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| Rather than ask this question added onto someone else's post.. My statement is this: I can't hardly grow weeds from seed. My question is this: What is the basic germination and growing set-up required for starting seeds (in general)? Rather than explain what keeps going wrong, because the numbers are Legion, I'd rather ask right here and right now what the trick is to growing things from seed. Ok, ok... a few examples of "fail": Seed gets fuzzy mold but does or doesn't begin to germinate Seed germinates then wilts and dies immediately (at about 1/4" growth) Seedlings grow tall, develop their first set of true leaves, then lay down and die Seedlings develop normally, then curl up and die as soon as they're planted in a larger pot (for potted varieties) |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Sounds like a microbe problem. There's a fungal disease called "damp off" that kills young seedlings. You could spray with a dilute fungicide and see if that helps. And, are you keeping them too wet? I have a hard time, too, but it's usually because I don't water enough and they dry out. |
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| You should spend some time reading in the "Growing from seed" forum here. they have a faq section that is very useful. To cold, to wet and not enough light would be my first guess. I use the cheapest 4ft shop lights ($10) with one warm bulb and one cool bulb - nothing fancy. I had many of the problems that you have had my first try, but I was trying to grow them on a window sill in a pretty cold room. Stay away from those "peat pellets" they are very hard to keep at the right moisture level. I use little 3oz plastic cups for my starter pots (with holes punched in to them) and move them up to 9, 12 or 16 oz cups according to need. Do use seed starting mix - any kind. It is sterile and much less prone to damp off and other fungal disease. You need warmth for most seed to germinate - 75 degrees or so. I havent bought a heat matt but they are recommended. Instead I place the trays on top of one of my sets of shop lights and enclose it to hold in the heat. I check my little ones twice a day. :) |
Here is a link that might be useful: growing from seed
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- Posted by shear_stupidity 9B (My Page) on Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 8:22
| Thanks, guys! |
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| You just can not consider ALL seed together. Many seeds require some kind of pre-treatment to overcome a natural defense that prevents them from germinating when the conditions for the plant growth are not right. Each plant you intend to grow from seed should be looked up in some kind of reference to see what must be done. There is on line a reference from T&M that covers thousands of seeds. I downloaded the whole thing and keep it in a binder in my greenhouse. Al |
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- Posted by shear_stupidity (My Page) on Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 9:18
| I don't know what T & M is? |
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| Shear, DO spend some time in the Growing From Seed forum. You'll see that there are many ways to get the job done......and even more that will fail. Successful seed propagation requires a good, porous medium that will not turn mucky nor slow to drain. Bottom heat is important (some feel essential) during the seed germination period. Very good light is essential, either from the sun in a greenhouse or a good artificial set-up. Knowledge of how to manage moisture is key. The right medium will make that challenge very easy. Air circulation is important, as is fertilization after the seeds germinate. Your choice of containers can make or break the project. I use a two step system whereby the seeds are all germinated in one or two flats which can be very inexpensively heated. Shortly after germination, I transplant the seedlings into waiting cell packs where they grow until ready to plant in the ground. In your climate, the plants can probably be grown on outside in the natural light and air. I agree with the very sound advice about researching what each variety requires. Some seeds, for example, must have light in order to germinate. |
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| Overwatering and insufficient light could cause pretty much all those problems and are by far the commonest sources of failure with growing from seed. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 13:51
| my quantum leap was in discovering various MEDIA ... if you insist on using canal sludge.. you shouldnt wonder why you have problems .. seedlings need SUPREME drainage .. cant get that from dirt.. my second quantum leap.. was sterilizing my seed media.. so it was 'clean' ... you dotn have to cure problems that you avoid .... so to sum it up.. cleanliness and water management are the keys ... ken ps: you didnt really expect anything else from me.. did you????? .. lol |
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| Here is a link to TomClothier's seed germination database. It is pretty inclusive. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Germination data base
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- Posted by shear_stupidity 9B (My Page) on Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 18:18
| Rhizo, I absolutely will be scoping out the Growing From Seed forum. I just feel like I'm already running out of time this season since I haven't got much started ahead. I was hoping there was a definitive answer, but as you said, there are many ways to get the job done. I just need one complete way, instead of bits and pieces of ALL the ways. I like your way of using only two flats for germination, then have cell packs waiting to grow them on. In my area, MOST of the time I could do this outside. The problem is when I have to bring 80-million seedlings inside for a frost warning. Actually, maybe part of my problem is starting more seeds than I can take care of? Flora, after just what I've read today, I'm sure that those are two of my biggest problems. KEN! We meet again! :) You would be SO proud of me! I've been reading tapla's posts and I have collected all of the ingredients for 5-1-1 mix and gritty mix and I will start the re-potting tomorrow! (Lol@ "canal sludge" though) How does one sterilize dirt… er, I mean media? Thanks for the link, mandolis ! |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 18:43
| see link .. microwave or oven .. wet well.. think dollar store.. turkey pan and heavy duty alum foil.. make a giant media jiffy pop.. poke one hole ... when steam comes out.. close enough.. set aside covered for a day or two to cool off ... in the micro.. gal baggie.. crack open.. nuke till steam forms ... its all at the link ... i also wash everything in 10% bleach.. tools.. pots.. trays.. etc.. for the seeds i mean ... think operating room clean ... but you dont need an autoclave ... BTW.. are you doing this outdoors in z9??? ... might want to tent them somehow .... ken |
Here is a link that might be useful: link
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- Posted by shear_stupidity 9B (My Page) on Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 18:56
| That totally makes sense actually... about how to sterilize the media. I tried starting seeds indoors at first because it was still pretty chilly out. No heat, though... and no light. My living room has five large windows, and three french doors, all facing north-east and south-east. Some of the windows aren't covered, and the ones that are have white cellular shades... so it's pretty bright. Once the seeds sprouted, I gave it a week or two, and then I set them outside during warm days, but in the shade. Dead. So I tried outside during that last warm snap we had. I had them on the screened porch, and then on the patio. Covered at first, then uncovered when true leaves appeared. Dead. But I was using those pre-bought seed germination trays with the pellets... you just add water and "voila!" Dead seeds! |
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| T & M stands for Thompson & Morgan one of the oldest seed catalogs. If you google 'T & M seed starting database' you will find it. Thirty five pages if you decide to download it Al |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Wed, Mar 6, 13 at 11:03
| tiny babes are VERY dependent on humidity ... perhaps they dont have enough root mass.. to make it thru a day outside ... wind and all ... a plastic disposable painters trap from the hardware .. couple bucks.. and make a small greenhouse in the shade.. to reduce wind.. and increase humidity.. and perhaps keep out bugs and pathogens ... perhaps just draped over a lawn chair ... picnic table.. use your imagination.. except for the plastic itself.. you shouldnt need to spend money ... or even my little greenhouse below .... with ROOTING MEDIUM.. not perlite in this case ... or canal sludge ... lol ... see link for multitude of ideas .... again.. i am winging it here with ideas.. i have never tried this in z9 ... the real key.. IMHO .. with germination.. is CONSTANT media temp ... its really important.. it cant be 80-90 during the day in a window .. and 60 or lower at night ... and damp media gets cold fast ... especially in shallow trays ... and i bet.. many of your seed failures.. were bargain seed ??? perhaps at the end of summer.. rather than the fresh deliveries in spring???? ... ken
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Here is a link that might be useful: link
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| Ken - Constant temps for germination isn't needed for everything. I have read that some actually demand fluctuating temps, and most do fine with it. Anything that can seed itself out in the real world is going to have cooler temps at night - isnt it? While I admit I have occasionally had troubles germinating seeds, and I have mostly grown vegetables and annuals, I have never had constant temps because I just use the heat from the lamps and they are only on 16 hrs a day. When I got home from work today, my partner had been doing laundry and the house was warm and humid, I thought.....the seedlings would love it in here - and then I see that you are growing in your laundry room. Smart guy! |
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- Posted by shear_stupidity 9B (My Page) on Wed, Mar 6, 13 at 19:24
| My laundry room doesn't get warm. We have electric appliances and the dryer is right next to the exterior wall where it's vented. No help at all. The top of the water heater, while presumably warm, is covered in a thermal blanket. Regardless, it's not enough space for one seed tray, let alone several. :/ |
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| Good luck and don't give up. You'll love growing from seeds once you get the hang of it. |
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- Posted by shear_stupidity 9B (My Page) on Wed, Mar 6, 13 at 21:28
| Promise? I really ~want~ to love it, because it IS like playing God... but I'm not God. So it's hard. ;) |
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| Sometimes the seeds just germinate on their own, volunteer style. I am growing a morning glory in the basement under lights this winter and this nice Impatiens balsamina popped up. I was happy to see it. It should make bright red flowers that have white speckles and spots on them, if the seed is from the one balsam I grew last year.
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| Shear, you're going to need to invest in heating mats or soil cables. I can germinate enough seeds in TWO plastic flats to produce three or four hundred plants. It's only the germination flats that require a good source of heat...for about rwo weeks! The tiny transplants, happy in a good potting mix in their cell packs, can be put outside to continue to develop. We don't want the AIR to be particularly warm....it's the soil temperature that matters. As a matter of fact, professionally, I had far superior results when the greenhouse was kept very cool, especially at night while the thermostatically controlled cables or mats maintain soil temperature at 70-75 F. I'm speaking of the usual bedding plants....veggies and HERBACEOUS ornamentals. If you need more information, please let me know. Edited for clarification |
This post was edited by rhizo_1 on Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 8:48
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| Shear, you're going to need to invest in heating mats or soil cables. I can germinate enough seeds in TWO plastic flats to produce three or four hundred plants. It's only the germination flats that require a good source of heat...for about rwo weeks! The tiny transplants, happy in a good potting mix in their cell packs, can be put outside to continue to develop. We don't want the AIR to be particularly warm....it's the soil temperature that matters. As a matter of fact, professionally, I had far superior results when the greenhouse was kept very cool, especially at night while the thermostatically controlled cables or mats maintain soil temperature at 70-75 F. I'm speaking of the usual bedding plants....veggies and ornamentals. If you need more information, please let me know.
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- Posted by shear_stupidity 9B (My Page) on Wed, Mar 6, 13 at 22:07
| I think I follow so far, except for a few minor points: What is a soil cable? And what's the best way to handle it when we've had 2 weeks of almost 80 degree weather, then suddenly frosty nights and 50 degree days for a few days... then near-80's again... then frost again... What do you do with the seedlings THEN??? |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 7:35
| as i understand cables.. you build a sand box.. bury the cable.. and use warm sand as a heating medium ... way over most of our head.. [rhiz is a professional, after all ...] see link.. find a local hydroponics store.. or beer brew store.. and buy the smallest cheapest one ... enough for one flat ... you dont have to start all your flats at one time ... mine is a constant 72 degrees .. and that is good enough ... no real need.. at our level for spending a lot more for one with a thermostat ... again.. in MI.. the house temps swing to widely ... so a mat of this sort ... really makes a difference ... you need the warm feet to trigger the seed to swell.. break open and put down a root .. BUT.. i agree.. that once a majority of the seed germs ... cool is better ... cool soil and cool air temps.. is root growing time ... and that is what a babe needs ... if it gets too hot.. they bolt ... putting up inches and inches of top grow.. and you end up with butt ugly plants .... i would suggest.. you make a small nursery bed outside ... double dig it all.. loosen the soil.. and try half your seed in your new setup.. and half outdoors ... and decide.. over time.. which are worthwhile to fuss with and which can just be done outdoors ... there is a WINTER SOWING FORUM ... for the outdoor stuff ... in MI.. what you would do indoors.. is the stuff that has a longer period to bloom ... to get a headstart.. so as to get them to bloom before frost knocks them down.. e.g. if it takes 90 days to bloom.. and i cant get them outdoors until 6/1 ... the season is nearly over since i get frost 10/1 or so ... so.. if they bloom in 30 to 45 days ... just sow them outdoors ... etc obviously.. your z9 CA.. is a whole other world ... since your season is probably double mine ... if temps are predicted to frost.. put them in the garage.. or pull them indoors for the night ... as noted.. cool temps arent bed.. but frost if the formation of ice crystals ON the leaf.. and a lot of annuals cant handle that ... freeze is the actual icing inside the leaves.. and no plant.. that we are discussing.. likes that ... also ... that little tenting thing.. would be good enough on frost nights.. as the retained heat of mother earth.. will keep it warm enough INSIDE.. to offset and frost .. in your zone ... your bigger worry with such in your zone would be cooking them ... during the heat of the day .... you would probably have to be opening and closing them all the time .... is it hurting your head.. to actually be learning this stuff ... rather than winging it ... rotflmbo ... ken |
Here is a link that might be useful: i owuldnt spend more than 20 to 30 bucks ...
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- Posted by shear_stupidity 9B (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 8:38
| Ken, you forget that I'm FROM Michigan, so I get it. I used to start things indoors to get a head start before frost killed them, as you said. Now that I live in FL (not CA), I have to get a head start just so they can get established before it's 90 degrees outside. It's just a whole 'nother universe, ...to me anyway. We've had some really screwy weather for the past month. I guess I didn't realize they prefer cooler temps. (Which were easy enough to provide in Detroit!) I thought the garage would be too cold on a 32-degree-night. Regardless, I will soon run out of time to find any "cool" areas of the house OR yard here. And no, it isn't hurting my head. If I wasn't capable of retaining and using the information, I wouldn't have asked the questions. ;) You seem to have confused my sense of humor with an inability to process information. Lucky for you, I'm not confused by your brashness into believing you don't know what you're talking about. LOL! |
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| I am a professional, ken, but that doesn't preclude me from making simple, common sense adaptions that anyone can use. Even you! Shear, google 'soil heating cables '. I use one set per two or three plastic flats. They have a built in thermostats. The flats and the cell packs are recycled and reused. Cost : I paid somewhere around ten bucks for the cables about twenty years ago, nothing for the flats and cell pots.
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- Posted by shear_stupidity 9B (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 8:55
| I'll look at both the cables and the mats. Once I know where I'm going to set this up, it will probably be obvious which one to choose. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 10:06
| The flats and the cell packs are recycled and reused. ==>> after washing in 10% bleach.. to make sure whatever screwed up the prior batch ... is gone.. lol ... can these cables be used in mother earth???? ... i admit.. i dont understand how you can use them indoors in winter ... in MI ... as compared to a mat ... [BTW.. in the olden days.. after the water bed craze.. lots of peeps used their old water bed heaters ... though i cautioned they may or may not be water-proof .. and they may actually be too hot].. make sure you are safe in that regard.. like a GFS plug ... is that right.. ground fault .. GFI??? regardless.. whatever works.. within your budget.. works ... but one thing for sure.. you do NOT have to spend a lot of money for fancy things.. at the level you are at .... ken |
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| They are SOIL cables, intended to be buried in planting media of all kinds. The cables are very skinny and come in several lengths. Perfectly suitable for indoor use. They take a few minutes to arrange in the flats...then plug into the nearest receptacle. However, the cables are only suitable for use in flats...which is the only way I germinate seeds. If you plan on sowing a few seeds in individual pots, cables are not suitable. |
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- Posted by shear_stupidity 9B (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 13:05
| :) Yes, Ken. "GFI" is correct. That, or "GFCI." Stands for "Ground Fault Interrupt" or "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt." Hope that wasn't painful. Roflmbo! I would be using flats, so I'll look at cables as an option. |
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| They are SOIL cables, intended to be buried in planting media of all kinds. The cables are very skinny and come in several lengths. Perfectly suitable for indoor use. They take a few minutes to arrange in the flats...then plug into the nearest receptacle. However, the cables are only suitable for use in flats...which is the only way I germinate seeds. If you plan on sowing a few seeds in individual pots, cables are not suitable. |
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- Posted by shear_stupidity 9B (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 21:07
| Grrr! I posted a reply hours ago, and it's not here. I had said that I would be using trays, so I will definitely look at soil cables as an option. |
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| I would strongly suggest that you check out the wintersowing forum and its FAQ. Especially in your climate, I think you could have wonderful results without all the expense and bother of lights and heat mats or cables. To protect from overheating, I'd put containers in dappled or total shade. Martha |
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| I am trying wintersowing for the first time, with strawberry seeds. I'm excited to see the results. |
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- Posted by susanzone5 z5NY (My Page) on Sat, Mar 16, 13 at 12:45
| Plain and simply, your problem is lack of air circulation which is causing fungal attack. Use a fan and water from the bottom. Don't soak potting mix. Use packaged sterilized mix made for seed starting. You don't need fancy set-up. In your climate, start them outdoors. Plants can handle temperature fluctuations. Study which plants like cool weather and which ones like hot weather. Then read the back of the seed packets for germination instructions. You learn as you go. Learn as you research and take notes on what worked and what didn't. It's a learning process. Start simple. |
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