Greetings all,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this ongoing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 13, is becoming rather long and slow to load, so we are continuing the series here for a fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. As always, you are encouraged to post your pictures, but as a courtesy to readers with smaller monitors, try to keep the pictures posted no wider than 986 pixels.

This picture is 986 pixels wide, and it shows one of my current recombinant hybrid zinnias that has long narrow petals that are informally placed.

This zinnia, and several others that have been transplanted to the garden in my new location, was originally started indoors at our old location and moved here.

I am using zinnia cages to help protect them from wind and from birds that might try to perch on their flowers. So far I haven't been able to breed zinnia stems strong enough to support the average bird. I guess I should try to incorporate some strong stem genes from the Benary's Giant strain.

ZM

I like the cream and pink colors on your zinnia (Strawberry Cremesicle!). For some reason, that photo didn't completely download for me--the lower half looks gray!

JG

i had planted lots of zinnia seeds. but all of them died except one. the bottom leaves started to hang and got brown. slowly the wole plant died. the last one is tall but the stem is not erect. it keeps falling inspite of the stakes surrounding it.

any idea what went wrong?

it was lovely to see your other zinnia pictures in this forum. it feels so nice to see such healthy plants.

Chom.

Hi JG,

"For some reason, that photo didn't completely download for me--the lower half looks gray!"

Perhaps you are seeing part of the 2-liter soft drink bottle attached to a water spike in the lower left-hand corner of the picture. I use water spikes to provide a convenient way to feed liquid nutrients to my breeder zinnias. In case the picture actually didn't download completely, you can "refresh" a screen by hitting the F5 key on a PC. This is a picture of one of my current conventional cactus flowered zinnias. Part of a water spike is visible in the upper left part of this picture.

This zinnia shows some multicolored coloration from some Whirligig ancestry. I spent several hours planting some more outside zinnias today. When I am planting them, I am always wondering what they are going to look like when they bloom.

ZM

Hi Chom,

"How did you add the picture to your post?"

I upload the pictures I want to display to PhotoBucket and then simply link the picture into my message using the HTML [img src="link to PhotoBucket picture"] construct, but using angle brackets < > instead of the square brackets [ ] to make it actually work.

"...but all of them died except one... any idea what went wrong? "

That could be from any of several causes. Were these zinnias started inside? This is one of those cases where some photos could help in the diagnosis of the problem. But if you describe what you did in more detail, we might be able to figure out what went wrong without pictures. Don't be discouraged. You will learn to succeed with zinnias, because they are actually fairly easy to grow, and fast growing, too.

ZM

Hi Chom,

I was able to view your picture using both your pasted in URL and the forum's "Here is a link that might be useful: Zinnia. Incidentally, if you type in the following HTML in the Message: box it will appear as a picture in your Preview: which shows how your message will appear once it is posted.

<img src="http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy165/sowmyaram/DSC00018.jpg">

The zinnias in the picture appear to be wilted and much of their foliage has died. The wilt is not enough water. The dead foliage could be from extreme previous wilt, or from a foliage disease such as Powdery Mildew or Downy Mildew or possibly a nutrient deficiency.

Can you transplant your zinnias outdoors into soil in full sun? Also, try direct seeding some zinnia seeds in outdoor soil. Some details about your potting medium and nutrients or fertilizers that you have used could be helpful.

ZM

Alana,

I'm so glad you appeared here in this message thread. That is very impressive selection project, and a beautiful strain. You have demonstrated the power of merciless culling and isolation in a very dramatic way. It's fairly easy to get white on the tips of the petals, like in this Zig Zag specimen:

However, it is fairly rare for white to appear at the base of the petals, like in your strain and in this specimen:

I have always been attracted by zinnias with white at the base of their petals, and I think it would be nice to have zinnias with various colors of petals, but all with white bases. That could be a white based strain, but in a complete range of colors on the petal tips. A start in that direction would be to cross some of your existing white based zinnias with other colors, and then grow a lot of recombinants from the results of that. I think that some hand cross-pollination followed by your technique of careful culling and isolation could produce some great results.

ZM

I like your yellow and white flower! As ZM noted, most times flowers are white on the ends of the petals, not the bases of them. You have a really bright strain of zinnias..cool!

JG

Hi all,

This is a recent bloom that had a single petal with a tubular form:

I'm not sure if there is any genetic significance to that, although it does raise questions in my mind about tubular petals. I guess that, since zinnias are composites, each petal is technically a "flower".

Presumably the egg cell in the base of each petal has already undergone recombination and, in a heterozygous situation, presumably each of the egg cells in each of the petals could be genetically different, and most probably would be genetically different. At least, that applies to the pollen grains from heterozygous individuals, so I it seems logical to me that it would apply to the egg cells as well.

This is somewhat similar to the situation in which an ear of corn can have a lot of different colored individual kernels. However, the zinnia petals are not quite analogous to the the corn kernels, because the corn kernels are already fertilized and technically individual plants already, while the zinnia petals are most likely not fertilized yet.

That makes me wonder when in the development of a new petal that the egg cell is formed. If the egg cell is developed at a very early stage of the petal development, perhaps it could influence the development of the petal. Or maybe the tubular zinnia petals aren't even a genetic trait.

Incidentally, I didn't realize there was a leaf hopper in the picture when I took it.

ZM

It seems that all of the flowers' cells of a single zinnia are genetically identical except the egg and sperm cells, but it's an interesting thought that the developing egg may have an effect on the ray development of that particular flower. I would guess that some environmental cue initiates the tubular ray--something that the other rays don't receive, or aren't receptive to. Maybe it would pay off to save the seed from only tubular flowers to increase the chances of some bit of inherited tendency.

I have 5 or 6 plants started from a flower with tubular rays--we'll see if any of those have similarity to the parent.

I have a lot of zinnias started--and, we have had a tremendous amount of rain and heat. I see that some of my plants are getting damage resulting from all of this moisture in the form of brown spots on the leaves. And the mosquitoes are rampant!! But I see buds on the older of the plants and can't wait to see the flowers! I now have not only haageana volunteers, but also peruviana volunteers coming up from last year's seed.

I love the color of that cactus zinnia you have just shown!

JG

JG,

It has also been very rainy here north of Ottawa, KS. We have had rain on 10 of the last 15 days, including quite a rain storm today. We have one of those weather warning radios, and it has been sounding off practically everyday, frequently several times a day. Today was no exception. We actually spent some time in the basement this afternoon, based on its warnings. That severe thunderstorm passed a mile or two to the north of us, but we got high winds and one close lightning strike. This house and all the buildings around here are equipped with lightning rods. But the trees aren't, and you can tell from old damage on them that they have taken several big lightning bolts in the past.

I am seeing some evidence of bacterial infection on some of my zinnias. This bloom had one petal that was "eaten up".

The flowerform on that zinnia specimen reminds me a bit of an aster. I guess I should spray them with Physan 20 in an attempt to control bacterial rot in this water-soaked weather.

The mosquitoes are bad here, too. I am using one of those new Off! Clip-On Mosquito Repellent devices and it works fairly well. The Refills are supposed to last 12 hours, so I guess I should buy some soon. It has a little battery operated fan that blows air over a pad that contains Metofluthrin. The repellent air exits from the bottom of the unit. If the mosquitoes get as bad as I think they will because of all this rain, I may try one of the ThermaCELL Mosquito Repellent devices. I'll probably buy one or more of the ThermaCELL products listed on Amazon.

In addition to my blooming bed of indoor-started zinnias, I have one seedbed with zinnia seedlings getting their "true leaves" and another seedbed with seedlings just emerging. I'll start preparing a third seedbed tomorrow. Before the Summer is over, I hope to grow a fairly large number of zinnias as compared with last year.

More later.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

I like the last flower with the nice narrow petals and especially those curly petals in the center! They make the whole flower interesting!

Again, we have had more rain. Continual thunderstorms are getting to be a real pain and causing some flooding on our property--I'm pretty sure I lost most of my Profusion-type plants due to their standing in about 5 inches of water for over 24 hours! We have had about 9 inches of rain so far in June, and once the ground gets saturated the water just starts to pool in this area that is so flat.

The most mature of my zinnias are starting to bloom. They come a mix of seeds that were harvested from last year's garden, which for the most part was a large bunch of randomly-crossed flowers. I see lots of whirligig and toothy flowers, and some very bright magenta flowers that may have resulted from the Uproar Rose zinnias I grew last year. There's nothing that really catches my eye yet. I've got about 30 plants each from the Extreme Roll and July Bonnet plants I had last year, as well as a large number of their sibs that didn't have that traits that I wanted--none the less, I hope if the direct progeny don't show what I would like to see, some of the relatives might!

For the mosquitoes , I just use a can of DEET that seems
to be pretty effective if I use al ot of it. The weeds are rampant with all of the heat and rain. I truly hope now for a nice dry zinnia summer!

JG

JG,

Sorry to hear of your flooding problems. Before we moved here to Ottawa, our Wellsville backyard was pretty much a swamp in the Spring, which kept it from being useful for my zinnias. There was a small area immediately south of the house that got some some Sun and was fairly well drained, so most of my successful zinnias were grown there. I had about a dozen breeders there. Fortunately, here in this rural Ottawa location, we are on top of a sort of knoll and flooding is not a problem, even though we have had a lot of rain.

Yesterday I saw the largest mosquito I have ever seen, and it wasn't a Crane Fly. It was smaller than a Crane Fly, but at least 50% bigger than any mosquito I can recall. I need to study the mosquitoes of Kansas. DEET in the 20% to 30% range is an effective repellent, but I prefer the non-oily feel of the Picaridin based repellents. DEET can also damage some plastics, which could be a problem for some cameras and similar items. And I have heard that some people are sensitive to DEET, but I don't know if that is actually true.

ZM

It's stiil very hot and humid here, but I am starting to catch up on the weeds. I have two flowers now that are things that folks have shown before, but I also find them interesting.

First there is a somewhat asymmetical flower that nonetheless has all tubular petals. We'll see what the other flowers on that plant do!

Also, I have a yellow flower with a white center.

JG

One thing I meant to mention in the last post is that although I show a yellow with white-centered zinnia here, it doesn't come close to the pretty line that Alana (PDF) has shown with her white and yellow flower. It is very nice because although it has a white center, it also has pretty ring of yellow within the center. Now, I would really like to get one of those!

JG

JG,

I agree with your favorable opinion of Alana's white & yellow zinnia. In a sense, Alana is ahead of the rest of us, in that she has already done the "isolation and merciless culling" necessary to stabilize a strain. I guess I should start thinking about some new zinnia beds located away from my present zinnia garden, in order to achieve some isolation. Also, my zinnia "hair nets" might serve the same purpose. I need to make some more of them. I am still perfecting their design by trial and error.

At the present time I am not selecting for particular color combinations, but I am selecting for strains with a particular flower form. I culled some off-type zinnias yesterday. In Maine I had a whole compost pile of culled zinnias, but I now wonder if that could promote disease when the compost is used. I am thinking I will not do that here in Kansas. I have enough lawn grass and trees here to produce all of the compost I need without using zinnia culls. I am now sending my zinnia discards to the landfill.

Zinnias certainly can do yellow over white, and I see that from time to time, although certainly not as nice as Alana's strain. This "echinacea flowered" zinnia is not excellent, but it does have yellow-based-white guard petals.

Incidentally, JG, your yellow based white, though single, does have an unusual dark golden yellow, and I would save seed from it based on that trait alone. You might be able to get it in a non-single form with some hybridization and re-selection. I am also encouraged that you got a tubular specimen. Maybe you can get some tubular progeny from it.

ZM

The bicolors it came from were two or more colors per petal rather than this arrangement of two different colors on different petals.
It reminds me of the concept for Queen Red Lime, which I grew last year but which was wildly inconsistent in color.

This is another example of the yellow and white zinnia with better form, at least to my eye:

I pulled out all of the plants that did not exhibit this form or better, as well as one that bloomed pink.

Alana,

"This flower appeared in a bed of seedlings I grew from seeds I collected last year from some mixed bi-colors. I wonder how difficult it would be to select for this "stacked" appearance or if it can be duplicated?"

I think with careful selection and reselection they probably could be duplicated. This is a bloom that appeared in my indoor growing a couple of years ago.

I can't recall having planted seeds from it. Its original petals were darker colored but faded dramatically and then, when a fresh growth of petals came in, they created a darker "topknot". Incidentally, it doesn't show very well in the grainy photo, but the basal petals were actually tricolor, yellow based scarlet based purple.

A strain of these in a complete color range would be a good novelty. Some zinnias fade in color from a youthful color to an aged color with a gradation of colors in between. Burpee's Exquisite is a commercial example. But that is different from the "stacked" or "topknot" form. Here, in this rural Ottawa location, I have more potential gardening room and am currently creating more seedbeds to allow me to plant out a lot of zinnia seeds that I have accumulated from previous years. If I find a Ziploc bag of seeds from my "stacked" specimen, I will start them individually inside in 3-inch pots for maximum survival.

ZM

I really like the unusual color combinations. I look back in Photobucket and have had flowers like below:

The above flower is a bit like Alana's. Now I recall, I tried to grow up the seed the next year, but they weren't viable!

The above flower is somewhat like the two-toned zinnias ZM and Alana are showing, but mine represents one of those strange color changes that happens late in the season with some of the zinnias, and I think they well may result from decreasing temperatures and daylight, maybe, or even other accumulated stresses from insects and dryness over time.

I've never seen this color combination again, despite regrowing seeds from the flower!

The above was a strange mutation in a plant that otherwise had solid red flowers.

Hoping to show you something more now from this year's garden, and looking for pictures of your plants!

JG

JG,

I have seen several zinnias that were similar to your curled petal yellow over white. This one, about three years ago, was a bit similar.

Your pink and red on white was spectacular. Too bad it didn't appear in its progeny. Maybe those genes are still floating around somewhere in your zinnia gene pool.

ZM

Yes, your yellow flower was similar!! Nice mellow color...

I'll just post a couple of flowers I saw today in the garden coming from last year's seeds.

I had one flower last year that I saw was "bluer" than the rest. This year, I got one again: don't know if I can selectively get blue or not! Kind of a pipedream, but I'll always hold hope!

And then I have a whirligig type with squared-off petals and that's a little geometric.

My collection of seeds from randomly crossed plants last year has an awful lot of whirligig types for some reason, despite the large number of scabious, cactus, and Benary types present then.

JG

I have a few blooms this year that have begun as white or yellow with red centers. By the 2nd day, they have changed to pink or orange respectively.

Alana, both your yellow zinnias and your red and yellow zinnias are so very interesting! You've already shown the yellows breed fairly true--you just have to get some size built in--interesting to see what plan you follow. Are you going to self both of those types of zinnia that you have or let them be randomly pollinated?

HC, it's really good to see you back! Hope all is going well! I have many zinnias with purple centers here, so it is not an unusual trait in my garden. I hope to see some of your flowers from this summer on this thread.

Brock, you have some super flowers there! Those tubed blooms are so neat! The color of the first one is really nice, and the second one down--at first, I thought I was looking at a monarda (bee balm). You had better be saving the seeds!! The third has a really pretty combination of colors. Did you plant the Chippendales, or were they volunteers from last year's garden? I was wondering, because I got a lot of volunteers from my haageana-type zinnias last year.

Darn! I have nothing spectacular to show here..as I said before, I've ended up with a whole lot of whirligig types
this year from last year's seeds. Last year I had a flower with petals that were tightly rolled up--I called it "Extreme Roll." I selfed it, and am waiting for the F1 to bloom. But, one of my whirligig types this year came up with a similar trait, so obviously the genes for that character are kind of spread around here.

I have another small mutant-looking zinnia here that I call "Extreme Cleft." Not terribly desirable, just different.

There is a small whirligig that I have that I thought at first was a Persian Carpet (haageana), but it has the leaves of the elegans species, so I guess that is what it is--flower is about 1 1/2 inches in diameter.

JG

holtzclaw,

"I think I'm in love with the "almost blue"!! What is so striking to me is that the center of the bloom is PURPLE."

I, too, am glad to have you back, HC. I agree that JG's "almost blue" does look great, and the color-coordinated purple center adds to the effect. I used to think that true blue was impossible in zinnias, but with some of the remarkable pictures that have been showing up here, I'm not so sure now. Even if it is not true blue, JG's near blue zinnia is certainly mighty good looking. I hope JG saves seeds from it.

Years ago I had a scabiosa X cactus hybrid that had guard petals with a lavender color that looked quite "bluish" in the shade. The central florets were a more conventional color.

But when sun shone on it, it became more of a conventional lavender. The picture is rather grainy because it was taken in the shade with an older Sony video camera. I upsampled it to get it to a larger size. Some phones today can take better pictures. But the colors were unaltered, and actually looked that bluish to the naked eye at the time the picture was taken. So far, none of the progeny from it have repeated that color, and most have been "wild-looking" singles. If I find any more of its seeds, I will try to plant them this year, but rather close together because of their high percentage of rejects so far.

Years ago in Fort Worth I had a lavender cactus flowered zinnia that actually looked powder blue in the shade, until the sun shone on it. A dog destroyed the plant, or I would have saved seeds from it. (Same dog that ate my homework??) However, I have yet to see a blue zinnia that retained its color in full sun. But hope springs eternal.

I suspect that genetic engineering could bring blue into zinnias from Heavenly Blue morning glories or some other "true blue" flower. That may be the way that blue zinnias are eventually achieved.

ZM

BTG,

Your tubular petaled zinnia is I believe the most bizarre specimen I have seen. I've had several tubulars, but nothing in a class with that amazing example. Thanks for sharing those pictures. I sure hope you can save seeds from that, because it shows that tubular petals can result in some really exotic zinnia flowers. The double decker effect is just icing on the cake. What a zinnia! It makes me very optimistic about the possibilities of tubular zinnias.

ZM

JG,

That white and red rolled-petal Whirligig is terrific! I don't know whether to call it pencil-petaled or needle-petaled. But those slender rolled petals create a charming flower that really appeals to me. I think that would be a great strain in a variety of color combinations. That zinnia is a choice breeder. I'm going to plant some Whirligig zinnias tomorrow in hopes of getting something like that. I had a narrow petaled Whirligig before, but it wasn't double like yours. Imagine what that would look like in a giant flower...

ZM

Here are a few of the flowers blooming today..

First, a nice big orange cactus:

Then, here's a flower that may be the descendent of either a Queen Red Lime or an Envy (it doesn't have the shades of rose that the Queen Red Lime does):

Here is a flower whose florets are totally confused as to size:

Here is a fuschia flower with a red center:

Here is an orange flower with a red center:

Probably the two above have whirligig influence because of the variable colors, and cactus because of petal shape.

So far, I have been pretty disappointed with the Candy Mix scabious zinnias this year. Not one flower of the bunch looks good at all! I remember last year, there were some very nice flowers coming from Candy mix seeds.

ZM, that blue flower you showed definitely seems a distinct shade of blue, especially when seen in contrast to the pinkish center. I don't know if genetic engineering is required for a blue zinnia (although it could certainly be used!). It seems that if you could inactivate the genes responsible for red color in a purple flower, you may get blue. And, maybe that could be done through selective breeding alone..

Well, ZM, we haven't seen any of your recent flowers lately. What do you have?

JG

JG,

I don't have much new right now. The zinnias I started indoors in Wellsville and moved over here to rural Ottawa are developing into larger plants, but I have showed most of their blooms. Some of my outdoor seedlings planted here are beginning to bud, so I should have some new pictures in a couple of weeks. This is a recent picture of one of the Wellsville to Ottawa immigrant zinnias:

It has longish rather narrow straight petals in a flower form that differs a little from the usual. I hope to improve on that flower form with longer, narrower petals.

ZM

That flower is elegant-looking..is it on the same plant as the flower you posted on June 16 with a tubular petal?
It seems that you are very close to your goal of making an airy, delicate zinnia! Are you finding that you can consistently get these flowers one generation to the next?

I would love to get to that stage with some favorite flowers! I am going to have to be more focused on particular flowers--wish the life cycle were a little shorter! You mentioned you are still putting in seeds...maybe I will try the same!

JG

JG,

"...is it on the same plant as the flower you posted on June 16...?"

No, this one is quite a bit different. It has long flat petals while the earlier one had down-rolled petals and considerably more "toothiness" at the petal ends. This one is also pinker. I think of the long flat petals as "aster flowered". Both flowers are "open" with spaced-apart petals so that you can "see through" them. That "airiness" is a trait that I am breeding for.

"It seems that you are very close to your goal of making an airy, delicate zinnia! Are you finding that you can consistently get these flowers one generation to the next?"

I am getting a high percentage (well, maybe just over half) of "airy" progeny from seed saved from airy mother plants. I don't have the purity of a strain yet, partly because I tend to cross various "airy" zinnias with each other to get more variations in "airy". I saw some fireworks this evening on TV that inspired me to go for even more "open" flower forms with longer, narrower petals.

"...wish the life cycle were a little shorter! You mentioned you are still putting in seeds...maybe I will try the same! "

Compared to most other flowers, the zinnia life cycle is quite short. That is one of the reasons I chose them as a subject for breeding. Indoors, I have had zinnias bloom in as little as five weeks from inserting the seed in the growing medium. Outside, six to eight weeks is achievable. Then, by using the "green seed" technique, you can have progeny emerging in as little eight or nine weeks after the "mother" emerged indoors, and perhaps a couple of weeks more than that outside.

I plan to keep planting outside throughout the month of July, and perhaps later. If I have any good "late bloomer" remarkable breeders, I will do as I have done for the last couple of years, and bring cuttings inside for continuation of the line under lights. But I expect to be able to save seeds outdoors from the zinnias I am planting now.

I planted about 30 feet of Whirligig row today, and if the weather allows, I will plant some more tomorrow. I am quite taken with your needle-petaled red-and-white Whirligig, and hope to coax some specimens like it from my Whirligig seeds. More later.

ZM

JG,

I meant to say above:

Then, by using the "green seed" technique, you can have progeny emerging in as little as eight or nine weeks after the "mother" emerged indoors...

ZM

I am going to try and plant some seeds today--they will include some of the species zinnias in addition to a batch of purple zinnias-the seeds which I've had a long time, and should use.

Here are several zinnias I have today. One is a flower whose petals are spoon-like and almost tubular, and another is a red flower with a purple center. The whirligig and cactus zinnias I had last year crossed and gave some interesting offspring. I have a number of reds with purple centers, so may set the seed aside for a small patch next year. Not a good form, but a bright color combination.

JG

Alana,

"I am disappointed in the Candy mix offering as well. Out of 20+ plants there is only one that I consider garden worthy and it is quite good."

For the typical gardener, only one good plant in 20 would be an unacceptable disappointment. But for the amateur plant breeder, one good plant in 20 is an exciting success. I don't think that any of the commercial scabiosa flowered zinnia strains perform much better than what you experienced with the Candy strain. Park's Pastel Scabious zinnias performed about the same, and most of them were "pull-ups" as well. Parks discontinued Pastel Scabious in favor of Candy mixed.

I just plant my scabious zinnias fairly close together and cull out the off-type ones as they come into bloom. However, you can produce your own improved strains of scabiosa flowered zinnias using your technique of "isolation and merciless culling". Incidentally, you can achieve the benefits of isolation by using the zinnia "hairnets" discussed previously in this series of message threads.

ZM

I have about 40 plants of the Candy Mix, and not one plant is scabious, to any degree! I really don't think that no (!) scabious flowers is a desirable result for commercially produced seeds. I have to say that last year's Candy Mix results were much better, with a good number of really pretty scabious flowers. Now I wish I had planted more of the seeds I obtained from last year's scabious plants! Oh well! I have a few rows I put in late--will see what happens--they are about 6 to 8 inches high now..

I ordered seeds for red zinnias from a company called Seedman for the first time. I have about 20 plants--not one has a red flower!

Well, at least, then, if we are disappointed by our own attempts at breeding, we can be sure that even the "professionals" are not always having such an easy time of it! Guess we have lots of challenges in store!! It should be an interesting season.

JG

JG,

Thanks for that info that about 40 plants of your Candy Mix were off-type. I guess I will plant my Candy Mix close together in anticipation of a high cull rate.

I like your spoon-like specimen. I regard that as a desirable trait worth further improvement. Last year you had a very twisted specimen that I admired and, this year, I am very happy to have the appearance of a similar specimen:

It is actually so twisted that many of its stigmas are inaccessible. However, I will "dig" to pollinate them, probably with selfed pollen. I'm guessing that is a bad bug "hamming it up" in the picture, but maybe not. I need to learn more about Kansas insects. More later.

ZM

I would call that cactus flower "Medusa"! It is really full and curly with some yellow in the center. Nice! I think the chance of that flower crossing with others is minimal, given its anatomy!

The finches have already settled in my garden. They came early this year and were perched in the sunflowers before they even had flower buds! Now they are robbing me already of zinnia seeds, so I am harvesting quite a few seeds to beat them in their act..

I found a bug site you and everyone else here might enjoy using...

http://bugguide.net/node/view/15740

It is a website hosted by Iowa State University. You can register with e-mail and password, then you can submit photos of bugs you see (photos are automatically copyrighted for you). Amateur as well as professional entomologists from all over the country monitor the site and frequently you will get an ID within a day of the bug whose photo you submitted. They also have a pictoral key of sorts you can use anytime to ID a bug yourself. I think you would enjoy it. I have used it and am starting to learn a lot more about the insects I see! And the information you submit allows the sitekeepers to get an idea of range and activities of the bugs in the country.

JG

We have just had a good rain after more than a week of hot, dry weather, and so flowers are starting to come out!

I've got a number of my July Bonnet F2 appearing, and in about ten flowering plants so far, none of the flowers show the traits of the F1 and P1. This suggests to me that indeed as we have discussed before, the traits in these particular flowers such as central curly petals, varying colors and stripes, along with the very white underside of the petals, may be genetically unstable--possibly due to a virus or transposable element! I'm disappointed, but still watching the rest of the F2.

Of 24 maturing F1 Extreme Roll plants, there are 6 plants with flowers. Four of these plants don't show the quilled petals, but 2 of them do. So far, unlike the parent plant, these flowers are a solid shade of purple, rather than bi-colored. We shall see how they mature! Here is one, still relatively new:

I have a number of cactus-type flowers coming along.
This one is very pastel, unlike most of my flowers:

Here is a conjoined flower, sharing a single stem:

My large orange cactus (about six inches in diameter) continues to become larger. Interestingly, it is on a plant that is about one foot high--a little influence perhaps from the Magellans I grew last year!

In the past weeks, I showed a red flower with all tubular petals. The second flower appearing on this plant has all normal petals. I wonder if these tubular petals aren't some kind of developmental abnormality that can happen with the right conditions on any plant?

JG

JG,

I like your extreme-rolled specimen in your top picture. That orange cactus in the bottom picture is very twisty. If it filled in its petals, it could look very similar to my "Medusa".

"In the past weeks, I showed a red flower with all tubular petals. The second flower appearing on this plant has all normal petals. I wonder if these tubular petals aren't some kind of developmental abnormality that can happen with the right conditions on any plant?"

I wouldn't go so far as to say that tubular petals can appear on any plant. I think there is something genetically different about zinnias that have tubular petals, even if subsequent flowers on the plant don't have them. The guy who had the "bugle flowered" zinnia over on Dave's Garden showed a blurry photo which seemed to show that all the flowers on the plant had the tubular petals. But many times I have seen significant differences in the flowers on a single plant that looked like one branch might be genetically different from another.

I don't know the answer to explain many things I have seen in zinnias, like, for example, the occurrence of leaves in threes instead of in pairs. I have saved seed from "threesies" that typically don't show the trait in the progeny.

This currently blooming specimen has long, thin, flat petals that bend backward some.

I think of these as "aster flowered" because some, but not all, asters have a similar "look". This one has the big stigmas of the "Dinosaur zinnia", which was an ancestor. This aster flowered trait is one of the things I am breeding for. More later.

ZM

That is a nice aster-petalled flower. I like the way the petals are strap-like and uniform, and the color is wonderful!! I notice the oversized stigmas inherited from your "dinosaur," too.

I can't help but wonder if there is some truth in the observation from Stimart (I think!) that zinnias are self-incompatible. Specifically, maybe it is that SOME zinnias are self-incompatible. Maybe this explains in part why we don't see any offspring that look like the parents when we have a large number of offspring. I'm still puzzled over the July Bonnet offspring, F2 generation, that has no resemblance to the F1. Maybe the mobilization of a virus or element within the genome, or maybe self-incompatibitlity and pollination through the net covers by wind from surrounding flowers explains it, I don't know! This summer, I got a very finely meshed material that is nearly impenetratable to water, and I'm hoping the majority of pollen doesn't get through, either, when there is wind, as the wind is full of all kinds of pollen--in a zinnia garden, especially zinnia pollen, and it is microsopic. I know with corn hybridization work, we used paper bags that also stood up to water fairly well--got wet, but didn't fall apart!!

Thus far, I have tried to make paper bags for zinnias, but with such a small plant, they are awkward to work with!

JG

The first of the Extreme Roll F1 is filling out and becoming a deeper purple in color.

The third F1 plant's first flower is just starting to open (somewhat small, but plant was flooded earlier)and shows that it may be bicolor.

Speaking of bicolor, I can pretty much see that Whirligig-Benary crosses are just that with many petals.

And speaking of Whirligig, I planted a pack of Park Whirligig seeds this spring, and only one out of about forty plants shows any indication that it is a Whirligig. I think the Park folks need to speak to their breeders. Usually they provide pretty nice seeds.

JG

JG,

"...or maybe self-incompatibitlity and pollination through the net covers by wind from surrounding flowers explains it..."

I have used a small artists paint brush to pick up pollen from indoor zinnias, and the pollen powder seems rather heavy and thick -- very unlike a wind-borne pollen. I have used my zinnia hairnets to exclude bees from some zinnias to control their pollination, but I have never attempted to deal with wind transmission of pollen.

I would be very surprised if wind pollination is a factor with zinnias. I think the extreme differences between F1 hybrids and their F2 offspring is more a symptom of a lot of genes at play. The mathematical probability of a particular combination of genes can be very small. I culled several newly blooming zinnias today.

"The first of the Extreme Roll F1 is filling out and becoming a deeper purple in color. "

Your Extreme Roll is showing at least some continuity of the petal form. It has potential for becoming a new strain. I remembered that a few years ago I had a similar Whirligig to your "needle petaled" red and white specimen, and this is its picture:

"Extreme Roll" and "Needle Petal" are rather similar traits. That pictured rolled petal specimen came right out of a commercial Whirligig seed packet (Burpee or Stokes). I intend to rifle through my seeds to see if I got any seeds from it. Since it came from a commercial package of Whirligigs, I am planting quite a few Whirligigs in an attempt to get a strain like your needle-petaled or extreme roll specimens.

"I planted a pack of Park Whirligig seeds this spring, and only one out of about forty plants shows any indication that it is a Whirligig."

At least Park Seeds doesn't show pictures of double Whirligigs. I prefer double Whirligigs, so I buy Whirligig seeds from companies that still show double Whirligig flowers on the seed packet or in the seed catalog. I planted a bunch of Stokes Whirligig seeds yesterday, in search of more elusive needle-petaled specimens. More later.

ZM

Last year, I planted my main garden in alternating rows of whirligigs, Benaries, cactuses (cacti??), and scabiosas and let them randowly cross. I got some interesting offpring from those..

a dahlia-like flower

a big pink flower with crinkled petals

a striped whirligig type

a pink flower with turned-under petals

a big flower with whirligig colors

I haven't seen much influence from the scabious plants!

JG

I've got some off-type Extreme Roll F1; in general, they have long petals, that started out very much needle-like, then unrolled on maturing.

The second and third on-type F1s continue to grow. The third is somewhat runty due to crowding, and the heavy net I placed on it early on (I've fixed that, but too late for this flower), but has some interesting color.

JG

JG,

Your "Extreme Roll" progeny look great, even that first one that has "unrolled on maturing". That last one looks a little "wonky", but I would pollinate it with some of the other Extreme Rolls to help it look better. I think they all deserve some hand pollination, both selfing and cross-pollinating with each other to hopefully preserve the extreme roll trait while introducing some more variation and recombination of other genetic traits, like color. It looks like you are well on your way toward an interesting strain there.

I think you had something like your "crinkled petal" pink in a previous year. I like the crinkled petal look, and have designated a few breeders in the past based on that trait. I tend to like any zinnia trait that is a little, or a lot, different from the traditional zinnia look.

"I haven't seen much influence from the scabious plants! "

I think the scabiosa flowered traits benefit more than most from hand pollination. Their unusual presentation of viable pollen and receptive stigmas tends to put them at a disadvantage with respect to bee pollination. Their central florets are, in many cases, self-sterile, but still contain receptive inaccessible stigmas. That may be why most, if not all, of the commercial scabiosa flowered strains have "run out". I think the unusual scabious-derived flower forms are worthy of some hand pollination efforts. There is hidden pollen and there are inaccessible stigmas that can be exploited with a little delicate "floral surgery". This current flower shows some scabious influence, as well as some Whirligig influence.

This discussion reminds me that I don't have as many scabious traits in bloom right now as I would like, so I will bump them up in priority in my current re-planting operations. More later.

ZM

The last flower you've shown has an interesting combination of scabious and whirligig traits. I've always liked the curly petals, and the color combinations there are rich.

I probably should have spent more time in crossing my 2009 scabious flowers by hand. I have a row of plants coming up from seeds of randomly crossed scabious flowers that I grew last year--it will be interesting to see how many actually are scabious in this second generation when they have crossed on their own device.

I have just come back from the annual conference of the Seed Savers Exchange in Iowa--interesting and informative meeting. I saw no zinnias in the gardens there, however.

But, back home we have had plenty of rain and I noticed the interesting variety among these Extreme Roll F1s and their cousins (F1s of Extreme Roll P1 sibs).

These are F1s--more long petals, with little or slight rolling (a number more have shown the "extreme roll" as well):

These are cousins of the F1s. One almost has tubelike petals-- will keep seeds of these to follow the various traits as well.

JG

Here are some flowers I've seen today. The garden is full of flowers, and I love being out there despite the mosquitoes. Water and/or insect damage is apparent on many of the flowers.

A crinkled purple:

A double red-centered flower:

A curly cactus:

A bright whirligig:

JG

JG,

Splendid pictures! Your curly cactus is equivalent to my Medusa. We should select out curly cactus strains. Long ago, nearly before my time even, there was a strain of medium sized very curly zinnias called "Fantasy". At least one got an All America Selections medal, and they were available in several separate colors. I grew several as a kid on the farm. I think I have mentioned them before. Like many good zinnia strains, the Fantasy strains are no more. But we obviously could re-create them, in a larger size. On a somewhat different note, this is another of my scabiosa-influenced recombinants.

It also has Whirligig influence. We are having hot, humid weather with Heat Indexes over 100. Mosquitoes haven't been too bad, but I have been wearing an Off Clip-on. More later.

ZM

It looks like crossing by hand definitely has its benefits when trying to obtain the scabious traits. I like the "loud" colors I see in that last flower. The whirligigs really contribute to that. I think you're right in trying to get back the curly cactus flowers. I have a pretty good number of cactus flowers right now, and I will select the ones for curliness for one category of seed-saving. I have no cactus blooms like the ones you get through breeding with the straight, airy petals.

Here are a few flowers from yesterday's garden:

JG

Here are a few more...

JG

JG,

Wow! You have some good ones! And some more of those "needle" petal types. That white narrow-petal could turn out to be a great specimen. I planted a bunch of Whirligigs in an attempt to get some of those needle-petal types, but they haven't bloomed yet. This is another of my current specimens with some scabious influence:

Today I culled more than a dozen singles, which are also the result of "scabious influence". I'm working on another seedbed, which will probably be my last this Summer. We are having near-record Heat Indexes. More later.

ZM

You are brave to be still planting in this heat wave that we have! The young zinnias will no doubt like it. And, I suspect you will see more scabious zinnias from your own seed than from the commercial source this year, such as you have shown with that last picture!

At least, that is the case for me. I can see that about 30% of the seeds I harvested from randomly pollinated scabious flowers of 2009 are resulting in scabious flowers from a sample lot planted this year.
Here is one of them below:

It will probably fill out more and look a little fuller in the coming days.

JG

Hi all,

This is another of my scabiosa recombinant zinnias. If you look closely, you can see a few small ants on the bloom.

Since its guard petals are long, I usually think of these as "echinacea flowered" or "echie" for short.

ZM

Hi JG,

I see you posted a good looking scabiosa flowered specimen while I was preparing my last post. I do have several new scabiosa-derived recombinants, and this is one of them:

It has a fuller center than many of my recombinants, which gives it a sunflower look. I like the fuller centers, because they are a little unusual. This heat is making my zinnias grow fast, and I need to foliar feed them again, to satisfy their appetites and correct some trace element deficiencies. Apparently the soil and the water here are a bit deficient in boron. We might get rain tomorrow, and that hopefully will cool things off a little. More later.

ZM

Your white flower is pretty with the yellow-tinted florets in the center! The scabious flowers with a whirligig coloring are nice. I like the fuller centers on both.

Here are some of mine from today:

A scabious flower arising from last year's seed--

A whirligig-Benary cross, probably--

Another curly cactus--

A July Bonnet F2 (the variety seen in these offspring amaze me!) I finally got a July Bonnet F2, somewhat on-type (not shown here)--

Anotrher crinkly pink; I seem to have a lot of those--

JG

JG,

Your pink crinkly zinnias are better than any commercial variety, in my opinion. Your pictured July Bonnet F2 appeals to me, and it may have Scabiosa heritage. Which suggests that the original July Bonnet may have been scabiosa-derived.

I notice that your latest curly cactus zinnia actually is also bi-colored, as was the previous one, indicating probable Whirligig ancestry.

I notice that most of the successive blooms on my Medusa specimen are now just curly cactus, as shown in this photo:

That makes me wonder if many of the curly cactus specimens don't have the potential to fill in and create the Medusa look. More later.

ZM

I wouldn't be surprised if those cactus blooms you show mature further to turn into "Medusas." My really curly flowers start out as cactuses then become fuller with time. Those are really nice flowers you show there!

Last year I had a few plants whose flowers had what I would call "ragged edges." I planted the seeds and this year I see that the ragged edges are carrying through to the second generation. Here is an example:

Here is another flower of whirligig ancestry:

JG

JG,

You have had lots of new and unique zinnias that you don't see offered as commercial strains. The zinnia that you refer to as having "ragged edges" has what I have been referring to as "toothy" petals. I like that unusual ragged toothy petal shape, and I use them as breeders when I see them. Hopefully someday I can get a dependable strain of big ragged toothy zinnias. That last flower is amazing, with its range of colors and sophisticated petal forms.

This is one of my recent blooms that I am rather excited about.

If those long dangling petals were standing out horizontally, that bloom would be in excess of 7 inches in diameter, perhaps even beyond 8 inches. As it is, I like the flower form and the corrugated texture of its petals. The flower is deeper than it is wide. It reminds me a bit of a pink shaggy dog. Incidentally, one of its parents was the "Dinosaur zinnia" with the huge stigmas. The stigmas on this one are also quite large, but they don't look so large alongside the extra long petals. Needless to say, this "shaggy dog" is a breeder. More later.

ZM

That last flower is absolutely beautiful--there is no doubt that all the years you have put into breeding zinnias has paid off! That plant is definitely a breeder--I hope you get many more like it, and have the opportunity to show them off at a horticultural event. The dinosaur zinnia was a great P1--are you still able to keep it going?...I hope so! Nonetheless, you have this newest plant to work with...I would get as many cuttings as possible to amplify it! I have no doubt that all of us seeing that flower are jealous!

I have a big variety of plants, but nothing so exciting. My Extreme Roll progeny continue to bloom, though, showing some variation, flower to flower.

JG

JG,

You have made impressive progress with your Extreme Roll progeny. That first picture shows a specimen that seems to have two distinct zones in the flower. There seems to be an outer zone of rolled guard petals and an inner zone with a mound of more conventional petals. I think your Extreme Rolls have a lot of possibilities.

Thanks for the kind words about the "shaggy dog". I'm glad you share my enthusiasm for it. I definitely hope to create a strain like it, or better. At first that specimen was a disappointment, because I had crossed the Dinosaur zinnia with some large cactus types in the hopes of achieving 8-inch plus super giant zinnias. The shaggy dog zinnia looked promising, but then its petals drooped.

"The dinosaur zinnia was a great P1--are you still able to keep it going?...I hope so!"

My original dinosaur zinnia appeared outdoors last year in my Wellsville zinnia patch. I brought in several cuttings from the dinosaur zinnia (C65) to save them from the Frost, and they grew indoors until this Spring, but none are still living. However, all of them did produce seed, and I have several progeny from it blooming now, one of which is the "shaggy dog". Many of the dinosaur progeny have the big stigmas, and I think of them as a family of "big stigs". The shaggy dog flower form is a byproduct of my ongoing attempts to create a race of super giant zinnias. Dahlias and sunflowers seem to be able to produce flowers a foot or more across, so I would like to achieve a comparable size with zinnias.

I am also interested in flower forms derived from the scabiosa flowered zinnias, which replace the usual fuzzy yellow pollen bearing florets with petal-like florets. This is a picture of a current scabi recombinant that has multiple rows of guard petals.

I plan to intercross several of my scabi recombinants to help purify that strain while introducing more variation (and flower size) within it. I am currently planting my final seedbed for a Fall generation of zinnias. I'll be growing some more zinnias indoors this Winter. Hopefully some of them will be shaggy dogs.

ZM

The Shaggy Dog is actually more interesting with the drooping petals, I think. I can't imagine how it would have looked if the petals had been horizontal--, and I guess the sheer weight of that size of petal caused the drooping!

Large scabious flowers could be interesting, too. I am seeing more fill out among my scabious flowers.

One more "toothy" flower is becoming larger.

Here is the quilled white flower once again.

As I collect seeds now, I see that the whirligig flowers' seeds mature more slowly than the other types of flowers. An older flower often has seeds that still are white and moist..

JG

Here's another one I found today. This really reminds me of a dahlia!!

For everyone who has not yet raised a zinnia garden, there is another benefit. Lots and lots of butterflies come. I have seen twenty different kinds of butterflies visiting my zinnias this year!!

JG

On a fully double Zinnia, I often found no anthers. Like this one:

Do they have no anthers or did I just miss them?

Some zinnias may have no anthers, just stigmas-- although they may develop anthers later, when fully mature. Anthers are usually fully visible, in the bright yellow flowers you see near the center of the zinnia. You can easily see these in the "toothy" flower I posted earlier today, Tue, Jul 27, at 17:28. The little bright yellow flowers shed pollen from their yellow "edges" while they also have stigmas in the central parts of the structures.

JG

siichan,

"Do they have no anthers or did I just miss them?"

You did not miss them. The flower you show apparently does not have any disk florets, which normally contain the anthers concealed in the tube of the floret.

Sometimes the central zinnia bloom will not have any disk florets, but blooms on lateral branches may have some disk florets. I don't mind having zinnia blooms without disk florets, because they make good females which don't need to be emasculated for cross pollination.

Sometimes a normally pollen-free zinnia will respond to some kind of stress by producing disk florets. As you can see in this picture, at any particular time, some zinnias can have pollen while others won't.

In order to cross-pollinate your zinnias, you simply look for good zinnias that are presenting pollen, and you place that pollen on the stigmas of selected "good" zinnias.

The situation with scabiosa flowered zinnias gets more complicated, because some of their disk florets will have hidden pollen in the florets, and some of their florets will have receptive stigmas. Some will have both, and produce selfed floret seeds.

Also, the rare tubular-petaled zinnias can have anthers hidden within the tubes of their tubular ray petals. Some scabiosa flowered specimens will have both conventional fuzzy yellow florets as well as smooth petal-colored florets.

I usually don't use pollen from them, because I don't like the look of the mixed floret situation. But that is merely a matter of personal preference.

ZM

JG,

That last "pointy-petalled" scarlet specimen (that reminds you of a dahlia) is another breakthrough in flower form in your zinnia patch. I really like that look. If I had one like that, I would be very excited. That could be the basis for another good strain of zinnias. I never cease to be amazed by the new surprises that keep coming out of the zinnia DNA.

ZM

Here is another nice description of the yellow disc, pollen-bearing, floret in the zinnia, which is a member of the Asteraceae, or composite family:

"The androecium of Asteraceae comprises five stamens. In almost all species, the anthers are fused together, forming a ring around the style. This tube of anthers is an important part [of]the pollen presentation mechanism of composites. The anthers (and pollen) mature before the stigmas and shed their pollen into the cylinder formed by the anthers. There is only one style, but it ends in two style branches which are stigmatic only on their inner, facing surfaces. At the time when the anthers are shedding their pollen, the style is short and its two branches are pressed together. As the style elongates, it grows up through the ring of anthers, with the branches still pressed together. The pollen is then pushed out of the anther cylinder by the tops of the style branches, which often have short hairs on their outer surfaces. This [makes] the pollen available to any passing insect but, because the style branches are still appressed to each other, none will land on the floret's own stigmas. Once the style has elongated to the point where the branches are completely above the anther ring, the style branches bend back, exposing the stigmatic surfaces but, by then, most of the floret's own pollen will have been dispersed. In other words, this pollen presentation mechanism is a means of preventing self-pollination." (http://herbarium.usu.edu/taxa/asteraceae.htm)

JG

JG,

That's an excellent detailed description of the zinnia's pollen presentation process. Wikipedia says, "Collectively, the stamens are called an androecium (from Greek andros oikia: man's house)" on their Stamen page.

There are occasional exceptions to the Utah State University Herbarium description. For example, occasionally in zinnias you will see stigmas (styles) with three end branches. Occasionally the zinnia androecium will be composed of six stamens, instead of five, and in a few rare instances, I have seen more. I don't know if these deviant zinnia traits are genetic or not.

That quotation from USU Herbarium's description does not mention nectar in the androeciums (that probably should be androecia, but I am not a big fan of Latin). Apparently there is nectar in them, or at their base, because butterflies drink from them, and apparently the small ants in this picture are engaged in drinking nectar from the florets of this scabious recombinant.

I am always suspicious when I see ants on my zinnia blooms, because some ants "herd" aphids. But I don't see any evidence of aphids in this instance. I am curious just how and where those ants are getting the zinnia nectar.

ZM

Hi all,

I have mentioned before that I like zinnia flowers to have an "open" flower form, with petals loosely spaced so that you can "see through" the flower. This young bloom is an example of a zinnia flower that you can "see through".

Of course, as it adds more petals it won't be quite so open, but it will still have good separation between the petals. I like to intercross such zinnias in order to get more variety in the "open" flower form.

ZM

The last "airy" lavender flower is really nice..if you get a chance, please show it after it has filled out some...I'd really like to see what it looks like then! It looks like there would be still plenty of space between petals!

That was interesting that the ants are so attracted to your white scabious zinnia. Just from observing the butterflies here, it seems that there must be nectaries at the bases of the disc florets when both stamens and pistils are present...but the florets of the scabious flowers aren't necessarily pollen-bearing. They seem to be somewhat of an intermediate structure between disc and ray floret...maybe sometimes they produce nectar, and sometimes not! Just a guess here.

JG

JG,

I will try to remember to get a follow-up picture of the "airy" lavender. The "pink shaggy dog" has a unique flower form, but I have had other zinnias with petals that tended to hang down noticeably, like this one.

I don't think it is just gravity that makes the petals hang down. It appears to be a genetic proclivity for the petals to "want to" hang down. It hit 100 here today, with a Heat Index warning in effect. More later.

ZM

JG,

This is another bloom forming on the "Pink Shaggy Dog" zinnia and, it too, seems to have petals that "want to" hang down.

Several years ago I had an orange cactus zinnia whose petals hung way down. This is an old video frame picture of it.

At that time, I was concerned that something was wrong with it. Now I think it was probably genetic, and a possible new flower form for zinnias. More later.

ZM

I think the shaggy dog look in your zinnias is a really attractive and new form, especially with the long narrow petals the flowers have. It looks like you have that trait among several of your plants and that it won't be too difficult to amplify your new strain.

I think it was two years ago that I had my zinnia "Droopy."

I haven't seen such a zinnia since in my garden.

JG

JG,

Your pink "Droopy" looked better than my orange one. I guess we both didn't have the right mindset when this flower form variant first appeared for us. I'm on the watch for "droopies" now. I agree that the "droopy" flowers look better in long narrow petals, and our original experiences were with rather broad cactus-style petals.

"The last "airy" lavender flower is really nice..if you get a chance, please show it after it has filled out some...I'd really like to see what it looks like then! It looks like there would be still plenty of space between petals!"

Here is its picture, taken today. There still is some space between the petals, but it is "throwing pollen", a bit of a disappointment.

I'm thinking forward now to the Fall, when I will be gathering seedheads. I can simplify that task now by culling out all of my non-breeders, of which I have quite a few. And I need to tag the breeders. Busy, busy. More later.

ZM

Just got back from a trip to Houston--very hot--but Indiana is a good match for heat these days! Down in Texas, I saw some salmon-colored zinnias in a butterfly garden.

The main garden here is getting so high, I can nearly get lost in it! Many zinnias are well over five feet tall!

Your last zinnia still is OK. I wouldn't hold the pollen against it--for the time being, it can be a male parent! I'm always glad when I get a zinnia I like throwing some pollen, as I can then attempt to self it.

I've got so many flowers now--no more new mutations, but here are a few blooms I saw today:

JG

Here are a couple more flowers from today:

This one is nice because it is not only bright, but has very fine petals that are white on the reverse side.

This is a multicolored, quill-petalled flower:

JG

JG,

You have some excellent breeder material there. It would be so tempting to cross and intercross them willy-nilly.

"...especially with the long narrow petals the flowers have. It looks like you have that trait among several of your plants and that it won't be too difficult to amplify your new strain. "

I do have a fairly good assortment of the long, straight "aster flowered" petals.

I really like that flowerform, because it is a bit different, less formal, and is less "closely packed" than many of the traditional zinnias. It also influences the classic cactus flowered form into a slightly more relaxed "bed-head" look.

I am a bit surprised at how quickly those long straight petals have spread into my gene pool.

You should feel pleased that so many of your zinnias are unique and don't look like they came from any commercial seed packet. You have the makings of several interesting new strains of zinnias. I see you got another of the "needle-petaled" flowers. I still hope to get one or more of those later this year in my Whirligigs, which are beginning to form buds now. More later.

ZM

I think the long, straight petals and the spaces left between them are the unique aspects of your flowers. The color of the last flower you have shown is great! That shade of pink is not all that common!

I continue to get plenty of "Extreme Roll" progeny. I hope the F2 generation continues to show the traits I hope for, as opposed to the "July Bonnet" F2, where all but one plant did not show the hoped for-traits!

I am collecting lots of seeds now, trying to beat the finches to the harvest. As in years before, I harvest the seeds before they are dried down on the plant, but dry them down on newspaper afterwards for some time. I pick only the fat, somewhat dark green-colored seeds.

Here is the dahlia-like flower that I showed before and that had pointed petals. As you can see, only the oldest petals are pointed, and as the newer petals have emerged, they are either "toothy" or normal.

JG

We're getting the heat back now, but it's OK, as I am gathering seed, and I fear the coolness and dampness that may lead to mildew. It seems that the seeds rapidly decline in quality when mildew comes.

I found an interesting flower today, probably a descendent of a Queen Red Lime that I grew last year, but looking different with a pink center and green border.

JG

JG,

I'm glad you reminded me about collecting seed this time of year. I should do likewise. Even though my zinnias are growing like mad in this heat, I am sure there are some mature seedheads hidden underneath all that foliage.

Your Queen Red Lime descendant is quite novel. I need to grow some of those myself. I would try to get the flowerform into something less closely packed, with longer slender petals. I think there are some interesting bicolor green-and-color possibilities there.

That red dahlia flowered specimen with toothy bottom petals is quite unique. Zinnia DNA seems to have a lot of imagination.

A high percentage of my scabiosa recombinants are still culls, but a few show the possibilities of the new style of florets.

I think the red spots are plant-bug bites. Despite the high cull rate, I have enough good scabious-derived examples that I can intercross them, which hopefully will make some more progress toward getting a strain. I also want to involve the "dinosaur" genes into the scabious recombinants. I still want to see some dinosaur scabi florets.

ZM

It's interesting to see all the types of different structures in the central part of that last zinnia! The color is interesting, too--kind of a tan-salmon. I saw a cactus type today with that type of color. It, too, is, insect-bitten.

This is a typical eye-level view of the main garden as I search for seeds:

I think I will try and start a line of toothy zinnias, too, so am collecting some of those seeds to start a patch next year. I picture a large, full flower with very ragged ends, but this little one below is hardly that:

Here are some of the cactus blooms I have in my garden. Most are very full, with a tendency toward curliness; some start out airy-looking, but few remain that way!:

By the way, did you grow up commercial scabious seeds for 2010 this year? Did you get any true-to-type? I didn't get one!!

JG

JG,

You have some beautiful fantasy flowered cactus types. That last one satisfies my criterion for "open flowered" that you can "see through", but the others would look good as a select strain. You've definitely got the "toothy" gene, and it has great potential in a fully double, or even a partially double, flower form.

"...did you grow up commercial scabious seeds for 2010 this year?"

I did not, but, believe it or not, today I plan to plant some on-hand Parks Candy Mix from last year in a newly opened spot. My rationale for such a late Fall in-garden zinnia planting is that, if I get anything good, as a back-up plan I can rescue it from an impending frost by taking one or more cuttings. My "dinosaur" zinnia was a cuttings rescue from a frost last year.

This year my scabious recombinants have had a high cull rate. There are borderline ones, like the one in this picture, that I haven't decided on yet.

It's throwing some conventional pollen, and I don't like that, but it looks pretty good anyway. I probably won't use it as a breeder, but I might spare it for the butterflies. They do like it. More later.

ZM

Your scabious recombinant looks like the ones I have this year with the mixed florets; the shade of purple is nice. I don't think I have that color among mine. The scabious zinnias I have are from seeds of those scabious plants that were open-pollinated with all the other flowers in my main garden last year. Surprisingly, the flowers in the short row (from scabious seeds) that I planted don't show any of the traits that you might see in whirligig or cactus plants, and conversely, it doesn't seem that the plants from the other 2009 seeds last year in my garden show scabious traits. This seems that the scabious plants may not cross easily with the other types of zinnias in my garden. Of course, of the plants coming from last year's scabious seeds, only about 25% of the flowers have the scabious florets--the rest look daisy-like. Here are some of the flowers coming from last year's scabious seeds for me:

If you are growing a lot of seeds from the 2009 Candy Mix, I think you will be pleased with the results. True, just a few will have the scabious flower form, but those that do are really nice in color and form--if you are using the same lot of seeds I used last year.

Here are two Extreme Roll F1 sibs, growing close together, and showing different shades of purple:

JG

JG,

Your quilled-petal Extreme Rolls are mind blowing! They are a whole new kind of zinnia flower. I am so impressed, and looking forward to the establishment of a strain of those in all zinnia colors. Your last picture gives a strong hint of just how ornamental they could be in the landscape, or as cut flowers.

I planted several packets of Parks Candy Mix from 2009 in the last couple of days. I have a couple more packets I plan to plant tomorrow. They are nominally 50 seeds per packet, so I am hoping for at least a few breeder-class scabious types from them. In your last gallery, that top-middle specimen has red-tipped florets -- a trait with potential.

Some zinnias, like the commercial Exquisite strain, have a richly colored pigment that quickly fades, giving a color-changing effect. This current specimen also has that trait.

Apparently that one also has some "Dinosaur zinnia" genes, based on petal shapes and large stigmas. I think it is safe to say that the color fading trait is genetic. I wouldn't want all of my zinnias to fade, but it makes an interesting change of pace.

ZM

I like the shape and length of the petals on your zinnias like the pink one above. I think you have quite a strain in that founded by the "dinosaur." Have you gotten any more "shaggy dogs"?

I grew Esquisites last year, and I believe I see the influence of them on many of my zinnias, possibly even that
Queen Red Lime descendent I showed earlier. Here are some of those with the darker centers:

Last year, I collected the seeds of the Magellan zinnias I had and this year grew them out. The plants are all about 3 feet tall, and have huge blooms--interesting..

JG

JG,

You have some nice "Exquisite" derived specimens.

"Have you gotten any more "shaggy dogs"?"

I don't have any more Shaggy Dogs right now, although I think that this one might go "shaggy" if it were crossed with a "dinosaur" flower form.

I have a few others with some "droopy" tendencies to their lower petals, and I am keeping an eye on them.

"Last year, I collected the seeds of the Magellan zinnias I had and this year grew them out. The plants are all about 3 feet tall, and have huge blooms--interesting..."

That is interesting, and somewhat surprising. It makes me wonder if there could be some good results from crossing Magellans with other zinnias. I have a few Magellan seeds on hand. Maybe I will plant a few as an experiment. More later.

ZM

I don't think much of my Esquisite-like offspring, but I'll collect the seed and see what they yield next year along with the other seeds.

Your last pink flower is another beauty--it seems like you are getting more and more consistent results with your plants!

I've got a jumble of all sorts of things here. There is one whirligig type that is droopy in another way--the stems droop down from the plant. From a distance the flowers are kind of interesting.

Then, I have more Extreme Roll F1s--the below are flowers from a plant whose blooms are not so "extreme."

JR

JG,

"I don't think much of my Exquisite-like offspring, but I'll collect the seed..."

I agree that they aren't particularly unusual, but you never know when a bee cross-pollination might bring out something new. A few of my Whirligigs are starting to bloom now, but nothing special so far. No "needle" petals yet. I do have a non-whirligig "toothy" specimen coming into bloom from an old hybrid recombinant.

Its seed were saved in 2006, from a side branch that was toothy. The central branch of that plant was not toothy. At the time I wondered if the side branch was, in effect, a "bud sport" and I wondered if the seeds from that branch would be toothy. From time to time I have seen zinnias that seemed to have genetic differences between branches on the same plant, and apparently that toothy branch was an example of that. Apparently the "toothy" mutation is fairly common in zinnias. But they might make a nice strain, just for the novelty of it. More later.

ZM

I think the toothy trait has a lot of possibilities for a new strain. As I said before, I think it would be nice to develop a large, multi-petaled, very toothy flower that would appear as if it had many more petals than it really did because of the toothiness-- kind of like the effect you see with a star magnolia flower and its split-petals. Interesting that you saw a branch mutation that was hereditary! It's definitely something we should keep in mind when seeing mutations on plants--it's worth saving the seeds!

When I see the whirligig descendents bloom, it always crosses my mind that it might also be worthwhile to develop a "daisy" strain of whirligigs, having only one layer of petals, but multiple color combinations in the mix such as I saw in some of my flowers below:

I never tire of the color combinations that appear!

JG

JG,

"...it would be nice to develop a large, multi-petaled, very toothy flower that would appear as if it had many more petals than it really did because of the toothiness..."

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why my interest in toothy zinnia petals persists. What we need now is a "super toothy" mutant. The more "toothies" we grow, the better our chances of finding one.

"...it might also be worthwhile to develop a "daisy" strain of whirligigs, having only one layer of petals, but multiple color combinations in the mix..."

I have to agree with that. The examples you just showed are most convincing. The single, or near single, flower form doesn't hide the two-color or three-color patterns, and shows them to the best effect.

I don't like a lot of yellow florets in the center, but maybe some scabiosa recombinations could replace those with something more ornamental. And I always want to re-design the petal form, into something a bit unusual. But a strain or strains of big multicolor daisy-like zinnias could be very successful.

I should cross my good Whirligig color patterns with various other zinnias, including those with unusual petals (like the Dinosaurs) and those with modified florets (like the scabious). I have some Whirligigs coming into bloom now, but so far nothing unusual.

Hopefully I will eventually get some "needle petaled" or "pencil petaled" Whirligig specimens.

ZM

Yes, I think repeated selection of toothy-flowered plants will hopefully lead to an exagerated toothy-flowered plant.
Maybe one of us will get lucky and have a mutation with heavily toothed flowers that just spontaneously arises! That is wishful thinking, probably.

You've got a good idea in trying to carry the whirligig pattern into more ornamental flowers. Sometimes I get that sort of result randomly, but not through a planned breeding program.

Well, then, take a look at a few of my July Bonnet F-2 individuals. First, the July Bonnet F1 parent, rather flat and saucer-like, looked like this in 2009:

This was selfed, and now I have just about as wide a variety of zinnias among the F2s as I have in the whole garden! Included in the F2s are some of what I called "stacked" zinnias--with lots of petals and a deep bloom. These certainly aren't favorites of mine, but shown just to give you an idea of how recombinants can turn out.

JG

JG,

The wide diversity in the F2s from July Bonnet surprised me. I guess they show that it was a rather complex hybrid, containing stripes and "stacked" flower forms.

I have a second "toothy" that bloomed today. I pollinated it with pollen from the first. I'll try to take some pictures tomorrow. More later.

ZM

JG,

This is a picture of the new "toothy", taken a few minutes ago.

If you look closely, you will see that a small flower spider has found a practical use for one of the "teeth". It is hiding behind it. More later.

ZM

The petals on your flowers are truly toothy. If your plants are like mine, the toothiness should carry well into the next generation. I wonder if it isn't a dominant trait? Your flowers are more extreme in that trait than mine. Will look forward to what the offspring look like!

Here are two more of my Extreme Roll offspring. These flowers are on the same plant.

I am still busy collecting seed. I am going to have quite a lot! We are approaching drought conditions here. That is pretty obvious when even the zinnias are wilting! This dryness is causing the plants to be very slow in forming new flowers.

JG

JG,

I think it is possible that "toothiness" is a dominant trait. Let's hope that it is controlled by more than one gene, so that there can be different degrees of it, including the yet-to-be-seen "super toothiness".

Your Extreme Roll offspring are showing encouraging signs of genetic persistence. That looks like a strain is very possible. Perhaps next year we can trade some seeds. Apparently we each have some stuff the other one doesn't have, and deepening our gene pools could result in some new zinnia traits emerging for both of us.

Hi everyone,

This message thread is near the 100 mark, and understandably somewhat slow to load, so I am continuing it over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 15 for a "fresh" start.

I look forward to seeing you all over there.

ZM