Landscape/Garden OR Florist/Cutting Garden/Exhibition Roses

sandandsun(9a FL)July 8, 2012

I think serious consideration should be given to segregating the discussion of Landscape/Garden roses from the discusssion of Florist/Cutting Garden/Exhibition roses in the Rose Forum(s). These two categories are diametrically opposed in both their use and care. And therefore the discussion of either is misleading in terms of the other.

As an example see the thread linked below. I use the Kordes example specifically because the distinction between function/use of these two classes of roses has been clearly drawn in Europe for years.

I for one want the national flower of the US to be widely and proudly grown successfully. Segregating the discussion of roses according to their use would certainly be of benefit to both novice and expert alike and improve the likelihood of more widespread success.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kordes

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seil zone 6b MI

I politely disagree. I grow ALL of those types of roses and I don't think talking about any one of those groups is out of line. My exhibition HTs grow right next to my shrub and OGR roses and I care for them all in just about the same manner. Oh, the exhibition roses may get a little extra TLC a week or so before a show but otherwise they all get the same amount of attention. And as far as I can see they all still need the same basic care too. We already have the Antiques forum, I don't think we need to have more sub-categories.

    Bookmark   July 8, 2012 at 3:45PM
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nanadollZ7 SWIdaho(Zone 7 Boise SW Idaho)

I agree with you, seil. We don't need further subdivision into camps of differing rose growers. I don't think there are enough of us, anyway, to have even more forums. I would like to see the continuing of a positive, welcoming forum to all types of new rose growing forum members. Diane

    Bookmark   July 8, 2012 at 4:36PM
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hoovb zone 9 sunset 23

There's an exhibitor's forum. I remember the addition of the Exhibitor's and Miniature rose forums quite a few years ago, 2002 maybe? Some visitors felt that Exhibitor topics were specialized enough to warrant another forum. Minis--perhaps. There are mini discussions here off and on.

I don't see much difference growing a cutting garden rose vs. growing a landscape rose, but perhaps that is a climate thing. I do wish there was a forum just for Jade Plant afficianados, so that I would not have to wade through all the Jade Plant posts on the Cactus/Succulent forum, but that's a climate thing too, I guess. Jade Plants are practically weeds here, while they are exotics just about everywhere else.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rose Exhibitor's forum

    Bookmark   July 8, 2012 at 6:50PM
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sandandsun(9a FL)

I'm not advocating isolating people into subgroups. There is no isolation involved. I grow moderns and antiques and I read and post on the Roses Forum and on the Antique Forum - no problem. My recommendation is to have more user friendly forums - according to the user's intentions. I know full well that it is unlikely to happen - that doesn't mean that it shouldn't or I wouldn't be writing this.

The thread I linked to in my initial post makes a great point for the case I'm presenting. (linked again below) When I read that thread in its entirety the following statement hit me like a brick:

"INTERESTING that the assumption was made that I was growing Freelander roses for my own garden use."

The statement was not rude. But it makes a very good example of what the casual reader might wrongfully conclude in many threads.

My garden roses get none of the ritual treatment a friend who exhibits gives her roses. Her roses REQUIRE that treatment to have any possible chance to win. As do many roses grown for exhibiting, cutting, or sale.

My roses don't require that sort of treatment. And by definition, good garden roses do not have to be pampered, fed steroids (aka lots of fertilizer), etc.

But the linked thread is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of how often this happens.

I just hope that everyone understands the point and considers it seriously.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sweet Antiq. Freelander

    Bookmark   July 8, 2012 at 6:55PM
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seil zone 6b MI

Yes, there is an exhibiting forum but if you look at it you'll see there are only posts of the new rose registrations. I did post about my show once on there and no one ever commented. I'm not sure anyone even looked at it there. I posted this year on this forum and had some good responses.

I do try to go to the mini forum and the Name that Rose forum once a week to try and answer questions for people. There are very few people besides me that do though. That's why I post here or in Antiques or sometimes the Gallery. Those seem to be the only ones people check out. And I can understand why too. It takes a lot of time to go through all the specialized forums and check them out. I really do prefer to have them all under a bigger umbrella. A rose is a rose is a rose and by an other name would smell as sweet after all. If I come across a post I am not interested in I just click off and move on.

    Bookmark   July 8, 2012 at 8:08PM
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I agree - since there already is an exhibitors forum, and no one seems to be using it much, perhaps there is a reason? That might be that lots of folk grow lots of different kinds of roses for different reasons, and are interested in the many general and specific questions that come up on this forum. Sounds like the experiment suggested has already been tried, and has failed.


    Bookmark   July 8, 2012 at 9:31PM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

it's a rough crowd, sandandsun ...

    Bookmark   July 9, 2012 at 12:23AM
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flaurabunda(6a, Central IL)

There is another forum elsewhere in webbery-land that has 10 times the features & capabilities of this one, is well categorized, and its moderators are actual rosey folks. Guess what---it doesn't have 1/10th the traffic of this forum. What makes a forum viable is the activity of its members. Just because you have neat little pockets or files for categorizing things doesn't mean that people will use them; I used to post in the minis forum, but that's futile if nobody goes there to read it.

The current distinction we have between OGRs and Moderns is relevant [to me] because of the vast differences between the 2 classes. I may be way off the mark, but if you compare the goals & desires of a person growing modern roses versus one who grows OGRs, you'll find a huge differences as well.

Maybe I'm missing the point, but I don't understand how that linked thread justifies splitting up the forum. Adding categories isn't going to prevent people from drawing incorrect conclusions or misunderstanding someone else's words.

My neighbor is an avid exhibitor and has been growing roses for tons of years. I don't exhibit and probably never will. We have several of the same roses in our yards, live just a few blocks from each other, but our goals are different and therefore our techniques are different. So is the advice we give other rose enthusiasts. This forum functions well because most of the membership is aware of those different goals & needs and detailed suggestions in our responses often point this out to whomever is asking a question. I have seen more than once where a new person joins after buying a rose or two, and then just by asking questions, an entire realm of possibilities are opened to them that they were unaware of previously. You're not going to find detailed, considerate responses to questions in a library book or from a column in a newspaper; it only happens by the types of interactions we have here.

Imagine if we segregated posts by zone. Is that specific enough? Often we tell people that although our zones are similar, they really should ask someone near to them about their results. Does that mean we should segregate by state? Why not state AND zone? For that matter, city? Once things get narrowed down to the specific, participation dwindles and you're left posting in dead air. We try so hard to get people interested and make our hobby relevant in order to encourage its livelihood. My fear is that separation, segregation, or splitting things up will cause activity to taper off and remove the large, community-type feeling we're trying to foster.

    Bookmark   July 9, 2012 at 10:20AM
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Campanula UK Z8

Although some of the European rose breeders and growers have a category for 'landscape roses', this is a distinction we rarely come across in the UK. Nor do we categorise cutting or florists roses although a catalogue may make a note of such possibilities. I suppose landscape roses tend to get included in either the 'shrub' class, rather than floribundas or hybrid teas, or elsewhere, they are found in 'ground cover' or procumbent roses. I do see where you are coming from in regards to greater clarity but, as Flaurabunda has gone straight to the heart of why we use this forum and the value therein, it is less essential for us to stick to certain rules (after all, there is still considerable confusion about 'old roses' and I often flip between the main rose forums with only a fleeting consideration for the appropriateness (is this a word?) of posting in the correct forum - for me, it is all about the particular posters and the responses I get.

    Bookmark   July 9, 2012 at 3:42PM
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diane_nj 6b/7a

There is also an Organic Rose Growing forum along with the regional forums.

Another issue is that what is disease resistant in, say, Southern California (including hybrid teas) is not here. The SoCal folks need less care (except for rust) for their HTs than I do. That makes it difficult to decide what varieties could be discussed in what forum. To me, if I see a topic that I'm not interested in, I don't read it. And, if I see a post in a thread that I don't necessarily agree with, I just see it as one person's opinion, and I keep on to the next post.

Yes, the exhibitors mostly reside over on the other forum that flaurabunda mentioned, a couple mentioned to me (many years ago) that they no longer felt welcomed here.

    Bookmark   July 10, 2012 at 12:36PM
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Flaurabunda, thank you for expressing what this forum (and the Antique rose forum also) represents. Everyone is welcome at both of them - and they both get TONS of traffic! I just went onto the Exhibitors forum - it is so sad. The first page goes all the way back to Feb, 2011! Most posts are never responded to.

Most folks on the two successful forums have figured out that they need to qualify their remarks with where and how they garden, so confusions can be avoided or quickly cleared up. When newbies don't do that, they are gently prompted to, not discouraged to participate. Personally, I see every fairly ignorant question by a newbie as an opportunity to snag another rose grower!

Any confusions that may result from having people posting who grow roses for all kinds of different reasons are worth it - I think it makes the whole thing much more interesting, and gives me the opportunity to learn new things.

One hilarious example I remember is the post about "miniature roses" sold in grocery stores, etc. I never knew that these were not miniature roses at all, but just ordinary roses that were made to look miniature for only the length of time it took to sell them, and were to be thought of just like a bouquet of cut roses. That really amazed me! I really enjoy being amazed like that, and learning new things all of the time.



    Bookmark   July 10, 2012 at 1:35PM
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flaurabunda(6a, Central IL)

Yes, exactly. I agree that it would be a noble undergoing to categorize everything if traffic here warranted it, but I think with our relatively low numbers it would do more harm than good.

I frequent a knitting website that has over 2 million members, with approximately 4500 people active at any given time. THAT website has a bajillion different boards and segregation of topics, and it serves its users well. It's a completely different animal over here; broad generalization makes this place a catch-all and easy to locate if you're new to the hobby.

    Bookmark   July 10, 2012 at 2:04PM
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seil zone 6b MI

And besides all of Flaura's and others wonderful points, the simple fact is that by narrowing categories we narrow our own perspective and lose the chance to learn and experience new things. I like reading about all the different ways and reasons people grow roses.

If I hadn't read all about exhibiting roses I never would have tried it and hence would never have met the wonderful rose growing friends I've made in the two rose societies that I belong to. And I like to share my experience exhibiting in case there are other people out there who might be interested in giving it a try. I don't think I've ever tried to strong arm someone into doing it though. But I do like to let people know that I don't do most of the things that exhibitors are accused of to my roses and I do still win things at shows! And it's fun! Like I said earlier, for the most part all my roses get the same treatment, form my Knock Out, to my Julia Child, to my Reine des Violettes, to my Veterans' Honor, to my Rainbow's End. The same sun, water and fertilizer. The only difference is I may groom the exhibition roses a little more carefully just before show time. That's it!

I read every thing on the antiques forum because, even though I do not care for once bloomers myself, I do appreciate their beauty and enjoy knowing about them. I have space limitations and a short growing season so I feel they don't work for me. But that doesn't mean I don't think they're beautiful or don't need to know about them. There are always many posts about Noisettes and Chinas and most Teas that I will never be able to grow here but love seeing and learning about them. They are types of roses that I would never have been exposed to except on a forum like this because they will not winter in cold climates. Knowing about them has enriched my knowledge and love and appreciation of roses. But there are also a lot of threads about David Austin roses there too, which are MODERN ROSES and not OGRs at all. It doesn't seem to matter though.

And as for landscaping roses, let's face it, that usually means Knock Outs. Or Icebergs if you're west of the Rockies. So should we have a special forum for those? Although I own one of each, please spare us that!

    Bookmark   July 10, 2012 at 8:30PM
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I do not grow roses for florist/cutting purposes & have rarely shown roses, but I do grow numerous "florist" & "show" roses because of their good garden qualities. Additionally I do pay attention to the "pampering" techiniques used by show because some of these methods can be very useful in improving my roses so I don't believe that florist/show roses & pampering techiniques are something that I want to ignore.

    Bookmark   July 11, 2012 at 10:06AM
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diane_nj 6b/7a

BTW, the "forum" that flaurabunda and I referred to where many exhibitors post is not the GardenWeb Rose Exhibitor's Forum. It is another site altogether, separate from GardenWeb.

    Bookmark   July 11, 2012 at 10:28AM
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sandandsun(9a FL)

You wrote: "There is another forum elsewhere in webbery-land that has 10 times the features & capabilities of this one, is well categorized, and its moderators are actual rosey folks."

Would you provide the name and link to that forum, please? Thanks in advance.

    Bookmark   July 11, 2012 at 3:41PM
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sandandsun(9a FL)

Have you been to the DIA?
They have a French painting there. They call it the 'The Nut Gatherers.' I was embarassed at how poorly they had translated the title which in reality is 'The Almonds,' if I remember correctly. Have you seen it?
I've included a link to a photo on the website, below.
Having the correct title one doesn't make the incorrect assumption that both girls have been gathering nuts when only one holds them.
Then the subtle difference in their skin tones, hair styles, body language, and most importantly facial expressions make it one of the most extraordinary art works I've ever seen. And obviously my best memory of my visit to the DIA.
Have you seen it?

Here is a link that might be useful: The Nut Gatherers

    Bookmark   July 11, 2012 at 4:24PM
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flaurabunda(6a, Central IL)

The other forum, if I'm allowed to post it here, is:

rosarianscorner dot net backslash

I hesitate to post any links as I think that's how spammers get attracted to either this site or a linked site.

    Bookmark   July 12, 2012 at 9:08AM
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Seil, Oh yes! A Knockout rose forum! There should be a Knockout Gallery forum too so people can share photos of their Knockouts :)

    Bookmark   July 12, 2012 at 8:16PM
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Flaurabunda, which knitting forum you refer to? Just curious. I am an avid knitter with a lifelong experience in sweaters, socks, hats, whatever is needed. Tried several forums, but didn't find anything that would be right for me. Most either target novice knitters and explain basic techniques or discuss something very fancy and not really practical. I am more down to earth :)
Sorry for being off topic here, but you don't have an option to e-mail you on your page.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2012 at 5:08PM
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hosenemesis(SoCal Sunset 19 USDA 8b)

Sandandsun, why don't you send a message to Tamara at GW and ask her to rename the Rose Exhibiting and Judging Forum the Florist/Cutting Garden/Exhibition Rose Forum? That way there would be a forum with a name that describes your interest.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2012 at 9:45PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Olga, try Ravelry. Lots of free patterns too.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2012 at 8:16AM
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Campanula UK Z8

hey, flaurabunda any reason you can think of why it has not been possible to register with rosarianscorner? Just get a little notice stating the admin has closed registrations? No way of contacting them unless you are already registered. You would think they could come up with a better way to run a forum but for us addicts....yah know.
Getting ever further from OP, sorry.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2012 at 8:36AM
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seil zone 6b MI

I belong to the other forum too (GW will not let me post the name. They say it's spam!) and activity there has been nearly non-existent for some time now. I did not know that the RC had closed registrations but it isn't surprising. IMHO, it has more to do with the fact that most of the poster there have gone over to facebook then anything else. And it's just not the same on facebook. There's very little rose talk at all let alone the kind of discussions we have on here.

sandandsun, yes, I've been many times to the DIA and seen that painting. It's one of my favorites.

amberroses, you are kidding, aren't you?!

    Bookmark   July 14, 2012 at 10:44AM
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Thanks, Campanula. I will go to chck it right now :)

    Bookmark   July 14, 2012 at 11:00AM
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sandandsun(9a FL)

Thank you everyone for your responses.

Sharing and discussing ideas with considerate and thought provoking individuals like yourselves is really well, I don't have the words.

Rosey folks sure are special.

Thanks again.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2012 at 6:12PM
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Wirosarian -- I agree with everything you said. If those of us who do not exhibit choose to discount everything rose show aficionados have to say about growing good roses, then we're doing ourselves a great disservice.

Of the volumes in my gardening library, Robert B. Martin's "Showing Good Roses" is among the most valued. It's 496 pages is packed with info that's extremely helpful to exhibitors and nonexhibitors alike. The book is poorly edited, and the lack of an index sometimes drives me to distraction, but I find myself referring to it time and again. I ordered mine years ago from Rosemania. I think they still carry it.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2012 at 8:04PM
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Seil, yes I'm kidding :)

    Bookmark   July 14, 2012 at 8:11PM
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flaurabunda(6a, Central IL)

Ahh good--Suzy answered with the name of the knitting place. It is spectacular.

I was totally unaware that RC had closed itself to new members, but like Seil said, really not surprised. And I won't touch facebook with a 100 foot pole.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2012 at 10:41AM
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