ZM,

The last flower you've shown has an interesting combination of scabious and whirligig traits. I've always liked the curly petals, and the color combinations there are rich.

I probably should have spent more time in crossing my 2009 scabious flowers by hand. I have a row of plants coming up from seeds of randomly crossed scabious flowers that I grew last year--it will be interesting to see how many actually are scabious in this second generation when they have crossed on their own device.

I have just come back from the annual conference of the Seed Savers Exchange in Iowa--interesting and informative meeting. I saw no zinnias in the gardens there, however.

But, back home we have had plenty of rain and I noticed the interesting variety among these Extreme Roll F1s and their cousins (F1s of Extreme Roll P1 sibs).

These are F1s--more long petals, with little or slight rolling (a number more have shown the "extreme roll" as well):

{{gwi:11128}}

{{gwi:11129}}

These are cousins of the F1s. One almost has tubelike petals-- will keep seeds of these to follow the various traits as well.

{{gwi:11130}}

{{gwi:11131}}

JG

ZM,

Here are some flowers I've seen today. The garden is full of flowers, and I love being out there despite the mosquitoes. Water and/or insect damage is apparent on many of the flowers.

A crinkled purple:

{{gwi:11132}}

A double red-centered flower:

{{gwi:11134}}

A curly cactus:

{{gwi:11136}}

A bright whirligig:

{{gwi:11138}}

JG

JG,

Splendid pictures! Your curly cactus is equivalent to my Medusa. We should select out curly cactus strains. Long ago, nearly before my time even, there was a strain of medium sized very curly zinnias called "Fantasy". At least one got an All America Selections medal, and they were available in several separate colors. I grew several as a kid on the farm. I think I have mentioned them before. Like many good zinnia strains, the Fantasy strains are no more. But we obviously could re-create them, in a larger size. On a somewhat different note, this is another of my scabiosa-influenced recombinants.

{{gwi:11140}}
It also has Whirligig influence. We are having hot, humid weather with Heat Indexes over 100. Mosquitoes haven't been too bad, but I have been wearing an Off Clip-on. More later.

ZM

ZM,

It looks like crossing by hand definitely has its benefits when trying to obtain the scabious traits. I like the "loud" colors I see in that last flower. The whirligigs really contribute to that. I think you're right in trying to get back the curly cactus flowers. I have a pretty good number of cactus flowers right now, and I will select the ones for curliness for one category of seed-saving. I have no cactus blooms like the ones you get through breeding with the straight, airy petals.

Here are a few flowers from yesterday's garden:

{{gwi:11142}}

{{gwi:11143}}

{{gwi:11144}}

JG

Hi all,

Here are a few more...

{{gwi:11145}}

{{gwi:11146}}

{{gwi:11147}}

JG

JG,

Wow! You have some good ones! And some more of those "needle" petal types. That white narrow-petal could turn out to be a great specimen. I planted a bunch of Whirligigs in an attempt to get some of those needle-petal types, but they haven't bloomed yet. This is another of my current specimens with some scabious influence:

{{gwi:11148}}
Today I culled more than a dozen singles, which are also the result of "scabious influence". I'm working on another seedbed, which will probably be my last this Summer. We are having near-record Heat Indexes. More later.

ZM

ZM,

You are brave to be still planting in this heat wave that we have! The young zinnias will no doubt like it. And, I suspect you will see more scabious zinnias from your own seed than from the commercial source this year, such as you have shown with that last picture!

At least, that is the case for me. I can see that about 30% of the seeds I harvested from randomly pollinated scabious flowers of 2009 are resulting in scabious flowers from a sample lot planted this year.
Here is one of them below:

{{gwi:11149}}

It will probably fill out more and look a little fuller in the coming days.

JG

Hi all,

This is another of my scabiosa recombinant zinnias. If you look closely, you can see a few small ants on the bloom.

{{gwi:11150}}
Since its guard petals are long, I usually think of these as "echinacea flowered" or "echie" for short.

ZM

Hi JG,

I see you posted a good looking scabiosa flowered specimen while I was preparing my last post. I do have several new scabiosa-derived recombinants, and this is one of them:

{{gwi:11151}}
It has a fuller center than many of my recombinants, which gives it a sunflower look. I like the fuller centers, because they are a little unusual. This heat is making my zinnias grow fast, and I need to foliar feed them again, to satisfy their appetites and correct some trace element deficiencies. Apparently the soil and the water here are a bit deficient in boron. We might get rain tomorrow, and that hopefully will cool things off a little. More later.

ZM

ZM,

Your white flower is pretty with the yellow-tinted florets in the center! The scabious flowers with a whirligig coloring are nice. I like the fuller centers on both.

Here are some of mine from today:

A scabious flower arising from last year's seed--

{{gwi:11152}}

A whirligig-Benary cross, probably--

{{gwi:11153}}

Another curly cactus--

{{gwi:11155}}

A July Bonnet F2 (the variety seen in these offspring amaze me!) I finally got a July Bonnet F2, somewhat on-type (not shown here)--

{{gwi:11157}}

Anotrher crinkly pink; I seem to have a lot of those--

{{gwi:11158}}

JG

JG,

Your pink crinkly zinnias are better than any commercial variety, in my opinion. Your pictured July Bonnet F2 appeals to me, and it may have Scabiosa heritage. Which suggests that the original July Bonnet may have been scabiosa-derived.

I notice that your latest curly cactus zinnia actually is also bi-colored, as was the previous one, indicating probable Whirligig ancestry.

I notice that most of the successive blooms on my Medusa specimen are now just curly cactus, as shown in this photo:

{{gwi:11160}}
That makes me wonder if many of the curly cactus specimens don't have the potential to fill in and create the Medusa look. More later.

ZM

ZM,

I wouldn't be surprised if those cactus blooms you show mature further to turn into "Medusas." My really curly flowers start out as cactuses then become fuller with time. Those are really nice flowers you show there!

Last year I had a few plants whose flowers had what I would call "ragged edges." I planted the seeds and this year I see that the ragged edges are carrying through to the second generation. Here is an example:

{{gwi:11162}}

Here is another flower of whirligig ancestry:

{{gwi:11164}}

JG

JG,

You have had lots of new and unique zinnias that you don't see offered as commercial strains. The zinnia that you refer to as having "ragged edges" has what I have been referring to as "toothy" petals. I like that unusual ragged toothy petal shape, and I use them as breeders when I see them. Hopefully someday I can get a dependable strain of big ragged toothy zinnias. That last flower is amazing, with its range of colors and sophisticated petal forms.

This is one of my recent blooms that I am rather excited about.

{{gwi:11166}}
If those long dangling petals were standing out horizontally, that bloom would be in excess of 7 inches in diameter, perhaps even beyond 8 inches. As it is, I like the flower form and the corrugated texture of its petals. The flower is deeper than it is wide. It reminds me a bit of a pink shaggy dog. Incidentally, one of its parents was the "Dinosaur zinnia" with the huge stigmas. The stigmas on this one are also quite large, but they don't look so large alongside the extra long petals. Needless to say, this "shaggy dog" is a breeder. More later.

ZM

ZM,

That last flower is absolutely beautiful--there is no doubt that all the years you have put into breeding zinnias has paid off! That plant is definitely a breeder--I hope you get many more like it, and have the opportunity to show them off at a horticultural event. The dinosaur zinnia was a great P1--are you still able to keep it going?...I hope so! Nonetheless, you have this newest plant to work with...I would get as many cuttings as possible to amplify it! I have no doubt that all of us seeing that flower are jealous!

I have a big variety of plants, but nothing so exciting. My Extreme Roll progeny continue to bloom, though, showing some variation, flower to flower.

{{gwi:11168}}

{{gwi:11169}}

JG

JG,

You have made impressive progress with your Extreme Roll progeny. That first picture shows a specimen that seems to have two distinct zones in the flower. There seems to be an outer zone of rolled guard petals and an inner zone with a mound of more conventional petals. I think your Extreme Rolls have a lot of possibilities.

Thanks for the kind words about the "shaggy dog". I'm glad you share my enthusiasm for it. I definitely hope to create a strain like it, or better. At first that specimen was a disappointment, because I had crossed the Dinosaur zinnia with some large cactus types in the hopes of achieving 8-inch plus super giant zinnias. The shaggy dog zinnia looked promising, but then its petals drooped.

"The dinosaur zinnia was a great P1--are you still able to keep it going?...I hope so!"

My original dinosaur zinnia appeared outdoors last year in my Wellsville zinnia patch. I brought in several cuttings from the dinosaur zinnia (C65) to save them from the Frost, and they grew indoors until this Spring, but none are still living. However, all of them did produce seed, and I have several progeny from it blooming now, one of which is the "shaggy dog". Many of the dinosaur progeny have the big stigmas, and I think of them as a family of "big stigs". The shaggy dog flower form is a byproduct of my ongoing attempts to create a race of super giant zinnias. Dahlias and sunflowers seem to be able to produce flowers a foot or more across, so I would like to achieve a comparable size with zinnias.

I am also interested in flower forms derived from the scabiosa flowered zinnias, which replace the usual fuzzy yellow pollen bearing florets with petal-like florets. This is a picture of a current scabi recombinant that has multiple rows of guard petals.

{{gwi:11170}}
I plan to intercross several of my scabi recombinants to help purify that strain while introducing more variation (and flower size) within it. I am currently planting my final seedbed for a Fall generation of zinnias. I'll be growing some more zinnias indoors this Winter. Hopefully some of them will be shaggy dogs.

ZM

ZM,

The Shaggy Dog is actually more interesting with the drooping petals, I think. I can't imagine how it would have looked if the petals had been horizontal--, and I guess the sheer weight of that size of petal caused the drooping!

Large scabious flowers could be interesting, too. I am seeing more fill out among my scabious flowers.

{{gwi:11171}}

One more "toothy" flower is becoming larger.

{{gwi:11172}}

Here is the quilled white flower once again.

{{gwi:11173}}

As I collect seeds now, I see that the whirligig flowers' seeds mature more slowly than the other types of flowers. An older flower often has seeds that still are white and moist..

JG

ZM,

Here's another one I found today. This really reminds me of a dahlia!!

{{gwi:11174}}

For everyone who has not yet raised a zinnia garden, there is another benefit. Lots and lots of butterflies come. I have seen twenty different kinds of butterflies visiting my zinnias this year!!

JG

Hi guys,
I've been lurking on these zinnia threads. I'm trying to breed some zinnias too. But I have a question.

On a fully double Zinnia, I often found no anthers. Like this one:
{{gwi:11175}}

Do they have no anthers or did I just miss them?

Hi Siichan,

Some zinnias may have no anthers, just stigmas-- although they may develop anthers later, when fully mature. Anthers are usually fully visible, in the bright yellow flowers you see near the center of the zinnia. You can easily see these in the "toothy" flower I posted earlier today, Tue, Jul 27, at 17:28. The little bright yellow flowers shed pollen from their yellow "edges" while they also have stigmas in the central parts of the structures.

JG

siichan,

"Do they have no anthers or did I just miss them?"

You did not miss them. The flower you show apparently does not have any disk florets, which normally contain the anthers concealed in the tube of the floret.

Sometimes the central zinnia bloom will not have any disk florets, but blooms on lateral branches may have some disk florets. I don't mind having zinnia blooms without disk florets, because they make good females which don't need to be emasculated for cross pollination.

Sometimes a normally pollen-free zinnia will respond to some kind of stress by producing disk florets. As you can see in this picture, at any particular time, some zinnias can have pollen while others won't.

{{gwi:11176}}
In order to cross-pollinate your zinnias, you simply look for good zinnias that are presenting pollen, and you place that pollen on the stigmas of selected "good" zinnias.

The situation with scabiosa flowered zinnias gets more complicated, because some of their disk florets will have hidden pollen in the florets, and some of their florets will have receptive stigmas. Some will have both, and produce selfed floret seeds.

Also, the rare tubular-petaled zinnias can have anthers hidden within the tubes of their tubular ray petals. Some scabiosa flowered specimens will have both conventional fuzzy yellow florets as well as smooth petal-colored florets.

{{gwi:11177}}
I usually don't use pollen from them, because I don't like the look of the mixed floret situation. But that is merely a matter of personal preference.

ZM

JG,

That last "pointy-petalled" scarlet specimen (that reminds you of a dahlia) is another breakthrough in flower form in your zinnia patch. I really like that look. If I had one like that, I would be very excited. That could be the basis for another good strain of zinnias. I never cease to be amazed by the new surprises that keep coming out of the zinnia DNA.

ZM

Hi all,

Here is another nice description of the yellow disc, pollen-bearing, floret in the zinnia, which is a member of the Asteraceae, or composite family:

"The androecium of Asteraceae comprises five stamens. In almost all species, the anthers are fused together, forming a ring around the style. This tube of anthers is an important part [of]the pollen presentation mechanism of composites. The anthers (and pollen) mature before the stigmas and shed their pollen into the cylinder formed by the anthers. There is only one style, but it ends in two style branches which are stigmatic only on their inner, facing surfaces. At the time when the anthers are shedding their pollen, the style is short and its two branches are pressed together. As the style elongates, it grows up through the ring of anthers, with the branches still pressed together. The pollen is then pushed out of the anther cylinder by the tops of the style branches, which often have short hairs on their outer surfaces. This [makes] the pollen available to any passing insect but, because the style branches are still appressed to each other, none will land on the floret's own stigmas. Once the style has elongated to the point where the branches are completely above the anther ring, the style branches bend back, exposing the stigmatic surfaces but, by then, most of the floret's own pollen will have been dispersed. In other words, this pollen presentation mechanism is a means of preventing self-pollination." (http://herbarium.usu.edu/taxa/asteraceae.htm)

JG

JG,

That's an excellent detailed description of the zinnia's pollen presentation process. Wikipedia says, "Collectively, the stamens are called an androecium (from Greek andros oikia: man's house)" on their Stamen page.

There are occasional exceptions to the Utah State University Herbarium description. For example, occasionally in zinnias you will see stigmas (styles) with three end branches. Occasionally the zinnia androecium will be composed of six stamens, instead of five, and in a few rare instances, I have seen more. I don't know if these deviant zinnia traits are genetic or not.

That quotation from USU Herbarium's description does not mention nectar in the androeciums (that probably should be androecia, but I am not a big fan of Latin). Apparently there is nectar in them, or at their base, because butterflies drink from them, and apparently the small ants in this picture are engaged in drinking nectar from the florets of this scabious recombinant.

{{gwi:11178}}
I am always suspicious when I see ants on my zinnia blooms, because some ants "herd" aphids. But I don't see any evidence of aphids in this instance. I am curious just how and where those ants are getting the zinnia nectar.

ZM

Hi all,

I have mentioned before that I like zinnia flowers to have an "open" flower form, with petals loosely spaced so that you can "see through" the flower. This young bloom is an example of a zinnia flower that you can "see through".

{{gwi:11179}}
Of course, as it adds more petals it won't be quite so open, but it will still have good separation between the petals. I like to intercross such zinnias in order to get more variety in the "open" flower form.

ZM

ZM,

The last "airy" lavender flower is really nice..if you get a chance, please show it after it has filled out some...I'd really like to see what it looks like then! It looks like there would be still plenty of space between petals!

That was interesting that the ants are so attracted to your white scabious zinnia. Just from observing the butterflies here, it seems that there must be nectaries at the bases of the disc florets when both stamens and pistils are present...but the florets of the scabious flowers aren't necessarily pollen-bearing. They seem to be somewhat of an intermediate structure between disc and ray floret...maybe sometimes they produce nectar, and sometimes not! Just a guess here.

JG

JG,

I will try to remember to get a follow-up picture of the "airy" lavender. The "pink shaggy dog" has a unique flower form, but I have had other zinnias with petals that tended to hang down noticeably, like this one.

{{gwi:11180}}
I don't think it is just gravity that makes the petals hang down. It appears to be a genetic proclivity for the petals to "want to" hang down. It hit 100 here today, with a Heat Index warning in effect. More later.

ZM

JG,

This is another bloom forming on the "Pink Shaggy Dog" zinnia and, it too, seems to have petals that "want to" hang down.

{{gwi:7002}}
Several years ago I had an orange cactus zinnia whose petals hung way down. This is an old video frame picture of it.

{{gwi:11181}}
At that time, I was concerned that something was wrong with it. Now I think it was probably genetic, and a possible new flower form for zinnias. More later.

ZM

ZM,

I think the shaggy dog look in your zinnias is a really attractive and new form, especially with the long narrow petals the flowers have. It looks like you have that trait among several of your plants and that it won't be too difficult to amplify your new strain.

I think it was two years ago that I had my zinnia "Droopy."

{{gwi:11183}}

I haven't seen such a zinnia since in my garden.

JG

JG,

Your pink "Droopy" looked better than my orange one. I guess we both didn't have the right mindset when this flower form variant first appeared for us. I'm on the watch for "droopies" now. I agree that the "droopy" flowers look better in long narrow petals, and our original experiences were with rather broad cactus-style petals.

"The last "airy" lavender flower is really nice..if you get a chance, please show it after it has filled out some...I'd really like to see what it looks like then! It looks like there would be still plenty of space between petals!"

Here is its picture, taken today. There still is some space between the petals, but it is "throwing pollen", a bit of a disappointment.

{{gwi:11186}}
I'm thinking forward now to the Fall, when I will be gathering seedheads. I can simplify that task now by culling out all of my non-breeders, of which I have quite a few. And I need to tag the breeders. Busy, busy. More later.

ZM

ZM,

Just got back from a trip to Houston--very hot--but Indiana is a good match for heat these days! Down in Texas, I saw some salmon-colored zinnias in a butterfly garden.

The main garden here is getting so high, I can nearly get lost in it! Many zinnias are well over five feet tall!

Your last zinnia still is OK. I wouldn't hold the pollen against it--for the time being, it can be a male parent! I'm always glad when I get a zinnia I like throwing some pollen, as I can then attempt to self it.

I've got so many flowers now--no more new mutations, but here are a few blooms I saw today:

{{gwi:11188}}

{{gwi:11191}}

{{gwi:11194}}

JG

Hi everyone!

Here are a couple more flowers from today:

This one is nice because it is not only bright, but has very fine petals that are white on the reverse side.

{{gwi:11197}}

This is a multicolored, quill-petalled flower:

{{gwi:11199}}

JG

JG,

You have some excellent breeder material there. It would be so tempting to cross and intercross them willy-nilly.

"...especially with the long narrow petals the flowers have. It looks like you have that trait among several of your plants and that it won't be too difficult to amplify your new strain. "

I do have a fairly good assortment of the long, straight "aster flowered" petals.

{{gwi:11202}}
I really like that flowerform, because it is a bit different, less formal, and is less "closely packed" than many of the traditional zinnias. It also influences the classic cactus flowered form into a slightly more relaxed "bed-head" look.

{{gwi:11204}}
I am a bit surprised at how quickly those long straight petals have spread into my gene pool.

You should feel pleased that so many of your zinnias are unique and don't look like they came from any commercial seed packet. You have the makings of several interesting new strains of zinnias. I see you got another of the "needle-petaled" flowers. I still hope to get one or more of those later this year in my Whirligigs, which are beginning to form buds now. More later.

ZM

ZM,

I think the long, straight petals and the spaces left between them are the unique aspects of your flowers. The color of the last flower you have shown is great! That shade of pink is not all that common!

I continue to get plenty of "Extreme Roll" progeny. I hope the F2 generation continues to show the traits I hope for, as opposed to the "July Bonnet" F2, where all but one plant did not show the hoped for-traits!

I am collecting lots of seeds now, trying to beat the finches to the harvest. As in years before, I harvest the seeds before they are dried down on the plant, but dry them down on newspaper afterwards for some time. I pick only the fat, somewhat dark green-colored seeds.

Here is the dahlia-like flower that I showed before and that had pointed petals. As you can see, only the oldest petals are pointed, and as the newer petals have emerged, they are either "toothy" or normal.

{{gwi:11206}}

JG

ZM,

We're getting the heat back now, but it's OK, as I am gathering seed, and I fear the coolness and dampness that may lead to mildew. It seems that the seeds rapidly decline in quality when mildew comes.

I found an interesting flower today, probably a descendent of a Queen Red Lime that I grew last year, but looking different with a pink center and green border.

{{gwi:11208}}

JG

JG,

I'm glad you reminded me about collecting seed this time of year. I should do likewise. Even though my zinnias are growing like mad in this heat, I am sure there are some mature seedheads hidden underneath all that foliage.

Your Queen Red Lime descendant is quite novel. I need to grow some of those myself. I would try to get the flowerform into something less closely packed, with longer slender petals. I think there are some interesting bicolor green-and-color possibilities there.

That red dahlia flowered specimen with toothy bottom petals is quite unique. Zinnia DNA seems to have a lot of imagination.

A high percentage of my scabiosa recombinants are still culls, but a few show the possibilities of the new style of florets.

{{gwi:11210}}
I think the red spots are plant-bug bites. Despite the high cull rate, I have enough good scabious-derived examples that I can intercross them, which hopefully will make some more progress toward getting a strain. I also want to involve the "dinosaur" genes into the scabious recombinants. I still want to see some dinosaur scabi florets.

ZM

ZM,

It's interesting to see all the types of different structures in the central part of that last zinnia! The color is interesting, too--kind of a tan-salmon. I saw a cactus type today with that type of color. It, too, is, insect-bitten.

{{gwi:11212}}

This is a typical eye-level view of the main garden as I search for seeds:

{{gwi:11213}}

I think I will try and start a line of toothy zinnias, too, so am collecting some of those seeds to start a patch next year. I picture a large, full flower with very ragged ends, but this little one below is hardly that:

{{gwi:11214}}

Here are some of the cactus blooms I have in my garden. Most are very full, with a tendency toward curliness; some start out airy-looking, but few remain that way!:

{{gwi:11215}}

{{gwi:11216}}

{{gwi:11217}}

By the way, did you grow up commercial scabious seeds for 2010 this year? Did you get any true-to-type? I didn't get one!!

JG

JG,

You have some beautiful fantasy flowered cactus types. That last one satisfies my criterion for "open flowered" that you can "see through", but the others would look good as a select strain. You've definitely got the "toothy" gene, and it has great potential in a fully double, or even a partially double, flower form.

"...did you grow up commercial scabious seeds for 2010 this year?"

I did not, but, believe it or not, today I plan to plant some on-hand Parks Candy Mix from last year in a newly opened spot. My rationale for such a late Fall in-garden zinnia planting is that, if I get anything good, as a back-up plan I can rescue it from an impending frost by taking one or more cuttings. My "dinosaur" zinnia was a cuttings rescue from a frost last year.

This year my scabious recombinants have had a high cull rate. There are borderline ones, like the one in this picture, that I haven't decided on yet.

{{gwi:11218}}
It's throwing some conventional pollen, and I don't like that, but it looks pretty good anyway. I probably won't use it as a breeder, but I might spare it for the butterflies. They do like it. More later.

ZM

ZM,

Your scabious recombinant looks like the ones I have this year with the mixed florets; the shade of purple is nice. I don't think I have that color among mine. The scabious zinnias I have are from seeds of those scabious plants that were open-pollinated with all the other flowers in my main garden last year. Surprisingly, the flowers in the short row (from scabious seeds) that I planted don't show any of the traits that you might see in whirligig or cactus plants, and conversely, it doesn't seem that the plants from the other 2009 seeds last year in my garden show scabious traits. This seems that the scabious plants may not cross easily with the other types of zinnias in my garden. Of course, of the plants coming from last year's scabious seeds, only about 25% of the flowers have the scabious florets--the rest look daisy-like. Here are some of the flowers coming from last year's scabious seeds for me:

{{gwi:11220}}{{gwi:11222}}{{gwi:11223}}

{{gwi:11224}}{{gwi:11225}}

If you are growing a lot of seeds from the 2009 Candy Mix, I think you will be pleased with the results. True, just a few will have the scabious flower form, but those that do are really nice in color and form--if you are using the same lot of seeds I used last year.

Here are two Extreme Roll F1 sibs, growing close together, and showing different shades of purple:

{{gwi:11227}}

JG

JG,

Your quilled-petal Extreme Rolls are mind blowing! They are a whole new kind of zinnia flower. I am so impressed, and looking forward to the establishment of a strain of those in all zinnia colors. Your last picture gives a strong hint of just how ornamental they could be in the landscape, or as cut flowers.

I planted several packets of Parks Candy Mix from 2009 in the last couple of days. I have a couple more packets I plan to plant tomorrow. They are nominally 50 seeds per packet, so I am hoping for at least a few breeder-class scabious types from them. In your last gallery, that top-middle specimen has red-tipped florets -- a trait with potential.

Some zinnias, like the commercial Exquisite strain, have a richly colored pigment that quickly fades, giving a color-changing effect. This current specimen also has that trait.

{{gwi:11228}}
Apparently that one also has some "Dinosaur zinnia" genes, based on petal shapes and large stigmas. I think it is safe to say that the color fading trait is genetic. I wouldn't want all of my zinnias to fade, but it makes an interesting change of pace.

ZM

ZM,

I like the shape and length of the petals on your zinnias like the pink one above. I think you have quite a strain in that founded by the "dinosaur." Have you gotten any more "shaggy dogs"?

I grew Esquisites last year, and I believe I see the influence of them on many of my zinnias, possibly even that
Queen Red Lime descendent I showed earlier. Here are some of those with the darker centers:

{{gwi:11229}}{{gwi:11230}}{{gwi:11231}}

{{gwi:11232}}{{gwi:11233}}{{gwi:11234}}

Last year, I collected the seeds of the Magellan zinnias I had and this year grew them out. The plants are all about 3 feet tall, and have huge blooms--interesting..

JG

JG,

You have some nice "Exquisite" derived specimens.

"Have you gotten any more "shaggy dogs"?"

I don't have any more Shaggy Dogs right now, although I think that this one might go "shaggy" if it were crossed with a "dinosaur" flower form.

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I have a few others with some "droopy" tendencies to their lower petals, and I am keeping an eye on them.

"Last year, I collected the seeds of the Magellan zinnias I had and this year grew them out. The plants are all about 3 feet tall, and have huge blooms--interesting..."

That is interesting, and somewhat surprising. It makes me wonder if there could be some good results from crossing Magellans with other zinnias. I have a few Magellan seeds on hand. Maybe I will plant a few as an experiment. More later.

ZM

ZM,

I don't think much of my Esquisite-like offspring, but I'll collect the seed and see what they yield next year along with the other seeds.

Your last pink flower is another beauty--it seems like you are getting more and more consistent results with your plants!

I've got a jumble of all sorts of things here. There is one whirligig type that is droopy in another way--the stems droop down from the plant. From a distance the flowers are kind of interesting.

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Then, I have more Extreme Roll F1s--the below are flowers from a plant whose blooms are not so "extreme."

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JR

JG,

"I don't think much of my Exquisite-like offspring, but I'll collect the seed..."

I agree that they aren't particularly unusual, but you never know when a bee cross-pollination might bring out something new. A few of my Whirligigs are starting to bloom now, but nothing special so far. No "needle" petals yet. I do have a non-whirligig "toothy" specimen coming into bloom from an old hybrid recombinant.

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Its seed were saved in 2006, from a side branch that was toothy. The central branch of that plant was not toothy. At the time I wondered if the side branch was, in effect, a "bud sport" and I wondered if the seeds from that branch would be toothy. From time to time I have seen zinnias that seemed to have genetic differences between branches on the same plant, and apparently that toothy branch was an example of that. Apparently the "toothy" mutation is fairly common in zinnias. But they might make a nice strain, just for the novelty of it. More later.

ZM

ZM,

I think the toothy trait has a lot of possibilities for a new strain. As I said before, I think it would be nice to develop a large, multi-petaled, very toothy flower that would appear as if it had many more petals than it really did because of the toothiness-- kind of like the effect you see with a star magnolia flower and its split-petals. Interesting that you saw a branch mutation that was hereditary! It's definitely something we should keep in mind when seeing mutations on plants--it's worth saving the seeds!

When I see the whirligig descendents bloom, it always crosses my mind that it might also be worthwhile to develop a "daisy" strain of whirligigs, having only one layer of petals, but multiple color combinations in the mix such as I saw in some of my flowers below:

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I never tire of the color combinations that appear!

JG

JG,

"...it would be nice to develop a large, multi-petaled, very toothy flower that would appear as if it had many more petals than it really did because of the toothiness..."

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why my interest in toothy zinnia petals persists. What we need now is a "super toothy" mutant. The more "toothies" we grow, the better our chances of finding one.

"...it might also be worthwhile to develop a "daisy" strain of whirligigs, having only one layer of petals, but multiple color combinations in the mix..."

I have to agree with that. The examples you just showed are most convincing. The single, or near single, flower form doesn't hide the two-color or three-color patterns, and shows them to the best effect.

I don't like a lot of yellow florets in the center, but maybe some scabiosa recombinations could replace those with something more ornamental. And I always want to re-design the petal form, into something a bit unusual. But a strain or strains of big multicolor daisy-like zinnias could be very successful.

I should cross my good Whirligig color patterns with various other zinnias, including those with unusual petals (like the Dinosaurs) and those with modified florets (like the scabious). I have some Whirligigs coming into bloom now, but so far nothing unusual.

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Hopefully I will eventually get some "needle petaled" or "pencil petaled" Whirligig specimens.

ZM

ZM,

Yes, I think repeated selection of toothy-flowered plants will hopefully lead to an exagerated toothy-flowered plant.
Maybe one of us will get lucky and have a mutation with heavily toothed flowers that just spontaneously arises! That is wishful thinking, probably.

You've got a good idea in trying to carry the whirligig pattern into more ornamental flowers. Sometimes I get that sort of result randomly, but not through a planned breeding program.

Well, then, take a look at a few of my July Bonnet F-2 individuals. First, the July Bonnet F1 parent, rather flat and saucer-like, looked like this in 2009:

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This was selfed, and now I have just about as wide a variety of zinnias among the F2s as I have in the whole garden! Included in the F2s are some of what I called "stacked" zinnias--with lots of petals and a deep bloom. These certainly aren't favorites of mine, but shown just to give you an idea of how recombinants can turn out.

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JG

JG,

The wide diversity in the F2s from July Bonnet surprised me. I guess they show that it was a rather complex hybrid, containing stripes and "stacked" flower forms.

I have a second "toothy" that bloomed today. I pollinated it with pollen from the first. I'll try to take some pictures tomorrow. More later.

ZM

JG,

This is a picture of the new "toothy", taken a few minutes ago.

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If you look closely, you will see that a small flower spider has found a practical use for one of the "teeth". It is hiding behind it. More later.

ZM

ZM,

The petals on your flowers are truly toothy. If your plants are like mine, the toothiness should carry well into the next generation. I wonder if it isn't a dominant trait? Your flowers are more extreme in that trait than mine. Will look forward to what the offspring look like!

Here are two more of my Extreme Roll offspring. These flowers are on the same plant.

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I am still busy collecting seed. I am going to have quite a lot! We are approaching drought conditions here. That is pretty obvious when even the zinnias are wilting! This dryness is causing the plants to be very slow in forming new flowers.

JG

JG,

I think it is possible that "toothiness" is a dominant trait. Let's hope that it is controlled by more than one gene, so that there can be different degrees of it, including the yet-to-be-seen "super toothiness".

Your Extreme Roll offspring are showing encouraging signs of genetic persistence. That looks like a strain is very possible. Perhaps next year we can trade some seeds. Apparently we each have some stuff the other one doesn't have, and deepening our gene pools could result in some new zinnia traits emerging for both of us.

Hi everyone,

This message thread is near the 100 mark, and understandably somewhat slow to load, so I am continuing it over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 15 for a "fresh" start.

I look forward to seeing you all over there.

ZM