Could you help me cut down this list?

harmonypDecember 2, 2012

Ok, I've gotten a little carried away. I figured I'd order about 3 or 4 roses for 2012. Right now I have 9 on my list. Without creating a whole new garden area (I'm not seeing the place), I just don't have room. So - I'm going to list some roses here, and please feel free to tell me ones that you haven't had luck with (or know won't do well in my climate) - hopefully it'll give me incentive to lessen the list. I plan to place "an" order with Roses Unlimited, and unfortunately (?) they have all of them:

Sonia Rykiel
Frederic Mistral
Brown Velvet
Souvenir de la Malmaison
Rouge Royale
Francis Dubreuil

Then Annie L. McDowell (haven't found a source yet).

Thanks much,

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roseblush1(8a/Sunset 7)


I can't even begin to help. All of them are on my want list, but I don't have room for more roses.


    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 3:37PM
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Maryl zone 7a

I've got one on your list - Rouge Royale. Personally I love it even though our climates are different. My climate is horrible with heat/drought/cold/hail/wind - well you get the picture, and RR has managed to survive it all for years now. It is only a moderately tall rose (around 5 feet)and has an upright nicely shaped full bush shape. Fragrant as all get out. Repeats well. Pretty darned healthy too. I've said before it is one of the most perfect red roses out there - except- the darned blooms. They just don't last that long on the bush. Maybe 3 days before they start to turn black and deteriorate. However the blooms last much longer in the vase, so if you consider it as just a marvelously fragrant large cut flower you will be a happy camper - as I am......Maryl

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 3:59PM
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catsrose(VA 6)

Annie Laurie is available from Burlington Roses--in CA. Why order from RU ad pay the shipping when you have Vintage Gardens right there? They may not have all nine right now, but perhaps what they do have would narrow your list.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 4:08PM
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Neptune is a really great rose. Mine died after many years in a terrible location. The scent carries across the garden. I miss mine.

Souvenir de la Malmaison is even better than Neptune in my garden. It's one of my all time favorites. I have heard it may like my hot humid weather (amazingly) so I don't know how it would do for you.

That doesn't really help you narrow anything down does it?

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 4:23PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

'Sonia Rykiel' was a dreadful excuse for a rose in my Coastal SoCal garden. It's possible that she needed more heat, or didn't like our alkaline water -- but she WAS budded on Dr. Huey, and never got above 2 ft. in height.

She also mildewed, to a slight degree, but ALL the time.
And that was when we sprayed, so . . .

The blooms were breathtakingly beautiful, and perhaps their scarcity should have made me appreciate them more.

Instead, the combination of weak growth, mildew, and scanty bloom doomed her, here.


    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 4:37PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

"Francis Dubreuil" (actually, 'Barcelona,' a 1930's era Kordes HT) can be a weak grower, on its own roots. AND it can mildew.

I am told that, budded, it is a whole different kettle of fish, and since it is a HT, that makes sense.

'Souvenir de la Malmaison' mildews here, but is pretty clean in the Sacramento City Cemetery, and great in East Texas.


    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 4:40PM
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I should probably sit on my hands until I make a trip to the Sacramento Cemetary - I'm MAKING myself make the drive in April. I have a feeling I'll have an entirely new and way too large list after that visit!

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 4:45PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

If that will be your first experience of it, I assure you it will change the way you look at roses. It certainly did that for us.

It is a watermark experience.


    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 5:49PM
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strawchicago 5a IL(zone 5a)

Sonia Rykiel and Frederic Mistral are both water-hogs ... but not as bad as Austins. Sonia Rykiel and Frederic M. are GREAT as own-roots in my wet clay. Dr. Huey likes it dry and hot, it's never good to graft a water-hog on Dr. Huey, conflicting goals ... Dr. Huey can't deliver the water that water-hogs want. It's best for water-hogs to be own-roots, less diseases that way. My Golden Cel. a water-hog is an own-root, zero diseases. Same with Crimson Glory, zero-mildew as own-root. Crimson Glory needs water more than other HTs.

Hybrid teas do well grafted on Dr. Huey: they both flourish in a dry & hot environment.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 6:08PM
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nanadollZ7 SWIdaho(Zone 7 Boise SW Idaho)

I love Frederic Mistral. It's a vigorous rose, so mine is very wide and pretty tall. The rebloom is very good, and its perfume is exquisite. The blooms last well in a vase as does the scent. One sort of interesting thing about FM is that it is always the last rose to start blooming in my garden, but it's one of the last to quit blooming, too. The only downside to FM is it attracts thrips--but so do a lot of other light pink roses.
Maryl, you've sold me on Rouge Royale, which I had pretty much convinced myself I didn't really need. I consider any rose whose blooms hold up for three days in our dry heat pretty darn good. I have roses whose blooms last about an hour in this type of heat (extremely dry). Diane

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 6:22PM
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strawchicago 5a IL(zone 5a)

I had own-root Sonia Rykiel in a pot, within 1 month of purchase she gave 15 buds/blooms. Then I moved her to the ground, too close to tree roots. She became stingy. I saw a picture of another water-hog in a pot: Golden Celebration, so loaded that nothing in the ground can match.

Sonia Rykiel is worth growing if you have a big pot with moisture control potting soil, and move it morning sun when it gets too hot. Frederic Mistral can't be kept in a pot, he's too big and wild. I don't recommend a sandy soil plus perpetual warm climate for him. He blooms well when it's cool and tons of rain here. The more petals, the more water it needs.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 6:31PM
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seil zone 6b MI

Gee, Harmony, do you really think this is the right place to come to cut down a list, lol? You're more likely to be enabled into adding to it!

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 6:38PM
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strawchicago 5a IL(zone 5a)

Burlington has Cafe, Brown Velvet, Francis Dubreuil, Souv. de la Malmaison and Annie Laurie M. for $11 each, and cheap shipping to CA. I placed an order from Burlington to my sister in CA and it was only $5 shipping, versus a HUGE AMOUNT to ship from Roses Unlimited in NC to CA.

Kim Rupert said Neptune does well in CA. Roses Unlimited had Rouge Royal cheap for $8 early June sale. I researched and decided NOT TO buy as own-root (lots of people complained that it's stingy own-root). It's best grafted on Dr. Huey (Rouge Royal likes hot climate). I agree with Catrose that it's cheaper to buy Sonia Rykiel from Vintage. Both Sonia Rykiel and Frederic Mistral have scents which are more exquisite than Firefighter. The only drawback is they have more petals, and need more water.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 7:13PM
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Seil - really really good question.

Catsrose - I should call Vintage. When I looked at their website, it seemed they didn't have most of what I was looking for, but by phone they may be able to give me more info.

Maryl - I've heard mixed reviews on Rouge Royale. But I realized as I posted a question about Firefighter, and got the most beautiful photo of Francis Dubreuil, that I just don't need another rose that looks just like other red HTs that I have. FD is quite beautiful, and I re-looked up Rouge Royale. Now IT has a form like none of my other reds. I think I have to give it a try.

Amberroses - thanks for the input on Neptune and SDLM. I think both should do well here, and I don't think I could cut out either from the list.

Strawberry - good reality checks. I would be interested to know if anyone in dry heat and sand does successfully grow Sonia Rykiel or Frederic Mistral. So far I'm a 100% "in the ground" rose gardener. I don't know if I could keep a rose alive in a pot. If Sonia would need to be potted to thrive here, I think she's not a good fit for me. Sounds like FM might be out for me as well. See - this IS working!!!

My soil in the area where I do rose garden, is sand sand sand. No matter how much organic material I mix in, I dig in it 6 months later, and it feels like pure sand again. I don't want to grow things that won't be happy here. I'm just starting to tread out of the HT world - and HTs on Dr. Huey are in heaven here. I've added a bunch of Austins, and it will be interesting over the next few years to see how they do. Young Lycidas is clearly happy. It's too early to say on any others.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 7:21PM
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kstrong(10 So Cal)

From that list I grow these four:

Brown Velvet
Francis Dubreuil

I like them all for different reasons, except Cafe is pretty useless here, even though my plant is budded on Pink Clouds, which I was hoping would give it some vigor that it lacks as an own root. Not so much. Brown Velvet is my fav on that list, and it does just fine own root.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 8:22PM
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nanadollZ7 SWIdaho(Zone 7 Boise SW Idaho)

My Frederic Mistral is grafted on Dr.Huey, and I don't find it a particular water hog. I live in an extremely dry climate with hot summers, and have alkaline soil. Diane

    Bookmark   December 3, 2012 at 2:02AM
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hoovb zone 9 sunset 23

'Rouge Royale' -- gorgeous flower, horrific Rust. My 'Francis Dubreuil'/'Barcelona' is a vigorous 5 footer on his own roots, and would be much taller if I would allow it. Freddie Mistral was a monster, so was Sonia. Sonia was spring-blooming only here. Shame, for the flowers were glorious. SDLM is darling and doesn't take up much room.

That probably doesn't cut the list down much, does it.

    Bookmark   December 3, 2012 at 2:53PM
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Neptune? Yum!

    Bookmark   December 3, 2012 at 5:26PM
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TNY78(7a-East TN)

I have opinions on a couple of those, but as a couple of others have said, take it with a grain of salt because our climates are so different!

Brown Velvet-Mine was ownroot and never did a thing! Three years in, I tried to move it back into a container and it died almost immediatly.

Rouge Royal - I really like this one, and I actually have two. It has very full old fashioned blooms that last! Repeats well too. It does get some BS here, but that wouldn't be an issue for you. :)

Francis Dubreuil - I ADORE this plant! I haven't had it a long time, in fact, I just added it this past spring, but its color is AMAZING! Its the best deep red that I've been able to find, and it has also been healthy for me.

Happy shopping!

    Bookmark   December 3, 2012 at 5:35PM
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I'm familiar with two of them--one positive experience, one negative.
Francis Dubreuil (mine came from Chamblee's) struggled until I put him in a large pot under a retractable awning that is deployed in the dog days of summer to shield him from the worst of the afternoon sun. Now, he's a star--first to bloom in the early spring, still blooming now.
Rouge Royale, had great fragrance, but. . . . But it was a rust bucket. But it was stingy with its blooms. And the worst but of all, the blooms it did put out were prone to vegetative centers. Some believe this is linked to high summer heat, which may or may not be a factor for you in NoCal, but for me, it was three strikes and you're out. Rouge sleeps with the shovels.


    Bookmark   December 4, 2012 at 10:11AM
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ROUGE ROYALE (Hybrid Tea, 2000) is one of those roses that doesn't do very well in dry arid climates. I've also read dreadful reports in parts of coastal California where the climate is cooler in the summer but at the expense of a lot fog. There it gets rust and mildew. In the Central and Eastern States it does better, and really shines in the Deep South (provided of course you are willing to spray with fungicides to control black spot). As mentioned by previous posters the sumptuous blooms do not keep well on the bush. As a cut flower, however, she reins supreme. I've yet to see an Antique or Reproduction red rose with better flower form or stunning ruby red color. The petal texture is truly amazing: velvety on the top and satiny on the reverse. Lastly, the very strong fragrance is positively orgasmic. In spite of the fact this rose is borderline hardy in my area she remains my favorite red rose for cut flowers.

Given your location you might want to consider another red cultivar.

    Bookmark   January 22, 2013 at 1:40PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

In my hot and dry garden Souvenir de la Malmaison is an absolute star. Probably my best rose, blooms practically all the time, almost no disease, always has flowers and buds on it, and it's a lovely, full bush. On my spring order to Vintage I'm also adding Souvenir de St. Anne's after the recent post about it on the antique rose forum. It's said to be much lovelier than the pictures ever show, and I finally decided I had to try it. Good luck!


    Bookmark   January 22, 2013 at 3:05PM
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It makes me sad that I cannot find a better picture than this to show you my Sonia Rykiel. This is just one late season flower and yet it formed this lovely thing. This rose creates the prettiest colored and deliciously scented flowers. And they are in clusters. The plant grows large and wide but the roses come all along the canes if you dont force them to be upright. I let mine sprawl but tie the canes in the way to bamboo poles and a metal trellis was pushed in the back to provide support and keep the canes from blocking the walk.

This is one of my favorites along with DA's Kathryn Morely for color and shape. But where Kathryn holds her blooms up, Sonia lets hers hang sometimes because of the weight of the huge flowers in a cluster. Fine with me. I like looking up at them. If I had to do it again, I would give this rose a nice big trellis on a wall and keep tying it in like a climber.

It is thirsty. It wants the best of everything. There's a wait between repeats and extreme heat spoils the blossoms. This rose has a complex beautiful perfume. Jude the Obscure is like that for me. Different and wonderful. It stands out from the rest and I never met anyone who smelled it and didn't say it was one of the best roses they ever smelled. I grow a few stingy DAs for the scent/color/shape of the blooms. Sonia is more generous than any of them. She has been disease free for me. I love this rose. I had to move it a few times to find the right spot and then wait for her to settle in. I planted an Abe Darby across from her and they are looking about the same size and growth habit. I'm glad I took a chance on this rose.

SdlM is a classic. You have the climate for it and it is a workhorse. Plus it smells great and looks stunning. Lots of us who got SdlM are now growing the sports because we like it so much. Every year it gets better and better. The only thing I ever had issues with was a little mildew now and then. I think with more sun, I probably wouldn't have it.

    Bookmark   January 22, 2013 at 4:35PM
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My Sdlm reminds me of rose scented baby powder. Even in my zone 5 heavily winter protected garden where she never gets very big, she is a beauty.

    Bookmark   January 22, 2013 at 5:58PM
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It's fun coming back 1 1/2 months later and remembering my thoughts at that time. End result (so far) - I have purchased Neptune, SDLM, and Frederic Mistral. Plus about 17 more not on that list! I chickened out on Sonia due to so many comments about her probably not doing well in my climate, then I see Kitty's! I might have to rethink her.

    Bookmark   January 23, 2013 at 10:14AM
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I think you made good choices. I'm going to try Strawberry's suggestion and get both Sonia and Kathryn again for pots with water crystals and see what happens. I have an own root W. Shakespeare in a pot and he seems to be growing faster than my one on Huey who should be in an ideal position.

Sometimes I wonder- is it me, my climate, the rootstock, the soil, the pruning it had, the rose, the particular cutting I got, the position in my yard. As the years go on, I'm less likely to give up until I have worked through this series of questions.

    Bookmark   January 23, 2013 at 11:09AM
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