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It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Posted by zenman Kansas 5b (My Page) on
Mon, Mar 10, 14 at 14:36

Hello, everyone,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 23, has become rather long and slow to load or read, so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. Now that Spring is upon us, we can start planning and preparing for our zinnia gardens. As always, if you have any related pictures, you are invited to post them.

As I indicated in a previous message, I was hoping that my "ugly duckling" star-pointed white mutant zinnia had the possibility for turning into "a beautiful swan", and this current indoor specimen gives me encouragement about that.

I like to experiment with new things, and since this forum limits our picture sizes to no more than 550 pixels wide, I have modified that picture so that if you click on it, a new window should open with a larger version of that picture. You can make that picture look a little better by hitting your F11 function key on a Windows system to hide the browser stuff at the top of the picture. (I am not sure what key you should hit on a Mac -- maybe F11.) You can "undo" the F11 key by hitting it again, and you can close that window by clicking on the "X" in the upper right-hand corner. Another way to exit that big picture is to push your mouse pointer to the top of the picture, which will bring down some of your browser controls, which will let you close the window without re-using the F11 key. That should return you back to here. My 1280 x 1024 Sony monitor is not particularly large, so let me know how this scheme is working on your monitors.

Back to that zinnia. This specimen is a hybrid between a tubular specimen and the star-tipped mutant, and it gets a "modernized" look on its petal tips. I think it has possibilities for F2 recombinance in its offspring. More later.

ZM

This post was edited by zenman on Thu, Mar 27, 14 at 21:20


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM,
Thanks for the latest installment of HTML 101, that you included in the last forum entry. Let's see...how about some green?
This has definite possibilities!

I like the accessing photobucket for the larger pics. Are you having to add something else to the code they provide to enable it to be "clickable"? Or is that embedded already? I should go test those pics I put up before...
- Alex
Just tested it, and got the answer to my question: it's already embedded in the code. I was able to click on my last two pics that are at photobucket and they come up the actual size.

This post was edited by samhain10 on Mon, Mar 10, 14 at 18:39


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

I think we are going well beyond HTML 101 here. You are a very quick study and you have used some advanced links to get photos embedded in your message.

"Are you having to add something else to the code they provide to enable it to be "clickable"? Or is that embedded already? ... Just tested it, and got the answer to my question: it's already embedded in the code. I was able to click on my last two pics that are at photobucket and they come up the actual size."

Yes, your HTML does provide direct access to your Photobucket page, so your pictures, like the pictures from some of the other participants, can be clicked on for a larger version. None of my pictures in Part 23 are "clickable". Your photo links are of the form:

[a href="http://s1205.photobucket.com/user/samhain2/media/Garden pics/pre-germinatingeggplantsandpeppers2_zpsda547a31.jpg.html" target="_blank"] [img src="http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb429/samhain2/Garden pics/pre-germinatingeggplantsandpeppers2_zpsda547a31.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo pre-germinatingeggplantsandpeppers2_zpsda547a31.jpg"/][/a]

My photo link above is of the form:

[a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/MaineMan/DSC0485-1000x800_zpsd76a3904.jpg" target="_blank"] [img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/MaineMan/550 Garden Web/_DSC0485_DxO_zpsfb545d3e.jpg"][/a]

Both of our links consist of a hyperlink to Photobucket using an image as the "button" that you click on to activate the link. But the difference between our links is that you hyperlink to a page in Photobucket that contains the image, while I hyperlink to just the image itself.

So when we click on your embedded photo we open a window to your Photobucket page, while when we click on my embedded photo we open a window to just my image, which I consider to be preferable.

But, your method does have one important advantage -- you use the same image to get your "button" image as the image itself, allowing GardenWeb to shrink it down to 550 pixels wide. While my method requires two separate images -- a 550 pixel wide image for the embedded "button" and a 1000 x 800 pixel image to fill the image window that opens when you click the "button" image.

My entry level Nikon D3200 SLR takes pictures that are quite large, namely 6016 x 4000 pixels, so I reduce those in size a lot even for my 1000 x 800 "large" images. And I also do the reduction to 550 pixels wide, rather than let GardenWeb do it, so that I will have some control over how it is done.

The mere fact that our discussion of HTML has gotten this detailed is evidence of how far you have come in such a short time HTML-wise. I am impressed. More later.

ZM


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It can be fun to breed your own zinnias...

Well, Man formerly from Maine,
Honestly, you can't give me too much credit. I just pick up a little here and there. Previously, I'd been posting my pics through Garden web's system, accessing directly from my computer - no code involved from my end to bother my pretty little head. :) Unfortunately, this only allowed me to post one at a time, and I wondered how people were doing the multiple pics, but never bothered to look into it. I did already have a photobucket account, however, thanks to the fact that I was until recently involved with another site that I needed it for - we have cats, you see - and so I knew about the box on the photobucket page that has the codes. On the other site, we were prompted to use the direct link, but I think I, in my usual logical way - or woman's intuition, take your pick - chose the one that said HTML. Should I use the direct or one of the others? BTW, I have a Nikon DX40 SLR myself, which, until recently, I have been too lazy (or intimidated by technology - again, take your pick) to learn how to operate in any fashion other than automatic, point and shoot. Now, thanks to a couple of friends, I am shooting manually RAW, and have invested in Photoshop Elements 12 to up my editing skills. I actually have taken some fairly good pics, of which you have not seen any - Ha!
BTW2 - Samhain is the name of my black cat. One of them...
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Had to go test the direct link ...but I see it didn't work when I previewed it. Anyway, here's a view of the path leading to the garden. This was taken in December, so the snow is actually deeper now. Those are animal tracks, not people tracks in the foreground.  photo pathtothecorral_zps9121a2d1.jpg


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

I gotta say, that is a beautiful snow scene. That fence must have a history. Is it supposed to be deer-proof? And do you have any idea what kind of animal left those tracks? Based on what I could see in that photo, your garden must be impressive. It looks like you have enough space to do some serious zinnia breeding.

It is a kind of numbers game, you know. You can make good progress by saving seeds from the best zinnia out of a dozen plants, but if you save seeds from the best zinnia out of a thousand plants, it's a whole new ball game, and your progress can be spectacular.

"Samhain is the name of my black cat. One of them... "

Didn't know that. I remember calling you "Sam" in some of my earlier messages. I must say, that is an unusual name for a cat. Before I retired, one of my co-workers had a cat named after the capital of Nepal in the Himalayas, Katmandu. He was a huge cat, and I think they may have spelled his name as "Cat-Man-Do".

"I have a Nikon DX40 SLR myself, ... I am shooting manually RAW, and have invested in Photoshop Elements 12 to up my editing skills."

Photoshop Elements is a good choice. Many of the capabilities of Photoshop, without the exorbitant price. I also shoot Raw, for the maximum photo detail it offers. I do have and use an older version of Photoshop, CS3 Extended. I pre-process my images using a software product called DxO Optics Pro 9. It has some unbelievable abilities for recovering detail from RAW images. There is a Standard edition, which I use because I don't have a pro-grade camera. High-end cameras need the more expensive Elite edition. The Standard edition would also support your Nikon D40X and any lenses you have for it. DxO supports most cameras and lenses.

I use DxO Optics Pro to convert my NEF files to 16-bit TIF files, with a lot of image improvement occurring in the conversion. They have a fully functional 30-day trial version that you might want to take a look at. DxO has incomparable specific hardware support for individual cameras and lenses, which makes them unique.

While we are on the subject of photographic software, I should mention the Topaz Labs plug-ins for Photoshop compatible software. They, too, have 30-day trial versions and some of their plug-ins can be quite handy. I routinely use their DeNoise plugin to continue even beyond the noise reduction in DxO Optics Pro, and their Detail plug-in to make subtle improvements in image detail. Their Adjust plug-in offers a virtual Swiss Army knife of image adjustments. I wound up buying their complete suite of plug-ins, although I use some of them very rarely.

Well, I have gotten a bit off-topic, but photography is a handy tool to help with zinnia breeding and gardening in general. I am thinking of starting a scrapbook of photos involving my gardening activities -- with emphasis on my zinnias. I have a color printer that could provide a lot of material for the scrapbook.

More later.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM,
That fence must have a history. Is it supposed to be deer-proof?

Yes, we extended the existing corral fence to deer and rabbit proof. It was necessary to put chicken wire along the bottom for the rabbits. What it doesn't keep out, unfortunately, is the raccoons and the squirrels. It did keep out the raccoons for awhile until they figured out they could simply climb up the posts. There's a technique of putting the chicken wire up with a loose roll at the top - hard to describe - it's supposed to discourage them - we did that, but they still got around it. Consequently, I gave up growing corn, the one thing they really loved. I miss that - nothing like picking your own home-grown, plus I liked the sound and smell of the plants - something special. Oh, as for the squirrels, the feral cats pretty well keep them under control.

And speaking of cats:
I must say, that is an unusual name for a cat.

Samhain (we pronounce it "sow -in" - sow like a pig, though I've read of different pronunciations) got her name because she showed up on the eve of Halloween, Samhain being the pagan Celtic equivalent of Halloween - that is, All Hallows Eve - the day before All Saints Day. And she's a black cat. Nothing too remarkable about that, though, as a great many of the ferals in our area are blacks. Descendants, no doubt, of farm cats abandoned decades back when the farms all started to disappear.

As for all the rest - I'll file the info away for future reference, but you and Telescody and friends are more tech-savvy than I'll ever be. Mostly I learn this stuff when I am forced to in the course of some other interest - ha!
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

" What it doesn't keep out, unfortunately, is the raccoons and the squirrels. It did keep out the raccoons for awhile until they figured out they could simply climb up the posts. There's a technique of putting the chicken wire up with a loose roll at the top - hard to describe - it's supposed to discourage them - we did that, but they still got around it. Consequently, I gave up growing corn..."

I had a similar experience in Maine, only nothing could keep our squirrel population under control, so they were the main destroyers of my corn. The squirrels ate essentially all of my corn except the stalks. They would remove an ear, carry it to a nearby stump, and have a meal, leaving mostly just shucks and bits of cob. The raccoons and groundhogs also participated in the destruction, but they were just minor players. Fortunately my zinnias didn't attract any of the local wildlife, except the seed eating birds, which I could deal with using simple "hairnets" on my seedheads.

I was going to suggest adding an electric fence component to your fence, and that might have deterred the raccoons, but squirrels can jump impressively and I seriously doubt that an electric fence would have been a deterrent for them. Many years (decades) ago, when we lived in Fort Worth, I grew some incredible sweet corn in our back yard, and all I had to worry about was corn earworms, which I did a reasonable job of controlling with BT spray on the silks.

Since I now have the "technology" to show larger pictures of my zinnias, I am going to re-show a few pictures of last year's breeders that indicate the direction I am heading with the tubular petals. As before, click on the picture to open it in a new window and use F11 to "clean up" that window.

The star-tipped mutant did not participate in the petal ends on last year's breeders, but genes from Whirligigs and "toothy" specimens could have, since they were in the "mix".

The petal ends on this next one were very likely contributed by scabious genes, since it had scabiosa-flowered parentage.

I can hardly wait this year to bring together a mix of "toothy", "scabious", "star-tipped", and "tubular" genes, just to see what they can produce by mutual collaboration. I believe that this year is going to be my biggest zinnia garden, and the one with the most suspense and anticipation as to what new zinnia variations might appear.

More later,

ZM


This post was edited by zenman on Sat, Mar 29, 14 at 23:08


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM,
What really used to tick me off about the corn, was that who ever it was wouldn't just pick an ear and finish it off, they'd pick multiple ears and take a couple of bites out of ALL of them, and then just drop 'em and go get another! Darn wasteful if you ask me! A paper bag over the ear sometimes kept them safe, though if you're growing alot of corn you can hardly spend all the time it takes to do that, but I also tried cracked chile pepper - I think they loved it - "Oh good - seasoning!" I grew almost exclusively Illini X-Sweet - possibly one of the best tasting varieties I've ever eaten. Sigh.

Those are some fine hybrids. I'm getting antsy about getting things going. Right now, I only have my peppers and eggplants started, but the germination was spectacular, except for the chile peppers. It occurred to me, that with proper magnification so I could see what the heck I was doing, I might be able to safely break open those hard seed coats with some fine tipped scissors. I set up a magnifying glass sticking out of a coffee cup, and with my reading glasses on, this gave me the ability to maneuver the seeds under the glass and get a better view. When I started clipping the edge of the seed coat and pulling it away, some of those little roots were popping out as if spring-loaded! You could almost hear them saying "Thanks! Thought I'd never get out of there!" A tip of my hat goes to you and your friends on here for the discussion about denuding zinnia seeds. Of course, I'd had the suspicion in the past that some of the germination problems with some seeds was because the seed coat was too tough - thus, my experiments last year with nicking alot of the larger veggie seeds. But I don't think I would have attempted denuding the peppers, if you hadn't given me the idea.

Wanted to ask, though I realize you're in a warmer zone than me, but with those zinnias that you're moving out to your tunnels in the spring, how early are you starting them indoors?


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

"...but with those zinnias that you're moving out to your tunnels in the spring, how early are you starting them indoors ?"

I don't set indoors seedlings into the tunnels. The tunnels are really too big for that, and I could never grow enough seedlings indoors to make much of a dent in filling them. So I plant zinnia seeds in-ground in the tunnels. It is somewhat like an expanded version of Winter Sowing, only it is Spring.

Each tunnel is 6-feet wide and about 57 feet long. I place 4 rows 16 inches apart inside each tunnel. That leaves a foot of space between the rows and the edge of the tunnel, which worked out fine last year. A garden walkway interrupts the middle of each tunnel, so their effective length is about 51 feet. So each tunnel has about 204 feet of usable row, and since I sow my zinnia seeds about 4 inches apart, I get 3 seeds in a foot of row, for a total of a little over 600 seeds per tunnel. Allowing for germination percentage, mole damage and occasional cutworm damage, that would result in about 500 zinnia seedlings per tunnel.

I would be very hard pressed to fill a single tunnel with indoor grown seedlings. I am adding a third tunnel this Spring, so in-ground seed planting in the tunnels seems most practical to me. Our safe No-Frost date here is sometime in the middle of May, so I will start planting zinnia seeds in-ground in the tunnels about the first of April. I might even think of myself as an April Fool when I am planting zinnia seeds outside on April first. This year, I may experiment and transplant a few indoor zinnia seedlings into a tunnel, but that will be a rather small scale thing.

More later,

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi again, Alex,

"...but with those zinnias that you're moving out to your tunnels in the spring, how early are you starting them indoors ?"

I inadvertently dodged part of your question. I plant my indoors zinnias as one seed per 3.25-inch square clear Orchid pot, and although the Orchid pots are a little deeper than standard, the zinnia seedling is usually fairly root-bound in 4 weeks.

So at that time it should either be repotted to a 5-inch square pot, or set into the ground outdoors. I did plant a few seeds last week, and I will have to repot them, or possibly sneak them into a low tunnel outside.

I will probably do my main indoor planting about April 15th. About May 15th I should be able to flex the pots a little and slip the root ball out intact for easy placement in a hole outdoors.

More later,

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM,
They always say our last predicted frost is May 21st, but it's generally more like a week later. Sometimes we're lucky, though. I'm not even going to begin to predict what this season has in store for us.

I guess normally when I've started some zinnias indoors, it's been more like early April, but my recollection is that I end up having to transplant them into bigger pots before they make it outside, and by this time, I'm sort of short on space indoors and begrudging the extra potting soil as well.

500 zinnias/tunnel X 3 tunnels = That's a lot of zinnias!!! With that many chances to come up with more jewels like the ones you've produced already. I can only hope that with the relative handful I'll have space for, that I can come up with something fun. But much of it is in the doing and the anticipation anyway, so I'll be satisfied just to see something a little different and pretty. :)

I just tried to figure out in my head how much square footage I have to work with in the corral, but my mind's too tired, and I need to re-pace the new area that will be opening up. However, here's a bit of a deceptive shot which makes the newly raked raised beds (from 2012) look longer than they really are. The areas past the sticks (there are some things overwintering there) are about 25 ft long, I think. In addition to these beds there is another space about 20 ft X 25 ft, and then there will be the new area which is presently under tarps - also 20 x 25 maybe? I may be putting a portion of the garden space in this picture to buckwheat - unless I get greedy for zinnia space! Oh, and there's the little perennial garden which is in front of these beds where I'm standing to take the picture. All that black plastic garbage laying in the distance is my homemade black plastic mulch sheets. I pull them over my pepper and squash beds more for the heating aspect than weed control. I cut holes for the plants, and made punctures all over for water and air to get through. This will be the third or is it 4th? year I'm using them. It's made a difference in things ripening quicker. If I'm paying for those fancy hybrid orange bell pepper seeds, I want orange peppers!
- Alex

Garden 2012 - raked bare beds photo vegiebeds.jpg


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hello everyone. My onions are sheltered elsewhere now, and I have room under the light for some zinnias. Thought I would make a post to show everyone how I'm getting started. The average last frost here is April 15th or so, so counting back 3-5 weeks, now is a good time to start. The zinnias will have to be hardened off, or acclimated to the conditions outside, so they won't be taking up space under the lights for long.
I take a 4-cell plastic container and fill it with potting soil, a commercial mix intended for succulents and cactus. I won't mention the brand, because it's already popular enough. It's nothing fancy, just what is available locally. I then let this soak over night in a shallow container of water, and poke two zinnia seeds gently under the surface in the middle of each square.

If you want to get technical, zinnias put their roots down from the pointed end of the seed. I have planted them upside down on accident when starting out, and although funny, it doesn't seem to matter. If upside down, the seeds will put the root straight into the air, then it will fall back down to the soil, then the seed will attempt to leverage itself out of the buried seed coat. Some people may argue that this actually strengthens the seedlings. That's up to someone else, if they want to experiment.

Anyways, back to the point: with two zinnia seeds per square, you can now get away with sub-par germination rates. If all four have at least one sprout come up, cut the smaller/slower ones so that there is only one zinnia per square. If one or two squares didn't germinate at all, you can gently pluck a seedling from one of the squares with extras. The time to cut the smaller ones is probably a little before the first true leaves start to grow - you don't want them to get tangled and compete. The reason you snip the rejects is to not disturb the seedlings you want to keep.

That's all for now. I'll post again soon when the seeds have germinated.

This post was edited by Telescody on Fri, Mar 14, 14 at 22:54


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Telescody,
Average last frost April 15th?! I am so-o-o jealous! But I still want to hear everyone's particulars, just for the vicarious enjoyment of it! What's everyone else doing out there? We're still under snow here, folks - I need entertainment! LOL


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hello all,

We are definitely not under snow here, although last night did turn cold and produce a small amount of frozen precipitation. Nothing more than a flurry of snow. Yesterday was a Spring day, with temps in the 70's. This is a view of my garden, which is mainly just bare plowed ground and some low tunnel hoops.

That picture was taken day before yesterday. That is farmland in the background, with nothing but soybean stubble. I am a little surprised they didn't sow winter wheat after harvesting the soybeans. They did grow winter wheat last year.

I have been making small succession plantings of zinnias indoors. This picture was taken yesterday.

Some of those seedlings may wind up being transplanted under one of my low tunnels. I am working on a third low tunnel, but today I am staying inside. The weather outside is dreary and cold today, much different from the last two days. More later.

ZM


This post was edited by zenman on Sat, Mar 29, 14 at 23:19


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hey all,

I participated in zinnias part 18, and then around that time I stopped coming to the forum because I got busy and stuff.

I've collected bunches of zinnia seeds from ebay, trades, other yards, and some commercial sites.

I've been trying my own breeding from the tips I was given on part 18.

Here's my question;

The only "new" things I'm getting are new colors. Zinnias with multiple colors on one flower.

IE: Orange + red gets me a flower with orange, red and yellow on it. Red and yellow gets me a flower that is light pink and yellow.

How do I get the amazing looking petal formations that are in the pictures that you guys post??

Here's a few pictures:



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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Desirai,
Those are some pretty colors! Love the orange. Interesting curled petals in the center. I wonder if, following what ZM has said in other posts, if green harvesting the seeds from those specific petals (green harvesting, because it would be easier to distinguish the proper petal to pick), would lead to some different petal formations?
Anyway, here's my contribution for the day: my garden thus far - woo hoo! :) This is only the peppers and eggplants. Will be starting some other things tomorrow probably.
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

What is green harvesting??

I did harvest that specific flower as soon as it went to seed because it was the only one that had those little curled petals. I'm hoping I can reproduce it through its children!


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Desirai,
It's something totally new to me - I'll let ZM explain it when he comes on next. It has to do with harvesting the seed before it turns brown and dry.
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Desirai,

Welcome back. I see you have gotten some good color blends from your crosses. Don't forget to save seeds from your crosses, because they will recombine to create still different color effects. And don't hesitate to make crosses between your crosses. The more things you can mix together, the more interesting things can get.

"How do I get the amazing looking petal formations that are in the pictures that you guys post?? "

The first step is to include a wider variety of zinnias in your crosses. I really like some of the things I have gotten from the Whirligig strain, and I recommend you grow some Whirligigs and look for some unusual specimens in them and cross those with some of your other zinnias. The Whirligigs were derived from a cross between two zinnia species, and as a result they are recombining in many different ways -- far beyond the samples that they show in the seed catalogs or on seed packet pictures.

I also recommend you grow some of Burpee's Burpeeana Giants for their large size and interesting cactus flowered flower form. Crossing them with your zinnias will increase their size and modify their flower form.

Then, to get some more exotic variations in your flower forms, also grow some of the scabiosa flowered zinnias. There are currently two varieties of them, the Candy Mixed and the Scabious Flowered Mixed. Incidentally, both of those two strains are not 100% pure, so expect to cull and discard some off-type specimens.

Those varieties should be different enough to create quite a variety in your hybrids, and I think you will be surprised at some of the things that can appear. And always be on the lookout for any kind of interesting mutation that might appear in your zinnias. Crossing mutations with your other zinnias can lead to interesting results.

"What is green harvesting?? "

That term refers to the practice of harvesting your zinnia seeds while they are still green. There are a couple of advantages to doing that. First, it avoids some of the bad things that can happen to zinnia seeds when you wait for the flower head to die and turn brown. If you have a rainy spell, brown zinnia seeds can sprout in the seed head, and that ruins them. Also, zinnia seeds in brown seed heads are vulnerable to seed eating birds, such as finches. Harvesting green seeds avoids both of those problems, and if you are planning on planting them immediately, green seeds can help you get a second generation of zinnias growing many weeks sooner than if you went the classic brown seed head route.

It's good to have you back, Desirai, and thanks for posting those pictures. You did a good job of getting some real close-up views of your zinnia blooms. This should be an interesting zinnia year for all of us, and I think we all can make some real progress this Spring and Summer. We welcome your further questions and comments.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Thanks for your reply and those links! I collected new zinnia colors and flavors through trading that I'm super excited to grow. I've not seen that scabiosa type zinnia, they look so fluffy!!! :) I'll definitely buy some! (it says out of stock right now)

What methods do you use to get your zinnias started?

Do you plant each seed in its own container? Do you plant multiple seeds in multiple containers?


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Desirai,

" I'll definitely buy some! (it says out of stock right now) "

I didn't notice that. Apparently Park Seed still has Candy Mix in stock.

" What methods do you use to get your zinnias started ? "

I plant most of my zinnias directly in-ground where they are to grow outside. I do that for 99% or more of my zinnias, because that is the easiest and most efficient way to grow them. I usually drive a stake at each end of a row, and tie a string between the stakes. I pull the string tight enough to get it straight and several inches above the ground. I use the sharp point of a hoe to drag a little furrow directly under the string.

I drop the zinnia seeds individually into that furrow. Depending on the seeds, I space them about 4-inches, 6-inches, or 12-inches apart, depending on how severely I anticipate culling them. If I anticipate a high cull rate, or a low germination percentage, I will use the 4-inch spacing. I plan to plant my whole south garden in Burpeeana Giants Mix this year, and because I will probably keep at least half of them after evaluating their first blooms, I will plant them about a foot apart.

I space my rows 16 inches apart. I group the rows in beds of 4 rows, which makes each bed 48 inches (4 feet) wide. I am a senior citizen, so I like to have a wide path between each of my zinnia beds, for easy access by myself. I do as much of my gardening as I can from the seat of my tractor scoot. And I have a big wheel barrow that I like to move down the paths between the beds. And I drag garden hose down the paths when I need to. So I lay out my paths between the 4-foot beds as 6-feet wide.

That seems like a waste of space -- allocating more space for paths than for beds -- but I like to do it that way. I need ready access to my zinnias, to evaluate them in detail, and pollinate them. I like to have good situation awareness in my zinnia garden, and a zinnia garden can be quite an interesting ecosystem. I like to just look at them and enjoy them and the butterflies and hummingbirds. I have a lawn chair and a little table that I move around in my garden so that I can sit and relax with a drink and some day-dreaming. That is the "Zen" part of my zinnias.

Besides, the zinnias spread out as they make good bushes, so the 4-foot beds expand into 6-foot beds, and the 6-foot paths shrink to 4-foot paths. It works out for me and my tractor scoot.

I do not attempt to transplant the in-ground zinnias, because you always seriously damage their root systems when you do that.

" Do you plant each seed in its own container? Do you plant multiple seeds in multiple containers ? "

I do start some zinnias indoors, and even grow them indoors in the Winter, but that is a difficult thing to do and appropriate only when you are deliberately looking for a challenge. I usually place just one seed in a 3.25-inch square clear pot, and if it doesn't come up in a few days I replace it with a different seed. I repot it to a 5-inch square pot in about a month.

I don't grow zinnias in containers outdoors, although that could be done. But container growing is a bit higher maintenance. Outdoors in-ground is the efficient enjoyable way to grow zinnias, and you can grow lots more zinnias that way.

Breeding zinnias is a kind of numbers game -- the more the numbers, the greater your chance of finding something good. And the better your chance of finding that interesting mutation that is just waiting to be found. But even without mutations, relying on just natural variation and selecting the best from those, you can make steady progress. When you "be the bee" and cross-pollinate your zinnias intelligently, you can do some good things. But always be alert for that something special that can appear without warning.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)


This post was edited by zenman on Wed, Mar 19, 14 at 9:25


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hello everyone,

I have been bending hoops for my new third low tunnel using this bending jig. The bending tool is mounted temporarily on our deck.

The hoops are made of 1/2-inch electrical conduit, which comes in 10-foot lengths. I have three different bending tools, one for 3-foot wide half circles, one for 4-foot-wide half circles, and one for 6-foot-wide half circles. I am using the one for 6-foot wide half circles. This is a picture of bent hoops, parked on an old tree and ready to be installed in the ground to create the third low tunnel.

The hoops have the form of an arch, which is a strong architectural shape. I space them 40 inches apart in the low tunnels, to allow for the installation of a top piece of 10-foot electrical conduit to span 3 hoops. The 1/2-inch conduit is light and strong, and priced well below $2 per piece. I hope to have the third tunnel ready to plant zinnias in by the first of April. More later. I will cover the tunnel with fabric that I saved in the garage from last year.

ZM

This post was edited by zenman on Sat, Mar 29, 14 at 23:27


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Well, that's just cool! I watched a video on using a bending jig since I was curious about it. The guy was actually building his own jig for a specific job, but he had to heat it. I'm assuming, from the pic, that this jig you have is a simple affair which doesn't require any heat to bend the relatively small conduit?


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

"I'm assuming, from the pic, that this jig you have is a simple affair which doesn't require any heat to bend the relatively small conduit?"

You are right. No heat required to bend the small conduit. It is made of a steel alloy that is designed to be easily bent, to help the electricians that are installing wiring in a new home. There is more info at Hoop Benders, with videos showing how easy it is. The bender comes with an extension handle to give you more leverage when bending down to the very end of the conduit.

Last year I also used bent hoops to make a tomato tunnel and a moveable enclosed guinea pen. (Even fairly young guineas can fly.) I used the 3-foot bender for the tomato tunnel and the 4-foot bender for the guinea house. So I have found a use for all three of my benders.

I notice that the hoops website mentions a "chicken tractor frame kit". We did essentially that same sort of thing last year for our young guineas.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hello all,

I have mentioned before how last year I found a mutant "star-petaled" mutant, and took a chance and crossed it extensively with my breeder zinnias. Since I now have the "technology" to show larger pictures, I will revisit that mutant. As before, you can click on the picture to open a window with a larger version, and "clean up" that screen with the F11 key. The mutant appeared in my south garden, which last year was devoted to a White Cactus Zinnia project. Ironically, that mutant was the only thing of real interest that was produced in my south garden last year. The White Cactus Project failed to produce any worthwhile white cactus specimens. This is one of the early stage blooms of the mutant. (If you wish to see a larger version of the picture, simply click on it and when a new window opens, hit your F11 key to "clean up" the screen. Hit F11 again to see a way out of that window, to get back here.)

This plant put out several blooms and each of them produced a usable amount of pollen which I used to pollinate many of my breeder zinnias.

That picture is what one of its blooms looked like after getting a bit more mature. I was concerned that it looked rather ugly, but I could not ignore the fact that its flower form was completely new. A few of its F2 recombinants are beginning to bloom out now. This is my second generation of indoor Winter zinnias. This is the first specimen to recombine genes from that star-tipped mutant.

That zinnia could very well be the first example of a new strain of zinnias based on the genes for that flower form. I intend to do some dissecting of its flower parts to determine whether stigmas and/or anther bundles are present. It seems to be a new flower form for zinnias, with lots of potential for crosses with other zinnia flower forms. I am really quite excited about this thing. More later.

ZM


This post was edited by zenman on Sat, Mar 29, 14 at 21:45


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ohmygosh @ the 3rd picture.

it's so gorgeous!!!I really hope you'll share .. :) !!

Please take more pics soon!!!


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hello everyone!

I've been enjoying all the photos posted in the last few months, and also looking forward to when I can get some seeds planted! I may try a few indoor plantings of zinnias, but most will be out in the garden, if/when we get spring! (I know that this is the first day, BUT)....

I've got a lot of seeds from my "extremely-rolled petaled" flowers and can't wait to see how many will give rise to the same.

ZM, your tubed zinnias are so interesting. The ones posted on March 12 are particularly nice. The last ones posted on March 19 are different, too--almost look like scabious blooms with missing guard petals!

Desirai, your flower posted on March 17 has pretty shades of pink and yellow!

I think I may have found another source for scabious zinnias, and that is Territorial Seed Company's #FL3500 "Cupcakes Mix" zinnia. I ordered several packs not long ago. Anticipating how they will turn out!

In June, Indiana is having it's State Master Gardener Conference in Indianapolis. Joseph Tychonievich will be a speaker there covering the topic "GMOs." I look forward to meeting him ;-) !

JG


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi JG,

"I've got a lot of seeds from my "extremely-rolled petaled" flowers and can't wait to see how many will give rise to the same. "

Welcome back. I can't wait to see some more of those Extreme-Rolls of yours. They deserve to become a commercial zinnia variety.

"In June, Indiana is having it's State Master Gardener Conference in Indianapolis. Joseph Tychonievich will be a speaker there covering the topic "GMOs." "

In case anybody missed it, Joseph Tychonievich is the author of the book, Plant Breeding for the Home Gardener, which several of you might find interesting. I bought a copy early on, and read it with interest, and keep it for reference. There are a lot of plants that the home gardener can have fun breeding, in addition to zinnias, and Joseph Tychonievich has had hands-on experience with several of them. This series of message threads on zinnias gets an indirect mention in the book, and there is an inset on page 81 introducing JackieR's work with zinnias. More later. I'm busy in the midst of installing a Reverse Osmosis water purifying system, and it is more complicated than I anticipated.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

JG: Thank you for posting that link!!! And thank you for the nice comments!! :)

I'm so anxious and excited about getting my plants growing... I've got a ton of seeds sown, but nothing yet.... I check them about twice a day LOL :)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Desirai - What? Only twice daily? LOL
Zenman, love the new hybrid! I'm thinking this is going to be a great gardening year, and I can hardly wait. Now if it would just warm up and stay warmed up around here...


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hello all,

Well, I got the Reverse Osmosis system installed and it is now up and running and producing purified water. Also got my hoops for the third low tunnel installed, prepared the soil in the tunnel, and it is now ready for sowing zinnia seeds. I'll probably wait until April to sow zinnia seeds in it, because it is quite cold here now.

Second generation indoor zinnias are in bloom now, and this is one of the tubulars that has a fairly refined look.

Also, another recombinant involving the star-tipped mutant has opened up, and I like it even better than the first one, because it has longer "petal-flowers".

This year my outside in-ground plantings will include a lot of F2's with the star-tipped mutant as one or more grandparents, so I anticipate that I will be seeing a lot more specimens with flowerforms like that last one. I will give them a lot of attention because they are a step toward one of my goals of having every zinnia petal become a little flower in its own right. More later.

ZM

PS For some reason the large picture feature seems to be "broken" and not working the way it should. I left a query with PhotoBucket. Clicking on a picture now doesn't produce the intended result, namely the large picture in a new window. That did work a couple of days ago, so I don't know what is going on with PhotoBucket and/or GardenWeb.

This post was edited by zenman on Thu, Mar 27, 14 at 21:03


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - it's working now - the pic is opening in Photobucket for me in the larger format.
Nice form on those two. Will be very interested to see what you come up with this summer. And I am anxious to get going myself. Can you believe it - 3 more inches of snow this morning when we woke up. And it's supposed to fall into single digits tonight. :(
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

"Can you believe it - 3 more inches of snow this morning when we woke up. And it's supposed to fall into single digits tonight. :( "

Well, if it is any consolation, we had a light snow/sleet/frost last night, and everything was white and frozen this morning. However, it seems to have melted off now.

"...it's working now - the pic is opening in Photobucket for me in the larger format."

Yes, that last picture was working for me, too. However, most of the others were not. I left a query with PhotoBucket, but haven't heard back from them. However, I did make all of my albums Private this morning. Some were Public, including the album with all of my pictures in this Part 24 thread. So maybe making the albums Private will solve the problem. It seems to have done so on a lot of my other pictures, but several did not work, and there have been HTML errors preventing any access to the larger pictures. Maybe we need to let PhotoBucket's system adjust to my recent Public-to-Private changes.

Hope springs eternal, so here's hoping this picture works. It is a side view of that last bloom, to show its structure, and the similarity of the petals to little trumpet-shaped flowers.

From that angle, my fluorescent lights kind of "washed out" the picture and gave it an extreme "high key" effect. I didn't have time to pull the pot out and set up a photo portrait of it. These indoor zinnias are a little bit like a nursery of babies, all crying for attention. Oh well. I hope PhotoBucket gets their act together. More later.

ZM


This post was edited by zenman on Sat, Mar 29, 14 at 23:55


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

can you share the information of your camera set up?

I have a nikon d3100. I love taking close shots of my flowers but I just have the basic kit lens so it doesn't do very well.


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - no, not the least bit consoled - LOL. 7 degrees this morning...sigh...Keep the pics coming - that, at least, lifts the spirits somewhat.


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Desirai,

" Can you share the information of your camera set up? I have a nikon d3100. I love taking close shots of my flowers but I just have the basic kit lens so it doesn't do very well. "

Yes, I can share the information. This is the info for the first shot.

And this is the info for that last picture.

My Nikon D3200 was the successor to your D3100. Both of our cameras have been replaced by the new Nikon D3300.

You may be saving your pictures as JPEGs, which are a lossy compressed format. You can preserve the maximum picture information by saving your images as RAW files in the Nikon NEF format. There are several software packages that can process NEF files to obtain the best pictures from them. I use DxO Optics Pro 9, the Standard edition. The higher priced Elite edition is required for the higher priced professional grade cameras. They have a fully functional 30-day demo, if you want to experiment with it. I am relatively certain that it supports both your camera and your lens. DxO Optics Pro supports most cameras and most lenses. So it "knows" the properties of your camera's sensor, and makes adjustments to compensate for its shortcomings. The same for the lens -- it "knows" about its specific distortions, and makes adjustments to correct those. DxO Optics Pro 9 is pretty amazing software.

As you can probably see from my EXIF data, I am using the Nikon AF-S Micro NIKKOR 40mm f2.8 lens, which has close focusing capabilities as close as 6.4 inches. It does not have image stabilization, nor can it zoom, but it is the lowest priced of the Nikon macro lenses. If you have any questions about any of this, don't hesitate to ask.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)


This post was edited by zenman on Sat, Mar 29, 14 at 23:46


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Yes, I would definitely love a nikkor lens, but I can't afford them.

Thanks for the info!


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Nice pictures, ZM. Desirai, I think your zinnias are really awesome as they are. Those colors are stunning.
samhain10, yeah, April 15th or thereabouts. That one year where we had a mild winter, we had our last frost somewhere in March, which was insane. Last year we had snow on May 3rd, I had to cover all of my plants because it was nice and mid 70s the week before that, so I thought I could stick them out... I don't know what to think of this spring so far, but I have a feeling that the true last frost date is gonna be more around May than April.

Anyways, back to my little zinnia progress log. In my last post I stated that the root comes out of the pointy end, and here's a picture to illustrate that:

As you can see, the seed casing sort of "rots" away, unfolding from the pointy end, allowing the cotyledons to unfurl. Another word for the "root" (from a seed) is a "radicle," and the section between the radicle and the cotyledons could be referred to as the hypocotyl. Here's another picture, showing the cotyledons and the hypocotyl specifically, with the seed case neatly displayed in the background:

At this stage, seedlings are very vulnerable. They have no extra nodes developed yet, and little energy stored. Their root system is basic, with little branching. Any damage could very likely be fatal for the plant. It's a good idea to give them extra care and attention at least until the first true leaves develop. Once there is a bit of hairy stem between the cotyledons and first true leaves, two auxiliary buds form where the cotyledons meet the stem. This is especially interesting, because the first true leaves can be completely chopped off and the plant will survive. In fact, at this stage, the seedlings have much better defenses to mechanical injury.

Well, that's the point of discussion for my next post in a couple weeks. For now, let's get back to seeds and germination. With the method I described in the last post, it takes a relatively long time to germinate, and rates can be spotty. A much better way to germinate seeds is described many times before, so I'll just glance over it: take a razor blade or X-Acto knife, and shave a little bit of the seed case off, or if you can (it takes practice), remove the seed casing entirely. Place the seeds in a folded up paper towel, and wet them with warm water. Put this moist paper towel inside of a sandwich bag and leave a bit of the bag open to discourage mold. Place on a warm surface (I use my satellite receiver, other home appliances like the top of the fridge, top of your computer, works just as well), and check at least twice a day. This method works particularly well for sneaking in a second generation of outdoor zinnias, if you're attempting that, be sure to use green seeds as described in other posts. Don't wait until they're brown, or you're wasting a lot of time, and risking losing the seeds to pests.

One more thing concerning seedlings and zinnias in particular: they need a lot of light. A south-facing window is not enough. I supplement a south-facing window with about 12 hours of fluorescent light (2-4" above the plants - I raise the lights during sunny days so that it doesn't shade them), and I can tell that I'm just barely cutting it. Without an adequate light setup, it's really discouraging and saddening to see your plants stretch out desperately for light. They become weak, they fall over, and ultimately if you manage to get the light levels up, that plant will still be permanently elongated. So my advice is that if you don't have the light available, just wait a couple weeks past your average last frost and start them outdoors - or wintersow them a few weeks to a couple months before. I've done that, and it works perfectly well for zinnias.

Jeeze, kind of a long post, huh? Well, that's all I had for today. I'll post again in a couple weeks with some more information that someone might find interesting.


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Telescody,
April 15th, huh? Around here it's more like May 21st and often later. Except for that one year - was that 2012? - when the last frost was in March - what a treat!
I have to repeat my thanks for the advice I've received on here about denuding seeds. As I mentioned before, I'd started nicking most of my larger veggie seeds last year to aid in their germination, resulting in much higher germination rates.
After reading the posts on here, I started carefully snipping bits of the seed coats off both peppers and eggplants that I was pre-germinating in paper toweling, if they didn't appear to be swelling right away. I have been doing pre-germination for some years now, sometimes even with very small seeds. But there can still be low germination with some seeds, particularly older seed in which the seed coats have further hardened with age.
Specifically, I had some Fairy Tale eggplants that were packaged for 2012 sale. They germinated fairly well for that year, but hardly at all for 2013. I still had 6 seeds left, and decided I would see what I could do with them. I put them in the paper toweling, as is, the first day. After 3 days, I was getting germination on some of the other pepper and eggplant seeds in their packages in the polybag. So, I took some small cuticle scissors and nipped the edge of the seed coat to start. I had to do this looking through a magnifying glass as you can imagine. I don't have a head-mounted outfit like ZM's, though I'm going to look into it, but I did what I could by propping a magnifying glass up in a cup and moving the seed around under it till I could get a good view. I gradually, over the course of the normal 3 weeks listed for germination, snipped more of the seed coat until they were completely denuded. 4 out of the 6 had germinated when I decided to go ahead and plant them all. The 2 ungerminated looked to be alive, though they hadn't put out a root yet. But, since I'm growing 2 other varieties, I only wanted a couple anyway. My point in all this is that denuding seeds can most definitely aid in germination, since often the problem appears to be hardened seed coats that the embryo can't break out of. Thanks, guys!


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Telescody, that was an excellent post, very helpful, and some impressive close-up photography as well. You have an interesting looking growing medium.

Alex, you're a fast learner on the seed germination. It also occurred to me to try some of the partial denuding on my pepper seeds and tomato seeds, hoping to speed up their germination times.

PhotoBucket informed me that their system doesn't support opening a picture in its own separate window any more, and they don't understand how we were able to get that effect recently, even if it was only temporary.

In any case, I guess I will have to look for an alternate photo-hosting service to achieve those separate full-screen results. I considered Flickr, but Flickr has made some recent changes that alienated a lot of their users. Right now, I'm thinking I will try SmugMug. In the meantime, the basic PhotoBucket-sourced 550-wide pictures will continue to work, and GardenWeb may rehost them in their own servers. I actually need to pollinate some of my zinnias now. More later.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hello all,

Our weather has been quite variable, with some snow showers and some days, like today, mild enough to make outside garden work possible. I am very much multi-tasking now, doing some work outside, some inside, along with some non-garden related activities. I got three pepper plants up today, with their germination speeded up by slicing off a bit of the seed coat with an X-Acto knife. The packet said germination in 10 to 21 days, and they made it up in 6 days, so way to go X-Acto!

I want to experiment with some new picture posting techniques, so here is a close-up of that star-tipped recombinant.

As before, the intent is that you could click on the picture, if you wished, to open a larger version of it in a new window. Looking at that picture, I can't help thinking how very "un-zinnia-like" it is. I think there is future potential for amateur zinnia breeders to come up with some really wild new forms of zinnias. More later.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Edited to remove a duplicate post.

This post was edited by zenman on Sat, Mar 29, 14 at 11:55


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Edited to delete a duplicate post.

This post was edited by zenman on Sat, Mar 29, 14 at 2:25


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

My zinnias are sprouting! I'm so excited! :) :)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Desirai,

I'm excited, too. But those seedlings look like they are stretching for more light. Above all, zinnias like a lot of light. In your 7B zone, it may be warm enough outside so that you could take those trays out in the sun during the day and, if needed, bring them back inside during the night.

Just out of curiosity, do you know what variety of zinnias those seedlings are from?

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Yes I have them on my dresser in my room, because our cats knocked over all my seedlings a few days ago. I was so sad.

The seeds I planted are:

Polar Bear
Violet Queen
Green
Candy stick
Canary Yellow

and some seeds from my own personal garden last year (the pictures I posted)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Desirai,

It looks like you are off to a good start, with a good variety of commercial strains and some seeds of your own that you saved from last year. We look forward to following your ongoing zinnia adventures, even when they are "cat-related". I am going to try to try something with green zinnias this year, myself. Green zinnias are kind of weird.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hello everyone,

This is a kind of exciting time of year for me, transitioning from indoor zinnia growing to my outdoors zinnia garden. My indoor zinnia project this last Winter was challenging, but useful for supplying additional seeds to plant out in-ground in my garden. This is a picture of one of my indoor tubular-petaled zinnias that I used as a breeder.

It is a fairly conventional tubular form, with slightly wider tubes than usual, and with a bit of flare-out at the end of the tubes. I hope to grow a lot of tubular-petaled zinnias in-ground this year, in order to make some progress in selecting better ones to improve the strain.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - it's lovely. Look's like there's going to be lots of action this year, zinnia-wise - fun!
Desirai, lots of great colors you chose. It will be interesting to see what you get from those combinations.


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

This is a picture of another of my indoor tubular-petaled breeder zinnias. I am pollinating it to create seeds for planting in-ground in my up-coming outdoors zinnia garden.

This next one has tubular petals, but they open out a bit "toothy" at the end.

It probably got some genes from my star-petaled mutant. I am crossing it with other specimens that have possible star-petaled ancestry, as well as other breeder quality tubular specimens. This is actually a fairly recent picture of my third low tunnel.

There was a light snow on the ground at the time I took that picture, but it melted off completely the next day. I will be planting zinnia seeds in that tunnel and covering it in the next few days.
More later. This is a busy time for me.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - Holy Canoli - that tunnel looks HUGE!!! Curious - what thickness plastic are you using, and how do you secure it to the hoops? Are you using the clips offered by that online company you mentioned, or something else?

That tubular effect makes those zinnias look like verbena. How big are they? About the size of whirligigs?

Don't feel in a rush to answer; I understand busy. I'm at the first transplant stage for a number of things now. It's time-consuming for sure.
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

"...that tunnel looks HUGE!!! "

It's not huge. The tunnel is only 6 feet wide and about 3.5 feet high. The camera perspective from inside the tunnel gives an illusion of largeness. However, there is room inside a tunnel for four rows, so a tunnel does house one of my "standard beds" of zinnias.

"...what thickness plastic are you using, and how do you secure it to the hoops? Are you using the clips offered by that online company you mentioned, or something else?"

I am not using plastic, I am using non-woven frost protection agricultural fabric. The thickness of the fabric is specified by the weight of one square yard of fabric. A lightweight fabric is 0.5 oz and a mediuim weight is 1 oz. I am using a heavy 2 oz fabric and some extra heavy 3 oz fabric. The fabric has several advantages over clear plastic. It breathes and can allow rain water to penetrate and the heavier weights like I use can hold the heat in better than plastic. I attach the fabric to the hoops with special plastic clips that are made for that purpose.

"That tubular effect makes those zinnias look like verbena. How big are they? About the size of whirligigs?"

The original tubular mutant was a little over an inch in diameter. I have been crossing and backcrossing to increase the size, and now I get a range of sizes ranging from about 1.5 to 3 inches in diameter. Whirligigs are typically over 3 inches in diameter, with some in the 5-inch range. I hope to increase the size of the tubulars into the 5 to 6 inch range. That is one reason why I will be growing a bunch of Burpeeana Giants this year, to have some selected 6-inch breeding material.

Incidentally, it got up to about 75 degrees here today and I planted a row of Whirligigs in the West half of my third tunnel. Tomorrow will be cooler but less windy and I will probably plant Whirligigs in the remaining three rows of that West half tomorrow. I haven't decided yet what to put in the East half. And I still have some cleanup work to ready the other two tunnels for planting.

Since I had planted some zinnias in the tunnel, I needed to sprinkle them, so I dragged my big garden hoses up from the basement, where they spent the Winter, and connected them. It's starting to feel more like outdoor gardening now. More later.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Ah, yeah - like my row covers - gotcha. I have no notion of the thickness of my covers; it's been so long since I ordered the stuff. Probably mine are pretty lightweight, and they're getting a little raggedy now, but I still use them and they are helpful. I have some makeshift hoops that are large pieces of welded wire fencing that I've bent into arcs. They're unwieldy, but they do the job of protection for those days I need frost covers. I can't work on the beds with them in place, though, which makes your stream-lined setup that much more appealing, even putting aside the other factors. Some day maybe...

Yes, the past couple of days have been glorious here! No 70's (I wish), but at least high 40's and SUN. Some areas of bare ground, but snow still almost a foot deep in the low spots. Now we're supposed to be due for rain, freezing rain and snow again for a few days, I think, but no temps below the 20's. I know that doesn't sound exactly encouraging, but after the winter we've just been through, I'm grateful for small favors.


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

I got Whirligigs planted into that West half of the new tunnel, and the first layer of a covering installed on that half. Weather permitting, I will plant Burpeeana Giants in the East half tomorrow.

I have shown a picture of this indoor zinnia before, but it continues to produce new blooms, and this is the current new bloom.

I have removed a few petal-flowers from a previous bloom on that plant, dissected them, and discovered that the petal-flowers seem to contain well developed anther bundles. It would seem that those petal-flowers may be pollen florets in disguise. It depends on whether those anther bundles and internal stigmas are fertile, and produce selfed seeds. I will be keeping an eye on its green seeds to see if they are developing into fat viable versions. More later.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - You don't mention it, but can you slit open some of the florets without removing them, so that you can get pollen to hand-cross with?


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

"...but can you slit open some of the florets without removing them, so that you can get pollen to hand-cross with?"

That's an excellent idea. I will try it out today. And I might just "sacrifice" some of the petal-florets to use as pollinators, as well. This is a picture of the bloom that I removed a few petal-florets from, to study and dissect them.

After all, I don't hesitate to pick the "regular" zinnia florets to use as pollinator "brushes". It is possible that the pollen is viable in these petal-florets, even if their stigmas aren't viable. By crossing this specimen with various tubular petaled breeders, I might be able to solve the "hidden stigma"problem that most of the tubular petaled specimens have. With their stigmas hidden in their tubes, their tubular petal pollination is very much impeded, and they rely on conventional florets interspersed among the petals to produce seeds.

(There have been several instances in which tubular petaled specimens produced large seed yields of "naturally pollinated" petal seeds, and I have yet to solve the mystery of how this happens. The tubular petals do not contain anther bundles, or least none that I have found, and I have dissected over a hundred tubular petals looking for anther bundles, without finding even a trace of them.)

Eventually I will want a strain of tubulars that are "self fertile" in their tubular petals, and this odd zinnia specimen just might be the key to achieving that. More later. Busy, busy.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - Not sure why I would think it, but I would bet that the pollen would be viable even if the stigmas weren't capable of being impregnated, if that's what you would call it in a plant.
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

"...but I would bet that the pollen would be viable even if the stigmas weren't capable of being impregnated, if that's what you would call it in a plant. "

I think in a plant it is called "fertilized". I pollinated three different tubular petaled specimens with the pollen from this specimen. Incidentally, its code designation is H11.

Rather than split the petals, I simply removed the petal-floret, leaving the green seed part still in the flower head, to develop into a seed if it happened to be already fertilized. I opened up the petal florets to access the anther bundles. Incidentally, I now know that there is a stigma inside the anther bundle, or slightly protruding from it. I looked at the anthers through a hand microscope and observed that there are yellow pollen grains on the anthers.

So I harvested several petal-florets, extracted anther bundles, and used the whole bundle, or individual anthers from the bundle to rub on the stigmas of the target tubular petaled specimens. I used my head mounted magnifier and my fine-pointed tweezers for those delicate handling jobs. I will repeat that procedure with several additional target female blooms tomorrow.

It is becoming evident that H11 has a lot of genes from the original star-petaled mutant (G13). Including that the star points age to brown as the petal ages. But zinnia petals in general become less attractive as they age, so I guess that is acceptable. However, I regard these recombinants as mere steps along the way toward better things in the future. H11 differs from G13 in one important respect -- G13 had conventional pollen florets and apparently H11 does not.

I inspected the oldest bloom on H11, looking for viable green seeds, and there are a few, but the majority of its petal-florets have not produced a fertilized green seed. Most "regular" zinnia florets do produce self-fertilized green seeds.

We had a rain and hail tonight, and last night we had a good rain, so the garden is too muddy to work in for the time being. Tomorrow I can concentrate again on indoor gardening and pollinating some more zinnia blooms with H11 pollen. More later. Thanks again for the tip about using pollen from the H11 petal-florets.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - my duty is to serve! :)
And now, my other duties include transplanting the rest of the cabbage seedlings to their second pots, and planting the rest of the pre-germinated tomato seeds. Nicked some of those, too - to good effect.


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM, I absolutely adore H11. Like, I really, really like it. Maybe we could organize some kind of a trade later in the summer? I would happily grow a couple of those in the garden and send back the results.

Anyways, not much interesting going on here. A ton of rain and thunderstorms has made it an indoor-only affair, although today is supposed to be sunny and windy, so it may dry up a bit of the severe flooding. We got somewhere around 7 inches of rain since Wednesday, which is nearly enough to cover two average months of rainfall here. My onions didn't fair too well, but I kept some in the container protected from hail just in case.


I promised to post a bit of an update about my zinnias, but frankly they haven't grown as fast as I anticipated. That's good news, because I probably started them a little too early anyways. You can see in this picture that the two zinnias on the left sprouted out rather quickly, while the zinnia on the right was slower. I had lousy germination - much, much lower than I'm used to, so I only ended up with three zinnias this time. The plant in the background on the right is not a zinnia. I don't know what it is, and won't be able to tell for a while longer. Sometimes mysteries are good, and I look forward to solving this one later.

I may experiment with planting zinnias a little deeper than normal this year, to promote drought tolerance and see what comes of it. It wouldn't surprise me if zinnias behave a lot like peppers, putting out some more roots along the stem when buried deeper. I don't expect the same level as tomatoes, but it's worth looking into in my opinion.


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Telescody,
Yes, you can do this with zinnias as well as most other things that aren't crown-oriented like, say - strawberries or foxglove. I generally pot everything deeper when transplanting indoors and again outside if it seems necessary. I also trim the roots if there are long dangly pieces that would otherwise curl up in the bottom of the pot. As I'm sure you can guess, the pruning stimulates more side growth of roots. Again, you shouldn't do this with things that grow a long taproot, such as lupines.

About that mystery plant - ha! I've got one of those, too! It came up along side some other seedlings, and though I could tell it was one of the flowers and not one of the veggies, I wasn't sure which one. I potted it by itself, thinking it was probably one of the rudbeckias, but now I'm thinking it's the tall verbena. Which is ironic, because germination on those was very poor. Maybe they just like growing with company. :)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hello everybody,

This is what my outdoor garden looks like now. The covering over the west half of the third tunnel is only partial and after I get the whole tunnel planted, I will cover it completely.

It was cold and overcast when I took that picture a few days ago, and it is cold and overcast now. Fortunately, indoor gardening activities aren't affected by the weather. This is a picture of one of my current tubular breeders that I am cross pollinating.

Unlike H11, it has its own conventional pollen florets. Since I have to "surgically alter" the petals to get access to the stigmas inside the tubes, a tubular flower is pretty much wrecked after I pollinate it. This is another current breeder, the picture taken just before the pollination activities.

Pollinating and cross pollinating zinnias is enormously more convenient indoors, because you can move their pots around and set the ones you are currently working on side-by-side. And working under bright fluorescent lighting is pleasant. I keep a cup of coffee, tea, or a cold drink nearby, and sit in an old office chair while doing the pollinating. And think about the interesting possibilities of the crosses I am making. Or just daydream in general. It's a pleasant activity. More later. That old office chair is waiting for me, along with a bunch more breeder zinnias that need to be pollinated.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM,
Telescody had the same idea I had a year or so ago. Would it be helpful to you if you had others growing out some of your less "special" breeders around the country? With technology the way it is, we could take pictures of buds and blooms and send them to you for direction on culling or keeping. We could do some of the less meticulous cross pollinating jobs as well as seed collection. Of course, that would remove the immediate control from your hands, which might feel too uncomfortable for you. But, if you just need to increase numbers of seeds of a particular variety, or are trying to stabilize a particular strain, I know I would love to help and would promise to keep all plant material "safe" for you. I would not ask for any recognition, financial or otherwise, when you become rich and famous. lol. It's just fun to ride the coat tails of someone with a passion such as yours. Think about it. You'll obviously be doing this for years to come, and you might find unexpected needs somewhere down the line.

Martha


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hello Martha,

You raise some very interesting points, and I will take your advice to "think about it." This year I will have my largest zinnia garden ever, and for the time being I can grow all the zinnia seed that I can produce. But that could change. It is hard to predict the future and I "might find unexpected needs somewhere down the line."

"...when you become rich and famous. lol."

LOL indeed. I started this hobby purely to have fun and not to make money. It has turned out to be more fun than I expected and I continue to be surprised by the zinnias. As a hobby, it is something I spend money on -- soil amendments, soluble nutrients, indoor lights, a new garden tool, there is always something I want or need to further the hobby. And that part is fun, too.

For the time being I am more interested in discovering what zinnias can do than in developing stable strains. Although zinnias are showing me some "new looks" that probably are worthy of becoming new strains. But I think I am years away from having stable strains of new zinnias worthy of introduction. I will cross that bridge when and if I come to it.

As to whether developing new zinnias could become a cooperative multi-person endeavor, that is something to think about. There are some issues and problems associated with that, but we can discuss them in more detail in future messages.

The weather here was mild today and I planted the East half of my third tunnel to Burpeeana Giants. The low tunnels house four rows of zinnias, which amounts to one of my "standard beds". One of my goals is to select out some good separate color strains of Burpeeana Giants, including a white strain. Those will also be useful for some interesting crosses with some of my "exotic" strains.

Speaking of which, I notice that one of my current tubular specimens reminds me somewhat of a Lantana bloom.

That is actually the same specimen that appeared in my last picture, from a somewhat different angle so that more of the bloom is at least partially in focus. My photographic skills could use some work. Incidentally, all of my photos in this Part 24 thread have larger versions that will open in a separate window if you click on the picture. As I mentioned previously, hit the F11 key to "clean up" the big picture window, and after you have seen the big picture, hit the F11 key again to bring back the tabs to let you close that window to return back here.

I am curious to see what will happen if I cross some of my tubular and star-petaled specimens with big zinnias like the Burpeeanas. More later.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

I have a rare treat today. An empty house. My husband is driving to Iowa to visit his parents, my two teenagers are with their dad for spring break, and my two "foster" teenagers are at friends' for the night. So, I took my quiet time to sow 8 milk jugs of zinnia seeds for my butterfly/pollinator garden. I also spent an hour wandering the garden, picking up fallen branches and pulling aside the collected leaves to peek at the first tiny green perennial sprouts. I am in heaven! My next goal is to sit and make paper tubes for my solitary bee nests. This is a new endeavor for me this year. I've been reading about the native pollinators that have been here since before honeybees were imported from Europe. They are quite amazing, but are threatened, just as many valuable insect populations. One easy help humans can provide is appropriate nesting spaces, since these bees normally use holes produced by woodpeckers or rodents or beetles, or hollow reeds. These sites are less and less available. Anyone interested in learning more can search "Mason Bees" or "The Xerces Society". I think I spelled that correctly.

Hope everyone else is having a lovely spring day. The sun is even shining here!

Martha


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi everyone,

Well, I got my second tunnel planted yesterday afternoon. I am doing them in reverse order, 3, 2, 1. The contents of the second tunnel are the same as the third one: Whirligigs in the West half and Burpeeanas in the East half. I will be working on the first tunnel today.

I have been meaning to include some green zinnias in my breeding program, and this indoor specimen is the first one that gets breeder status.

It is a Tequilla Lime from Burpee. I like that white center. I wish I had a big white Burpeeana to cross it with, but I don't have any Burpeeanas in bloom right now. So I will cross it with what is in bloom, namely some of my weirdo tubulars and star-petaled crosses. I plan to grow some more green zinnias outside so that I will have the opportunity of crossing them with Burpeeanas and Whirligigs and scabiosa flowered zinnias. More later. Lots to do outside and inside.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - I like that Tequila Lime. Got a notice back from T&M that they were out of stock on the Green Envy, so unless I just luck out in the flower seed display case next time I go to town, I won't be growing any green zinnias this season. I am done with ordering, and must be strong in resisting temptation! I've got the scabious flowered zinnia seed to cross with my cactus, so that's good enough for now.

Your tunnels look good. Wish I could be out digging in the garden myself, but it was only yesterday that the remainder of the flower garden area finally lost its snow cover. Snowdrops and one lone species tulip are the only things showing color. Even the daffodils are only an inch high. It's supposed to rain today, but that's OK, since I really should be inside transplanting tomatoes out of their cells and into the styrofoam cups I use in place of garden pots. I like the cups, since I feel like they breathe more than the plastic pots, and are, of course, lighter than clay pots. And though I tend to reuse them for several years before I toss them out, they're cheap so that I don't feel a twinge about cutting one off a plant if I'm trying to be extra careful about not disturbing its roots while transplanting. Also, they're somewhat pliable, and I can squish an extra row of cups into a flat to save on space, something that is always a premium. :)
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

" ... so unless I just luck out in the flower seed display case next time I go to town, I won't be growing any green zinnias this season. "

Green zinnias were not a priority item for me, either. At times I have seen Green Envy on seed racks, but it is a little too green for my tastes.

" ... since I really should be inside transplanting tomatoes out of their cells and into the styrofoam cups I use in place of garden pots. "

I have used Styrofoam cups in the past, and the bottom part of 2-liter bottles for somewhat larger pots. I went to commercial square pots because they make fuller use of my limited shelf space. And they are reusable for many years.

"I've got the scabious flowered zinnia seed to cross with my cactus, so that's good enough for now. "

They will be good enough for now. Actually, you can get a variety of different good results from scabious x regular zinnia crosses. The F1 crosses can be quite good, and there is an even wider range of forms that you can get in the F2 generation. One of my current indoor zinnias shows scabious influence.

The outer "guard" petals have picked up some size and corrugated texture from some hybrid influences, and its central florets may have picked up some influence from star-tipped mutant genes. I have given that specimen breeder status, and will use its pollen when available, as well as its stigmas for seeds.

Scabious florets can be thought of as short tubular flowers, and I look forward to combining the scabious genes with tubular genes and star-tipped genes. There are a lot of possible recombinations from a mix like that. I would like to get some really huge scabious florets.

I planted the West half of tunnel 1 yesterday, and probably will finish up planting the East half today. That will complete the tunnels plantings. We are having mild and even warm weather currently. Though it has been windy, which complicates sowing seeds without losing them to the wind. But this is Kansas. More later.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hey, Zenman -

I really love the scabious look; am hopeful I can get something almost the size of the cactus flowered, but with that crest on the top. And, of the other older pics you've posted in past forums, I most like the ones with the longer guard petals that have that cactus-y look and the graceful downward-drooping sweep to them. Very elegant.

I made it outside before the rains which look like they will be here any minute. Went to check on perennials, and was pleased to see that most of my transplants from last spring have made it through the cold and are starting to appear - yay!
Also, cleaned the birdhouses, and remounted one that had been blown down. That area of the garden gets the brunt of the west wind blowing up through the valley, but it also has been the favored site of the 5 birdhouses up, occasionally sparking wars between bluebirds and swallows. So far the bluebirds have always lost the battle. I was thinking that maybe I should put up one more house a little further down the hill and closer to the marsh - maybe the bluebirds would accept that, though possibly the swallows would just try to take over that one, too. Anyway, within seconds of my having finished remounting the house onto the tall metal fence pole, before I'd even made it down the ladder, there they were flying over my head! And as soon as I had the ladder down and had moved away, they were in the house. Job well done - how satisfying.

- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

Your birdhouses and birds seem to be an interesting part of your gardening experience. We have a mockingbird that entertains us every evening.

"...am hopeful I can get something almost the size of the cactus flowered, but with that crest on the top. And, of the other older pics you've posted in past forums, I most like the ones with the longer guard petals..."

The guard petals on the scabious zinnias are short and relatively broad, and getting them to be long and relatively narrow does require some recombination. I think that most, perhaps all, of the F1 hybrids I have made between scabious and non-scabious types have had relatively broad guard petals, even when the flower size was increased significantly by crossing the scabious zinnia with a large-flowered zinnia. It is in the F2 recombinant generation when the genes are reshuffled enough to get long narrow guard petals.

That specimen shows apparent Whirligig ancestry with its bicolored guard petals. I think that many of my flower forms that involved long narrow petals had Whirligig ancestry.

My aster flowered zinnias also have long narrow petals, and I think that they also have Whirligig ancestry. Whirligigs have been responsible for many of the variations in my hybrid zinnias, and I continue to grow them for that reason.

I did finish planting the East half of my first tunnel, using newly saved recombinant seeds from my indoor gardening. And I got that tunnel covered. Now to cover tunnel 2 and tunnel 3 before the coming cold spell. It is warm here today. More later.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM -
Just received the final message from T&M - "no Whirligig Zinnias for you!" So - no Whirligigs and no Green Envy. It only took them about 5 separate communications to finish the order - none of these precipitated by me except for my initial order. It's nice to be kept in "the know", but really, that was a little ridiculous for 2 packets of seeds. Not to say confusing, because in one e-mail they say they are crediting me $5.00 for the Green Envy, and in the mail today, along with my "sorry we have no whirligigs", there is a check for $2.86, which if I read this correctly is for the shipping and handling charge. Hmmm...do I really care to go look and see if they've got it right? Nah!

I guess I'll see what I can find at the store next time I'm in town. I won't be able to plant out until the end of May, I'm sure, judging by the weather this year, so I'm not going to start any zinnias indoors until the beginning of May, I've decided. I don't have room under the lights anyway with all the rest of the stuff there.

Just went through a horrendous, power-outing, tree-uprooting, telephone pole undermining, roof-blowing off and flooding two days of storms here. Out of those choices, we experienced the power outage for about 24 hours, and a flooded basement. The basement flooding is not uncommon this time of year, and we have what is called a Michigan basement which is little more than a hole in the ground with a token cement floor (salamanders optional). Normally, we just wade through and throw the sump pump in the drain area and let it do its thing. Unfortunately, the pump does not work without electricity, and - ha-ha, we had never purchased that generator we always talked about. Until now. After many hours of bailing water with 5 gallon buckets, waiting for the dawn when stores would finally open up. Which, as it turns out, they didn't open, because their power was out, too. Oh, they had generators, of course, but not access to the internet apparently, so they couldn't run their computers, I guess. And as we all know, NO ONE seems capable of completing a business transaction these days without one!
But as it turns out, with our bailing (and, let me add, my bailing by myself after the husband went to try and find a generator), and the rain stopping finally, the water level started to go down enough that the drain was able to do its job. When John got back with the generator (after driving from town to another village), the water was gone. But we are ready for the next crisis. :)
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

What a nightmare! I feel for you. And T&M underperformed badly, too. I guess they mean well.

Stokes seems to have Whirligigs back in stock. An ounce for only $3.65 is a good deal, because that amounts to well over a thousand Whirligig seeds. I bought a quarter pound a few years ago and I will just be planting the last of them this year.

I got all three of my tunnels planted and covered just in time for a storm here. High winds, rain, and then this morning, snow. The temperature is milder now and the snow is all gone. I was glad the fabric stayed on the tunnel framework, considering how much wind we had. I was also glad we didn't lose our electricity. Our electric company went on an extensive tree trimming program a couple of months ago, and that seems to have paid off. More later.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM -
Snow - ah yes, I remember that stuff. It looks remarkably like the stuff which is more than an inch deep outside right now as I type this. It started yesterday right on cue. Will give those weather stations their due - they call it pretty close these days. Ours has not melted off yet, but temps are supposed to rise again, so no doubt it will.

Yes, they did an extensive tree trimming in our area year before last. Actually trimming is the wrong word - it was more like a massacre. Don't know for sure what took the power out, but as it was an electrical storm as well as torrential rain and high winds, that could have been a factor.

Glad you didn't lose your fabric - judging by the pics, you look to be in a flat stretch of open farmland, and I know how bad the winds can get here without some windbreak.
- Alex

This post was edited by samhain10 on Tue, Apr 15, 14 at 8:41


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

"Snow - ah yes, I remember that stuff. It looks remarkably like the stuff which is more than an inch deep outside right now as I type this."

Chuckle. You are significantly farther north than I am, but eventually you will get a chance at outdoor zinnia gardening. We both can spend the next few weeks planning and strategizing.

"...really love the scabious look; am hopeful I can get something almost the size of the cactus flowered, but with that crest on the top."

With my expanded garden space, I am going to move in that direction myself. Scabious recombinants can vary greatly in their guard petals, from no guard petals at all (I'll show some pictures of those in a later message), to nice long guard petals like you mention. So there are several possible strains based just on the nature of the guard petals. And for long guard petals, they can be narrow or wide, down-curved or up-curved, smooth tipped or toothed. Unlike Gregor Mendel's peas and their single-gene traits, almost all zinnia traits seem to be controlled by multiple genes, which opens up an almost unlimited range of possibilities in zinnias.

I will show a few examples of scabious recombinants from my past zinnia gardens to show some of the possible directions to go with scabious recombinants. The florets on this one had long sharp points.

That specimen calls attention to another characteristic, namely the angle that the guard petals make with the flower cone. This next scabious recombinant was described by one person as "an explosion in a paint factory".

Zinnias are full of surprises. I'm not sure what was going on genetically with that specimen, but I kind of like it. It reminded me a bit of a Parrot Tulip, and encourages me to grow more scabious recombinants. This next one I would describe as "informal".

Its guard petals were irregularly placed and there was some variation in its florets, with a few bordering on being petaloids. Something about this next one reminded me a bit of a Cosmos, maybe because of that "windblown" look.

This next one had a "perky" look that appealed to me. Its guard petals had some upcurve, forming a dish that held a well organized floret center.

And those guard petals were suffused toward white at the base, which was a good look. A strain based on just that flower in a complete range of zinnia colors would be a good thing. This next one reminded me somewhat of a Water Lily.

Its central floret grouping could use some improvement, but those huge out-reaching guard petals had a definite "look".

I plan to grow a lot of scabious recombinants this year, looking for new forms, cross pollinating them for more variation, and selfing selected specimens to "nudge" them toward stable strains. More later.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - These are all beautiful. If it were a simple matter of mix and match attributes, I think what I'd like would be guard petals somewhere in between the informal and the cosmos-type, but a little closer together, if not overlapping - but maybe downward facing like the one at the top; and a central cone with the lovely florets of that first one. Color optional - one of each, please! ;)
Weather here is still yucky, though the temps are supposed to rise in a slow steady fashion for the next week. Went out yesterday in a still chilly wind and did a small amount of garden cleanup, just to appease my inner child who is wildly impatient for winter to END - period.
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

"I think what I'd like would be guard petals somewhere in between the informal and the cosmos-type, but a little closer together, if not overlapping - but maybe downward facing like the one at the top..."

I may have more than one preference for the guard petals. I kind of like the huge petals on that last "Water Lily" specimen. I think that I would like "toothy" guard petals, although I haven't seen that variation yet. I also like long, thin guard petals, like on the picture I posted last Saturday.

I also like the no-guard-petals-at-all variation, in which the flower head consists of just various variations of petal-colored florets.

Some of those specimens continue to build the central floret zone until it becomes almost a complete sphere.

That bud in the left-hand foreground is actually on the same plant. Notice its similarity to a marigold bloom.

I have had several zinnias that formed almost complete sphere blooms, and I rather like the look, at least as a novelty. It might be worthwhile trying to develop a strain with spherical balls as blooms.

"...and a central cone with the lovely florets of that first one."

I have several goals for the central cone, including that "perky" cone in the orange-and-white flower in the previous message. I also like the idea of the "complete sphere" cones, and I think I would also like a very tall central cone. And I would like to see some fantastic new stuff in the central cones. I am open to any cone surprises that the zinnias might have in store for me.

"Color optional - one of each, please! ;) "

Amen to that. That is one reason I will be planting a bunch more Burpeeanas in-ground this Spring. I want to build up my color palette of big zinnias for color-range-extending cross pollinating. More later. I have some indoor gardening to do. I really enjoy it.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - isn't that interesting with the wildly contrasting bloom shapes on the same plant? Almost as if it was a sport - do you see this often? Yes, it is very like a marigold - of course, the similarity is enhanced by the characteristic marigold yellow.
That first pic is very attractive, but I guess I have to say again that the globe-shape isn't as appealing to me, really in just about any flower. Occasionally some of my papaver somniferums are heavily doubled to be almost globular, but they are not nearly as pretty to me as the semi-doubles. However, I'm going to be just starting with this hybridizing thingie, so I won't be sticking up my nose at any interesting variations that I might be so fortunate to get! :)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

"... isn't that interesting with the wildly contrasting bloom shapes on the same plant? Almost as if it was a sport - do you see this often?"

Yes, it is interesting, and kind of mysterious, because I do see it fairly often. It does seem that one zinnia branch can be so different from another that you wonder if there is a genetic difference from one branch to another. New rose varieties do occasionally arise from bud sports, but I had the impression that bud sports are fairly rare. This situation with zinnias varying significantly from branch to branch is not very rare, at least not for me. Maybe it has to do with me doing so much cross pollination. Or maybe that is just the nature of zinnias. This is another of the zinnia mysteries for me.

"... so I won't be sticking up my nose at any interesting variations that I might be so fortunate to get! :)"

That's a good attitude. I spend a fair amount of time just looking my zinnias over to see what I have got. That is another "zen aspect" of zinnia growing. Noticing more small details, or not-so-small details. The center color can be the same as the petal color, or completely different. I now notice the diameter of the zinnia trunk at ground level, to gauge how strong the plant might be. That can vary quite a lot. I also notice the diameter of the stem attachment to the flower. And the size and shape of the leaves. Usually the leaves and branches arise from the main stem in pairs, but occasionally a node will give rise to three leaves and three branches. I refer to those as "threesies" and label the characteristic as 3Z. Getting a strain of 3Z zinnias is a quirky goal of mine.

I hope you will consider growing some Whirligigs, because cross-pollinating with their interspecific background can give rise to totally new characteristics in your second and third generation zinnias. I like unusual petal shapes, and the progeny of some of my Whirligig x Cactus crosses have produced petal forms that neither parent had. One of my favorites is a long thin petal that is flat. By flat, I mean that it is neither rolled upward (as in JG's extreme rolls) or downward, as in many of the cactus flowered variants. I refer to those long thin petals as "aster flowered" for no particularly good reason. I will show a few examples of long, thin, flat petals.

That's not a particularly attractive flower, but you probably won't get one like it from a commercial seed packet. The petals on this next one aren't quite so regular, but they follow the theme, somewhat.

This specimen was a classic Aster Flowered zinnia, and one of my favorite breeders. It has definite Whirligig ancestry.

The long, flat, thin petal form has the advantage that in some cases the petals can grow quite long. I called this breeder my "Pink Shaggy Dog".

The lower petals on that bloom were over 4 inches long, which is pretty remarkable if you think about it. If, instead of hanging down like they did, they had stood straight out like some zinnia petals do, that zinnia flower would have been over 8 inches in diameter !!! Unfortunately, long thin flat petals are structurally weak, and do hang down.

But I have had some specimens whose petals were corrugated enough, or arched enough, that their petals were mechanically capable of projecting straight out. My "dinosaur mutant" was one such form, and I will discuss it in a subsequent message. One of my breeding goals is to get really big zinnias in the 8-inches plus size range. And I think that, oddly enough, Whirligigs may be the "secret sauce" that makes that possible. More later.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - I love all of these, but especially the one you call the classic aster-flowered. That and variations on it would be an ideal for me to strive for.
Yes, I remember your talking about plant structure, and wouldn't have thought of it otherwise, but of course that is an important point. It was very disappointing to me when I first bought some Double Click cosmos, and discovered that unlike the single flowered and some other semi-doubles like the Psyche series, these had heads so heavy that they all hung down. I suppose it might have just been that batch, but all of the plants from that packet seemed to have that problem. The stems weren't strong enough to hold the heads up. Time to go, but here's a pic of one of my papaver somniferums from last year - I love poppies!
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

You guys! I'm so sad!!!!!

I had direct sown some zinnia seeds in my zinnia bed, because supposedly we weren't going to have more frosts... and then it frosted!! Literally the very next night.

Do you think it killed my seeds??? :(


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Desirai,

There is a good chance it didn't kill your seeds, simply because they weren't up yet. In the past, I have had "volunteer" zinnias come up in my garden from seeds that accidentally spent the whole Winter in my garden. There are a couple of ways that might happen.

I remove most of my dead zinnias in the Fall after a killing frost. It's possible that some seeds might have fallen on the ground during my Fall cleanup. But it is also possible that the volunteer zinnia seeds were knocked out of a zinnia seed head by birds. Some birds, finches for example, will eat zinnia seeds from the seed heads. Freezing might kill some zinnia seeds, but at least some zinnia seeds survive it.

Sprinkle your seedbed every day and there is a good chance some zinnias will come up. Once they are up, they are vulnerable to frost.

ZM

This post was edited by zenman on Sat, Apr 19, 14 at 9:51


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hey Desirai,
I'm with the Zenman on that one - your seeds are probably fine since they wouldn't have had time to come up yet. However, don't know how big your bed is, but if you see on the forecast that there's a possibility of frost in the future, you might want to have an old sheet or light blanket ready to throw over it before you go to bed. If your seedlings are starting to come up, position some pots through the bed to hold the blanket up so it doesn't inadvertently crush any seedlings. And if it's windy where you are, don't forget to put some weights around the edges. Can't tell you how envious I am that you're out there planting already... :)
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Well I went out there and poked around in the bed, it seems that some are starting to sprout but I think you were right, they hadn't sprouted before the frost hit so they seem to be fine! :)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Samhain,
Where are you in Michigan? I'm in Grand Rapids, and I have wintersown zinnias sprouting in milk jugs outside. I spent several hours this weekend clearing the leaves from around the perennial stalks from last year. Almost everything has green sprouts peeking up. Even with the harsh winter we had, my Rudbeckia hirta and snapdragons made it through and are greening up at the bases. Don't worry. You'll have blossoms before you know it.

Martha


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Martha -
We're an hour north of you near Mecosta. We make trips into GR now and again, and it's been my experience that you guys are as much as 3 weeks ahead of us, planting -wise.
Yeah, I worked out in the garden a long time yesterday myself, cleaning things up. Most perennials are showing at least a little bit, though there are a few that I'm digging around saying "where are you?" The first daffodil could open up today! Supposed to be rain today, too.
If I was really on top of things, I should be clearing a bed and planting some spinach and peas, but will instead go into the shop and do some other work. Sigh. :)
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi all,

Alex, it looks like you will be able to do photographic justice to any zinnias whose pictures you want to show here. That poppy picture is a great close-up. Just out of curiosity, what kind of camera did you use to take that?

And everyone. I have been touting Whirligigs as a good thing to cross your other things with, as a means of eventually getting some new things in your zinnia patch. This is a picture of a past cross between a Whirligig and a Burpeeana Giant, to give you some idea of what such an F1 hybrid might look like.

That was a fairly large flower, approaching 6 inches in diameter, and it showed some of the cactus characteristics from the Burpeeana (which was probably the female in the cross). It also shows some of the two-tone characteristics inherited from the Whirligig pollen donor. But as is usually the case with these Burpeeana x Whirligig crosses, the border between the two colors has become suffused, which or may not be to your liking. And the colors themselves have become blended. (Neither parent had these colors.)

The important thing isn't whether this particular "look" is what you are going for, but that this is reasonably certain to be an F1 hybrid between the chosen parents. There are few little hints of some unusual petal shapes here, but nothing too obvious. The really interesting stuff is yet to come -- in the progeny from this F1 cross. You can get those progeny by selfing this bloom, or by crossing it with a different zinnia bloom, which could be either an out-of-the-packet zinnia, or a different F1 cross you have made. Or you could do both, self and cross.

Regardless of how you get those progeny, you will get F2-generation recombination of the genes from the two parents of this cross. Those genetic recombinations can and will produce traits that you haven't seen yet, not in the parents, and not in this F1 cross of other F1 crosses that you might choose it to cross it with.

I will go into the genetic details of how these totally new traits can come into being in the F2 and subsequent generations. If you are familiar with the cellular processes of mitosis and meiosis, then you know where this discussion is going. There are some interesting implications of "virtual zinnias" that I want to call to your attention. But enough technical stuff for the moment. More later.

ZM



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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

As much as I love all the cool colors and shapes you are discovering, Zen, my central purpose for growing zinnias is to have a season-long source of pollen and nectar for the insects that might visit my garden. But, since you have examined each variety so closely, to accomplish your crosses, you would probably know which varieties are most likely to produce larger quantities of pollen and nectar. If you were to recommend one zinnia type for the insect lover, which would it be? And, can you imagine a cross that might produce an even better provider of nutrients for my bugs? Of course, I'm daily increasing the variety of native plants and flowering shrubs present in my garden. I just wondered if I could maximize the value of my zinnias.

Martha


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Martha,

"...you would probably know which varieties are most likely to produce larger quantities of pollen and nectar. If you were to recommend one zinnia type for the insect lover, which would it be?"

It would be Zowie! Yellow Flame. It was a 2006 All-America Selection winner. It has a high cone that puts out a load of new pollen florets each day. I linked you to the Park Seed listing, because Parks have better descriptions of their products than most anyone. But you could shop around for a lower price per seed. Since it is an award-winning F1 Hybrid, its seeds are quite expensive.

And when you grow them this year, don't forget to violate the widespread admonition against saving seeds from F1 hybrids. By saving seeds from your Zowies you will save a ton of money and, yes, they won't "come true from seeds" because they are F1 hybrids. All the better, because many of your F2 Zowies will resemble the parent, and many more will be somewhat different. So pick the best ones to save seeds from, and you are in business breeding your own super-butterfly zinnia strain.

Like I said, I really like to read the descriptions that Park Seed has, because their copy writers are the best. But for possibly some slightly lower cost Zowie sources, you might take a look at Harris Seed. Another source, Stokes Seeds usually has some better prices for amounts bigger than a packet. And another bulk seller that will sell retail is Hazzard's Seeds.

I personally don't care for Zowie! Yellow Flame, because as Parks says, it has a "vintage form". I don't like zinnias that "throw pollen", but butterflies do. I do like zinnias that have the Zowie color scheme.

I liked that one because it didn't have a tall central cone crowned with pollen florets, but it did have the bright tricolor color scheme.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Thank-you so much! That is exactly the info I was hoping for. Your knowledge is definitely a gift to those around you. I'm off to order seeds!

Martha


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM -
That poppy picture is a great close-up. Just out of curiosity, what kind of camera did you use to take that?

I'm using my Nikon d40X. I don't have a macro lens for it, though I do for my old manual SLR Canon TX. Unfortunately, those lens won't fit on the Nikon, though I understand some Nikon lens will fit on Canon and other models. I enjoy closeups; it's another world to explore.

Yeah, I'll definitely have to pick up a packet of whirligigs when I go to the store next. Those won't be hard to find, I'm sure. I never was particularly attracted to them before, but you've got me convinced that I need them for my upcoming experiments. Let the fun begin! Oh, and here's another pic taken around the same time as the poppy.
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Alright then - was out and about today and picked up some whirligig and Green Envy Zinnia seeds. Am ready to make all sorts of exotic crosses. :)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

"...and picked up some whirligig and Green Envy Zinnia seeds. Am ready to make all sorts of exotic crosses. :)"

You are indeed. I can hardly wait to see some pictures of your zinnias. Incidentally, that sunflower and insect picture sure looks like you used a close-up lens. It's quite good. Which brings up the subject of your photo gear.

"I'm using my Nikon d40X. I don't have a macro lens for it, though I do for my old manual SLR Canon TX. Unfortunately, those lens won't fit on the Nikon, though I understand some Nikon lens will fit on Canon and other models. I enjoy closeups; it's another world to explore. "

Me too. It would be great if you could use that Canon macro lens on your Nikon D40X. I am thinking that there should be a lens mount adapter that would let you mount your Canon lenses on your Nikon. Do you think that this lens mount adapter might do the trick? I am fairly sure that adapter will fit on your D40X. One user reported a problem, but most users had no problem mounting the adapter on their Nikon. The only question is whether your Canon lenses are of the Canon FD or Canon FL type. That adapter is supposed to accommodate both of those Canon lens types. But do read all the user reviews of this adapter. For one thing, you would be stuck in a purely manual mode. But if you could get a macro lens on your Nikon for less than $40, that could be very cost effective.

Another approach would be screw in close-up diopter filters that would screw into the filter threads on your Nikon lens. I would link you to some candidate close-up attachments, but I don't know the screw thread diameter of the Nikon lens(es) that you are using. The advantage of screw-on close-up lenses is that you would retain the auto focusing and auto exposure of your Nikon. You might get some spherical aberration from that, but there is software that can correct such aberrations in post processing.

I am busy saving seeds from my indoor zinnias to get ready to plant them outdoors in the near future. We are supposed to get some rain tomorrow. More later.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

This post was edited by zenman on Wed, Apr 23, 14 at 13:15


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - without jumping up and checking, I'm pretty sure I checked all those adaptor possibilities and found that they wouldn't work. I'm not sure but I think the Canon lens was FG. I spent a good while researching (though I seem to have zero retention of the facts now); sat in on some chats, and all told me it wasn't going to work. My Canon is an antique - literally. I first picked it up over 35 years ago, in a flea market, already used even then. But as my friend who was with me and very much into photography told me, it was an excellent camera. And so it was. It was completely manual, so I learned a few things about taking a good photo that I might not have otherwise. But don't expect me to understand or talk any technical jargon. I have a hopelessly selective memory. You can come up with the name of some obscure American author from the 50s or 60s and I might be able to say "Oh yeah, he wrote such and such and I think I have a couple in backstock", but as John likes to tell customers: "Sure, we remember this stuff, but other than that, we have to have a map to get home at night." :)
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

Canon FG doesn't "ring a bell" on Google, but I accept that we are talking antiques here, and an adapter probably isn't worth pursuing. I used a Canon EOS SLR for many years, until the film back door eventually broke off. It was apparently a metal fatigue problem, and it would cost more to repair than the camera was worth, so that was the end of my film photography days. I used borrowed digital cameras until I purchased my Nikon D3200 when they first came out. More later. You are getting great pictures with what you have and, as they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - see? I told you don't expect me to know the technical stuff! Anyway, the "G" I was remembering was from the Nikon lens which says: Nikon DX -- AF-S NIKKOR 18-55 mm 1:3.5-5.6GII ED. Only remembered that there was a "G" in there somewhere. The Canon is a TX, but the lens on it at the moment (not the macro, but the regular 50 mm) says just inside when I remove it from the camera: Q704. I really loved that camera. As I also purchased a used zoom lens some years back that I've never really gotten much use out of, I think eventually I will pick the Canon up again and play with it. Digital does spoil you though, doesn't it? Not having to turn film in to have it processed is amazing, and a whole heck of alot cheaper!
One final note on a totally different subject - I just have to share this because it blew my mind when I saw it. This past spring I cut new poles for my tomato trellis - culling some of the small trees that grow so freely around the property. We're not talking small pencil sized saplings - these are young trees several inches in diameter, boxelder and walnut. I'd wanted to clear some of them out anyway, since they were too close together. I noticed halfway through the gardening season that one of the boxelder poles which was a good 8-1/2" in diameter had sprouted some leaves along the trunk. Not surprising - there's still life in that trunk for awhile after cutting. Yesterday I was out cleaning things in the garden. As I was taking down the trellis (I rotate crops every year, so I will be planting the tomatoes in a new area) I noticed that same pole had some rather longish sprouts off of it that looked like they were still alive. I dug up the pole to find that it had actually rooted! I've taken cuttings of things before, but to get an 8 ft foot tall, 8-1/2" diameter cutting to root is definitely a first!
- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

That's a great story about your 8-foot tall "cutting". Reminds me of some of those movies in which magical trees come to life and walk. In the past I have had some sticks that I used as row markers put out leaves, but never any that struck roots, that I know of. Incidentally, you can grow zinnias from cuttings, if you use a bactericide like Physan 20 to keep the soft cuttings from rotting.

I found this Wiki write-up about your Canon TX. Interestingly, it does have a standard Canon FD lens mount, which means that the lens mount adapter that I linked to above should make your Nikon D40X capable of accepting a Canon FD lens. And since your macro lens fits your Canon TX, your Canon macro must have been a Canon FD lens, or at least compatible with the Canon FD mount interface.

Incidentally, the lens adapter that I linked to is probably not the only lens adapter that would fit your Nikon D40X. It was just the first one that I came across in the Amazon website. There are quite a few different lens adapters available. Once again, not trying to sell you on the idea of putting your Canon macro lens on your Nikon. Just pointing out a possible option for you. The floral pictures you are taking with your current rig are more than capable of showing your future zinnias.

"...I think eventually I will pick the Canon up again and play with it. "

By "play with it", do you mean take pictures with it? Most of the companies (including Kodak) that made 35mm film have discontinued producing it. I don't recall having seen any 35mm film cartridges for sale recently, although it has been many years since I have been in a camera store. Fujifilm might still support 35mm film. And the place that developed it might offer a service to provide a digital version of your images. I have an Epson scanner that I use to recover digital versions of my old chemical film images.

We had about an inch of rain this morning, along with some high winds, lightning, and a few pea-sized hail. The soil is wet now, but tomorrow I think I will plant a few zinnias in-ground outside, taking a bit of a chance. The long range forecast calls for some low nighttime temps in the 30's next week. Perhaps not freezing, though.

I plan to plant some old seeds of a discontinued zinnia variety called "Zig Zag". It was somewhat similar to Whirligigs, and I suspect it may have been developed by inter-planting Whirligigs with other larger zinnias. In fact, that last picture I posted, that tricolored one, was a Zig Zag. It really annoys me when they discontinue a zinnia variety. Some very interesting zinnia varieties have "bit the dust". More later.

ZM

This post was edited by zenman on Thu, Apr 24, 14 at 16:41


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - yes, I'd certainly be interested in finding an adaptor that worked! I guess I'll have to look into it all again, unless you can backtrack and give me the links other than Wiki that told you about those adaptors. I swear I looked at all that stuff, and had been convinced the adaptors wouldn't work, but I'd love to be proven wrong. Wait a minute, maybe it's the macro-lens I should be checking...Oh, later - so much to do right now.

Yeah, why do they have to discontinue strains that are good? I keep looking for a particular broccoli called Cruiser that I thought was great - gone from the catalogs, alas.

Now really - you see how you are? Just because you have moved on in the modern world, you think the old world doesn't exist anymore. Of course you can still buy 35 mm film! Not that I have in a while. Maybe the most recent time was last year. I have a scanner that will scan negatives, and I had them develop the film, but not print it, since I could save it digitally from the scanner.

We are ready for some more rain - maybe tomorrow they say.

- Alex


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Alex,

" I'd certainly be interested in finding an adaptor that worked! I guess I'll have to look into it all again, unless you can backtrack and give me the links other than Wiki that told you about those adaptors. "

Well, I think there is a really good chance that the adapter I originally linked to would work. I'll repeat the link here. It is the Fotodiox Lens Mount Adapter, Canon FD, FL Lens to Nikon Camera, for Nikon D7100, D7000, D5200, D5100, D3100, D300, D300S, D200, D100, D50, D60, D70, D80, D90, D40, D40x, N70s, D80, D800, D800e, D4, D3, D2, D1, D300, D300s, and D200. You can read the product description and then read the 26 customers reviews that Amazon has published for the product. Amazon has a good reputation for letting you return a product if it doesn't work for you or turns out to be defective. With no hassle they let me return a telescopic sight for a rifle that didn't live up to my expectations. I think if that adapter didn't work for you that you could return it.

"I swear I looked at all that stuff, and had been convinced the adaptors wouldn't work, but I'd love to be proven wrong."

Well, at the time you checked, there may not have been an adapter to use Canon FD lenses on Nikon SLRs. That adapter includes compatibility with Nikon D7100, D7000, D5200 cameras, which are relatively "late model" cameras. And almost all the lens adapters on Amazon are designed to adapt Nikon lenses for use on Canon cameras. Only the one I linked, and another that was out of stock, were to adapt Canon lenses for use on Nikon cameras.

"Wait a minute, maybe it's the macro-lens I should be checking..."

You should verify that it is a Canon FD or FL lens, and that it is in serviceable condition.

" I have a scanner that will scan negatives, and I had them develop the film, but not print it, since I could save it digitally from the scanner."

Impressive. So you also can extract digital images from all those old film negatives. I have an old Epson Perfection V750 Pro that can scan transparencies or opaque material. A good many years ago I bought a Stereo Realist camera and took a bunch of stereo slides. I have scanned a few, and made large prints from them for my sister, but I should take the time to scan a bunch more of them. It has three selectable scanning resolutions, 4800 dpi, 6400 dpi, and 9600 dpi. The higher the resolution, the slower the scan. And I use the maximum resolution on my stereo slides, because each side of a slide is only 23 x 24 mm. Not much to work with. Fortunately, Kodachrome is almost grainless, and I can get decent 8x10s from a stereo slide. I have some software (onOne's Perfect Resize) that could let me go bigger, but I haven't tried that yet.

I have been thinking about getting a beam splitter for my Nikon D3200 so I could take some 3D pictures with it. And maybe some 3D video. It would be "cool" to take some 3D footage of a wooly worm eating away at one of my zinnias. Maybe not. My zinnia gardens have a surprisingly diverse ecology, with a lot of opportunities for close-up photography and videography. More later.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi everyone,

As I prepare to plant my first zinnias in-ground today, I am reviewing my objectives for this year. Last year was devoted mainly to crossing the star-pointed petal mutation securely into my gene pool, and I think that has been successful. So this year I will be returning to some of my previous goals.

One of my favorite zinnia variations has long flat rather narrow petals. I refer to these as "Aster flowered" because they have some characteristics in common with Crego Asters. Normally these petals would be like strips of confetti and just hang down like "limp noodles", but some specimens have long, thin, narrow petals with linear corrugations that give the petal structural strength to stand out straight from the central flower cone, like this one.

Like all of my pictures here in Part 24, you can see a larger version of the picture in its own window by clicking on the picture and then use the F11 key to hide the new window's heading, which gives the picture full use of that window. You can then come back here easily by hitting the F11 key again to restore the window heading, which gives you access to a tab to close that window.

There has been a lot of crossing in the ancestry of that zinnia, so it has one of those hard-to-name colors that zinnias can have. Many zinnias have very subtle colors, like the paint chips in home stores or housepaint stores. I like to cross white zinnias with other colors to get pastel colors, and then make crosses using those new colors.

I will be intercrossing aster flowered specimens this year to add more diversity to the strain. And I will begin the creation of new examples of the Aster flowered strain by making new crosses between Burpeeana Giants and Whirligigs or Zig Zags. I hope eventually to get Aster flowered zinnias in a complete range of zinnia colors, which is probably well over a hundred different colors. Paint comes in many colors, and so do zinnias. More later.

ZM


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

ZM - thanks very much for the link. I'll save it to look at later when my mind is clearer. Have just been up most of the night with a sick cat. :(
The aster-flowered zinnia you've posted is gorgeous, and the color is beautiful! Probably my favorite of all you've put up.


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hey everyone! Really sorry that I haven't posted in a couple weeks, but it got really busy around here preparing for Easter and some other things came up, well, I just haven't got around to making a post. I have some pretty exciting news!
My "early" zinnias are starting to flower!
Woohoo!!!
Right on time, too, because I was just thinking about how they need to go in the ground in the next couple days. There's some severe storms headed this way, but after that, I'm gonna set them into the ground somewhere.


These little guys have been outside for the past week or maybe more, in a partly shady spot, without much protection from the wind. You can see that there's a bent pepper in front of the tallest zinnia, and that's because I moved it out when it was too windy the first day. The poor thing just blew over, but it recovered. The zinnias were less damaged because they were more compact. The temperatures here have been fantastic, around 65-75f high, >40f low. I'm pretty sure that we're past the last frost, but we had snow in May last year, so I'm keeping an eye out on the extended forecasts.
If the temperature does dip down and there is a frost, I will cover anything that needs it. And the temperature should go back up pretty soon after that.

This is also a good time to be starting seeds outside for me. I'm still going with my original plan, to start them in trays until they have some real leaves, then poke them in the ground on a calm and warm evening. By the morning, most of them will recover. By the end of the second day, if you didn't do any major damage, all of them will be 90% healthy and growing again. I really like the speed of zinnias, how they grow so fast and recover so fast, how they bloom early and so on. While these ones are attracting some bugs, the next batch of zinnias can be growing. Things should be in full swing by the heat of summer.

I'm still thinking of a pruning scheme that fits my style, and for now I think I will grow these zinnias to first bloom, allow the bloom to expire and then cut them about half way on the stem, to promote bushy plants. For the new ones, I may cut them earlier than that to get them to grow out instead of blooming.

Outdoor growing of zinnias is awesome, because it's so little effort for great plants.


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RE: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 24

Hi Telescody,

Those zinnias look great. I am impressed that their seed leaves, the "cotyledons", are still on and green looking. If a zinnia runs a little short on any nutrients, it "steals" what it needs from the cotyledons, and they shrivel. Even with all of my fancy nutrients, I have frequently lost the cotyledons by first bloom. So, kudos to your gardening skills, and your use of HID lights. I am impressed. I might try some HID this coming Winter, but for the time being you are ahead of me in indoor gardening. Your growing techniques are master-gardener class. Great photographic techniques, too.

"I'm still going with my original plan, to start them in trays until they have some real leaves, then poke them in the ground on a calm and warm evening."

I'm going to copy you on that. I think we have had our last freeze, and probably our last frost as well, but the soil temperature is still pretty cool. None of my in-ground plantings are up yet, except for those in my low tunnels, and they are not as far along as I had hoped. I do have some choice seeds that deserve special attention, and I will be starting them inside for the next few days.

"I really like the speed of zinnias, how they grow so fast and recover so fast, how they bloom early and so on."

Amen to that. The speed of zinnias is one of my favorite things about them. That, and their uncanny ability to surprise me.

"I'm still thinking of a pruning scheme that fits my style, and for now I think I will grow these zinnias to first bloom, allow the bloom to expire and then cut them about half way on the stem, to promote bushy plants."

I think that is a good strategy to start with. If the first bloom is really interesting, I designate the plant as a breeder and start using its pollen to cross-pollinate other breeders, and to self it as well. If the first bloom is disappointing, I cull the plant to make more growing room for its neighbors. If it is not too close to its neighbors, I pull the plant up by its roots, shake the soil off, and put the plant in the trash. If it is so close to its neighbors that pulling the plant up might damage their root systems, I use a hand pruner to snip the culled plant off at the soil line and let its root system eventually become part of the soil.

"For the new ones, I may cut them earlier than that to get them to grow out instead of blooming."

To broaden my gene pool, I am planting quite a few Burpeeana Giants this year, and for seed packet zinnias I frequently just pinch the bud out at about the stage your pictured buds are in. I try not to get any leaves when I do that, but I usually get a few anyway, because they are so close to the bud. I try to keep as many main stem nodes as possible, to maximize the number of lateral branches.

"Outdoor growing of zinnias is awesome, because it's so little effort for great plants."

I am in total agreement. I am really looking forward to my outdoor zinnia experience this year. More later.

ZM


 o
Continuing this message thread in Part 25

Hi everyone,

Since this message thread has gone beyond 100 messages and is a bit unwieldy, we are continuing this message thread over on It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 25. See you all over there.

ZM


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