ZM,

Your two red-orange flowers are good-looking. In the one posted last at 17:18, are the petals yellow on the reverse side? It looks like they may be. If so, that would be a very nice trait to continue, if possible. By the way, is Z. pauciflora the same species as peruviana, or is it different in some way?

You are really moving along with shortening your generation time, as seen in the green seeds! One day, I may try the same, but this year, I am concentrating on enlarging my beds and just studying the offspring resulting from last year's crosses. Probably in mid-April or so, I will start some of the seeds I am very anxious to get going under lights in the house. Some of the crosses resulted in so few seeds, I want to be extremely careful to optimize my chances of getting offspring. And, I am worried a little that open pollination may have occurred despite the nets, and maybe I will be looking at crosses that were unintended...we will see!

I have been moving dead vegetation from my perennial garden beds and then also sowing a row of poppies next to where my annual orange cosmos will no doubt reseed themselves. In the next few days, will plant a small bed of romaine lettuce and a row of peas. Will put some short sweet pea (flower) seeds in our whiskey barrel on the patio.

For awhile my interest was in amplifying seeds and the growing out of heirloom (dry) pole beans. I have about 50 different varieties and will plant maybe ten kinds this year from my aging seed inventory. I also have a small collection of heirloom tomato seeds I will grow out-maybe a total of ten plants (that may be an inflated number--I easily fall behind the necessary staking and pruning of tomato plants!) Cabin fever is setting in, and I can't wait to get started with gardening! Your victory garden sounds good -- ratatouille in the making!

JG

Just the memory of 'July Bonnet' makes me smile. I'm with Z'man when he says that one has great potential. I really wish all of you luck with your gardens.

I got my seed from Fedco today and they included a letter telling that their recent sales have been phenomenal. They attribute it to the economy and more people wanting to grow their own. They foresee many popular varieties selling out.
We once discussed zinnia varieties with a fragrance. I'm hoping not to have to search for edible ones.

I had wondered if any of you dabble in other species. This year I'm growing early greens and peas with the intention of using that same space later for zinnias.
Other than zinnias, my best '08 luck was with tiny tomatoes. All of my plants came from one tiny guitar-shaped fruit that I rescued from a salad bar. Not one plant gave me anything other than oval pinkie nail sized fruit borne in clusters. It is the perfect snack while working in the garden.

JG,

"In the one posted last at 17:18, are the petals yellow on the reverse side? It looks like they may be."

In the picture, it looks like the reverse sides are pretty good, but that picture was made a couple of weeks ago and those particular petals are now maturing some green seeds and they now have a regular green-veined appearance on their reverse sides. However, that plant now has two side-branch blooms opening, and their petal reverse sides are unusually non-green-veined, with a neutral ivory color and, when the light is right, some yellow shows through from the front side. That isn't typical of zinnia petal backsides. Apparently there is some difference in the appearance of petal backsides, but so far the good looks apply only to juvenile petals and don't persist as the petals mature. In the past I have had juvenile petals that were pretty close to pure white but, as they aged, a green vein structure developed.

"By the way, is Z. pauciflora the same species as peruviana, or is it different in some way?"

Good question. I hope that pauciflora and peruviana are different, but at this moment I am not sure. I hope that pauciflora is tenuifolia. I purchased both Z. peruviana and Z. pauciflora from Jefferson Monticello and planted them a couple of days ago and now several are emerging, so they are quick to germinate. The seeds looked quite similar, about halfway between a "regular" zinnia and a marigold, being rather long and skinny. I was wondering if Z. pauciflora was the same as Z. tenuifolia but right now I am unsure. Apparently Jefferson Monticello thinks their pauciflora and peruviana are different, because they came in separate labeled seed packets (which, incidentally, were shipped separately). Your photos, back on Sun, Jan 11, 09 at 15:36 in Part 8, demonstrate clearly that tenuifolia and peruviana are different. Right now I am hoping that pauciflora is the same as tenuifolia, because I would like to think that I have two different species of seedlings just emerged. This is still a learning experience for me.

"Probably in mid-April or so, I will start some of the seeds I am very anxious to get going under lights in the house. Some of the crosses resulted in so few seeds, I want to be extremely careful to optimize my chances of getting offspring."

Even during mild weather, I also start my critical seeds inside, where I think they have a better chance of getting started. It is really annoying to have a potentially interesting hand-pollinated hybrid seedling cut down by a cutworm or some other outdoor hazard. Once again, here in Kansas, I plan to make some zinnia cages (half-height tomato cages) from concrete re-mesh wire, to help protect some of my breeder zinnias from high winds and accidental damage from running dogs and squirrels.

ZM

Hi all,

Sometimes, when you cross scabiosa flowered zinnias with large flowered zinnias, you get unusual petals instead of the scabiosa-type florets:

{{gwi:1835}}

I am not wild about this effect, but I save seeds from them in case they produce something better or more interesting.

ZM

Help! I am trying for the first time to grow zinnias. I have started them indoors, in seed starting media. Several of the seedlings' stems are shriveling up and falling over, like damping off. I am growing peppers, tomatoes, eggplant, daisies, and basil in the same tray, and there have been no problems except with the zinnias. Is there something I am doing wrong? Is the seed contaminated? ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!!

asaylor,

The mere fact that you are growing peppers, tomatoes, eggplant, daisies, and basil in the same tray with no problems indicates that you must be doing something right. It does sound like your zinnias are suffering from damping off, although it is curious that only they would be affected. It has been several years since I lost a zinnia seedling to damping off, or any other seedling for that matter. I think that peppers, tomatoes, and eggplants are susceptible to damping off. I don't know about the daisies and basil. You asked if your zinnia seed might be contaminated. I suppose that is a possibility. Are your zinnia seeds commercial, or did you save them yourself?

This picture of my seedlings was taken a few minutes ago.

{{gwi:1836}}

I plant a single seed in each 2½-inch square pot. I will be repotting several of those into larger pots tomorrow. I have some zinnia hybrids in there from crosses that I pollinated in January of this year, along with some commercial peppers, eggplants, and tomatoes. I have a few of the new Burpee seedless tomatoes that I am trying this year.

ZM

Thank you, ZM, for the reply. Your zinnias look great!
The seeds I planted were commercial seeds, for Envy and Fruit Smoothie Mix. Both are Ferry-Morse. I sowed 4 seeds per pot, with the idea that I would then transplant them. Both of the zinnia types are affected, with Envy suffering the most losses.
I started the seeds in the Burpee Ultimate Growing System, it has really worked well for tomatoes. The system is self-watering, could they be getting too much water?? I usually only grow tomatoes (I have over 1000 varieties), and am pretty much clueless about anything else! I love zinnias, and really wanted to grow my own, I just hope some survive!

asaylor,

I have never used the Burpee Ultimate Growing System, but it should be good, and actually better than what I am using. I have to remember to water every few days and, if I forget, the seedlings suffer. The Burpee self watering system uses a wicking mat which should be self limiting and just keep the bottoms of the pots moist.

But, are your seedlings still under the humidity dome? That could be the problem. I usually take them out from under the humidity dome as soon as they emerge. If the seedlings are too short, sometimes I leave them under the dome a day or two to let them stretch a little before removing them. When you re-pot a seedling with a longer stem, you can submerge it in potting medium.

Otherwise, unless there is something terribly wrong with the lighting or the growing medium or the water you are using, your setup should work just fine. Did the Burpee system come with its own seed starting medium? What lighting are you using? What are you using for water? I am using town tap water, which is both chlorinated and fluoridated.

I can't do anything about the fluoridation, but I filter the tap water through a PUR filter to remove the chlorine (and possibly some other bad things). The PUR filter deliberately passes the fluorides for dental health. When we lived in Maine, I used melted snow for my plants, and that worked really well. Later I used some rain water from the gutter, but the roof usually had enough stuff on it so that the rain water wasn't that pure, so I switched to our well water, which wasn't too bad.

The Burpee system should work really well for zinnias and for most things after we find out what went wrong.

ZM

Hi, ZM!
They have been out of the humidity dome for a week now. I removed the dome from them a day after they sprouted. But, I didn't put them under lights right away, because I was waiting for the peppers and eggplants to sprout first. But, after a couple of days the zinnia seedlings were starting to bolt, so I put them under the lights.
I use a shop light fitted with a cool and a warm flourescent bulb. I am using tap water, maybe I should filter it? The Burpee system came with soil-less seed pellets, which you re-inflate with warm water.
The thing is, I thought zinnias were supposed to be easy to grow! If my tomatoes, peppers, basil, etc. are doing fine, you would think that the zinnias would be good too. Oh, I also have a heating mat under the growing system, mainly because peppers and eggplants need it. Could that be a problem??

Thanks again for your expertise, I really appreciate you taking your time to help me figure this out!

BTW, I haven't lost any more seedlings today. The Envy were definitely harder hit than the Fruit Smoothie mix.

Andrea

Hi Andrea,

"I removed the dome from them a day after they sprouted. But, I didn't put them under lights right away, because I was waiting for the peppers and eggplants to sprout first."

I think that you should have put them under lights the day you planted them. I start all of my seeds under a humidity dome with the lights on, for 16 hours a day. I would make an exception for seeds that specifically require darkness for germination, but as far as I know peppers and eggplants germinate just fine in the light.

"But, after a couple of days the zinnia seedlings were starting to bolt, so I put them under the lights."

Starting to bolt was not good for them. That may have had something to do with the conditions that were conducive to damping off. In order to make it hard on the organisms responsible for damping off, lower the fluorescent tubes to within 2 or 3 inches from the seedlings and direct a breeze from a small electric fan on them. The air circulation will dry the surface of the growing medium and "exercise" the seedlings, giving them thicker stems. Be sure they get plenty of water from below, because the breeze does have a drying effect.

"I use a shop light fitted with a cool and a warm fluorescent bulb."

Seedlings prefer the cool light. A couple of 6500°K cool white fluorescent bulbs would be more to their liking. The warm part of the spectrum isn't needed until the flowering/fruiting stage. I have raised zinnias from seed to seed under just 6500°K bulbs, which are a very cool white. If you give a seedling a choice between a cool white and a warm white, it will lean distinctly toward the cool white.

"I am using tap water, maybe I should filter it?"

You should if it is chlorinated. Chlorine isn't good for plants. They can use a trace of chloride ions, but that is a different thing, and chloride deficiency is very rare because a trace of it exists nearly everywhere.

"The thing is, I thought zinnias were supposed to be easy to grow!"

They are easy to grow. Once you make a few adjustments to your cultural practices, zinnias will be very easy for you.

"Oh, I also have a heating mat under the growing system, mainly because peppers and eggplants need it. Could that be a problem??"

Probably not. I use a heating mat to help speed up germination in a cool room, such as in the area of our basement. But you don't need a heating mat in most interior rooms when the fluorescent lights are fairly close to the humidity dome. Heat tends to build up under an enclosed dome.

"I usually only grow tomatoes (I have over 1000 varieties), and am pretty much clueless about anything else!"

Over 1000 varieties! You must have them all. I knew there were a lot of varieties of tomatoes, counting all of the heirlooms whose seeds are saved and traded by tomato enthusiasts. But I wouldn't have guessed 1000.

However, zinnia culture isn't that different from tomato culture. You can grow tomatoes from cuttings and you can grow zinnias from cuttings. You can grow tomatoes in cages and I grow my prized "breeders" in modified tomato cages, as you can see in this picture.

{{gwi:1837}}

I refer to those as zinnia cages. (That zinnia also enjoyed the benefits of a "Water Spike" attached to a 2-liter soft drink bottle.) I make the zinnia cages from concrete reinforcement wire (remesh), using the same techniques that I use for my tomato cages. The zinnia cages are half the height of my tomato cages and smaller in diameter. The zinnia cage in that picture was made by cutting a surplus 5-foot tomato cage in two to make two zinnia cages. Those cages help protect my special breeder zinnias from inadvertent damage from high winds and running animals such as dogs, cats, and squirrels.

ZM

Hi all,

Occasionally a zinnia that first impresses me as a reject kind of grows on me and I relent and designate it as a breeder, such as this one:

{{gwi:1838}}

Normally I want the petals to be well separated to allow a lot of "air" into the bloom, but this specimen has a fairly large almost ball-like shape, with a lot of substance. It now has three blooms on the plant, two of which are faded and senescent. I think I will start pollinating its current bloom to see what comes from this zinnia.

ZM

ZM,

Your flowers are gorgeous as always! The form (not color)
of that last one reminds me of that which I saw on a number of Peppermint Stick-like zinnias I got from Rich Farms.

I had mentioned earlier that I would try and find something about the origin and development of the scabious form of zinnias. I questioned several sources, and from Andrew Tokely, the Horticultural Manager of Thompson and Morgan, I found that "The Scabious Flowered Zinnia was achieved by Selective breeding over a number of Years.
Excellent forms of this have been bred over the years mainly in Holland , Poland and the Chec [Czech] Republic."

On (outdoor) zinnia pollination, Dr. Stimart writes, "It is my understanding they can be wind pollinated to some extent, but the major is by various insects. I would bag the heads so as to exclude pollen completely."

Thanks so much to the above sources for their help on questions we might share...

Well, indoor planting time is coming soon! Outdoors, my peas, poppies, and lettuce are just beginning to emerge.

JG

JG,

I questioned several sources, and from Andrew Tokely, the Horticultural Manager of Thompson and Morgan, I found that "The Scabious Flowered Zinnia was achieved by Selective breeding over a number of Years. Excellent forms of this have been bred over the years mainly in Holland, Poland, and the Chec [Czech] Republic."

Many thanks for digging up that information. Your scholarship is much appreciated. I still wonder if one or more mutations didn't play a part in the origin of the scabiosa flowered zinnias, but Boyle and Stimart didn't seem to go into that, except to note that their florets were different.

One of my Aztec Sunsets exhibits an unusually compact plant habit. This picture is approximately 130% life size on my screen.

{{gwi:1839}}

When the plant first showed unusually short growth, I surmized that I had accidentally over-dosed it with plant growth regulator and resolved not to give it any more PGR and I didn't. However, the plant never "came out of it" and it has a plant habit comparable to the Thumbelinas and Zinnitas. Needless to say, I am using it as a female for cross pollination with my larger breeders in an attempt to get interspecific hybrids involving it.

ZM

I'm trying to figure out what color the blooms are on the 4/2/09 photo. The leaves look normal, but the blooms look green and pink. Those aren't colors I associate with 'Aztecs'.

HC,

That particular Aztec Sunset has lemon yellow tips on medium purple petals. I don't know what the picture looks like on your screen, but the colors are fairly accurate on my screen. The lemon yellow may appear a touch greenish because this picture was taken within a foot or so of a bunch of green zinnia foliage. The principle of radiosity says that every illuminated object becomes a secondary light source. But I didn't notice a greenish caste to the light on this picture. It was a mix of cool white fluorescent light from the plant stand and incandescent room light.

But, regardless of the appearances in the picture, that plant's colors are not unusual in Aztec Sunsets or Persian Carpets. Those colors would be somewhat unique in a large zinnia bloom. I do find it a bit odd that I got a possibly rare plant habit mutation out of only about half a dozen Aztec Sunset plants. Maybe the plant growth regulator is responsible. I hope I get some viable seeds from that plant.

ZM

ZM,

With respect to the development of scabious zinnias, I am sure that mutation(s) did play a role, and an interested breeder took notice, then cross-bred those mutated plants until he got pure-breeding plants with that phenotype-- just as you would like to do with the threesies plants.

That Aztec Sunset is really nice with the compact habit and all the flowers! What a nice plant for containers that would be! My plants were crowded into a small place, and although they did produce a lot of flowers, I really didn't observe that kind of habit. I truly hope all of us can get those intraspecific hybrids! That could lead to some very interesting plants.

JG

Whoops! INTERspecific hybrids, that is...

JG

HC,

Maybe you are right about those colors. Upon looking at that picture on my monitor in reduced room light tonight, I notice that the picture does have a bluish caste, which interacts with the lemon yellow tips to give them a slightly yellow-green look. And I noticed a few hours ago that the plant in the plant stand also has a slightly yellow-green look to its lemon yellow petals. Some of that blue color may have crept in during the post processing stage of the picture. However, all of my fluorescent bulbs are rated at 6500°K, which is a bit on the bluish side. As far as I know, the digital camera I am using (Kodak Z712 IS) does not have a white balance adjustment, but I will re-check its user manual.

ZM

JG,

I think we are in total agreement about the origin(s) of the scabiosa flowered zinnias. It may be before your time, but there was a large crested zinnia strain named Howard's Crested Zinnias that went extinct a few decades ago. Like Parks' Pastel Scabious strain, it didn't maintain its purity in field-grown conditions.

"That Aztec Sunset is really nice with the compact habit and all the flowers! What a nice plant for containers that would be!"

It would be nice for containers. Its compact plant habit may be unusual for Aztec Sunsets (and Persian Carpets), but there are several zinnia strains that have a comparable plant habit, including Zinnitas and Thumbelinas.

My two-tone echinacea flowered specimen continues to develop and produce seeds. Its code name is C6.

{{gwi:1841}}

That plant is proving to be rather floriferous and it has been a source of quite a few mature green seeds. Its central bloom matured completely with a dead stem and brown flower parts and I harvested it yesterday. It had already produced a good crop of petal seeds and the central seedhead yielded a number of floret seeds as well. I really like this specimen as a potential source of even better echinacea flowered specimens, but past experience warns me that 90 to 95 percent of its progeny will be single rejects. I guess those odds are no worse than playing a slot machine.

ZM

HC,

Incidentally, with respect to that blue color cast: It hasn't gone away entirely, because the wall behind those zinnias above is a warm white, rather than a cool white. At this moment, I am not certain how to deal with the color cast. But, thanks to you, I am now aware of the problem.

ZM

I've not had a chance to look at the 'Aztec' on another monitor. The photo reminded me of color photos found in books from the 1950's. I thought it was a technique you were using. What was your source for 'Aztec sunset' seed?
I've shown the April 5th photo to a couple of folks and they are awed by it. Each has pointed out the "pinkiness" toward the inside of the petals. I believe you have a hit.

"The principle of radiousity says that every illuminated object becomes a secondary light source."
That's why we should surround ourselves with exceptional people.

HC,

"What was your source for 'Aztec Sunset' seed?"

I got mine from Parks, although several other seed companies offer the strain.

ZM

ZM,

C6 definitely has colors I've not seen in scabious-related zinnias. I think you said earlier it had some whirligig genes in it. It's pretty!

The plant itself looks extremely healthy. It seems you definitely have indoor zinnia culture perfected (or at least, close to---!)

(Have you gotten a new camera?)

JG

I had wanted to order 'Aztec Sunset' from Parks, but they discontinued it this year. The other source I'm aware of wants more for shipping than the cost of the seed. Therefore, I'm growing 'Persian Carpets' from three sources, and hoping for the best.

HC,

I wasn't aware that my Parks Aztec Sunsets had been discontinued. Parks has discontinued several zinnias, including an extra tall strain, that could grow 5 feet tall and up. Oh well.

I checked on alternate sources and found that Territorial Seeds offers Aztec Sunset. The surprise for me there was in the description, where they said, "At 6-10 inches, the compact, ultra-floriferous plants are fantastic in beds and containers. Rightfully awarded a 2007 Fleuroselect gold medal." If that is correct, then my "mutant" which I pictured above, was the only on-type plant in the group of Aztec Sunsets from Parks that I just grew. The plant habit for Persian Carpets is described as 24 to 28 inches high, which is completely different from the 6 to 10 inch height of Aztec Sunset. Until only a few minutes ago, I had no idea that Persian Carpets and Aztec Sunsets had completely different plant habits.

Thompson & Morgan originated Aztec Sunset, so they should be a reliable source. They list its plant height as 10 inches, which is consistent with the Territorial description. Their online price of 200 seeds for $2.95 seems reasonable enough, although I don't know what the shipping cost would be for that. I can see how that the shipping cost could easily exceed $2.95 because some companies have a minimum shipping & handling cost. However, some garden centers have Thompson & Morgan seed racks, so you might be able to buy a packet of Aztec Sunsets locally. Or you may prefer your 28-inch Persian Carpets to the 10-inch Aztec Sunsets and just skip the Aztec Sunsets. My next planting of zinnias of this type will be Persian Carpets.

The near black purple with white tips of some Persian Carpets would look spectacular in a large cactus flowered or spider flowered zinnia. And Persian Carpets have a well branched plant habit, with the possibility of an improved plant form in the hybrids.

ZM

JG,

I am still using the same Kodak Z712 IS camera, usually in its "Flower" mode. The lighting was high key in some of the recent photos, instead of the low-key chiaroscuro lighting that I have a quirky preference for. I still intend to get my very own digital SLR camera, but not until I see what the next releases from Nikon will be.

I have made a lot of progress in my indoor zinnia growing techniques, and my present indoor project gives me a lot of pleasure and satisfaction. But I think there is still room for improvement. I need a finer touch in my use of plant growth regulators and I am considering the use of HID lighting for some of my larger plants this coming Winter.

I am also concerned that the use of municipal tap water, even after filtering the chlorine out of it, can cause a build up of salts in my growing medium. They say you shouldn't top-water zinnias, but bottom watering seems to give a build-up of salts, while top watering can tend to flush out some of the excess salts.

I am going to look into the costs of filtering everything out of the municipal water. If I were just growing a few African Violets, I would use one-gallon jugs of distilled water from the grocery store, but that isn't practical for my zinnia project. At least, when I transition to outdoor gardening, rains will be helpful.

ZM

ZM,

I wonder if you get enough rain out there to consider getting one or more rain barrels, and then saving the rain? With used milk jugs, you may be able to bottle lots of rain water for indoor use! Just a thought......

I asked about your camera, because it did look like you had several types of photos in the past weeks.

Can't wait to start gardening with zinnias...the time is coming soon!

JG

JG,

After I ran out of snow to make snow water in Maine, I gathered some rain water in big buckets under the rain gutter. I had to filter out a lot of stuff that was in it from the roof, the bulkiest part being scales from tree buds, oak pollen parts, and other Spring treefall. What didn't filter out (I was using a fish tank dip net for my "filter") was whatever bird poop and squirrel poop had been deposited on the roof before the rain. I soon became squeamish about using roof water and switched to well water, which had its own problems.

The roof here doesn't look too contaminated, so I may catch some roof water to see what it looks like. I could use it outside, but I doubt that I will want to bring it into the house. My outdoor zinnias will have to get by with city water and rain. My indoor zinnias will continue to drink filtered tap water. (I drink "green top" no-sodium drinking water that comes from Walmart in gallon jugs.)

It isn't nearly as rainy here as it was in Maine. Maine was virtually a cool rainforest. I usually didn't have to use the garden hose more than once or twice a season there.

"Can't wait to start gardening with zinnias...the time is coming soon!"

It will be at least a month before I take the gamble here. It's not just a matter of not having a killing frost, but of having reasonably un-cold ground temperatures. Today was sunny and 65 with a lot of people out in their yards doing "Spring" things. I did some tree pruning. But tomorrow's high is 15 degrees cooler, cloudy and rainy. A garden indoors day for me. I think it is going to be a couple of weeks before this area "breaks through" into something resembling actual sustained Spring weather. I guess in Kansas it's not Spring until the tornadoes show up (grin, sort of).

ZM

Thanks for doing research on the 'Aztec Sunset' sources. Territorial is the one that wants $8 to ship one packet, so I'll keep that on my wish list. The photo provided by T & M did nothing for me.
Just this week I got a slimmer catalogue from Parks and they have a photo of an African Daisy that is very much like the "spoon" zinnias that I admired last year. They even use the word "spoon" in the description, though they use the word "spider" in its name. Let's see if I can get this link to work:

HC,

Even though T&M's picture of Aztec Sunset isn't impressive, their seeds are probably the same as Territorial's. Although I have never purchased from them, Sunrise Seeds offers Aztec Sunset. So does Hazzard's Wholesale Seeds, although they sell larger quantities. Don't know the shipping charges of those suppliers either. The $8 charge at Territoral seems very high, but perhaps that is a minimum. I'll keep that in mind when I compose an online order with them and, if my total order shipping cost seems too high, I will abort the order. I've done that before with other online orders.

The "spoony spider" daisy looks great. I would love to have a zinnia mutant show up that looked like that. It looks like something that zinnias could do.

ZM

HC and ZM,

I think the spoon look is different, too. Remember my spoon zinnia from last summer? Well, it wasn't quite so defined.......

{{gwi:1842}}

I do like the "spoon spider" mentioned by HC!

I see a listing for Aztec Sunsets in the HPS catalog, but the shipping is $7.95. I was suffering from shipping costs earlier this year, too. Anyway, in addition to shipping they want $5.50 for 250 seeds, and 9.95 for 500 seeds. They look very much like the Persian Carpets I had in my garden last summer.

HPS Aztec Sunset Zinnias

JG

The "spoon spider" looks like a combination of the 'spoon' petals of JG's specimen above and the 'tubulars' Zman grew last year. I believe it would be completely possible with zinnias and my real hope is that it would breed true as this daisy must.

JG, HC,

I really think that it would be possible to breed a strain of zinnias that looked like the Flower Power Spider Cream African daisy. Unfortunately, I have discarded all of my spooned specimens and many of my "pinched petal" specimens that looked like this one:

{{gwi:1843}}

But now that the concept is in our heads, I think we can just keep our eyes open for the genetic components needed to assemble some zinnias with that look. Incidentally, the Flower Power African daisies are sold as plants, which makes me suspect that they are asexually propagated, and not true from seed.

More later. I have been busy re-potting zinnia seedlings.

ZM

It's later. I notice that some of the seedlings that I am re-potting are showing the beginnings of central flower buds.

{{gwi:1844}}

It looks like I may have my second generation coming into bloom while my first generation is continuing to bloom and ripen green seeds. The green-seed technique is paying off.

{{gwi:1845}}

That brings up an interesting difference in zinnias. I have noticed that some zinnias become senescent and succumb after setting a few seedheads, while others continue to branch and re-branch and produce an ever increasing number of flowerheads and seedheads. Perhaps that is environmental, but I suspect that a genetic factor or factors are involved.

ZM

ZM, I just saw your paintbrush pictures from Feb. It looks like a nice acrylic paint brush.... almost too expensive for hybridizing use. :-) I use paintbrush for amaryllis hybridizing, and it has worked very nicely for me.

I have a question though, on the flowers where you use the stigmas, where are the pollens? Do you cut them off? Do they come later than the stigmas? Do you/I have to worry about self pollination?

TIA! I guess we are all getting ready for the new season. :-)

Dave,

"I have a question though, on the flowers where you use the stigmas, where are the pollens? Do you cut them off? Do they come later than the stigmas? Do you/I have to worry about self pollination?

Self pollination of a choice breeder is not necessarily a bad thing. But some zinnias don't have any pollen at all, or very little, and they are "natural" females. If a breeder does put out a few pollen florets, I usually use them to pollinate other breeders, or I may deliberately use them to self that breeder. If a zinnia produces a really large excess of pollen florets, I don't like that and it is disqualified from breeder status based on that. I may remove that plant to make room for a replacement, or just to give the nearby zinnias more room. Very, very seldom do I waste any time emasculating a zinnia. Outdoors I use nets to keep bees from stealing choice pollen and also to keep them from randomly pollinating my breeders. I also use the nets to protect my setting seeds from seed-eating birds.

The rules are a little different for the scabiosa flowered zinnias. There is frequently only one row or two of "guard" petals, and their stigmas are naturally female. The central florets can be interestingly ambiguous. Some specimens present stigmas in the florets and I frequently pollinate them as if they were petal stigmas. The later florets usually self themselves to produce floret seeds and I sometimes get pollen from them to pollinate other zinnias. This picture shows a recent bloom from an echinacea flowered hybrid that has continued to bloom while also setting seeds in older flowers on other branches.

{{gwi:1846}}

I also have progeny from this same plant (code named C6) that are now budding. And I also planted some seeds from it today. Many of its progeny were cross-pollinated with other breeders to hopefully "upgrade" it. Many will probably be single rejects. In any case, it will be interesting to see what the blooms from the new generation of hybrid zinnias will look like. I enjoy that suspense.

ZM

Does anyone know how to get to the anatomical drawing of a zinnia that was cross referenced in part 1 or 2 (or maybe the thread that preceded 1)?
I've image searched every way I can think of.

HC

Is this the Zinnia Anatomy link you are referring to? It was in Part 5, on Fri, Jul 11, 08 at 1:53

ZM

Bingo! Thanks, I thought it might be helpful to DaveMichigan.

Thanks, HC! I had seen that one before (from the zinnia thread, I believe), and I have also read the book by Welsch (something like that), but thanks for bringing it up again!

Also, I am seeing many seedlings in my zinnia patch from last year, so although I started late last year, maybe some of the flowers did set seeds and some of them are germinating now. The frost next couple of days might kill them though.

Dave,

I had several volunteer zinnias last year and one of them qualified as a scabiosa hybrid breeder. It had survived weeks of single digit temperatures, frozen rock solid. Volunteers have already demonstrated a kind of hardiness that could be useful. I haven't put any plants out yet, but we may have had our last killing frost and I think I will be putting a few tomato plants out tomorrow or the next day, with perhaps a few zinnias to keep them company.

ZM

Huh, I have never thought about that. So I should keep these seedlings then. I was thinking about scraping them because they were open pollinated, and I didn't have information about them. Now I should keep them for hardiness genes.

now slightly out of topic:
Have you read about tomatoes and marigolds? The marigolds would repel insects but also make the tomato grow better. I don't remember what the reason was (but it is technical and scientific, not just tales).

The reason I am asking is because I happen to grow some marigold last year and have hundreds or over thousands of marigold seeds. If you want some, I can send you some. I think the recommendation is 3-4 marigolads surrounding each tomato.

I just learned of the Zahara...Neil Sperry had an interesting article about them in this month's Texas Gardener. My question, given that I live in Houston and it's already hot...have I waited too long to grow them from seeds?

Thanks!

Dave,

I haven't grown tomatoes in Kansas yet, but previously my tomatoes have done OK in the absence of marigolds. In Texas, my marigolds were unable to protect themselves, and fell victim to a red spider epidemic. My main tomato problem is tomato hornworms, and I hand pick them. I won't need the marigold seeds, but thanks for the offer anyway.

ZM

carolynefox,

"My question, given that I live in Houston and it's already hot...have I waited too long to grow them from seeds? "

No, you have not waited too long. You should have plenty of time to plant zinnias, including Zaharas, in your long growing season. Given enough water and nutrients and sun, zinnias can stand the heat and they grow fast. In fact, you should be able to make several staggered plantings of zinnias, some now, some a few weeks later, and so on, until a final planting for Fall bloom. One "secret" to good looking late season zinnias is a late planting for a Fall crop. Young zinnias have a lot of natural disease resistance.

ZM

Greetings!

I have read with interest these related threads and have been motivated to plant quite a few zinnias this year. I got a bit of a late start, but I'll make the best of it! I am fortunate to have a long growing season, so that will help.

What prompted my post is the discovery of several abnormal seedlings in one particular row. This closely planted row is all seed from one particular flower head collected in 2007 and labeled orange single. I am not certain of its exact origin, though I know tht year I planted a State Fair mix as well as a Pastel Dreams mix from Seeds of Change. My guess would be the tetraploid State Fair mix....but that just decreases the odds of something like this showing up, doesn't it?

This row has 82 seedlings germinated and 4 have the completely yellow cotyledons. Because of the total lack of chlorophyll, I imagine they are not long for this world. Has anyone seen this in their seedlots?

{{gwi:1847}}

{{gwi:1848}}

This last picture shows the seed coat still attached. - Arlan

Arlan,

"This row has 82 seedlings germinated and 4 have the completely yellow cotyledons. Because of the total lack of chlorophyll, I imagine they are not long for this world. Has anyone seen this in their seedlots?"

I have seen an occasional albino (completely white) and an occasional yellow seedling, but never with your frequency of 4 in 82 seedlings. My guess is that there is something genetically different about that row of seedlings. You may see some interesting variations in their flowers.

Without chlorophyll, they won't live long. You could try to keep them on life support by swabbing a dilute sugar solution on their leaves. You can foliar feed sugar. Right off hand, I can't think of any good reason for doing that, other than the spirit of experimentation. If sugar feeding got them to the bloom stage, what would the blooms look like? And, if they set seeds, who knows what the seedlings would be like?

ZM

Hi all,

Since this message thread is becoming rather long and slow to load, we are continuing this discussion over in
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 10. See you all over there.

ZM

I breed roses for a hobby. Never looked into zinnias. Guess I have something new to try. Thank you for all of this information.
Regards,
Andrew Grover
St. Pete Fl

Andrew,

We welcome your participation in the zinnia hobby. As a rose breeder you will find that zinnia breeding works in much the same way, only much faster. Zinnias are sort of the "fruit flies" of the floral kingdom.

As you may have noticed, each thread in this series begins with a link to the previous thread and ends with a link to the next thread in the series. This is sort of the middle of the series. So there is lots of previous information and lots of information coming after this point.

ZM