1rst order from Burlington!

bluegirl_gwNovember 29, 2012

NICE plants! Well packed--not one broken stem. Fast--ordered the week before Thanksgiving, they shipped this Monday & I just got them today.

Really stout plants in bands. Most look like they have a couple of plants in them & the main stems are at least as thick as a thick straw--not matchsticks. Most are well leafed out, all have lots of healthy buds, all double tagged.

And Ms. Leong sent me DRESDEN DOLL--FREE--a rose I was wishing to order anyway. Very good plants & service, and a generous lady.

Read & drool:

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jerijen(Zone 10)

Burling is -- wonderful.
A really really neat lady and good at what she does. Nice list of roses.



    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 3:40PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

bluegirl, I'm glad your first order turned out so wonderfully. I have Marie Pavie and Lady Hillingdon (the climbing form) and really like both.

This is not meant as a criticism since I feel the roses will probably be all right, but my order of La France and Devoniensis turned out to be little sticks with a few leaves, and Devoniensis has a wound in its stem. However, both have tiny little protrusions that will hopefully turn into leaves, and I realize that Devoniensis and La France are wimpy plants at the best of times as babies. I'll be watching them with hope every day and, who knows, by spring I may even have a flower or two.


    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 5:41PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Ingrid, if you received un-satisfactory plants, did you contact her with regard to the problem?


    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 6:13PM
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strawchicago(zone 5a)

Even the biggest one from Burlington, Paul Neyron didn't do well when I put him in pot, but full-sun. Full sun is hard for bands to grow roots. But the wimpy pathetic one, Mirandy, perked up when I put it in partial shade, and gave it nitrogen fertilizer. Blood meal NPK of 12-0-0 will turn anything into monster. It once turned my marigold into 3 feet tall, but no blooms.

For my next 10 bands from Burlington, I'll put them in Moisture-control-potting-soil, partial shade, with alfalfa meal, plus Lilly Miller 10-5-6 fertilizer for acid loving plants ... the acid helps to counter-act my alkaline tap water, which inhibits root growth. Lilly Miller contains both chemical nitrogen fertilizer and chicken manure.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 6:18PM
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I'm replacing some of the LOTS of roses I used to grow. And experimenting with later shipments--like now. Whether by luck or season, all the roses I've received have been far more substantial than what I typically received when I asked for March/April shipments. CRIMSON GLORY was smallest, but I was impressed with LADY HILLINGDON's size as the last own-root plant I had was a real slow grower--though worth the wait.

ya happy now STRAWBERRYHILL, you temptress? I told her the'd been chatted up considerably on GardenWeb.

Hope all of ya'll's little guys recover. I know I'm risking a freeze, but most of our winters here are misty & cool with limited hard freezes.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 7:22PM
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She doesn't ship here unfortunately.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 9:16PM
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I got my Devoniensis band elsewhere and it too was a small twig. It's growing slowly and I'm glad I ordered it. Even if it was small, still it took effort to root and ship and I really like watching it grow.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 11:07PM
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strawchicago(zone 5a)

Hi Bluegirl: I promoted Annie Laurie and mini Norwich Sweetheart since they can be planted by baby squirrels burying their nuts for the winter ... and you won't need a team of gorillas chopping holes for you like planting grafted big fat Dr. Huey.

I got 14 bands from Burlington last year, these are the right and wrongs I did - but repent for my sins and did not whine nor whimper to Burling:

Right: I put them in pots, with Moisure-control-potting soil, topdressed with alfalfa meal for growth hormone.

Right: I bought cheapo black plastic pots, 2-gallons each for $3, with indentation on the bottom for better drainage. Roots grow twice faster in those pots than the pretty styprofoam ones.

Wrong: I put them in full-sun, their roots could not grow, being dried out in 90 to 100 degrees summer.

Wrong: My styrofoam pots were sitting on a cement patio, their flat bottoms got plugged up. In our non-stop all day rain, they became bathtubs. I should had elevated the bottoms with bricks, so they drain better.

Right: I received wimpy Mirandy hybrid tea, 3 inches tall, with 3 utterly yellow leaves. I tried alfalfa meal, acid nitrogen fertilizer, nothing work. Finally I tried blood meal with iron, it became dark green immediately and flowered within a month.

Right: I did extensive research to see if I need to waste $10 on a bag of superphosphate for root growth. Professor Linda Chalker-Scott debunked that myth of phosphorus, since it's only deficient in sandy soil. Check out the link below. She confirmed my suspicion that iron and nitrogen stimulate phosphorus uptake by plants, better than bonemeal and phosphorus supplement. I checked the ingredients of a commercial mix to stimulate root growth, used in transplant: it has vitamin B1 (thiamine), Vitamin C (ascorbic acid), plus Iron, with pH acidic at 6 to 6.4. Willow water has salicylic acid, and plants can't root well with alkaline tap water, but best with rain water at pH of 5 to 6.

Annie tripled in size when I gave it ACID fertilizer NPK of 10-5-4 with tripled iron, and I fixed my alkaline tap water with used lemons (vitamin C is good for root growth). Austin Elantyne with Rugosa heritage HATES everything I gave: alfalfa meal, acid fertilizer NPK 10-5-6, but grew well with blood meal, NPK 12-0-0, with iron. Professor Linda Chalker-Scott is right that nitrogen and iron helps uptake of phosphorus, essential for root growth

Right: My husband noticed that OGRs Paul Neyron and Comte de Chambord were not growing in full-sun, I came to my sense and moved Annie' and Paul Neyron' pots to partial shade. They shot up immediately with our constant fall rain. After 8 months, Comte de Chambord in full sun has tiny root, versus 2-gallon rootball of Annie, which I transferred from pot to ground in November before the snow came.

Right: I did not expect own-roots to perform like Dr. Huey, who can sit in warehouse dry as bare-root for months. I realize that I can't treat young rootings the same way as Dr. Huey, his root can go through hard-rock clay better than my shovel and a rototiller machine. Once I start rooting roses from cuttings, I realize how difficult it is for tiny own-roots to survive without constant moisture. Own-roots are tiny rootings, best grown in 4 hours of morning sun - rather than full-blast sun and into the dry soil, which guarantee their demise.

Here is a link that might be useful: Myth on phosphorus for rooth growth

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 12:39PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

One thing you said, Strawberry ...

Once you have some experience in rooting cuttings and growing them out, You will have a better understanding about about how things will go with small own-root plants you purchase.


    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 1:33PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

Jeri, I haven't contacted Burling because as long as the roses are alive and have little leaf buds I think they're going to be okay, in spite of Devoniensis' damage. I'm reluctant to contact a nursery unless there's an obvious mistake or the plant is dead. I've recently purchased some fertilizer for acid-loving plants in order to make my red The Dark Lady more purple and I'm going to try that on these little guys, since I also have alkaline soil. I've already given them a small amount of alfalfa meal. Thanks for the tip, strawberry hill.


    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 3:01PM
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You know, what many don't consider is not all plants are equal. Not all cuttings are equal. Some propagate easily and well, others do not. Some cuttings take off like a house afire, others don't. Many WILL make it, IF given the appropriate treatment.

Here is an extreme example. Both are the same rose (Annie Laurie McDowell); both are from the same batch of cuttings, propagated identically (wrapped), at the same time, January 2012.

This one was from the "ideal" cutting, grown on from the foam cup into a gallon then two gallon and planted in one of the worst spots I have, but the only place I have to maintain a climber where I can actually enjoy it. This is the south side of the house, with full, southern heat and sun. The soil is the average "junk dirt" this hill is made of. There are many moles which will not be denied their space. There is tremendous reflected heat and laser beam sun reflected off the mirrored living room window above it to the right. I don't do ladders, never have, so I have to wait to budget hiring someone to build a suitable shade to go over that window. These plants get burned by the reflected light off that window. It was sufficient to kill the tomatoes I tried growing there. The plants are caged in wire to prevent the moles from getting right into the root balls, but they loosen the soil around the cages so there is water stress.

This was propagated from the terminal, actual flowering tip of the cane. It is what is usually said not to use as there are no growth buds to form new growth. I did it as an experiment and it rooted. I grew it in the 16 oz foam cup, then into the "pot" it currently grows in. I posted earlier photos of it on my blog.

The cutting took and formed a basal from the callus at the bottom. All photos are from about an hour ago. Wood with NO growth buds has produced this shoot.

Failure to thrive is common with any production of any plant type, any variety, any rose. Many haven't made it into production simply because they refused to produce sufficient percentages of suitable plants. Harkness, in his book, Roses, wrote of Pink Favorite that to nurserymen it was a "boring rose". Every bud produced a Grade 1 plant which flourished. J&P tried Henry Fonda own root, even advertised it would be offered the following year as a "New Generation Rose" (own root) then had to back track because while it would root, it didn't produce the quality of plant required. Week's tried Midnight Blue as their "Shrublet" own root roses and found the same, yet you can find them offered own root by others today.

I recently had correspondence with Tom Carruth over just this. He emailed me asking how Eyes for You grows for me. He stated they tested it at Week's for three years and it refused to grow for them. To be commercially viable, a rose has to produce at least 60% Grade 1 plants from either budding or own root. Eyes for You barely produced 40% Grade 1 plants. They also tested Bull's Eye, which is susceptible to mildew, where Eyes for You is very resistant to mildew. Bull's Eye is no where near as healthy nor "seductive" as Eyes, but it produced the required percentage of the required quality of plant for successful production.

We talk about "success rates" for cuttings. Some fail, even with our best attentions. Others succeed in spite of our worst inattention. Some varieties root right down the line, as Ralph Moore reported from the initial cuttings he propagated from Out of the Night from the terribly yellowed, stressed original seedling. Sequoia never promoted Softee because to Mr. Moore, it was too hard to root. Others, no matter what you do to or for them, obstinately refuse to strike, period. Some types are notoriously obstinate to propagate. Many Teas and Chinas are of this type. Quite often, just getting the bloody thing to root, period, is a miracle. To receive a beautiful, well rooted plant of many of them is a miracle. Most, unless they've been potted for several seasons, are going to be wimpy, scrawny plants and are going to require "nursing" in good soil, potted where they will have warm roots and protected against the extremes of your climate.

Begin propagating your own. You will quickly see how cuttings which appear to be identical, aren't. Some are going to explode into growth and make gorgeous plants pretty quickly. Others will out right fail, or root, but fail to thrive, for whatever reason. MANY, if treated properly, will produce plants worth growing. Very often, you aren't ever going to know precisely why they did, or didn't perform as expected. Kim

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 3:24PM
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Strawberryhill, thank you for the interesting article. I don't add phosphorus except in the planting hole & I add it then because virtually all TX soil is low in it--it's a real problem for ranchers trying to maintain healthy mother cows. I have also occasionally done what the author suggests (also in "Roses for Dummies) of adding only the most needed element--nitrogen--by tossing small amounts of ammonium nitrate to each plant. I like to start off the year with fermented alfalfa & supplement throughout the rest of the growing season with compost & other organic foods/soil improvers.

The thin soil in my present location is alkaline--limestone hills, caliche, & the well water has considerable calcium & iron (don't know if it's an available form). Its a bare lot of native growth--no improved soil added but what we are hauling in. I have noticed a real healthy burst from roses treated with, say, Ironite or ocassional epsom salts dose in my former coastal location. There I had an inexhaustible supply of acidic oak leaves & cow & rabbit manure which quickly broke down in the subtropical climate. Here it's a whole new learning experience. Little native soil, fewer resources to compost & a slower composting rate.

Kim, re. ease of getting cuttings to strike, I'm amazed to read that you find teas & Chinas in general to be slower to strike. In my former climate they were the foundation for my swapping career as they were so easy for this amateur to root. don't know about here--I'm low on teas, though the Chinas I've tried so far are easy here, too. I have found teas slower to grow-off to mature blooming plants, but not exceptionally slow.

Easiest of all for me? CALDWELL PINK (whatever it IS) hands-down. I've had clippings thrown on the compost heap root. I don't even bother with hormone or special media.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 5:57PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Chinas strike easily for us, too. Even within the family of Chinas, tho, some take off faster than others.

I went out to the motorhome this afternoon, to bring in a teapot I wanted to use inside. I noticed that "John Pearce" (probably 'Safrano') is busy throwing up new canes. That's good, because he had some sun-scald before we got him into the ground, and I'd been concerned about him.

To his right, "Elisabeth's China," planted at the same time, is a wow, with multiple canes coming up all over.

But to the left of "John Pearce," there's little "White Christmas" (probably 'Ducher,') which looks happy, but remains about 7 inches tall.

We just happen to have a "spare" plant of "Elisabeth's China," so I think we'll pull little "White Christmas" up and pot it up, and replace it with "Elisabeth's China."


    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 6:41PM
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strawchicago(zone 5a)

Hi Bluegirl and Jeri: You are right that China roots easily. A majority of minis are descendants of China. Minis like heat. I gave my 2 minis away since they are stunt in my constant rain and poor-drainage wet clay.

Since my soil is high in limestone, bone meal and rock phosphate is useless in pH above 7, phosphorus is tied up with calcium and magnesium at pH above 7 (per University of Colorado Extension info). Once I brought the pH down with peatmoss and composted pine bark, it worked. There's a way around the high pH problem: soluble phosphorus. There's an Australian paper on phosphorus works better in soluble, or liquid form. Chicago Botanical Gardens with 5,000 roses, pH of 7.4, recommends a 20-20-20 soluble fertilizer 3 times a year for zone 5.

From your list, Bluegirl, Louis Odier, Crimson Glory, and Marie Pavie are all vigorous in alkaline clay, and will grow roots easily, if there's plenty of moisture. Those stand the best chance of survival as bands.

I like what Kim Rupert once wrote: "The larger the rootball, the smaller the chance of it dying due to extreme heat or cold." Romanticas grows HUGE rootballs as own-roots in my alkaline clay, they stand the best chance of survival in my zone 5a.... but they died on someone else in Chicagoland with acidic soil. Comte de Chambord is hardy to zone 4, but it hates my alkaline soil, and has tiny root - the chance of winter survival is slim. In contrast, Annie Laurie McDowell's rootball is at least 2 gallons, her chance is good in my zone 5a, although she died on Seil, zone 6b.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 8:42PM
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In our lower humidity, higher heat inland SoCal climates, Teas and a number of Chinas are more temperamental rooters. None of them root as quickly, easily or consistently as many moderns such as Brown Velvet, Cardinal Hume, a number of the multiflora type polys, Iceberg, etc. Mlle. Cecile Brunner and Perle d'Or are witches to root here in comparison. Even using the wrapping method, many moderns are quite fast and easy in comparison. It appears to be a climatic difference to me. Where Teas are "happier" due to higher humidity and more tempered heat, they appear to also root more easily. Stress them with high heat and low humidity and they resist. Kim

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 10:10PM
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Floridarose - Phytosanitary Certificates Required For The Following States: Arizona, Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia. I'm going to do a very large order in the Spring. I hope to pick up some Ralph Moore roses I do not have, as well as a lot of others I'm sure. Can not wait! I've been wanting to buy from her for years!

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 11:29PM
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Strawberryhill, how interesting about the relation of phos. to pH. Yeah, I need to do some serious research on combating alkaline soil. My former location also had alkaline black clay (gumbo) soil, but not so extreme as these limestone hills. There was some info on Gardenweb about combating caliche--some people dump vinegar or even muratic acid in the planting holes to bust through a layer of caliche. I'm digging huge holes & using good soil with a lot of bark mixed in. Plus, oh-so-slowly, cooking up compost & adding lots of cedar mulch to the surface.

Re. climate, this climate is SO much better for roses. Even in summer, the evenings are cool & dry. And most of the year the evenings are somewhat chilly, no matter how hot the days are. Blooms can fry, but when the plants are well-watered & mulched the flower form & color is so much better & the blooms last much longer.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 11:34PM
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strawchicago(zone 5a)

Hi Bluegirl: I like your approach in breaking up limestone soil... I'm doing the same with composted pine mulch (acidic) mixed with my clay soil. Six months later I dug up the hole and it's nice and fluffy, no more gluing up like peat moss or mixed-in-horse-manure.

There's a discussion on whether sulfur is necessary to adjust high pH of soil, in the soil forum. The vote from experienced folks is "No", just plant the right stuff that do well in that range. Dr. Huey is an aggressive root system, very good in secreting acid which breaks through my heavy clay easier than my shovel. I found his root extending 4 feet in all directions in my rock-hard clay. My neighbor put a bed of HT's grafted on Dr. Huey - they bloomed like mad the first year, but died through our zone 5a winter.

See below link for Acid phosphatase of plant roots. Cluster root like Dr. Huey is known to secret acid to break through clay soil. The humic acid released from composted pine bark also conditions clay soil. The roots of Meiland roses like Firefighter and Romantica Sweet Promise Hybrid tea are extremely aggressive as own-root. I can't even plant annuals close to those HTs', it's a web-like dense root system. They give me tons of blooms as 1st year own-roots. There are plenty of phosphorus for root-growth and blooming in my limestone clay soil, and some plant roots can easily unlock the phosphorus-tied-up in calcium or magnesium.

Here is a link that might be useful: Acid phosphatase secretion by roots

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 12:34PM
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Thank you for another very interesting link. Now I'm wondering whether "low phos" TX soils are instead just too alkaline to allow phos. uptake. hmm, most of state is covered with Cretaceous limestones. Your Dr. Huey story rings true. Had one in the old place in a brick-hard heat blasted bed that thrived. People there landscaped with azaleas (yeah, I know, it doesn't make sense) I used to water in sulfur each spring & lay on the shredded pine bark to keep them from getting chlorotic--which seemed to work & is a lot cheaper than Ironite

I'm going to try green manures this season. Have some Palestinian clover & some hard winter wheat on order. Also planting the white alyssium recommended here--Lowe's is practically throwing away winter annuals now.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 4:53PM
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strawchicago(zone 5a)

That's funny about Texans planting azaleas! Sounds like what Kim Rupert warns, "Don't raise penguins in the desert." I'm next to a limestone quarry, my soil has a chalky limestone layer at the bottom, and less than 1 foot of black topsoil on top. Chamblees in Texas sent me 4 Austins roses: Evelyn, Charles Darwin, Scepter'd Isle, and Eglantyne. All have several blooms, except for Eglantyne. If Chamblee can't make Eglantyne bloom, no one can. Even GRAFTED Eglantyne at the rose park has 5 blooms per bush. So I dug a hole, put superphosphate in it as recommended by Roses Unlimited, plus Hollytone & peatmoss to acidify the soil ... it was a disaster, Eglantyne hated it and lost leaves. I moved Eglantyne elsewhere ... it bloomed.

That's the 3rd time I burnt a plant by phosphorus fertilizer in the planting hole. The 1st time I dumped bone meal on geraniums ... their color deepened, but they got burnt and died. Bone meal is OK for spring bulbs, which don't have fragile roots like plants.

Last year I didn't put any bone meal nor superphosphate in the planting hole, and my roses bloomed well the 1st year. Bone meal, or chemical phosphorus is both expensive, and risk burning roots. Even the fish fertilizer "Alaska Bloom Plus" high in phosphorus has reports of burning roots. Plants' roots are capable of extracting phosphorus from the soil, with nitrogen and iron helping them. Both pine mulch and peat moss lower the pH, and diluted soluble phosphorus is safe to use to pump out blooms and helps plants to root.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 11:31PM
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sandandsun(9a FL)

Hi bluegirl,

I noticed that you said it looked like there may be more than one rooted cutting in some of the pots. With your stated experience rooting cuttings, you may not need this, but the link below is to a post where I already wrote about that situation. Hope it helps.

I have sand, and no first hand knowledge of the caliche. However, I tried growing TX bluebonnets from seed thinking wildflowers outta be able to.... Well, only after two years of failure, in the third year with fall planting and amending their bed with manure did they thrive and bloom. So, there must be fertile TX soil because they wouldn't perform without fertility. I hope you have it and can unlock it!

Congratulations on the wise timing of your order. I only order in autumn for here in zone 9. I'm glad you're as pleased with yours as I've been with mine.

One other thing. I LOVE Francis, but you should not expect too much from him. He's generally not an attractive plant. When it comes time to site him I wouldn't put him in or near a focal point. I'd wager though that when you get your first whiff, you'll never care that he's ugly.

GENERAL NOTE: Love Dr. LCS! If anyone reads this, when she wrote "mycorrhizal infection of root systems," she certainly could have chosen a better word than "infection" for the lay person. In no way did she mean it in the common use of the word.

Here is a link that might be useful: SDLM - is it a slow grower?

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 5:58PM
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Thanks, sandandsun. Yeah, multiplants crossed my mind but I didn't have the nerve to mess with them yet. I will at next re-potting. When I'm separating cuttings it's useful to use a hose gently streaming into a small basin.

I had Francis years ago (Chamblees) & he was a indifferent grower--ahh, but the blooms!

Re. bluebonnets--they can be slow to establish a good stand from seed. Most people here plant scarified, soaked, seed in fall. And yeah, it takes a couple of years for them to establish & self-propagate. We're lucky & can transplant natives. It's the only lupine we can grow & the true blue color is exceptional. Glad to hear you've got a good plot going.

    Bookmark   December 4, 2012 at 9:53AM
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Blue and Red Flax from seed are wonderful SoCal substitutes for the Bluebonnets. Seed is easily obtainable and they reseed very efficiently. They help shield some of the roses in the hotter spots from rabbits and help prevent the soil from baking dry as quickly. Kim

    Bookmark   December 4, 2012 at 2:44PM
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sandandsun(9a FL)

I really appreciate your expectation about my bluebonnets, but that's not the reality. The third year success was as annuals. They did not survive the summer and I contented myself with having at least had a beautiful show of them for one season, lol. When I go to that amount of trouble for an annual now, it is short day sweet peas - it's a fragrance thing.

Because I'm well aware that there can be multiple paths to success, I offer the following only for consideration. I have found that transplanting, planting, and dividing all work best (for me) when the soil in the garden or in the pot is on the dry side. When possible I like to maintain soil on roots when dividing because most plants rely on "root hairs," or very tiny roots that branch off the main ones to actually interface with the soil. Washing roots clean of soil theoretically maintains them, so I understand why one would like that method. When using the dry method, some roots are able to retain soil during division and this minimizes the shock of transplanting. And in the event that any beneficial fungi exist in the soil, they move with the plant. Then they get watered in really well after the move. I've had much more success since I started doing it this way vs. when I was indifferent to the initial moisture content.

Francis is showing color in another bud now. He can be such a tease. Can't wait!
Since you are the only person I'm aware of that will have had plants from different sources, please let us know if they are the same. You've probably read the Francis/Barcelona theory. It would be interesting if Chamblees and Burlington's were from different stock. Thanks in advance on that report.

    Bookmark   December 4, 2012 at 5:22PM
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Oh, I don't know how helpful I can be. Is there an argument regarding whether one source has a true Frances vs Barcelona? I'll check HMF. I should receive Burlington's Frances tomorrow & will report when I see some blooms, but don't know if my memory will be reliable. Don't have any photos of old Chamblees Frances, but IIRC the flowers were a deep scarlet with no white. Not black-red like Chrysler Imperial, but very dark, good fragrance.

I used to visit with Frank at Chamblees a lot & he was real interesting regarding different plants & their origins. Chamblees also used to always have a lot of 'experimental' plants--they were the first nursery I personally visited where you could get the newest Austins, Bucks, etc. & would stock unusual colored roses like Irish Creme, Macho Man & some florist roses that did well in the garden--.eg. Lady Diana. I'm talking 10 yrs ago or so, when I was in Tyler regularly on business. Frank was great--he's tell me straight out: "you don't want THAT", as I was drooling over a Rugosa or some other rose totally inappropriate for my climate.

last bluebonnet observation: Individual plants tend to last as annuals or biennials. The seeds come up randomly--some right after seed-drop in early summer, continuing throughout the year, especially with any rain. I have babies dime-sized to 3-4" tall right now.

    Bookmark   December 4, 2012 at 9:28PM
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Okay, checked HMF & read Kim's interesting comments re. Barcelona/Francis. All I can say is photos look like that of the plant I had. Don't know if Frank still works at Chamblees, but my impression at that time was that he was happy to discuss where their stock originated.

    Bookmark   December 4, 2012 at 9:47PM
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Kim I have a question regarding cuttings that grow slowly

When a slow growing cutting becomes a plant is it usual that the plant will be slower growing in general than one that showed more vigorous growth when it was band sized? I'm not thinking of varieties that are just slow to grow generally but those which are average or usually quicker growing ones. I know weather has something to do with this but I sometimes wonder if I should order another band when the one I have takes forever to build into a bush. I know some canes can be more vigorous than others and likewise two plants of the same variety starting off can grow differently. I ordered 2 bands of Tiffany and clearly one is outgrowing the other. My intention was to plant them next to each other but I think one will overshadow the other in the ground.

Also, do you ever see weaker growing parent plants that had cuttings taken and the new plants were more robust?

    Bookmark   December 4, 2012 at 10:32PM
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sandandsun(9a FL)

I feel awful. I didn't want you to go to all that trouble. I just hoped that in a year or so, I could ask and you'd say whether the one you used to have and this one were indistinguishable.

Below is a direct link to a photo of Barcelona from hoovb's blog. It's what has me wondering, but let's let the question rest until your new rose is at home.
Thanks again.
And really I didn't mean for you to do all that. But I would like to ask in a year or so.

Here is a link that might be useful: Barcelona

    Bookmark   December 4, 2012 at 10:34PM
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I've seen it work both ways, Kitty. Very often, you really can't determine why a cutting just fails to thrive. You can theorize and experiment with many variables and many will respond to something, but not all. It could be the weaker one hadn't the stored resource levels the more vigorous one did. Perhaps it dried out somewhere along the way and hasn't caught up yet? There are many possibilities and what you "should" do depends upon whether paying for a new plant exceeds the amount having two identical plants is worth to you.

Very often, trying to propagate from an older, more geriatric plant can be extremely difficult. As the wood ages, the capillaries do constrict, reducing sap flow and causing the geriatric plant to become less productive and less vital and vigorous. You see it more with plants which haven't reproduced themselves, kept themselves more vital through basal production. "One cane wonders" frequently become just this type of plant. Trying to root cuttings from these often results in more failures than successes.

Propagating at The Huntington as a volunteer, I frequently encountered the issue. Clair Martin, the Curator of Roses at the time, said you frequently had to "reintroduce juvenility" into the variety to make it easier to propagate. Once you can get a cutting to take and gain momentum, propagating from the new plant has been tremendously easier than from the old, woody one. What made the most sense to me about this is the old plant was likely malnourished from reduced sap flow, so cuttings taken from it lacked all the necessary resources to propagate as easily. Once the plant was new, with more open capillaries and better sap flow, cuttings from it most often rooted much faster and easier, probably because they had more of what they required for propagation. We'd frequently propagate from newly produced plants instead of the old bushes because they rooted faster and easier. Kim

    Bookmark   December 4, 2012 at 11:00PM
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No trouble. I think it's interesting to know that Francis D. in American commerce appears to be Barcelona.

Kim, that's interesting about rejuvenation through propagation. Your explanation makes a lot of sense. Several of the roses I have in the ground now are cuttings raised from now-dead mother plants.

    Bookmark   December 4, 2012 at 11:45PM
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I thought it was work to make the cuttings! The growers have to be constantly replacing their plants as well. Looks like I better practice making cuttings if I'm going to want my favorites around a long time.

    Bookmark   December 5, 2012 at 11:45AM
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TNY78(7a-East TN)

Love ordering from her! Usually she will throw in a freebee I've noticed, which I think is wonderful of her :) Also, living on the East Coast, I usually have to shell out a ton of money for shipping, but she ships very reasonably. I haven't placed a spring order yet...but I'm sure I'll at least get a couple of minis from her :)


    Bookmark   December 5, 2012 at 11:52AM
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Kitty, as long as mother plants are kept juvenile, grown well, pruned properly to stimulate new basals to replace all the old, woody, unproductive material, it remains productive and can be properly propagated from. Some varieties are going to become geriatric more quickly. Some because of genetics, some because of climatic unsuitability, some because of improper sight placement or bad culture, and those will have to be replaced more frequently. It's been common in several nurseries I've been familiar with to grow mother plants of difficult varieties in large cans to more easily maintain and keep track of them. For some, such as Grey Pearl, Fantan, Polly and any others which grow reluctantly and can easily go sour on you for no apparent reason, growing many propagation plants simultaneously is the only way to go. But, yes, eventually the mother plants should be replaced. Some much sooner and much more frequently than others. Kim

    Bookmark   December 5, 2012 at 1:42PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

I just wanted to come back on to say that my fragile little plants are doing well, and I'm quite sure they'll be fine. I always plant bands straight into the ground, which I know is frowned on by many, but in my climate it seems to work quite well, which I suspect has something to do with the dry warmth here. I added Lilly Miller acid fertilizer to my alkaline soil around these youngsters and I noticed this morning that the wound on Devoniensis' stem seems to have callused over. Yeay!


    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 1:14PM
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There are so many variables which can either help or hinder success planting bands directly in the ground, Ingrid, all I can add is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. You obviously have the right combination of variables, including your attending to them like a good "rose mom" enough to make that work. Kim

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 3:47PM
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strawchicago(zone 5a)

Hi Ingrid: I just went on to the Lily Miller website regarding using aluminum sulfate to turn hydrangea blue, or to make your Dark Lady rose less bright red. Their site has a warning: "DO NOT USE ALUMINUM SULFATE with high phosphate fertilizer, since a reaction occurs which makes phosphorus unavailable." This translate to NO bloom, which is worse than a wrong-color bloom.

The Lily Miller acid fertilizer NPK 10-5-4 is meant for ONE time usage in spring only, since it's has slow-released nitrogen (chicken manure) which lasts a long time. The down-fall is it also has fast-release nitrogen, high in salt. I used too much and kill my one rhododrendron... it's doomed since it's planted next to a limestone foundation. The other azaleas & rhodies and one multiflora rose gave more blooms this spring with Lily Miller for acid-loving-plants. The key is one time only in spring with plenty of rain.

Thanks to your thread in the Antique Roses Forum "Non-performers", I did research on fertilizer. My conclusion? Best to stick with low-salt blood meal for fast nitrogen and iron release (only if the entire plant is really yellow, too much you won't get any blooms). Also safe is SOLUBLE low-salt potassium phosphate for high phosphorus essential for blooms and root-growth. Phosphorus is bind up in alkaline soil with calcium hydroxide (lime) in tap water or soil, also with magnesium in clay soil.

The aluminum sulfate to change flower color to blue-shade will bind up with phosphorus, and you'll get less bloom. Hopefully you didn't get aluminum sulfate. Sulfur is OK to fix alkalinity.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 10:20PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

strawberryhill, I should have read the directions more carefully; you're right, it should be applied in spring. Well, what's done is done and it'll be interesting to see what happens. I do have the aluminum sulfate, which I gather is wrong. Since the weather is so mild here maybe the roses won't know that it isn't spring. I'm certainly not going to tell them!

Thank you for the info; I really appreciate it. The Dark Lady is still putting out new growth and buds and it may be that I didn't put on enough to make a really big difference in bloom production.


    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 11:13PM
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