The previous part of this ongoing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 8, is becoming rather long and slow to load, so we are continuing it here.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine and, as a courtesy to readers with smaller monitors, try to keep the pictures posted no wider than 986 pixels.

Once again, I'll "break the ice" with a picture (at the "limit" of 986 pixels wide). This is a picture of my entire current indoor zinnia project, taken only a few minutes ago.

I have two homemade plant stands, using chrome wire shelving units with 24" x 48" shelves and inexpensive commercial shoplights from Home Depot. My six shelves are not wholly utilized at the moment, but I will be planting more seeds and removing rejected plants to make room for them. Within a week or two I should have all the shelves fully utilized.

These two growing units are in a bay window area of the same room with my computer setup. There isn't room for another growing unit in this room. However, if the need arises, and it probably will before Spring, I can assemble a third growing unit on the landing between the ground floor and our basement.

ZM

Your indoor set-ups must lift your spirits as soon as you enter the room! They surely seem like a breath of springtime to me! I'm amazed you go from seed to flower in five weeks! For me outdoors, the first flowers usually show up about 7 weeks after sowing.

I think I will try a flat of seeds just to see if I can get some plants flowering indoors as you do. I have Physan 20 now, which I think will be a huge help in controlling fungal growth. But the plant growth regulators (to reduce height)! Wow! It sure would be nice to be able to purchase something in "trial size." Are any of them available in quantities for less than $100?

Just to add some photos to the site, below are examples of short zinnias of violaceae, marylandica, angustifolia, tenuifolia, and haageana species. I don't like them so much as the larger flowered plants, but they do have a charm of their own with almost unlimited diversity in appearance.

JG

Your pictures do give a good idea of the charming looks that the species zinnias can have, and they inspire me to attempt interspecies crosses.

"But the plant growth regulators (to reduce height)! Wow! It sure would be nice to be able to purchase something in "trial size." Are any of them available in quantities for less than $100?"

Apparently not. I was never able to find online or local retail sources of small quantities of any of the plant growth regulators I use. You might be able to find a local greenhouse grower who uses PGRs who might be willing to sell you a small quantity, or even just give you a small sample. On the other hand, they might be concerned about their liability and legal issues.

But since controlling plant height was vital to my indoor zinnia projects, I "bit the bullet" and paid those relatively high prices for plant growth regulators.

So far this Winter I have used only Topflor, but I intend to use some A-Rest as well. I had some success with both PGRs on zinnias last Winter. My first purchase was some B-Nine, but I was unaware at the time of the purchase that it had to be applied as a spray for leaf absorption and that it doesn't enter the plant through root absorption. Spraying the leaves is inconvenient for indoor gardening, and if it is very cold outside you can't move them outside to spray them. I did paint some B-Nine onto the leaves of a few zinnias using a big watercolor mop brush, and it does work well absorbed through the leaves to control internode growth. But brushing the solution on is too tedious to be practical, so I bought some A-Rest and Topflor because it easy to apply them in a soil-drench in an indoor setting.

Several of my indoor zinnias are now showing promising blooms that qualify them as breeders. I like the informal loose open form of this recombinant specimen.

That picture was taken about an hour ago. I also have several single zinnias that look pretty good, but I have resolved not to breed any strains of single zinnias. If the plant were exceptionally bushy and floriferous I might make an exception, but I haven't seen any singles like that yet.

ZM

I've been also reading about growth regulators like Bonzi and Sumagic. I guess it's a matter of studying general directions and experimenting a little to see what works best with zinnias. I think I would be on the conservative side there as far as usage goes, if I decide to try this (still thinking that over!). I notice the manufacturer of TopFlor is about twenty-five miles from my home. I will give them a call later today.

Your pink flower is nice. What are the parents? Is that a cluster of chaffy scales in the central part?

I collected and separated seeds from all of the various species of zinnias in my microgarden. I did attempt to cross several of those with taller violaceae species, (and collected those seeds separately) but I also want to see if any crosses occurred naturally among these species that were grown so closely together, so will look for that when I grow out the seeds this summer.

JG

"I've been also reading about growth regulators like Bonzi and Sumagic. I guess it's a matter of studying general directions and experimenting a little to see what works best with zinnias."

Bonzi and Sumagic can be applied either as a drench or as a spray. Bonzi is listed as especially effective on zinnias. I don't have current info on Sumagic. If I find a reasonably affordable (not a lot over $100) source of Bonzi, I may get some, in order to compare it with A-Rest and Topflor on my indoor zinnias.

"I think I would be on the conservative side there as far as usage goes, if I decide to try this (still thinking that over!). I notice the manufacturer of TopFlor is about twenty-five miles from my home."

That's interesting. Perhaps you could get a small sample of Topflor there. I guess any PGR can be phytotoxic in excess or, at a very minimum, cause excessivly stunted growth. I am still getting experience with the practical matters of applying the stuff. At about the four-true-leaf stage, my zinnias tend to put on a quick growth spurt, at which time they can outrun your attempts to control their height. The zinnia internode lengths can quickly increase at that stage, and there is no way you can "undo" that. I have a few zinnia plants that may have been overdosed with Topflor, in that they seem to be almost dwarfs, and they don't have any short zinnias in their ancestry. But they are starting to bloom, so I still have access to their breeding potential.

The lowest price that I know of at this moment for a PGR is A-Rest at $87.50 from J.R. Johnson. Shipping will probably bring that cost up into the $100 area.

"Your pink flower is nice. What are the parents? Is that a cluster of chaffy scales in the central part?"

Those are chaffy scales. It hadn't put out any pollen at the time of the picture, but I see it has put out some pollen florets this morning. Its "mother" was code-named B28, which was described in my journal as, "Big rose colored spiderish flowers, possibly the best spider of 2008. Caged, water spiked." As a choice breeder, it was selfed and crossed with "likely" males. So it is probably best described as a recombinant. I may remove the flower to encourage branching for reproduction of cuttings. But in the meantime, I will use the pollen on some other breeder females.

This is a picture of one of my current single blooms.

I am going to discard the plant, after making a note for it in my journal under the comments entered for its mother, code-named B2. B2 was described as a dark rose spider flowered zinnia planted February 2, 2008 (obviously indoors) that was an apparent cross with scabiosa heritage. Its central petals were extra curled, with possibly scabiosa floret influence. B2 has been pictured in earlier parts of this thread, and its mother was A1, a dark rose near spider flowered specimen in the 2007 season in a bed of Burpee Hybrids Mix. The zinnia in the picture probably got its "single" genes from the scabiosa flowered ancestor.

Zinnia ancestry of hybrids between hybrids can become rather complex. That's why I am using the description "recombinant" more frequently. But I do attribute the frequency of single flowers to my use of scabiosa flowered breeder material. However, I won't let that deter me from continuing to use the scabies. I think those colored disk florets have real potential.

ZM

I have been routinely discarding single zinnias as they bloom, but for this one I made an exception, because it has a side branch that has a plan-of-three. Perhaps you can see it in the picture.

The plan-of-three property (threesie or 3Z for short) usually appears on only the main stem. In this case, a side branch has the plan-of-three, establishing that side branches can have that characteristic. This threesie thing has been elusive for me, appearing unexpectedly in every hundred or so seedlings and refusing, so far, to come true from seed. It has not been established that it is even genetic, but I plan to pursue it as circumstances allow. This pictured specimen is now designated as a breeder.

I suspect that the plan-of-three thing is controlled by genes, but in a rather complex and subtle way, involving several genes, possibly located on more than one chromosome. An ultimate zinnia breeding objective for me would be plan-of-three in both the main stem and all side branches as well. That would make for a very bushy plant structure.

ZM

This zinnia is also a breeder, based on its good pink color and subtle picotee edging on the petals.

It most likely inherited that color pattern from one or more Whirligig-type ancestors.

ZM

The 3Z pictured above was not from a 3Z parent. In fact, I have yet to get a 3Z plant from a seed saved from a 3Z plant. That's why I think there must be something genetically complicated about the 3Z phenomenon.

I am beginning to understand that recombinants with one or more scabiosa flowered ancestors produce a high percentage of singles, and that is something I have to expect. However, a few of those recombinants are worthy of being breeders, such as this recent "Echinacea flowered" specimen.

This is not an extra good example, because the central florets are a little drab colored. But, among other things, I hope to produce a strain of Echinacea flowered zinnias.

ZM

At least, it will approximate the Echinacea flowered strain after it finishes filling in the center with colored florets.

ZM

Your pink and picotee flower posted Mon, Jan 26, 09 at 1:00
is a beauty! I hope you can get that one to reproduce by seed true to form! Then, you can sell me some seed ;-).....
Really, I hope you can get lots of those! Very nice! There are many possibilities for breeding there, too.

The threesies plan is interesting, but like you, I still wonder how easy that character is to get on a dependable basis. I can't help but wonder if it's a response to a minor injury during development. Although, if it's similar to four-leaf clovers genetics-wise, you may be able to get a strain that reliably makes more leaves...I think folks have done that in clovers....

HC, I'm kind of doing what you are--dedicating a part of my garden to newly ordered seeds from companies and a larger part to seed I've generated here in past years. Although it's nice to get the company flowers to bloom and use for crossing, the real excitement comes from the offspring of crosses you've made! It's a constant surprise in the garden!

JG

The "pink and picotee" isn't my only "hot" breeder at this moment. This pink-marbled-ivory has an open flower form, and I really like the marbling of the colors. These colors remind me of apple blossoms and of certain roses that I have seen. I've said it before, that zinnias are my roses.

I would like to get a whole marbled-color strain with many color combinations, all with various marbling effects. And I really like these loose, informal flower forms. The petals are not tightly packed, the flower form is "airy" and you can "see through" the flower. Because of the reduced petal count, there aren't too many rows of them, so you could consider this flower form as semi-double. But, semantically, I prefer not to think of them as "semi" anything, but as fully fun-loving blooms.

ZM

The marbling effect would look great if you could get that to work in many colors, or actually, even just one color. Your pink flowers are very nice. The prettiest marbling I've ever seen in a flower is in the 'Honky Tonk Blues' iris. I would put a photo in here, but I don't see anything online that comes close to doing it justice, and the pictures I've taken are buried on a CD from years past. But, back to zinnias, it would be great to develop a strain with marbling. I also do like that last flower you've posted. A bouquet of those in several colors would
magnifique!

I've ordered seeds, and more seeds. I think I've got enough to grow an acre, at least. Wish I had the energy to do that! But I think I will come close to 1/4 of an acre...

JG

"The marbling effect would look great if you could get that to work in many colors..."

I'm trying to do that by crossing the marbled specimens with other colors. Once I get to the point of stabilizing the strain by re-selection, I may have the opportunity to simultaneously select better marbling patterns.

"I've ordered seeds, and more seeds. I think I've got enough to grow an acre, at least. Wish I had the energy to do that! But I think I will come close to 1/4 of an acre..."

I wish I had an acre. I could fill an enormous compost pile with rejects and in the process get some really good stuff. But your zinnia patch of about a quarter of an acre could be very productive of improved and new zinnias.

On this Kansas rental property I probably can't exceed one thousand square feet of zinnia patch, which means that my grow-out will be on the order of one thousand plants or so. That's less than a third of what I had last year. I'll try to be more efficient and also try to capitalize on my indoor operation. I recently assembled a third plant stand to increase my indoor growing capacity. It's located down on the basement landing.

This scabiosa heritage zinnia specimen is similar to, but different from, the one shown back on Thu, Jan 29, 09 at 2:15.

The mixed central florets are not ideal, but I like the three-color effect in the guard petals. There is some pink at the base of the petals that doesn't show up well in the shadows on the picture. The same was true of the previous picture.

I will also save seeds from this one, hoping for something better than this one, but aware that most, if not all, of the progeny will be single "daisies" or otherwise not desirable. But there is the off chance that something really good could come from this one.

ZM

Your scabious zinnias are nice! I look forward to seeing how the new Park "Candy Mix" scabious zinnias will look. I expect they may be an improvement on the scabious zinnias Park has offered before, of which they are now out of stock.

Since I have no zinnias growing at present, I will show some of the scabious zinnias I grew this past summer. I have saved seed from many of these; many have been selfed; some have been crossed wirth other types of zinnia.

JG

Wow! That is an impressive gallery of scabious zinnias. You have an excellent stock of them. Your pictures show several of the interesting variations that the strain offers. For example, in your first picture the disk florets are actually toothed petals with accessible stigmas. Those florets are almost as long as the guard petals. Lots of breeding potential there. I haven't had one just like it, but if I did, it would be a prized breeder.

Your second one is a great lipstick red with longer, narrower guard petals than is usual for the strain. It's possibly a hybrid with a conventional zinnia. Your fifth one looks very similar to the one I pictured above, only yours has no obvious defects. It could also be a hybrid.

Your fourteenth one (the second from the last) has about the best central disk floret mound that I have seen. You have several that are essentially marigold flowered. There isn't a cull in the bunch. Thanks for putting together that remarkable display for us.

I received my order of Candy Mix from Parks a couple of days ago. They weren't shipped with the rest of my Parks order (two packets of Uproar) because the Candy Mix were on back order. That worried me. But, not to worry, they got them and I got them. I ordered 10 packets, partly as insurance against them being discontinued next year. I notice that Parks got them from England. Like you, I can't wait to see how they turn out. I think I will plant a few seeds of them in a day or two, to get a "sneak peek". Today I received my Peruvian Zinnias from Monticello. I need to plant a few of those too. It's easier to cross pollinate inside than out. But more on that later.

ZM

I mentioned in my last message that it is easier to pollinate inside than out. Up until recently I have been using the old tried-and-true technique of picking a pollen-bearing floret with tweezers, twizzors, twissors, or forceps and rubbing the floret on the stigmas of the female flower. That technique, in effect, uses the floret as a disposable brush to apply the pollen.

I have been noticing that many of my florets, indoors in the absence of wind or insects, produce a relatively heavy pile of pollen in the center of the floret in the morning. As I approached a stigma with such a floret, little piles of pollen would fall out on the petal before I got the floret onto the stigma. In order not to waste that pollen, I used a fine pointed artists brush to pick up the pollen from the petals where it had fallen and gently deposit it on the stigmas.

That got me to thinking, why not pick up the pollen directly from the centers of the florets using the artists brush, and apply it to the stigmas with the brush? I have been doing that for the last several days, with apparent success.

Breeders of other plants have routinely used small brushes to transfer pollen, so this isn't anything new. But zinnia breeders have used the florets directly because they are handy. I won't know for sure how well the brush technique is actually working for my zinnias until a few weeks from now when I am harvesting green seeds to start a new generation of hybrid seedlings. But it appears to be working, because the stigmas are dying, as they do after they have been successfully pollinated. The hairs of the artist brush appear to work as well as the hairs on the bees that pollinate zinnias. This is a picture of the brush touching a floret to get some pollen on the tip.

Sometimes just touching the pollen in the center of a floret is all that it takes to get a load of pollen on the brush tip. Sometimes, especially when I am returning to a floret for some more pollen, I rotate the brush a little to help pick up pollen from the floret. This is a picture of depositing the pollen from the brush onto a stigma.

Incidentally, I chose that zinnia as a breeder based on the wavy edges of the petals, which give it a frilly look. I look for differences in flower form, as well as flower colors and color patterns.

ZM

The "Candy Mix" from Park also came late for me, days after other seeds of my Park order came in. When I saw that, I did the same as you. And that was, to order more packs of "Candy Mix" while they still were on inventory. That may be a good thing to do, as I saw that both Park and T&M (the only sources I know of for scabious zinnias) were both out of stock of their usual (from past years) offering of scabies.

I tried the forceps when I first started to cross zinnias last year, but, I quickly resorted to the paintbrush method as I had used it on day lilies in years before. I like it because the brush retains more pollen after contact with the stamens, particularly if you have to walk some distance in the garden to pollinate! Also, I have found that when left on the flower, some of those little complete disc flowers will often shed more pollen in the future, which you would sacrifice if you remove them for pollinating with the forceps.

The wavy look on your last flower posted on Thu, Feb 5, 09 at 12:52 is attractive. You would almost expect that to be accompanied by the wavy-edged leaves!

JG

"The wavy look on your last flower posted on Thu, Feb 5, 09 at 12:52 is attractive. You would almost expect that to be accompanied by the wavy-edged leaves!"

You would expect that, but in that case the leaves are not wavy-edged. Hopefully, as time goes on, my preference for wavy structures will result in my crossing zinnias with both wavy leaves and wavy petals to obtain a wavy strain of zinnias, but we aren't there yet. This is a current breeder with some waviness to its petals:

It has enough petal waviness to give the flower a frilly look that I find attractive, so I am giving it special attention. However, its leaves aren't wavy either. Hopefully I will get some more wavy-leaved zinnias in the not-too-distant future.

ZM

That last post shows an astounding flower. All I can say is, I hope you get lots more like that one!!

JG

I agree. It will be hard to top that one. But I am pollinating it with its own pollen and the pollen of other top breeders, so let's hope that a roll of the dice in a gene recombination will turn out well.

I have learned from experience that seedlings from hybrids involving scabiosa flowered zinnias result in a lot of single flowered recombinants, which I discard, but occasionally something promising turns up. This one has scabiosa genes and looks like it may develop into a good echinacea flowered bloom.

I like the long down-sloping petals and the upstanding florets. These florets are somewhat larger than average and I hope that, if I grow enough scabiosa flowered hybrids, that a lucky recombination of genes, or a mutation, or both, will result in a breakthrough to really large florets. Hope springs eternal.

ZM

In the last few days, that rose-pink "echie" has developed a fuller center and its petals have extended to a more horizontal position.

It is possible that its center will fill in completely. I have been pollinating it with several breeders, including larger zinnias like the frilly pink one above, as well as other echinacea flowered types. I am hoping to get some seed yield from the florets as well as from the petals.

ZM

The last two photos are interesting as they show the way that flower develops. More and more in the catalogs, I see scabious zinnia-like coneflowers ;-)! Being that they are both composite flowers, there are many types of possible gene expressions that they could share, as is shown by your last posts.

The color of the flower is nice. Has a "Candy Mix" plant bloomed for you yet?

JG

"Has a "Candy Mix" plant bloomed for you yet?"

Actually, I haven't even planted any Candy Mix seeds yet. I intend to do that in the next few days. I do have an Aztec Sunset in bloom and I am pollinating it with several breeders. Ironically, that Aztec Sunset is a combination of purple and yellow that comes off as an odd brownish color.

Well, I have a few more Aztec Sunsets that will be blooming soon and I hope a few of them are a little more attractive. It isn't my intention to breed a strain of brown zinnias. But I do find it interesting to be crossing my breeders onto these Z. haageanas. I can't wait to see whether I get any viable seeds from those interspecies crosses.

ZM

It amazes me how well your indoor zinnias do! If any of us can get a violaceae-haageana cross, that will be very interesting. The haageana blooms are outstanding because there are so many patterns among them. Large flowers with those patterns and colors would be a true breakthrough--reminescent of chrysanthemums, but blooming in the summer.
A brown flower alone may not be all that outstanding, but in a mixed bouquet, it could look pretty sharp...

JG

I agree that the Z. haageana Persian Carpets and Aztec Sunsets have some great colors and color patterns to contribute to our zinnias if we can succeed with those interspecies crosses. Apparently long ago zinnia breeders did succeed with them, because the Whirligigs, Carrousels, and Zig Zags are said to have gotten their bicolor and tricolor combinations from genes that crossed that interspecies barrier.

I am pleased with my progress in growing zinnias indoors in the Winter, but I am still learning how to improve on my results. I am filtering the chlorine out of our tap water for use on my indoor zinnias and trying to give them a complete mix of soluble nutrients, including soluble calcium in the form of calcium nitrate. I think my Winter zinnia breeding would work a lot better if I had a greenhouse, but in our present rental situation that isn't possible.

I showed a picture of a picotee zinnia with light colored petal tips in a picture above on Mon, Jan 26, 09 at 1:00. Now I have a recombinant with pigment concentration near the tips of the petals, to give a dark colored picotee effect.

I somewhat doubt that this color pattern results from Whirligig ancestry. I have had other breeders with a similar dark edge to their petals that had no known Whirligig ancestry, including a toothy picotee Burpeeana from Tanzania last year. I like unusual colors and color patterns.

ZM

The picotee effect is unusual--I've only seen the thinly colored edges in my late fall zinnias, and at that time, I believe it was just an environmental effect. It's a trait you should try to keep in your lines!

I was doing an inventory of the new seeds I've bought for this spring planting. Among these, I have ordered "Old Mexico" zinnias from Burpee. I actually thought they were another form of Zinnia haageana, and no doubt they are, as the color pattern is much the same as what you might see in some of the Persian Carpets or Aztec Sunsets. But Burpee says these produce 2 1/2 inch flowers, and I was interested to see on the packet I received that they are tetraploid -guess that would explain the larger flower size. That is kind of inconsistent with Burpee's claim that they are heirlooms unless this was something that occurred naturally. I notice in Boyle and Stimart's "Chapter 12" that they write "Old Mexico" is a Zinnia haageana, although I doubt if they were referring to the tetraploid cultivar.

JG

"...Burpee says these produce 2 1/2 inch flowers, and I was interested to see on the packet I received that they are tetraploid -guess that would explain the larger flower size. That is kind of inconsistent with Burpee's claim that they are heirlooms..."

Burpee probably considers the "heirloom" description for Old Mexico to be consistent, on the basis that that this open pollinated tetraploid zinnia has been in the trade for several decades. I believe it was artificially produced by the use of Colchicine, possibly by W. Atlee Burpee's plant breeders.

I am a little curious why Boyle and Stimart failed to mention that Old Mexico is a tetraploid. Apparently autotetraploid cultivars are considered to remain within the same species, while allotetraploids are considered to be new species (as in Z. marylandica.) You might be able to cross the tetraploid Old Mexico with the tetraploid Violaceas like State Fair and Burpee's Big Tetra Mix.

This is a current picture of a scabiosa hybrid that shows Whirligig influence in its coloration.

The two colors are quite pastel, but I like them anyway. I hope that its offspring can include some improved forms, particularly in the florets.

ZM

"The haageana blooms are outstanding because there are so many patterns among them. Large flowers with those patterns and colors would be a true breakthrough--reminiscent of chrysanthemums, but blooming in the summer."

I agree with you whole-heartedly. For example, Aztec Sunset also has the same dark purple tipped white that I used to admire among my Persian Carpets. This is one of my recent Aztec Sunsets:

That flower is rather small, but it would be spectacular in a 6-inch bloom with a more refined petal form. I will be pollinating it with a bunch of my large Z. violacea breeders, and hope that something comes of it.

ZM

The cross Z'man suggested between 'Old Mexico' and 'State Fair' should be feasible (though challenging) since Stimart and Boyle state that crosses between 'Profusion' and 'Burpee's Big Tetra' are possible, but sterile.

On a side note, the photos in this thread are nothing short of stunning!!! I'm with JG when it comes to a brown zinnia. I'm actually hoping for a brown or coffee-colored specimen among my 'Aztec Sunsets'.

"The information I have about 48 chromosomed 'Old Mexico" being an autotetraploid of Zinnia haageana actually was gleaned from chapter 12 by Stimart and Boyle.

I missed seeing that. I did see the reference to Old Mexico on page 341, where they said, "Three improved cultivars of Z. haageana have been introduced: 'Persian Carpet', 'Old Mexico", and 'Chippendale'. These first two cultivars won All-America Selections awards in 1952 and 1962, respectively. Zinnia haageana has not received as much attention by breeders as Z. violacea."

I had missed seeing their reference on page 347, "In Z. violacea, autotetraploid plants were produced in the 1930s (Cook, 1938) and the first autotetraploid cultivar ('State Fair') was released by Ferry Morse Seed Company in the 1950s. Several other autotetraploid cultivars have been introduced since that time. 'Old Mexico', an autotetraploid Z. haageana cultivar, was released in 1962. All autotetraploid zinnia cultivars released to date are open-pollinated." So I should not have said that, "I am a little curious why Boyle and Stimart failed to mention that Old Mexico is a tetraploid" in my message on Mon, Feb 16, 09 at 22:50.

"I'm with JG when it comes to a brown zinnia. I'm actually hoping for a brown or coffee-colored specimen among my 'Aztec Sunsets'."

Well, I think you will be pleased to find a whole range of brownish colors in your Aztec Sunsets. I have only three Aztec Sunsets in bloom at this moment, but two of them have brownish colors. As far as I can tell, I am seeing only three pigments in my Aztec Sunsets: purple, white, and yellow. Various combinations of purple and yellow (and possibly white) make various brownish colors. As I recall, Persian Carpets also had a red pigment. Since Aztec Sunset is ostensibly an improved re-selected strain of Persian Carpets, I won't be surprised to see red and/or pink appear, and with yellow that could make various oranges.

If I do get hybrids from Aztec Sunset x Zinnia violaceas, I will try to self them and cross them with each other and back-cross them to both parents. And if none of those things produces viable seeds, I would try taking cuttings from them. I wouldn't take cuttings indefinitely, but I would take enough cuttings to increase the number of potential seeds, to increase the chance of a viable seed by sheer numbers.

Incidentally, I have been putting a lot of pollen on my Aztec Sunset stigmas and, sure enough, a lot of those stigmas are withering and dying as they do when fertilized. Knock on wood.

Thanks for the compliment on the pictures. When I have time, I do try to take flower portraits rather than simple snapshots. And, since I am retired, I do have some time to do things like that. I hope to get a better camera this year. My wife's point-and-shoot is rather limited in what it can do. When I do get a digital SLR, I will have the advantage of interchangeable lenses, including the availability of sharper lenses, controllable depth of focus, and macro lenses. I would have liked to get sharper detail in the smaller Aztec Sunset blooms, but my wife's point-and-shoot doesn't even have threads to let me screw on a close-up lens. So I crop my photos to get a close-up effect, and try to get sharper focus in post processing.

ZM

HC, thanks for further reading and finding the info on "Old Mexico." I should have looked for the facts more carefully on that strain! It is interesting to see how the tetraploidy contributes to the larger flowers. I plan to try some crosses with that cultivar this summer.

Probably like all of you, I now have at least 20 different seed catalogs. In one, I found another source for scabious zinnias, in "The Cook's Garden." A packet contains 100 seeds.

The Cook's Garden -- Scabiosaflora Mix

JG

Thanks for the link to another source of scabiosa flowered zinnias at Cook's Garden. I don't have their catalog. I don't have as many catalogs as you do, although I do have several, including two from Parks. I wish Parks wouldn't waste their money sending out updates to their catalog. They are one of my prime seed sources, and I don't want to see them go bankrupt. It was traumatic for me when Burpee almost went bankrupt.

I usually order online, and I do plan to get some of Cook's Scabiosaflora Mix. From their description of it, it sounds like it is an independent source, so it could add to my zinnia gene pool.

Perhaps it is a good thing that we can't cover up our mistakes here. But sometimes, like now, I wish that we could. If I could have edited my message above to share HC's compliment of the photos in this message thread with you, I certainly would have done so. I was remiss in not acknowledging your many contributions of photos of zinnia specimens, including the amazing galleries of your pictures in this message thread. We recognize and appreciate your time, effort, and ingenuity in preparing those pictures for display here, and we admire the great variety of your zinnias, and your pictures of them, that have already emerged in your zinnia "melting pot". And your uniquely informed background has made your contributions most valuable.

ZM

I was sure that HC was referring to all the pictures posted on this thread, including those offered by you, me, and the others. No need to worry to not have included me there! If we had all been sitting at a table when HC mentioned her impressions on the photos, we would have all said thanks. And HC, we look forward to seeing how your crosses result in photos, I hope! ZM, yours are outstanding specimens in that they are originating from planned crosses that you have made! Many are beautiful and unique--and I hope reproducible, too! Look forward to more...

JG

I appreciate the tolerant and understanding responses from both you and Holtzclaw. Like him, I warm to the mental image of our little group sitting around a table, engaging in conversation like an extended family, trading ideas and, yes, zinnia seeds. For the time being, we can be a virtual extended family, with an interest in common.

"...yours are outstanding specimens in that they are originating from planned crosses that you have made! Many are beautiful and unique--and I hope reproducible, too!"

I hope for reproducibility, too. Desirable new features have been at least partially reproducible, but only partially. About one in three of my seedlings from the crinkly leaved yellow specimen retained that feature, but those that didn't showed signs of having been crossed with something else. I may save some seeds from them, hoping that the desired missing characteristics were "hidden" as a recessive that could pop out in the next generation.

I don't plan to take that gamble with a lot of my seedlings, though, because right now I have available probably less than a quarter of the outside growing space that I did in Maine. Here in Kansas, just looking around here on this Wellsville town lot, and estimating some growing spaces by eye, it looks like maybe 1000 square feet available here. I had over 4000 square feet in Maine because I had been expanding my main terrace every year, and I had plans and the necessary tools to open up a second terrace below that. Oh well, water under the bridge.

Some of my current breeders give me reason for optimism even with my limited space. One thousand square feet could translate into one thousand zinnia plants, with the possibility of 50 worthy new breeders. And, if I am quick to remove and replace rejects, many of those square feet could grow two or more breeding candidates before frost.

I am also feeling kind of upbeat because some of my breeders that I pollinated early in January now seem to have some plantable green seeds, so I will be reconfiguring my plant stands to accommodate some new seedling flats as well as many of my larger breeders. It feels good to be starting my second generation this early in the year.

ZM

I should be able to direct sow the last week in April. If I start any zinnias indoors this year, it will be a minimal number of very special specimens.
I am giving 'Highlights' another go because Burpee is offering pelleted seed this year. That makes me feel like I'm not the only one whose 'Highlights' flopped and that Burpee is trying to ensure better results. I was also surprised that they are offering 'White Star', which looks like a Z. angustifolia, for $1.07.

It looks like we are all looking forward to the outdoor growing season! I would like to start some seeds indoors now, but the plants I am most interested in are those that hopefully come from the crosses I made last summer, and with my very limited experience with long-term indoor gardening of zinnias and the excellent conditions I (usually) get outside here in Indiana, I am going to wait until late April. Then I will start sowing some of the more hopeful offspring of my crosses indoors to transfer outside second week of May. I have very few seeds of some crosses and I want to supervise their germination before setting them out. Then, there are some of the more expensive seeds which I will also start a few weeks ahead indoors. These would include "Big Red" (I love the size and color of the flowers!), some of the Swizzles, Burpee's "White Wedding,"
and some of the "Queen Red Lime" from Johnny's (I finally got that shipment this week). I also got a pack of "Highlights," and I will start some of those indoors as well. I haven't grown those before, so, HC, maybe we can compare our results!

Commercial sources of seeds for me this year include Park, Cook's Garden, T&M, Pinetree Gardens, Rich Farms, Shumway, Stokes, Johnnie's, Territorial Seeds, Wildseed Farms, Select Seeds, Burpee, and Vesey's. I get carried away when I see the catalogs--no wonder my budget doen't permit purchase of growth inhibitor this year! Wildseed Farms offered fairly inexpensive packs of zinnias which I will try for the first time. They sell 1/4 lb. packs of cactus-flowered and dahlia-flowered zinnias for $8.50-a lot of seeds! These may not be elite strains, but I look forward to seeing what they are like.

For long-term indoor growing, I still do need to purchase the growth inhibitor, which I am now convinced is an important component for some of these strains as that usually like to shoot up 3 feet or more! Maybe next season....

JG

"I am giving 'Highlights' another go because Burpee is offering pelleted seed this year. That makes me feel like I'm not the only one whose 'Highlights' flopped and that Burpee is trying to ensure better results."

I didn't see a pelleted seed offer for Highlight Hybrid zinnias, although they may be on seed racks that I haven't seen. My Burpee catalog, on page 12, offers a packet of 25 seeds of Highlight Hybrid for $5.25. That is 21¢ per seed. There is no indication that they are pelleted. That seems to agree with what they offer on the Burpee online store. The Highlight Hybrid looks very much a Z. marylandica to me, which would put them in a class with Profusions, Pinwheels, and Zahara. Highlight Hybrid's high price per seed would suggest that they may be F1 hybrids, which could mean they are the first commercially offered F1 hybrid Z. marylandicas. Burpee sells 50 seeds of Pinwheels for $2.95, which makes them about 6¢ per seed, reflecting that they are an open pollinated non-hybrid strain. Burpee also sells a few "Profusion Series Hybrid" zinnias at 25 seeds for $3.75.

This brings up a pet peeve of mine. I think it is unfortunate that Burpee goes along with the popular description of Profusions as "hybrid" when, in fact, they are open pollinated. Some seedsmen may not know the difference, but in either case, they have profited indirectly from the urban myth that Profusions are hybrids, because that myth has discouraged a lot of people from saving seeds from their Profusions because "they wouldn't come true".

If Highlight Hybrid truly is a hybrid, as their high price per seed might suggest, then Burpee should label them as an F1 hybrid. As professional seedsmen, Burpee should use the word "hybrid" so as not to mislead their customers. They list Zowie Hybrid at 15 seed for $4.95 and Zowie is indeed an F1 hybrid. But Burpee's catalog lists Border Beauty Hybrid Mix, Profusion Series Hybrids, Tetra Hybrids, and Burpee Hybrids Mix, all of which are open pollinated. At one time Burpee did offer Zenith Hybrid zinnias, and the Zeniths were true F1 hybrids. But the seed buying public currently has no way of knowing what the word "hybrid" actually means when it describes the product they are spending their hard-earned money for. And the potential for fraud in that situation, intended or not, calls for reform, before some canny group of consumers decides to launch a class action lawsuit.

"I was also surprised that they are offering 'White Star', which looks like a Z. angustifolia, for $1.07."

I also don't see that offer from Burpee. You must have a different source than I have, which could explain the pelleted seed discrepancy. Zinnia White Star may be very similar to Zinnia White Crystal. Zinnia White Crystal was a 1997 AAS Winner, and indeed it is Z. angustifolia and it is offered by several seed companies, but I couldn't find it at Burpee. Seed racks?

ZM

"I would like to start some seeds indoors now, but the plants I am most interested in are those that hopefully come from the crosses I made last summer, and with my very limited experience with long-term indoor gardening of zinnias and the excellent conditions I (usually) get outside here in Indiana, I am going to wait until late April."

That's probably prudent. I feel comfortable starting zinnias inside only because I have done it for several years and developed my own "technology". I start all of my green seeds indoors. The main risk is that you forget to water or that you need to go on a trip and have to make arrangements for someone to water them or devise some sort of self-watering system. Outdoors you get rains, or you can set up a timer on a garden hose. I use the Water Spikes outdoors for some special breeders.

Last year I planted the majority of my commercial cultivar zinnias in-ground. In-ground planting has some hazards. But there can be hazards even when you set out fairly large seedlings. Last year I had cutworm attacks on some surprisingly large seedlings. They felled zinnia seedlings with as many as four true-leaf-pairs. Only a pair or two away from forming a flower bud. I made it a point to seek out and destroy the cutworms on the very morning that the fallen plant appeared. That way they didn't have time to move on to another plant. I am curious to see how much of a cutworm problem I have here in Kansas.

"For long-term indoor growing, I still do need to purchase the growth inhibitor"

I have had mixed results with growth inhibitors. I still haven't perfected an application protocol that is dependable. About a third, maybe half, of my treated seedlings did as I wanted, and bloomed within the available shelf spacing. I over-applied it to a few seedlings, and produced some pathetically short zinnias. One Aztec Sunset had almost zero internode length, and looks like some kind of bonsai. Maybe I will take a picture of it. Other zinnias got away from me and, when that happens, you can't reverse it, unless you get out the pruning shears.

It may be more cost effective to simply provide indoor growing room and let them grow naturally. However, I already have the stuff, so I will continue experimenting with plant growth regulators on my seedlings, just to try to perfect my techniques, and develop some better "protocols". So far it has been "trial and error". Or, as my Mother used to say, "By guess and by golly". Timing is everything. Apply the PGR too soon and the plant becomes a dwarf. Let the plant get one or two too many true-leaf pairs, and it is gone regardless of the PGR, and you get a tall plant with some long internodes on the lower part of the stem, with shorter internodes appearing too late on the upper stem. It is an ongoing learning experience for me and, oddly, kind of fun.

"...They sell 1/4 lb. packs of cactus-flowered and dahlia-flowered zinnias for $8.50-a lot of seeds!"

That is economical. Stokes sells ¼ pound of Burpeeana Giants Mix for $14.60.

ZM

It think it is OK to mention stores by name, like Target. Just mentioning a store isn't advertising. I have noticed the same thing you did about the seed racks.

I have been suspecting that the Burpeeana Giants Mix seeds may actually be cheaper on a per seed basis from the seed racks than from the catalog or website. The packets cost less but contain fewer seeds, so I will need to compare the contents versus the packet prices. I plan to buy a packet or two from one of our local seed racks and open it up and count seeds to see if that is a more economical way to get zinnia seeds.

ZM

I'm glad you have initiated a conversation on buying seeds locally. I honestly didn't think of looking for seed racks in the store you referred to, but today on a shopping trip, I did. Here are the figures I have for Burpee's "Highlight," having purchased a packet of seed there today. The packet I received by mail from Burpee had 55 mg, and upon count, 30 seeds, for $5.25 or $0.175 per seed (as for shipping cost, if you got a single packet, that would be $6.95 for shipping ALONE, but we won't take that into consideration here). The packet of "Highlight" I bought today was labeled as having 12 seeds per $1.69 packet, or $0.141 per seed. If you count in the IN. 6% sales tax, that would be 12 seeds for $1.70, or $0.142 per seed. This store purchase is a bargain. Truth is, though, I actually got 14 seeds in that packet today, so that cost would be $0.121 per seed, including the tax. One thing more, although the store packet mentioned that the seeds were pelleted, I saw no evidence that they were--they looked just like uncoated seeds.

To continue, I had previous purchased by mail (online) 400 mg (estimated 50 seeds) of Burpeeana Giants Mix from Burpee for $4.95. Actually, there were 55 seeds, so cost would be $0.09 per seed. Are you ready for this? Today, from the rack, I bought 400 mg Burpeeana Giants Mix for $1.69, or $1.70 including tax. Actually, there were 48 seeds, so the cost would be $0.035 per seed. Oh my!

I guess Burpee counts on making more from the racks in the store because of higher volume sales, so they can cut the price there. They only market the most popular of their seeds there, too, so there is less of their total products in the store.

Possibly an advantage of receiving the more expensive seed through the mail would be the better seed storage at Burpee rather than in the store, over time. So the moral is, when the seeds hit the stores, check them out for price against the catalog and buy them then if less expensive!

JG

Your results confirmed my suspicions. Thanks much for your detailed report. Now I plan to buy several packets of Burpeeana Giants Mix from our local seed racks and see what I get.

"Possibly an advantage of receiving the more expensive seed through the mail would be the better seed storage at Burpee rather than in the store, over time."

I assume the seed companies store under optimal conditions, but I wonder about the unknown storage conditions that the seeds experience while in the possession of the United States Postal Service. They could get too hot in a warehouse or a delivery vehicle. I received an order of seed earlier this year when the outside temperature was in the single digits and the package spent at least an hour in our mail box in the bitter cold.

That probably didn't hurt them, because I had quite a few "volunteer" zinnias in our Maine garden, and they sustained several weeks of single digit temperatures frozen rock hard in the upper soil layer. There would have been several days of sub-zero temperature. A couple of those volunteer zinnias even turned out to be scabiosa hybrid breeder quality zinnias.

On the other hand, garden writers frequently advise against storing seed in your freezer. But, for some seed that require cold pre-treatment, freezer storage might even be a good thing. Now I am curious how zinnia seeds respond to cold pre-treatment. The Winter Sowing enthusiasts plant a lot of things in conditions that would naturally involve at least some cold pre-treatment.

ZM

I would suspect a subtropical plant like the zinnia would not be so dependent on seed stratification as cold weather plants like some of the poppies (I am getting ready to sow some of those today).. And, also as long as the zinnia seeds are kept well-dried, they should be able to handle extreme cold (not heat, though!). I would think being wet in the cold would be risky for them. I am surprised to hear of your volunteer plants! I don't think I've ever seen any here, but that may be because I usually till the soil pretty well in the fall after I've cut down the plants.

To correct the seed prices from above with Indiana tax, the "Highlight" would be $ 0.149 per seed, and Burpeanna Giants Mix would be $ 0.037 per seed--being that the total per pack would be $1.69 + $0.101 tax, not $1.70! Still both are less than the mail shipment, especially when considering the cost for postage..

JG

You're probably right. I can't think of what advantage stratification might realistically have for zinnias. I was wondering if cold pre-treatment might somehow cause the zinnia seeds to germinate faster. I have occasionally experienced one-day germination with a heating mat, and someone else in another forum reported one-day germination with zinnia seeds, also with a heating mat. But usually I get only two-day to four-day germination, even with my heating mat. As I recall, you got some one-day germination in a baggie or paper towel or something, didn't you? I think it would be kind of neat if we could get one-day germination all the time in seedling trays. But since I usually get 2-day to 4-day germination in my little pots, I guess there isn't a lot to be gained.

I planted a few of Burpee's Tequila Lime zinnias, and they have been an odd bunch. This is a picture of one of the more on-type current specimens.

I prefer Tequila Lime to Envy, although Tequila Lime seems to be a rather unstable strain. I had a couple of singles, one of which also started out as a plan-of-three plant. The on-type Tequila Lime has a white center, as opposed to the greenish center of Envy. I wish I had a good all-white breeder right now to cross with my Tequila Limes, but I guess I will make do with the lighter colors that I have (a few pale pastels and ivory). I don't like those spoon-shaped petals, and I would like to cross these with something to give them a cactus or spider flower form.

ZM

The Tequila Lime is a great green. I love it! Now I'm extra glad I have a pack waiting to be planted. Why don't you try the strain of white zinnia that Burpee is offering called "White Wedding Zinnia" ?

I'm thinking there might be some interesting crosses with that one. In some of the listed reviews, several readers said there was a tinge of green in those flowers toward the center. That could be a result of the amount of sun the flowers get-possibly the green happens when they are planted in part shade? Just a thought..as I noticed some of my Envies last year tended to get paler green the older the flowers got when they were in full sun. Then, there were also a few Envies that had patches of white throughout the plant, even in the stems, no matter what the age, probably because of a mutation.

Yes, I got very rapid germination (overnight!) with the Park Seeds I tried last year in the magenta boxes. They were actually sitting on elevated filter paper saturated with hydroponic solution in the boxes, with the boxes sitting on a heating pad. I think Park does a first- rate job of packaging seeds in those foil packets and most likely, their storage conditions are good, too. I've never been disappointed in Park seeds of any kind.

Love that green--and it's only 16 more days until the official Green Holiday!

JG

I already have a packet of White Wedding and plan to plant a few seeds of it this week. I bought it last year, but was hesitant to plant it based on its low plant habit at 12-16 inches. That puts them in basically the same plant class as the Magellans at 12-14 inches. My experience with Magellans is that at 12 inches, their flowers are too close to the ground and in rainy weather they can get a lot of soil splashed up onto their blooms at that height, which can lead to disease problems and even problems from slugs, earwigs, and pillbugs.

However, I will willingly cross my taller zinnias with White Weddings as well as other short bedding plant zinnias like Magellans, Dreamlands, Peter Pans, Swizzles, Parasols, and Pulcinos in order to get intermediate plant heights with better branching. My target minimum plant height range would be more in the 16-inch to 22-inch range in order to keep the blooms at a reasonable height above the ground. But the shorter zinnias could be a means to that end if I can increase their height and spread. Plant habit is important to me.

ZM

This is another of my current bicolor "breeder" zinnias. I have been crossing it with several of my other breeders. It looks something like a Swizzle, but it is on a much taller plant.

In the past I have been inclined to dislike upcurled petals, because they do show some of the backsides of the petals, and the backsides of petals don't have the good color that the topsides have. However, this flower form has a certain appeal to me and I am coming to be more tolerant of upcurled zinnia petals, or I wouldn't have designated this zinnia as a breeder.

ZM

I also have had three zinnias die from stem rot at the soil level. I don't know if it is a fungal rot or a bacterial rot. Since the rot destroys a short section of the stem at the base of the plant, there is nothing you can do to cure the infection to save the plant. Prevention is the only control. I discard the affected plants as well as the medium they are growing in.

So far none of my prized breeder zinnias has been affected. But if this did happen to a breeder, I would save the genetic material by taking cuttings from the upper part of the plant. Physan 20 is the secret to success with zinnia cuttings. Otherwise soft bacterial rot kills the cuttings, much as it affects zinnia cut flower stems in vases. The technique of propagating zinnias from cuttings has been discussed in an earlier part of this multi-part message thread. I haven't seen anything in the literature to indicate that Physan 20 might be a prevention for our stem rot problem, but I haven't ruled out the possibility.

"Am I watering too much? was the Jiffy Pellet soaked too much and rotted the base? Some of the pellets were soaked when I planted my plants, I just figured they would dry out in the soil."

I recently planted a Venus Fly Trap in a Jiffy Pellet and I was impressed that the pellet was too wet and soggy. You might be watering too much. Are you watering from above, or below? Premier ProMix BX is pretty good at wicking up water from below. Also, you could use a small fan or two to help keep the surface of your growing medium dry.

I think we have both had the very same stem rot problem, although I am growing my zinnias in a Fafard growing mix because I can't find the Premier ProMix here locally yet. I plan to phone some local nurseries to see if they have any. The Fafard stuff is working fairly well for me, but it has some odd ingredients, like shredded tree bark, as well as peat type material and Perlite. It does drain well, but has essentially no nutrients, so I add everything as soluble nutrients in the water I apply. It is rather like hydroponics. The Fafard mix doesn't seem to wick well, so I, too, have been watering from above. I may try watering from below to see if the Fafard mix will work that way.

I wouldn't want this stem rot thing to become a serious problem. Stay tuned here in this message thread in case any of us come up with a positive identification for this zinnia stem rot and an effective way to deal with it.

ZM

This is a current photo of that echinacea flowered bloom that was pictured back on Sat, Feb 14, 09 at 9:24

The center has filled in, but it has aged and the petals have faded a lot. The seeds on this bloom aren't plantable yet, although the main stem bloom does have mature embryos in its green seeds.

ZM

This is a picture of a new bloom on that same hybrid zinnia plant.

I have been crossing the stigmas on the guard petals with various choice large flowered specimens. I will be curious what the hybrid offspring from this breeder look like.

ZM

I am not sure why it changed colors. I have noticed that many of my zinnia flowerheads fade as they age and eventually the petals die and become brown, while the rest of the plant continues to grow and produce new branches and new flowers. It may be that the developing embryo in each seed draws nutrients from the petal that is attached to it, much as a developing baby chick embryo draws nutrients from the contents of the egg. It is curious that the color at the petal tips and toward the base of the petal is the last to go.

ZM

Your scabiosas are interesting. I wish we could find more about scabiosa origin and development somewhere! I don't see anything to date about them in the literature! Let me see what I can find in the coming week...

Also interesting is the color pattern that flowers take on as they age. In the above case, your flowers remain pink on the tips of the petals. I saw similar results in some of my flowers as they aged last fall.

On the other hand, other flowers seem to show color in a reverse pattern as they age, as in the Swizzles--the younger swizzle is to the left below, and the older to the right:

There you can see that as the flowers age, petals of the older flowers tend to emerge more solidly red than in the younger flowers--where white-tipped petals are predominant. A subtle difference in these observations is that in your flowers you were looking at color changes in the SAME petals during the aging of the flower, while in Swizzle, we are looking at differences in new petals as the flowers age, nonetheless, we see an increase, rather than decrease in the flower pigmentation with age. Then, again,
just by looking closely at Burpee's catalog picture of "Exquisite," it seems the flowers start out red, and as they age, the outer (older) petals start losing pigmentation first. I will check that out further this summer.

As flowers age, and seeds mature, hormonal changes in the flowers cause many of their cells to die, and as moisture is lost, the seeds with embryos are able to dry down in preparation for a period of storage. Of course, in annuals, with production of seeds from the flowers, hormone feedback eventually causes death of the entire plant!

There are so many interesting observations with these flowers! Another thing of interest is that crops of seed zinnias are grown in a number of different countries. Looking at my many new seed packs, I see that seeds are produced in the U.S., France, England, Holland, Germany, Guatemala, Japan, and Tanzania! Interesting, too, is that all the new scabious zinnia seeds I have are from England, with the exception of the pastel scabious mix Park sold where seeds were produced in Holland.

JG

Your pictures showing the differences between young Swizzles and more mature blooms are quite interesting. I have seen similar effects in my Whirligigs and Zig Zags. I intend to plant some Swizzles to cross with bigger, taller zinnias.

You have zinnia seed packets from several more countries than I have, and those other sources may very well give you some zinnia specimens that we haven't seen yet.

You are right about the Burpee Exquisites. Catalog photographs and descriptions indicate that they start out as red and then as they age they lighten to rose and finally to pink. The colors all harmonize and give the effect of a mixture in a mass planting.

I have noticed that several of my hybrids exhibit various degrees of color changes as they mature. This is a picture of one that I just took that has developed an odd look due to petal color changes.

It started out as a red based light purple bicolor, and faded to yellow based lavender. It quit putting out petals for several days. Then, for some reason, it decided to put out a bunch of fresh petals, resulting in that odd color combination. At this time I don't know if that is genetic or environmental or hormonal or what. I plan to save seed from it to see if the progeny behave similarly.

ZM

Your bi-colored flower is a really nice example! I have had several zinnias do that in the past--I took a picture of one, late in the season, not nearly such a good specimen as the one you've shown above. Also, another flower that I've seen in my garden that had layers of different colors was my "July Bonnet" from last summer.

JG

"It seems that last autumn we all noted that flowers were aging differently in the autumn than they were in the summer months."

That's true. I kind of thought it might be the cooler weather that was causing that. And that may still may be the case, but I am also seeing similar effects indoors with temperatures that aren't really cool. I took this picture yesterday of a large zinnia bloom that I really like, because it has yellow and orange colors on the petals, with the lighter yellow coloring toward the base of the petals.

Many bicolors have the darker color toward the base. However, I am not sure this specimen actually is a true bicolor. But it is one of my larger blooms and I am using it as a breeder, as much for the size and loose flower form as for the colors.

ZM

I am glad that your first photo confirms the two-color phenomenon. I wish that I could pluck some of that "July Bonnet" pollen right out of the second picture. Your July Bonnet is one of the most promising specimens that I have seen from the standpoint of the potential for creating an important new strain of zinnias. I have yet to get any thing like it. I hope you get some good progeny from July Bonnet or the gene pool from which it arose.

Although the orange and yellow zinnia that I pictured above may not be a true bicolor, this specimen actually is, even though it doesn't have a lot of petal-tip color.

I have had several bicolors that had just a touch of the second color at the petal tips. I even crossed this one with the orange specimen above, and vice versa, but wondered if the two different color schemes would cancel each other out, because one is dark-based-light and the other is light-based-dark. This year should be an interesting year for our zinnias. I sure hope your July Bonnet re-appears.

ZM

This is a picture of green seeds saved from the Echinacea flowered zinnia in the picture on Sat, Mar 7, 09 at 0:30

Those seeds and green seeds from another zinnia were planted yesterday along with some Z. pauciflora and Z. peruviana. Today I planted peppers, eggplants, and tomatoes for our upcoming "Victory Garden".

ZM

Your two red-orange flowers are good-looking. In the one posted last at 17:18, are the petals yellow on the reverse side? It looks like they may be. If so, that would be a very nice trait to continue, if possible. By the way, is Z. pauciflora the same species as peruviana, or is it different in some way?

You are really moving along with shortening your generation time, as seen in the green seeds! One day, I may try the same, but this year, I am concentrating on enlarging my beds and just studying the offspring resulting from last year's crosses. Probably in mid-April or so, I will start some of the seeds I am very anxious to get going under lights in the house. Some of the crosses resulted in so few seeds, I want to be extremely careful to optimize my chances of getting offspring. And, I am worried a little that open pollination may have occurred despite the nets, and maybe I will be looking at crosses that were unintended...we will see!

I have been moving dead vegetation from my perennial garden beds and then also sowing a row of poppies next to where my annual orange cosmos will no doubt reseed themselves. In the next few days, will plant a small bed of romaine lettuce and a row of peas. Will put some short sweet pea (flower) seeds in our whiskey barrel on the patio.

For awhile my interest was in amplifying seeds and the growing out of heirloom (dry) pole beans. I have about 50 different varieties and will plant maybe ten kinds this year from my aging seed inventory. I also have a small collection of heirloom tomato seeds I will grow out-maybe a total of ten plants (that may be an inflated number--I easily fall behind the necessary staking and pruning of tomato plants!) Cabin fever is setting in, and I can't wait to get started with gardening! Your victory garden sounds good -- ratatouille in the making!

JG

I got my seed from Fedco today and they included a letter telling that their recent sales have been phenomenal. They attribute it to the economy and more people wanting to grow their own. They foresee many popular varieties selling out.
We once discussed zinnia varieties with a fragrance. I'm hoping not to have to search for edible ones.

I had wondered if any of you dabble in other species. This year I'm growing early greens and peas with the intention of using that same space later for zinnias.
Other than zinnias, my best '08 luck was with tiny tomatoes. All of my plants came from one tiny guitar-shaped fruit that I rescued from a salad bar. Not one plant gave me anything other than oval pinkie nail sized fruit borne in clusters. It is the perfect snack while working in the garden.

"In the one posted last at 17:18, are the petals yellow on the reverse side? It looks like they may be."

In the picture, it looks like the reverse sides are pretty good, but that picture was made a couple of weeks ago and those particular petals are now maturing some green seeds and they now have a regular green-veined appearance on their reverse sides. However, that plant now has two side-branch blooms opening, and their petal reverse sides are unusually non-green-veined, with a neutral ivory color and, when the light is right, some yellow shows through from the front side. That isn't typical of zinnia petal backsides. Apparently there is some difference in the appearance of petal backsides, but so far the good looks apply only to juvenile petals and don't persist as the petals mature. In the past I have had juvenile petals that were pretty close to pure white but, as they aged, a green vein structure developed.

"By the way, is Z. pauciflora the same species as peruviana, or is it different in some way?"

Good question. I hope that pauciflora and peruviana are different, but at this moment I am not sure. I hope that pauciflora is tenuifolia. I purchased both Z. peruviana and Z. pauciflora from Jefferson Monticello and planted them a couple of days ago and now several are emerging, so they are quick to germinate. The seeds looked quite similar, about halfway between a "regular" zinnia and a marigold, being rather long and skinny. I was wondering if Z. pauciflora was the same as Z. tenuifolia but right now I am unsure. Apparently Jefferson Monticello thinks their pauciflora and peruviana are different, because they came in separate labeled seed packets (which, incidentally, were shipped separately). Your photos, back on Sun, Jan 11, 09 at 15:36 in Part 8, demonstrate clearly that tenuifolia and peruviana are different. Right now I am hoping that pauciflora is the same as tenuifolia, because I would like to think that I have two different species of seedlings just emerged. This is still a learning experience for me.

"Probably in mid-April or so, I will start some of the seeds I am very anxious to get going under lights in the house. Some of the crosses resulted in so few seeds, I want to be extremely careful to optimize my chances of getting offspring."

Even during mild weather, I also start my critical seeds inside, where I think they have a better chance of getting started. It is really annoying to have a potentially interesting hand-pollinated hybrid seedling cut down by a cutworm or some other outdoor hazard. Once again, here in Kansas, I plan to make some zinnia cages (half-height tomato cages) from concrete re-mesh wire, to help protect some of my breeder zinnias from high winds and accidental damage from running dogs and squirrels.

ZM

Sometimes, when you cross scabiosa flowered zinnias with large flowered zinnias, you get unusual petals instead of the scabiosa-type florets:

I am not wild about this effect, but I save seeds from them in case they produce something better or more interesting.

ZM

The mere fact that you are growing peppers, tomatoes, eggplant, daisies, and basil in the same tray with no problems indicates that you must be doing something right. It does sound like your zinnias are suffering from damping off, although it is curious that only they would be affected. It has been several years since I lost a zinnia seedling to damping off, or any other seedling for that matter. I think that peppers, tomatoes, and eggplants are susceptible to damping off. I don't know about the daisies and basil. You asked if your zinnia seed might be contaminated. I suppose that is a possibility. Are your zinnia seeds commercial, or did you save them yourself?

This picture of my seedlings was taken a few minutes ago.

I plant a single seed in each 2½-inch square pot. I will be repotting several of those into larger pots tomorrow. I have some zinnia hybrids in there from crosses that I pollinated in January of this year, along with some commercial peppers, eggplants, and tomatoes. I have a few of the new Burpee seedless tomatoes that I am trying this year.

ZM

I have never used the Burpee Ultimate Growing System, but it should be good, and actually better than what I am using. I have to remember to water every few days and, if I forget, the seedlings suffer. The Burpee self watering system uses a wicking mat which should be self limiting and just keep the bottoms of the pots moist.

But, are your seedlings still under the humidity dome? That could be the problem. I usually take them out from under the humidity dome as soon as they emerge. If the seedlings are too short, sometimes I leave them under the dome a day or two to let them stretch a little before removing them. When you re-pot a seedling with a longer stem, you can submerge it in potting medium.

Otherwise, unless there is something terribly wrong with the lighting or the growing medium or the water you are using, your setup should work just fine. Did the Burpee system come with its own seed starting medium? What lighting are you using? What are you using for water? I am using town tap water, which is both chlorinated and fluoridated.

I can't do anything about the fluoridation, but I filter the tap water through a PUR filter to remove the chlorine (and possibly some other bad things). The PUR filter deliberately passes the fluorides for dental health. When we lived in Maine, I used melted snow for my plants, and that worked really well. Later I used some rain water from the gutter, but the roof usually had enough stuff on it so that the rain water wasn't that pure, so I switched to our well water, which wasn't too bad.

The Burpee system should work really well for zinnias and for most things after we find out what went wrong.

ZM

Thanks again for your expertise, I really appreciate you taking your time to help me figure this out!

BTW, I haven't lost any more seedlings today. The Envy were definitely harder hit than the Fruit Smoothie mix.

Andrea

"I removed the dome from them a day after they sprouted. But, I didn't put them under lights right away, because I was waiting for the peppers and eggplants to sprout first."

I think that you should have put them under lights the day you planted them. I start all of my seeds under a humidity dome with the lights on, for 16 hours a day. I would make an exception for seeds that specifically require darkness for germination, but as far as I know peppers and eggplants germinate just fine in the light.

"But, after a couple of days the zinnia seedlings were starting to bolt, so I put them under the lights."

Starting to bolt was not good for them. That may have had something to do with the conditions that were conducive to damping off. In order to make it hard on the organisms responsible for damping off, lower the fluorescent tubes to within 2 or 3 inches from the seedlings and direct a breeze from a small electric fan on them. The air circulation will dry the surface of the growing medium and "exercise" the seedlings, giving them thicker stems. Be sure they get plenty of water from below, because the breeze does have a drying effect.

"I use a shop light fitted with a cool and a warm fluorescent bulb."

Seedlings prefer the cool light. A couple of 6500°K cool white fluorescent bulbs would be more to their liking. The warm part of the spectrum isn't needed until the flowering/fruiting stage. I have raised zinnias from seed to seed under just 6500°K bulbs, which are a very cool white. If you give a seedling a choice between a cool white and a warm white, it will lean distinctly toward the cool white.

"I am using tap water, maybe I should filter it?"

You should if it is chlorinated. Chlorine isn't good for plants. They can use a trace of chloride ions, but that is a different thing, and chloride deficiency is very rare because a trace of it exists nearly everywhere.

"The thing is, I thought zinnias were supposed to be easy to grow!"

They are easy to grow. Once you make a few adjustments to your cultural practices, zinnias will be very easy for you.

"Oh, I also have a heating mat under the growing system, mainly because peppers and eggplants need it. Could that be a problem??"

Probably not. I use a heating mat to help speed up germination in a cool room, such as in the area of our basement. But you don't need a heating mat in most interior rooms when the fluorescent lights are fairly close to the humidity dome. Heat tends to build up under an enclosed dome.

"I usually only grow tomatoes (I have over 1000 varieties), and am pretty much clueless about anything else!"

Over 1000 varieties! You must have them all. I knew there were a lot of varieties of tomatoes, counting all of the heirlooms whose seeds are saved and traded by tomato enthusiasts. But I wouldn't have guessed 1000.

However, zinnia culture isn't that different from tomato culture. You can grow tomatoes from cuttings and you can grow zinnias from cuttings. You can grow tomatoes in cages and I grow my prized "breeders" in modified tomato cages, as you can see in this picture.

I refer to those as zinnia cages. (That zinnia also enjoyed the benefits of a "Water Spike" attached to a 2-liter soft drink bottle.) I make the zinnia cages from concrete reinforcement wire (remesh), using the same techniques that I use for my tomato cages. The zinnia cages are half the height of my tomato cages and smaller in diameter. The zinnia cage in that picture was made by cutting a surplus 5-foot tomato cage in two to make two zinnia cages. Those cages help protect my special breeder zinnias from inadvertent damage from high winds and running animals such as dogs, cats, and squirrels.

ZM

Occasionally a zinnia that first impresses me as a reject kind of grows on me and I relent and designate it as a breeder, such as this one:

Normally I want the petals to be well separated to allow a lot of "air" into the bloom, but this specimen has a fairly large almost ball-like shape, with a lot of substance. It now has three blooms on the plant, two of which are faded and senescent. I think I will start pollinating its current bloom to see what comes from this zinnia.

ZM

Your flowers are gorgeous as always! The form (not color)
of that last one reminds me of that which I saw on a number of Peppermint Stick-like zinnias I got from Rich Farms.

I had mentioned earlier that I would try and find something about the origin and development of the scabious form of zinnias. I questioned several sources, and from Andrew Tokely, the Horticultural Manager of Thompson and Morgan, I found that "The Scabious Flowered Zinnia was achieved by Selective breeding over a number of Years.
Excellent forms of this have been bred over the years mainly in Holland , Poland and the Chec [Czech] Republic."

On (outdoor) zinnia pollination, Dr. Stimart writes, "It is my understanding they can be wind pollinated to some extent, but the major is by various insects. I would bag the heads so as to exclude pollen completely."

Thanks so much to the above sources for their help on questions we might share...

Well, indoor planting time is coming soon! Outdoors, my peas, poppies, and lettuce are just beginning to emerge.

JG

I questioned several sources, and from Andrew Tokely, the Horticultural Manager of Thompson and Morgan, I found that "The Scabious Flowered Zinnia was achieved by Selective breeding over a number of Years. Excellent forms of this have been bred over the years mainly in Holland, Poland, and the Chec [Czech] Republic."

Many thanks for digging up that information. Your scholarship is much appreciated. I still wonder if one or more mutations didn't play a part in the origin of the scabiosa flowered zinnias, but Boyle and Stimart didn't seem to go into that, except to note that their florets were different.

One of my Aztec Sunsets exhibits an unusually compact plant habit. This picture is approximately 130% life size on my screen.

When the plant first showed unusually short growth, I surmized that I had accidentally over-dosed it with plant growth regulator and resolved not to give it any more PGR and I didn't. However, the plant never "came out of it" and it has a plant habit comparable to the Thumbelinas and Zinnitas. Needless to say, I am using it as a female for cross pollination with my larger breeders in an attempt to get interspecific hybrids involving it.

ZM

That particular Aztec Sunset has lemon yellow tips on medium purple petals. I don't know what the picture looks like on your screen, but the colors are fairly accurate on my screen. The lemon yellow may appear a touch greenish because this picture was taken within a foot or so of a bunch of green zinnia foliage. The principle of radiosity says that every illuminated object becomes a secondary light source. But I didn't notice a greenish caste to the light on this picture. It was a mix of cool white fluorescent light from the plant stand and incandescent room light.

But, regardless of the appearances in the picture, that plant's colors are not unusual in Aztec Sunsets or Persian Carpets. Those colors would be somewhat unique in a large zinnia bloom. I do find it a bit odd that I got a possibly rare plant habit mutation out of only about half a dozen Aztec Sunset plants. Maybe the plant growth regulator is responsible. I hope I get some viable seeds from that plant.

ZM

With respect to the development of scabious zinnias, I am sure that mutation(s) did play a role, and an interested breeder took notice, then cross-bred those mutated plants until he got pure-breeding plants with that phenotype-- just as you would like to do with the threesies plants.

That Aztec Sunset is really nice with the compact habit and all the flowers! What a nice plant for containers that would be! My plants were crowded into a small place, and although they did produce a lot of flowers, I really didn't observe that kind of habit. I truly hope all of us can get those intraspecific hybrids! That could lead to some very interesting plants.

JG

JG

Maybe you are right about those colors. Upon looking at that picture on my monitor in reduced room light tonight, I notice that the picture does have a bluish caste, which interacts with the lemon yellow tips to give them a slightly yellow-green look. And I noticed a few hours ago that the plant in the plant stand also has a slightly yellow-green look to its lemon yellow petals. Some of that blue color may have crept in during the post processing stage of the picture. However, all of my fluorescent bulbs are rated at 6500°K, which is a bit on the bluish side. As far as I know, the digital camera I am using (Kodak Z712 IS) does not have a white balance adjustment, but I will re-check its user manual.

ZM

I think we are in total agreement about the origin(s) of the scabiosa flowered zinnias. It may be before your time, but there was a large crested zinnia strain named Howard's Crested Zinnias that went extinct a few decades ago. Like Parks' Pastel Scabious strain, it didn't maintain its purity in field-grown conditions.

"That Aztec Sunset is really nice with the compact habit and all the flowers! What a nice plant for containers that would be!"

It would be nice for containers. Its compact plant habit may be unusual for Aztec Sunsets (and Persian Carpets), but there are several zinnia strains that have a comparable plant habit, including Zinnitas and Thumbelinas.

My two-tone echinacea flowered specimen continues to develop and produce seeds. Its code name is C6.

That plant is proving to be rather floriferous and it has been a source of quite a few mature green seeds. Its central bloom matured completely with a dead stem and brown flower parts and I harvested it yesterday. It had already produced a good crop of petal seeds and the central seedhead yielded a number of floret seeds as well. I really like this specimen as a potential source of even better echinacea flowered specimens, but past experience warns me that 90 to 95 percent of its progeny will be single rejects. I guess those odds are no worse than playing a slot machine.

ZM

Incidentally, with respect to that blue color cast: It hasn't gone away entirely, because the wall behind those zinnias above is a warm white, rather than a cool white. At this moment, I am not certain how to deal with the color cast. But, thanks to you, I am now aware of the problem.

ZM

"The principle of radiousity says that every illuminated object becomes a secondary light source."
That's why we should surround ourselves with exceptional people.

"What was your source for 'Aztec Sunset' seed?"

I got mine from Parks, although several other seed companies offer the strain.

ZM

C6 definitely has colors I've not seen in scabious-related zinnias. I think you said earlier it had some whirligig genes in it. It's pretty!

The plant itself looks extremely healthy. It seems you definitely have indoor zinnia culture perfected (or at least, close to---!)

(Have you gotten a new camera?)

JG

I wasn't aware that my Parks Aztec Sunsets had been discontinued. Parks has discontinued several zinnias, including an extra tall strain, that could grow 5 feet tall and up. Oh well.

I checked on alternate sources and found that Territorial Seeds offers Aztec Sunset. The surprise for me there was in the description, where they said, "At 6-10 inches, the compact, ultra-floriferous plants are fantastic in beds and containers. Rightfully awarded a 2007 Fleuroselect gold medal." If that is correct, then my "mutant" which I pictured above, was the only on-type plant in the group of Aztec Sunsets from Parks that I just grew. The plant habit for Persian Carpets is described as 24 to 28 inches high, which is completely different from the 6 to 10 inch height of Aztec Sunset. Until only a few minutes ago, I had no idea that Persian Carpets and Aztec Sunsets had completely different plant habits.

Thompson & Morgan originated Aztec Sunset, so they should be a reliable source. They list its plant height as 10 inches, which is consistent with the Territorial description. Their online price of 200 seeds for $2.95 seems reasonable enough, although I don't know what the shipping cost would be for that. I can see how that the shipping cost could easily exceed $2.95 because some companies have a minimum shipping & handling cost. However, some garden centers have Thompson & Morgan seed racks, so you might be able to buy a packet of Aztec Sunsets locally. Or you may prefer your 28-inch Persian Carpets to the 10-inch Aztec Sunsets and just skip the Aztec Sunsets. My next planting of zinnias of this type will be Persian Carpets.

The near black purple with white tips of some Persian Carpets would look spectacular in a large cactus flowered or spider flowered zinnia. And Persian Carpets have a well branched plant habit, with the possibility of an improved plant form in the hybrids.

ZM

I am still using the same Kodak Z712 IS camera, usually in its "Flower" mode. The lighting was high key in some of the recent photos, instead of the low-key chiaroscuro lighting that I have a quirky preference for. I still intend to get my very own digital SLR camera, but not until I see what the next releases from Nikon will be.

I have made a lot of progress in my indoor zinnia growing techniques, and my present indoor project gives me a lot of pleasure and satisfaction. But I think there is still room for improvement. I need a finer touch in my use of plant growth regulators and I am considering the use of HID lighting for some of my larger plants this coming Winter.

I am also concerned that the use of municipal tap water, even after filtering the chlorine out of it, can cause a build up of salts in my growing medium. They say you shouldn't top-water zinnias, but bottom watering seems to give a build-up of salts, while top watering can tend to flush out some of the excess salts.

I am going to look into the costs of filtering everything out of the municipal water. If I were just growing a few African Violets, I would use one-gallon jugs of distilled water from the grocery store, but that isn't practical for my zinnia project. At least, when I transition to outdoor gardening, rains will be helpful.

ZM

I wonder if you get enough rain out there to consider getting one or more rain barrels, and then saving the rain? With used milk jugs, you may be able to bottle lots of rain water for indoor use! Just a thought......

I asked about your camera, because it did look like you had several types of photos in the past weeks.

Can't wait to start gardening with zinnias...the time is coming soon!

JG

After I ran out of snow to make snow water in Maine, I gathered some rain water in big buckets under the rain gutter. I had to filter out a lot of stuff that was in it from the roof, the bulkiest part being scales from tree buds, oak pollen parts, and other Spring treefall. What didn't filter out (I was using a fish tank dip net for my "filter") was whatever bird poop and squirrel poop had been deposited on the roof before the rain. I soon became squeamish about using roof water and switched to well water, which had its own problems.

The roof here doesn't look too contaminated, so I may catch some roof water to see what it looks like. I could use it outside, but I doubt that I will want to bring it into the house. My outdoor zinnias will have to get by with city water and rain. My indoor zinnias will continue to drink filtered tap water. (I drink "green top" no-sodium drinking water that comes from Walmart in gallon jugs.)

It isn't nearly as rainy here as it was in Maine. Maine was virtually a cool rainforest. I usually didn't have to use the garden hose more than once or twice a season there.

"Can't wait to start gardening with zinnias...the time is coming soon!"

It will be at least a month before I take the gamble here. It's not just a matter of not having a killing frost, but of having reasonably un-cold ground temperatures. Today was sunny and 65 with a lot of people out in their yards doing "Spring" things. I did some tree pruning. But tomorrow's high is 15 degrees cooler, cloudy and rainy. A garden indoors day for me. I think it is going to be a couple of weeks before this area "breaks through" into something resembling actual sustained Spring weather. I guess in Kansas it's not Spring until the tornadoes show up (grin, sort of).

ZM

Even though T&M's picture of Aztec Sunset isn't impressive, their seeds are probably the same as Territorial's. Although I have never purchased from them, Sunrise Seeds offers Aztec Sunset. So does Hazzard's Wholesale Seeds, although they sell larger quantities. Don't know the shipping charges of those suppliers either. The $8 charge at Territoral seems very high, but perhaps that is a minimum. I'll keep that in mind when I compose an online order with them and, if my total order shipping cost seems too high, I will abort the order. I've done that before with other online orders.

The "spoony spider" daisy looks great. I would love to have a zinnia mutant show up that looked like that. It looks like something that zinnias could do.

ZM

I think the spoon look is different, too. Remember my spoon zinnia from last summer? Well, it wasn't quite so defined.......

I do like the "spoon spider" mentioned by HC!

I see a listing for Aztec Sunsets in the HPS catalog, but the shipping is $7.95. I was suffering from shipping costs earlier this year, too. Anyway, in addition to shipping they want $5.50 for 250 seeds, and 9.95 for 500 seeds. They look very much like the Persian Carpets I had in my garden last summer.

HPS Aztec Sunset Zinnias

JG

I really think that it would be possible to breed a strain of zinnias that looked like the Flower Power™ Spider Cream African daisy. Unfortunately, I have discarded all of my spooned specimens and many of my "pinched petal" specimens that looked like this one:

But now that the concept is in our heads, I think we can just keep our eyes open for the genetic components needed to assemble some zinnias with that look. Incidentally, the Flower Power™ African daisies are sold as plants, which makes me suspect that they are asexually propagated, and not true from seed.

More later. I have been busy re-potting zinnia seedlings.

ZM

It looks like I may have my second generation coming into bloom while my first generation is continuing to bloom and ripen green seeds. The green-seed technique is paying off.

That brings up an interesting difference in zinnias. I have noticed that some zinnias become senescent and succumb after setting a few seedheads, while others continue to branch and re-branch and produce an ever increasing number of flowerheads and seedheads. Perhaps that is environmental, but I suspect that a genetic factor or factors are involved.

ZM

I have a question though, on the flowers where you use the stigmas, where are the pollens? Do you cut them off? Do they come later than the stigmas? Do you/I have to worry about self pollination?

TIA! I guess we are all getting ready for the new season. :-)

"I have a question though, on the flowers where you use the stigmas, where are the pollens? Do you cut them off? Do they come later than the stigmas? Do you/I have to worry about self pollination?

Self pollination of a choice breeder is not necessarily a bad thing. But some zinnias don't have any pollen at all, or very little, and they are "natural" females. If a breeder does put out a few pollen florets, I usually use them to pollinate other breeders, or I may deliberately use them to self that breeder. If a zinnia produces a really large excess of pollen florets, I don't like that and it is disqualified from breeder status based on that. I may remove that plant to make room for a replacement, or just to give the nearby zinnias more room. Very, very seldom do I waste any time emasculating a zinnia. Outdoors I use nets to keep bees from stealing choice pollen and also to keep them from randomly pollinating my breeders. I also use the nets to protect my setting seeds from seed-eating birds.

The rules are a little different for the scabiosa flowered zinnias. There is frequently only one row or two of "guard" petals, and their stigmas are naturally female. The central florets can be interestingly ambiguous. Some specimens present stigmas in the florets and I frequently pollinate them as if they were petal stigmas. The later florets usually self themselves to produce floret seeds and I sometimes get pollen from them to pollinate other zinnias. This picture shows a recent bloom from an echinacea flowered hybrid that has continued to bloom while also setting seeds in older flowers on other branches.

I also have progeny from this same plant (code named C6) that are now budding. And I also planted some seeds from it today. Many of its progeny were cross-pollinated with other breeders to hopefully "upgrade" it. Many will probably be single rejects. In any case, it will be interesting to see what the blooms from the new generation of hybrid zinnias will look like. I enjoy that suspense.

ZM

Is this the Zinnia Anatomy link you are referring to? It was in Part 5, on Fri, Jul 11, 08 at 1:53

ZM

Also, I am seeing many seedlings in my zinnia patch from last year, so although I started late last year, maybe some of the flowers did set seeds and some of them are germinating now. The frost next couple of days might kill them though.

I had several volunteer zinnias last year and one of them qualified as a scabiosa hybrid breeder. It had survived weeks of single digit temperatures, frozen rock solid. Volunteers have already demonstrated a kind of hardiness that could be useful. I haven't put any plants out yet, but we may have had our last killing frost and I think I will be putting a few tomato plants out tomorrow or the next day, with perhaps a few zinnias to keep them company.

ZM

now slightly out of topic:
Have you read about tomatoes and marigolds? The marigolds would repel insects but also make the tomato grow better. I don't remember what the reason was (but it is technical and scientific, not just tales).

The reason I am asking is because I happen to grow some marigold last year and have hundreds or over thousands of marigold seeds. If you want some, I can send you some. I think the recommendation is 3-4 marigolads surrounding each tomato.

Thanks!

I haven't grown tomatoes in Kansas yet, but previously my tomatoes have done OK in the absence of marigolds. In Texas, my marigolds were unable to protect themselves, and fell victim to a red spider epidemic. My main tomato problem is tomato hornworms, and I hand pick them. I won't need the marigold seeds, but thanks for the offer anyway.

ZM

"My question, given that I live in Houston and it's already hot...have I waited too long to grow them from seeds? "

No, you have not waited too long. You should have plenty of time to plant zinnias, including Zaharas, in your long growing season. Given enough water and nutrients and sun, zinnias can stand the heat and they grow fast. In fact, you should be able to make several staggered plantings of zinnias, some now, some a few weeks later, and so on, until a final planting for Fall bloom. One "secret" to good looking late season zinnias is a late planting for a Fall crop. Young zinnias have a lot of natural disease resistance.

ZM

I have read with interest these related threads and have been motivated to plant quite a few zinnias this year. I got a bit of a late start, but I'll make the best of it! I am fortunate to have a long growing season, so that will help.

What prompted my post is the discovery of several abnormal seedlings in one particular row. This closely planted row is all seed from one particular flower head collected in 2007 and labeled orange single. I am not certain of its exact origin, though I know tht year I planted a State Fair mix as well as a Pastel Dreams mix from Seeds of Change. My guess would be the tetraploid State Fair mix....but that just decreases the odds of something like this showing up, doesn't it?

This row has 82 seedlings germinated and 4 have the completely yellow cotyledons. Because of the total lack of chlorophyll, I imagine they are not long for this world. Has anyone seen this in their seedlots?

This last picture shows the seed coat still attached. - Arlan

"This row has 82 seedlings germinated and 4 have the completely yellow cotyledons. Because of the total lack of chlorophyll, I imagine they are not long for this world. Has anyone seen this in their seedlots?"

I have seen an occasional albino (completely white) and an occasional yellow seedling, but never with your frequency of 4 in 82 seedlings. My guess is that there is something genetically different about that row of seedlings. You may see some interesting variations in their flowers.

Without chlorophyll, they won't live long. You could try to keep them on life support by swabbing a dilute sugar solution on their leaves. You can foliar feed sugar. Right off hand, I can't think of any good reason for doing that, other than the spirit of experimentation. If sugar feeding got them to the bloom stage, what would the blooms look like? And, if they set seeds, who knows what the seedlings would be like?

ZM

Since this message thread is becoming rather long and slow to load, we are continuing this discussion over in
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 10. See you all over there.

ZM

We welcome your participation in the zinnia hobby. As a rose breeder you will find that zinnia breeding works in much the same way, only much faster. Zinnias are sort of the "fruit flies" of the floral kingdom.

As you may have noticed, each thread in this series begins with a link to the previous thread and ends with a link to the next thread in the series. This is sort of the middle of the series. So there is lots of previous information and lots of information coming after this point.

ZM