Nice Burr oak from Dax acorns

poaky1July 17, 2013

I had sown several acorns from Dax, but kept one of the best. I will take pics. I kept only one of the sprouts for lack of space. I am happy the Burr oak is of Northern source from what I remember. It has done over 2 ft in it's first year in my yard,closer to 3 ft, Yahoo. The other Burr oak in my yard is not from up north and from what I've read will possibly not get as wide, but you can't be sure what you hear is really fact.

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whaas_5a(5A SE WI)

Anything special about these acorns? Dax is know for finding fine selections.

I wan't to get that December Red Oak he found!

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 9:06PM
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poaky1

I THINK they are from a Champion in Dax's area. Not sure though. . I used the pipe for now because we are swamped with bunnies this year and one ate a Live oak "late drop" that I planted. We have cats but the adult bunns are as big as most of our cats. They are so rampant there are bun poo balls all over the yard farthest from the house, free fertilizer anyway. It looks pretty big so far, this is it's first season from last fall acorn plant. The pipe may have made it tall vs wide. My other Burr oak was from down south, I wonder if this one will differ in any way.

    Bookmark   July 20, 2013 at 10:38PM
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gardener365(5b Illinois USA)

Poaky, glad to see your post. Thanks for sharing. Yes, those seed(s) are from Clark Co. IL and Lawrence Co. IL. Lawrence Co. seed is egg-shaped while Clark Co. is round. They're from the northernmost range of large acorns anywhere in the US and came from trees that are give or take 300 years old. Indeed champion trees.

My friend from Clark Co. whom sent me the seeds took photos:

Clark Co. IL Q. macrocarpa

Clark Co. IL Q. macrocarpa - seed ortet tree

Lawrence Co. IL Q. macrocarpa

===========

Will, I'll graft 'December Red' not this winter but next. This winter I'm grafting a Q. virginiana found in zone 6, Kentucky, that's old and hardy! I'm doing an entire flat of them. They'll be grafted to macrocarpa.

===========

Poaky, I labeled the acorns when I sent them as to which county.

Also, I only had (2) Q.georgiana pop! When I get more seed and grow them again, I'll send a plant.

===========

Dax

    Bookmark   July 23, 2013 at 12:58PM
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gardener365(5b Illinois USA)

I added photos to my album of Oaks from The Wabash Valley, IL. The only tree not from IL is the Knox Co. IN native Q.shumardii(s) and the non-native Q.robur with slender acorns - which is cultivated and planted in either Clark or Lawrence Co. IL.

Best Regards,

Dax

Here is a link that might be useful: Illinois: Wabash Valley Oaks Album

    Bookmark   July 23, 2013 at 1:39PM
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poaky1

That's interesting about the grafting of Q. Virginiana to Burr oak roots. I had thought it was the buds on QV that aren't hardy. I have had 3 whips of Live oak "late drop" from Mossy oak native nurseries survive last winter. I know that I should wait for more winters to get too happy about it. Here is my latest pic of one of them It is the tallest green thing against the wood fence. It was planted in spring of 2012. I love your pictures, the Shumard oak looks the best, I hope mine gets nice big branches like those you can see in your pic. Thanks for offering Q. Georgiana, but they are small aren't they? In my yard I am pretty full of big oaks potentially big oaks I should say. If the "Late drop" live oaks don't make it this coming winter, I may have space for a few more. My other 2 Live oak Late drop from last winter are growing okay, but I forgot to take pics of them.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2013 at 11:33PM
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gardener365(5b Illinois USA)

georgiana is a small oak that might be 12' tall in 20 years. The one I collected corns from was that height and age. It basically looked like the form of a lilac that's 10-12' tall.

I don't know what "Late Drop" Live oaks are. What is that? What provenance does it come from?

I mentioned that I would be grafting Quercus virginiana (may be fusiformis) to Quercus macrocarpa so if someone googling was looking for a compatible understock, they could come across this thread.

Either??? Q.virginiana or fusiformis, however this is the tree (pl. 1964) Northern Kentucky. Has seen -20 F

Either??? Q.virginiana or fusiformis, however this is the tree (pl. 1964) Northern Kentucky. Has seen -20 F

Either??? Q.virginiana or fusiformis, however this is the tree (pl. 1964) Northern Kentucky. Has seen -20 F

Dax

    Bookmark   July 25, 2013 at 4:00PM
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poaky1

Sorry for taking so long to reply about the Live oak "Late drop". I am in zone 6. Smock, Pa 15480. I ordered 3 Live oak "Late drop" seedlings from MOSSY OAK NATIVES NURSERY, online nursery in SPRING 2012. They are doing great as of Aug 4, 2013. Dax, as far as I know they are still available from Mossy oak natives. You are zone 5b, maybe in a sheltered area in zone 5b it can make it? Or can be a good graft partner?

    Bookmark   August 4, 2013 at 2:32AM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

Dax, it looks more like Q. fusiformis to me. They are everywhere around here. Q. virginiana seems to have larger, more roundish leaves and get a lot bigger close to the coast where they get more rainfall and deep soil as well.

I went for a walk to where the new elementary school is being built, they built this retention pond exposing "topsoil" on top of solid bedrock. It looks to be just 2-3 feet of topsoil where Q. fusiformis trees are. Where I live is known for its dangerous flash floods due to hilly shallow soil. Can get dangerous if caught in heavy sudden downpour in the wrong place.

    Bookmark   August 4, 2013 at 10:57AM
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joeinmo 6b-7a

Hmm...not sure if its a live oak at all. It appears to be a Laurel Oak, which can look like a Virginiana Live Oak from tree to tree.

A couple of differences, the Tree in the photo has multiple trunks, Live oaks have a single trunk with spreading branches. In Laurel Oaks, it's not uncommon to have a multi-trunk tree.

Both trees stay green year round and then push out new leaves in Spring, both have leathery leaves. However, in the Laurel Oak the leaf may appear a yellowish green or olive green in winter. Kind of an unusual new growth cluster for a live oak, havent seen that before, but I guess not impossible.

It's not a Fusiformis, also a single trunk tree, but Fusiformis leaves are different from Virginiana and Definately Laurel Oaks.

Fusiformis have the characteristic bump on the leaves from young new growth until almost fully mature, when the leaves smoothen out, and even on most Fusiformis there are some mature leaves that retain the bump. This s not evident on the leaves in the photo.

Last, Fusiformis do not have that 5 leaf growth pattern, they are all over the place, but generally grow in two's with every new 2 leaves offset 180 degrees.

Laurel Oaks grow somewhat more northerly than Southern Live Oaks, throughout most of Virginia, North Carolina and some maps even showing a tiny portion of extreme SE Pennslyvania.

Laurel Oaks are more cold hardy, down to -10. Still even if it's a Laurel Oak, kind of rare for northern Kentucky. I would like to see an acorn from the tree, that would really tell a lot.

    Bookmark   August 4, 2013 at 6:30PM
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gardener365(5b Illinois USA)

Hi,

To add to this, the fella that lives near this oak, says:
"It is growing as a 'copse', which might make one think Q.fusiformis; but I've also considered that that could also be the result of freezing back early in its life - or being run over with a mower or girdling with a string-trimmer at some point, It's had the same 8 or so main trunks for as long as I've been watching it. There are some small rhizomic sprouts here and there in what's left of the mulch bed that surrounded it at some point in the distant past."

I'm sorry, I cannot take the discussion any further, myself. I'm just one of the grafters.

joeinmo: I'd like to hear your response to that set of statements above. I do appreciate your input.

Dax

    Bookmark   August 5, 2013 at 10:51AM
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lucky_p

Guys,
It's me - and those are my photos. Have acorn photos somewhere, but don't know if I can find 'em.
Not laurel oak - I'm pretty sure it's virginiana or fusiformis - but, again, I'm not a botanist or taxonomist.
Dax, the tree is in southern KY - just 20 miles or so north of the TN state line - not northern KY.
It's not the only live oak doing well in KY, however. I have a colleague, a retired agronomist from Murray State U., located probably 70 miles west of me, who has a number of Q.virginiana &/or fusiformis, grown from acorns he collected over the years on travels around the country. Some are well over 25 yrs old, and - last time I spoke with him - none have sustained significant winter damage.

    Bookmark   August 5, 2013 at 5:17PM
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gardener365(5b Illinois USA)

It's exciting, Lucky, thought I'd share..... hope you aren't offended in any way.

Dax

    Bookmark   August 5, 2013 at 9:07PM
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joeinmo 6b-7a

Dax,

Could be freeze back, but now that it's in Southern Kentucky I doubt that would be the case.

I have seen a lot of live oaks especially the Fusiformis, and they just don't grow that way. While you may see many seperate Fusiformis trees growing close together in a copse, this appears to be one tree with different trunks - very strange. Not saying its impossible, these live oaks spread through their roots, but the trunks are very similar in size like they started growing fairly close to the same time, while if they were new trees from roots you would see small trees next to larger ones. In addition, those leaves are not Fusiformis, just aren't. They look much closer to Virginiana or maybe a cross between the two. While a Fusiformis in southern Kentucky would be near the far reaches of its growing zone, 6b, I think totally possible. I have mine growing in SW Missouri without problems whatsover in the same zone with 7a just 20 -30 miles south. However, a Virginiana, that would be more unique tree to see that far north, it's also possible I think in 6b, just much much more fragile at that zone. The acorns would tell the tale, Virginiana are unique and Fusiformis different yet.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2013 at 12:42AM
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lucky_p

Joe,
This tree is on the campus of the local community college. 'Groundskeepers' there could very well have mowed it over with a lawnmower or girdled it with a string trimmer early in its life, resulting in a multistemmed habit - and there have been an occasional severe winter (1978/79 were pretty tough, from what I've been told) that could have knocked it back to ground level.
Photos Dax didn't post show that they routinely park tractors, equipment, junk, piles of rock, etc. on the root zone of this tree, as it's located just outside the campus maintenance & equipment shop. I'm pretty sure they don't know - or care - what it is or what it needs...

    Bookmark   August 6, 2013 at 4:43PM
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joeinmo 6b-7a

Lucky,

That could explain some multiple trunks especially if they are using the root zone as a place to store stuff, for shame.

If it is a live oak, I'm sticking with a Virginiana, would love to see pics of the acorns, It would tell all and would like some too.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2013 at 8:06PM
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poaky1

Dax, or anyone. The Live oak "late drop" is described on the Mossy oak natives website as being a possible cross or backcross of live oaks, which ripen their acorns later than regular Q. Virginiana. They are listed as zone 7 minimum zone hardiness. When I read that it was a possible back-cross of live oak, I ordered 3. All 3 survived my last winter, and are growing good, one looks as though it will be going on 2 feet of new growth before the growing season is over. I am zone 6, I am hoping it does good in the winter of this coming year. I have a Q. Alba growing close in case it dies this winter. I have tried 3 Q. Virginiana, one from Virginia, it's northern limit and all 3 died so I am hopeful for the "late drop". I have 6 or 7 in various areas of my yard, they are cheap, if I fail, I fail.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2013 at 12:39AM
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poaky1

Bump

    Bookmark   August 9, 2013 at 12:54AM
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