In search of the perfect HT: red with yellow reverse

dublinbay z6 (KS)June 19, 2011

For several years, I have been growing Gypsy Carnival which has the loveliest red with yellow reverse blooms. Just love that bloom--but unfortunately Gypsy is a total blackspot magnet, and it is driving me nuts. By the end of this season, Gypsy will be heading for that great rosebed in the sky.

Help me find a replacement HT red with yellow reverse that has some halfway decent disease resistance. Suggestions?

I probably won't be able to locate an actual rose to plant this late in the season, but at least I'd like to have some good alternates in mind to think about when I order roses in the fall.



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Tessiess, SoCal Inland, 9b, 1272' elev

Not a HT, but if you like that color combination have you seen the new hulthemia's that will be available next year? One of them is yellow with the characteristic red splash in the middle......

Here is a link that might be useful: Eyeconic� Lemonade

    Bookmark   June 19, 2011 at 2:22PM
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Kate, I think you're fighting a losing battle on this one. The color combination you love is a direct result of R. Foetida bicolor. Crosses of this species with Teas and HTs to produce the result you crave results in black spot prone plants. That genetic link is about as unbreakable as the one connecting the dark red, velvety petals and Damask fragrance with weak peduncles and mildew. Some things just go hand in hand genetically. You MIGHT find one a little less prone to BS in your area, but I fear that color combination is always going to have the proclivity. Kim

    Bookmark   June 19, 2011 at 2:57PM
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Cindy Ehrenreich

We bought a rose from Edmunds this year called "Dark Night". It's a beautiful dark velvety red with a yellow reverse. So far, no blackspot, but we spray regularly. The rose was quite a hit at our rose show yesterday.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2011 at 3:03PM
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seil zone 6b MI

I don't have it and I can't vouch for it's disease resistance but Rosie O'Donnell is a red/yellow reverse rose. I like the red/white reverse roses and have a whole collection of those. I hope to add Ronald Reagan next year.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2011 at 6:39PM
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flaurabunda(6a, Central IL)

I have both Dark Night and Perfect Moment. Dark Night is very burgundy with just the slighest hint of yellow, if you bend over the right way & look at a certain petal or two from the proper

I have Perfect Moment in the front yard, and it starts as a lovely yellow with orangy-scarlet edges. Big, perfect blooms and a so far just a medium scent. It is phototropic, though, so it will turn pinkish red eventually as the blooms age. I just posted a pic of it over on the rose gallery today. The red edges and tops of the petals are more of a ruby color instead of a deep scarlet.

It's a Kordes rose, and I always have the best blackspot resistance with Kordes roses. They also seem to grow like they're on steroids or something.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2011 at 9:48PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Thanks for the various suggestions. Perfect Moment, so far, seems the closest to what I had in mind--it's those yellow reverses that particularly attract me--but roseseek may be right: those yellow reverses are the disease-magnet. doesn't have anything good to say about the disease-resistance of the roses suggested above.

I'll do more research on Perfect Moment, just in case other rose gardeners have had different experiences, but I'm feeling a bit discouraged. If anyone else has some suggestions--red with yellow reverses--please join in and let me know.

The search continues!


    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 4:22AM
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Kate, I grew Perfect Moment from the day it came out. I gave it to my sister as she was blown away by the color, and she didn't care it mildewed like crazy. Even the creator said it was so named because there is that 'one perfect moment". Unfortunately, that moment is VERY fleeting. VERY fleeting, if there is any mildew around and if your sun and heat are intense enough to try and chase the mildew away. If you can only see it at that moment, it will melt your heart. The rest of the time, it seemed bent on breaking your heart. Kim

    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 5:03AM
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flaurabunda(6a, Central IL)

I'd heard the same thing; mildew problems outside of our area. Fortunately, it's not something I've had to contend with (knock on wood). I read the info on HMF also; it says it's susceptible to disease and only hardy to zone 7. I wonder sometimes if info on the description page is up to date or accurate because I know other folks in zones 5 and 6 grow this rose, and not as an annual.

My main criteria when choosing a rose are hardiness, color, form, and disease resistance, but I do spray sparingly for blackspot prevention. I'd be a head case if I had to worry about mildew also!

    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 8:49AM
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Kate - in case you'd be willing to accept a slight (well, perhaps a tad more than slight) color detour - I acquired Marti Gras this year and I am beyond delighted with it. It goes through various color tranformations, but essentially ends up as a pink with yellow reverse after iterating though various stages of orange, and sometimes almost red.

It is vigorous and extremely healthy, and the blooms are stunning. The finished bloom almost looks translucent and is beautiful throughout it's bloom cycle.

This photo is the closest I found on the internet to my finished blooms: Marti Gras.

It is a floribunda but mine buds in single blooms on an upright bush.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 9:48AM
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seil zone 6b MI

That photo doesn't do Mardi Gras justice. MG is hot red, orange and yellow.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 10:50AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Wow--knock my socks off! Mardi Gras is a flaunter, isn't she!

That's kinda the effect I'm looking for, but I need red rather than orange as the predominant color. This spot is right in the middle of my "red and white" bed--lots of red, with discreetly placed contrasting colors to occasionally vary the mood. The spot that will be open definitely needs red to balance out the distribution of color across the bed. The red with yellow reverse also gives me the color variation that the bed needs a touch of here and there.

As far as zone designation in HMF, my understanding is that Zone 7-10 is kind of a default category--when more definitive zone information has not been submitted. I'm in Zone 6 and usually ignore the 7-10 Zone category.

Red rose with yellow reverses (and decent disease-resistance)--where are you?


    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 11:48AM
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flaurabunda(6a, Central IL)

Me? I'm smack dab in the middle of Illinois. Decatur, to be specific.

Our local Rose society prez lives within walking distance; I generally take clues from him & other members as to what survives and what doesn't around here. They've planted roses at one of the local parks, I'm lucky that I have lots of resources & roses to observe for hardiness and disease resistance.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 11:53AM
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Cleopatra (Kordes 1997), might be acceptable colour combination, healthy.

Flaming Peace, not too far off?

K�nigin der Rosen; a bit more orange, but no particular black spot trouble. Sold lots of places here.

Las Vegas; orange with yellow reverse. I have only seen it at the local rosarium, distinct colour combination.

Mme Dieudonn� (1947); worth looking into. I have only one source for this rose here, so not the easiest to find. New this year.

Monika (Tantau 1985); no particular disease trouble in the local rosegarden, but the two colour combinatin isn't always that distinct, sometimes a bit more wishy-washy.

Rebecca (Tantau 1970); known as a healthy disease resistant rose. The only one of these roses I have in my garden (the new one is still in a pot) Colour combination might be just what you ask for Kate :.- )


    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 2:18PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Now we are getting someplace. Thank you, taoseeker, for your suggestions. Cleopatra and Rebecca just might work--assuming I can locate the plants.

I'll have to do more research, but my experience so far with Kordes roses is that they are good on disease-resistance, so hopefully that holds true for these two also.

But I'm still willing to entertain other ideas also.


    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 3:19PM
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Zone ratings can be so terribly skewed. You can have a zone 6 rated rose survive zone 4 if it's planted in a sheltered place, against hardscape which warms up and radiates heat to prevent it from freezeing while another rated to lower temps freezes in a higher zone because it's planted somewhere it gets no protection, in a hole where cold settles and remains. In my old Newhall garden, I couldn't get some roses to flower at the top of the hill because it didn't get cold enough, but if I put them at the bottom, they would begrudingly flower. I had crinums at the top of the hill, sheltered under several very large rose bushes, but they froze at the bottom and there was only about a twenty-five foot difference in elevation. The cold would pool at the hill foot so things requiring more chill hours got them. Those which hated them remained at the top of the garden.

For generations, the British have successfully raised cold tender plants against warm walls which prevented them from freezing out and often provided the heat required to stimulate them to flower. If you want to push a zone, site the plant where it will receive the radiated heat from hardscape. Along the coast. patios, walks, walls are used with terra cotta pots to provide the heat required to stimulate plumeria to flower where they don't get enough to produce blooms; enough heat to make tomatoes, peppers, oranges and berries sweet where they otherwise wouldn't get enough to form the sugars to be sweet. It's a double edged sword, though, as the radiated and reflected heat can be enough to literally cook plants in hotter areas.

If the rose is somewhere it gets what it needs to keep from freezing, even in a lower zone, it will succeed. If it doesn't, it won't. If the culture it receives is sufficient to maintain its health and vigor, it may also push the limits lower, but if the variables aren't met properly, you can easily lose roses in higher zones than they are rated for. Kim

    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 3:36PM
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seil zone 6b MI

I push to zone 7 all the time. The only thing I haven't tried yet are Teas, Chinas and Noisettes. And I'm thinkin bout it. Mutabilis is on my lust list!

I just got my ARS magazine and there is a picture of Brothers Grimm Fairy Tale on pg.38 that is drop dead gorgeous! HMF says it's orange yellow but all the pictures look pretty red to me.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2011 at 5:37PM
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diane_nj 6b/7a

Not a HT, but Regan is showing a 2012 intro, Ketchup & Mustard on their web site. I know 0 about it, but looks cool!

Here is a link that might be useful: Ketchup & Mustart at Regan Nursery

    Bookmark   June 21, 2011 at 7:14PM
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Seil, I sent cuttings to a lady in Andover, Minnesota and she's kept it alive over winter and says she's sharing pieces of it with many people. It might be possible for you! Kim

    Bookmark   June 21, 2011 at 7:50PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Interesting possibility, diane. Unfortunately, 4 x 4 might be pushing it a bit for that spot--unless I dedicated myself to regularly cutting it back a bit--but maybe it would still be the best choice.

I also wonder about its appearance. HMF has 2 pics of it--one with beautiful yellow reverses; the other has a yellow circle in the center and a larger red circle around the perimeter. That isn't quite the look I was going for.

Maybe more pics will be posted by the end of the growing season and I'll get a better idea what it will look like.

Speaking of rose names--the tradition of French names may be a bit pretentious in this day and age, but I have to admit that a rose named (let's say) Souvenir de la Malmaison just sounds more "roselike" than one name "Ketchup and mustard." I'm such a snob, aren't I! LOL


    Bookmark   June 21, 2011 at 9:50PM
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Kate, you would have wretched then at Chipmonk. Its original nickname was Peanut Butter and Jelly. That's what Laurie Chaffin and her mother Dorothy Crallie called it at Pixie Treasures before it was introduced. Ralph Moore called Vineyard Song, "Bunch'o Grapes". Ketchup and Mustard doesn't sound so weird now, huh? LOL! Kim

    Bookmark   June 22, 2011 at 1:53AM
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mgleason56(Michigan 5b)

My suggestion would be Chivalry, a 1977 HT from McGredy. I have had it for years now, and rarely notice any BS. Here is a link to a picture of mine on HMFR, but look at some of the other photos also since mine does not show the yellow reverse as well as it could.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Chivalry @ HMFR

    Bookmark   June 22, 2011 at 9:00AM
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seil zone 6b MI

Kim, it's too late for this year. It's going to get too hot and dry to plant soon and I'd be afraid it wouldn't have any chance to get well established to make through my winters. But maybe next spring. I'll have to look for a spot for it too. HMF says 10x6, although it probably wouldn't achieve that here but it's still could get pretty large. Hmmm...mighty tempting!

    Bookmark   June 22, 2011 at 12:33PM
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le_jardin_of_roses(zone 10)

The floribunda Betty Boop has red and yellow blooms. I know you were looking for a HT, but just throwing it out there.

    Bookmark   June 22, 2011 at 12:48PM
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Seil, here is a little more temptation for you...perhaps Lens' Apricot Bells and/or Patricia Beucher might be a bit more cold hardy for you? They are bred from Trier and Mutabilis. There is also Plaisanterie, which I don't grow...yet, but I do have the other three in case you're interested. Both Apricot Bells and Patricia were my first successes with the cutting wrapping method. Kim

    Bookmark   June 22, 2011 at 1:43PM
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Dream Come True?

    Bookmark   June 23, 2011 at 3:50PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Thanks for the suggestion, harmony, but Dream Come True, gorgeous as it is, is actually the opposite of what I'm looking for--it is yellow with red reverse. I'm looking for red with yellow reverse. But Dream Come True is a terrific looking rose, isn't it.


    Bookmark   June 23, 2011 at 7:42PM
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    Bookmark   June 23, 2011 at 11:57PM
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kitcatclub(z5 NY)

Not an HT, but Paul Barden's Dolly's Forever Rose is spectacular. I think it is considered a shrub rose but it stays compact in my garden and is always covered with flowers. The picture Rogue Valley has is exactly what it looks like in my garden. It's fairly tough, too - I haven't noticed disease being a problem, though I can't say much about mildew. BS is the disease du jour here!

Here is a link that might be useful: Dolly's Forever Rose at Rogue Valley

    Bookmark   June 24, 2011 at 12:33PM
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Susan - your photo of Dark Knight is STUNNING! What do her blooms look like when they open - do they retain their color well? She is gorgeous.

    Bookmark   June 24, 2011 at 12:37PM
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    Bookmark   June 26, 2011 at 4:33PM
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Perfect Moment gets some rave reviews on hmf and has many favorite votes. One person says her plant has a 5' circumference. Very long lasting blooms. One person says that it may become their favorite rose out of their 350. Sounds like it's worth a try to me.

    Bookmark   September 9, 2012 at 9:12AM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

I had Forty-Niner many years ago at another house. I will buy it again if it becomes available. It's a very good red with yellow reverse. I sprayed regularly though, so I can't tell you about resistance.

Forty-Niner at HelpMeFind

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 9:57PM
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I have a 1/2 Time from Weeks in 1982. It looks like ketchup and mustard. Completely covered in thorns but every flower is perfect. And they stay that way until they drop. A weak grower and a stingy bloomer but the spring crop of roses makes it worthwhile. I was thinking of getting K&M to see if it was just as pretty a flower. I saw on HMF that no one has it anymore. Am I the last person growing this rose?

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 11:34AM
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petaloid(SoCal 10a/24)

Susan, Harmony -- I'm pretty sure that is Dark Night, not Dark Knight.

I grow that one and like it, though the blooms are on the small side. As Kim said, it has a tendency to blackspot, so it would need spraying.

Gorgeous photo, by the way.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 5:41PM
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Kate---Do yourself a favor and buy Dark Night. Put it in a 5 gal. pot and grow it for a year and make your own decision. I'm not a big red/yellow fan but I do grow Dark Night. It has earned it's spot in the garden. The blooms arn't huge but I can live with that. Besides the beautiful bloom I REALLY like the growth habit and foliage. Beautiful deep green foliage that comes right up underneath the bloom. Not like a lot of HT's that have a big space between the foliage and bloom.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 1:04PM
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I broke down and bought Ketchup & Mustard early summer. I'm quite pleased with her. Blooms are very small (so far), but buds are quite perfect showing clear color distinction, and open blooms are distinctly yellow in center and red on outside. No fragrance, but an enjoyable addition to my garden. Not at all gaudy as I first thought she might be.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 10:37AM
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roseblush1(8a/Sunset 7)


Just now, when I was updating plant characteristics on HMF, I came across 'Paula Smart', synonym 'Smart & Sassy' bred by Brad Jalbert out of Canada. His BREEDER NOTES says it is very disease resistant.

You might want to take a look.


Here is a link that might be useful: Smart & Sassy on HMF

    Bookmark   September 16, 2012 at 10:38PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Wow--that was over a year ago that I asked my question about a red with yellow reverses. Appreciate folks still making suggestions. For some reason, Ketchup & Mustard and some of the others just don't make my heart sing, but I will keep Smart and Sassy and Dark Night on a reserve list, for future reference.

I don't remember why I did not dig up Gypsy Carnival last fall or this early spring--probably just got too busy with other things--but this year Gypsy has been shaping up a bit--not as many disease problems and its actually growing fuller so it looks more like the floribunda it is supposed to be. On the other hand, this past summer has been so hot (over 100 degrees almost ALL SUMMER) that most of my garden shut down, so I'm not exactly sure where things are. We are now moving into cooler fall temps, so maybe that will tell me if Gypsy is moving toward her full potential--definitely next spring should.

I guess I'll wait and see. I do love her BIG FAT blooms and I've worried over her for so long--now that she seems to (maybe) be hitting her stride, I kinda want to be there to see how it turns out.

But I do appreciate everyone's continuing interest. If next spring Gypsy once again becomes a BS mess, I've got my reserve list handy. Thanks.


    Bookmark   September 17, 2012 at 11:07AM
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