How long will I have to cut sprouts from an Arizona ash stump?

roselee z8b S.W. TexasMay 22, 2014

We are having a plus 50 year old Arizona ash removed. It was here when we came 25 years ago and while I would have never planted that variety I'll have to say it has given us a nice shade for many years.

I'd like to leave the stump about 3 ft high, place a pot with plants on it and decorate around it instead of having it ground out.

We're also wanting to plant another tree within 3 or 4 ft. of the stump, probably a lacey oak. A concern is that using glyphosate to kill the Arizona ash is that it will travel down the roots affecting the growth of the new tree and perhaps even affect other plants growing within reach of the roots. I know it's been said that the glyphosate disappears from the soil very quickly, but I'm not so sure it does. Anyone have experiece with planting a new tree in close proximity to one that has been killed with glyphosate? Our yard is fairly small and intensely landscaped so there isn't much room to plant it anywhere else.

If I simply leave the stump with no treatment approximately how long do you think I'll have to cut sprouts from around the bottom before it gives up and stops making them?

Thank you for any advice you have to offer.

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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

until it dies... depends how fast you keep cutting them off ...

why not 100% round up or stumpkiller and be done with it???

round up does not work as you fear ...

i RU grass.. and immediately plant in to.. after it dries...

get some RU or SK .. and use the very expensive dripper at the link ... one clip.. one drip ... this is NOT a spray application ...

the tree guy ought to have chems to kill the stump also ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

    Bookmark   May 22, 2014 at 12:26PM
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roselee z8b S.W. Texas

Thanks for your response Ken.

Once as an experiement I very carefully dripped liquid Grass-B-Gone onto tufts of a weedy winter grass in the St. Augustine lawn, being very careful not to get it on the good grass. The weed grass died taking about a 14 inch diameter of St. Augustine with it. I'm wondering if R.U. would work the same way along the roots of the tree.

    Bookmark   May 22, 2014 at 1:06PM
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bostedo(8a tx-bp-dfw)

We planted oak, maple, and sweetgum seedlings within inches of declining hackberries and a fruitless mulberry (ok, squirrel planted the oak). After the old trees were removed, most of their suckers came up on the root collar where we nipped them off and painted brush strength glyphosate straight out of the bottle onto the fresh cuts. Did this a few times over the first season after they were cut down and they were done. The very few suckers that came up elsewhere in the root field were simply mowed down. Did not take all that much glyphosate and did not visibly damage the replacement trees, two of which were 7 ft+ saplings by that time.

Rabbits subsequently killed the sweetgum by girdling, so we ground out the adjacent hackberry stump and planted a 10 gal cedar elm within about a foot. It is growing wonderfully and even hosted a couple bird nests within its first two years - so, no apparent damage from any residual glyphosate.

AZ ash should behave similarly from what I remember of two old ones the folks removed... and certainly nothing like the suckering from crape myrtle. One thing learned the hard way from CMs is to try not to disturb/damage the lateral roots on any shrub or tree until the stump is no longer showing signs of life. We ran a tiller through the root zone of a recently removed CM and were pulling suckers out of that space for 2+ years wherever we had busted up the roots.

Good to be cautious with glyphosate use; still a lot being sorted out on its long term effects in the rhizosphere.

Here is a link that might be useful: Glyphosate and Plant--Microbe Interactions

This post was edited by bostedo on Thu, May 22, 14 at 17:41

    Bookmark   May 22, 2014 at 1:30PM
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lazy_gardens

Roselee ... If you paint Glyphosate concentrate onto outer few inches of the cut stump IMMEDIATELY after it is cut, it will move to the roots and minimize sprouting.

I "frilled" some Ailanthus, dabbing the glyphosate into the hatchet frills with a foam craft paint brush, and the plants immediately next to those trees showed no sign of being affected. The Ailanthus died slowly over the course of the next few months. I had to repeat the frilling in a few spots to get a total kill.

Use the generic glyphosate from Walmart, not the brand name from Monsanto ... it's cheaper and has no extra herbicides in it

Keep a small spray bottle of glyphosate (diluted) and when you see sprouts, spray them thoroughly and cut them off a few days later. Every sprout you do this to kills a few more roots.

    Bookmark   May 22, 2014 at 1:34PM
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roselee z8b S.W. Texas

Thanks to all for the experiences passed along and the recommendations.

Bostedo, I read the paper on glysophate and microbes. It was hard for someone not used to the terminology to follow, but it seems beneficial soil microbes are affected by RU type products. However, I'll probably go ahead and use it sparingly and carefully as possible or I'll be cutting sprouts forever. Using a brush or dripping with some sort of plastic container with a nozzel sounds good. I'm thinking the little yellow spray bottle for fake butter might work.

Lazygardens, does frilling mean roughing up the cambium layer with a hatchet so the weed killer is better absorbed? Great idea. Since the tree's center is not alive it does not have to be applied there, right?

Is there any advantage to dripping or brushing RU full strength to the cambium layer and sprouts rather than diluting it as you would if you sprayed?

    Bookmark   May 22, 2014 at 11:54PM
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jean001a(Portland OR 7b)

Triclopyr (an active ingredient) is more effective on woodies than is glyphosate (in Roundup).

Do the cut-and-paint application as previously described.

May have some sprouts the next year or so. If that occurs, remove sprout as soon as you see it; or cut it off and paint the cut surface w/ triclopyr.

The more persistent you are with the sprouts, the sooner the sprouts will stop coming.

    Bookmark   May 23, 2014 at 1:26AM
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lazy_gardens

Frilling looks like this ... the attached bark keeps the herbicide in place.

It worked slowly on the Ailanthus we had ... killing the root system means fewer sprouts than if you just chop off the top of the tree. A tree pro will remove the dead trees for us because they are in a tricky spot.

    Bookmark   May 23, 2014 at 1:56AM
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roselee z8b S.W. Texas

Jean, thanks. I'll look for something with Triclopyr in it. Don't know yet what the tree guy has.

Okay Lazygardens, I see what you mean by 'frilling'. Thanks for the picture.

It sure is looking bright out there. All that's left is about 10 ft of trunk that is yet to be taken down. The tree's estimated size was 55 to 60 ft. The limb that broke off was part rotten with what looked like a squirrel hole in it.

And thank Goodness there is no structural damage to the roof

This post was edited by roselee on Fri, May 23, 14 at 13:22

    Bookmark   May 23, 2014 at 1:20PM
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bostedo(8a tx-bp-dfw)

Roselee, Didn't want to hijack your thread into a discussion on glyphosate, so that linked article was sort of an oblique confirmation of your doubt that "glyphosate disappears from the soil very quickly." In fact, in Monsanto's own words: "...the tight binding of glyphosate to agricultural soils effectively prevents significant root uptake by nearby plants." This is what enables that nice ability of almost immediately replanting a treated area. Residual/cumulative glyphosate is not likely to be an issue for most home gardeners, but the research and debate in the agricultural space is moving me to become a bit more conservative in its use.

The fact that non-targeted plants can be damaged when their roots are intermingled with targeted plants in small containers or the glyphosate becomes mobile in hydroponics is pretty well accepted. But it's reasonably argued that these are not representative of most yard or field growing environments. The exception is the warning shouted on the Roundup usage sheets about what several of us have advised: PRECAUTIONS, RESTRICTIONS: DO NOT MAKE CUT STUMP APPLICATIONS WHEN THE ROOTS OF ADJACENT DESIRABLE TREES MAY BE GRAFTED TO THE ROOTS OF THE CUT STUMP. INJURY RESULTING FROM ROOT GRAFTING MAY OCCUR IN ADJACENT TREES.... Adjacent trees having a similar age, height and spacing may signal shared roots. Whether grafted or shared, injury is likely to occur to non-treated stems/trees when one or more trees sharing common roots are treated.

So, might not use it on a stump in a grove of similar aged oaks, but not likely to be an issue in your situation. Planting a new tree within 3 or 4 feet of the stump shouldn't be a problem as our own experience has shown... well, other than digging the hole through the roots of the old tree.

    Bookmark   May 23, 2014 at 2:11PM
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toronado3800 Zone 6 StLouis(6)

One of the problems with Roundup is it does not kill the next generation of weeds, just what you spray it on.

Now if you sprayed the center tree of a row of elms with naturally grafted roots, or one spot of some of that cursed runner grass it might be interesting to see how far a little bit of Round up goes. I would NEVER use Roundup to kill the suckers of a crabapple for example and would be careful using it near the base of a suckering tree as you never know where the suckers are popping up.

But yeah, I bet the suckers are done next year regardless and if you use Round-up it will be long gone by the time you plant in the fall.

    Bookmark   May 23, 2014 at 2:41PM
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