Cloning

henryinctDecember 10, 2013

After we moved to southern California it didn't take long to find out how big the marijuana business is here. You can actually get a permit to grow 10 plants for your own use and I known a person who does this (and grows very high quality weed I might add). I asked her how she does this and she told me that she buys tiny little pot plants called clones. She said you can't plant seeds because the plants don't make seeds so you have to buy the clones. I said what the heck are clones and apparently they are minute little cuttings taken from the plant or even roots that are planted in a solution or medium. Of course I thought immediately I wonder if this works with roses? Anybody heard of this? Great minds want to know.

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seil zone 6b MI

All the roses you buy commercially are clones. Roses, except for a few species varieties, do not grow true to variety from seed. Every single seed inside a rose hip is a new variety of it's own. So if you plant seeds from a Peace rose you will NOT get another Peace rose. Instead you will get a totally different genetic mix and the rose could look similar to Peace or be entirely different depending on the pollen used to fertilize the hip. Even when roses are self pollinated they will still be a different rose because of the difference in the genetic mix. If you want to make more of that exact same variety you have to "clone'' it either by grafting some of that roses plant material unto a root stock or by rooting cuttings.

    Bookmark   December 10, 2013 at 3:37PM
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hoovb zone 9 sunset 23

How do you know it is high-quality weed? ;^)

    Bookmark   December 10, 2013 at 3:40PM
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henryinct

I never heard the word "cloning" used with plants and my understanding is that cloning and rooting cuttings are not the same thing. Pot is an annual and I didn't know you could root an annual from a cutting. They apparently do not root a cutting when they make a clone but I don't know what they do.

    Bookmark   December 10, 2013 at 4:40PM
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seil zone 6b MI

As far as I know anytime you propagate or reproduce a plant by using material from an original plant, and not a seed, it is considered a clone of the original plant because it contains the exact same genetic material as the original plant.

    Bookmark   December 10, 2013 at 4:48PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

A clone is a new individual genetically identical to (and grown from) another individual, grown from a piece of that original individual. What's done with the cannabis is basically the same which is done with other plants -- a cutting is taken from a plant, the cutting is conditioned to grow roots, and the result is a new plant which is identical to the original plant. If you ever see multiple plants with the same cultivar name in a nursery, they are clones of the original which arose from a seed.

:-)

~Christopher

    Bookmark   December 10, 2013 at 5:28PM
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SouthCountryGuy Zone 4b-5 SE BC(Zone 4b-5 SE BC Canada)

Actually they do produce seeds and can be grown from such. The reason they purchase "clones" is that the cuttings are from a female plant which produce the 'desirable' flowers. When growing from seeds male plants are pulled as swiftly as they can be identified.

    Bookmark   December 10, 2013 at 6:05PM
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roseseek

Henry, MANY plants can be rooted, including annuals. Ralph Moore grew the same tomatoes, peppers, delphiniums and a number of other annual plants for many years simply by rooting cuttings of the selections he favored under mist in summer and over wintering them in his green houses. They would have produced and grown from seeds, but these were selections he particularly liked and wished to enjoy the identical types year after year.

As Christopher and Seil said, "cloning" is simply asexual reproduction, whether it's rooting, budding, grafting, tissue culturing or other methods of reproduction not involving germinating seeds. Kim

    Bookmark   December 10, 2013 at 11:37PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Cloning is popular because it is possible to force the plant into flowering early, thereby determining height and size (and yield)....whereas seed grown plants take a lot longer to reach flowering size (around 6months if grown outside) - a good weed grower can get a harvest from a small cloned cutting, in as little as 12 weeks - 2 weeks to root the cuttings, 3 weeks of vegetative growth and 7 weeks to full flowering maturity (and can do this all year round under lights). Rooted soft tip cuttings of many plants are absolutely the same as the cannabis starts - whether it is an annual, perennial or even a biennial is entirely immaterial - life wants to reproduce from particular cells (meristem cells) which carry the full genetic load of the entire plant.

Hmmm, do I sound suspiciously knowledgeable here?

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 7:09AM
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caldonbeck(UK (8))

I was just thinking that camps, you secretly a stoner with a garage full of plants? Or is that horsebox of yours not really for horses lol.

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 12:13PM
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SouthCountryGuy Zone 4b-5 SE BC(Zone 4b-5 SE BC Canada)

It is quite interesting how climate changes growing. Our outdoor seed crops harvest in the same 12 week period (our full growing season) but are generally substantially lower in quality.

It is interesting how the cannabis industry has coined some phrases like 'cloning'. Where a gardener would call it a cutting or as my mom would say, a slip.

For the OP if your friend does a google search for seeds including 'Vancouver BC' you will come up with quite a few very good seed retailers.

If a person grows from seeds you MUST research on how to identify male plants. One male plant can pollinate a whole crop virtually destroying its value for consumption. Unless, of course, you are into producing seeds or hybridizing. This is again why 'clones' are so popular as they guarantee you female plants. The professional, and I am sure Camp will agree *wink*, likes taking and using clones so they don't waste valuable resources rearing male plants.

My knowledge is, of course, second hand.

SCG

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 12:45PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Well no, the horsebox is definitely not full of horses....but I can also say, hand on heart, that the garage is not full of cars either (but had been a useful space until the youngest left us a handy free bedroom, much further away from our front door)

Despite years of propaganda and nagging, every one of my children came to horticulture through the more nefarious cultivation of class c's.....and since 2 of them now earn a legal wage from professional gardening, I have every reason to be thankful.

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 12:57PM
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henryinct

You can learn so much here but I'm still not sure that my original question was answered. What I really wondered is how clones are mass produced easily and is this done from roots as well as from growing tips (apical stems). We know that meristematic cells from the meristem material in the growing stem tip are completely undifferentiated which means they contain all the genetic material necessary to replicate the plant. However, the root apical meristems also contain meristematic cells which means that growing root tips as well as growing stem tips should in theory be able to produce clones. There certainly are a lot more root tips than there are stem tips so wouldn't this be the better way to produce clones? And what about roses? If you cut off some growing roots of own root roses, soak them in a hormone solution and plant them in a media might you produce rose clones? I think I'll give it a try.

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 3:13PM
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jacqueline9CA

Every rose sold commercially in the world is a clone of the desired cultivar. Rooted cuttings ARE clones. If a rose is grafted onto another roses roots, both the roots and the scion are clones of the rose they were taken from.

Of course, roses which might naturally hybridize in your garden or in the wild (we call them "volunteers" in the garden) are not clones, but are new hybrids.

It is not that mysterious - there are lots of different ways to make clones (genetically identical plants) - but rooting cuttings is definitely one of them.

Jackie

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 4:26PM
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SouthCountryGuy Zone 4b-5 SE BC(Zone 4b-5 SE BC Canada)

Henry,

In my second hand experience clones were taken from growing tips. Folks would root cuttings, slips, clones or whatever you want to call them while maintaining ScrOG (Screen Of Green). I have never seen them taken from roots but can't see why it wouldn't work.

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 5:04PM
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seil zone 6b MI

Nurseries have "mother" plants of the rose varieties they want to propagate for sale. They take MANY cuttings and stick them for rooting to produce the stock they need for own root plants. They can also take many bud eyes from them to graft on to their preferred root stock as well. In this manner they can produce thousands of plants for sale depending on the size of the nursery. Smaller nurseries may only root a dozen or two of a particular variety where as the huge growers who supply nurseries and big box stores nationwide may produce thousands of a particular variety to sell.

I do not know if it is possible to use the root tips to reproduce or not. I've never heard of this before but it may be possible if you can keep the tissue alive. Kim mentioned tissue culturing and that may be what they use but I don't know anything about the process.

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 5:55PM
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henryinct

I'll just add one more thing. You can tell if a clone is a rooted cutting. The fine new roots spring from the apical meristems of the parent. The marijuana clones at least from the descriptions I have of them are not cuttings but are tiny new plants that look like they were grown from seeds. And yet they are all female plants cloned from a female parent and it may be being done using the roots. And one more thing that I wonder about is why, if it is easy, don't marijuana growers make their own clones? Or rose growers for that matter? I must be missing something.

When I began growing roses there was no such thing as own root roses. It was thought to be impossible to grow modern roses on their own roots. Now it seems to me that not only are roses on their own roots better, which we know they almost always are, but it may be that we can mass produce them easily and cheaply.

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 8:37PM
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roseseek

Henry, commercially propagated roses are mainly from stem cuttings. It's the fastest, simplest and easiest method of production. Yes, root cuttings can be successful, too. That's why so many roses are so blamed persistent from roots left in the soil when the plants are moved. Dr. Huey suckers readily come to mind as an example for roses which resurrect from remaining roots in the soil. Some are far more invasive and persistent than others. Bracteata is IMMORTAL from roots left in the soil, as is its hybrid Mermaid. I've frequently succeeded in growing species and close hybrids of several species from underground sucker growth with roots and little above ground growth. Many modern hybrids aren't as successful from root pieces as those closer to the "wild rose" genes, but it can be done when all the conditions align well. From my observation and experience, it appears the more vigorous the type, the more successful root propagation. I've never had a weaker growing rose ever resurrect from roots which have grown through the pot drainage holes and left in the soil when the pot has been moved. I have had many strong growing OGRs, species and their hybrids defy eradication from leftover roots. Kim

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 8:40PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Henry - more and more commercial propagation actually relies on using the smallest amount of meristematic (sp?) tissue grown in sterile (laboratory) conditions - whereabouts the cells originated on the plant is neither here nor there - the main thing is that such minuscule amounts of clonal material are needed - this is especially significant in plants such as orchids, which are almost all produced through micro-propagation in nutrient enriched gel in test-tubes.
As for growing clones from roots - there are many plants which are propagated in just such a way. Oriental poppies, eryngiums and verbascums have thick roots which are suitable for using, while phlox and some campanulas are propagated in the same way although they have much thinner roots and are usually placed horizontally in a tray and covered in earth. Fatter roots are cut into 2inch lengths and inserted vertically in a growing medium. Theoretically, all plants have the capacity to be propagated thusly but in practice, commercial growers will always select the easiest and most reliable method.....which is micro-propagation at present - although there are still millions of annual bedding plants produced from soft tips in misting rooms.
Cannabis plants grown from seed are often 'feminised seeds' - ie. only producing female plants. These are not a clones, even though the seeds are stable.
Cannabis is a hugely interesting plant - it is, for example, the only annual which is dioecious - that is, some plants are entirely male and others entirely female rather than monoecious, where flowers are both male or female on the same plant (and can, therefore, pollinate itself). It has tendencies to turn into hermaphrodite plants (which is a trait used to create 'feminised' seeds). Moreoever, unsurprisingly, research in plant science has proceeded apace because it is possible to grow multiple generations over a season.....and there are some large amounts of cash about. Michael Pollan (The Botany of Desire and numerous books and articles on the politics of food) has endorsed weed growers as 'the most talented gardeners of his generation'. Whilst not totally agreeing, I would heartily recommend reading some books about growing cannabis (anything by Jorge Cervantes is a good start) for great information about genetics and breeding, nutrition (carbon dioxide dumping was pioneered by cannabis growers and is now harvested in a virtuous cycle of use - often pumped directly into greenhouses), and general plant cultivation.

    Bookmark   December 12, 2013 at 5:36AM
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henryinct

Campanula - Thank you so much. So the answer is that meristematic cells are grown in a culture and then implanted in an environment where they can be induced into developing a full fledged new plant. Micro-propagation. And to think all of this science goes into the production of cannabis which isn't even legal except in a few places like Colorado and California.

    Bookmark   December 12, 2013 at 1:00PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Oh, most cannabis is still grown using standard soft or semi-ripe cuttings, often in some fairly inert material such as rockwool (especially if growers are going down the hydroponic route) while outdoors growers or soil users under lights take cuttings just as you would with any herbaceous plant. Doesn't require bottom heat or misting either as it is quick and easy to root by conventional means.
Micro-propagation is used for either tricky plants such as epiphytes or on a huge commercial scale when scale and speed are crucial. Interestingly, it is often used to 'clean up' virussed plants since the meristem cells are often free of virus which has infected the rest of the plant, so using this technique guarantees virus-free specimens - it was recently used to build up clean stocks of canna after infected stocks of canna had compromised current breeding stocks throughout the UK.

    Bookmark   December 12, 2013 at 4:35PM
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henryinct

I'm guessing that cannabis is a huge business in California, much bigger than the rose business and likely to get bigger still as more states legalize it. Hoovb asked how I knew good weed and I really don't but I'm told it is better than ever. It is rarely smoked at least in the circles we travel in but there is an extract from it that is used in baking. If you go to a party and especially if there are people there who are in what is euphemistically termed the 'industry' you may be served some tasty treats and you may be asked "with' or 'without'.

    Bookmark   December 12, 2013 at 6:08PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Ho, Alice B Toklas and her bosom mate, Gertrude Stein must be rolling about in jollity from some heavenly stoned beyond.

Hash brownies indeed!

    Bookmark   December 13, 2013 at 8:16AM
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jacqueline9CA

In No Cal, large Mexican drug cartels are destroying a lot of our open space and forests by growing pot in the forests in isolated places. They clear cut, leave tons of trash, re-direct & pollute streams, and do an amazing amount of environmental damage. Of course, they also murder anyone who stumbles on their illegal grow operations. I am not talking about locals growing a little for themselves - these are very large operations. Personally, I wish the US Govt would just make it legal and turn its production over to the tobacco companies. Also, of course, tax it and regulate it. At least the tobacco companies would figure out how to produce it without destroying the forests and shooting people. It has become sort of like Prohibition - did not accomplish anything except creating bigger and badder organized crime.

Jackie

    Bookmark   December 13, 2013 at 10:34AM
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Campanula UK Z8

How about legalisation without involving the lying, greedy, murderous and environment destroying tobacco companies? Suggest a look at the behaviour of BAT and Phillip Morris in Africa? These are not benign companies and are as responsible for as much death and misery than even the most vicious cartel.
Perhaps people's co-operatives? Licenced small farmers.

Apols for getting really sniffy here....but tobacco companies???

    Bookmark   December 13, 2013 at 10:48AM
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roseseek

Unfortunately, Camp, we don't have to leave our borders to see how malignant many companies, particularly Philip Morris, are. I won't get started on the numerous attrocities PM (and many others) have perpetrated on humanity, but they are legion. Kim

    Bookmark   December 13, 2013 at 10:59AM
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lynnette

Tissue culture was not always a good way to propagate some plants. David Austin tried tissue culture and you could identify which plants were done that way. They always had many thin straight canes coming from the base. It looked like an explosion of canes. I understand he gave up on the method.

    Bookmark   December 14, 2013 at 6:31PM
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roseblush1(8a/Sunset 7)

Suzy ....

Take a look at the link below. Jackie was describing what is happening in our county.

Lyn

Here is a link that might be useful: Pot And The Environment

    Bookmark   December 14, 2013 at 9:52PM
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Glenburn(z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Aust)

lynnette PNW , could you post here or on another thread which one's might have been done by him please

    Bookmark   December 15, 2013 at 1:49AM
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roseseek

If I'm not mistaken, High Country Rosarium used to tissue culture quite a few roses, too. In the late 80's, when Moet owned Armstrong Roses, they had the corporate connection with Delbard and offered Mr. Lincoln, Prima Donna and Double Delight as tissue cultured "Roselings". They were very small, band sized, own root plants which sold for about $19.95. I grew Mr. Lincoln and my best friend bought the Double Delight for his parents. That was the second most expensive rose I'd bought to that time. Kim

This post was edited by roseseek on Sun, Dec 15, 13 at 2:49

    Bookmark   December 15, 2013 at 1:59AM
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lynnette

I don't have that information Glenburn. I only know that it was very easy to tell the difference. Golden Celebration was one I do know and it always had a strange amount of basal canes coming from the ground and then straight up.

    Bookmark   December 15, 2013 at 3:19AM
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