Papery Leaves

edenh(z9)October 17, 2013

Hi
It looks like all my roses have this papery, brittle looking leaves instead of the shiny, leathery leaves. What is wrong with it?Even the potted ones have the same leaves. They dont have spider mites, and they are not overwatered. I feed them with diluted miracle grow and emulsion fish every 2 or 3 days. I am in Central florida. Thanks

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michaelg(7a NC Mts)

Could you get a sharply focused picture for us?

How diluted is the Miracle Gro and fish? Do you measure? What is the name of the fish product?

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 11:10AM
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edenh(z9)

I used about 1 cap for 3 gallon water, and 1/4tsp for 3 gallon water.Thanks

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 2:46PM
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edenh(z9)

The leaves feel dry and brittle, they are usually curled.

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 2:49PM
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edenh(z9)

Here is another picture. I hope they are clear enough.

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 2:53PM
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edenh(z9)

The fish fertilizer is Alaska 5-1-1. Thanks

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 2:55PM
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hoovb zone 9 sunset 23

whats the weather been like lately, and are the roses getting enough water? The amount of stuff you are giving them doesn't sound like it is at damage levels.

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 4:00PM
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michaelg(7a NC Mts)

Thanks for the informative response. Maybe someone will have an idea. I don't have much to offer. Calcium deficiency can cause puckered leaves. There should be enough calcium in American potting mixes, but a shortage of water can cause a shortage of calcium uptake. If you put a handful of gypsum in a jug of cool water and leave it a few days, that is one way to add calcium effectively. It dissolves very slowly, so you can add a second round of water to the grits in the jug.

You are feeding the fish at 1/3 strength but applying it very often, maybe too often.

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 4:02PM
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roseseek

Stop feeding! You're using salt (Miracle Gro) and fish emulsion every 2 to 3 days?! You are drying out the foliage by burning it with salt. You're overloading them with fertilizer. You have to permit them the chance to use what you've given them before force feeding them more. Stop feeding them anything other than water for the rest of the year. You have a lot of salt build up in those plants and it's going to take a lot of water to flush it out and use it up for them to return to normal. They are dry and brittle because you are drying them out by giving them too much "salt".

When I suggest people "feed weakly, weekly", that means use half (or a bit less) strength at twice the frequency, instead of a tablespoon per gallon every two weeks, half (or less) tablespoon every week. Putting any salt on two to three times a week is keeping the leaves bathed in salt and that sucks the water out of them. No wonder they're "papery and brittle." Kim

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 4:17PM
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andreark

Kim and Michael, thanks for the info. It looks like I have one plant that I have been 'loving' too much.

andrea

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 5:23PM
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roseseek

You're welcome! Oh, yes, it is EASY to "love" anything too much. When push comes to shove, what the label says is still the "go to" information. Too much is often just that, too much.
Kim

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 5:39PM
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edenh(z9)

I was using the miracle gro and the fish fertilizer because some of my roses have leaves that are turning lime green. Do I stop using the fertilizer on them too? Thanks

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 6:02PM
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roseseek

If the "lime green" foliage is also papery and brittle, yes, discontinue fertilizing them. If they continue feeling "normal", fertilize. But, follow the concentration and frequency indicated on the label. The issue isn't that you fed your roses. It is that you have over fed them, given them too much salt in too short a time period. If you want to feed them more frequently, I honestly would not suggest more than half strength (at the highest), at twice the frequency. Instead of a tablespoon per gallon every two weeks, use half a tablespoon (or a bit less) every week. Water them well before fertilizing, say the day or evening before, then fertilize the next day. If your temperatures are still high enough to support photosynthesis (about 70 F or higher, lower than that and photosynthesis slows) they should green up. If you're experiencing rains, you may not need to water as frequently, or even before fertilizing. If it's bone dry, as it is here, you need to make sure the plants are sufficiently hydrated before applying anything "salty". Kim

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 6:13PM
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thonotorose

It looks like a little iron sulfite would be in order for those limey leaves. We've had tremendous rain here over the last several months. I find that much rain washes out my leaves, too.

Kim, Is Iron Sulfite considered a salt?

    Bookmark   October 17, 2013 at 10:39PM
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roseseek

Actually, I don't know. Perhaps I may have used "salt" inappropriately? "Water soluble" may be more appropriate? I dunno. Hopefully, someone more "chemically minded" will chime in to hone definitions. My point is, anything insoluble must be made soluble so it can be held "in solution" so plant parts can absorb it through tissues. Kim

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 1:08AM
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edenh(z9)

Thank you all. I am moving away from growing roses for now. We move here in January and we are still learning about gardening in Florida. The soil in the yard is basically just sand and everything we put in, be it annual or perennial just wither away within weeks. I just couldnt afford to get all the lovely compost and stuff like alfalfa meal etc to amend the soil. The only plants that are growing are Vinca and lantana. So today i will be digging my last two roses and in the pot they go..:( Thanks so much for the advice

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 8:07AM
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andreark

Kim,

I am using Neptunes Harvest Seaweed/Fish fert. as a foliar spray. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that it is almost impossible to spray your plants too much with this product. Do you have any idea if this is right?

andrea aka annie

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 11:03AM
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michaelg(7a NC Mts)

Tip for sandy soil: dig in 10-15% plain cat litter. This will turn it into a sandy loam that retains water and nutrients much better. If you do that and plant roses that are grafted on Fortuniana rootstock, roses will do much better.

The amount of Miracle Gro being applied is not excessive. I don't know how much is a capful of fish, but it is 1/3 labelled strength being applied maybe 10 times as often, so it could be excessive.

Salts are usually named with two words, the second one ending in -ide, -ate, or -ite. (sodium chloride, potassium bicarbonate). They are pH neutral and some are highly soluble. Salts dissolved in the soil moisture are necessary for plant nutrition, but (as Kim said) if there is too much, plants become incapable of taking up adequate water.

I don't think you would have excessive salt buildup in Florida with sandy soil and heavy rain, but it is often an issue in the arid West where Kim gardens.

My suggestion of calcium deficiency was very tentative, but over fertilizing with NPK can cause it. The pale leaves with spiky green veins suggest manganese deficiency. Since Miracle Gro supplies manganese, the deficiency in the plant might be caused by an excess of some other nutrient. You may be giving too much nitrogen with the fish. Also, check to be sure you are watering enough. Roses in heat and sandy soil will need over an inch or around 6 gallons per week distributed over 3 waterings.

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 11:21AM
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roseseek

Hi Andrea, I haven't used that product. Logically, though, Nature didn't provide for anything much more than water to be applied to rose leaves. "Almost impossible" implies that it MIGHT be possible to over apply. Even if it weren't, the stuff has a cost and fish/ocean products tend to be higher nitrogen, which isn't a resource you want to over apply to most garden plants, anyway. I'm not saying not to use it as it is very likely a decent fertilizer. But, even too much water is toxic. I'd treat it as I would any other fertilizer. Follow the directions. If you want to apply more frequently, cut the dose in half and apply at twice the recommended frequency. Smaller meals, more frequently, are often beneficial for many plants, animals and people.

Any marketer worth his/her salt is going to at least suggest you use their product as frequently and as much as possible. Their goal is to maximize sales. Over use of most products can be damaging; at the very least, wasteful. Look at shampoos. Sales plateaued years ago until some brilliant marketer came up with, "Lather, rinse, repeat" which doubled sales virtually over night. If it doesn't get your hair clean with one application, what makes you think it's going to get it any cleaner with two?

The images provided in this thread illustrate some downsides of fertilizer over use. Want to risk anything like that? Kim

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 11:26AM
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andreark

Kim,

I just called the folks at Neptune's. They said just what you said on your last post and also what you said previously. If you want to fert more often.(recommended is 1 oz per gal at once every week or two) cut the dilution in half. She said to fert twice a week, use only 1/2 oz per gal of water.

Thanks again,

andrea-(aka annie)

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 12:24PM
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michaelg(7a NC Mts)

Both seaweed and fish are high in potentially harmful sodium; fish is high in nitrogen, which can burn plants. This is not to say that the combo is a bad product. But it certainly can harm plants when used to excess, whether as a spray or a soil drench.

And remember that manufacturers doses are always on the generous side, because they want you to use lots and buy more often. Those doses are safe, but should not be exceeded. Using less than recommended will usually give good results.

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 12:41PM
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andreark

Thanks Michael...Have a great weekend.

andrea

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 3:22PM
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dove_song(WA State Z6b)

Hmm. I have sandy soil so thanks for the "dig in 10-15% plain cat litter" tip, Michael.

    Bookmark   October 18, 2013 at 11:38PM
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