Once again, the previous part of this ongoing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 11, is becoming rather long and slow to load, so we are continuing the series here.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine and, as a courtesy to readers with smaller monitors, try to keep the pictures posted no wider than 986 pixels.

This is a picture of another of my recombinants that combine Whirligig coloration with a cactus-like flower form.

The colors in this one range from canary yellow through yellow-orange toward pink. It is rather similar to another specimen I posted in Part 11. I'll cross-pollinate the two. I am hoping to get a strain of multi-colored spider flowered zinnias, but I have a ways to go to achieve that. There may be a few bumps in the road toward that goal, but the journey is a lot of fun for me.

ZM

ZM, a line of bicolored cactuses would be a welcome addition to all the zinnias that are offered. I find them once in a while among all my cactuses, and rarely among my whirligigs, and they always stand out. The gold-yellow and pink bicolor looks good.

I have been in the Ozarks for the past week, kind of in ZM's neck of the woods, well, more so than Indiana! I didn't see a zinnia there, but lots of crepe myrtle and resurrection lilies and cosmos.

Anyway, I came back to a water-damaged garden--we had 2 3/4 inches of rain in the last week.

Here are some of the flowers I have now:

The flower without petals is example of what breeders try to get large numbers of--it's called "apetalous male sterile."
That way, they can pollinate all the plants as they want without a chance of self pollination--the 100% females are very easy to pick out and the rest can be removed! I seldom see these, but have one plant in my garden now. The plant with the extreme-rolled petals has a more mature flower now, with more buds coming. I think it's an interesting mutation--I hope it can be inherited, so I'm selfing it.

JG

You have some exciting stuff there! That toothy red and white is great, and it cries for a strain of toothy bicolors. If you grew a lot of selfs from it, you might find some with even more toothiness, including all of the petals being toothy, and the toothiness being even more extreme.

Your extreme rolled mutation is a whole new flower form! I hope you can get a lot of seeds from it. That is worthy of becoming a new zinnia strain, with commercial possibilities.

I hope the water damage wasn't excessive. We had about an inch of rain over the last few days and we have had a very cool July, with several record lows. With our flat impervious soil, 2¾ inches of rain would convert my garden to a rice paddy.

I wonder how the seed companies get a lot of those "apetalous male sterile" zinnias for commercial production of F1 hybrid zinnias. Do you remember the Burpee Zenith F1 hybrids? They must have been produced using large numbers of apetalous male-sterile zinnias. I hope you save seeds from your apetalous male sterile specimen to see if a certain fraction of its progeny are like it, or whether you have to go to the F2 generation to get them again.

We aren't in the Ozarks here in east central Kansas, but when we lived in the St. Louis area (before Maine), we were fairly near the foothills of the Ozarks. A guide at a local natural history museum said that the Ozarks are the oldest continuously habitable landmass on the planet. There was a site not too far from St. Louis that was both an archeological excavation site and a paleontological excavation site. Early man had hunted both mammoths and mastodons in that area.

Back to your zinnias. That rose suffused orange is unusual, and that pastel scabiosa flowered specimen is classic. That rose pink that fades to near white is really nice. I have had a few that were similar, but not as nice as yours. And I think yours looks much nicer than Burpee's Exquisite zinnia strain.

You've got some really great breeder zinnias. They make me very optimistic about what zinnias can do in the future.

ZM

I was disappointed on a quick check of my somewhat soggy garden last evening. I have shown earlier a yellow flower with red-tipped petals that I thought was interesting. The second flower on the same plant was a solid red! A similar thing happened when I looked at the plant that had the red flower with tubular petals--the second and third flowers on that same plant had red daisy-like, but flat, petals. Consistency in these zinnias would be nice!

More later.....

JG

This is a picture of the second side branch bloom on the plant that I pictured back on Sun, Jul 12, 09 at 1:34.

The petal formation is a little different on this one and the pink at the base of the petals seems a bit lighter, but it is also double, which is significantly different from the single main stem flower that I clipped off. A third side branch is budding out.

This zinnia plant was an eye-opener for me, because I had been routinely discarding all single zinnias, even those with interesting looking flowers. Now I have revised my policy, to discard only ordinary looking singles and to give interesting looking single specimens a second chance by cutting off their single bloom and waiting to see what develops on their side branches. I spared three singles on that basis yesterday. I still choose not to develop strains of single zinnias. I don't consider scabiosa-derived zinnias as singles as long as they have some scabiosa-type central florets.

ZM

The yellow and pink flower you just posted is striking in appearance. It's good you kept the plant in the garden beyond the first flower! How will you use it in your breeding program?

I'm wondering if any of us can do something with the plants that will ensure that they produce the best flowers consistently? Fertilizer, or a support that might minimize mechanical stress? I don't know!

Earlier today, I mentioned the red flower on the plant that had earlier also produced a yellow and red flower. I went back to the garden and noticed close to the ground this flower pictured below, that was similar to the one I posted not too long ago:

Once I traced the branch, I found that it was on the same plant as the red flower I described in the last post:

So, I looked at the red flower more closely, and found that the bases of its petals were yellow!

So, I will still keep the seeds from this plant and see what happens..

I have several rows of cactus zinnias now that are reaching their peak:

and a small plot of Benary zinnias that may be used for crossing with other types. These plots are full of bumblebees, honeybees, and hummingbirds, as well as finches and a few swallowtails and monarchs. These are some of the reasoms they are such a pleasure to grow!

JG

"It's good you kept the plant in the garden beyond the first flower! How will you use it in your breeding program?"

I am selfing it and also pollinating it with pollen from other long, narrow petalled zinnias. I am also using some of its pollen on the orange specimen with long narrow petals, first pictured back on Thu, Jul 9, 09 at 2:12. I'll link it in here, so you don't have to go looking for it.

That plant has several blooms now, but so far none of them has produced pollen. Every now and then you get an apparently male-sterile zinnia. I like its long narrow petals (I think of them as aster flowered), which I think might look even better with bicolored or tricolored coloration. Actually, I would like a long petalled aster flowered strain like that in all zinnia colors.

"I'm wondering if any of us can do something with the plants that will ensure that they produce the best flowers consistently? Fertilizer, or a support that might minimize mechanical stress?"

I use my zinnia cages for support in high winds and as some protection against stray dogs. Your zinnias are close enough together to give each other a good measure of support in high winds. However, they might benefit from wider spacing of the plants, so that each plant has more room to branch out, and so that the lower leaves can get more sun.

Zinnias like full sun, plenty of nutrients, and well-drained soil. I had those conditions in my Maine garden, and my zinnias flourished there. But, unfortunately, where we are renting now is almost completely shaded and the soil is the opposite of well-drained. It's a challenge to keep my zinnias going here. I have used some foliar sugar feeding in an attempt to compensate for the shade, as well as Miracle-Gro but, for the first time, I am seeing a Powdery Mildew problem, and that is in mid summer! We had a very cool July, which contributed to the PM problem. Mildew is inhibited by full sun and high temperatures. I'm still using the potassium bicarbonate based GreenCure, but I am contemplating the use of a stronger mildewcide.

There are no Japanese Beetles here, but Flea Beetles are pandemic and much of my zinnia foliage (as well as tomato foliage and, of course, eggplant foliage) has been damaged by them. It's not practical to hand-pick flea beetles (although I have done some of that successfully -- flea beetles can jump and fly, but they aren't very smart). I'm considering using an insecticide against the flea beetles. They don't kill the plant, but they stunt it severely. And I hope that an eventual alternate rental can solve the shady garden problem. In a long term situation, I would consider purchasing some bulk sand as a soil amendment.

I think there is an opportunity to learn better ways to grow zinnias. You hear a lot about 6-inch, 7-inch, and even 8-inch diameter zinnia flowers. I have had only a few that exceeded 6 inches, so there probably is some cultural method of getting larger flowers. Boron nutrition for zinnias is tricky, and I hope to learn more about that.

Apparently there is some benefit to be had from silicon nutrition, and I have been experimenting with that some. That requires some care, because potassium silicate solution is very alkaline. Zinnias can take up quite a lot of silicon and use it in several ways, to increase cell wall strength and consequently plant structural strength. There have been reports that thicker cell walls from silicon contribute to disease resistance. I've used potassium silicate indoors, but not outdoors yet. Rice farmers depend on silicon-enriched fertilizers for stem strength.

ZM

It seems that you are well on your way to developing a strain of narrow-petalled zinnias! You must have gone through a number of generations, along with back-crossing and out-crossing to improve what you have. You have shown some beautiful flowers on these threads! But you probably also add specific goals as you go along and see particular traits you would like to incorporate in the flowers you have.

Addition of trace elements is needed when you have certain deficiencies in your soil, I think. You can go to an extension or co-op often to test for these things, although the cost might be high! I am tempted to do just that some time. The only test I have done here at home is pH. We have fairly alkaline soil here, because of all the limestone in the area. The soil here was tested at pH 7.5. It doesn't seem to affect the zinnias, but it could be a factor. Obvious problems are seen in the azaleas and dogwood we try to grow here. Plants like blueberries also really suffer.

Below is a somewhat battered, but different, cactus flower. It's the first I've seen with that particular whirligig pattern.

JG

I think I am a petal-shape person. I like something non-standard. So far my zinnias look pretty standard and I am a little disappointed, but maybe when I cross or self cross them, next year I will get something different.

JG, I like you unusual colored that you posted on 7/31. Maybe there is a mutation. Maybe you should take a cutting if you want to keep it. Like the cactus with whirligig effect too.

BTG, I like the square one and the candy cane. The candy has the candy cane effect plus unusal shape too.

ZM, I like the long petal one. One of my cactus looked a little like it last year but not quite the same. This year my giant cactus hasn't bloomed yet.

Mine aren't that interesting, but I am posting them here anyway:

The first three are from the whirligig mix. The first one is the one I showed last week. The petal arrangement was more interesting last week. Now it it a little common. The second one looks similar to the first but it looks like it is without carotenoid. The third one might be a mispackaging, but I guess we can't really know for sure.

The next three are from a Candy Cane mix! Either I completely mislabled them, or sometimes they are just unpredicatable? They don't look like Candy Cane to me... more like whirligig. They are the only 3 from Candy Cane mix that are in bloom now so I will have to wait for the rest to compare.

The Burpeerean Giant that showed a strong bicolor effect when it was new has now turned into mostly single color orange. There is still some bicolor effect but very lightly.

And today I cut almost all of my zinnia blooms and gave them out to friends. Not that I didn't like them, but due to some work needs, I will be out of town from Tue till about 8/16. Since I cannot stay around and enjoy them and all of them has additional flower buds, I thought I would start over again about 2 weeks later.

If I want to find seeds like this, any suggestions on what to look for?

Thanks,
Cameron

"But you probably also add specific goals as you go along and see particular traits you would like to incorporate in the flowers you have."

Yes, occasionally new zinnia characteristics just appear in an unplanned way. Recently I had a new bloom with extra wide petals, and this is its picture.

If those petals were a whole lot wider, that zinnia could look like a rose. I'm still concentrating on long, narrow petals in "airy" flowers, but as a sideline I will be looking for extra wide petals as well. It would be kind of neat to get a strain of zinnias that looked like roses. I'm selfing this one, as well as crossing it onto some scabiosa hybrids, with the idea that its wide petals might translate into larger central florets.

"Addition of trace elements is needed when you have certain deficiencies in your soil, I think. You can go to an extension or co-op often to test for these things, although the cost might be high!"

Yes, I think the cost might be high. Mostly commercial growers avail themselves of such services. I need to do some pH testing, both indoors and outdoors. I have some indicator papers. There are small amounts of trace elements in the nutrients that I use, including both the Better-Gro and the Miracle-Gro. But, as you alluded, pH can affect the availability of trace elements. There are ways to "read the foliage" to identify nutrient deficiencies. In the past, in my indoor zinnias, I have detected both calcium deficiencies and boron deficiencies by reading the foliage. There are several sources of information on how to read foliage to diagnose deficiencies. The book, Nutrient Deficiencies in Bedding Plants: A Pictorial Guide for Identification and Correction has a chapter on zinnia deficiencies, with a bunch of color pictures of specific zinnia deficiencies. I'm using it to attempt to diagnose the needs of my zinnias, both indoors and out.

Your "battered, but different cactus flower" looks very worthy of being a breeder. You have a lot of very special zinnias that don't appear in any catalog.

ZM

"I didn't buy any orange zinnia seeds, but I have a few of these soft orange zinnias... If I want to find seeds like this, any suggestions on what to look for?"

Most mixtures of zinnias include some orange zinnias, but for an inexpensive commercial source of orange cactus flowered zinnia seeds for landscaping use, Zinnia Inca is one choice. For orange dahlia flowered zinnias, one choice is the Orange Benary's Giant. I am sure there are other orange zinnia options, but those are the ones that come to mind right now.

Another suggestion is to save seeds from the orange zinnias that you now have. Tie a piece of yarn on your favorite specimens, or in some other way tag them for later. That way, you can become your own breeder of orange zinnias that suit your taste. You could just let the bees and gravity do your pollination, or you could self-pollinate your favorite oranges, or make crosses between your favorite oranges, for a possibly better orange breed. Zinnias have a lot of different shades and tints of orange, as well as different plant habits and flowerforms, so you could develop several different orange strains.

ZM

Brock, your square zinnia is definitely different. Wouldn't it be something if you could develop a strain of square zinnias? That would be novel! You could call it "Spongebob." The pink candy cane is pretty. I don't think I've seen any like that.

Dave, it's good to see you are getting flowers now! The whirligigs are good examples, and the cactus is a really nice flower. You have some plants to work with now! I like the whirligig with red edges (the rest is yellow and red). It could be an interesting goal to develop picotee (edged) petals in zinnias. That pack of Candy Canes had to be mislabeled! They really do look like whirligigs.

Cameron, I'm now growing out a pack of the Inca zinnias that ZM has mentioned above. They are the orange ones in the photo here:

I think they could offer some of what you're looking for..

HC, the battered cactus I pictured above is not related to July Bonnet. For the time, I will call it "Cactigig." I was just thinking how it would be really an interesting project to develop a whirligig pattern (that is-- magenta in the center, followed by a band of red, and then, with yellow-tipped petals)in a scabious zinnia. So, with that, you would see magenta florets in the center, and the guard petals showing bands of red and yellow. What a flower!

ZM, a wide-petalled zinnia strain resembling roses would be quite a contrast to your narrow-petalled flowers. They would look like roses. The widest petals I've seen in zinnias, considering them all, would be in the Peruvian zinnias, but they are hardly multi-petalled, so don't know if a possible cross would be helpful.

As I said before, two-toned cactus flowers are rare in my garden. I saw two today, out of many.

JG

That's a pretty flower. It looks like it is short, like a Swizzle, but with a different color pattern. The many petals make it interesting. Does it have some white tips on the petals? (looks like it does..)

JG

Those petals do look a calendula, except for the color, of course. It's encouraging that it had a volunteer in its heritage, and that it was better this year. I hope you save seeds from it so that we can see what the offspring of "Baby Doll" will look like.

JG,

That yellow based pink cactus is my favorite of the two bicolored cactus zinnias. I think it would be a good breeder. And a massed bed of them would look great.

ZM

"...how is this one progressing? Are you using it as a breeder?"

This bloom seems to be progressing OK, in a rather advanced stage of maturity. I took this picture yesterday.

I am using it as a breeder, because I much admire the look of the flower when it is relatively "new". No side branches are in bloom yet. I have been pollinating it mostly with pollen from itself. It is possible that the lower older petals might have some viable green seeds. I'll check them in a day or two and, if I find anything viable, I will plant them inside as part of my Fall "crop".

ZM

The cactus zinnias here are doing well, and I was able to create my husband a nice birthday bouquet. Everyone in our family is a summer person, so they all get zinnias on their birthday! Anyway, there was a pretty nice yellow zinnia in the group I picked.

I have a row of Enchantress zinnias growing outdoors. Most of them look like the one I photographed today, below:

I think there will be enough July Bonnet seeds for me to make a small plot next year. In general, the best three offspring this year tend to be a balanced orange and red, mostly red, or mostly yellow:

JG

I used all my '08 seed this year, and was surprised that nearly all the seed I had germinated. So, will see what happens next year with this summer's seed..

JG

"The black veil makes it look like it's in mourning."

It does sort of look like a black veil. But I need the nets to keep the bees from stealing the pollen and to keep the birds from stealing the seeds. I've been thinking about redesigning the nets to reduce wind drag and to keep them on better during winds. As it is, I have to pick up a number of nets after any windy period and reinstall the nets. I'm also looking for an alternative to the black yarn for joining the netting. It seems unnecessarily heavy.

I think I will stick with the "black honeycomb" open netting for the time being, even though sweat bees can enter through the open mesh. I've watched the sweat bees in action, and they don't take a lot of pollen, nothing like the big loads of pollen that bumblebees can carry.

I have a tighter mesh of fabric that sweat bees couldn't go through, but I hesitate to use it because it would have much higher wind drag. And it would nearly hide the flower from view and cut off airflow around the flower. I am breeding for open flower forms that give good airflow through the petals, so it would be self defeating to enclose those flowers in a tight fabric mesh. If I come up with a satisfactory new net design, I will post a picture of it here.

ZM

I like the July Bonnet offspring in the left-hand picture best. It looks like it has several of the July Bonnet traits. I'm hoping that July Bonnet will reappear next year

ZM

Kelli, ZM has posted several very good descriptions of cross-pollination, the last, I believe, was on May 25, this year, "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 10":

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/annuals/msg0402420127804.html

ZM is our "moderator" here and probably has the most experience in crossing zinnias, with very nice results!

All, and Cameron, I am finding that the Inca zinnias are an interesting type, showing many variations on the orange zinnia theme. Here are several:

JG

"How exactly do you cross-pollinate / hybridize?"

JG is right that the most recent description of zinnia cross pollination techniques was on Mon, May 25, 09 at 11:36 in Part 10 of this message series, in which we described the transfer of pollen using a pointed artist's brush. The artist's brush is particularly handy when you have "piles" of pollen available in the zinnia florets.

There are other ways to transfer zinnia pollen. Frequently, when you are working outdoors, the wind and possibly insects may have scattered some of the pollen from the florets. When that happens, I use a small pair of forceps to "pick" a floret and use it as a brush to apply what pollen is left in it. This picture shows a floret being picked by a forceps. You could use tweezers or Twissors (tweezers with scissors-like handles) to handle the floret as well.

Then, still holding the floret in the forceps, you rub the floret on the stigmas of the zinnia that you have chosen as your female.

The stigmas are the yellow forked "antennas" at the base of the zinnia petals. As we mentioned previously, if a stigma is successfully pollinated, it will wither and die within a day or two. If the pollination was unsuccessful, the stigma will remain fresh and yellow and receptive for a week or more, so you have several opportunities to pollinate each stigma.

I like the forceps for working outdoors, particularly if there is a little wind, because the forceps have a clever little locking mechanism that holds the floret even if you forget and relax your grip on the forceps.

Unlike the forceps, the tweezers and Twissors both require you to continue to maintain some pressure to hold the floret. I have used both tweezers and Twissors successfully to pollinate zinnias, but I have come to prefer the forceps and artist's brushes for the conveniences they offer.

" I'd love to try this for next year."

Since you are zone 6-7, there is a good chance that there is still time to try it this year. You could make a fall planting of a sampling of zinnias now and they could bloom in 6 to 8 weeks, to let you experiment with cross pollination. There is even a chance that some of the seeds from your crosses could mature enough to be viable for planting next Spring. If a frost was threatening, you could harvest some plump green seeds and dry them indoors. I have successfully grown zinnias indoors from dried green seeds. We have previously discussed green seeds as a way of speeding things up. It would be great if you could start next year off with a crop of zinnia hybrids of your own making. Then you could make crosses between your own hybrids, and get some really crazy mixed up zinnias. You can get more than one generation of zinnias in a year, and make some fast progress.

ZM

These past days I have been in seed-collecting mode. A good part of the main garden is past its prime, and the finches are quickly grabbing seeds, so I am in competition with them! Other patches are very pretty, and I'm taking flowers as they mature for seeds and also trying to keep them so they they continue blooming.

I have two "microgardens" now with non-violaceae flowers. Will just collect seeds from these. I'm pretty sure my tenuifolia and peruviana species did indeed cross last year, as I have many flowers that are intermediate in size, while the pure species flowers are consistent in size.

Like HC, I have included the 'Highlights' cultivar in with the marylandicas, and you can see them among other Profusions below. And I agree with you, HC, I see their advantages. They have plenty of branching, and they don't seem to be prone to the brown spotting and mildew that the violaceae are. It's amazing how one plant can spread out so much! And, like HC's, my photo doesn't do the bright colors justice.

Last year, it was "July Bonnet" for me, and I continue to raise the progeny and collect seeds, of which I have many! My flower of the year now is "Extreme Roll." It seems to have even more needle-like petals than a typical cactus, and unlike the typical cactus flower, the petals are rolled upward rather than down and under. The second flower I am getting on the plant shows a little Whirligig heritage with varying hues toward the center. I think the net I placed on this flower may have spread out the petals to expose the colors.

JG

"The one plant I had last year crept along the ground like a snake. It never branched and no part of the plant was erect. It never produced a single bloom and most likely died because the other zinnias shaded it out. I suspect it died of sheer embarrassment."

I have on occasion had a zinnia do that same kind of vining thing. It could be desirable if you were trying to breed a strain of zinnias for hanging baskets, but I am not, so I never gave a "vining" zinnia breeder status, despite their unusual plant habit. I wonder if that prostrate habit is environmental or genetic or possibly some kind of unusual disease.

Your Burpee Highlight Hybrid this year looks pretty good, with a nice looking plant. Too bad your digital camera didn't capture the yellow color, but I have also had sunlight "wash colors out" to a whitish color in my pictures. I still intend to get a better camera, but I may have to delay that a few months because of our economy.

I wonder if your Burpee Highlight Hybrid zinnia is a true F1 Hybrid in the Burpee Pinwheel series or if it is actually just a tetraploided Violacea x Angustifolia hybrid like a Profusion or Zahara. It might be a good idea to save seeds from it (if there are any) to see what kind of results you get. It might be possible to cross it with Profusions or Zaharas.

ZM

I have to admit I am envious of your "Extreme Roll" specimen. Your remarkable zinnia gene pool is always revealing new surprises, and Extreme Roll seems worthy of starting a new interesting strain with a flower form of its own. The bicolor/tricolor effect is an added bonus, even if it is partially concealed by the petal roll.

I think you are correct to include the Burpee Highlight Hybrids with the Marylandicas. We tend to give Sakata's Profusions credit for starting the Marylandicas, but I think it was actually Burpee with their Pinwheels who made the first commercial introduction.

This is a picture of a new Scabiosa-based recombinant with the "Echinacea flowered" flowerform.

I hope to grow a lot more zinnias next year and do a significant amount of cross pollination between the Echinacea flowered examples in order to get a diverse but "true" strain. There is room for a lot of improvement in the Echinacea flowered zinnias.

ZM

That scabiosa-type flower has a beautiful color and form. It always amazes me how much diversity there is among the scabiosas, considering central florets (size and arrangement) and the guard petals. The colors seem to parallel those of the Benaries, although it seems that you have come up with some nice bi-colored flowers as well.

I have a feeling that developing a strain of zinnias that yields nothing but the scabiosa form will be a challenge!
And I say that because of the limited success of the commercial breeders in doing this. I'm anxious to see how you fare!

I do think the marylandicas include the Burpee 'Highlight.' I have seen that Burpee sells both Pinwheels and Profusions, so I wonder if somehow the "hybrid" was developed from either or both. Incidentally, the yellow flower of the Stokes Zahara series (also marylandicas) that I'm also growing looks very much like the Burpee 'Highlight.'

One thing to note is that the Profusions last year gave me a good number of seeds that I planted this year, and successfully got a number of plants with the same distribution of color, form, etc. And, this year, these plants are producing many seeds (which are apparently too small and uninteresting to the finches).

JG

One other thing I wanted to let you all know, if you haven't already seen them in the new HPS Seed catalog, are the two new marylandica seeds they are offering:

Zahara Starlight Rose:
Zahara Starlight Rose

and no doubt, similar to the 'Highlight,' the Profusion Yellow Hybrid:
Profusion Yellow Hybrid

They mistakenly call both of these "angustifolia."

JG

JG, good luck with the 'Extreme Roll'. A shaggy bicolor is what I most hope to achieve (for now).
I want to know if your 'Peruvian' X 'Red Spider' crosses are producing viable seed. That would suggest that the cross is not sterile after the F1.

I'm curious as to what 'Highlights' actually is. I can't find that stated in the literature. I think commercial zinnia breeders know scads that they are not making public.

I truly enjoy these threads. I look forward to see everyone's successes and to entertain our ponderings.

"I'm curious as to what 'Highlights' actually is. I can't find that stated in the literature. I think commercial zinnia breeders know scads that they are not making public."

I agree. Burpee is owned by Ball, who sell the yellow Zahara, but if you compare the shorter rounder petals of Yellow Zahara with the somewhat longer, narrower petals of Burpee's Highlight Hybrid, it appears very probable that the two are different zinnia cultivars. And Burpee claims Highlight Hybrid as an exclusive, so I think it probably is.

I do tend to doubt that Highlight Hybrid is actually an F1 hybrid, however. The Marylandicas are of hybrid origin, but because of chromosome doubling, they are actually open pollinated and, in my opinion, it is mislabeling to refer to them as F1 hybrids.

You could cross two Marylandicas to produce a legitimate F1 hybrid Marylandica, but I doubt that has been done in any commercially available zinnia. The Zahara Starlight Rose that JG linked to looks like a likely starting point for a race of bicolor Marylandicas. I have yet to see a Marylandica that really "turns me on", but that one comes close. Crossing Zahara Starlight Rose and Burpee's Highlight Hybrid could produce some interesting results, particularly in the F2 generation.

Incidentally, it should be possible to start with a Scabiosa x Angustifolia cross and produce scabiosa flowered Marylandicas. I think that might actually happen commercially in the future.

Thanks for the compliment on my photos. I enjoy photographing zinnias almost as much as raising them. Next year I hope to get a digital SLR for much better control of my picture making. I always have trouble controlling focus and depth of field and my outdoors pictures usually have a problem with wind moving the flowers around while I am trying to take their picture. I hope to figure out how to make a "garden friendly" portable windscreen to help with that. I rarely make a zinnia picture that I am entirely satisfied with, but that also holds true for my zinnias themselves, so I just enjoy the quest.

I have to say that your cell phone pictures are amazingly good, considering that they are from a phone. It would be hard to hold you back if you had an actual camera. But your phone pictures are a big help and much better than a simple verbal description. As they say, "A picture is worth a thousand words." That holds true even for phone pictures. Keep those phone pictures coming.

ZM

I agree with ZM. HC, I like to see what you're getting through your photos. I look forward to hearing of your work toward a shaggy bicolor! Also, as you mentioned, I will keep seeds of some of those suspected peruviana-tenuifolia crosses and see if they will grow. These little "hybrids" are bearing lots of fat litte seeds! I haven't tried, although I guess I could, plant a few as there are still plenty of warm days left, and at least I could check on the germination..

And, ZM, I agree with HC, your pictures are very nice and definitely show us the beauty of zinnias--yours in particular! Some of the colors in your flowers are so rich, and the slender form of some of them is unique.

I have a question for all of you reading the thread.

Every year, my zinnias, especially the first ones planted in May, begin to look pretty ratty--thanks to brown spotting and decimation of the flowers by the birds. Now they are a miserable sight! Has anyone done a severe cutback of zinnias this time of year? As in four foot high plants being cut down to two feet or so? I have cut back annuals like geraniums, petunias, and pansies this way, but never zinnias! I am sorely tempted to try this in the hopes of getting somewhat a renewal of the plants for September and October, but would like to hear your opinions and experience in this here!

JG

But my zinnias are doing fine. I was welcomed by 200+ zinnias. The only thing is they are not that interesting. Cactus are like cactus. Giant doubles are ok but not special. Whirligig have some interesting patterns. Liliput I don't like them. Will not grow them next year. Thumbelina is ok. I like the petal shapes.

Since I don't have anything specific, I am thinking just letting them open pollinate and then collect the seeds from the mother plants that I like and see if I get anything itneresting next year. Perhaps I will cross some whirligig to thumbelina to see if I can the mini zinnia with the petals that I like but some color variation.

Will show pictures later. I haven't taken them yet. So many chores to catch up after being away for 3 weeks.

One question: what do you use to label the crosses? I have done indoor hybridizing of amaryllis, and for indoor a simple of piece paper and pen or pencil will work. But this is outdoor. I suppose it doesn't have to be permanent as it is going to be a month or two only, but it has withstand some rain at least, right?

Will card stock written with pencil, tied with rubber band on the plants, work?

TIA!

JG, I have never cut back zinnias to see how they would do, so I'm of no help. I had a couple that split in a storm and now the horizontal splits have vertical growth that looks fine. In spite of this success, if I were intentionally cutting out some part of the plant, I would try to keep them symmetrical for stability's sake.

KForRest, I have one plant that started in April that still has not produced a single bloom.

JG, did the little yellow tentacles on your apetalous male sterile retract once they were fertilized? I have one that is from a 'Swizzle' cross. Its appearance has not changed at all in three weeks.

"One question: what do you use to label the crosses? I have done indoor hybridizing of amaryllis, and for indoor a simple of piece paper and pen or pencil will work. But this is outdoor. I suppose it doesn't have to be permanent as it is going to be a month or two only, but it has withstand some rain at least, right? "

My experience with paper and cardboard labels is that they do tend to disintegrate in the rain, wind, and weather. I now use a green VELCRO® material marked with a Permanent Black Sharpie® marker, with a short coded identification, as in this picture:

You could put a separate label on each bloom, but I usually just assign a code ID to a whole plant. In the picture above, the letter "C" indicates this year, 2009. The "3" indicates this was the third breeder chosen this year. Last year all of my codes began with "B", in 2007 it was "A" and in 2006 the codes were just a number starting with 1 for the first selected breeder (a large buff colored Burpeeana). I keep a garden journal that contains as much detailed information about each particular code as I wish. The green Velcro® is available at many garden centers, as a means of fastening a plant stem to a supporting rod. It is also available at online stores.

The green Velcro comes in a narrow roll and in a wide roll. The narrow is a bit too narrow for me, so I buy the wide and cut it to suit my purposes. I write on the "smooth" darker green "hooks" side, rather than on the lighter "loops" side. The Velcro labels have been working well for me for years. And they seem to be completely weatherproof.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

Today I took a closer look at my zinnias. I think it is not as bad/negative as I sounded previously. I do have some color patterns that I like. The petal shapes are kind of standard though. Maybe by crossing or even self-crossing I might get some interesting petal shapes next year too.

But these have been opened for a while before I came back from out of town. Some of them look a little over the peak already, so I am not going to do netting, hand pollinating on these (unless more flowers came later). I will just label them and collect the seeds for next year.

The last last one is not that exciting. I just added it in for symetrical reasoning since I ran out of pictures. :-)

That last one looks like a Marylandica. I would use the top right one as a breeder, although I must admit that the singles show off the bicolor petals better. The middle one has a particularly cheerful color combination.

The stripes are interesting, but I have quit growing them out of concern that they will "take over" my gene pool. I had two striped zinnias appear in recombinants this year, although 2007 was the last year in which I planted stripes. The recombinant stripes were cactus flowered. It was originally my intent to get a strain of striped spider flowered zinnias, but I have since abandoned that goal.

From a purely statistical standpoint, the more zinnias you grow, the better your chances are of finding something "good". And, of course, "good", like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

ZM

"Every year, my zinnias, especially the first ones planted in May, begin to look pretty ratty--thanks to brown spotting and decimation of the flowers by the birds. Now they are a miserable sight! Has anyone done a severe cutback of zinnias this time of year?"

Like holtzclaw, I have never cut back zinnias to see how they would do, not in the sense of trimming a hedge or "cutting them back." I have removed dead or diseased leaves and even branches, for both cosmetic and therapeutic reasons, but that is rather labor intensive. I would suggest discarding zinnia plants that look bad, unless they are breeders with hand-crossed seeds on them. Even in that case, I would consider saving the green seeds and discarding the plants. For a really choice plant, I might consider "rescuing" a cutting or cuttings from it.

Incidentally, I now discard my zinnia plants into the garbage, out of concern that diseases might survive in a compost pile. A compost pile has to get pretty hot to make it safe.

ZM

Incidentally, as a grower of Inca, you might be amused, as I was, that they now offer a zinnia called Pinca.

ZM

Dave, I bet one of the first things you did when you got home was to see how the garden was faring! Your zinnias look pretty. And I agree with ZM, that last flower looks very like a marylandica (Profusion or Pinwheel or Zahara, etc.). Just by letting your zinnias self or be crossed randomly through insect pollination, I think you will get some interesting flowers from the seeds you collect this year, in addition to making specific crosses. All will contribute to a more diverse gene pool to work with.

HC, I pretty much ignored the first male sterile plant I had, and didn't notice what happened with the flower. Male steriles are fine when you know what stock they come from, but I had no idea what sorts of flower characteristics would be inherited from that plant! But, I do have a second one now, and after looking at it closely, I can say that the ends of the pistils where the stigmas are (which are ususully sticky or rough to help collect pollen) have died and are blackened while the rest of the structure looks well and alive-- probably then they would no longer be functional.

BTG, I like your zinnias and their visitors! That little frog must have been a surprise. A year or two ago, I found a similar little frog nestled in the back part of a day lily! I can't help but wonder if they don't use the flower as a place to ambush insect visitors!

ZM, your instructional photos are very clear and helpful in illustrating labeling plants- good photography! The velcro labels that you had mentioned earlier work extremely well, I found. With respect to a major cut-back, I may try it with a row or two of plants.. For some reasons, maybe the intense heat and amount of rain we've received this summer, my zinnias have matured and aged faster than usual. The ones planted earliest are now at the stage they would usually be in October. I may let the cut plant material dry, then burn it--will see. I find I get the hottest compost pile when I add lots of freshly mown grass and horse manure, but really, I seldom do that, so the pile is relatively "cool."

JG

Most of them that have the mildew are those that I am not interested anyway, so should I just let the plants die on their own? Or will the mildew spread on other (zinnia) plants as well?

Thanks.

"Most of them that have the mildew are those that I am not interested anyway, so should I just let the plants die on their own? Or will the mildew spread on other (zinnia) plants as well?"

In my opinion, it's better to remove and discard the mildew-infected plants that you don't want, than to just let them die on their own in place. Because, as they are dying from mildew, the mildew is producing more spores.

For zinnias that you are interested in, there are several sprays that can prevent and kill mildew. I am experimenting with several, including Ortho's RosePride Disease Control Concentrate. It's active ingredient is Triforine 6.5% and you dilute it with one tablespoon of concentrate per gallon of water. You need to repeat the spraying every 7 to 10 days. It seems to be very effective at killing mildew.

I am going to try Bayer Advanced Disease Control for Roses, Flowers & Shrubs concentrate. Its active ingredient is Tebuconazole 2.9% and you dilute it 1½ tablespoons per gallon of water and spray it every 7 to 14 days for a total of three applications.

I have tried Bayer Advanced All-In-One Rose & Flower Care concentrate (3 systemic products in 1). It includes soluble 9-14-9 fertilizer, Tebuconazole for diseases, and Imidacloprid for insects. You don't have to spray it because you can simply dilute it and pour it on the base of the plant where it can be absorbed by the roots. For my zinnias I use the "flowerbed" dilution of 2 tablespoons per gallon. Roses get a much stronger dose of 4 tablespoons in a quart for one rose plant. I also apply the flowerbed dilution as a generous spray to my zinnias, allowing some to drip onto the root zone. It seems to be solving my odd flea-beetle problem, as well as preventing new mildew.

I don't think any of the fungicides, including the systemic ones, can cure existing mildew damage, but they can arrest it and protect new growth.

I also plan to give Spectracide's Immunox® Multi-Purpose Fungicide concentrate a try. Its active ingredient is Myclobutanil 1.55%

The ironic thing is that in Maine's long full-sun days I never had any mildew on my zinnias, except for an occasional spot or two just before our killing freeze. But here in Kansas, in a shady, cool garden, mildew is an ongoing challenge. Since we run the air conditioner, it is somewhat cool inside and I also have to fight mildew indoors. Well, they say that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I'm not sure that applies for zinnias, though.

ZM

I spent all day yesterday rearranging my outer gardens to make room for zinnias next year.

I have been testing deer resistance for the zinnias and my deer herd. (that's my gardening niche- deer resistant gardener).

I planted single zinnias here and there along the edges of the meadow garden, the paths and places where the deer come up everyday. They've pinched back a few, but never tasted the same plant twice, so I have nice blooms in the deer resistant garden. September is the real test when their food supply dwindles. If they continue to ignore the zinnias, then I will do a mass planting in the outer gardens next year. My fenced cottage garden is overflowing with zinnias!

If this keeps up, I may replace my perennial echinacea with zinnias! LOL

Thanks to all!
Cameron

I will be very interested to hear how your zinnias continue to fare when exposed to deer. Fortunately that isn't a problem for me here in Wellsville, Kansas. The most common creatures here are dogs, squirrels, and robins.

That's a really pretty purple zinnia. It makes me want to cross it with something. I would like to get some really dark purple big zinnias next year. There is a new Wine Colored Benary's Giant zinnia that I plan to grow, just for its dark color, and to cross it with other colors, including the Purple Benary's Giants, as well as other dark-colored zinnias. I also like it that the Benary's Giants have strong stems -- I would like to transfer that trait to my hybrids.

We have a Black Walnut tree that dominates part of the backyard here, and I was concerned that my zinnias would be harmed by the chemical called Juglone that is released by Black Walnut trees. Juglone is a natural herbicide for many plants, which gives Walnuts a competitive edge.

When I was a kid on the farm in Oklahoma, we had a Black Walnut grove along the East side of our farm and our Alfalfa was very lush right up to a boundary about 50 feet from the grove. Essentially nothing would grow under the Walnuts except for a few wild Poke Berries, which seemed immune to the walnut toxin. I was delighted to discover here in Kansas that my zinnias are reasonably tolerant to the Juglone. It would be great if zinnias can also survive in the presence of deer. Deer can be a very serious pest.

ZM

All of my zinnias are Benary's Giant. The stems are strong, tall and the foliage is lush and green.

The hummingbirds are taking a lot of time on the zinnias while seeking out the salvias. I have salvia guaranitica 'Black & Blue' and salvia 'Mystic Spires' and salvia greggii planted with the zinnias. Great combinations.

Thanks,
Cameron

From time to time I see ants on my zinnia blooms and I always wonder what they are doing there. There is a small ant in this picture:

I really need to study up on ants, because there are many species of them. The ants on my zinnias in Maine were definitely there to herd aphids for their "honedew". The ant in the picture above is about half the size of the Maine aphid-herder ants. I also suspected that some ants in Maine had their dens at the bases of my zinnias in order to graze aphids on the roots of my zinnias. My guess is that these small Kansas ants are merely looking for zinnia nectar, but I am not certain of that. So far I haven't caught them in any mischief.

ZM

Maybe that ant just wants to get up close to a really beautiful flower! (He'd better be careful--I see the traces of a spider web in that photo..) That is really a gorgeous flower, and it looks like you may actually have two of them!! Zinnia vinca? Probably not! ;-))

Thanks for the reference to all the mildew treatments. I bought the Bayer Advanced All-in-One Rose and Flower Care at Lowe's, and gave selected plants the suggested flowerbed treatment, sprinkling diluted solution over the leaves and stems. Today, I'll just apply some solution to the ground below the plants. It's late in the season, but I really am hoping to keep the diseases at bay until I can get a number of flowers and seeds. Also, I have some patches of flowers in the front yard that I'd like to keep healthy and pretty for landscaping.

JG

I like the Bayer Advanced All-In-One Rose and Flower Care because it protects against a wide variety of insects and diseases. I applied six gallons of the mixture to my outside zinnias last evening, mainly by pouring some of it in their watering spikes. Today I will spritz some of it on their foliage. It seems to be stopping the Flea Beetle damage, although it doesn't cure the existing damage.

I had originally intended to use some of it on my indoor zinnias, but the container says specifically not to use it on container grown plants, indoors or outdoors. I asked Bayer Advanced about this at their website and they responded by email,

"We would not suggest using the Bayer Advanced All-In-One Rose and Flower Care concentrate on any potted or container plants since we cannot guarantee the results. There are two problems you can have with this type of application. The first is that you could lose the product and water mixture through the drainage holes at the bottom of the pot. Since the roots are restricted there is also a chance it could burn the roots and damage the plant. We would suggest using the Bayer Advanced 3-in-1 Insect, Disease, and Mite Control. This product is a mild systemic. When applied, it is absorbed into the plant."

I'll keep an eye open for the Bayer Advanced 3-in-1 Insect, Disease, and Mite Control that they recommended, although the attraction for me for the Bayer Advanced All-In-One Rose and Flower Care was that it could be applied as a root drench without the need to spray the plants. For zinnias growing indoors during cold Winter weather, it can be very inconvenient to have to spray them. When it is bitter cold outside, taking the zinnias outside to spray them could result in freeze damage in very few minutes, if not seconds. And I don't like the idea of spraying anything toxic indoors.

This is another zinnia picture that just happened to have an ant on it, although I was not aware of that when I took the picture yesterday.

It is a little harder to see, since it is on the edge of a petal near the center of the bloom. It seems to be the same kind of ant that I have been seeing here. They don't seem to be doing any harm.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

"He'd better be careful--I see the traces of a spider web in that photo..."

The funny thing is, I don't notice those spider webs when I take the pictures. There is a spider web in this picture that I took a couple of days ago, and I didn't notice a web when I snapped the photo.

Although I have found a few Flower Spiders on my zinnias, waiting to capture unwary pollinator insects, I haven't positively identified them as the source of those webs. Besides, I think the Flower Spiders just pounce upon their prey, without catching them in a web. I could be wrong about that. Guess I need to read up on spiders as well as ants.

Occasionally, when I first walk into the garden, I will walk unknowingly into a long single strand of web, with no obvious association to a spider. I think maybe some of the spiders in our backyard are pretending to be Spider Man by shooting web strands around. Maybe not.

ZM

I think we've all noticed that a zinnia garden is a whole micro-biome in itself! My main garden is full of finches, cardinals (this is the first year I've seen a lot of them in the garden), sparrows, preying mantises, Japanese beetles, assassin bugs, ants, frogs, toads, and all kinds of butterflies. The spiders are everywhere! I notice them especially when I collect seeds. I cut off the whole flowers of the zinnias, then come back to our picnic table to separate out the seeds. If I were an arachnologist, I would be in heaven! There are so many kinds of spiders to be found in the flowers! I've not been bitten--the spiders are just anxious to go elsewhere when I dismantle the flowers. I have yet to see the big black and yellow garden spiders that will probably show up soon. In my garden, those are the ones that make the biggest webs.

For anyone who reads this thread and is looking to set up a bird and butterfly garden, I can say you are 99% of the way there if you have a plot of zinnias!

ZM, I like the color of that last flower you've shown. I do love red zinnias!

JG

I had a flower spider web earlier this year, but it was at a bad place between a tomato cage and a ceder tree and it kept getting knocked down. Flower spiders are spectacularly large and your picture with zinnia blooms in the background is quite symbolic.

I also like red zinnias, although I can't say that I have a favorite color. Zinnias come in a wide variety of colors and I like them all. I took this picture in dappled sunlight. It is sort of red.

The camera that I use seems to "wash out" full sun exposures, and that happened here. I keep saying that I am going to get a better camera, but the date for getting it seems to always retreat into the future. But I'm still saying it.

In the meantime, I will plant a "Fall crop" of zinnias indoors, which may wind up staying indoors. I plan to start these in 3½-inch square pots, because my seedlings so quickly outgrow the 2½-inch pots. I won't be able to plant as many that way, but at least I won't have the embarrassment of zinnias blooming in 2½-inch pots. The zinnias that I transplanted into the garden from 2½-inch pots did much poorer than the ones that were in 5-inch pots. This is still a learning process for me.

ZM

Beautiful flower! It looks like a really rich brick red! Nice slender, twisting petals. Your collection is outstanding.

After a sprinkling over selected plants, as well as a ground watering with the diluted "Bayer Advanced All-in-One Rose and Flower Care," I can see that this product is working well in stopping progression of mildew. Surrounding plants are turning white while the treated plants remain green (thus far, very satisfactory--I'm not a vendor or sales rep, just a gardener who sees the chemial work!). It must be a fairly potent treatment, as the bottle instructions suggested using every six weeks, which is consistent with the recommendation not to use in containers--it seems like a single hit, quick absorption, and chase with water is all that's needed.

I'm really hoping now that flower and seed production continue, so I will be able to work with particular offspring next year.

JG

"I can see that this product is working well in stopping progression of mildew... It must be a fairly potent treatment, as the bottle instructions suggested using every six weeks..."

Both the fungicide (tebuconazole) and the insecticide (imidacloprid) in Bayer's All-In-One Rose and Flower Care are systemic, and each can be absorbed through both the leaves and the roots. So pouring some of it over the foliage gives a quick absorption through the leaves for immediate protection. The runoff drench that goes into the soil is retained by the soil in the root zone for an extended period of time. During that time, the roots continue to absorb it and replenish it in the sapstream. That has the advantage of sending protection to new growth over a period of weeks. Even the seeds that are formed during that time could contain some of the protection.

This recent bloom has down-hanging petals, which is a zinnia flower form that I have seen before.

I hope to get a strain with that flower form, so it is a breeder.

ZM

I think last year both of us may have had that down-turned type of zinnia. I like the way yours this year has the nice lighter center as it matures. That kind of flower is reminiscent of a coneflower, but prettier! I like the consistency of petal size, too.

I am still collecting seeds and trying to figure out my strategy for next year. I am tempted not to buy the commercial seeds at all next year, but to try and plant out the seeds that have been generated in my garden this year-- to see what new traits or combinations of those turn up. Seed collecting has been interesting but tedious too. I wonder if the ray flowers don't have a much better chance of crossing with flowers on other plants (when unprotected) while the disc flowers are more likely to be selfed just because of the location of the pollen. I notice the seeds of the disc flowers generally are fatter and shorter than the flatter, longer seeds from the ray flowers. I was surprised this year when some of the seeds I collected from last year's July Bonnet actually germinated. They were dark colored, but very flat and seemingly underdeveloped.

The flowers of my "Extreme Roll" plant are still blooming--each flower has subtle differences of shade from the others.

JG

" I am tempted not to buy the commercial seeds at all next year, but to try and plant out the seeds that have been generated in my garden this year-- to see what new traits or combinations of those turn up."

I have the same temptation, since I have a backlog of seeds from last year and before. My limited growing space this year kept me from doing the big plantout that I needed to do. Still, I think I will grow some commercial seeds next year, just to expand my gene pool. I think I am going to plant some Benary's Giants and inter-cross with them to get more stem strength. I had a couple of "wimpy" zinnias this year that almost acted like they wanted to vine. Maybe I need to feed some potassium silicate for stem strength.

"I wonder if the ray flowers don't have a much better chance of crossing with flowers on other plants (when unprotected) while the disc flowers are more likely to be selfed just because of the location of the pollen. "

I think that is almost certainly true. The structure of the typical disk flower forces the stigma to pass through internal anthers before emerging from the floret. That is true of the disk florets of the scabiosa types as well, unless you do as I sometimes do and "surgically" open the floret to expose the stigma for pollen application. As you have noted, zinnias have several types of disk floret seeds, including some shiny black ones that remind me of the black oil seeds of some sunflowers.

"The flowers of my "Extreme Roll" plant are still blooming--each flower has subtle differences of shade from the others. "

I also continue to notice differences from one flower to another on the same zinnia plant, and wonder what is going on there. The flowers of your "Extreme Roll" plant are great. I notice some multiple colorations in the photo. I am tempted to upsample your last Extreme Roll picture to 986 pixels wide to give it the exposure it deserves. I'm hoping you can produce an Extreme Roll strain in a range of colors. And, of course, I am hoping that something like July Bonnet will resurface for you next year.

So far I haven't gotten any spectacular bicolor or tricolor spider flowered zinnias, but I am seeing a few bicolored cactus flowered specimens, like this one:

Its coloration is rather subtle, but it is showing the effects of a Whirligig or Zig Zag ancestor. I'm using it as a breeder. Sometimes specimens similar to this show up in commercial cactus flowered mixtures. A spider web on the left side of the picture is invisible, except for a couple of white points.

Fall is definitely here, with cooler temperatures and wetter weather. Hopefully tomorrow I will spray some more to prevent mildew and other foliage diseases on my breeders.

ZM

The pastel zinnias you have shown are a departure from the usual bold, pure colors that many people associate with zinnias, but I think they are really pretty, especially with the more refined petals you have been breeding for. Usually you don't think of zinnias as graceful, delicate flowers, but I think if they were available, many gardeners would want to have them.

Your goals are difficult to achieve, because they take a lot of time and planning, but it looks like you are well on your way! You are getting some beautiful flowers through your breeding activities.

I think my method will be to grow out many plants, then look for mutants or recombinants that are different, and then hope that future generations might give me similar plants through inbreeding. My goals are kind of open-ended, with the hope that random events will give me something interesting!

I'm not sure which approach is more difficult! But you are very close to getting some very nice flowers. I guess a trick for you will be get them to reproduce predictably..

I am going to continue not only to grow tall zinnias from my collected seeds, but also the shorter zinnias--the marylandicas, tenuifolias, peruvianas, haageanas, and angustifolias--also from collected seed. Who knows, I may get a hybrid that is interesting! I'm pretty sure the tenuifolias and peruvianas from last year hybridized--I need to find an expert who can tell me if that happens readily (probably does!). Anyway, I will grow out those seeds as well to see what happens. The seed are relatively large and look healthy, but I haven't tried to see if they will germinate.

JG

" But you are very close to getting some very nice flowers. I guess a trick for you will be to get them to reproduce predictably... "

Ay, there's the rub. Predictable reproduction is going to take a lot of selection and re-selection. In effect, I will have to "de-hybridize" the zinnias that I have hybridized. The selection and re-selection process is kind of fun, though, because the surprises along the way can be interesting and enjoyable, and some unexpected new zinnias can appear as a bonus. Next year I hope to grow a greater number of zinnias outdoors than this year.

This recent recombinant specimen has a rather conventional cactus-like flower form.

I like the fact that its "spikey" petals are straight, are a bit pointed, and are loosely spaced, such that there is considerable "air" between them. If its petals were longer and narrower, it would be spider flowered. I still like to be able to "see through" flower forms like that.

I am "reading up on" micropropagation, which uses some of the tissue culture technology. I expect to be doing some experiments in that area this Winter. My current techniques for zinnia cuttings are useful, but they are rather limited, because you can't find very many suitable cuttings on a given zinnia plant.

Micropropagation can potentially make more "copies" than cuttings can. By making many copies of a prized breeder, an enormous seed yield from it can be produced, which could in turn leverage the selection process to produce a stable new strain. I hope to find a practical micropropagation technique for zinnias. Wish me luck. I'll need it.

I am wishing you luck with your zinnias, including your marylandicas, tenuifolias, peruvianas, haageanas, and angustifolias. There is definitely a lot of potential "new blood" for zinnias there, and some inherent resistance to mildew as well. I am anticipating some exciting zinnia developments in 2010.

ZM

JG, I like the Extreme Roll: the color, the shades, and the shape. This year my goals are open-ended too. I just let open pollination to occur, then I will collect seeds from those flowers that I like and grow them next year. Only when I see something that I like will I start the manual pollination, recombination, etc.

Another year is almost over. I am looking forward to some indoor experiments and next year!

"Good luck in micropropagation this winter. I think micropropagation is tissue culture though. Or maybe micropropagation is a more general term, but most things I read about micropropagation is tissue culture. "

Thanks for your good wishes on my upcoming micropropagation experiments. I am certainly no expert, but I think that micropropagation is just one of the applications of tissue culture. For example, a branch of tissue culture involves the culture of animal cells.

At this time I am not certain that micropropagation is limited to tissue culture techniques. I personally do not impose such a limit on myself, because I would be quite happy to grow zinnias from tiny discs of leaf tissue or pieces of stem, using any method that "works". But I am definitely willing to use tissue culture techniques for the micropropagation of zinnias, and tissue culture methodology may be required. I have been particularly interested in the book, "Photoautotrophic (Sugar-Free Medium) Micropropagation as a New Micropropagation and Transplant Production System". That book is expensive, but in keeping with the notion of "putting your money where your mouth is", I have purchased the book, and plan to study it. You can use Amazon's "Click to Look Inside!" feature to get some idea of its contents.

This is a current recombinant zinnia with an "open" flower form.

It has flaws, but I will grow seeds from it with the expectancy that further recombinant variation may produce something better. At least its petals are kind of long and straight.

ZM

And geesh about the regular doctor. It used to be that when I was with a doctor or in a hospital, I f secure or at least safer. Nowadays I don't feel that anymore.

We are all pulling for you and for the success of your upcoming eye surgery. It is too bad that someone had to be filling in for your regular doctor for this problem to be diagnosed. Your account of the events leading up to this revelation is very well written, like a "page turner". Please do keep us informed, but at your convenience. We hope the best for you.

ZM

"Or maybe micropropagation is a more general term, but most things I read about micropropagation is tissue culture."

There is a chapter on "Micropropagation of Zinnia" in High-Tech and Micropropagation VI. You can read the chapter using Amazon's Click to Look Inside! feature with the search word zinnia. That book is priced far beyond my budget. That chapter isn't as useful as I had hoped, but it does explain the tissue culture techniques that they used and commercial motivations for doing zinnia micropropagation.

ZM

Our thoughts and prayers are with you in your upcoming surgery. I'm so glad you finally got a diagnosis that will help you! We'll look for your messages when you are able to get back. Hope your recovery is speedy!!

JG

Isn't micropropagation used for amplifying numbers of the same plant by using material of that plant in special sterile conditions and dividing and growing it up? The only places I've seen the term micropropagation used is in reference to plants. Making cuttings is one form of micropropagation.

Tissue culture in plants can be used for micropropagation, but it can also be used to study plant cells and/or their chemistry and development, or to transform plants with new genes, or to make certain products in bioreactors, like vaccines..,etc. These are observations from experience, but I'm sure there are many other applications!

I still have zinnia plants outside with flowers and am hoping for more seeds from particular crosses, but I am worrying that the lower temperatures at night may have an effect on the viability of the pollen as it does in some vegetables, like peppers. Do any of you have information on that?

JG

"...but I am worrying that the lower temperatures at night may have an effect on the viability of the pollen as it does in some vegetables, like peppers. Do any of you have information on that?"

I don't have any information on that. I didn't know about the cool weather effect on the pollen of peppers. I can neither confirm nor deny the effect. I'm continuing to pollinate, even though many of my zinnias are showing the effects of cooler weather. I plan to bring in a few cuttings from some of my better breeders. I already have one cutting plant going. This zinnia developed more intense color patterns in response to cool nights.

Incidentally, I'm not sure that cuttings qualify as micropropagation. So far my cuttings are too big to suggest the term "micro". I am hoping to reduce the size of the cuttings, but you can't go very far in that direction while retaining at least one growing point and at least one leaf pair. I would like to develop a protocol for leaf cuttings of zinnias, something like the leaf cuttings of African Violets. And if that worked with only a small piece of leaf, that would be even better.

ZM

I noticed that a lot of my flowers also get more color as the temperatures get cooler. Even many of the seeds take on a burgundy color! I also am continuing pollination, with the hope that I can get more seeds. It seems that as it gets colder, the flowers also produce more pollen. I hope it is viable.

Your orange flower looks great!

You had mentioned earlier that you used diluted Physan 20 with your cuttings, sterilizing the cuttings and their containers with it. Do you also water the cuttings with diluted Physan 20? I am going to try and use Physan 20 for the first time, as I noticed the one other time I tried to start a cutting, the plant quickly got fungal, and probably bacterial, growth within its dome. I have already been watering these plants outside with the Bayer All-in-One product, so they do have some systemic protection. Since Bayer recommended that its product not be used in containers, I wondered if the same caution should be taken with the Physan 20.

JG

Many/most of my zinnias might be gone by tomorrow. :-(

"Do you also water the cuttings with diluted Physan 20?"

Yes, I do. Actually, I water the cuttings with a weak urea-free nutrient solution that includes half-strength Physan 20. "Full strength" Physan 20 is 1½ teaspoons per gallon, and "full strength" indoor nutrients are 1 teaspoon per gallon, so I mix the two solutions in equal parts and each dilutes the other to give the equivalent of ¾ teaspoon of Physan 20 and ½ teaspoon of nutrients in a gallon. That's what I water my cuttings with. I haven't taken the time to optimize the proportions yet. I don't know at what concentration the Physan 20 might become phytotoxic.

I get the cutting medium nice and moist, but not waterlogged. I recently found a local source of Premier ProMix BX and I use that with some extra Perlite as my cutting medium.

It takes a little less than ¾-cup of starting solution per 3-inch pot. If a little seeps out the bottom of the pot, you know you have enough. However, I don't want much excess to be standing in the tray when I cover it with a humidity dome. I use 7-inch humidity domes for my zinnia cuttings.

Since the cuttings are under a humidity dome, they usually don't need to be watered again until they are ready to come out of the humidity dome in about 10 days. If your humidity domes have vents, make sure they are closed. I start the cuttings in 3-inch square pots and after two weeks the roots are usually filling the pot enough to justify re-potting to 5-inch square pots.

" I have already been watering these plants outside with the Bayer All-in-One product, so they do have some systemic protection."

That's an interesting point. I hadn't thought of that, but you are right. My cuttings will have some Bayer Advanced All-In-One Rose & Flower Care already in their sap.

"Since Bayer recommended that its product not be used in containers, I wondered if the same caution should be taken with the Physan 20."

Perhaps. I use the Physan 20 just once per pot, either as a starting solution for a cutting or as a starting solution for green seeds with surgically exposed embryos. Once the plant gets started, I haven't continued with the Physan 20. Perhaps I should. I did lose three large zinnia plants to bacterial stem rot early this year.

Incidentally, I plan to experiment with extra-diluted Bayer Advanced All-In-One Rose & Flower Care on some indoor zinnias. I have been using it outdoors at 2 tablespoons per gallon, as both a spray and a drench. That's quite a bit. I might start off indoors at one teaspoon per gallon. That would be one-sixth the strength of the outdoor solution, and it might be safe. I really don't want my indoor zinnia operation to be wiped out by thrips like it was in the Winter of 2007, and I now regard thrips, aphids, mildew, and possibly some other things as threats indoors. I use Mosquito Dunks, powdered up and added to my nutrient solutions, as a control for fungus gnats. Fungus gnat maggots can seriously eat the roots of indoor zinnia seedlings.

I haven't had a nematode problem that I know of, but I am curious about the effects of Physan 20 on nematodes. Pests and plant diseases can be annoying, but in an odd way they add an element of interest to my zinnia projects.

ZM

"Many/most of my zinnias might be gone by tomorrow."

I'll face that prospect soon. I plan to take cuttings indoors to reduce the impact on my zinnia project. You mention Zone 5/6 in your byline, but I wonder if that 6 is really applicable. Here in Wellsville Kansas I consider my Zone to be 5b, warmer than 5a, but definitely not a 6.

ZM

The next few days we will be above 40, however.

I wonder if the seeds that are already forming will continue to develop. Also, if a flower is completely dried up, the seeds should be ready, right?

Thanks!

I didn't realize that SE Michigan had some Zone 6. We got heavy thunderstorms last night and things are thoroughly soaked, but no frost is imminent. Some nighttime 40's are predicted. Zinnias really don't like cool weather. I figure this is the endgame for my outdoor zinnias, so I will be saving seeds and taking cuttings.

"I wonder if the seeds that are already forming will continue to develop."

They will continue to develop only as long as the branch of the zinnia they are on is still alive. If the branch is dead, you can harvest the seedhead for possibly viable green seeds. Green seeds have been discussed and pictured previously in these message threads. The important thing is whether the seed contains a reasonably "fat" embryo and whether it is a living embryo. The only way I know to tell for sure is to plant the seed. Seed companies do germination tests of their seeds, but I don't have enough seeds to allow me to waste some of them for germination tests.

"Also, if a flower is completely dried up, the seeds should be ready, right? "

Right. Nothing to be gained by not harvesting dried zinnia heads now. Give them a chance to dry out thoroughly indoors. I keep mine in paper plates or paper bowls for a few days. If you are ready to plant them indoors, you don't need to wait for green seeds to dry. Since the seed coat of a green seed is still alive, it is impervious to water. For that reason, I usually use an X-Acto™ knife to surgically "scarify" the seedcoat to allow water to access the embryo. That speeds things up a week or more. You don't need to do that for green seeds that have dried out, because the dried seedcoats are no longer living and are permeable to water.

ZM

Thanks so much for your information on starting cuttings.
Here near Indianapolis, there may be a frost any night now, and I'm anxious to try and preserve some of my plants. It's early for a frost, but better safe than sorry!

JG

I've tried to start three cuttings today--we'll see how they go. I should've practiced this technique more this summer, but it was a busy one, and now I'm regretting it! ZM, what is the typical length of the cuttings you start? I was thinking that you could actually cut a single plant into small segments and as long as you had a terminal or axial bud, along with some stem, you might be able to get a new plant even from a segment 1 to 2 inches in length (with luck and good technique)--certainly not my idea, but gleaned from the reference you gave earlier on micropropagation.

I was looking outside for some flowers for our indoor zinnia bouquet, and spotted this cactus flower brightening up our dreary afternoon. On further inspection, I saw that it was a threesie! This plant I believe is a relative newcomer. Not the best illustration, but:

JG

"On further inspection, I saw that it was a threesie!"

Wow! Is it ever! In addition, the color at the base of those leaves is almost coleus-like. I've seen that effect in zinnias before, but never more so than in your picture. That's two reasons for saving seeds from it. Oh, and that red flower is pretty good, too.

"...what is the typical length of the cuttings you start? I was thinking that you could actually cut a single plant into small segments and as long as you had a terminal or axial bud, along with some stem, you might be able to get a new plant even from a segment 1 to 2 inches in length (with luck and good technique)"

I have done that and I took a couple of cuttings a little over an inch long today. I think you need some leaf area on the small cuttings, too, to give the cutting the ability to make some food for itself. But it would be worthwhile doing some experiments to see how little you can get by with. I think the tiny cuttings are somewhat "iffy", but time will tell. Most of my cuttings are a bit longer. This is a typical cutting that I made today.

I cut off the lower leaves to get a longer stem to submerge in the rooting medium, and I remove the bud to shift the growth pattern toward developing lateral shoots.

This is a holding bucket filled with "standard" Physan 20 and several cuttings. Those flower buds were removed before I set the cuttings. It only takes a few minutes of swishing the cuttings around in the Physan 20 to do a reasonable job of disinfecting the cutting and removing any tiny creatures that may be on the cutting.

The holding bucket is a 1-gallon ice cream tub that has been "re-purposed". I'm still busy harvesting cuttings for indoor growth. I'll show some more details of my zinnia cuttings operation tomorrow.

ZM

Beautiful illustrations! I seriously think you're ready for your "Culture and Breeding of Zinnias" publication, and should get your work (at the least) into a gardening magazine.

Thanks again for your help.

JG

I might think about publication at some future time, but for the present time I am just enjoying my retirement and my hobbies.

Another comment I forgot to make about your recent threesie. Its leaves are nicely pointed, and I consider that to be a desirable trait. Zinnia leaves vary quite a lot, from short and rounded to long and oval to long and pointed, and I tend to prefer the long pointed leaf form. So that's another reason for saving seeds from your threesie.

I currently prefer the Dip 'n Grow liquid rooting concentrate for my zinnia cutting propagation, because it contains IBA and NAA rooting hormones and because you can control its strength by how much you dilute it in its dilution cup. This picture includes one of my "small" cuttings lying beside the 3-inch square pot.

For some cuttings the dilution cup is convenient, because you just dip their stem in the dilution cup and insert it in your rooting medium. However, most of my zinnia cuttings don't have enough stem length for that, so I just use an artists brush to paint the solution on the stem. The artists brush handle is also convenient for poking a hole in the rooting medium. By holding the stem over the hole while painting the liquid on, any excess drips off onto the medium or into the hole, which is handy.

I keep the DnG dilution cup in a short jar to keep it from falling over. That jar originally contained Bush's chili. I haven't seen that chili in the jars anymore, but I did save several of them a few years ago. They are considerably larger than baby food jars. A baby food jar might serve to stabilize the dilution cup.

Incidentally, I am slightly revising how much growing solution to put in each 3-inch square pot. I am now using a full ¾ cup per pot. Some does seep out, but that is a good thing once you get the pot in the tray, because you want some liquid to be standing in the tray when you put the humidity dome over it. The first 24 hours are critical, because the cuttings no longer have a sap supply and could easily wilt and even die if the relative humidity isn't 100%.

I plan to take some more zinnia cuttings today.

ZM

Well, the forecast is that it will drop to 31 degrees by 7am this morning, so that could be the end of my outdoor zinnias for this season. The zinnia cuttings that I took today could be all that I will be taking for awhile. This is a recent picture of a zinnia that suffered wind damage or bird damage the day after I took the picture.

Both of those flowers are on the same plant, although they look a bit different. I didn't notice that little black spider at the time I took the picture. I took a few cuttings from the plant, because it was evident that I wouldn't be getting any seeds from it. Hopefully at least one of the cuttings will survive, because I like its "spiderish" flower form and blended pastel colors. Maybe the spiders also like that flower form.

ZM

Well, my zins dodged the bullet two nights in a row. Saturday morning dropped to only 33 degrees (instead of the predicted 31), but this morning was ostensibly 31 degrees here. The zinnias seem to have come through it. However, it remains quite cold during the days, so my zinnias must be suffering hypothermia or something equivalent. I took the opportunity to save a few more cuttings yesterday and today. This is one of the specimens from which I took cuttings.

I like its "spiderish" flower form, but I think it is probably too young to set seeds this late in the season. Oddly, none of my current outdoor zinnias have a mildew problem, despite this ridiculous weather. I guess it must be the Bayer 3-in-1 Rose and Flower Care at work. Ironically, my one big indoor zinnia (a cutting taken from a wind-damaged plant a few weeks ago) does have some beginning mildew. I think it is time to experiment with diluted 3-in-1 indoors.

Incidentally, the weather people say that our temperatures are now running 25 degrees below average! Where is Global Warming when you need it? More later.

ZM

This is a better photo of the "spiderish" zinnia that was shown two photos up.

This photo had the zinnia in full sunlight, for a better rendition of its delicate pastel color blend. That spider apparently hadn't moved between the two photos. As of this moment, we still haven't had a killing freeze. More later.

ZM

I was on a short vacation to Paris, and the gardens in the city were beautiful! I was surprised to find no zinnias, as I was anxious to see what cultivars they might be using there. Surprisingly, saw no chrysanthemums either. I guess landscaping preferences vary. There were many plants from all over the world, both annual and perennial.

The weather here in Indiana is miserably cold and wet. My zinnias are all browned, but some are still struggling to bloom, as there must not yet have been a hard frost. I hope to dry some blooms of what remain in silica gel to decorate the "natural" tree our local Master Gardeners will be decorating for Christmas in the coming months.

ZM, your cactus blooms are nice and consistent in the "airiness" and form of petals. You must be at that stage where you have a pretty good idea how the F1s (and 2s, 3s, etc.) are going to turn out. The colors are really nice.

Before leaving on my trip, I started some cuttings, and was surprised to see that they were all still alive on my return! One had even started a new shoot. But, curious as I was, I checked the stems for roots and found that they had rotted on the ends, even though the shoots remained green and alive. I guess I should have had better drainage in the pot within the dome. I've trimmed the stems and replanted, and will try to do some more before it gets too cold. This is pretty experimental here with the zinnias, and I think I have to work at optimizing the conditions, and in doing so get a better feel for what is going on. I wonder if you can't just root these cuttings after a timed dip in hormones by placing in an aqueous solution that has nutrients and the Phytan 20--kind of a hydroponic thing?

ZM, I was wondering if you got any offspring from the plants with the rippled leaves? None of the seeds that I got from my plant germinated!!

JG

"I was on a short vacation to Paris, and the gardens in the city were beautiful! I was surprised to find no zinnias..."

I'm sure you enjoyed the trip. I've never been anywhere in Europe. I am surprised about no zinnias in Paris. China had a bunch at their Olympics. The French produce some of our zinnia seeds, including Burpee's Burpeeana Giants, I think.

"...your cactus blooms are nice and consistent in the "airiness" and form of petals. You must be at that stage where you have a pretty good idea how the F1s (and 2s, 3s, etc.) are going to turn out. The colors are really nice."

I also have some poor colors, but I don't use them or post pictures of them. I am getting quite a few "spidery" flower forms, but I am still looking for even longer and even narrower petals--something comparable to the spider flowered chrysanthemums. Maybe not quite that extreme.

"I wonder if you can't just root these cuttings after a timed dip in hormones by placing in an aqueous solution that has nutrients and the Physan 20--kind of a hydroponic thing?"

That could work. I actually haven't tried that, due to the tendency of my nutrient solutions to produce algae in the presence of light. Perhaps the Physan 20 would suppress the algae. Oxygen to the roots would be another concern. Hydroponic operations don't usually depend upon stagnant water. I add extra Perlite to my rooting medium to help get a better oxygen supply to the roots.

"This is pretty experimental here with the zinnias, and I think I have to work at optimizing the conditions, and in doing so get a better feel for what is going on."

Me too. It happens that the zinnia rooting "protocol" that I am now using sort of works, but I have no idea what is optimal.

"I was wondering if you got any offspring from the plants with the rippled leaves?"

I grew several seeds from my rippled specimen, but unfortunately none of them displayed rippled leaves. I did get some nice yellow Burpeeana zinnias from them, though, and I used them as breeders. The rippled leaves and tubular petals are two traits that have been elusive, but I still want to get them. Hopefully I can grow more zinnias next year, because sheer numbers can be effective in zinnia breeding.

I took this picture of some of my zinnia cuttings a few days ago.

I have some shorter cuttings under a 3-inch dome (barely visible in that picture). I haven't taken any cuttings out from under a dome yet (except for one that I rooted over a month ago -- it has a third bloom on it by now.)

I have planted some "fourth generation" seeds in order to get some zinnia plants that I can "play with" this Winter. I've repotted some of them already, and treated them with a Plant Growth Regulator (Topflor) in an attempt to keep them from growing too tall for my plant stands. It's actually much easier to cross-pollinate zinnias indoors, so I plan to plant some Persian Carpets in order to make a concerted effort at crossing with them. I also plan to order some of the new Benary's Giant Wine zinnias for their deep color. Stronger stems from the Benarys would be nice, too. I have seen much deeper near-black mahogany-purple colors in Persian Carpets. So I'll be planting the Persian Carpets "real soon now" (RSN).

ZM

I went to Switzerland in August, spent 2+ weeks there (for work too). They have a lot of zinnias, and I went to a nursery and they carry zinnia seeds too, but they are the ones that we are familiar with, so I didn't buy any.

ZM, I like your flowers and cuttings. You are so organized.

mmmm.... I wonder how HC is doing. HC, how was the surgery?

There are 20+ deer that sleep in our meadow beside the garden.

I planted the seeds in the deer resistant garden (no fence, no repellents used) in late June.

My Benary's Giant zinnias have remained untouched by the deer, except for ONE bloom on one plant. So, a deer tried it and didn't like it. They didn't touch the foliage on that plant at all.

This is the time of year that the deer will begin foraging for food to eat as the wild food supply becomes scarce. They are still passing by the zinnias, even though the "test plants" are along the edges of the garden, easy to reach. Other zinnias are within other plants such as salvia and agastache - great combinations.

Deer resistant gardening is my niche, so I report on all of my results in my gardening blog. Based on the test with Benary's Giant this year, I will sow seeds earlier in the season next year and try other zinnia varieties. I do have to watch out for rabbits in the spring, but not as much in the summer months.

Of course, depending upon the location, deer herd and availability of food - there are never any guarantees that a plant is totally deer proof. They did, after all, eat a yucca in my garden last winter! LOL

Cameron

Your blog is quite interesting. It was really helpful to see your garden pictures taken "from above."

"My Benary's Giant zinnias have remained untouched by the deer, except for ONE bloom on one plant. So, a deer tried it and didn't like it. They didn't touch the foliage on that plant at all."

It's encouraging that zinnias have at least some resistance to deer. We had a lot of deer exposure in our Maine garden and the only damage they did was mechanical, from running through the garden and knocking zinnia plants over or breaking off branches. I adapted tomato cages for use with my zinnias then to give them a measure of protection, and I still use zinnia cages here in Kansas, although the only animals of size running through my Kansas zinnia garden have been dogs. There are plenty of deer in the farmland surround our town, but ironically I think the barking of the dogs has discouraged the deer from entering.

"Deer resistant gardening is my niche, so I report on all of my results in my gardening blog. Based on the test with Benary's Giant this year, I will sow seeds earlier in the season next year and try other zinnia varieties."

We look forward to hearing about your results with deer and other varieties of zinnias next year. Fortunately our numerous squirrels have not taken an interest in my zinnias. Bird damage has occurred, mainly from birds attempting to land on a zinnia flower and the weight of the bird breaking the stem or branch upon which the flower was growing. Seed eating birds were also a problem in Maine, but so far not here in Kansas. I used my "zinnia nets" to protect maturing seedheads from seed-eating birds.

"Of course, depending upon the location, deer herd and availability of food - there are never any guarantees that a plant is totally deer proof."

That certainly makes sense. Hopefully the continued availability of more palatable plants will protect the zinnias.

I am now starting a fourth generation of zinnias from seed, to have something to "play with" this winter.

I have been reading up on micropropagation using tissue culture techniques. I'm in the information gathering mode right now. Later I will purchase a couple more books and start acquiring some of the necessary materials. It would be very useful to make many copies of a particularly good hybrid zinnia.

I think we all hope that HC is doing OK.

ZM

ZM, thanks for your photo of the cuttings in their domes. My cuttings looked almost identical to that, but I'm beginning to think that the "Dip n Grow" product that you use may be a better choice for zinnias that the Rootone that I've used. The mix of two different hormones may be more effective for zinnias. On the one cutting I have now, there is no rotting of the stem, but also no rooting. I brought in a whole plant that I was going to work with, thinking our frost did it no harm, but once in the house the little side-buds quickly died. The stem looks like it is still alive, but probably working with stem alone is just not enough with the set-up I have.

Your indoor plants in the last photo look so perfect! Thank goodness you will have flowers through the winter that you can show us!

Dave, good to hear from you. Guess your plants got hit by the frost, too, since you're north of here, unless saved by the "lake effect." I look forward to seeing what you get next year. Paris was nice and I had the chance to visit several of the formal gardens. What would be really interesting from our viewpoint here, I guess, would be to tour some of the fields of zinnias raised for seed. Ideally, you could search through the many acres and pick out mutants with interesting characterictics and take the seeds home to work with further! (Dream on, I guess)....I was in Switzerland, too, driving southeast from Basel through Lucerne, and to the Italian border to the south, in 2002. Saw lots of beautiful alpine flowers!

I also hope that HC is OK and his vision restored--wished in retrospect that we'd asked him to have a friend sign on to report his progress.

Cameron, you've got an interesting website featuring so many different plants as well as the project in making a deer-resistant garden. Bet your place is pretty spectacular in the growing season! We have deer here, but probably not so many as you. My dog probably discourages them, but I believe the real distraction for them (not good for the farmers!) are the many corn and soybean fields nearby. Even in the winter, the amount of grain remaining on the ground goes a long way in sustaining them and the Canadian geese, many of whom don't bother to fly south when it gets cold. (I wonder if another way to keep your flowers safe would be to plant a patch of deer goodies some distance away from your gardens that the deer would much prefer!) But, still, I can see how it would be a fun and interesting challenge to gather a number of plants that deer just don't like that at the same time would make a nice flower garden.
Zinnias are so very fibrous-- I would think they would be a very last choice for a meal!

I was looking over my collected zinnia seeds, dried and ready to go for next year (I have several gallons!--but who knows what they will yield--many are very average, no doubt). I found that the container of seeds gave out a very pleasant tea-like fragrance.

Well, I'm looking outside here and I see that we're back to very dreary, rainy fall days (thank goodness for the colorful leaves--they literally glow in otherwise gray background).

JG

"The mix of two different hormones may be more effective for zinnias. On the one cutting I have now, there is no rotting of the stem, but also no rooting."

As they say, where's there's life, there's hope. However, I have gotten some successful rooting with everything I have tried: Rootone, Hormex 1, Hormex 3, Hormex 8 and, of course, Dip 'n Grow. Rootone contains NAA, while all of the Hormex's contain IBA, in varying concentrations. As has been discussed previously, Dip 'n Grow contains both.

I was concerned that the Hormex 8 might be too strong, but as it turned out, the Hormex 1 was a little on the weak side, although I got some roots with it. In the garden, I have seen zinnia branches in contact with the ground put out roots without benefit of any rooting hormone at all. I can't swear that you couldn't root zinnias without a rooting hormone. But the only book that I have seen on the subject of rooting zinnia cuttings says that zinnias root with difficulty. I suppose that is relative. Certainly, coleus cuttings or tomato cuttings root easier than zinnias. But my success rate with zinnia cuttings is about the same as my success rate with saved zinnia seeds.

"What would be really interesting from our viewpoint here, I guess, would be to tour some of the fields of zinnias raised for seed. Ideally, you could search through the many acres and pick out mutants with interesting characteristics and take the seeds home to work with further! (Dream on, I guess)..."

In my opinion, if we had the opportunity to take specimens from a grower's field, we could accomplish 10-years worth of zinnia breeding progress in a single day.

"I was looking over my collected zinnia seeds, dried and ready to go for next year (I have several gallons!--but who knows what they will yield--many are very average, no doubt). I found that the container of seeds gave out a very pleasant tea-like fragrance. "

Heh, heh. I have noticed that tea-like fragrance, too. I wondered if I was the only one who liked it. Of course, I think a good compost pile smells good, too. I'll tell you one way you could take advantage of your large supply of seeds. Shuck them out to individual seeds and then search for your "pick of the litter" among those seeds. Look for extra large, extra long, extra "mean looking" seeds with textured surfaces or wavy edges. I literally have found some zinnia seeds with "horns". There is some correlation between seed size and shape and the resulting plant that you will get from it. Long thin seeds produce plants with long leaves, which tend to have flowers with long narrow petals. Short wide seeds have broader, rounder leaves and petals. By riffling through your zinnia seeds, you can pre-select for some interesting zinnia specimens for next year.

In support of my zinnia cuttings operation, I purchased several "clear" 3-inch orchid pots so that I could look through the sides of the pots to see if roots were visible. This is one such cutting:

You can't see it well in the photo, but several roots are visible through the sides of the pot, indicating that the cutting is ready to be repotted. Following is a picture of that same cutting after it has been repotted in a square 5-inch pot.

I have been busy the last couple of days re-potting cuttings and seedlings from 3-inch pots to 5-inch pots. I have a few 10-inch pots, but they are too big a jump from 5 inches. I think I will acquire some 7-inch or 7.5-inch square pots for the next re-potting stage. I would like to get 3 of them in a standard 11x22 tray.

I am currently growing more zinnias than I will have room for inside, but I anticipate that as they begin blooming I will have reason to discard a lot of them. Incidentally, some of them are forming buds now. I always enjoy the anticipation and, as they say, "Hope springs eternal."

ZM

The zinnias are still blooming in the outer gardens - untouched. I consider this summer's experiment a success.

Our deer herd is much too friendly.

We've been here four years and a lot of these deer were born here and are accustomed to seeing me and my greyhound. They actually move toward us! I have to stomp one foot (like a deer being territorial) to get them to leave. LOL Our neighborhood covenants won't allow hunting, so I just have to put up with their existence.

Cameron

As we arrive at 100 messages, this message thread is becoming a little slow to load, so we will continue over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 13. I hope nobody is superstitious.

As we end the season, our outdoor zinnias are gone or going, but we can still discuss various matters pertaining to zinnias in the off-season. See you all over at Part 13. Keep those zinnia pictures coming, and the zinnia talk going.

ZM