Alternatives to Rudbeckia Goldsturm?

rouge21_gw(5)October 1, 2011

I want a similar blossom ie black-eyed Susan like or at the least just yellow Susan like ;) which grows to a maximum of 24" and clumps...and preferably begins flowering sooner than Goldsturm.

What do you suggest?

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aquawise(zone 4 Utah)

Golden Glow is smaller than Black eyed Susan. I really like mine. Saved a few seeds from it for winter sowing. There is a pic of it in my gallery.

Here is a link that might be useful: Gallery

    Bookmark   October 1, 2011 at 10:33AM
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rusty_blackhaw(6a)

"Viette's Little Suzy" is an interesting alternative to "Goldsturm". I haven't had it long enough for complete evaluation, but flowering habit looks more open and it seems a bit smaller than typical "Goldsturm".

    Bookmark   October 1, 2011 at 11:33AM
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gottagarden(z5 western NY)

rudbeckia hirta aka gloriosa daisy - better colors, bigger blooms, blooms earlier, not so spready. Far superior.

very cool types with dark eyes, all a little different

    Bookmark   October 1, 2011 at 1:09PM
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rouge21_gw(5)

Yes I do like the flower of hirta very much as well but it is my impression that this plant behaves very much like an annual. I want my replacement for Goldsturm to be a reliable perennial (as Goldsturm is).

    Bookmark   October 1, 2011 at 3:09PM
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terrene(5b MA)

R. hirta can be annual, biennial, and in one case I had a plant that bloomed for 3 years, then went kaput. No, not a reliable perennial.

I have Heliopsis 'Summer Sun', which is very pretty with semi-double flowers that bloom for a very long season, especially with deadheading. Gets a bit taller than 2 feet but you could shear it back around June to keep it shorter. More drought tolerant than R. fulgida Goldsturm.

Mine didn't do particularly well this year though. A couple were wiped out by voles. The others in the back garden were munched by slugs and earwigs. It was a terrible year for all 3 of these pests however - damage was by no means limited to this plant.

Here is a link that might be useful: Heliopsis helianthoides Summer Sun

    Bookmark   October 2, 2011 at 3:30AM
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rouge21_gw(5)

Thanks for the suggestions.

I like the reasonable height that Goldstrum attains (isnt "Golden Glow" taller than Goldsturm?) and its dependable perennial nature.

I am just keeping my eye out for a perennial having a somewhat similar flower that blooms earlier in the summer and is (highly) disease resistant e.g. no leaf fungus/black spot that my Goldsturms always get :(.

    Bookmark   October 2, 2011 at 5:50AM
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goblugal(7)

The only thing that comes to mind for me as a "substitute" would be coreopsis grandiflora.

    Bookmark   October 3, 2011 at 12:46PM
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coolplantsguy(z6 Ontario)

Try the new 'Little Goldstar'.

    Bookmark   October 3, 2011 at 2:42PM
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rouge21_gw(5)

This does look like a 'good' replacement for Goldsturm.

Any idea if it begins flowering sooner than Goldsturm?

Do we know yet if it is very much disease resistant ie no black spot as Goldsturm often gets

And finally how likely is it that it will be readily available in Ontario in spring 2012!

    Bookmark   October 3, 2011 at 5:41PM
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coolplantsguy(z6 Ontario)

I don't believe it will bloom much earlier. Like 'Goldsturm' (a seed strain), 'Little Goldstar' (vegetative clone) is a selection of R. fulgida var. sullivanti, so bloom-time should be nearly the same.

In field trials with several selections of R. fulgida, 'Little Goldstar' had the cleanest foliage.

The overal habit and form is impressive -- a good, clean selection -- more refined, less "wild-looking" than 'Goldsturm'.

It should be readily available at better garden centres in Ontario next year.

    Bookmark   October 4, 2011 at 8:22AM
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rouge21_gw(5)

Thanks for the information. I will keep an eye out for "Goldstar" next spring.

    Bookmark   October 4, 2011 at 9:22AM
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dandy_line(3B (Brainerd, Mn))

I overdi the 'Goldsturm' and now I much prefer Rudbeckia fulgida var deamii as it blooms for much longer period of time than Goldsturm. Same flower as the other but seems to be better behaved.
I just experienced my first season with R. subtomentosa and think I'm going to like it a lot. Much taller and blooms for a long period. Of course for the longest bloom time, try R. triloba. A four foot tall bush with 100's of blossoms for two months. But it kills itself doing that so it requires new seeded generations each year.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2011 at 12:39AM
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rouge21_gw(5)

I planted a small triloba plant this past August after seeing a wonderful display of mature trioba at a residence. I look forward to seeing my triloba next summer. But this plant cannot substitute for 'Goldsturm' as it is much too large and is not a perennial.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2011 at 8:21AM
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connietn

I have Heliopsis Loraine Sunshine, and it sounds like it fits the description of what you're looking for. It has the bonus of very cool variegated foilage. I grew mine from seed by winter sowing. Very good germination. Not all seedlings were variegated - about half were, from my batch.

Here is a link that might be useful: Heliopsis Loraine Sunshine

    Bookmark   October 9, 2011 at 7:48AM
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rouge21_gw(5)

Thanks Connie and I agree completely that it is a wonderful plant ie great foliage, great flower and the right size. BUT I just cant abide the mass of aphids that this plant invariably attracts. I have had several in various locations on my property and without fail the aphids appear with a vengeance at some point in August.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2011 at 8:27AM
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Campanula UK Z8

mmm, R.subtomentosum. New to me too and definately impressed. This has been an awful rudbeckia summer - nearly all of them over halfway through September (Herbstonne went firstand the fulgidas followed swiftly) while the R.subtomentosum kept on going. Also, I love the size and shape of the flowers (I really do not like doubles of anything) - have high hopes of this one even though I struggle to keep these prairie types moist enough in dry East Anglia.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2011 at 11:32AM
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wieslaw59

I have Rudbeckia subtomentosa Henry Eilers. It is robust and healthy, but one of the most disappointing flowers I have ever experienced. They are practically invisible, disappear in the air. If you know what 'garden visibility factor' is , then this plant has ZERO at the peak of bloom. I have posted a picture in my thread on September Gems.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2011 at 12:33PM
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dandy_line(3B (Brainerd, Mn))

There are some newer short varieties out there now. From the Mobot web site, this one looks very good at only 18" tall.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rudbeckia fulgida 'Blovi' VIETTE'S LITTLE SUZY

    Bookmark   October 14, 2011 at 7:34PM
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wieslaw59

My advice is: drop Rudbeckias and plant Heliopsis Asahi. A really wonderfull plant with no vices.The flowers are small but hundreds of them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Heliopsis Asahi

    Bookmark   October 14, 2011 at 7:53PM
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rouge21_gw(5)

When did your Asahi start to flower this past summer?

    Bookmark   October 15, 2011 at 6:03AM
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wieslaw59

As far as I remember in the second half of July, but I live relatively far North, so it may flower earlier for you. You can see a shot of the same plant in the middle of September at the link below

Here is a link that might be useful: Asahi mid-September

    Bookmark   October 15, 2011 at 7:19PM
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rouge21_gw(5)

wieslaw, thanks for the personal feedback re Asahi. I will keep an eye out for this plant next spring.

The following is a bit off topic but I have noticed that you sometimes 'poo poo' your wonderful Zone 7 climate.

Of course many variables are taken into account for the determination of the plant hardiness zone designation. One such variable (at least in Canada) is "snow cover".

I would imagine that Europe also incorporates "snow cover" as a factor in plant hardiness zones?

If this is the case then after all is said and done your zone 7 is a quite temperate zone as compared to my 5b. And your lack of snow cover that you often reference must be more than offset by other favourable climatic factors and hence your 'balmy' 7.

    Bookmark   October 15, 2011 at 8:25PM
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wieslaw59

Hi Rouge21! As far as I know hardiness zones are made up basicly on minimum winter temperatures, correct me anybody if I'm wrong. Another question is what does 'minimum ' exactly mean? If for 10-15 years the temperature do not fall below - 20 degrees Centigrade, and then one winter it falls down to - 32 degrees (if I remember correctly winter 1981/82), which is the 'minimum' then?

I have compared the winter effect by the selection of plants originating from North America, which I can grow safely , and the majority of these plants are ascribed to American zone 5 and below. Plants ascribed to American zone 6 and higher are iffy for me. I can't grow plants from Himalaya region, although it is much colder there (but they have 2 meter snow cover or so).

List of plants originating from North America, which I can keep alive through the winter unprotected : Aster novi-angliae, Aster novi-belgii, Rudbeckia laciniata, Phlox paniculata and amplifolia, Aster umbellatus, Helenium autumnale, Heliopsis helianthoides, Rudbeckia fulgida, Trilliums except kurabayashi. Helianthus decapetalus can get damaged in exposed situations.

All the rest I have tried failed.(among others: Stokesia, Lobelia cardinalis, Silene regia, Persicaria virginiana, Rudbeckia paradoxa,Spigelia marilandica, Aster oblongifolius, nearly all American lilies and others ).

    Bookmark   October 16, 2011 at 5:26AM
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rouge21_gw(5)

wieslaw, (much) more than temperature goes into the determination of hardiness zones. And I quote from the "Agriculture Canada" website:

In 1967, Agriculture Canada scientists created a plant hardiness map using Canadian plant survival data and a wider range of climatic variables, including minimum winter temperatures, length of the frost-free period, summer rainfall, maximum temperatures, snow cover, January rainfall and maximum wind speed."

So at the least, in Canada "snow cover" is taken into account. I am just assuming that Europe does similarly.

Of course there is always the caveat that one may reside in an area within a plant hardiness zone that has extenuating factors which result in a micro climate.

    Bookmark   October 16, 2011 at 6:34AM
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ontnative(5b Can/USDA 4)

Another one to look for is Rudbeckia 'City Garden'. It is similar to, but more compact and shorter than 'Goldsturm'.

    Bookmark   October 16, 2011 at 7:32PM
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rouge21_gw(5)

coolplantsguy wrote:

It should be readily available at better garden centres in Ontario next year.

And I see it just today shown in the Lost Horizons 2012 catalogue.

    Bookmark   January 29, 2012 at 2:19PM
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rouge21_gw(5)

Clearly it will be widely available this spring/summer in Ontario as I see it is shown prominently as a new plant for 2012 at the ubiquitous "Sheridan Nurseries":

Here is a link that might be useful: Little Goldstar in Ontario

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 4:34PM
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echinaceamaniac(7)

Did someone complain about Rudbeckia Henry Eilers? I have that plant and it is phenomenal! The tall stems have tons of blooms. They need several years for maximum impact. What a great plant! People ask me about it all the time!

Also...I have never had any insect problem with Heliopsis 'Lorraine Sunshine.' It's another favorite. I don't think attracting those insects is a trait that is common for that plant. It could be just a local thing for that garden. The only insects it attracts here are bees and butterflies!

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 4:51PM
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wieslaw59

I complained about Henry Eilers. Yes, it has a lot of flowers, and they all are INVISIBLE. Very thin greenish yellow petals that disappear at the distance of 2 meters. Below the sunflower:

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 5:09PM
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echinaceamaniac(7)

My Henry Eilers was six feet tall. The blooms were golden yellow. That one looks to be smothered by the sunflowers. It works much better without other plants that close to it. It's so reliable. The blooms last so long in a vase. One stem can have 30 or more blooms. It does have small blooms, but they are so unique. I bet the giant sunflower blooms also make it look even smaller. Hopefully someone will create one with larger blooms someday. I'll have to post a photo of mine.

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 5:46PM
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echinaceamaniac(7)

My Henry Eilers was six feet tall. The blooms were golden yellow. That one looks to be smothered by the sunflowers. It works much better without other plants that close to it. It's so reliable. The blooms last so long in a vase. One stem can have 30 or more blooms. It does have small blooms, but they are so unique. I bet the giant sunflower blooms also make it look even smaller. Hopefully someone will create one with larger blooms someday. I'll have to post a photo of mine.

I think Helenium would be a good replacement for Rudbeckias. They bloom longer and look tidier. Blooms are smaller but more of them. Also they are reliable perennials. I love 'Double Trouble' and 'Mardis Gras.'

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 5:49PM
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rouge21_gw(5)

Remember this thread was intended to get some alternatives to the ubiquitous Goldstrum but one that is (much) more compact and disease free but still very floriferous. And it appears to me that "Little Goldstar" does fit the bill.

But as someone who has both Eilers and Lemon Queen i.e. both of similar height I do find LQ to be much more impressive when in bloom.

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 6:14PM
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echinaceamaniac(7)

I guess if you just want large blooms, 'Lemon Queen' would be better than Henry Eilers. However, from what I've read that 'Lemon Queen' can get out of hand by spreading. On one description of it, it said..."Divide as needed to control the patch." Henry Eilers doesn't spread or need controlling. My Dad accidentally cut my mom's 'Henry Eilers' with the lawn mower. That sucker came back and bloomed the same year. That's what I call a tough plant! LOL.

By the way...here's a photo of 'Henry Eilers' that looks like the plant I have grown for several years.

Terra Nova Nurseries has developed a new, shorter version of 'Henry Eilers' called 'Little Henry.' If anyone is interested, here is a link to it...

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Little Henry'

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 6:35PM
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rouge21_gw(5)

That is a wonderful picture of "Eilers"....almost as many flowers as my LQueen ;).

And thanks for the link to "Little Henry".

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 7:20PM
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echinaceamaniac(7)

We are so funny. Defending plants like they are our children. LOL.

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 7:46PM
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wieslaw59

I agree on some things: Henry Eilers was healthy and robust, but if your available space is VERY LIMITED and you want plants with IMPACT, then keep away from this plant as far as you can. It is really very rare to come across a plant with so little impact (just google its pictures and you will see for yourself).
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Lemon Queen. Yes , it grows bigger(isn't it what good plants should do ?),but do not send runners. If somebody expects a plant to always come back with just one stem, then stay away from this one too.

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 8:56PM
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echinaceamaniac(7)

It's not a gaudy plant, but I think its impact is that its tall, airy, and unique. To me that sunflower someone posted is sprawling and not as uniform and straight. Its just a different type of plant. I see nothing wrong with the photos of Henry Eilers.

    Bookmark   March 11, 2012 at 9:12PM
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wieslaw59

The sunflower was not the issue here. Airy? Perhaps too airy, it disappears in the air. The topic is ALTERNATIVES to R. Goldsturm. Henry Eilers is NOT an alternative to GOLDSTURM. You cannot substitute a blindingly yellow and eye-catching plant with a plant that looks like Henry Eilers.

    Bookmark   March 12, 2012 at 3:39AM
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rouge21_gw(5)

echinaceamaniac wrote:

I have never had any insect problem with Heliopsis 'Lorraine Sunshine.' It's another favorite.

I agree that LS is a striking 'Heliopsis'. I have had several in different locations on my property and w/o fail it is aphid infested at some point in August. Just google "Lorraine Sunshine"+aphid and you will get lots of hits :(. But lucky for you echinaceamaniac.

    Bookmark   March 12, 2012 at 8:16AM
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echinaceamaniac(7)

I hope those aphids stay far away from my Lorraine Sunshine! I will defend her!!!

    Bookmark   March 12, 2012 at 11:03AM
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rouge21_gw(5)

coolplantsguy wrote:

It should be readily available at better garden centres in Ontario next year.

And you were right i.e. "Little Goldstar" is readily available this spring. I have seen it at multiple nurseries. I even bought one to 'test drive' ;).

    Bookmark   May 7, 2012 at 5:53PM
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rouge21_gw(5)

UPDATE:

I put two of these in my garden in May. I like them very much. They have performed as advertised i.e. compact and shorter than "Goldstrum" but still very floriferous. As well I have had no blackspot or any other leaf issues that I often experienced with "Goldsturm".

Here is a picture of one of my LG taken this morning. It is now 1.5 feet by 1.5 feet. I am hoping that is doesnt get much bigger.

    Bookmark   July 30, 2012 at 8:41AM
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twrosz

rouge21 ... yes, that's a plant I need several of!

    Bookmark   August 24, 2012 at 11:09PM
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rouge21_gw(5)

Thanks again coolplantsguy for that suggestion back on October 11! It has come to fruition!

Btw, I don't think I have seen you post in a long while. I hope you come back soon. What did you really like in your garden this summer?

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 5:30AM
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rouge21_gw(5)

Here is a picture of my 'Henry Eilers' taken just this morning. It does look disheveled and flopping but that is in great part due to the large amount of rain we had 12 hours earlier. This is a young plant having been in the ground for about a 18 months. Actually I am glad I have this particular Rudbeckia.

    Bookmark   August 28, 2012 at 8:18AM
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ontnative(5b Can/USDA 4)

Is Little Goldstar very drought tolerant? This summer has been very hard for plants in my part of southern Ontario. Lots of sun but almost no rain.

    Bookmark   September 2, 2012 at 9:13AM
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rouge21_gw(5)

Yes it has been my experience this hot dry summer that LG is not water needy.

    Bookmark   September 2, 2012 at 9:51AM
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