing the cylinder head assembly. PS. Does anyone know why one rod is steel and the other is aluminum?

    Bookmark   February 21, 2011 at 9:01AM
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walt2002

This is a year old,long thread and I am not going to read all of it. A new thread would have been better.

The aluminum push rod will be used on the valve that is utilized by the compression release. Intake valve for Intek V engines.

I suggest you check that the valve guide is not working up to where the valve spring retainer is hitting it. IF not, use Marvel Mystery Oil per instructions on the can. The valve guide should not be over 1/8" above the head casting. IF it is, I have a fix.

Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com

    Bookmark   February 21, 2011 at 12:31PM
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druboyd

I see this is an old thread, but I have a question along the same line. I too have a 24 hp B&S that is bending push rods on one side of the motor. It did it 6 months ago and I took it to a shop that told me they replaced the push rods on the right hand side of the motor and it was " all fixed". I asked why they had bent, and the answer I got was " maybe it overheated"? Now at the end of the season it has done it again. I pulled the same cover and found the exh. rod bent and lying in the bottom of the head, and the intake rod still in place, but slightly bent. I replaced both rods, removed spark plugs and began the process to set the gap when I notices the exh. rod was bending again as I was turning the motor by hand! I stopped right there....Time to pull the head? What could be causing this? This motor only has 256 hours on it, and I have owned it since day 1. All maintenance is up to date. Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Drew

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 11:11AM
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mownie(7)

The INTAKE pushrod probably got bent due to the tendency for intake pushrods to stick to the valve guide when the engine stops while the valve is in the open position. If the valve sticks while open, the next time the engine is cranked, the valve stays open (momentarily) while the camshaft and pushrod move away. This can result in the pushrod disconnecting completely from the rocker arm, which results in an "out of socket" pushrod. Or the pushrod might "get caught" on the edge of the rocker arm adjuster socket, resulting in a "bent pushrod" as the camshaft rotates to the next intake stroke.
The bent EXHAUST pushrod is almost certainly the result of the exhaust valve guide coming loose and migrating upward, reducing the amount of travel for the valve spring. The valve spring can now only compress just a little bit before it effectively becomes a solid metal "spacer" instead of a compressible spring. At this point, the pushrod starts bending from the pressure imposed on it.
With both pushrods removed, measure the length of both valve springs. If the exhaust valve spring is measurably SHORTER than the intake valve spring, the exhaust valve guide is creeping out of place.

Because this IS such an old thread, you really ought to start a new thread of your own to address YOUR issue.

This post was edited by mownie on Fri, Oct 18, 13 at 12:13

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 12:11PM
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druboyd

Mownie-
Thank you for the info...You are correct the exhaust spring/valve compresses about 2/3 as much as the intake. Can the exhaust valve guide be readjusted, or is it time for a new head?

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 2:52PM
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mownie(7)

That the valve guide is creeping out might mean that the head has been overheated in the past. Overheating is usually caused by rodent activity, mice build nests and cache food stuff under the sheet metal which is the cooling fan ducting.
Briggs says valve guides can't be restored and that a replacement head is the answer. But, there have been threads where a guide was removed for cleaning out the valve guide and its bore, and then driven back in AFTER some peening of the bore and applying a thin coat of JB Weld epoxy to the guide.
I do not know how successful those have been.
Whatever you do be sure you take off all the sheet metal shrouding and clean out any nests or other blockage.

    Bookmark   October 19, 2013 at 12:42AM
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walt2002

I do have a fix which has been used by many and is successful. J.B.Weld will not take the heat associated with either Exhaust or Intake Valve. I have a successful fix for the Exhaust Valve furnished by another contributor which does not even involve removing the head. IF you want them, address below, put in proper format and remind me what you want.

Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com

    Bookmark   October 19, 2013 at 7:59AM
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ewalk

GUYS PLEASE START A NEW THREAD !

    Bookmark   October 19, 2013 at 9:39AM
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couger2kool

Please help,I have a 24 hp ELS briggs & stration motor that i took apart and getting it back together and now getting ready to put heads on and push rods back in, one is steel the other is alliumium, which one goes where in the head

This post was edited by couger2kool on Thu, Nov 20, 14 at 8:31

    Bookmark   November 20, 2014 at 8:10AM
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walt2002

The aluminum push rod goes on the Intake Valve. I can send you a Service Manual for your engine IF you like. Address below, put in proper format and remind me, model number and what you want.

Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com

    Bookmark   November 20, 2014 at 4:17PM
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couger2kool

Hi thank you for getting back to me Walt, my model 446677, 24 ELS, Intec v- twin, I have a brigg & stratton manual for this model, I finally got it all back together, all it needs now is to adjust the valve's ,the book didn't really say which valve rod went where ,thanks again for you help

This post was edited by couger2kool on Sat, Nov 22, 14 at 6:34

    Bookmark   November 20, 2014 at 6:01PM
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walt2002

I gave you my address above.

Walt Conner

    Bookmark   November 20, 2014 at 8:37PM
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couger2kool

Hi ,I have a manual for my motor but it don't really say much about how tight to tighten the center bolt on valve rockers before making adjustments to them and it is not clear on procedure on making the adjustments to the rockers, it says to put it on tdc and adjust the intake valve now at this time do you adjust the exhaust one too then do the other head the same,thanks with any help you can give me to clear this up

This post was edited by couger2kool on Sat, Nov 22, 14 at 8:30

    Bookmark   November 21, 2014 at 10:29AM
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