Is this the invasive I think it is? (pic)

eric_in_tn(6b TN)July 16, 2007

I noticed this at the edge of my woods a few weeks ago. At first I thought it was a type of sumac, but now am thinking it might be an invasive "Tree of Heaven". Is that what it is?

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treeguy123(AL 7b)

Yes, it's the invasive Tree-of-Heaven (Ailanthus altissima)

    Bookmark   July 17, 2007 at 12:23AM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Please double check. In case they are toona sinensis, immediately notify local Asian community.
They will all gone by next spring. My favorite is toona sinesis loaded scrambled egg, delicious.

    Bookmark   July 17, 2007 at 1:12AM
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lkz5ia

When in doubt, crunch a leaf. Being young, it'll be easy to take out. Some individuals go overboard with chemicals like it was spawned from satan himself.

    Bookmark   July 17, 2007 at 2:02AM
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pineresin

Yep, Ailanthus altissima.

Resin

    Bookmark   July 17, 2007 at 3:55AM
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quercus_macrocarpa(5b)

Destroy it at once!!!

    Bookmark   July 17, 2007 at 10:33PM
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calliope(6)

OMG, I must have found at least five hundred seedlings in my vegetable garden this spring, and wondered what kind of "weed" it was. I few of them escaped my hoe and in a matter of a month, were a foot tall. ARgh.........it was pretty obvious in that short of time they were stink trees. I don't think I have ever seen a tree of any kind spawn that many babies under itself so prolifically. The mother tree just appeared there about ten years ago and we knew better and should have whacked it down then. Now the cursed things are moving into our woods. They are worse than bradford pears, and multiflora roses.........if that is possible.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2007 at 1:16AM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Calliope, it seems you have a little problem.

I wouldnÂt mind multiflora roses taking over my garden though Â

    Bookmark   July 19, 2007 at 10:32AM
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calliope(6)

LOL boy that is just absolutely gorgeous!!!!!!! The ones taking over my field, however, are the pathetic remnants of attempts by humans at distributing great erosion control plants. The trunks will quickly rip out the guts of some tractor implements. Even after you have grubbed out the plant, the seeds and there are up to a million of them per plant remain viable for up to two decades.

    Bookmark   July 19, 2007 at 12:51PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Now, what is this?

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 12:56AM
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esh_ga

snaxs, where is this plant located? That helps to know.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 7:17AM
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quirkyquercus

It may also be sumac but either way I'd take it out and make room for some more tulip poplars.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 8:25AM
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lkz5ia

Chinese tulip poplars?

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 10:48AM
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quirkyquercus

No! not Chinese tulip poplars!
Liriodendron tulipifera
Like the ones in the background of the photo that OP posted.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 11:44AM
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lkz5ia

Well, why would snasxs plant American tulip poplars. The image has a website stamped on it that is chinese.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 12:45PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Okay, I find it. The plant in the picture is Pterocarya stenoptera of the Juglandaceae (walnut) family. It is a unique large tree up to 82 ½ feet. The plant and its leaves are resinous to the touch and emit a resinous aroma. The blooms are fragrant. However, the plant requires moist soil. It prefers loamy and heavy soils. It cannot grow in the shade. It is a frost tender hardy to zone 7.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 2:04PM
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lkz5ia

Yes, it looks like a pterocarya species. I was about to reply and say the same. The leaves smell similar to the relative genus juglans.
Now, for my turn...... Guess what this is. snasxs should be able to guess it right.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 2:21PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Some kind of mimosa? Lol, sorry.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 3:00PM
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quirkyquercus

I'm not sure I understand, lkz... The OP in in TN, the state tree of tenn... You guessed it, Liriodendron tulipifera. Is there some benefit to using the Chinese tulip poplar that I'm not aware of? Sort of like using london plane as opposed to sycamore?

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 3:47PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

quirkyquercus, this website (http://www.kew.org/plants/trees/tuliptree.html) says (quote):

"The North American species of tulip tree, Liriodendron tulipifera, was first introduced to Britain in 1688 and a specimen planted in the 1770Âs still grows in the Azalea Garden off Princess Walk. The Chinese tulip tree, Liriodendron chinense, a far superior species, wasnÂt introduced until 1901 by Ernest Wilson."

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 5:29PM
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lkz5ia

quirkyQ, yes, there would be no reason for the OP to plant chinese tulip poplars. I thought you were referring to snasxs, since your post came directly after he/she posted a pic.

But there would be a reason to plant London Plane tree over American Sycamore: offering hybrid vigor and anthracnose-resistance.

snasxs, the image was of my toona sinensis seedlings.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 6:41PM
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eric_in_tn(6b TN)

Yes, those are Liriodendron tulipifera (ie tulip poplar or yellow poplar) in the original pic. They are native to this area and are all over the place in my woods.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 7:20PM
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quirkyquercus

And one thing I learned the hard way is enjoy every minute of having such a bounty of that great tree. For one day it could be all gone.

LKZ- agree on the London plane issue. Also would add that the variety of LPT that I got last spring has the showiest bark I've ever seen on a tree like that. Much showier than native sycamore. I will say this though, the LPT doesn't seem to be a s fast growing as sycamore based on other LPT's I've seen in the area.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 7:26PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Lkz, I see. Do you use these yourself? I really love the flavor of toona sinensis. For people who havenÂt tried, it is a unique taste. Imagine a new cilantro; of course the two tastes have nothing in common.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 9:58PM
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Carrie B

Toona sinensis can be pretty invasive as well. Not nearly so well distributed as ailanthus, but showing some disturbing invasive tendencies here.

    Bookmark   August 3, 2007 at 10:22AM
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lkz5ia

Yes, I would agree. Toona seed germinates quite readily, but the tree has more value than the ailanthus. Pterocarya could be more invasive than the previous two mentioned, if animals would plant the little nuts.

snasxs, I haven't had a chance to try toona yet. First, I have to see if the seedlings survive the winter, then I have to wait a couple years until they are big enough.

    Bookmark   August 4, 2007 at 10:30AM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Only collect the new shoots with unopened or half-opened baby leaves. The stems connected to the leaves are also tender and delicious. Yummy. In your picture, you can use the one new shoot in the middle.

Carrieb, I am close to Philadelphia. Can you give me the detailed locations of these plants? I will bring friends for a toona sinensis-collection weekend tours. I promise you they will not last long.

    Bookmark   August 4, 2007 at 2:28PM
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Carrie B

snasxa, several problematic toona colonies exist in Faimount Park, in Philadelphia. Even if I could remember exactly where they are in the park, I would be afraid of people collecting plants to plant elsewhere, where they could also become a problem.

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 9:50AM
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lkz5ia

lol snasxs, carrieb wants all the toona leaves for herself.

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 10:04AM
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stimpy926

"Tree of Hell", Ailanthus altissima, has got to be the worst invasive, right up there with oriental bittersweet, around my region. The bittersweet vine climbs up the Ailanthus, up to the power lines and other roadside trees-trying to get a foothold amongst. It climbs the trees in any open area, forms thicks trunks around the tree, crippling the host. I pull the seedlings of both every day around my acre property. I have visions of them both climbing over the house and into the windows, strangling everyone inside, if left unattended. I saw the township tried to stem the tide with vegetation killer a couple years ago, but it's like peeing on a bonfire. A neighbor up the street actually 'saved' a hell tree growing in his front yard, he was obviously going to have it as a speciman tree in his front yard. Fortunately, somehow he was clued in, as it's now gone. Wow, 1 down, and billions to tackle.

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 10:31AM
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Carrie B

Yes, send me your hungry, your poor, your goutweed, bindweed, ailanthus, pawlonia. Your purple loosestrife, your bradford pears, your pinellia and your lesser selendine. Then send me your hudled masses...

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 10:32AM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Carrieb,

I am 3.5 hours away from Philadelphia. Now I am fantasizing bags of toona in my refrigerator. The tender shoots of toona are delicious treats. I love them. I wouldnÂt worry about transplanting. Normal people have little interest in growing these. It is not worthy/too much work.

I think the Asian communities in Philadelphia donÂt know such colonies exist. They do not know whether they are encouraged to collect the vegetable. e.g. without approval, I wouldnÂt go to a public park, climb a tree, and remove all its new shoots. Are there Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. churches that you know of? or Asian student organizations of the several big universities nearby. Believe me, it is like telling quirkyquercas there is a field of marijuana somewhere.

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 10:45AM
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Carrie B

You don't have to climb anything to get new shoots from a toona colony. In the two instances I witnesses, there was one big tree, surrounded by hundred, maybe thousands of tree babies. I can't speak for what Philadelphia's Asian communities know or don't know about trees in the park. Only that the toonas are worrying some people who are doing conservation work.

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 11:52AM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

carrieb, I donÂt hear they spread. Do they come to North America around the same time as tree of heaven? Anyways, I think it is safe for you to release the location of this one tree. These are not overly ornamental. I doubt anyone would be interested in transplanting these. The reason I bring up Asian communities is that they destroy these plants efficiently. They are driven by self-interests.

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 12:18PM
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pineresin

"Do they come to North America around the same time as tree of heaven?"

Don't know about North America for certain, but in Britain, Ailanthus (1751) was introduced over a century ahead of Toona (1862). I'd suspect the dates for North America are similar.

Resin

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 4:20PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

What is this tree?

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 4:40PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

and this one!

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 4:42PM
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pineresin

First is Wild Service Tree Sorbus torminalis, second is European Rowan Sorbus aucuparia.

In both, the fruit is edible if cooked (with lots of sugar!), but not as it is.

Resin

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 8:02PM
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lkz5ia

Here's a very good article on tree of heaven.

Here is a link that might be useful: tree of heaven history

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 9:23PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

How interesting. I look forward to try these lovely fruits and seeds. I love sweets. I will use splenda which has no calorie. Thanks.

Nobody disturbs the fruits here. They deliver thousands of seedlings near the mother trees. Some people like quirkyquercas do not know these are not native.

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 9:28PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

I am talking to pineresin UK about the sweet fruit-dish in my previous post.

Wow lkz, thanks for the impressive Harvard paper.

I learn that Ailanthus in China are trees with straight tall boles and rather flat crowns.

Ailanthus has divided leaf blades which provide the largest possible surface area for effective photosynthesis with oxygen as a by product released into the atmosphere.

They are great renewable and cheap source of charcoal and firewood for supplementary house heating.

Ailanthus trees are great honey source producing high quality honey with delicious rich muscatel flavor.

Etc..

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 10:03PM
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alabamatreehugger(8)

We don't have a problem with Ailanthus here in SW Alabama (yet), but I did see plenty of it in eastern Tennesee. It seemed it was mostly growing in waste areas, such as ditches and near bridges. I knew it wasn't sumac, because it was bigger then any sumac I have ever seen.

Resin, is Ailanthus now considered a pest in the UK like it is in the US?

    Bookmark   August 8, 2007 at 11:20PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

"I don't want to feel like I'm in China because 75% of the plant life is Asian (in Alabama)."

Alabamatreehugger, I hope you understand this is impossible. Many plants escape the last ice age over there. The diversity is not at the same level. I include a couple pictures of Southern China. Please compare these to Alabama.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2007 at 12:15AM
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treeguy123(AL 7b)

Why did you not look at the web sites snasxs were you got the pictures? Just wondering why.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Service_Tree

http://www.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/boga/html/Sorbus_aucuparia_Foto.htm

    Bookmark   August 9, 2007 at 12:19AM
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pineresin

"Resin, is Ailanthus now considered a pest in the UK like it is in the US?"

Generally, no; the summers here are too cold for it to grow very well. It's a decidedly rare tree in my part of the country (I only know of two in my city, neither of them very large). In southeastern England where summers are warmest, it does cause some minor problems, but nothing like as bad as it is further south in Europe (it's a major invasive menace in e.g. Bulgaria*) or the eastern US.

* The other major invasive menace there is Robinia pseudoacacia (Black Locust).

Resin

    Bookmark   August 9, 2007 at 3:48AM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Rineresin,

Thank you. I will definitely try your sweet recipe this fall. I notice a couple more in my neighborhood.

What are these beautiful foliage and lovely berries?

Âand this one, it is sooo lovely:

    Bookmark   August 10, 2007 at 10:21AM
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pineresin

First one is Sorbus mougeottii, second (as noted in the image name!) is Sorbus aria, third (as also in its file name!) is Arbutus unedo.

Point of order: linking photos like this from other websites, unless they are your own photos, is illegal (breach of the photographers' copyright). Please don't do it!

Resin

    Bookmark   August 10, 2007 at 10:40AM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

I am unaware of this. Do you have a link of the related law? Does it apply to public websites for educational purpose? There is an easy technology for source-site to disable remote link. I wonder if they do not mind.

    Bookmark   August 10, 2007 at 11:06AM
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pineresin

Hi Snasxs - You'd need to look at any individual copyright licenses with the photo. Whether an educational-purposes license would be valid here, I'm not too certain; in a sense, we are dealing with education here, but equally Gardenweb is a commercial site, and they say somewhere in their small print that they reserve the right to use photos posted for their own commercial ends. Most educational licenses don't allow commercial use, and if the GW management are going to use posted pics commercially, it's best not to post them in the first place. Generally, best to limit posting pics to ones you have taken yourself, or those which are certain are in the public domain (such as US federal gov't photos).

Resin

    Bookmark   August 10, 2007 at 7:08PM
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quirkyquercus

snasx,

I realize you are in the DC suburbs and you might experience some degree of white supremecy there.... (Possibly?!?!) however please understand that this issue of invasive trees in no way, shape or form has anything, whatsoever, to do with intolerance of other people's ethnicities or national origins.

It seems like you're making a connection between invasive trees and the whole border security slash hatred of other ethnicities or national origin but that is not what this is about.

Furthermore, nobody is saying not to plant exotics. Even though I joked not to earlier in this thread about a Chinese Tulip poplar it was only because the native tulip poplar is the state tree of TN and didn't feel it was necessary to try to hunt down a Chinese one when the native ones like those shown in the photo volunteer readily.

Either way, exotic trees are fine as long as they are not on the do not plant list. I just got through saying this has nothing to do with people however if I must use an example it would go a little somethin like this.... A well behaved exotic plant is like an ordinary immigrant from another country. And an invasive species is like someone on the terrorist watch list.

Hopefully you will better understand now that this is not about intolerance of people but instead trees that really are wreaking having on certain natural habitats. And please go easy on us ok? Thanks.

    Bookmark   August 10, 2007 at 7:34PM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Quirkyquercus, I am puzzled by your post to me. I am happily married to an Irish man with 5 kids. Washington DC is like the most diverse and happy place. I think you misinterpret me too much. You need to relax. You also need a more scientific approach. Thanks.

    Bookmark   August 10, 2007 at 10:38PM
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saccharum(z9 FL)

"You also need a more scientific approach."

An odd statement, from someone ignores or dismisses scientific research regarding the effects of invasive species.

    Bookmark   August 10, 2007 at 10:55PM
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treeguy123(AL 7b)

I saw the most hilarious thing a few minutes ago on the local news. They showed a tree (Which was a Bradford Pear) that was damaged from a storm in front of a school and the weather man said he was not sure but he thought it was from lighting damage because it split like a blooming onion down the middle after the storm (I laughed and I thought that was just hilarious). I know it was from the wind and that is just what Bradford pears do after a storm I see it everywhere in every city. They just self destruct and split right down the middle because of very weak branch collar formation.

    Bookmark   August 10, 2007 at 11:32PM
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quirkyquercus

OK sorry about that snasxs. I figured you had experienced some discrimination or had some reason to believe that people that don't favor planting certain trees native to China was because the people don't like Chinese people. And that's not what this is about.

    Bookmark   August 11, 2007 at 8:11AM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Everyone can read your remarks published on the internet. I have no impact on what they think.

For example, below is the post on Chinese pistache which is rated at the lowest Ca-IPC invasive level. C - limited invasiveness with Naturalized distribution D Â None. Notice, Siberian Elm is rated B by the same list.

Quote quirkyquercus: Not to make you feel terrible, but this tree is listed one of the exotic pest plants of greatest ecological concern in California. I think you should take it back to nursery gal and tell them you want a store credit. And yes it was known to be invasive 6 years ago too.
As a side not, your behavior (of stalking my location and publish it on the internet) does not appear scholarly. Thanks.

    Bookmark   August 11, 2007 at 9:07AM
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quirkyquercus

If I creep you out maybe you'd be more comfortable on the UBC forum where you disclose your location.

And just so you know, "catagory I" or "A" invasives always seem to start out as catagory II or II or "c" invasives. The problems get worse as time goes on because the plants take over.

See the link below, as I don't fabricate information in my head to get a rise out of people.

Here is a link that might be useful: Exotic Pest Plants of Greatest Ecological Concern in California

    Bookmark   August 11, 2007 at 9:52AM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Researchers spend major time updating their knowledge. Why do you link a file from 8 years ago? Also, there is a difference between LR (List Rating) and NWR (Noxious Weed Rating) although both use letter system.

With regard to Chinese Pistache, the fact is clear.

In 1999, it is listed in the category under "Need More Information" section.

If you print out the brochure, you shall realize that the banner "Exotic Pest Plants of Greatest Ecological Concern in California" is on top of every odd numbered page. It is a page banner. It is not a title of this section. The banner for even pages is "The California Exotic Pest Plant Conuncil".

I guess that you misread this.

It is outdated in any case. The current list, as of August 11 2007, is located publicly at http://www.cal-ipc.org/ip/inventory/weedlist.php

The easy-to-understand CA-IPC scores are:
A = Severe
B = Moderate
C= Limited
D = None
For example, in the list German ivy (Delairea odorate) is rated A.
Siberian elm (Ulmus pumila) which you cannot recognize is listed B.
Gum rockrose (Cistus ladanifer) is C.

Chinese pistache is no longer listed as "Need More Information". It is rated as level C = limited invasiveness. Their naturalized distribution is rated D = None.

Is this clear to you?

    Bookmark   August 11, 2007 at 10:43AM
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quirkyquercus

There are countless exotics not on that list, plant one of those since they have not demonstrated invasive tendancies. Chinese Pistache has been a problem in other states, so no reason to think the problem will disappear by continuing to plant them in California.

    Bookmark   August 11, 2007 at 11:38AM
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snasxs(7-8 VA)

Quirkyquercus,

The fact about Chinese Pistache is clear. I hope you understand your mistake. Scientific approach is one that corrects mistakes.

As for you new argument accusing these *has been a problem in other states*, I am not sure if it worth my time. You have no evidence backing up any of your unscientific imaginations.

It seems you have a bug, not Asian plants.

C

    Bookmark   August 11, 2007 at 12:10PM
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sandyhill(z-8a NC USA)

Well, this has become quite a long ramble.
Back to first topic:
Ailanthus - please kill it.

Now, to ramble on:
Pterocarya stenoptera has posed no problems for me in Zone 8 NC, and it does not seem fussy about soil at all. I have not had any sprout where they shouldn't either.

    Bookmark   August 12, 2007 at 7:10PM
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lkz5ia

sandyhill, is it a solo wingnut, or are there others in area to properly cross-pollinate it?

    Bookmark   August 12, 2007 at 7:28PM
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