Help with tree ID

green_goNovember 23, 2013

I bought this tree online and it supposed to be a Korean Mountain ash.
It looks nothing like Korean Mountain ash to me and I am not sure what I've got? It is a very vigorous tree, in just one season it sent shoots almost 6 ft tall.
Please, check out the pictures below and help me to figure out what it is.

Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
smivies

It has the look of a Common Hazel.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2013 at 7:18AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
beng(z6 western MD)

Ahh....Paulownia-vine?

    Bookmark   November 24, 2013 at 9:08AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
brandon7 TN_zone(7)

I see no real resemblance to Sorbus alnifolia (Korean mountain-ash) or Corylus avellana (common hazel). It appears to me to be Paulownia.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2013 at 2:56PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
huggorm

Leafs looks like paulownia, but what about the buds?

    Bookmark   November 24, 2013 at 4:06PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
beng(z6 western MD)

Huggorm, I was kinda joking w/my guess. I agree -- the terminal bud doesn't look at all like paulownia, unless it's sprouting in the pic.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 9:18AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
salicaceae(z8b FL)

Without doubt this is a Tilia. Most likely T. x euchlora. Definitely not Paulownia.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 9:31AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
brandon7 TN_zone(7)

The bud that appears to be sprouting is not the terminal bud. And, I don't think we're getting a very good look at the terminal bud; we're seeing it from a rear angel. I'm not at all convinced that it's Paulownia, but I'm also not at all convinced that it's Tilia. In all but the last picture, many of the leaves appear to me to be opposite (and, if so, not Tilia). Of course, in the last picture, they appear very much to be alternate (not Paulownia).

T. x euchlora leaves that I've seen are MUCH smaller (around 3"-4") than those in the pictures. We don't have a lot to go by for scale in the picture, but, if, you use the trim in the last picture and guess that it's 3/4", that would make the leaf in the last picture over 10". Also, many of the leaves are clearly lobed.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 10:18AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
wisconsitom

The incision at the point of attachment of leaf/petiole seems too deep for Tilia. Also, for that genus, I'd expect the base of the leaves to be a little more asymmetric. Is that a reddish stem coloration? Hmmm?

+oM

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 11:42AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

OK - how daft a suggestion is Morus nigra?

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 1:16PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
brandon7 TN_zone(7)

green_go,

Help us out some here if you can. You posted pretty good pics, but some even better ones would really help us out.

If you happen to have taken one of the underside of one of the leaves, please post that. Take a look and see if the leaves were opposite (directly across from each other on the stem) or alternate (leaves on one side come off the stem in between where the leaves on the other side are). If you can, post a close up of the buds. Finally, can you give us an idea of how big the leaves were?

We can surely figure this out if you can give us some first-hand input.
______________

Where's Resin? We need a giant spotlight with a tree shadow in the middle (think Batman) to get his attention.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 7:15PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
calliope(6)

I don't really think it's paulownia either. In a specimen this age, were it paulownia there should be distinct white lenticels on the young bark. There isn't. Also I remember when mine were that small, the leaves were quite enormous. Actually the juvenile leaves are larger than those of a mature tree. The poster needs to hop back on and supply some information. Are the undersides of the leaves pubescent? Are the leaves opposite or alternating, can't tell by the picture. A mountain ash...........it isn't. I get nervous when I see nursery stock online unless I can attach the name of a legitimate, inspected nursery to it. There are regulations in every state I know of concerning moving nursery stock interstate as to being true to name.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 8:20PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
j0nd03

I can tell you exactly what it is.

An EYE SORE!!!

Every time I click on this topic I want to walk over there and pull it out of the ground LOL

Good luck with an ID =) I am rooting for ya!!

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 8:36PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
green_go

Thank you for trying, guys.
Unfortunately, no more pictures this year - it is all frozen here now, no leaves.
I donâÂÂt think undersides of the leaves were pubescent.
I donâÂÂt remember if the leaves were opposite or alternating, but I can go on the weekend and check the position of the buds if they are opposite or alternating.
And leaves were pretty big, but not huge - the largest maybe, the size of a hand (average womanâÂÂs hand, not manâÂÂs ). If I find dry leaves still in the yard, I will take more precise measurements on the weekend.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 10:54PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
brandon7 TN_zone(7)

"Unfortunately, no more pictures this year...no leaves."

I realize the leaves are no longer there, but, if you had your camera, I bet you could get a close-up of the bud area and include a decent size patch of bark.

"...but I can go on the weekend and check..."

Ah, was hoping it was just out in the back yard.

"And leaves were pretty big, but not huge..."

How wide is that piece of molding/trim?

This is interesting that we have pictures as good as the ones you made and are still having issues with a positive ID.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 11:32PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
davidrt28 (zone 7)

Wow...quite a mystery. I agree it doesn't look like the typical species of Paulownia which is a weed in the eastern US. Those are always bolt upright when young. But I wouldn't rule out it being another species. There are only 2 nurseries where the OP could have mail ordered a Sorbus alnifolia, one of them is Forestfarm and they offer 2 rare (for now!) Paulownia species.
Closest thing it resembles in my garden is actually Idesia, from the Salicaceae. Those are similarly whippy when young, as is the related Poliothyrsis, (I have both) However neither of them look exactly like this, and I can't find anything else hardy in the willow family that looks exactly like this. Leaf shape and stems just don't seem right for Linden but I wouldn't rule it out either.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.forestfarm.com/products.php?params=plantNameGenus:Paulownia

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 12:47AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
davidrt28 (zone 7)

"Where's Resin? We need a giant spotlight with a tree shadow in the middle (think Batman) to get his attention"

Thanks for the laugh!

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 12:48AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
wisconsitom

Might just be some artifact of the photo, but those stems almost look squarish to me!

Green, when you can, by all means provide us a pic of the terminal bud and surrounding area. We should then at the least be able to confirm or rule out Tilia.

This is kind of fun!

+oM

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 10:09AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
beng(z6 western MD)

I'm bamboozled. It isn't paulownia (that has opposite or 3-whorled leaves) -- tho a paulownia leaf-mimic. Maybe some kind of weed or perennial/annual?

This post was edited by beng on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 11:31

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 11:27AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
j0nd03

"Maybe some kind of weed or perennial/annual?"

I have been thinking along these lines since the topic first appeared! But why waste the energy on on those buds if not to flush out with them next year?

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 12:28

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 12:26PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

This thing has bark. It's woody, not a herbaceous perennial or annual.

Clearly the Morus nigra notion was too daft to contemplate.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 12:50PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
calliope(6)

Is this an ebay buy, or from a legitimate nursery? Email them the pics and ask them what in the hay they really sent you. If it's a legit nursery, they'll know. I've run nursery crews, and have run into help who were illiterate, and also those who don't pay attention, and watched them not even notice when they move from one variety to the next, and continue to stick labels into pots with their minds off in outer space, until they run out of whatever label they happened to have in their hands. Then please pass it on to us. I'm curious.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 2:37PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

Stem structure (including buds), stem orientation and leaf details not Paulownia. Arching, tapering stems and bulbous buds like Tilia, but don't know which Tilia would have quite that kite-like leaf shape, buds quite that big and protruding*

Could be some less familiar E Asian thing that isn't jumping out at us because it is less familiar. China in particular has a lot of genera and species that are not what many of us have seen repeatedly.

*But see at link below

Here is a link that might be useful: Bing PIctures of Tilia Buds

This post was edited by bboy on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 16:04

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 3:59PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
wisconsitom

I think it's a pole bean, fordachrisakes!

+oM

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 5:55PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
brandon7 TN_zone(7)

+oM, I'd give a dollar to see you say that on a video or something. ROFL.

When it's cold, rainy, and about to snow, what else are we to do except postulate on what this mysterious, woody, possibly oriental pole bean thingy is?

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 7:02PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
green_go

The tree is on my backyard, it is just difficult to find the opportunity to take pictures during the week: in the morning, I am usually in a hurry to get into my car and depart to work and when I come home from work, it is already dark outside. I will make more pics of bark and buds on Saturday. Found one more pic, but not much details either:

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 11:39PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
brandon7 TN_zone(7)

Well, that does help a little. Looks like the leaves are definitely alternate. It was a toss up, at least for me, with the other pictures. So, Paulownia is eliminated, for sure.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2013 at 11:57PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
mikebotann(8a SE of Seattle)

Just a wild guess here. Actinidia
Kiwi Vine?
Mike

    Bookmark   November 27, 2013 at 6:06AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
wisconsitom

See, we're edging towards a vine of some type. I know lots of trees show up with silly bamboo stakes, etc. but this thing needs that support, indefinitely I'd guess!

Uh...some kind of grape?

+oM

    Bookmark   November 27, 2013 at 9:14AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
huggorm

If we are talking vines, the genus "aristolochia" might be worth mentioning. But I still like beng's "paulownia-vine" most, LOL

    Bookmark   November 27, 2013 at 10:46AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
salicaceae(z8b FL)

I will put money on it being Tilia. When young and vigorous, the leaves can be bigger and of different shape than what you see on older trees. I grow both Idesia and Poliothyrsis and it isn't one of those. A close-up of the buds will confirm it is Tilia. Who wants to put money on this?? :)

    Bookmark   November 27, 2013 at 11:14AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

Possibly one like Tilia platyphyllos. The boldness of the leaf outlines (including heart-shaped bases of some leaves) could be due to juvenility; there are also variant cultivars grown, with abnormal leaf outlines - although I have no particular one in mind that I know to exist and would also fit this specific instance.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2013 at 1:03PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
wisconsitom

Green, you're in Z5. Next year's buds should be completely formed and visible. Next opportunity, let's see the terminal bud, and put this thing to rest!

+oM

    Bookmark   November 27, 2013 at 5:59PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
huggorm

What about sambucus, is there any elder cultivars with non-compound leafes?

    Bookmark   November 28, 2013 at 2:13PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
green_go

Here are some more pictures:






    Bookmark   November 30, 2013 at 1:34PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
salicaceae(z8b FL)

I'll stick to my original assertion that this is Tilia. It is a little unusual in that the leaves were a bit larger and slightly different shape for most, but fits for the genus overall.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2013 at 6:35PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
wisconsitom

Yep, I'd say that settles it.....to genus.

+oM

    Bookmark   November 30, 2013 at 6:49PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
huggorm

It sure look like tilia. I have never seen such vigourus growth from that genus though, but it might be normal for a hybrid

    Bookmark   December 1, 2013 at 4:32AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
calliope(6)

Well, if I planted a mountain ash and found out I got a tilia instead, I wouldn't be disappointed. They're nice trees.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2013 at 6:28AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
green_go

Thank you for narrowing it down. I went to the nursery catalog where I got the tree from and the only Tilia they are listing is 'Redmond' Linden. I wonder if this is what I haveâ¦.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2013 at 9:48AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
wisconsitom

More or less, it does look like "Redmond", a decent American linden cultivar. We plant lots of those as street trees.

I can't say for sure if this is the case here, but Am. linden generally produces lots of suckers at the base of both live trees and cut-down stumps. If the latter, that amount of growth is not at all unusual.

+oM

    Bookmark   December 1, 2013 at 6:44PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
j0nd03

Your pics show what commonly happens when the scion (Redmond in this case) dies and the rootstock sends up aggressive shoots to replace the lost top growth. Impossible to say with the pics, but if it is so, your remaining tree would not be Redmond but whatever rootstock they used (probably our native t. Americana). Show us an up close pic at the base of the tree :-)

    Bookmark   December 1, 2013 at 9:37PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
wisconsitom

...in which case, you may want to let just one stem grow and cut the other at ground level. This is a very sucker-prone species, so you will need to occasionally remove more, but it's not a difficult task. And FWIW, regular basswood, AKA American linden, is every bit as good a tree as the named cultivars, IMO. All linden have a tendency towards a conic overall growth form but in the cultivars, this has been exaggerated to what I consider an unnecessary degree. A matter of taste.

+oM

    Bookmark   December 2, 2013 at 11:09AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
rfonte649(9 La)

What type of tree is this. (pic)

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 1:37PM
Sign Up to comment
More Discussions
Trunk Rot. Should I shovel prune or can this little JM recover?
shovel prune or is this something it can recover from?...
kjmm1
Two trees start blooming in milder climate ...
I know the first is Hong Kong orchid. I forget the...
jujujojo_gw
500 ft Privacy Fence/Screen trees advise
I have a very large property line that I would like...
zrodimel
Japanese snowbell - anyone with experience growing in zone 5?
I'm looking for a tree for our front yard. Japanese...
mattow42
need help pruning trees
I have a Kentucky Coffee Tree (gymnocladus dioicus)...
Dave Varel
People viewed this after searching for:
© 2015 Houzz Inc. Houzz® The new way to design your home™