Attn bill Kapaun and Mownie

kirk39July 13, 2013

Thanks for your help
Anti-After fire solenoid valve is Shot so will order a new since i must have imagined that thread that replaced it with a Bolt (and yes it is 5/16 ) thx again

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bill_kapaun

I think replacing the solenoid with a bolt has been mentioned in a few threads over the years. Not by me though. When someone wants to jerry rig something, I lose interest.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2013 at 3:04PM
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kirk39

I know it sounds like a jury rig but this will make the third replacement and they are expensive ,for a part that according to everything I see does nothing more than stop the bang when you shut down .(SOMETIMES)

Fyi did remove the plunger and got it to run with the choke in but still dies when clutch is released

thx again

    Bookmark   July 13, 2013 at 3:56PM
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mownie(7)

OK, let's test this in a different way (sort of).
How about you just sit in the seat and keep the brake pedal down with the engine running.
Now, engage the blades and tell us if the blades engage, or not.
Or..........if the blades do engage, but the engine dies.
Or.......if the blades engage and stay engaged and the engine also keeps running........until you let the brake pedal up.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2013 at 4:57PM
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kirk39

in the seat ,engine running

(1 ) clutch in, blades do not engage engine dies

    Bookmark   July 13, 2013 at 5:07PM
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mownie(7)

I have never viewed a schematic that I would describe as "convoluted nonsense" ever before, but this schematic, and another one (917.272248) are identically idiotic.
I have absolutely no confidence in either of the schematics (the schematics are identical except for the 917. number) being an accurate depiction of anything, and certainly not actual wiring of a tractor.
If I were having to diagnose this complaint, I would disconnect the kill wire from the ignition magneto and check the kill wire circuit to see if it BECOMES GROUNDED when the seat is vacant, or the brake pedal is released.
Nothing in the schematic illustrates a safety interlock system that would kill the spark, but nearly all interlock systems DO KILL THE SPARK by grounding the magneto if certain operating parameters are violated, such as rising off the seat without applying the parking brake.
The way the tractor dies as described is exactly how a safety interlock system SHOULD work if the operator violates a safety parameter.............or when a defective condition exists in the interlock circuits.
You could also do this, but if you do, you may need to use the choke to kill the engine if it stays running.

Locate the kill wire where it connects to the magneto and disconnect the wire from the magneto.
Start the engine and do the things that have been causing the engine to die.
If the engine remains running when the kill wire is out of the circuit, the interlock system is configured in a more standard fashion (and not at all as depicted by the schematic).
And furthermore, there is a defective condition in the interlock system.
And you must realize this too, the brake pedal that locks down is just that..........a BRAKE PEDAL. There is no clutching action taking place.
Why do I make this point? To emphasize that releasing the Parking Brake DOES NOT impose any load on the engine.
Pushing down on either of the DRIVE PEDALS (on right side of tractor) will impose a load on the engine but simply releasing the brake does not.
Therefore I believe that releasing the brake is causing a defective interlock system to kill the engine and not the application of a load to the engine.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2013 at 11:57PM
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bill_kapaun

I surmise there is a ground wire from pin 87A of the OPR to the M terminal of the key switch.
I'd simply unplug the OPR to test that theory.

This post was edited by bill_kapaun on Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 1:14

    Bookmark   July 14, 2013 at 1:03AM
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mownie(7)

Yes, Bill's suggestion to unplug the Operator's Presence Relay is certainly worth trying.
And if unplugging the relay allows the engine to keep running.............those relays are available nearly everywhere; auto parts stores have them. They are Bosch style, 30 amp, 5 terminal relays and are usually less than $10 US.
I also agree will Bill's suspicion that there ought to be a grounding circuit (interlock kill) piggybacked onto the M circuit.
Where that junction is actually made on the tractor is unknown.

This post was edited by mownie on Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 19:19

    Bookmark   July 14, 2013 at 11:47AM
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kirk39

We are making progress

unplugged OPR engine runs, mower moves no blade engagement

am off to auto supply for new relay, hope I can find one I live in a one horse town

Will let you know
many thx
Kirk

    Bookmark   July 14, 2013 at 2:47PM
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bill_kapaun

It's known as a BOSCH relay.
Used for many years to switch hi/lo beams on car head lights.
When "OFF", pin 30 connects to 87A.
When current is flowing between 85 & 86, pin 30 connects to 87. (which completes the ground for the electric clutch in your application)

Look at the connector plug and see if there is a wire (likely Black) going to that terminal.

There's a possibility that you simply have a bad connection to 85/86??
Also a possibility the seat switch isn't closing and delivering 12V to pin 85.

Download the manual at the link below and look at that schematic on page 37.
I think that more resembles your wiring re the OPR

Here is a link that might be useful: Link below

This post was edited by bill_kapaun on Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 15:29

    Bookmark   July 14, 2013 at 3:20PM
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rustyj14(W/PA)

In addition--operators position on the seat gives problems too. I had a tractor here that would stop running, if ya didn't sit on the seat just right. the upholstery was torn completely off the seat pan, and it just lolled around, cutting off the engine. Installed a different seat--and problem solved! RJ

    Bookmark   July 14, 2013 at 11:35PM
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mownie(7)

The link below features another air cooled Kohler powered version (917.272421) having a single OPR.
Schematic on page 33 in this manual probably depicts an accurate version of how kirk's tractor (917.272245) is really wired, (in contrast with the schematic shown in the 917.272245 owner's manual at Searsdirect).

Here is a link that might be useful: air cooled Kohler, 1 relay

    Bookmark   July 15, 2013 at 10:43AM
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kirk39

Replaced the OPR

Engine now dies when I try to engage blades
where do we go from here

    Bookmark   July 15, 2013 at 1:20PM
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bill_kapaun

From yesterday-
"There's a possibility that you simply have a bad connection to 85/86??
Also a possibility the seat switch isn't closing and delivering 12V to pin 85. "

With the key ON-
Manipulate the seat switch. The OPR should click.

This post was edited by bill_kapaun on Mon, Jul 15, 13 at 14:11

    Bookmark   July 15, 2013 at 2:10PM
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kirk39

Checked and cleaned all OPR connections
as for the seat switch it could be the culprit its not doing anything wont kill engine when seat vacated .

Tried bypassing the switch but the blades still not will not engage dont understand that

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 2:03PM
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bill_kapaun

If the park brake is ON, leaving the seat won't kill the engine.
From July 14th & 15th-

""There's a possibility that you simply have a bad connection to 85/86??
Also a possibility the seat switch isn't closing and delivering 12V to pin 85. "

You've still not given any indication that you've checked that!
DO YOU HAVE 12V AT PIN 85 WITH THE SEAT SWITCH CLOSED?

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 9:23PM
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kirk39

Yes there is power to pin 85 with the seat switch closed

No power to pin 86,if it is indeed a bad connection it does't appear to be at the connector.
All switches and OPR are new and still have same problem engine dies when brake is released but will run when OPR is removed

    Bookmark   July 26, 2013 at 4:56PM
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bill_kapaun

Pin 86 is ground, so there should be no power.

With the key ON, manipulate the seat switch.
Do you hear the OPR clicking?

    Bookmark   July 26, 2013 at 5:32PM
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kirk39

Yes it does click

    Bookmark   July 26, 2013 at 5:45PM
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bill_kapaun

The Black wire between the Brake/Clutch switch and pin 87A of the OPR is shorted to ground somewhere.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2013 at 7:54PM
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kirk39

Summary
1.Engine dies when clutch brake released
2.Blades will start to engage with clutch/brake in but
engine dies
3.With OPR out engine runs tractor will move

Done or tried

  1. replaced all switches and OPR
  2. looked for possible shorts at OPR connector
    86/85
    3. looked for possible shorts from 87a to interlock switch

dont know where to go from here

    Bookmark   August 12, 2013 at 2:13PM
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bill_kapaun

Look at the schematic at the link I posted!
ANYTHING that grounds the M terminal of the key switch kills spark.

The Black wire between the Brake/Clutch switch and pin 87A of the OPR is STILL shorted to ground somewhere.

    Bookmark   August 12, 2013 at 4:00PM
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