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zen_man

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 26

zen_man
9 years ago

Hello everyone,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 25, has become rather long and slow to load or read, so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. As always, if you have any related pictures, you are invited to post them.

Most of my zinnias have not bloomed out yet, with the exception of my patch of Burpeeana Giants, which have their first blooms and are ready for culling. Among those of my own breeding, I am still getting a number of "tubular" petaled recombinants, like this one.

{{gwi:13521}} I am also getting the more "exotic" star-tipped tubular recombinants. The objective of my exotic zinnia breeding is to get each petal to look like a flower in itself. I have made some progress in that direction, like with this current recombinant.

{{gwi:13522}} As you all know, botanically, zinnias are composites and each petal is botanically a flower, because it is a plant part that can produce a seed. So I figure that if the petals are going to be flowers botanically, I would enjoy making them look more like flowers.

I look forward to more posts from all of you. My favorite part of growing zinnias is the suspense of watching new blooms appear. They remind me a bit of Forest Gump, and him referring to life as like a box of chocolates, that you never know what you are going to get.

ZM

Comments (125)

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "...you really are able to harvest from seed sown now? When is your last frost?"

    I think you meant when is my first frost. Last year we got a slight "nip" of frost early in October, I think it was about the 10th. I was already saving green seeds then, but only the leaf tips and petal tips were affected.

    Somewhere about October 20th we got a frost that did a lot of damage. I would call it a killing frost because no useful growth occurred after that, although I harvested both brown head and green seeds after that date that germinated successfully.

    Using the climate data for Ottawa, Kansas, there is a 10% chance of 32 degrees as early as Sep 30, 50% chance of 32 degrees as early as Oct 17, and 90% chance as early as Nov 3.

    There is a 10% chance of 28 degrees as early as Oct 13, 50% chance of 28 degrees as early as Oct 31, and 90% chance of 28 degrees as early as Nov 18.

    There is a 10% chance of 24 degrees as early as Oct 25, 50% chance of 24 degrees as early as Nov 12, and 90% chance of 24 degrees as early as Dec 3.

    As with all weather matters, it's a gamble, but it helps to know the odds. I think the 28 degrees level is a pretty good criterion and the 50% probability is an "even odds" thing, which means that I should plan on having my green seeds indoors by Oct 31, or using the 10% figure as a "safe" criterion, I should expect to continue harvesting seeds as late as Oct 13.

    Zinnias bloom in 6 to 8 weeks, and green seeds are ready in 3 weeks from pollination. Using the 8 weeks as conservative, green seeds take 11 weeks or more from the planting date. A usable harvest of green seeds could be expected in 12 weeks from the planting date. That's about 3 months.

    Three months from tomorrow would be about October 23rd. And the probability mumbo jumbo in the previous paragraph said "... which means that I should plan on having my green seeds indoors by Oct 31." So I think it is worth a gamble to plant zinnia seeds as late as the last day of this month. It's a gamble. The feasibility of gathering green seeds is a big plus factor in this. And I have Jackie R to thank for that technique.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM -
    There was a time when I kept fairly good records of temps and freeze times (you're right, of course - I meant 1st frost), but haven't done it for awhile. And it doesn't matter as much now, since the weather has been changing in the last 10 years and is much more unpredictable (in the long term) from my point of view. Meaning, the weather folks are extremely good about predicting what's coming in the next few days and even a week, but forget about saying what the likelihood of frost dates will be months from now. Still the odds as quoted for your area probably covers it as well as can be expected. Up (or lower - depending on how you look at it) those odds somewhat for us. If we don't see a killing frost by the end of September, I'm surprised.

    So - I guess I'm not planting any green seeds this year, even though it would be fun to see what I might get with the F1s. Question: since I'm not going to do that, is there any need to try to harvest green seed right away? Could I simply put a net bag over the blooms that are probably going to be ripe by next week, and let them dry naturally? Or can I, in a couple of weeks, cut the whole head off and bring it in to finish drying safely inside? Less chance of birds, mold, disease?
    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "And it doesn't matter as much now, since the weather has been changing in the last 10 years and is much more unpredictable (in the long term) from my point of view."

    Yes, climate change does make old climate data less relevant, and my USDA zone may have changed from 5b to 6a. I think the climate data probabilities haven't changed massively -- they may have shifted things by a few days. I still use the probabilities as a guideline, and I may "get away with" planting zinnias on July 31st, or I may not. I recognize it is a gamble, and the climate data encourages me that it might be a gamble worth taking. So I am taking it.

    "Question: since I'm not going to do that, is there any need to try to harvest green seed right away? Could I simply put a net bag over the blooms that are probably going to be ripe by next week, and let them dry naturally?"

    Yes, you could just net the blooms you intend to save seeds from, and that should protect your seeds from the finches and other birds. I have never collected green seeds by saving a green flowerhead, and there might be problems with doing that. I have always collected green seeds one at a time as they mature. The seeds in a larger flower head mature over a period of maybe two weeks, with the first ones usually coming from the bottom of the flower. But position in the flowerhead is only a guideline -- the time of pollen fertilization is more the "start date" for the seed.

    Since you aren't in a hurry to plant your seeds, you could just net the blooms and let them mature to brown heads the "old fashioned" way. More later. I just opened up furrows in a new seed bed, and they are calling for seeds. And the temps are supposed to be about 10 degrees cooler (less hot) today.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - 10 degrees cooler when you said yesterday was 100, doesn't sound like much of an improvement to me - LOL! But I suppose it's relative to what you're accustomed to. Meanwhile it's in the 60s here and they're predicting it will fall to 48 overnight - this is plain crazy. And then tomorrow we're back up to 75 - what is wrong with this picture?

    OK - so, I may reconsider using the fingernail polish for marking petals, as I noticed some of the marked petals browned-up a day or two after, and that didn't seem like a very good thing for the life of the embryo. The magic marker on the other hand, fades a bit, but doesn't seem to affect the health of the petal. I would think that embryo needs some nutrients from the petal as well as the plant, wouldn't you? Or not?
    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "10 degrees cooler when you said yesterday was 100, doesn't sound like much of an improvement to me... "

    Believe me, 10 degrees makes a big difference. I got a seedbed finished, planted, and watered-in today. I don't think I could have made that much progress in 100-plus heat.

    My motive is to get some good big zinnias to use as females for crosses with some of my "exotic" zinnias. The seeds I planted in the new bed were about twice the size of regular zinnia seeds, and were saved in 2010 through 2012 from some extra large aster flowered specimens.

    I'll be starting the construction of another new bed tomorrow, and the ground is very irregular where it will go, so I will be moving in a lot of fill dirt to level it. Today's bed required a couple of days of earth work, but this new bed will be more difficult.

    I figure all this infrastructure work will pay off next year, with minimal work required to make next year's zinnia plantings.

    I could use some of your cool weather to make my garden earthwork easier. I wear headbands to keep the sweat out of my eyes, and I fill up several of them a day in this warm weather.

    " I may reconsider using the fingernail polish for marking petals, as I noticed some of the marked petals browned-up a day or two after, and that didn't seem like a very good thing for the life of the embryo."

    At least you are trying new things, and that is a good thing. You are probably the only person on the planet to have put fingernail polish on zinnia petals.

    "The magic marker on the other hand, fades a bit, but doesn't seem to affect the health of the petal. I would think that embryo needs some nutrients from the petal as well as the plant, wouldn't you?"

    It's very perceptive of you to wonder about the relation between the petal and the embryo. It is possible that the petal does provide sustenance to the developing embryo, but I haven't seen any thing about that in the literature. I think that petals can absorb foliar nutrients after a fashion, but not necessarily in the same way as the leaves can absorb foliar nutrients. Petals seem to be more easily damaged and foliar feeding should be more dilute for them.

    Since zinnias can redirect nutrients from their older leaves to support the growth of newer leaves, perhaps zinnias can draw nutrients from the petals to their attached embryos.

    It may be that the acetone in nail polish kills cells in contact with it, or the nail polish could simply block the breathing of the petals, if indeed they need to breathe. The leaves have stomata to breathe through. I don't know if the zinnia petals have stomata, or much at all about the workings of the petals. It will be interesting to see how your zinnia embryos fare.

    I continue to see variations in my recombinant tubular star-tipped specimens. This one has more widely spaced tubular petal-flowers.

    {{gwi:13654}} I have mentioned before that I like zinnia blooms to have their petals more loosely arranged so that you can "see through" the bloom, and that "exotic" specimen tends to have that property.

    As new variations of the exotics appear, I wonder how far this type of zinnia can be developed. That is why I want to cross them with a variety of zinnia forms and colors.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - hope you are staying hydrated. It will not benefit your little leafy children if you are down with a summer cold or heat stroke. You're doing springtime duty in the middle of the summer, after all.
    That latest tubular flower looks sort of scabious formed. Do you get some plants that revert to the great-great,etc.-grandmother's form, or do the tubulars pretty much remain tubular when you cross them with each other? Or are you only crossing them now with the larger flowered Burpees Giants and such?

    Wow - now there's a distinction: You are probably the only person on the planet to have put fingernail polish on zinnia petals. No, surely not. There must be at least one other fool out there who had this idea. :) I really should have known better. I don't like the smell of that stuff - I can feel it's toxicity - of course it would be bad for the plant. I fell into the mistaken notion of a petal being analogous to a fingernail - dead extension, so to speak. I will have to make note if any of the marked petals actually produce a viable embryo or not. That goes for the magic markered ones as well. Will have to do unmarked crosses of future blossoms of the same plants, making note of location by using the same specific quadrant of the flowerheads, and save that seed separately, so I can make a comparison. Just as well, as I said before, that I've kept my zinnia bed small - this is already taxing my limited memory capacity - lol. Actually, my memory is quite good - if we're talking books, authors and titles. :) Just don't ask me what I did yesterday, because I can't remember.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "...hope you are staying hydrated."

    I am. I am single handedly supporting the Gatorade people. I consume their low calorie version, G2, and in the food-color-free mixed berry flavor.

    " Do you get some plants that revert to the great-great, etc.-grandmother's form, or do the tubulars pretty much remain tubular when you cross them with each other?"

    Many of them do seem to revert to members of the family tree, or at least to forms similar to the ancestors. Apparently the recombinants can occur in nearly all possible combinations and recombinations of the genetic mix. Over 90% are "not what I am looking for", so my cull rate remains high. Today I am doing some garden maintenance, and I am culling quite a few tubulars that look kind of "trashy". A few years ago I would have been thrilled to have them. That's progress.

    "Or are you only crossing them now with the larger flowered Burpees Giants and such?"

    Most of the tubulars have at least one large zinnia in their family tree, although none of them have Burpeeana Giants blood. Large aster flowered is the most common large representative. This is the first year that I have been using the Burpeeana Giants to cross with exotics. Next year I plan to include Benary's Giants as an important contributor to my breeding, mainly for their strong stems and largish double flowers.

    Most of my tubulars now are at least twice the size of the original tubular "mutant" (E2). One recent tubular was over four inches in diameter, although its large tubular flare-out and close-packed petals disguised the tubular nature of the bloom. My goal is to get the "exotics" as large as the largest zinnias, over six inches in diameter.

    "That latest tubular flower looks sort of scabious formed. "

    This is a current recombinant that reminds me even more of the scabious flowerform.

    {{gwi:13655}} Looking closer at the "petals" reveals that they are not really tubular, but are open "tubes" or "florets", with the look of a floret with a possible anther bundle. Perhaps you can see the unusual stigma shape in this close-up.

    {{gwi:13656}} That specimen merits closer study, and designation as a breeder. It may be the first zinnia whose petals come complete with their own anther bundles. As I grow more and more of these "exotics", I expect that I will see more interesting variations.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - 4 inches in diameter is pretty good size. Pretty cool to see that development.

    Here's a pic of the petal damage from the fingernail polish. Not all of them with polish are this bad, but I'd say it's pretty indisputable that the polish did this:
    {{gwi:13657}}

    Here's the netting over one of the whirligigs - you can see the magic marker marks on some of the petals.
    {{gwi:13658}}

    A recent arrival - I think this is from seed saved in 2011; either that or it's a cactus that doesn't look very cactus-y.
    {{gwi:13659}}

    Last pic: this is the very first cactus that bloomed back on 7-9-14. It's also the largest and most robust. And it still looks lovely. I'll have to make sure I cross it with everything!
    - Alex
    {{gwi:13660}}

  • goclon
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    While I was puttering around my zinnias, I noted that several thumbelinas were not hues of fuchsia, but orange, and those all had a purple flush at the base! I will try to isolate this trait. It seems to be recessive to the pinks, but very dominant to anything else. Also, no real tubulars in this generation, but all my zinnias from last year's seed has that peculiar ruffling and puckering, with most of the pollen florets forming small tubes. The only zinnia with tubing on normal petals is a direct descendant from last yer's, which is purple, informally double, with the final st of petals paler with variant tubing with large "flairs"

    Zenman, your scabious seems to be very special. I envy you! Perhaps the x-tip drowning was because they were fused pollen florets?

    Alex, that cactus is magnificent! How BIG is that thing? It also displays the trait of staining at the bases of stems and leaves that indicate heavy anthocyanin pigments. Might be worth breeding zinnias with black stems...

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Goclon - glad you asked, because I didn't think to measure it and I know I'd be wondering later - it's a little over 5" across.
    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Edited to remove a duplicate post.

    This post was edited by zenman on Wed, Jul 30, 14 at 1:21

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everybody,

    Alex, you are doing well with the netting and magic marker marks. That last pink cactus looks like a great breeder. And most commercial zinnias in the 5-inch class call themselves "giant".

    Goclon, it will be interesting to see what you can do with that purple-flush-at-the-base trait. Do you have a preference for the small Thumbelina strain? They are a very miniature zinnia, perhaps the most miniature. The commercial F1 Zinnita strain is a bit larger, I think.

    This "exotic" specimen has an extra large flare-out at the end of its tubular petals, which is an interesting variation that I hope to see more of.

    {{gwi:13661}} There is a Nine Spotted Cucumber Beetle in the center of it, no doubt "chowing down" on the nearby floral parts. Fortunately I don't have a lot of those cucumber beetles this year.

    About three years ago, when I was growing cantaloupes, muskmelons, and watermelons, they seemed to attract or breed a lot of Nine Spotted Cucumber Beetles (NSCBs for short) and the NSCBs moved onto my zinnias in great numbers, inflicting a lot of cosmetic damage, despite my hand picking them. I quit growing the melons just to reduce my problems with those beetles. That seems to have worked fairly well.

    ZM

  • goclon
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Talking about tubulars, a self-seeded zinnia finally flowered! It has excellent branching, very dark stem bases, the strange wavy-new-leaves phenotype and both the purple/orange tinge-ing and tubing on about 3/4ths of the petals. The unsplit tube is about 3/8 of an inch, with a deep "cleft" where the petal edges meet. It is more like Jackie's than last year's form.

    I like your new tubular, and yes, I do like Thumbilinia. I hope to interbreed among strains to get zinnis around mini-rose size (Like Ralph Moore's, no the supermarket ones)

  • goclon
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another tubular popped up in my Burpeeana bed! It has much smaller cleavage.

    also, a seedling from Envy flowered. It was a strange shade of pink, fading out to normal pink (influence from Envy's hues, perhaps) with slight reflection and perfectly circular form. Interesting...

    This post was edited by Goclon on Fri, Aug 1, 14 at 8:10

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Goclon,

    "I do like Thumbelina. I hope to interbreed among strains to get zinnias around mini-rose size (Like Ralph Moore's, no the supermarket ones)"

    Any cross between Thumbelina and another zinnia is going to yield some interesting results, both in the F1 phase and also in the F2 phase and beyond. There are some other dwarf zinnias that you might want to add to the mix, along with the super-dwarf Thumbelinas. Zinnita is an actual F1 hybrid, but I think it is a little larger than Thumbelina. Also, Short Stuff is remarkable, in that its flowers are very large compared to the height of the plant. Short Stuff is also an F1 hybrid. Zinnita is available in separate colors from Hazzards. I think there is an online source of Short Stuff in separate colors, but I don't know where at the moment..

    It sounds like you are getting some interesting new specimens blooming out. I have a personal preference for zinnia blooms that are open, rather than with tightly packed petals. Many of my tubulars are rather tightly packed, but some are more open, like this current specimen.

    {{gwi:13662}} As I grow more and more tubular specimens, I anticipate that I will have the opportunity to be more selective in which ones I save seeds from. More later.

    ZM
    (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

    This post was edited by zenman on Mon, Aug 4, 14 at 0:06

  • jackier_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello everyone!

    I just got back from a trip to Texas--very hot, but enjoyable. The only kinds of zinnias I saw there were the marylandicas, or Profusion type, of cultivars. It's a shame that zinnias aren't used more in landscaping as they are so colorful, and the bloom time is long.

    When I got back, the zinnias here were full of seeds to be harvested, so I have been busy with that, as well as just wandering around the garden, observing the flowers and all the creatures that visit there. It seems there is never enough time to do that!

    The petal marking technique is interesting, Alex. It seems that the marker seems to work best! I wonder if tying tiny colored threads around the petals, or little bits of tape, might work as well?

    I really like all your descriptions of the flowers you are getting. ZM, your tubular flowers are very pretty, and have a lot of varying appearances. That last pink one is very nice, but they all are! I have a few flowers with tubular petals here, but the tubes are limited to the first-formimg, or bottom layers, not all of the petals. Nevertheless, I will save seeds from these!

    My extreme roll flowers have either needle-like or relaxed and rolled petals. The most extreme are always shades of purple or pink, while the more relaxed forms may vary some in color.

    {{gwi:13663}}

    {{gwi:13664}}

    Jackie

  • goclon
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jackie, your last one is very interesting... I would call it very attractive. The rolls also have waving, something I would like to see!

    ZM, Short Stuff and Zinitta would be worth looking into- I like F1's because the F2 has excellent diversity.

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jackie,

    I like all of your extreme rolls, but I am absolutely wild about that first picture, the one with the needle-like petals. You have showed pictures of similar ones in the past, and every one of those extra-skinny petaled blooms is a show stopper. I continue to be thrilled at all the amazing things that zinnias can do, with your ultra extreme rolls being a prime example.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello, once again!

    It was another seed-collecting day....I'm trying to get as many seeds from my non-rolls as possible, both for future years, and to essentially deadhead them, so I get lots more bloom and color. I like to see what happens after the pollinators randomly cross the cactuses, whirligigs, Benaries, and scabious flowers that I have. Goclon, the next generations are always exciting to see! I wish I lived in a cimate where I could grow zinnias outdoors all year round!

    ZM, I like the needle-like petals, too, but it almost seems that the color genes are linked to the extreme rolling, and I haven't been able to escape the color that I continue to have. I had a question for you. Have you ever followed the germination and growth of a plant arising from a disc floret seed? Just wondering...they are so much smaller that the seeds coming from the female flowers! I wondered if that had any effect on the progeny?

    Here is a flower I found today:

    {{gwi:13665}}

    Jackie

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jackie,

    "Have you ever followed the germination and growth of a plant arising from a disc floret seed? Just wondering...they are so much smaller that the seeds coming from the female flowers! I wondered if that had any effect on the progeny? "

    Yes, I have done that many times. Many times I package the floret seeds and the petal seeds separately. And when I plant them, I note "floret" or "petal" on the plant label.

    Incidentally, some of my zinnia specimens have extra large floret seeds, as large or larger than the petal seeds. But then, I have seen floret seeds that were tiny black things, micro seeds. I think the floret seeds are essentially 100% selfed. Other than that, I haven't seen any peculiarities of plants from the floret seeds.

    That extreme roll is spectacular, with three colors, the light purple backside, the light yellow inside of the petal, and the reddish color at the base of the petals. That yellow-red combination strongly suggests Whirligig ancestry.

    Back on July 8 you made the following query:

    " I wonder about the brown tips that you see. Are they maybe red and look that way because of the overall pink color? Or could they be a result of weathering or damage to the bud as it was opening? "

    I have been musing over what you said, and no immediate response came to mind. My star-tipped mutant (coded as G13) was white with brown tips, and I was pretty sure those brown tips were genetic rather than environmental. And I anticipated that they would recur repeatedly in various recombinations. Sometimes the tips reoccur in other colors, which is fine, but sometimes they occur on colored petals as brown tips, like on this specimen.

    {{gwi:13666}} If you look closely, you can see the brown tips, even though the blooms look rather attractive despite them. You can see that tips are a definite brown feature in this close-up, cropped from the picture above.

    {{gwi:13667}} There is a peculiar texture in the brown tips, like more than just coloration is involved, and a modification has occurred in the underlying tissue. I plan not to save seeds from specimens with brown tips, because I suspect that the feature is a potential cosmetic defect. I think brown is a potential new zinnia color, but not necessarily a desirable one. Brown might be acceptable in combination with other more usual zinnia colors. More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey guys,
    Been super busy with the shop and haven't been doing much outside except harvesting food. Somehow (maybe through one of the cats since I have yet to see the plant on our property), I have gotten poison ivy on my lower back. Didn't even know it was there as I can't see it where it's situated, but apparently - judging by hindsight from the mysterious ailments I've been suffering - it was at least a couple of weeks ago. Have been researching it, and see the reaction is systemic which could explain the backpains, severe allergic reaction on my tongue and gums, and the painful sensitivity to skin on my stomach opposite to the location of the rash on my back. Never has itched, thankfully, but it's painful and debilitating. I'm treating it with topical benadryl, but am not particularly pleased to read that symptoms can go on for MONTHS.
    Beautiful flowers, BTW. Sorry to be grousing about pain. :) And 2 things: didn't we discuss this thing about the disc floret seeds as opposed to the female petals, and you said it didn't matter? I think I was confused about the terminology - well, I'm confused again about this size thing.
    Also, ZM - the brown tips - is this really coloration? It still looks like age or stress browning to me.
    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    You have my sympathy on the Poison Ivy thing. I got minor exposure on my hands (both of them) somehow in my garden/lawn activity. Actually, I suspect it was when I was mowing the lawn and reached into the mower to unclog the passage between the mower and the grass catcher bag. I think there was some Poison Ivy mixed in that grass. But that's just my theory. The blisters on my hands looked just like the pictures.

    "...I have yet to see the plant on our property..."

    Actually, it may not be the classic "leaves of three, let it be". You can get the same allergic reaction from Poison Ivy, Poison Oak, or Poison Sumac. Also, if you have Milkweed for the butterflies, contact with that can be serious.

    "...didn't we discuss this thing about the disc floret seeds as opposed to the female petals, and you said it didn't matter?"

    You can grow zinnias from either floret seeds (disc seeds) or petal seeds (ray seeds). The floret seeds are almost certainly selfed, while the petal seeds may be crosses, because they aren't pollen bearing. Petal seeds all look pretty much alike, but floret seeds occur in several very different looking forms. I think Jackie once described some floret seeds as "looking like grains of wheat". Floret seeds can be black, nearly white, or any of several different shades of gray.

    "...the brown tips - is this really coloration? It still looks like age or stress browning to me."

    It's probably not coloration based on a brown pigment. It is probably structural. For that matter, there are some nice white zinnias, and I don't think their white petals contain a white pigment like titanium white, zinc white, magnesia, or any white "chemical". I think white zinnia petals owe their white color to some cellular structure. Certain zinnia shades of lavender or light purple can combine with certain yellows or yellow-oranges to produce a somewhat brown-looking mixture. There was a little bit of that effect on the petal ends of this zinnia.

    {{gwi:13668}} The zinnia pictured in my last message was not old nor did it have any significant stress. It was growing among other zinnias that showed no such browning of their petal tips. I could be wrong, but I think that the tip browning is a genetic factor that a significant number of my zinnias with my G13 zinnia in their family tree will have.

    The good news is that many of the G13 descendants manage to turn the brown-tip genes into a contrasting color, like bright yellow. I knew I was taking a chance when I used a lot of G13's pollen on many of my breeder zinnias, and I am just glad that the brown tips can show up in different colors in at least some of the descendants.

    I hope your symptoms from whatever-it-was get better.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi!

    The brown coloration on your zinnias is different, ZM, if it isn't some sort of aging or damage. I know one time I got a zinnia, last year, that almost looked brown, but not quite like the Whirligig you showed.

    {{gwi:13669}}

    Here is what one of the rolled flowers with a lot of petals looks from the side:

    {{gwi:13670}}

    I actually wish more of these were producing more pollen so that I can cross them!

    Alex, your condition sounds very trying---the symptoms almost sound like the descriptions acquaintances have related with respect to a case of shingles! Are you sure that it is poison ivy? I hope it clears up soon!

    Well, I have to get back out..hard to resist the garden, but there is my barnyard that I have to clean..the upside is that my compost will become richer for it!

    Jackie

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Geez, Jackie - you may be right about it's being shingles. Which makes more sense to me than the poison ivy since I kept wondering how it got on my back. I'm always pretty well covered up when I'm outside since I burn easily.
    Wow - brown zinnias! I like both yours and ZM's - have always liked earth tones.
    - Alex

  • jackier_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Alex, best check out your condition with a doctor, and find out for sure what you have! Hope things improve!

    More about zinnias soon!

    Jackie

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jackie - might go tomorrow - really hate going to the doctor. :(
    Zinnia question: I'm concerned that my marking system isn't going to survive drying, and I really wanted to be able to save at least a few seeds of each plant that I felt confident were my crosses.
    So - for the first crosses I made, it's been about 3-1/2 weeks - could I try harvesting some of them green if they appear ready, but then set the seed aside to dry rather than plant? If I harvested them now, I'd still be able to see my marks. Maybe I could just harvest a couple each, but let the others dry on the plant?
    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "I'm concerned that my marking system isn't going to survive drying, and I really wanted to be able to save at least a few seeds of each plant that I felt confident were my crosses. So - for the first crosses I made, it's been about 3-1/2 weeks - could I try harvesting some of them green if they appear ready, but then set the seed aside to dry rather than plant? If I harvested them now, I'd still be able to see my marks."

    Yes, pull a few of the lower seeds and inspect them to see if they look fertile. They should look somewhat fat, and they should feel that way if you pinch them gently.

    You could punch a tiny hole in your dots, with the idea that after the petal dies and turns brown, the hole will act as a telltale. A nail, ice pick, sharp pencil or possibly even a ballpoint pen might serve to punch the holes.

    This is a picture of one of my tubular blooms that I have exposed the stigmas on to make them accessible to pollination.

    {{gwi:13671}} Like I said before, I have become fairly adept at exposing the stigmas of tubular petals, so that I get a good crop of pollinated petal seeds on selected breeder specimens.

    At seed harvest time I still see the odd phenomenon of tubular petal seeds in some flower heads that have become well pollinated by some natural means, and I still have no idea how that happens. I have postulated several theories to explain it, but so far I don't have any positive evidence to solve the mystery. More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - You weren't perhaps a surgeon before you retired, were you? Nice clean cutting on such a micro-job! I definitely miss not being able to see upclose as I once did. I will have to consider getting one of those head-mount magnifiers, not just for this hobby, but for any closeup work that I do.
    Today when the dew dries off, I will go see about harvesting some green seed - woo hoo!
    - Alex

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey! I've got plumped-up green seeds! How cool is that? :) Wish I could plant them now, but I'm not really set up for indoor flowering, so I'll just have to wait...
    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "Wish I could plant them now, but I'm not really set up for indoor flowering, so I'll just have to wait... "

    Growing zinnias indoors can be a challenge. And you probably don't want to mess with growing zinnias in your greenhouse. But, as an experiment, you could plant two or three of your plump seeds in a container or containers. A couple of containers wouldn't be too much of a commitment.

    The containers could stay outdoors during the Summer and early Fall, and then come indoors as temporary house guests when killing frosts threaten. That might extend their growing season just enough for them to set some green seeds of their own, giving you a supply of F2 seeds for next Spring. The F2 generation is when the wild recombinations occur.

    Here is a picture of a kind of ghost-like recombinant zinnia that combines genes from my original tubular (code-named E2) and my original start-tipped mutant (code-named G13).

    {{gwi:13672}} I haven't decided whether to treat it as a breeder or not. It is kind of different, but I am discarding a bunch of culls that are "kind of different". I'll probably keep that one. More later. We got a pretty good shower this evening. We really needed the water.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - Whoa...let me think about this. OK. Since the ones I'd most be interested in will have cactus genes mixed in, I should look at bloom being more like 8 weeks from planting. Though container growing does tend to stress plants into a faster life cycle in my experience.
    Anyway, they'd have at least a month (+ ?) of time in which they could be outdoors which would be good.
    Do you recommend starting them like I do everything else - starter pot, then transplant after they set true leaves? And how big a pot do you typically grow them in?
    Also, how cold can I allow them to get and still have them flower, do you think? I ask this, because there could be an issue with the cats that would require me to put the plants somewhere besides main living areas, and there could be a greater variation in temps. Am I sounding OC again? - LOL
    - Alex
    Oh, and silly me - so self-absorbed - I vote for your using the last tubular for a breeder - nice form! :)

    This post was edited by samhain10 on Thu, Aug 7, 14 at 8:15

  • mister_guy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What size zinnias are you looking for? I was extremely satisfied with soda-bottle "half-gallon" DIY pots, by cutting the top off at the label, slitting the cone top up for drainage, and stuffing them upside down back inside the bottle with some holes cut in each of the little bottle "feet". I transplanted into them from cell starter trays, and they were pretty happy. Keep in mind you're trying to balance transplant shock, which delays blooming, against larger containers can delaying vegetative growth, as a lot of plants prefer to fill the root structure before really getting bushy. Nine times out of ten, there's probably only a week or two difference in the growth between the choices, and a lot of it will depend on how much light they get, how they like the humidity, correct nutrients, etc etc. The only reason why YOU care, is because you might be racing a clock. I honestly don't know how to pick, but from a practical standpoint, I'd probably try to stress them into the smallest container I could growing as fast as they can.

    That being said, I've also tried various sized square pots based on Zenman's tips in other versions of this thread. Standard 3x3x3 starter cubes do just fine for a bushy short varieties. The 4x4x4 ones handle bigger ones to bloom, but probably stress them out. I really like the 4x4x10 pots. What I'm currently doing is planting them in trays of 3x3x3s, bringing them to bloom in those, and transplanting keepers into 4x4x10s, and culls into the yard border.

    It should be noted everything zenman has said about difficulty growing zinnias indoors is worth noting, as I personally bounce between problems with rust (or some other kind of fungus that looks like rust to me), whiteflies that I don't understand how they keep coming back, and fungus gnats. I seem to need to pick between disease and pests or overly dry conditions. I am trying Organicide currently to keep things in control but I have only been maintaining two breeders due to the hassle of it since winter. Winter was fine, as lighting up a room in your house in the winter in the South is almost all the heat we needed upstairs. In the summer, temperature and humidity has been a real hassle for me, and I've seriously considered a dedicated outdoor greenhouse/shed for plants.

    Fortunately, with zinnias, you get several tries a year, even out in the yard, if you're fast with the green seeds, and I have four or five beautiful large plants in the yard I am gathering seeds from to try a new less eco-friendly, death to anything but plants approach in my indoor growing space.

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    " Though container growing does tend to stress plants into a faster life cycle in my experience...Do you recommend starting them like I do everything else - starter pot, then transplant after they set true leaves? And how big a pot do you typically grow them in?"

    I was suggesting you try just two or three containers, of the sort they use in container gardening. And just put the growing medium in the pot and plant just a few seeds in each pot. With just a few pots, square pots to make maximum use of space is not an issue. Although some plant containers are square. To keep weight from being an issue, you wouldn't want to pick huge containers. Home stores usually have a section of plant containers. Some are made of pottery material, but the look-alike plastic versions weigh less. I was thinking of something in the 12-inch range, holding a gallon or two. An old bucket might do.

    This would be done in the spirit of doing an experiment. You might want to breach the green seeds to make them germinate quicker.

    "I ask this, because there could be an issue with the cats that would require me to put the plants somewhere besides main living areas, and there could be a greater variation in temps. Am I sounding OC again?"

    You are not at all obsessive-compulsive. You are just being realistic and practical. This little project doesn't have to be a success. It's just something to try now with a few of your plump green seeds, without getting totally involved in indoor growing. If you should get some second generation green seeds out of it, so much the better.

    Many of my "exotic" zinnias have formed bushes by now.

    {{gwi:13673}} They seem to look less unusual when they are on "regular" looking bushes. More later. I am starting to pay more attention to the zinnia plants themselves, and their plant habits.

    ZM

    This post was edited by zenman on Thu, Aug 7, 14 at 14:30

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, Mister Guy and ZM, for the helpful suggestions. I have thought it through, and decided to wait. Too many negative factors - or at least questionable - to consider. If I wait till next season, I can proceed with the same confidence that I normally feel, that my seedlings will have the best chance they can have for growth and flowering. Next year I may feel differently, and want to hurry the process along. For now, I shall school myself to be content, especially knowing I will have fewer charges to worry about when the weather turns nasty. (Meaning, when it starts to freeze and snow, the ferals are my most important concern.)

    ZM - isn't that interesting - how different the blooms look when seen as a group instead of singly! Yes, much less "unusual", and - funny, they seem more zinnia-like. Maybe because I'm seeing the foliage? You've already got me noticing plant habits: thickness of stalks, angle of branching, etc. I've started a notebook in which I will try to record all these observations, along with my crosses.

    And as a parting note, here is a zinnia (and friend) which was part of a mixed package of annuals, sent free with a seed order. Hasn't bloomed yet.

    - Alex

  • jackier_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello all!

    ZM, I liked seeing your zinnias on the whole plant. I actually feel that they look even more exotic...you expect to see common zinnias, and you see something that looks much more different. They really don't look like zinnias at all..really interesting.

    Alex, your little visitor looks cute on the zinnia...how well camouflaged he is! I am with you in terms of bypassing growing zinnias indoors. It is a lot of careful work there, although it really speeds up the breeding process. I tried it once, and even got some flowers, but didn't have the special lighting that ZM has, and the plants were elongated without the intense light.

    I have been looking at whole plants including the flowers and I've noticed that my very extreme flowers come on plants that have narrower than usual leaves.

    I am still in the process of collecting seeds. This is something I enjoy,but very time consuming! I collect from both the Extreme Roll flowers along with what I call the "general population." The finches are having a field day with the seeds, and I also see a number of cardinals feasting on the sunflowers. There are a lot of hummingbirds, and I've noticed many times not only are they competitive with each other, but also with the butterflies. I have a nice bunch of pipevine caterpillars growing up in my pipevine plant. It seems that the butterflies are doing better than last year, perhaps because of the rain we have had. Our July was record- setting for low temperatures in Indiana.

    Jackie

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jackie - Yeah, I was going to be collecting seeds today myself since this is the beginning of my weekend (shop is officially open Thurs - Sun, though we're often there other days as well), but wouldn't you know it - it's getting ready to pour out there. Why couldn't it have done this yesterday?!

    You just pointed out one of the other aspects of trying to grow things to flowering stage under lights - the elongation/spindly growth business. I deal with that a bit at the beginning of the planting cycle, but compensate when I transplant by planting deeper. By the time it would get to be a serious issue, the weather usually permits me to start carrying flats outside to get real sun. Wouldn't be able to do that with in-house zinnias. This is a good test of my patience anyway - when I get enthusiastic about something, I just want to DO it, and that's not always best.

    Had a pipevine once that I started from seed, back when Organic Gardening magazine was under the editorship of Mike McGrath, and there was alot of fun stuff going on, including a seed exchange program. It was an interesting plant, but I decided it might not make it in our climate, so I mailed the plant to a lady in Indiana. She, in turn, sent me two tulip tree whips, one of which is still with me but instead of being 2 ft tall, is closer to 40. I hope my pipevine is doing as well for her.
    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "By the time it would get to be a serious issue, the weather usually permits me to start carrying flats outside to get real sun. Wouldn't be able to do that with in-house zinnias. "

    Could you explain that a bit? I am hoping it will be possible for you to do that with in-house zinnias (or with in-greenhouse zinnias) without a lot of changes to your present methods.

    ZM

  • Desirai
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here are some zinnias I planted at my grandparents' house! :)

    {{gwi:13674}}
    {{gwi:13675}}
    {{gwi:13676}}

  • goclon
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    :O Those first two zinnias have the same purple flush! Although it is more attractive on yellows and oranges...

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - You're right, it probably would be possible, but the conditions wouldn't be all that great. I can't use the greenhouse in the winter for anything that can't handle being frozen. I tried in the beginning to heat the thing, but it was way too expensive. When I start my seeds in the spring, I have them under lights in the spare room, which is not as warm as the main part of the house. The seedlings do get spindly in the beginning because I haven't been able to find the high intensity bulbs I used to have - but as I said - when I transplant, I can fix this by planting deeper. Sometimes I transplant more than once. Anyway, way before bloom time, I am able to carry the plants out for brief hours in the sun, (leading up to full day sun.) I will move some things to the greenhouse at this point, but we're still talking about April or May. It takes this long to be fairly certain that the greenhouse will manage to stay at least a bit above freezing. I have to believe that the zinnias would be attempting bloom long before this.
    But, it's OK. Seriously, by the time the end of season gets here, I am ready to take a break for awhile.
    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "The seedlings do get spindly in the beginning because I haven't been able to find the high intensity bulbs I used to have... "

    You are right. Spindly seedlings are caused by insufficient light. I seem to recall that your fluorescent setup uses extra long bulbs. Am I remembering correctly about that? If you replaced that rig with shoplights that use 4-foot T8 bulbs, it should be easy to get more light, by simply hanging more shoplights over your plants. And if you hang all the shoplights that you have room for, and still need more light, you can always overdrive your fixtures for nearly double their light output. Or, you could leapfrog that, and get an HID (High Intensity Discharge) light. Someday (but no time soon) I will probably experiment with an HID light source. Or you can continue your present policy of compensating for spindly seedlings by planting them deeper. Whatever works for you.

    "But, it's OK. Seriously, by the time the end of season gets here, I am ready to take a break for awhile."

    We will miss you. But I understand your need to take a break. In my case, "taking a break" will be transitioning to indoor gardening. Which does have its advantages. Not having to fight weeds is a big one.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - Oh, you won't get rid of me that easily! I'm still going to be monitoring what you and the others are doing. And no doubt complaining about how there's 3 ft of snow outside my window. But let's not go there yet!

    I saved the discussion from way back when lighting fixtures were the topic. As I said then, eventually this 8 ft fixture - yes, you remembered correctly - will die on me, and I'll have to get something else. You can believe I am not going to go the 8 ft route again - pain in the @*## for sure! So many other choices easily available when you stick with 4 ft fixtures. But right now it is what it is, and I'll use it.

    Yeah, not having to fight weeds and grass probably is a real treat. :)
    - Alex

  • jackier_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi all,

    We have gotten more rain here, and it is still fairly cool. Here are several of the rolled flowers, with a lot of petals!

    {{gwi:13677}}

    {{gwi:13678}}

    Jackie

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jackie,

    Spectacular! Those are incredible! Just incredible. I am speechless. Get some pollen on those stigmas. Even if it's not uproll pollen, get them pollinated. Remember, if the F1 hybrids don't have the extreme uproll trait, you can recover the trait in at least some of the F2 progeny from the F1s. Of course, uproll pollen would be better.

    Those so deserve to become a commercially available strain of zinnias. Some seed company or companies should make you an attractive offer for your seed stock.

    Wow!

    ZM

  • mister_guy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cheap bulk photography daylight tuned CFLS is not merely an impressive string of adjectives, but also the cheapest cure for spindly plants. I seem to have accidentally "pinned" some of my zinnias, where the growth was so concentrated the second through eighth blooms were right on the heels of the first, but ALL the blooms took forever.

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Mister.Guy,

    " I was extremely satisfied with soda-bottle "half-gallon" DIY pots, by cutting the top off at the label, slitting the cone top up for drainage, and stuffing them upside down back inside the bottle with some holes cut in each of the little bottle "feet"."

    I also used the bottoms of 2-liter soda-bottles as pots. I am a little confused by how you made yours. I just cut the top off and drilled drainage holes in the bottom of the feet. This is an old picture of one being used to grow a zinnia from a cutting.

    {{gwi:13679}} I really liked their indestructability, transparency, and the fact that they didn't cost anything. But I quite using them because they were prone to tipping over, and their circular cross section didn't have as much root volume as square pots.

    I don't know if it is feasible for you to post pictures, but if you could, pictures of how you prepared the soda-bottle pots would be helpful. From what you said, I wondered if you had figured out a way to solve the tipping problem.

    "In the summer, temperature and humidity has been a real hassle for me, and I've seriously considered a dedicated outdoor greenhouse/shed for plants. "

    How about just growing the Summer zinnias in-ground in the garden? For many people, a greenhouse is too hot in the Summer to be habitable by plants (or people).

    "Fortunately, with zinnias, you get several tries a year, even out in the yard, if you're fast with the green seeds, and I have four or five beautiful large plants in the yard I am gathering seeds from to try a new less eco-friendly, death to anything but plants approach in my indoor growing space."

    Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with that. But I am curious about the details of your "new less eco-friendly, death to anything but plants" approach in your indoor growing space. I think we are thinking in a very similar way on the indoor growing of zinnias. I fought a running battle with thrips all last Winter. I look forward to bringing some more powerful weapons against them this Winter.

    Perhaps we should discuss our various problems and solutions for growing zinnias successfully indoors. I don't recommend indoor zinnia growing because it isn't easy, but if you are doing it, then we may have a lot of things to talk about.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Desirai - here is one of my red zinnias that has that purple center like yours - love those colors!
    {{gwi:13680}}

    And here are two other whirligigs that look more like scabious than the zinnias I'm calling scabious. I'd almost think I made a mistake, but I think they really are whirligigs.
    Sorry I marked them before taking the pics:
    {{gwi:13681}}

    {{gwi:13682}}

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    Those last two zinnias are scabious, and not Whirligig. And pretty good scabis at that. When the pollen florets are petal-colored instead of yellow fuzzy, the zinnia is almost always a scabiosa flowered specimen. You have somehow wound up with some pretty good zinnias -- quite excellent for a beginner. Hybridized scabis can be larger and have larger scabious centers, like this one.

    {{gwi:13683}} That recombinant also has some two-colored genes from a Whirligig or two. You can't see it well in that picture, but the guard petals have a medium purple colored base. The contrasting color between the guard petals and the scabious florets is also a bit unusual. That little single zinnia in the lower right-hand corner got culled. It was crowding the "good" zinnia in the picture.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - really like the two toned scabious above. Yeah, I can just see the purple base there on the left - cool!

    Well, dang! I know I was an idiot for not sticking some markers in when I planted my zinnias, but I was almost positive that I planted the whirligigs last, because I thought they were going to be shortest. This may or may not be true about the height issue, but it was my guideline for positioning the plants. Cactus at the far end of the bed, followed by Green Envy, followed by Scabious, and ending with Whirligigs. Now I don't know what to think. Only a couple of the Green Envys are green, my whirligigs look like scabious and only a few of my whirligigs are bi-colored as I would expect most of them to be!

    Oh, well. I'm keeping better records now. :) And next year I'm going to spring for some expensive whirligig seeds from which ever company you guys tell me you think you've had the best selection. Like those samples Jackie posted - the wild and crazy bi-colors! I'll cross those with whatever seeds I save from this year, not adding any other storebought seeds except those.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everyone,

    Since this message thread has gone well beyond 100 messages and is a bit unwieldy, we are continuing this message thread over on
    It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 27.

    See you all over there.

    ZM