23,948 Garden Web Discussions | Vegetable Gardening

Just a thought, but did you dig down into the clay and back fill with good soil? Or dig a little and then build a raised bed? The problem with digging out a bed in clay is that you create a bathtub. It rains and fills the area with water that does not drain out. Evaporation may seem fast on the top of the soil, but water from a heavy rain sits in the basin for several days starving roots of oxygen. You may have rotting roots deep within your bed if proper drainage is not provided.

Usually on impermeable clay it is best to do a raised bed. I made this mistake my first bed on a new property and everything died a slow rotting death. I converted it to a raised bed above the "bathtub". I raised the bed 10" the following year, and increased another 10" year three. Go out right after a thunderstorm or long period of rain and check the moisture level. Step on the bed with some weight. It is spewing water like a sopping wet sponge? Is the bed completely filled with water and soil like quicksand? After a rain the bed should drain water through the soil. It stays moist but drains to allow oxygen to continue to penetrate the soil. I bring this up because you said "nothing but clay which I removed down about 18 inches".

Betsy - how old where the crowns you planted and how deep in that trench did you plant them? Was compost the only possible source of nutrients you added to the soil before planting? It is a good soil amendment but it only provides nutrients to the plant if there is an active soil microherd to provide them. That doesn't exist in a new bed.

Yeah it is ok to fertilize them now but compost isn't going to cut it. Use it to top dress the bed and bury the crowns deeper but you need an actual fertilizer of some type, preferably one of the many liquids so it will be fast acting and readily absorbed. Organic or synthetic is your choice but I agree with barrie that it needs to be high in P (the middle number).

And as linux said, you may very well have created a pond below the bed and will have a chronic drainage problem.

For best longterm results I'd dig up the crowns, redo the bed correctly to fix the lack of nutrients and the drainage problems, and then replant them. No harvest after than for a couple of years.

Dave

Everybody's right, and I think it has to do with how long the warmth lasts. When I was in Zone 7 things kept growing through Sept, but farther north growth stops except for greens around mid month. If the big brassicas don't get plenty of heat in Aug and Sept, they just don't do well.

In this forum there was a discussion on B sprouts varieties, with the bottom line being this is a situation where only the strongest hybrids will do. Check.

I plant in May here but I'm in zone 5A and have had frost the beginning of September. A good early cabbage that I like is Early Winnigstadt Cabbage. It's an Heirloom variety.

Did you direct seed? Try starting in those cup sized six pack planters in case something is eating them before they surface... Then put them in the ground when the leaves are about an inch.. This way if your other ones sprout, you can put the new ones in another spot...

Nancyjane, you've read my mind. I am the type of person who transplants the second (or third) "weaker" seedling in order to give it away because I can't bear to kill anything I've grown. I was hoping for a Murphy's Law kind of outcome because I really want the cowpeas. Happily, I can give away the extra squash seedlings to my sister, if, hopefully, there are any.

Mav72: I did direct seed again since the weather will be in the 80s here in NYS, I replanted the cowpeas in the same spot and could not find any of the seeds I originally planted. I will start some plants in a 6-pack too as I can never have too many cowpeas. Thanks much.

Not sure how big your pots are, but pots don't necessarily offer a lot of root volume to plants, so small fruit and leaves may be just what you should expect. I think it depends a lot on how big your pots are, and what amendments you're supplying. 60s, 70s, 80s? Geez, that's zucchini heaven.

As to squash that rot right on the plant, are we perhaps talking about unfertilized female flowers? As to overwatering, it's easy to avoid with squash. Just DON'T WATER until you see some leaves just begin to droop. Then water. They're telling you they need it.

I have a zucchini in a pot as well, this is my first time planting zucchini. I also have a few in a raised bed. The soil I used was leftover soil from a tomato plant last year, I didn't add any fertilizer. The difference between my potted zucchini which has BIG leaves and have 2 fruits now (just started) and my raised bed zucchini with tiny leaves no fruits is 1) the pot doesn't get constant rain like the raised bed, I only water it when the leaves droop, like the PP said 2) the pot gets less wind since it's on the patio compared to my raised bed; 3) less sun at where the pot is compared to full sun in the raised bed. But I think they like full sun. I think it may be the rain and the wind or maybe the soil too.

Sorry, I had a typo in my original post. I meant the stem goes up 6" - 8" , not 6'8". Basically, if I cut this part off, I would be losing 75% of the total plant.

Your plant will most likely recover just fine, putting out new growth where the old one was removed. Keep an eye out for the borers, but that looks like it might have been pinched either in transit, handling or when it was tied.

Just a tip: It's best to place stakes/trellises at the time of planting in order to avoid possibly damaging the roots. (That being said, I sometimes don't get around to staking until the plant is partially grown and yet I haven't seen any noticeable harm in 30+ years of gardening ... but still keeping fingers crossed.)

There are many possible problems. My first guess from your description of circumstances is salt damage. Salt builds up in soil from fertilizer and other sources, even the water you may use to irrigàte, and cucurbits are more sensitive than most other crops. If you continue to have poor growth after replanting you may need to switch areas or leach out the existing bed.

Barrie, that makes sense. I have added a lot of aged chicken manure to the soil, and it's the wettest and darkest place in the garden. Struck me as odd though, since I have some tiny pepper seedlings planted right next to them and they are thriving. I would've thought them to be more sensitive.

Sorry but it isn't just semantics and it is often very confusing to gardeners if the terms are used interchangeably. Many discussions here to support that claim of confusion.

So the vital differences between hay and straw in the world of mulching, soil improvement, and composting need to be understood and the labels used correctly whenever possible to avoid contributing to that confusion.

Straw is a waste/byproduct. It is the dry, hollow stemmed,residue of grain crops (wheat, oats, barley, etc.) that is mowed and baled after the grain is harvested and so contains only minimal seed. It does not regrow after mowing and has no forage value. It has a high insulating factor even when used in shallow layers, is very slow to decompose, and is moderately water repellent. It is an almost pure carbon and has little to no nitrogen content.

Hay is not a byproduct. It is an almost pure green, high nitrogen/low carbon, flat stemmed, mowed and baled grass (rye, orchard, alfalfa, buffalo, etc.) that is grown expressly for animal forage. It always regrows after mowing and its seed content can be quite high depending on when in the life cycle it is mowed. It has little insulating value even when used in thick layers, decomposes rapidly, and can harm plants if in direct contact as it decomposes, and has little to no water repelling characteristics (it mats).

While both may work, when used properly, to suppress weeds in the garden their moisture retention, decomposition, insulation from heat, and soil improvement characteristics are very different.

Hope this clarifies for future readers.

Dave

Dave I wasn't trying to use the terms interchangeably. I was referring to straw, no hay. Can you clarify what you mean by straw not having "forage value". Straw still has protein and fiber and it's actually recommended to also feed to animals that deal with cold winters. The animals fair much better than those fed hay alone. So I'm not sure what you mean by forage value. Do you mean less nutrients?

I've never, ever had a bale of straw that didn't have grain in it by the way. Perhaps it's because I'm not buying specifically for garden? Even before I farmed, I remember getting straw bales for fall décor and in the spring time I'd have wheat growing. Completely different area that I lived in as well so I don't think it's just where I am now that does this.

I'd definitely add more potting mix to them so that the plants at least have the full 5" of depth to work with. Most roots, even shallow rooted plant, need at least that much. I'm assuming these have the drain holes in the bottom? Some models do and some don't. If not you'll have to make them.

Dave

Oh, I thought you were going to use them for sprouting transplants, which would involve carrying them around. But if these are just to be used as planter pots for growing, I guess the rigidity is less of an issue because they can stay in one place. But they are kind of small. Not sure where you are, but thin black plastic in small pots can be asking for trouble in high sun and heat.

It can be done.

Tip: pick the right year when there's no heat wave.

Summertime is a great head lettuce variety. I grow it treated just like you would cabbage or broccoli if you have grown those. Pinetree Seeds in Maine carry this variety. I grow it as a spring and fall crop in my zone 7 (NC).

Surround, the kaolin clay applied as a spray has solved the problem for me. I spray the bottom portion of the vines every week or so until the borer season is over.

I hate those buggers. I am trying some butternut this year uncovered, but all my summer squash stays covered from here on out.

I use a large shears- looks like a scissors on streriods. They are available at Walmart and various garden centers. The shears gives more accuracy in making a cut among the long leaves. I've used a knife, a corn chopper, and even a machete. The shears are my weapon of choice for just about every crop I need to cut, from bunched herbs, lettuce, onion (tops & roots), flowers and all those Cole crops.

Thanks for the input, everyone!