'Carpathian' Walnut

cacau(z5/6 CO)May 12, 2006

I bought a couple of these online very recently from Nature Hills Nursery; probably should have called them, but just tacked them impulsively onto another order. They were advertised as Juglans nigra var. Carpathian, with a description focusing on cold hardiness and nuts being the English (i.e., Persian) thin-shelled type. I assumed the nursery had stated the species in error and that it was in fact Juglans regia var. Carpathian. I have seen this variety referred to many times in the past, whereas I've never heard of a Carpathian variety of the black walnut.

Later, a friend told me he had heard of a Carpathian walnut that is a hybrid of J. nigra & J. regia, and that is what it probably is, but I can't find any reference to such a thing anywhere in books or online. When the leaves come out it will tell me something, because apparently J. regia always has 9 or fewer leaflets, J. nigra 11 or more. But if it is a hybrid, this would not be a foolproof way to identify it, would it?

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lkz5ia

"It is most commonly called "English" walnut, but it is also known by other names such as "Carpathian" walnut, and "California" walnut. The Carpathian walnut was introduced to Ontario in the mid 30's by Rev. Paul Crath. Convinced that the Persian walnut from the Carpathian Mountain region of his native Poland was hardy enough for Ontario conditions, he returned to Poland on several occasions and brought back several tons of "Carpathian" walnuts which were widely distributed over eastern North America. These trees have been successful as yard trees everywhere in zone six in Ontario, but only moderately successful as commercial trees. Persian introductions from Germany and Southern Russia have also met with the same success, while the Persians grown in California have proven to be less hardy and unsuited to our climate and shorter season."
from www.songonline.ca

    Bookmark   May 13, 2006 at 9:53AM
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cacau(z5/6 CO)

Thanks lkz. I'm pretty sure 'Carpathian' has nothing to do with J. nigra and your info goes along with that. On the ones I have, I'm looking forward to seeing 9 or fewer leaflets!

It also brings to mind the sometimes confusing distinction between a variety and a cultivar. The 'Carpathian' by usually being written in quote marks appears to be a cultivar. As I understand it, both varieties and cultivars do occur in nature, the former far more widely. However, it seems as if cultivars are unusual types discovered and then propagated by humans for esthetic and commercial purposes, without which intervention they would probably die out. This doesn't seem to be the case with 'Carpathian,' though, if it is simply a selection of cold-hardy individuals from the northern range of a species, so perhaps it's more aptly called a variety. Then the question arises of how much a plant has to differ from the overall species in order to be considered a variety (or a subspecies); is cold-hardiness alone significant enough, or are additional morphological differences required?

    Bookmark   May 13, 2006 at 2:39PM
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angus_5b(5 b Ontario)

If you're testy contact OIKOS tree crops in Kalamazoo. They have some hybrids of Black walnut and Persian/English walnut. I bought two this year and will let you know how they're doing in a decade or two. Angus

    Bookmark   May 13, 2006 at 10:22PM
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ironcloudz(Albuquerque, NM)

Speaking of Carpathian Walnut...

I bought and planetd a specimen last fall, but it did not leaf out in the spring.

It is however branching out from the root stock.

Is it worth even presrving this thing? Will the rootstock eventually orm a tree? The leaves of the rootstock look like Walnut.

Much thanks,

-stu

    Bookmark   June 4, 2006 at 5:59PM
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kman04(z6 KS)

stu,

You are probably correct that the rootstock is Black Walnut, and it probably will form a tree in time. If you let the suckers to grow and then thin to the biggest healthiest looking sprout next spring you will have a Black Walnut tree in no time.

    Bookmark   June 4, 2006 at 11:32PM
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cacau(z5/6 CO)

Do you really really want a walnut there? I tend to have a lot of patience and would hang in with it for the summer, see how much revival you get. Others would yank, no doubt (Ken in MI?). I have seen this same thing happen with new Walnut, Butternut, and Wingnut plantings here in the last two years. After severe dieback, they can make pretty good growth in a year if the root system is sound. Question is what to do with multiple stems you'll probably be getting. Another thing...sometimes the new growth starts near the ground but new buds appear later further up, i.e., the entire main stem may not really be dead yet. Don't forget also that walnuts are relatively late to leaf out.

By the way, the ones I asked about initially are leafing out and most have 9 leaflets, but some 11. The ID is still in limbo.

    Bookmark   June 4, 2006 at 11:32PM
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ironcloudz(Albuquerque, NM)

thanks for the advice, this really helps!

I will let it grow and see what happens...

-stu

    Bookmark   June 6, 2006 at 10:02AM
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pineresin

"the ones I asked about initially are leafing out and most have 9 leaflets, but some 11"

That's not Persian Walnut then - Persian Walnut usually has 7 leaflets, not infrequently 5, only rarely 9, never 11.

Could be Juglans x intermedia (J. regia x J. nigra)

Can you post a photo (or better, a scan) of a typical leaf?

Resin

    Bookmark   June 6, 2006 at 11:28AM
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pineresin

"Speaking of Carpathian Walnut...
I bought and planetd a specimen last fall, but it did not leaf out in the spring.
It is however branching out from the root stock.
Is it worth even presrving this thing? Will the rootstock eventually orm a tree? The leaves of the rootstock look like Walnut"

Depends on what you want it for. It will be an unselected seedling, which will still make a very nice specimen tree, but you can't rely on it having good nuts, they might be small, thick-shelled, sparsely borne.

Resin

    Bookmark   June 6, 2006 at 11:31AM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

resin et al ...

to simplify the label i am trying to make for my Carpathian ... please provide your best Latin name ....

thanks ...

ken

PS: .. lol ... i didn't see the reference to me way back when .. been wondering why my ears have seen ringing.. lol ...

    Bookmark   May 4, 2007 at 9:26AM
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pineresin

Hi Ken,

Juglans regia. The Carpathian ones are just a cultivar group within the species.

Resin

    Bookmark   May 4, 2007 at 9:52AM
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cacau(z5/6 CO)

Hi...I think the walnuts I have must be J. x intermedia as Resin suggests. Leaflet count is still mostly 9, occasionally 7 or 11. I don't think it would be appropriate to attach the moniker 'Carpathian' to the hybrid, right? Sorry, no camera available now to photograph leaves. For a true Carpathian I think I will have to order from Oikos. Is that where yours came from, Ken?

    Bookmark   May 5, 2007 at 12:18AM
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pineresin

"I don't think it would be appropriate to attach the moniker 'Carpathian' to the hybrid, right?"

Yep, correct!

Resin

    Bookmark   May 6, 2007 at 5:41AM
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