23,948 Garden Web Discussions | Vegetable Gardening
The raised bed on the left was put in in 2011 (I believe). The rest of the area (minus the new little plastic raised bed in the middle) was my front lawn, which I covered in cardboard and 5" of compost January 2014. May 2014, I cut 4" holes in the cardboard, removed the grass under where I'd cut,
planted corn in the holes, and recovered with the compost. The corn did great! Granted I only planted 12 plants, but an in-ground garden is possible over existing sod.
My property is bounded on 2 sides with horse farms, both of which have token plow horses and some antique agricultural equipment... so the idea isn't as far-fetched as some I've heard! However, the sod is far more likely to be covered with broad-spectrum pale ale than herbicide... not that I encourage anyone to drink and till... but a man's gotta stay hydrated, right? Thanks all for the input. It is, as always, much appreciated!
I'm betting Rob is looking for quotes/anecdotes. Rob, do some research, then come back and ask for stories based on what you find. I'm growing asparagus for the first time this year and it's a nail-biter, I'm tellin' ya.
I can't imagine having more than 1 zuk and 1 crookneck unless there is a VERY large family! One of each was fine for our family of 4, but now that we are only 2 we give away quite a lot! Nancy
<I only asked this because a soil expert and phd agronomist expert in irrigation just advised that this idea of building up a bed of organic matter was a bad Idea and would cause more problems than help especially with even water and the water available to plants after the large volume that this composed OM basically pure compost will be able to hold relative to a more even mix of mineral content and OM and to just till in the supplemental OM rather than build up layers. >
That is correct. Planting in a bed of pure compost can be problematic about water. You can always compensate for it with more water. How much of a problem it is often depends on how decomposed all that organic matter is. The more decomposed, the more humus in nature it is, the less the problem.
The difference with lasagna beds vs. straight organic matter is the inclusion of several layers of soil. That is required for an effective and productive lasagna bed to function well.
Dave
Thank you for the information I will work with incorporating probably a pre mix soil into the layers from a local soil company as well as possibly some of the local soil depending on how deep the homeowners want me to go and how I think that will affect the overall consistency looking a few years down the road when it is all composted in.
I topped my asparagus bed the last couple of years with leaves and got asparagus beetles. Most were still edible, but just didn't look right.
I was told to spread food grade salt on the bed to control weeds. I haven't tried it yet. But no leaves for me next year! Nancy
It isn't so much breaking the rules as it saves us from having to ask about all the other things that could be causing the problems and then waiting for the answers. All info up front is a big help. :)
It does sound from reading your other post, that you went over-board with the additives. Not sure why all that is needed, especially since you added all of them last year too. Minerals are retained in soil for a long time and you can easily create a toxic buildup of them by over-applying mineral based supplements. Unless you have had a professional soil test done that recommended all those additives. Is that case?
Based on the pics I would agree that you have some sun and wind damage from insufficient hardening off, especially in the last pick. But the issue in the first pic and the top leaf in the middle pic shows interveinal chlorosis and that is a nutrient issue. It can be caused by exposure to weather extremes and by excess water (yours or Mother Nature's) AND by a severe nutrient imbalance or a skewed pH in the soil.
Greensand can be lethal if over applied - did you use only per label directions? Did you till it in well before planting? Then you doubled up on all the Mg, Zinc, Copper, Moly and especially the Manganese with the Azomite and some of your leaves appear to me to be showing symptoms of manganese toxicity and the accompanying iron binding. Google images of 'manganese toxicity in plants' to see many pics to compare to your plants. And the link below gives you great info on toxicity symptoms in plants.
https://www.hydroponics.net/learn/deficiency_by_element.asp
This is further compounded by clay soil if you have that (and it looks like clay in the pics).
So if I'm right, what to do? First, get a professional soil test done. Contact your local county ag extension office for that. Ask for an organic matter % and especially a pH and follow their recommendations. Then assuming the local source of compost is providing quality product I'd side dress all the plants with several inches of it in the hopes of binding up as much of the elemental toxicity as possible and hope the plants make it. They may adapt and compensate to some degree. Then lay off all the additives. :) Assuming your soil has an active soil food web they aren't needed anyway and repeated applications are definitely not needed.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Dave
I've tried them a few times since that post, and have been very pleased every time. I am not saying that they are as good or better than a good, summertime vine ripened cantaloupe. But what had and has me so excited about them is that they are a great WINTERTIME melon!! To be clear, I know where they are grown and am not saying they are grown in cold (ie winter). But almost all the cantaloupes I get in the grocery store in winter time are just awful. I'm sure its because they have to be grown so far (south) away at that time of year, and the long journey necessitates them being picked very green and perhaps most wintertime melons are bred more for shipping stability than taste. All that may also be true for melorange,, but they are still very, very good melons in spite of all this. Best melons I've bought this time of year.
BTW...Thanks, daninthedirt, for the heads up on the seeds! I'm not at al surprised to hear they are hybrids, but at least now I know saving seeds is futile in all probability. Thanx
the cordless cultivator. no spend money on something else. best used after it is worked up for weed control. 30' x 5' garden a good hoe would be better investment. may want to consider spading that size garden with a spading fork. it doesn't have to be done all at 1 time. or consider a mantis type tiller. check e-bay for mantis tillers. $300 new.
My raised bed is 4x8 and I have found that 5 untrimmed indeterminates that are tied to a zig zagged line of pig wire are all I can handle. I put my sungold cherry in a 3x3' bed by it's self cause it gets so big. Nancy
I was told we can't grow tomatoes here because it gets too hot in summer. I have one Big Boy purchased at HD now growing in partial shade. I know jalapeno peppers do fine in partial shade, so giving tomatoes a whirl too. Nice to know sort of what to expect. There are only two of us, so we figured one plant would suffice. The jalepeno went in a month earlier than the tomato and is already producing. No flowers yet on the 1' tall tomato, but it's growing. Soon!
Manylittle, I request that you make use of paragraphing. I suspect not many will read through a long post of one paragraph.
Jonathan Passey of several posts back frames the case very well. I suggest everyone read his post carefully.
In short, to say that mulch rarely is a bad thing (harboring rodents is the main knock against it, or fire-ants in the South) is not equal to solving serious deficits. Notably, it does not solve major nutrient deficiency. We experienced gardeners are attempting to counter the hyperbole in this regard. Those who come along and claim that any critique of the BTE method can only come from those who have never used deep mulch is silly, because few if any experienced gardeners have not experimented with all sorts of mulches.
I have been vegetable gardening for 40 years, and recently retired from a 37 year career as an agricultural research and development manager. For most of this time I have used the European style of raised bed intensive gardens in my hobby, and thought that was ideal.
I tried the BTE method last year for the first time, since I had moved to a hilly property and was establishing new beds. The beds are laid out like terraces on the hillside, supported by wood walls, set into the slope with level tops. The slope is so steep it's more like climbing/sliding than walking around them, so I was hoping the low maintenance feature would be an advantage.
Bottom line, I have doubled the area using BTE this year, my first year results were amazingly successful. The only "problem" I had was that my usual plant spacing produced such dense results that I felt like I was going on safari to find most of the peppers I grew, frustrated because I never found them all. The tomatoes tended to topple when laden with fruit, but I had the same problem in raised soil beds as well. I will need rebar supports apparently, the heavy duty garden center cages I used are too wimpy.
I agree that agronomically speaking the BTE method makes little sense, and the results I saw makes me realize that our scientific methodology needs improvement. It strikes me that the really important aspect to understand in soil is the surface of the individual soil particles, and unfortunately when we test soils it is a homogenized mixture of a core sample that is analyzed. Unfortunately in this way, the complexity of the soil environment is lost.
We are only beginning to be able to systemically study the thousands of different micro-organisms in the soil, because they have been extremely difficult to quantify and identify. Now that we have genetic analysis methodology, more science will become available to document the functions and importance of the biology living in the soil.
Besides retaining moisture, which is a HUGE advantage for the plants and the soil fungal / microbial community that apparently provides a near ideal environment, I am convinced that there is nitrogen fixation happening deep in the BTE beds. The organic acids from the compost are dissolving soil nutrients at the bottom of the beds and the filaments of the mycorrhizae are transporting them upwards into the profile because the filaments are not broken up by any tilling.
Personally, I am a bit reluctant to try too hard to convince the conventional thinkers (of which I was one) to try Back to Eden Gardening, because once everyone realizes how good the method is, it won't be possible to talk the local landscapers into dumping their chips on my property for free.
Seriously, I am convinced this method will help the public realize the shortcomings of our conventional ag cropping system, which is unfortunately helping to turn North America into a desert. Have you ever visited farms in Europe, where they have several centuries of additional farming practice in their history? One word, dismal.
We need to wake up to the reality of our ties to a healthy earth if we want to continue to flourish. Meanwhile as Voltaire said, "We must tend our gardens," only now, that means mostly just watching them grow!
I a lot of people in the far north plant runner beans. I've also heard that they start their regular beans indoors. In a greenhouse is another option, although that wouldn't work for you.
Can you put the seeds in a very large pot of soil in the house and take them in and out for sunny weather for a month or so? Then just move them outdoors when it's warm enough? Beans hate colder weather. They also don't do well in extreme heat like AZ. I always had to really on yardlongs and cowpeas when I was in AZ.
Also, bush beans have shorter days to maturity. But, hard to get much from a couple of pots of bush beans.
in my case I, too, don't get much from runners, so I stick to regular pole. Warm the soil with black plastic, and consider putting up a small hoop house to protect the beans until it is warm enough. The yield of pole beans is largely determined by how long they can produce, and you are in Zone 2.
Unless your neighbor is growing any, but they are all pretty niche varieties of squash.
I grow butternuts every year, and we eat a lot. So my compost pile routinely features butternut seedlings, and I've transplanted some of them to my bed. That's exactly the situation you're in The fruit I get are pretty butternutty, though maybe shaped a bit different.