Hi all,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 20, has become rather long and slow to load or read, so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. As always, you are invited to post your pictures, and I don't have any size recommendations for your pictures because the forum now automatically re-sizes larger pictures to 550 pixels wide. I took this picture yesterday of my main outdoor zinnia work area.

I am still planting new zinnia beds and will do that for another week or two. I will probably leave the low tunnel framework in place to give me the option of quickly covering the zinnias remaining in them for protection against an early killing frost in the Fall. Last Fall, an early frost robbed me of nearly a month of growing season.

I'll be planting another seedbed today, and the weather now is great for that.

ZM

"...I was surprised to see a scabious flower today with half of its guard petals tubular in form. Will know if that is possibly genetic or environmentally caused when other flowers on that plant bloom. "

That's an amazing picture. I suspect that it is genetic, and that other blooms on that plant will also have at least some tubular guard petals.

I think you definitely should give it breeder status and take extra good care of it, in order to get the most possible seeds from it. Some of its progeny might turn out to be "pure" tubular.

That encourages me to plant more scabious types in case I might find one with tubular guard petals. Congratulations JB, you did it again.

ZM

Your zinnia garden looks good! The tunnel framework you have is going to be very helpful in the fall. It looks also that you have the weeds well under control. Even with all the hay mulch, my garden looks somewhat jungle-like.

I will try to get some seeds from that scabious flower with tubes. I notice that all the tubes have stigmas. If I could get some tubular flowers even half as nice as yours, I would be very excited!

I don't see anything out of the ordinary today, except for the first flower of a few Zahara (Zinnia marylandica) plants that I started from seed. An apetalous male sterile, purely female flower! For the expense of Zahara seeds, I should get my money back, hmm...I wonder if they aren't doing some hybridization with those??

JG

I stand corrected on the type of zinnia the male sterile flower above was...it actually was an F1 of coral Magellan zinnias, very short like the Zahara plants and growing nearby! Got them from a seed exchange.....

Below is another scabious zinnia that isn't true to form, but has interesting stripes.

JG

ZM is much better suited to comment on your growing conditions, but my guess is that coir may be lacking nutrients that the zinnias require, and may be contributing to your problems there. Did you start any of your zinnias in potting soil? If so, those would probably do better than those in coir alone..unless the coir was supplemented with nutrients..

JG

" I am growing some of them in dead soil..."

What do you mean by the phrase "dead soil"?

"...and some in pots and potting soil!"

You didn't mention any fertilizer or soluble nutrients. That gives me more reason to believe that your zinnia bud problems are nutrient deficiencies.

Do post pictures of your zinnia blooms when you get them.

ZM

"Does anyone know if the Magellans can cross with normal-sized zinnias? If so, I could then breed a nice, compact strain."

Breeding a nice compact strain of zinnias is a great idea. Plant habit is a very important characteristic, and many people prefer the look of compact zinnias in their gardens and landscapes. And, yes, the Magelllans can cross with normal-sized zinnias, because they both are members of the same species, Z. violacea (elegans)

Besides Magellans, there are several other compact zinnias that you might want to experiment with. Dreamlands are similar to Magellans, but somewhat different. Swizzles are also compact and come in two spectacular bicolors, red tipped white and scarlet tipped yellow.

All of those candidates mentioned above are F1 hybrids, so you will get variable results from recombinations between the different genes of female and male parents in both the pollen cells and the egg cells that they produce. But don't let that stop you -- recombination is your friend when you are looking for something new in zinnias.

Sure, you will get some oddball culls, but they are removed easily enough, and worth it to get some exciting new non-culls that you will use as breeders for even more exciting crosses or recombinations.

There are at least a couple of non-F1 hybrid zinnia strains that you might want to consider crossing with the more compact strains. Whirligigs normally grow in the 17 to 20 inch heights, so they might be a candidate for crossing with shorter zinnias to get an intermediate compact form. Another possibility is the Burpee Burpeeanas, which are a large flowered zinnia that grows on a more bushy less tall plant that starts blooming at about 20 inches and reaches a height of about 24 inches. Burpeeanas could make some interesting hybrids with shorter zinnias, and add some flower size and flower form as well.

If you really want to knock the size of a taller strain down to a more compact form, cross it with the Thumbelinas. Their ultimate height is about 6 inches and they can begin blooming at an amazing 3 inches.

Slightly taller than the open pollinated Thumbelinas are the F1 hybrid Zinnitas. And the F1 hybrid Short Stuff has amazing 3 to 4-inch blooms on plants that are only 8 to 10 inches tall. A 4-inch bloom on an 8-inch plant is a pretty amazing ratio of bloom size to plant height. It would be great if some of our 2-foot to 3-foot zinnias could perform like that. Zinnia blooms over a foot across would be spectacular. But that's probably not going to happen any time soon.

Another candidate for the compact plant mix would be the Burpee White Wedding strain. It has 4 to 5 inch flowers on plants that are only 12 to 16 inches tall. Whites cross well with other colors. I have always been curious about the structure of white petals. Most of the zinnia colors are based on different colored dyes that the plant synthesizes in their petals, but as far as I know, there is no white dye. So the white must somehow be some kind of structural color. I dunno. But I have gotten some nice colors by crossing white zinnias with other colors. I think that a dye mixed with a white petal structure is somehow different from a petal with just some dye and regular petal cells. At least, that is my guess.

Anyhow, I think that your idea to breed a nice compact strain of zinnias is a very good one. And there are a lot of ways that you could go about it. There are so many kinds of zinnias that the number of possible crosses that you could make is a really big number.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

That scabious wannabe with striped petals is worth saving seeds from. Those stripes are nothing like the Peppermint or Candy Cane stripes, but are a limited repeatable pattern on the petal. I like that effect. That striped petal pattern gene is worthy of saving, because it could be the basis for a whole new strain of zinnias on larger, possibly double flowers in a range of colors. The Benary's Giants or California Giants might be a suitable target for a petal pattern like that. Or even some single zinnias with really big paddle-like petals. Your zinnia gene pool never ceases to amaze, JG.

ZM

Hi all,

This recombinant shows characteristics from both scabious and tubular ancestry, but it doesn't benefit particularly from either.

However, I have quite a few more recombinants budding out with similar ancestry, so this combination will have the opportunity to yield something better.

ZM

Hi all,

This recombinant may have scabious influence, although from its "crazy mixed up" look, it is kind of hard to tell what is going on genetically with it.

I'll probably save seeds from it out of curiosity, just to see what its progeny might look like. However, it doesn't meet any of my breeding goals in its present state. But at least a few of its seedlings might be an improvement.

ZM

We are getting rain now, the slow and penetrating kind that is best for the garden. With all the moisture, new flowers are coming out hourly.

I also see the scabious trait appearing in varying degrees, as in the next two flowers.

I like the flowers that tend to appear white in the center as they open.

I have a Extreme Roll recombinant, that obviously has Whirligig genes. It also has petals with varying degrees of
tube formation, some tubes very short, others longer, and with uneven edges.

By the looks of some of my flowers, I'm pretty sure I am seeing inbreeding depression among the Extreme Roll descendents (I'm glad I included several rows of Benary and Whirligig zinnias in my main garden). Anyway, below is an odd mutant whose petals are sealed at the top.

JG

"...do you know any short scabious strains?"

Actually, the link you provided lists their height as 8 to 12 inches, and that is shorter than any listing I have seen for scabiosa flowered zinnias. That is a good price per ounce, but actually I think that height listing is a mistake. Hazzards lists a height of 36 inches for Scabiosa Mix. Incidentally, Hazzard's carries Pulcino Mix, which is yet another compact zinnia at 14 inches.

Thompson & Morgan list Scabiosa Flowered Mixed at 24 to 30 inches, which is probably closer to correct. Zinnia height does vary with local conditions and climate. T&M also carries Pulcino. Parks lists Candy Mix at 30 inches.

But you can always make a zinnia shorter by crossing it with a shorter variety and, if that doesn't work as well as you wanted, grow F2 recombinants from the not-short-enough F1 hybrids. Some of those will likely be as short as your original shorter variety.

Be aware that none of the commercial scabiosa flowered strains have a high percentage of "on type" flowers. So expect to cull a lot of them. The picture at the link you provided is what your on-type specimens will look like. Most will be off-type singles or just semi-double small zinnias. I plant my commercial scabiosa flowered zinnias a little close together, knowing that I will thin them out a lot at bloom time. I do the same for my recombinants, as well.

I think you are wise to include the scabiosa flowered types in your breeding program, because they can give you some interesting variety. Besides having nice looking pollen florets, they have well-branched plants that are somewhat wind resistant. And one plant can put out a lot of flowers.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

JG,

That last flower is amazing. I have never seen anything like it. It has stigmas. I would label it and put some extreme roll pollen or some kind of pollen on them and grow some seeds from it. Also, I would be watching to see what kind of flowers appear on the side branches. Admitted those petals (I haven't thought of a good name for them yet) have limited ornamental appeal, but those genes might combine with some other genes to produce something really remarkable.

Your zinnia gene pool is really deep and full of surprises. I think you are right that that funny little zinnia came from inbreeding depression and uncovering long hidden recessives, but I think that recessive genes aren't necessarily bad. In fact, I think that recessive genes can be very worthwhile. And who knows what weird stuff is still hidden in the codes contained in those zinnia DNA spirals?

It's interesting that your extreme-roll whirligig recombinant has some tubular petals. They aren't bad ones, either. I am beginning to think that tubular genes are fairly common. It's just the all-tubular combination that is infrequent. This is another of my current tubular specimens.

I don't know if that bloom is trying to be single or not. Maybe those are emerging petals in the center. I do have a lot of single tubulars, and I guess I am going to keep them. This one is clearly double.

It doesn't have that tight "paintbrush" arrangement of the petals that many of my tubulars have. I am going to have to start culling tubulars, which is going to feel kind of weird. More later.

ZM

You rascal !!! Now everyone is going to want a lizard on their zinnias.

ZM

Lots of flowers coming out here..many more to come. there are several beds I have that are still too new to have any flower buds.

ZM, I agree. I think that the all-tubular flowers may definitely have a differnt type of gene expression than the flowers that show less than 100 % tubular flowers. The ones that I have don't have such well-defined tubes. Zinnias also respond to the environment in such strange ways, those less defined tubes may well be a response to some kind of mechanical barrier even when the flower is developing. What sort of form do you want with your tubular flowers?

Martha, you are going to get a bunch of flowers with the plants you showed that are blooming...they look like maybe Profusions. Are they growing with black-eyed Susans in that last picture?

Bob, I like the lizard you have on your flower...think of how he may protect the flower!

Below are several scabious flowers again. The first has a lot of curly petals in the center rather than disc florets.

The second is very inconsistent with the kind of petals it has in the middle as well.

The last is a prettier flower and one I wish I had more of at present!

JG

Hi JG,

I like those tightly curled petals in your first picture.

Your last flower is pretty. The center color harmonizes well with the petal color, and the petals have a nice clean look. Its petals are not tightly packed, like many commercial strains. I have similar flower forms in my current recombinants, like this one.

That flower form isn't like my aster flowered zinnias, but it is different from what is available in commercial zinnia seed packets. I like the petals to be loose and open and not tightly packed.

"What sort of form do you want with your tubular flowers?"

I want the tubes to be much more open at the ends, and much larger. And I think it would be good if they were "toothy" at the end. And larger, much larger. And I think it would be good if the tubes were "toothy" on the end. I like the look of Centaura Montana:

In the past I have had toothy zinnias that were a move in the direction of the Centauras.

Now I need to get the "toothies" combined with the tubulars. I also would like the tubes to flare more, somewhat like little morning glories. I will need to do a lot more recombination with the tubulars to get forms that I really like.

ZM

Martha

I think you've got your challenge set up for you in introducing the toothy trait to your tubular flowers! But if you can get something close to Centaurea, that would be remarkable! Zinnias have so many color combinations and patterns to offer, you could get wonderful flowers! I like the toothiness trait, too, and you have been so successful in bringing that out in zinnias. I believe the source of that trait may originate with the whirligigs...at least, that's where I see it in my garden, in a less pronounced form than yours.

I think I am going to see a lot of versions of the extreme roll trait this year, along with abbreviated petals, misshapen petals, and all the related expressions of that trait you might expect with inbreeding. I am hoping to be able to get a large flower with many needle-like petals, and in the past years, I have been able to get a few plants that have that type of flower, but at the largest, about 3 inches wide, and only in shades of purple.

I have more relaxed forms of the trait blooming now like these:

The flower with end-sealed petals (Cat Toes) now looks like this:

Short plants with this type of flower could be interesting. I have to say, I am anxious to see what the other flowers on that plant look like!

Goclon, if you look at Telescody's zinnias above, the flower in the upper right hand corner of the block of 6 has very obvious Y-shaped stigmas...on most of his photos they are obvious to see.

Martha, I like the black-eyed susans..the flowers are long-lasting and many creatures seem to like them..I'm judging that by the fact that I bought one small container of Rudbeckia one year, and within several years, they were popping up all over our yard. That was good ;-). I grow lots of natives, but you can't beat zinnias for attracting many pollinators!

Telescopy, your flowers might be similar in color, but look at all the ways they differ in form! I wouldn't be surprised to find that you started out with a hybrid, and since have been looking at how all the genes can shuffle around. If you introduced some whirligigs, some scabious, some cactus, and some Benary zinnias in your garden one year, let them cross freely and gather the seeds for next year, you would be astounded at all the combinations you would see!

JG

Martha

JG,

Good job of "minding the store" with your timely responses to Goclon, Martha, and Telescody. I can't improve on your messages to them.

I agree that the toothy trait most likely comes from Whirligig genes. This is one of my current Whirligigs that has a similar uproll comparable to the two specimens you just pictured. However, the petal backsides of yours are considerably whiter.

That Whirligig does have a slight hint of toothiness on its petal tips. But not enough to make it a toothy breeder.

Your "cat toes" mutant is begging to cross pollinate some other zinnias with that pollen presentation, and to be selfed on those stigmas. It is a whole new zinnia petal form, and despite its humble appearance, it might evolve into something amazing. I said it is a new form, but it could be just only new to us, and it might actually be a very old form, reappearing after a prehistoric time when that petal form was advantageous. Who knows how those cat toe genes might interact with other zinnia genes? Zinnias can be full of surprises, and your "cat toes" is a case in point.

ZM

What I am hoping for this year is a version of this zinnia which I have seen for the past four years, and especially, in a different color:

I see some prospective blooms in the garden, but I have to wait for them to fully mature! For example, there is a family of lavender zinnias here that typically start out as such:

but then open up to look fairly average and unrolled. I have a number of the red Benary zinnias that behave the same way!

I do like some of the partially unrolled zinnias, though.

The whirligig you showed suggest that the rolled zinnias originate with that varierty, but I don't think that is how my particular line started-- although since it has been here, I know there have been many opportunities to cross with that line.

I continue to see number of zinnias here that have several, but not all, tubular petals. Darn! ;-)

Have a happy 4th!

JG

I also hope the Monarch will survive the latest crisis. We have a number of common milkweed plants in our field, along with swamp milkweed and sandvine. I have some butterfly weed in my garden, then also include dill, fennel, pipevine, pawpaw, spicebush, sassafras,and rue to support some of the swallowtail butterflies' larvae. I like the zinnias, because the butterflies are not only attracted to them, but they also provide many photo ops for butterfly pictures.. Whatever butterflies I see in the garden, I then make sure we have a good supply of host plant on our property...so far, have photographed 25 species. The zinnias are extremely helpful as my Monarch attractant..that is where I tag them every year, with the best chances of that in September.

JG

JG,

I am glad you reposted that picture of your ultra rolled specimen. I agree, that the Whirligigs haven't shown me a hint of anything that spectacular. Your extreme rolls do seem to have unique genes, as if a new mutation occurred in your zinnia garden. In a range of colors, that strain of zinnias should be very successful as a commercial strain. I hope to see it on the cover of a seed catalog some day.

This tubular shows a small hint of toothiness on the ends of its petals.

However, I haven't made any direct crosses between my toothy specimens and my tubulars yet, so I can't expect any significant progress in that direction this year. Hopefully I will make such crosses this year.

This tubular recombinant shows Whirligig bicolor traits, which isn't surprising, because most of my zinnias now have some Whirligig ancestry. But it is the first tubular I have seen that has an obvious bicolor.

Sadly, the tubular petal form could be concealing all manner of bicolor, tricolor, and color patterns inside their tubes. That is why I would like to get them to open up more or flare out so that you could see inside the tubes. That is also why I am so interested in the backside color of petals. We have both seen good white color backsides, but I would like to expand that to a full color range. There are so many things to do with zinnia breeding.

ZM

Hi Goclon,

"How long does it take for zinnias to produce green seed ready for planting from the first flower?"

Three to four weeks. You can start looking at individual petals at about three weeks and you will find some seeds that are "fat enough" to pull and plant.

"...do you know what type of zinnia hummingbirds would prefer?"

Hummingbirds seem to go for any color of zinnia that has nectar bearing pollen florets. That includes the colored florets of the scabiosa flowered zinnias, which also contain nectar. Butterflies likewise go for any zinnia that has nectar, regardless of color or flowerform.

"Do you know where I can get Medusa-type zinnia seed?"

I am not familiar with that term applied to commercial zinnias. I did have a recombinant that had odd, very twisted petals that completely concealed the center of the zinnia, and I called it "Medusa" as my own name for it.

Maybe you are thinking of the similar cactus flowered zinnias that have down-rolled somewhat twisted petals. Please explain what you do mean by "Medusa-type zinnia seed".

ZM

The two tubular flowers you have shown are both nice, and at the opposite ends of the spectrum--one being more delicate in color and form,and the other being very bright and simpler in form. The lavender one does show how you could increase some volume to the flower by having toothy or feathered ends to the tubes. That seems to be a really good goal to reach. On the other hand,I love the color in the orange and red flower, and actually I think you have plenty of color there without the flared ends,although flared tubes would be desirable, too.

I have nothing so spectacular to show with my rolled flowers. Quite a few are showing up now, like the following--but I would like to see more layers of petals, and skinnier petals, too.

JG

JG,

Those look like pretty good extreme rolled blooms. The second picture seems very much on type, but it may be a bit too early to tell about the first and last ones. I have blooms from time to time that tease me that they are going to be extreme rolled when they are first blooming out, and then they uncurl their petals as they continue opening.

I have quite a few tubulars that have an undesirable tight flower form, with all of their petals tight together in an upright orientation. This one is an example of that.

I am keeping them, with the idea that crossing them with other zinnias and letting them recombine might "fix" the problem. At least they are consistent in producing tubular petals, even if they aren't arranged like I would like them to be. Those tight blooms remind me a bit of an old fashioned broom, or maybe a kind of artist's brush.

This bloom isn't spectacular, but it least the petals have some opening at the end and are arranged in a more "zinnia-like" fashion.

It has sort of a bicolor effect, with purplish veins on the outside of the tubes. I have had a few pastel colored "tubies", as well as reds, roses, oranges and yellows, but so far no white one. I am watching for that. I plan to cross some of my tubies with white zinnias when I get a few good white zinnias in bloom. I have a bed of white cactus flowered zinnias that should begin to bloom in two or three weeks.

I have quite a few zinnias with a tubular grandparent that were planted in-ground that haven't bloomed yet, so there is still a chance that I will get an extra good tubular specimen. But in the meantime, I will work with what I have. I am culling specimens that have a mix of tubular and non-tubular petals. There are quite a few of those. I filled a big black contractor trash bag with culls today.

ZM

"By "medusa-type", I meant a cactus zinnias w/ twisted petals, like the 'Fantasy' zinnia of bygone days"

Burpee carries Cactus Flowered Mix which they describe as an heirloom. It has pointed petals, but not twisted petals. Some of the Burpeeana Giants have slightly twisted petals, but they are described as quilled and ruffled and are not like the Fantasy Flowered zinnias that you mentioned. Apparently Burpee has discontinued their Burpee Giant Hybrids, some of which did have twisted petals.

You probably can find "fantasy flowered zinnias" in an Internet search. Botanical Interests has a packet that they describe as "Fantasy Flowered". Ironically, The first zinnia to win an AAS award was Fantasy Mix from Bodger in 1935. The true Fantasy zinnias have been unavailable for many decades. They had really twisted petals, somewhat like my "Medusa zinnia" that I pictured.

If you grow cactus flowered zinnias from several different sources, you probably will find a few that have the twisted petals that you want. Hazzard's Seeds has a good selection of zinnias. Notice that you can click on Next at the bottom of that page for even more zinnias. Hazzard's sells in quantity to commercial growers, but will sell to gardeners as well. I bought White Cactus zinnia from them, and have a bed of them that should come into bloom in two or three weeks. I plan to pick of few of the best whites and use them as breeders.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

I think you are doing well with the tubular line. You have a huge variery of colors, and there is some variation in form, too. You showed a pink flower in the last thread that was extremely full, with petals that weren't mostly upright. That was a beauty.

I wonder if you could cross one of the tubulars with a scabious flower. The central florets might be compatible with the tubular form, and the guard petals would influence some petals to be more horizontal.

As I said before, I am seeing plenty of strange flowers here. I think the "cat toes" flower might be the result of one too many extreme roll genes, or maybe just a different expression of them. I see variations, I think of the same form, as below:

These flowers are all about 1 inch in diameter, and are constricted at the ends of the petals. The first is the most obvious.

JG

"On the Thumblina packet, the picture shows a bunch of cactus and wavy-petaled plants. Are they actually like that?"

No, that is not a picture of Thumbelina zinnias. They look more like this:

Zinnias are not the best container grown plants because the larger ones usually require more root volume than is available in the container. However, dwarf zinnias are usually dwarf above ground and below ground, so they have smaller root systems that require less container volume.

Container gardening requires a more demanding skillset than in-ground gardening. They usually require a potting soil mix instead of garden soil. And the potting soil frequently lacks the soil bacteria necessary to convert urea to usable nitrate and ammonium ions, so many of the soluble nutrient mixes are not suited to container growing. It's OK to continue with your container zinnia project this year, but be aware that container gardening does have its pitfalls.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

"I wonder if you could cross one of the tubulars with a scabious flower. The central florets might be compatible with the tubular form, and the guard petals would influence some petals to be more horizontal."

I should do that cross directly, and so far I have never done that. I have crossed the original tubular with recombinants that had scabious ancestors and scabious traits, and recombinants with both tubular genes and scabious genes are possible in zinnias that are now growing and will come into bloom next month.

But I should plant some scabious zinnias to make the direct tubuar x scabious cross. Based on my experience with F1 crosses between tubulars and non-tubulars, I would expect the tubular x scabious F1s to be non-tubular, with modified tubular traits not showing up until the F2 progeny of the F1s.

There is a chance that recombinations of tubular and scabious traits could occur in my presently growing beds. I will watch for that.

ZM

I think a scabious x tubular cross could give you some really interesting results. Those central florets of the scabious zinnias might even add some toothiness to the tubes of the tubular zinnias.

I don't have many cactus types in my extreme roll recombinants, but I spotted this one today. It had white-backed petals, and just a hint of the roll in the petals, too.

I had the same misfortune of getting a package of mislabeled zinnias as Goclon did...I was expecting cactus type flowers and got instead, pepperstick-like flowers. But one of them had a full set of tubes, not so pronounced as yours.

JG

JG,

Congratulations! You now have full tubulars. You never cease to amaze me. What I thought might take you years took you only a few days. I guess tubies are not nearly as rare as I thought. I assume you will make full use of that pollen. Your red cactus with good white backsides is another breeder treasure.

This tubular has whitish backsides/outsides. They could be whiter, but at least they don't have purple veins.

I have a couple of other tubulars with light colored outsides. Apparently there are several genes involved with the nature of tubular petals. More later.

ZM

It so hot and humid here it is almost uncomfortable to spend more than a half an hour outside. Some notes on insects--There is an insect here that sometimes bores into the occasional plant, and makes the whole zinnia wilt-haven't seen the culprit, but I find the holes they have bored. This is happening to a very few of my plants, and so I hope it gets no worse! Also there is a bug of some sort that seems to be in its nymph state, is pure white, and makes a cottony white substance all over the stems. I find I can quickly brush all of this stuff off, so no real harm yet, but these creatures are doing some damage to our catalpa trees. I submitted a photo to bugguide, but no response yet. Early in the morning, I am discovering there are a lot of flies getting nectar from the plants, and I assume with their hairy legs, they are also acting as pollinators. I see a good number of bumble bees, too, but very few honeybees. Our own hive is not doing well. I expect that the queen has died as the bees are not expanding in number at all.

But on a more positive note, the flowers in general are doing great! There is nothing more exciting than going out in the morning and seeing what new flowers are there. Veggieswirl and Martha, know you can both identify with that now with your new gardens! Martha, your plants are loaded with branches...you are going to have a lot of flowers!

Goclon, thanks for the compliment on my first tubular this year. Although I have to admit, in reality, it is a small flower, probably not wider than an inch and a half! I hope I have the luck and skill that ZM has in getting a line going of these. It takes an awful lot of patience.

ZM, I really like the colors of the last tubular. Pretty pink with white backing. Are you finding that these flowers with very long tubes have stigmas inside? Are you mostly selfing, or crossing...guess you want to keep certain lines going. I'm finding that of the peppermint stick flowers I have blooming, about half of them have several or more tubular petals, so I'm guessing in that line, it is a genetic thing.
The place where I see the most white-backed flowers is in the whirligig mixes...if you find a solid brilliantly-red flower within those mixes, they quite frequently have white-backed petals. I'm finding with my whirligigs this year that quite a few more are "on type" than not. Often in the past, I would get some really unique flowers in those mixes that didn't have the typical whirligig patterns, but were interesting in other ways.

Here are a couple of flowers I saw today:

JG

Goclon, those flowers have come from a long line of zinnias that for most years, I have left to the insect pollinators, and possibly wind, to randomly cross. I've been growing just about all of the varieties of Zinnia elegans available for the last twenty years, or so. Every year, I will also buy new packs of zinnias and add them into my gardens. So I can't say where the wavy petals have come from...but my best guess is that the waviness has come with the influence of cactus flower genes mixing in with the other strains over time. The "Extreme Roll" trait that I have is either a new mutation or a trait that has been uncovered from the inbreeding that has occurred in the population of plants here. I don't have wavy leaves with those plants with wavy petals, but I do have a plant now with wavy leaves that has a quite ordinary flower.

Looking forward to seeing what everybody grows this year!

JG

"Are you finding that these flowers with very long tubes have stigmas inside?"

I have dissected quite a few long-tubed petals, and I have always found a stigma inside. I sampled four petals from the pink-and-white tubular above, and all four had stigmas. Interestingly, one of those had apparently been fertilized, because it was shriveled and darkened. The mystery of how some tubulars can get a good yield of petal seeds without any hand pollination remains. I planted two rows of "self fertilized" petal seeds from a tubular breeder, in case the fertile petal seed ability is inherited. They will probably be blooming in about a month.

" Are you mostly selfing, or crossing...guess you want to keep certain lines going."

I am doing some of each. Many tubulars put out a lot of pollen florets, so those provide a good supply of selfed seeds. I continue to cross tubular pollen onto likely non-tubular breeders in an effort to get significant modifications to the tubular flower form in subsequent F2 recombinations.

The flower form in the third picture of your last series is significant. I sometimes think of the up-curled zinnia petals as "tulip flowered". In any case, that is a distinctly different zinnia flower form, and could be the basis for a new strain of zinnias with that flower form. I had a similar yellow one a few years ago that reminded me of a dandelion. A strain of zinnias with up-curled petals might be nice.

ZM

Hi Veggie,

"Caterpillars are eating some of my breeders, they are actually getting into the flowers!"

I removed a caterpillar from the center of one of my zinnia blooms yesterday. It was fairly big, nearly "full grown", and it had eaten out most of the immature seeds in the center of the bloom. Fortunately that flower was not a breeder. In fact, I think I culled that plant later yesterday. Needless to say, I killed the caterpillar. Don't want it turning into a moth and laying eggs. I have a bug zapper in operation near my tomatoes to kill the hawk moths that lay eggs for tomato hornworms. I may relocate the bug zapper out to my zinnia patch to reduce the population of egg-laying moths to control the caterpillar problem.

"...and this time another flower from a different plant is about to open up so I can cross breed! Do you guys use little paint brushes?? That's what I'm planning on using."

An artist's brush can be used to easily cross-pollinate zinnias. First, you "load" the brush with some pollen spilling out of a floret.

Then you touch the tip of the brush to the stigmas of the female bloom. You can touch several stigmas before you need to reload your brush.

If you are going to switch pollen sources to a different male bloom, just rub the remaining pollen off anywhere (I use the back of my hand) before loading the new pollen on the brush. Or you could just skip that and allow a little pollen mixture.

I prefer the brush method for my indoor zinnias, where I don't have any wind or bees to disturb my pollen. For outdoors, where wind and bees and even hummingbirds are helping you with your cross pollination, I usually use a pair of forceps (Kelly forceps or a similar design) to remove a pollen floret and use it as a brush to apply pollen to the selected female stigmas.

The pollen donor in that picture was one of my "dinosaur" zinnias, rather crude in flower form, but over 7 inches across. I hope eventually to get zinnias in the 8-inch size range and possibly above. I would like to give giant dahlias some competition. But I digress. You hold the floret in the forceps and wipe it gently on the target stigmas.

You can also use tweezers instead of forceps. I have a pair of tweezers with sharp points that I like to use, because they make it possible for me to extract the anthers from the floret, and rub the anthers on the stigmas, to make maximum use of the pollen available in a floret. But that is kind of an advanced technique that you needn't bother with until you are ready to experiment. There are many ways of cross-pollinating zinnias and, as you get more experience, you will develop your favorite techniques.

"Some Januarys and Februarys it gets down to the 40s and high 30s, but I should start planting about mid February. If I plant too soon, the little coir pots or peat pots freeze."

If you could expand your operation to open ground, you could greatly increase the number of zinnia plants you work with. That, coupled with your multi-generation growing season, could make you a very powerful zinnia breeder. In zinnia breeding, the more plants you can grow (within limits), the better your chances are of getting unique and unusual specimens.

ZM

It is a joy to go out into the garden now..the flowers are in full bloom, and quickly, are so far along that the goldfinches are hovering nearby, waiting for seeds to ripen. That gives me a heads-up to check on the flowers I like for seeds. Amazing how quickly things move along this time of year! ZM, I'm sure you're already collecting seeds--maybe even have some of summer generation 2 starting up.

I have seen a number of the tulip-shaped flowers here over the years. It probably would be a good idea to save some of the nicer ones, and see how they may grow in future years. I have this one now among the extreme roll recombinants that is hardly desirable:

A number of my rolled flowers are taking awhile to fully open, but here is one, still opening, that is white with purple/pink-backed petals:

Any of the readers here who purchase a pack of seeds and spend close to $2.00 or more and find that it is misrepresented by pictures or labelling should contact that company and make a complaint! These folks are charging a lot for seeds that cost pennies to produce! Those gardeners (often like myself!) who get a mislabelled seed exchange packet or a bargain pack for 10 cents should let it go....;-)..

JG

JG,

That last zinnia should be on the cover of a seed catalog! I don't have anything in my tubulars to compete with the sheer unique beauty of your extreme rolled zinnias, and that last white specimen shows the benefits of that flower form. I also really like those separated petals that let you "see through" the bloom.

One of the faults of classic zinnias is their tight petal placement with petals layered like shingles, and no "air" between them. So I appreciate zinnias that avoid that fault. I hope you can get a strain of extreme rolled zinnias. They have great potential.

Some of my tubulars approach the tulip flower form:

Not particularly decorative, but they are a different form of zinnia flower. More later.

ZM

Hi all,

I personally do not prefer single zinnias, but I think single zinnias can look great in the landscape. So I am somewhat ambivalent about a number of single tubulars that I have, like this one:

For the time being I am keeping them, although I do not plan to select out a strain of single tubulars. I am keeping them more as an intermediate step to something hopefully different and better. The single tubulars usually do a good job of developing a flare-out at the end of the petals. More later.

ZM

I would definitely hang onto all the seeds of the tubular flowers you have! You have a really unusual form there, and have been successful in getting a number of different types of it. That last color is great. Now it seems you have a captured gene pool of that trait...you just have to work at what goal you have in mind!

I kind of think the same with the rolled flowers. I don't have the control over them that you do the tubular flowers, but I think I am closing in on the genes that cause it. I am getting about 30% inherited traits now in offspring from those that had the phenotype last year, but not all with the same extreme-nous of roll.

I am keeping the flower below, not because it is what I ultimately want, but it does have some bright colors!

I am seeing lots of bumblebees out in the garden, and also saw this hummingbird clearwing (sphinx) moth today--neat little creature..looks more like a bird than a moth!

.

JG

One more thing. If you use a tubular female ray as a female parent (obviously), it will carry on the trait of tubular rays....it would be nice if there was some cue that would tell you if a disc (male) parent carried that trait.

JG

JG,

Thirty percent is not bad. I kind of wish I was your next-door neighbor, because I would volunteer to extensively self-pollinate and inter-pollinate your uprolled specimens. I would code and tag each uprolled bloom.

And, with respect to that last white-with-a-red-back uproll: it's not putting out pollen, so I would powder each one of those stigmas with either choice uproll pollen from other plants, or even cross pollinate it with select non-uprolled specimens with other good characteristics, like larger flower size. The extreme uproll phenotype may be recessive, so the cross-pollinated seeds from that white-red uproll would likely produce non-uproll F1 progeny. But I would value them as F1s with hidden desirable recessive uproll genes, and self or inter-cross them to produce a variety of F2s, and that uproll phenotype would reappear in a significant fraction of them.

I think we both are working with some desirable recessive genes that need to be recombined to become even better, so those recessives need to go "underground" for a generation, to create the opportunity for them to reappear in a modified form in an "F2" generation.

"If you use a tubular female ray as a female parent (obviously), it will carry on the trait of tubular rays....it would be nice if there was some cue that would tell you if a disc (male) parent carried that trait."

I think it is a good working hypothesis to assume that the pollen from your peppermint tubular contains tubular genes. All of the normal "fuzzy yellow starfish" disk florets look pretty much alike, so a visible cue is not apparent, but I think we can assume that the ones in the middle of your peppermint tubular are loaded with tubular genes.

If you split your tubular petals a little to expose their stigmas, and apply pollen from the florets of the same flower or another flower on the same plant, you can expect petal seeds with near 100% tubular traits.

If you save the floret seeds from the tubular flower, you can also expect near 100% tubular traits.

If you use your tubular pollen on a non-tubular female, or non-tubular male pollen on the stigmas of your tubular bloom, you can expect "F1 hybrids" with non-tubular phenotypes, but tubular genotypes that will yield a "significant" fraction or recombined tubular traits in the F2 generation. Those recombined tubular traits will very likely exhibit some new tubular phenotypes. That is what went on in my zinnia patch the last two years, and a good working hypothesis is that the same scenario can play out in your zinnia garden as well.

You are in the unique position of being able to cross tubular genes with uproll genes, and the results of doing that could be unprecedented in zinniadom.

Each year I dabble in this zinnia hobby, it becomes more interesting and challenging and rewarding for me. As far as I know, your zinnia gene pool is more diverse and deeper and older than anyone's, so incredible results in your zinnia patch are almost a daily event.

The only reason that I, as a relative newcomer to zinnia breeding, have gotten as far as I have is that I have done a lot of hand pollination of zinnias. My original tubular "mutant" produced a lot of pollen over a period of months from dozens of blooms, and I used pretty much all of it, the majority of it on other selected breeder zinnias. Actually, all of those zinnias in that zinnia patch pictured at the beginning of Part 18 of this series were F1 hybrids between the original tubular mutant and selected breeders.

When I planted that patch I fully expected that at least some tubular phenotype hybrids would appear, and for a time I thought that my "grand tubular experiment" had failed. Then it dawned on me that if the tubular trait were recessive, that it was still hiding in great numbers there in that patch, and that I had only to save seeds from those blooms and grow an F2 generation to get reemergence of the tubular phenotype in a variety of expressions. Those F2's are blooming and coming into bloom now.

You can improve on that scenario by including your extreme uproll genes in the mix.

Recently I have harvested several tubular seedheads, and so far found negligible viable seeds on the tubes. I will now return to tubular petal splitting to make use of the potential embryos attached to the tubes. In the meantime, tubular floret seeds will insure the propagation of the tubular form, but I still have some tubular blooms that aren't producing pollen, like this one.

Petal splitting is messy and tedious, but I did quite a bit of it with my original tubular, and got a good yield of viable petal seeds in addition to the natural production of floret seeds. I really like the full tubular heads, so I will continue petal splitting to enable pollen application to the hidden stigmas. Maybe someday I will get good at it.

ZM

"That tubular is magnificent!"

It thanks you for the compliment. Unfortunately, it won't be looking so good after I split its petals to access its stigmas for pollination.

"...the Giants sprouted in 3 days. We had a heat wave- the heat index was 104 F. Is that why they sprouted so fast? "

Yes, zinnias come up faster in higher temperatures. It wasn't so much the heat index as it was the actual temperature of the zinnia seed itself and, of course, moisture.

Zinnias have been known to germinate in just one day. I have had two-day germination on a number of occasions. I like it that zinnias are fast germinators and fast growers. Keep us informed about your zinnia activities. And post pictures when you can.

ZM

"I start in coir, than move to open ground."

You can save a lot of money on coir by planting your zinnia seeds directly in open ground and sprinkling the seed bed until they emerge.

"I am hoping to breed bonsai miniature zinnias"

That is very doable. Include more Thumbelinas in your breeding program. They start flowering at about 3 inches and their plant becomes a mound about 6 inches high.

"Are the petal seeds more likely to have the interesting crosses?"

The petal seeds are almost always the only ones that can be crossed, because the petals have the stigmas, which are the female part that accepts the pollen from the chosen male pollen donor plant. The floret seeds are almost always selfed by internal transfer of pollen from an anther bundle concealed in the tube of the "fuzzy yellow starfish" floret. The florets also have a stigma, but as it emerges it serves to push pollen from the internal anther bundle out into the open and almost always becomes fertilized by that same pollen in the process.

"I will post pictures, but only have one thumblina and another kind, maybe cut and come again but not sure."

Use that Thumbelina as much as you can, because it is all that you have right now that would contribute to a small bonsai miniature strain.

With your climate, you could probably plant some more zinnias now, and possibly for the next few weeks as well, with the expectancy of being able to cross pollinate and save seeds from them. If you do plant some more zinnias soon, pick some of the dwarf varieties like Magellan and Dreamland and Zinnita and Short Stuff. And more Thumbelinas. Crossing Thumbelinas with tall zinnias usually creates dwarf hybrids, but you have only one Thumbelina to work with right now. Maybe it will produce a lot of pollen. If so, use it.

ZM

That magenta zinnia is gorgeous! That type of bloom has to be one of the goals you are striving for in the tubulars.
The color is very nice, too. Well, you have the photo of it, and for now that is enough as you continue on to apply pollen to it. Does that plant have many buds? I guess you will try to make a perennial of that one!

I am planning to cross-pollinate that little yellow tubular flower as much as possible...but there are very few stigmas that have not yet been pollinated. I expect that some self-pollination went on before I discovered it..so I am anxiously waiting for more flowers from that plant. Also I am using some of that pollen and applying it to the extreme rolls. The little pink semi-tubular scabious flower that I had produced a number of seeds which I have already harvested. I am cross-pollinating the extreme rolls as much as I can. I would really like to get away from that prevalent purple color, so as new flowers come out, I will cross-pollinate with flowers of another color and cross the offspring of those in the future. I know if you were a next door neighbor, you would be a great source of advice....and maybe a pollinator, too, LOL....it would be nice to have that zinnia patch of yours next door, too.....it would be interesting to see what all you are growing there ;-).

Here are some of the flowers today:

This one is a relaxed version of the white flower I showed earlier, and from a different plant.

JG

Have you seen the Zinnia haageana flowers? You might enjoy working with those, too. They tend to be shorter, with some very interesting patterns...here is a shot of some of them that I picked from my garden today, in a miniature vase:

These are called 'Persian Carpet.'

JG

JG,

Your extreme rolls are all kinds of breath-taking. That first one is my favorite, because its petals are so slim and you can "see through" the bloom.

Maybe Persian Carpet genes explain your unique extreme roll phenotype. Incidentally, Veggie mentioned that she has Jazzy, which is an improved form of Persian Carpet. Persian Carpet is now in the category of "heirloom", which means the seed growers aren't so careful in roguing them. Aztec Sunset is a dwarf form of Persian Carpet. This is one of my indoor Aztec Sunsets from a few years ago.

I was going to try to cross it with my regular zinnias, but never got the pollen to take, either way. There is a big difference between the size of the florets and the stigmas between the two species. And possibly in the pollen grains, as well. Next year I plan to get some kind of microscope to support my gardening studies. Hopefully one that I can take pictures through. More later.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

It's not your screen. The picture does have a bluish cast (the pot and the label in it were white plastic) because the illumination was from cool white (6500K) fluorescent lights. The petals were tipped lemon yellow, which is a rather cool yellow and the bluish light made them look greenish.

There are several green petaled strains of Z. elegans, and the greens are a bit different from one strain to another. I haven't grown Benary's Giant Lime, so I can't comment on its color. I have grown the heirloom zinnia Envy, and it is a little too green for my taste. I have also grown the Tequila Lime and so far it is my favorite green.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Veggieswirl, please do post some pictures of your 'Jazzy' zinnias. I would love to see how they are different than the 'Persian Carpets.' Somehow I missed them in the catalog this year. You've got an enviable situation with your long growing season!

Love looking at everyone's photos!

ZM, I don't think the rolled trait could come from the Zinnia haageanas. I've never seen anything among them for petal shape other than the flat, slightly curved look. They are fascinating because of all the patterns the different plants show in their flowers. And also, the very dark colors and color contrasts they have that other zinnias don't.

One thing that my rolled flowers seem to have in common are the purple-backed petals...sometimes I wonder if that trait isn't linked to rolled petals.

JG

JG,

" I don't think the rolled trait could come from the Zinnia haageanas. I've never seen anything among them for petal shape other than the flat, slightly curved look."

I have to agree, I have never seen anything like your rolled petals in the Haageanas. I haven't seen anything like your extreme rolls anywhere. Some Whirligigs have rolled petals, but nothing extreme. So the origin of the extreme rolls will remain a mystery, at least for the time being.

Your white extreme rolled specimen is splendid. I have been hoping l would get a white tubular. So far no pure white, but I do have some light colored ones, like this one.

I have some successive plantings that haven't bloomed yet, so I still have hope for a white tubular this year. More later.

ZM

"If you introduced some whirligigs, some scabious, some cactus, and some Benary zinnias in your garden one year, let them cross freely and gather the seeds for next year, you would be astounded at all the combinations you would see! "
That is precisely what I did, last year. Seems that my local pollinators consciously avoided any of the flowers that I thought were interesting, and much prefer the plain pink ones. Kinda humorous when you think about it. I started a few years ago with only a single purple zinnia and far more yellow, orange, red, and ended up with entirely pink now. That's how it goes sometimes.

ZM, the light-colored tubular flower is nice, and even shows some toothiness in the petals. It looks like it is going to be a full one, too, when it has finally opened up. It will be pretty! You must have been doing a lot of cross-pollination to get all the colors you have in the tubulars. What was the color of your original tubular flower?

Veggie, save your seeds this year. You will have lots of recombinants from this year's garden. Even if you move to a place where you don't have room for a garden, you can continue your hobby at a student or community garden. That's what I did when I had no gardening space where I lived.

Telescody, I remember that I grew flowers several years in a row without adding new commercial seeds to my mix, and I got predominately purple. I've noticed through the years that the biggest and most seeds come from the purple zinnias, so I can't help but wonder if certain pollinator populations prefer certain colors of flowers. Maybe the name Zinnia violacea that's used in place of Zinnia elegans sometimes has some significance. Does your pink flower have patches of white in it? What else do you have there?

I don't have any rolled flowers to show that look different than ones I've shown before, but I will mention here that some are going to be very full! Here are pictures of my two biggest zinnia patches this year. The first one is all from seeds I saved from previous seasons except for maybe 1/5 of the whole patch, and the second photo are flowers all grown from commercial seeds.

JG

JG,

" What was the color of your original tubular flower?"

My original tubular was a nice pure red. But I crossed it with many different zinnias, including some that had white parents. I just haven't gotten a pure white tubular yet, but I think that recombinations in zinnias that are coming along to bloom later this month or next could still produce a pure white tubular this year.

"...the light-colored tubular flower is nice, and even shows some toothiness in the petals."

Yes, there are toothies in the tubular mix, and I took this picture today of a tubular with definite toothy traits. I am quite pleased with this specimen, and it is a priority breeder.

I hope to go further in this direction, with even more teeth and longer teeth in the tubular flared petal end. I also want longer petal tubes.

I haven't made any direct crosses between my toothy specimens and my tubulars yet, so I am currently depending on recombinations from parents that had toothy heritage. I hope to make some direct crosses between toothies and tubulars this year. I think that zinnias can "do" a flower form like the Centaurea montana that I pictured several messages above. I won't be too surprised if this quest also yields some other interesting zinnia flower forms. More later.

ZM

"How much time, in a matter of weeks, passes between blooming and collecting the seed?"

If you use Jackie's technique of saving green seeds, about three weeks. If you use the "conventional" method of waiting for the zinnia seedheads to turn brown, five weeks or so. Jackie's method is far and away the best way, because it helps avoid seed-stealing birds and seed damage by a wet rainy spell, which can cause zinnia seeds to germinate in the seedheads.

When you are shucking the seeds from a brown seedhead and you find brown seeds with little brown roots sticking out, you can be sure that those seeds were good at one time, but that now they are dead.

ZM

Hi Veggie,

"Okay link me to Jackie's technique! I'm eager to plant generation 2!"

OK, if you are eager to plant the next generation as soon as possible, you will be using something a bit more complicated. Jackie's technique applies to saving green seeds and drying them for storage, as if they were regular brown mature seeds.

If you pick a zinnia's green seeds and plant them immediately, they are slow to come up (two or three weeks) because their green seed coat is still alive and impervious to water. It takes quite a while for the seed coat to die and become pervious to water. So you need to open the green seed coat in some way so that water can quickly get to the embryo and stimulate its prompt germination.

First, you will need to learn to distinguish the difference between a viable green seed that contains a living embryo, and one that does not contain a living embryo, to avoid wasting time working on an empty green seed. This picture shows the difference. Notice that the petals are still alive and have color.

Basically, a viable green seed is "fat" and "heavy", because an embryo has volume and mass. You will need something like an X-Acto knife or a scalpel to "operate" on the green seed to breach its seed coat in some way, to allow water to get to the embryo. A few ways are shown in this picture.

There is a learning curve, but with a little practice this will go quite easily. You plant the breached green seed about a quarter inch deep, just like you would a regular zinnia seed. Keep the seed bed moist and the seedlings should emerge in two or three days.

You may noticed that one of the embryos in that last picture was "nearly naked". Actually, it is not too difficult to remove the embryos from the seedcoats and plant embryos instead of seeds. This picture shows a group of green seeds selected for embryo extraction.

And this picture shows the embryos extracted from the green seed coats, ready for immediate planting.

The embryos are the white things. The removed seed coats are green and black. I have planted as many as two trays of embryos at a time. You treat the embryos the same as if they were seeds, except you are a little more gentle with them. You don't want to knock off that little pointed root tip.

I usually add a little Physan 20 to the water that I water the embryos with, to kill any bacteria that might want to attack them. I don't know that that is necessary. I just do it because I usually have some Physan 20 handy. Physan 20 is necessary for rooting zinnia cuttings, to keep them from rotting.

ZM

Veggie, your technique should work fine as long as the flowerhead is mature and has those fat green seeds in it that ZM described. If it hadn't been around long before you cut it off, it may be that the seeds weren't ready yet, or, only the seeds closest to the base of the bloom were mature. Interested to see how your method works! I think that butterfly you saw (really pretty!) may be a Gulf Fritillary.

ZM, your toothy flower is nice! You are quickly making progress with your line. That one looks like it has some scabious zinnia in it.

Well, I don't have anything so unique to show ;-(, just another Extreme Roll, and purple, of course.

JG

Hi all,

I did do some direct tubular-on-toothy pollination on this toothy specimen today.

This is another of my current tubular blooms. It, and some others like it, remind me of strawberries.

And this is another of my light colored tubular blooms.

It was very hot here today, and we seriously need some rain. The farmers harvested the wheat in the surrounding fields today, and wheat chaff was flying in the air.

When I was getting tubular pollen today I noticed a number of very small black ants in some of the tubular flower heads. I think they must be getting some of the zinnia nectar. I don't think they are aphid herders, because I didn't see any aphids. I did find one of those ants inside a floret that I was gathering.

Previously I had seen one of those small black ants entering and emerging from one of the tubular petals. I am beginning to wonder if those small black ants could be accidentally pollinating some of the enclosed tubular petal stigmas. More later.

ZM

Is that last zinnia a bit greenish, or is that just the lighting? I have been meaning to grow and cross-pollinate some green zinnias, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

ZM

Since you planted some Envy, I think we can assume it is Envy. Now the question is, what will you get if you cross that greenish zinnia with other colors?

ZM

We've had some extremely hot, high humidity weather here that has made it very hard to get out in the garden for more than 1/2 hour at a time. Yesterday, though, we were lucky to get 3/4 inch of rain which helped immensely. I was afraid that we were heading for a summer drought.

ZM, that very toothy flower you have will definitely be a good parent along with your tubular flowers. You are pretty bold in making outcrosses. I should follow your example and be a little more risky with my crosses. I am always thinking that I should be very careful in retaining the extreme roll line so I do a lot of selfing. I think this year though, I have to work in more colors. For the most part, the really colorful flowers I get with the roll have been done by insects. This year I have a lot of the rolled flowers so I will be a little more experimental with the crosses. I have a good number of plants with the following phenotype:

I wish these plants would produce more pollen, but I will be happy to try and self a few plants while the rest I will outcross.

Off-type recombinants often look like the following:

For once, I got a white one:

Some of the seed packs this year for cactus flowers produced the following, for example:

Veggie, can't wait to see what your crosses produce! Those flowers you have now are just beginning to open. Wait until they are fully mature! The green zinnias are always fun to see. I think they are close relatives to the Benary zinnias as they show a lot of rolling in their petals. Some breeders have crossed green and red zinnias to get 'Queen Red Lime' hybrid zinnias-- the possibililities of those kinds of crosses are interesting!

Your butterfly reminded me a little of several fritillaries I have seen this summer here in Indiana, but it wasn't the same--so when I looked under fritillaries in my butterfly book, there it was!

JG

Veggie,

" Also, I think the petals are kind of rolled on that one as well!"

Those petals do have some uproll. However, I have been trying to match Jackie's extreme uproll, with no success. It is not at all uncommon for a zinnia to show you what looks like a lot of uproll when the bloom is first opening, like this one, for instance.

In just two days those petals have become very ordinary, and that specimen is scheduled for being culled. But I think you can get some unusual results by crossing your green zinnia with other colors. I have got to grow some greens and cross them.

ZM

That first picture is the return of the hyper extreme uproll !!! That thing is more than spectacular. It could be the predecessor of a future successful new commercial zinnia strain. That thing would be so amazing in a full range of colors.

By all means get a viable seed at the end of each of those petals, by selfing or crossing in other less uprolled colors, or even by crossing in different colors of large flowered zinnias. And use every grain of its pollen somewhere.

My experience with crossing the tubulars and getting a whole generation of non-tubular F1s, followed by an F2 generation in which the tubulars popped back in many different ways, could very well apply to your hyper uprolls. Just get those things labelled and "pregnant". I get so excited every time I see one of your pictures of them.

ZM

"You schedule your cullings?"

Not formally, but I don't always pull a cull immediately. Sometimes I want to see it develop more. And I usually notice some zinnias that have developed enough to qualify for culling early in the morning, but don't pull them then because they are still wet from rain or dew or sprinkling.

I cull later in the day when the zinnias have dried out. I don't like to handle wet zinnias, because it could spread disease. And pulling wet zinnias is kind of messy. I filled a black contractor bag with culls today. You are right, it is about time to start a new thread.

ZM

ZM, nice explanation about the seeds. That's a good solid technique. I have experimented with germinating embryos as well and can confirm that they do behave like you've described, coming up much sooner because of the seed husk. I'm more of an indoor growing person myself, and I'm going to grow zinnias this winter. I may experiment with some odd techniques to see what could happen, like intentionally bending the stems and shaping the plant, cutting liberally and watching what comes of it. I will keep everyone updated for sure.
Here's a "Common Buckeye" butterfly sipping some nectar on this hot day:

Anyways... pink through pink.... I was hoping this zinnia would be taller but I probably crowded too much..

and of course a benary's giant

you folks inspire. thanks for looking..

I agree with Veggie that it is about time to open a new part to this series of message threads, so see you all over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 22.

ZM