MM,

You're right, I guess the "Spoonwheel" look is not that unusual. But when viewing all the diversity of these flowers, it is one more interesting shape. Mine has not yet been assigned to the compost pile!

Here are some pictures I have been able to get at work that you might like--zinnia pollen up close!

The first picture is looking at the outside surface from the front, 1000X. Because of the size of the pollen and this magnification, only one plane can come close to being resolved at a time.

{{gwi:16514}}

Here is the profile of the pollen grain.

{{gwi:16516}}JG

HC,

I'm hoping for just what you mentioned--that several flowers of the same plant will be blooming at the same time, and at least one has pollen. Hopefully in a week or so I may have that good fortune, so that I can self some of my favorite flowers.

Your method of growing flowers and vegetables is a good idea, in order to get all the garden watered at once and more often. We've had near drought-like conditions some years here, but this year has been very wet. I can never water my garden though when its dry because it is too big and we have a well.

I've made lots of nets, too, and I may be carried away with the number of crosses I'm setting up. Probably it is time to stop with any new ones so tht I can keep up!

The hawks can be scary. I've been told by more than one person that I was lucky I wasn't scalped out in the garden!
I suspect what I got was a warning--had I ventured close to the nest in some way, there may have been more of a threat!

What kinds of zinnias are you growing now?

JG

Hi all,

I guess I am lucky that our hawks don't nest near here and only occasionally do I see one cruising high overhead looking for accessible prey in an open area. Our many trees apparently discourage attack dives in this immediate area, although there are some open meadow areas about half a mile from here, and the hawks seem interested in it. Owls apparently can dive for prey in our wooded area. There must be some very effective predators operating in our area now, because I haven't seen a squirrel, chipmunk, or ground squirrel in the last several weeks.

That account of the hawk and the cat was really very graphic and descriptive. Good writing, HC.

JG, thanks for the zinnia pollen pictures. Very interesting. How are those lighted? From below, by light transmission directly through the pollen grain?

Changing the subject; this is a picture of one of my current plan-of-three specimens, which has appeared in my second generation.

{{gwi:16518}}

It is disappointing on two counts: the flower is poor and the branching is very limited, with the lower leaf triads not generating any side branches yet. However, there is a third side branch, mostly obscured from this angle by the main stem. I haven't given up on a plan-of-three zinnia strain. It just looks like that isn't going to be successful in the near future.

MM

Hi all,

I was handling some zinnias today and noticed an aphid on the back of my hand. Apparently some of my zinnias have aphids, although I haven't looked closely yet for them. However, it isn't hard to see Japanese Beetles. I have killed dozens of them in my zinnias. I do spare the ones that have a small white parasite egg on their back, usually on their thorax.

{{gwi:16520}}

The Japanese Beetle in this picture has already done some minor cosmetic damage, but was spared because he/she (probably "she" -- the female JBs are larger) has a parasite egg, barely visible in this picture because the egg happens to be located in a reflective highlight from the angle of the camera. The damage doesn't matter, because that zinnia is headed for the compost pile.

MM

P.S. I wonder what those little white dots are on the edges of the zinnia leaves. It seems that some, perhaps all, zinnia leaves have those dots. They must be part of the leaf anatomy. They must have some secret function for the zinnia leaf. But what?

So what will the parasite egg become that is hitchhiking on the beetle? Is it something beneficial?

The zinnias I have blooming right now are an humble beginning. Last year I intentionally planted only violet and canary dahlia blooms. My hope was to learn what I could about crossing the two colors. My '08's are from seed collected from these. My first bloomer is pink, but all the others are violet. There is a small range of flower forms, but most people who are not paying attention would say they are all the same.
I had a small patch of single petaled volunteers that came up last year among my herbs. I've never remembered having zinnias there the previous year, so "unknown parentage". I would never have knowingly planted such a simple flower and they were my least favorite color - pink. But '08 volunteers from these have given me the most enjoyment!
Most have been simple, but a couple are more complex. They've come in violet, orange, strawberry, hot pink, and one pink-tinged white.

I cheated with my swizzles. They were already in bloom when I bought them potted. I'm using the ivory/cherry and the yellow/scarlet for crosses with everything.

My zinnias that are just now coming up should be from about 14 different packets + a couple of my '08 crosses.

HC,

"So what will the parasite egg become that is hitchhiking on the beetle? Is it something beneficial?"

The parasite egg hatches to a small maggot that enters the body of the beetle and eventually causes its demise, and produces another generation of parasitic flies. This picture shows a beetle that is "plastered" with seven eggs, but usually you see only one, two, or three eggs. The parasite flies are doing extra well this year in controlling the Japanese Beetles, but the JBs are still a daily problem, doing mostly just cosmetic damage.

"I cheated with my swizzles. They were already in bloom when I bought them potted. I'm using the ivory/cherry and the yellow/scarlet for crosses with everything."

I expect you will be glad you got the Swizzles. I expect some interesting results from your crosses.

MM

Hi all,

This is a recent picture of a bed of my second generation seedlings, just coming into bloom.

{{gwi:16522}}

I have sent a few of the zinnias in that picture to the compost pile since making the picture, because I have more zinnia plants waiting for the space.

MM

Good evening!

MM, the picture of your garden makes one feel like he is right there! Your plants look so healthy and well-tended, and there are some very pretty flowers in there! Some look quite large. The plan-of-three plant is interesting, especially in that it seems to be an inherited trait, being that you are in the second generation.

The Japanese beetles have come to my garden, too. They are doing a lot of damage to selected plants, and I'm having to go and shake them off from time to time. I would really welcome the parasites at this point!

I have to go and see if those white spots are on the edges of my leaves. I haven't noticed those before.

HC, I guess it goes to show you are living in a mild climate when you get zinnia volunteers! I guess you must be able to easily get several generations in one summer. It will be interesting to see how your swizzle crosses do. I am trying to do some crosses with those as well.

Here are some of my small zinnias, starting to bloom now. They are all types of Zinnia haageana, except for the two red ones. The red spider zinnia is Zinnia tenuifolia, while the one with wider petals is Zinnia peruviana.

{{gwi:16524}}{{gwi:5398}}{{gwi:16527}}

{{gwi:16529}}{{gwi:16531}}{{gwi:16533}}

JG

JG,

Those Haageanas are interesting. See the dark purple on that last one? That is the same dark purple that was in the Black Ruby, which was a Lilliput or Cupid Z. elegans. I have been trying to recover that by growing Lilliputs. So far, no luck. I think big spider flowered zinnias in the "black ruby" color, with or without white tips, would be spectacular.

There is presumably a chromosome-number barrier to crossing Z. elegans (violacea) with Z. haageana, but the bicolors and tricolors in Whirligig, Carrousel, and Zig Zag are thought to have been derived from crosses in about 1875 between Haageanas and Elegans by breeders who didn't know it was "impossible". (Refer to page 345 of Flower Breeding and Genetics.)

Rather than repeat crosses between Haageana and Violacea, I am growing a lot of Whirligigs and Zig Zags looking for good new genetic material. However, I am now getting interested in the potential of doing some interspecific crosses, in case some of those "impossible" crosses aren't 100% impossible.

MM

MM,

Your Japanese beetle picture was great! That guy was obviously starting to have his lunch. I caught this fellow this morning. He is one of those who obviously wants to be first in line and is willing to wait for the featured item.

{{gwi:16534}}

I almost recall seeing the dark purple Thumbelinas. That would be a pretty flower, or a cactus in that color would be sharp, as you mentioned, with white tips. I am just going to let the little zinnias mingle and see what crosses nature will provide in the seeds.

JG

MM,

It looks fine here on my 15" screen. Very nice garden--feels like we are all there, like a Master Gardeners' visit to a member's garden.....

JG

MM, it works fine for me. Beautiful garden. I envy you.

Well, when I retire I want to move to a place like that too. A house where you can have your garden anyway you want rather than having the house assiocation as the king. Hopefully somewhere warmer too. :-)

Hello everyone,

There are more flowers than ever here and I thought I would show some of the cactus-flowered blooms. I have planted seeds for those from HPS, T & M, and Park. There is enormous diversity among these flowers not only as obtained from each company, but among the companies as well.

{{gwi:16536}}{{gwi:16537}}{{gwi:16538}}{{gwi:16539}}

{{gwi:16540}}{{gwi:16541}}{{gwi:16542}}{{gwi:16543}}

{{gwi:16544}}{{gwi:16546}}{{gwi:16548}}{{gwi:16550}}
Does anyone have a suggestion for a cross I might make, not between two cactus-flowered, but between one of them and another sort of Zinnia violaceae? I have Benary types of all colors, Scabiosa, Whirligig, Red-Striped, and a type like Thumbelina. I would welcome any suggestions.

JG

Hello again,

I found an information sheet
http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-1311/
(Greenhouse Production of Bedding Plant Zinnias) and thought I would share. There is a lot of detail about raising zinnias indoors. Interestingly, the Swizzle series is classified as Zinnia grandiflora. (By the way, I tried putting in the usual command for the link above, but for some reason, it would not work this time!)..

JG

JG, thanks for sharing the information. It is especially nice for me to know that zinnia is a facultative short day plant since I am starting late. :-)

JG,

Thanks for the informative zinnia link. I do find that classifying Swizzle as Z. grandiflora is hard to believe. I wonder if Grimes Seeds sells only to commercial greenhouses. I don't recall seeing Cascade Beauties, Ice Cream series, LoGro series, Marvel series, or Phoenix series anywhere, although their Uproar Rose and Zowie Yellow Flame have been widely sold.

You have some good looking cactus specimens. Since I prefer open blooms with space between the petals, my favorites are numbers 3, 6, 7, and 12, numbered in normal reading order. I also like 2 and 9. Of course, I would be tempted to inter-cross them with each other, in order to get more open flowered cactus types. But other than that, I would do Scabiosas and Whirligigs.

I grew some Zinnitas this year (an F1 hybrid version of Thumbelina), and found them much too small for my taste. I gave them away. I like the plant habit of the Swizzles, but I would prefer them to have taller bushes. If you have any Swizzles, you could cross to them, in an attempt to get a bigger plant than Swizzles with a cactus flower form, but keeping their branching plants and bicolors.

I planted some Peter Pans this year, out of curiosity, and I like them much better than I expected. I will be crossing taller zinnias with them in order to get a bigger plant for them while hopefully retaining their branchy bushy plant habit. The older Peter Pan has a similar plant to the newer Magellans and Dreamland, but Peter Pan is the only zinnia in that plant class (that I know of) with semi-cactus and cactus flower forms.

I don't like the closely packed petals of most "conventional" zinnia flower forms. Of course, my preferences are purely subjective and a lot of people do like the classical "dahlia flowered" zinnia flower forms.

It looks like you have a lot of possibilities for some interesting crosses. The Benarys have a rather upright commercial cut flower plant habit, but they do have strong stems and you might be able to refine their plants and flower forms with some hybridization.

MM

First off, I love the amount I'm able to learn from this thread. It's been like taking a mini class.

MM, You were quite successful with your thumbnail approach. It works out fine. It is like getting to visit without the gnats. I LOVE all the photos. I want more. The only drawback is that it's taking a while to get everything downloaded.

I noticed that Stokes' catalog also says that swizzles are a Z. grandiflora hybrid. I sure hope my crosses with swizzles and Z. viloacea are successful. If that's true, what else is included in "grandiflora"?

JG, are all your non-violacea zinnias physically located closely enough that bees can have a chance at interpollinating for you? I hope so, because that way we can all learn from your efforts. My red spiders and scabis were shipped from T&M on the 15th, but I'm still waiting on arrival.

Do you know from which company the seeds came for cactus flowered numbers 3 and 12? That's the kind I want to grow. Like MaineMan said, I would intentionally interbreed some of these cactus flowered. (Numbers 9 and 8 are cool too.) Other than that, I would cross with scabis and with swizzles. I don't know if these cactus-fl are branching a lot, but that is what I like most about the swizzles. I cannot see any room for more buds, but the swizzles just keep pushing more blooms into the mass of color. However,the little hairnets don't work too well for something so short.

MM, referring to your July 17 photo of 2nd generation seedlings. How do you keep up with the parentage of so many plants? Or are all the plants in this section from one cross?

Hi!

Thanks to both HC and MM for the comments on zinnia breeding. This is the first year I've ever done this, and it's kind of like being a kid in a candy store. Which do I want to cross? (Well, nearly all of them given the time and space!)

I've got to force myself to be more focused, or we'll end up plowing up the back 6 acres here! I've thought about it some more, and have decided to go for a more delicate, but big bright red zinnia. I'll cross the bright red scabiosa with a bright red cactus zinnia. I like the bicolored look of Swizzles too and will try to cross those with a rather broad- but curved- petaled and light-colored cactus type. I better understand, MM, now, why you take cuttings to grow over winter! If you see something you like, it may be a while before you see it again.

HC, those two zinnias you liked came from HPS. In fact, most of my cactus zinnias have been grown from HPS seeds. I have two rows of those, one row of Thompson and Morgan and one-half of a row of Park. Also, I have a half of a row of Burpee Burpeeanas. Most of the cactus zinnias, though, are not all that alike when grown from the same package of seed, and all three companies show about the same range of variation, slightly less in the Burpeeannas. MM, I see those white spots now on the sides of the leaves, and I noticed they are particularly prominant in the cactus types.

Although Swizzles may be of a different species, I'm convinced they cross with the common violaceae zinnias, as I started getting those bi-colored hybrid F1's before I ever grew whirligigs here. And, I've just started to notice something that happens to both Swizzles and at least some of what I believe are Swizzle relatives (I'll have to watch the whirlygigs--it's possible they may do this, too, but so far this season, I've seen none that have). The Swizzles after first opening are clearly bicolor, but as the flowers become older, all the emerging petals are red as seen below:

Young Swizzle:

{{gwi:1827}}

Older Swizzle:

{{gwi:1828}}

Have any of you seen whirligigs that do this?

My main garden now looks like this. It was organized at first, but is quickly assuming the "wild look," as the zinnias in the center get taller. I know some seeds are starting to mature now because the goldfinches are beginning to congregate in the garden and dismantle flowers! Those nets will be helpful! When I start growing out crosses, the rows will be more widely spread. I like the look of MM's more controlled garden.

{{gwi:16555}}

I think I will have a lot of random crosses made by our pollinators, and I will as usual collect seed from the nicest flowers. I hope the "little" zinnias cross, too, but I can only wait and see. I will grow all the seeds I collect from them in a short zinnia site, although if they cross with the taller zinnias nearby that will remain to be seen..

JG

HC,

"I noticed that Stokes' catalog also says that swizzles are a Z. grandiflora hybrid. I sure hope my crosses with swizzles and Z. violacea are successful."

Stokes got their Swizzles from Grimes Seeds, and apparently Grimes calls them Z. grandiflora, so Stokes is just repeating Grimes. As JG suggested, she apparently had Swizzle crosses from bees with her other zinnias before she had any Whirligigs, so Swizzles should cross with Z. violacea just fine.

" If that's true, what else is included in "grandiflora"?"

Well, I personally suspect that Z. grandiflora is being misused by the seed producers and seed sellers, perhaps because it contains the word "grand".

If you read the Alabama Cooperative Extension System link that JG gave previously, Greenhouse Production of Bedding Plant Zinnias, you will notice that it says, "Zinnia grandiflora Rocky Mountain or prairie zinnia is a clump-forming perennial that grows to be 4 to 6 inches tall and 12 to 20 inches wide with narrow leaves up to 1 inch long and 0.12 inches wide. Prairie zinnia naturally grows on arid hillsides and mesas throughout much of the southwestern United States at elevations from 2,000 to 6,000 feet. It flowers throughout the summer and into the fall with yellow-orange, daisy-like flowers."

I think that is probably correct, that Z. grandiflora is a wild perennial species as described. But then that publication lists Swizzle as Z. grandiflora. I have my doubts about that. I think Swizzle is Z. violacea.

In the Zinnia chapter of the book, Flower Breeding and Genetics, Dennis Stimart and Thomas Boyle do not mention Z. grandiflora in the section on Interspecific Crosses beginning on page 345. I think if Swizzle were Z. grandiflora, it would be a lot different from what it is.

"...referring to your July 17 photo of 2nd generation seedlings. How do you keep up with the parentage of so many plants? Or are all the plants in this section from one cross?"

They are not all from the same cross. I assign each "breeder" a code ID. If you look closely near the base of the plants, you might see small white plastic labels containing the ID, date planted, etc. They all have the small white labels, but only a few show in the picture. I'll show an example in a subsequent message. I keep a journal with descriptive information associated with the codes.

MM

JG, Your garden looks totally inviting! I like the way it is bordered by shade.

About the "cascading" photos; I was showing photos from these threads to some garden club ladies. The cascading were the only ones they didn't like. They associate healthy with perky and upright. Just a thought.

My swizzles are doing the same thing where the bicolor becomes less obvious with age.

I'm not familiar with HPS. Is there a link to them? What is that short for?

MM, I see the little ID spikes now in the photo. I knew that after taking all the time to record crosses and label seed that you had a way of tagging individual plants too. Good thing I was just looking and not stepping.
I started to purchase those ID spikes at a garden center until I saw the price for 10. Instead, I buy boxes of plastic knives, write on the blades, and poke the handles into the soil.

All that you have written about Z. grandiflora is exactly as I suspected. One company gives out wrong info and others use it as a reliable source. I do think the swizzles must be hybrids just by looking at the number of seeds per package. Therefore one should expect some variability in F2's, not to mention outcross variability. Really big kid in a candy store.
The Ultimate Plant Book says that Z. grandifora is a perennial, and I just can't see swizzles being that.
Armitage's Manual of Annuals, Biennials, and Half-Hardy Perennials (How do you underline in this forum?) describes Z. elegans (What year did it become violacea?) as having "leaves clasping or almost so". Z. angustifolia has "sessile leaves that are linear to linear lanceolate". Z. haageana's leaves are "lanceolate to ovate". Z. peruviana is "a relative of Z. angustifolia". It mentions peruvians being 2 to 3 feet tall. I had imagined them as short.

Sorry for the rambling. I'm on a first-taste-of-cherry-tomatoes-from-direct-seeding high.

HC,

"I started to purchase those ID spikes at a garden center until I saw the price for 10."

I bought my labels from Harris Seeds. I chose the small 4-inch labels because they fit nicely under a standard humidity dome. When I repot or transplant the zinnia outdoors, the label simply "follows along." Since there was a price break for buying 4 or more packages of 250, I bought 4 packages, thinking that a thousand labels would "last forever". That made the labels cost about 4¢ each.

I considered using the plastic knives as you do, but I like to write on the labels with soft 2B pencil lead because it never fades and is erasable, so I can simply erase the labels and re-use them. An ordinary pencil eraser works, although when I am erasing a lot of labels at a time I use Bon Ami cleaner, because it works faster. I have a 0.5mm pencil loaded with 2B lead that I use for writing on the labels. Its lines are fine enough that I can write quite a lot if I write small. My pencil didn't work well on plastic knives or spoons.

The labels have a "slick" glossy side and a matte side, and I usually write on the matte side. The pencil doesn't write too well on the glossy side. I think the slick side is meant for markers that use a liquid ink. I don't use the markers because they aren't so erasable and they seem to fade quite a bit in the sun.

I start a lot of my "fancier" seeds indoors under fluorescent lights. I have used several hundred labels already, because I plant my seeds one per 2½-inch square pot, with a label in each little pot. I average only about 50% germination on my saved seeds, so a lot of labels were in pots that didn't come up. Of course I wash, sterilize, and re-use the pots.

"How do you underline in this forum?"

This forum responds to a lot of HTML commands, so if you type in <u>please underline this</u> it will appear as please underline this. Substitute "i" for "u" and you will get italics and substitute "b" and you will get bold.

MM

I've been growing zinnias this summer and was sure to save seeds from a combination I had never seen before. This zinnia is a creamy white with dark pink on the edges that intensified in color as it aged.

{{gwi:16558}}

I also have a question. Is it normal for zinnia's to be so bendy? If you take mine and push it to the side for a little bit (like what the wind does), it will pretty much stay where you put it.

Hi reslider,

Glad to see you here. That's an interesting zinnia, with the pink tips. Some of the petals appear to be a bit dead on the tip. I wonder if that might be a nutrient deficiency.

"Is it normal for zinnia's to be so bendy? If you take mine and push it to the side for a little bit (like what the wind does), it will pretty much stay where you put it."

I have seen some differences in how the branches bend on some of my zinnias as well. Some have very thick branches, almost like small trees and are very strong. And some seem rather "bendy" like you describe. I guess it is better to bend than to break, but there does seem to be a genetic factor or factors affecting zinnia plant strength.

Although the element silicon is not considered necessary for plant growth, plants do absorb and use silicon to aid in cell wall strength, which in turn adds strength to the stems and branches. Rice farmers use silicon containing fertilizers to improve the stem strength of their rice plants and, without the silicon, the yield is much lower because the plants break or bend over.

I have experimented with feeding my zinnias silicon via the product Pro-TeKt from Dyna-Gro and, although it is too early to know for sure, it does seem that my zinnias benefit from the silicon feeding. There was a recent discussion here on GardenWeb, Questions About Dyna-Gro Liquid Bloom?? in which Pro-TeKt was also discussed. For more information, click on the Pro-TeKt Sell Sheet link on the WormsWay page.

The active ingredient in Pro-TeKt is simply potassium silicate, sometimes sold as "water glass". Water glass can also be sodium silicate, and I wouldn't want to use the sodium form on my plants. I have been looking for an inexpensive source of potassium silicate, but so far haven't found one. So I guess I will continue using the Pro-TeKt product until I do.

MM

Hello everyone!

I was going to send a picture this morning, but we've once again had a lot of rain, and now the zinnias are truly turning into a jungle. This evening I may go and stake some of my favorites.

HC, the link for HPS would be http://www.hpsseed.com/ .
HPS stands for Horticultural Products and Services. When I was checking for their website, one link had them associated with Thompson and Morgan, so I wonder if T&M may have purchased them? I don't know for sure, and I didn't have time to check it out.

The trees you see at one side of my garden is where the hawk had her nest, fairly high up. And, as far as the droopy flower goes, I thought it was an interesting form. It's not my favorite, either, but I bet some folks would like it! There is a kind of coneflower that has a similar shape, and I see it in a lot of gardens!

My Peruvian zinnias have taken off in height, and are now surpassing the haageanas, Swizzles, tenuifolias, and angustifolias in height! I am going to have to thin that patch.

MM, with respect to those pollen photos, I took them using a Q-imaging digital camera mounted on a Nikon Eclipse 50i compound microscope. The light was coming from below the slide. I am still getting used to working with the associated software so that the captured picture represents just what is seen through the microscope!

Well, it's off to work for me!

JC

Reslider, when I enlarged your photo I could see what MM was saying. It seems that only the tips that had turned pink had then turned crispy. I still think this flower is a good candidate for seed saving.

JG, maybe Z. peruviana really does grow 2 to 3 ft tall. I learned yesterday that Z. haageana and Z. peruviana are the two species most closely related to Z. violacea; all having 24 chromosomes. Shahin et al (1971) produced sterile hybrids of peruviana x violacea.

Thanks for the link to HPS. I didn't have a clue.

I wasn't dissing the cascades; just passing along an opinion. I'm wondering how that same characteristic might look with different petal type. I would keep working with them just because they are different. Part of genepooling is hanging onto anything out of the ordinary so that it can be tried in new combinations. I have two zinnias I have labeled as savers, not because I like their flowers, but because they offer something different that I'd like to learn about.

MM, it's nice to revisit your panorama and just look around. However, I can't find any of the seams. You're already too slick.

JG,

Grin. JG? You must have been in a hurry to get off to work. Back to zinnias.

{{gwi:16561}}Recently I had an odd specimen develop, in which the main stem started with four leaves and then divided into two main stems. At first I thought, omigosh, another "freak of nature", but I came to like the thing. It sort of makes it own flower arrangement. It is kind of sad that it had to develop this far in a tiny little 2½ inch pot. That Better-Gro water soluble orchid food has let me get by with leaving zinnias in small pots much too long. Orchids don't have much in the way of roots, but zinnias should be allowed much more room for root development. I need to remember that while I am mixing up a batch of orchid food for my zinnias. However, I transplanted that zinnia into the garden after I took this picture.

I think your Peruvian zinnias have definite breeding possibilities. On page 338 of Flower Breeding and Genetics, Stimart and Boyle say that "the 13 species in subgenus Zinnia are classified into three sections, Mendezia, Tragoceros, and Zinnia. Section Zinnia contains three species: Z. Haageana, Z. peruviana, and Z. violacea (formerly Z. elegans). The chromosome number is 2n = 2x = 24 for all three species."

Stimart and Boyle go on to say, "Zinnia peruviana is an erect herbaceous annual, 70-100 cm in height with lancelinear to broadly ovate or elliptic leaves and 4-5 cm wide capitula [blooms] with ray florets in a single whorl. Ligules [petals] are either yellow or scarlet red. It is distributed from southeastern Arizona and western Mexico to Peru and Argentina at elevations from sea level to 3000 meters. Plants flower from April to October in North America. The species is found in numerous habitats throughout its range. Plants can yield prolific numbers of seed and it has escaped from cultivation in some temperate and subtropical regions with summer rainfall. Zinnia peruviana is not cultivated widely, perhaps because it exhibits little phenotype variation relative to Z. violacea."

In the section 6.2, Interspecific Crosses, Stimart and Boyle go on to say, "Shahin et al. (1971) crossed diploid (2n = 2x = 24) accessions of Z. peruviana (as female) and Z. violacea and obtained F1 hybrids. The F1 hybrids were more vigorous than either parent and most hybrids resembled Z. violacea more than Z. peruviana. Intercrosses between F1 hybrids and backcrosses to both parents failed to produce viable seeds. Microscopic examination of pollen mother cells revealed irregular meiosis. There have been no further reports of interspecific hybrids between these two species."

It sounds to me like it might be worth a second try, with different examples of Z. violacea. At the very least, you would get to see some interesting F1 hybrids.

MM

HC,

I agree with your comments about saving seeds from the pink-tipped breeder, despite the tip burns.

I see that we referred to the same sources about crossing Z. violacea and Z. peruviana. Now I wish that I had some Peruvianas growing. I'll order a few seed for a fall crop, or for use this winter. Worst case, I could grow the sterile F1 hybrids from cuttings.

I must admit that my first impression of the Cascades was negative. It looked to me like there must be something wrong with them. Now that I realize the trait is probably genetic, I think it might be worth pursuing them as a strain. Lots of Echinaceas hang down way more. I'll have to check my seed storage to see if I happened to save any seed from my Cascades specimen. And I'll keep my eye open if any new examples appear this summer.

Thanks for the compliment on the panorama. However, I do need to learn to make the things level.

MM

Echinaceas were what I had in mind when I mentioned using the cascading type, but with other petal form. An 18 inch tall candelabra plant with about 14 deep red blooms of a single whorl of drooping petals.

HC,

"An 18 inch tall candelabra plant with about 14 deep red blooms of a single whorl of drooping petals."

That would look spectacular, and very "un-zinnia-like". Sounds like a worthy breeding objective.

MM

Good morning!

MM, your pink zinnia might have an unusual growth pattern, but it is a beautiful plant! I hope you can get it to reproduce more of its own kind through seeds! You said you liked open-petaled zinnias, and this one surely has those kind of blooms-very pretty! Also, it appears you have truly mastered indoor gardening of zinnias, looking at that example.

HC and MM, too bad you folks didn't live nearby. I could give you some transplants of my "little" zinnias. That is a misnomer now. Their wild-type characterististics are letting them compete and crowd out the Profusions (another misnomer in this case) and the Swizzles as well as the White Stars. Here is what that little patch looks like now. Excuse the weeds in the background...my tiller has just broken, we've had lots of heat and rain, and work-hours this week have been rather demanding...

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Left to right: Persian Carpet, Profusions, Swizzles, Red Spider, White Stars, Chippendale, Aztec Sunsets.
The Profusions are hardly visible, but are starting to flower, The Swizzles are mostly hidden, but persistent with their flowers, the Red Spiders are doing fine as are the Chippendales, and Aztec Sunsets. The White Star plants are there, but have scarcely begun to bloom. OK, I guess I should start crossing several of those Persian Carpets!

JG

Whoops! I forgot to point out the Peruvian zinnias. They appear to be between the Persian Carpets and the Swizzles. The top bud of one is just below the upper edge of the picture. To the right of them are the (invisible) Profusions.

JG,

"I guess I should start crossing several of those Persian Carpets!"

You should also be able to inter-cross the Persian Carpets and the Aztec Sunsets, because they are both Z. haageana. And, if you are feeling adventuresome, you could start pollinating the Peruvians with Z. violacea, as HC and I mentioned above. The tall height of your Peruvians is encouraging that they have "something". And, who knows, you might get lucky and create a Z. peruviana x Z. violacea hybrid that isn't sterile.

"Also, it appears you have truly mastered indoor gardening of zinnias, looking at that example."

Thanks for the compliment, but I still have a lot to learn. I learn new things nearly every week, frequently by trial and error. And that tall skinny plant, even though it does have two main stems, is a pretty good example of how you should not grow a zinnia indoors. Its nutrition is OK, but the paler lower leaves show that they were starved for light. The pot is much too small. I have been very remiss in re-potting, and my Plant Growth Regulator treatments have mostly been timed a couple of weeks too late. I have a few seedlings that I treated with PGR this evening, hopefully in time this time.

Growing plants, indoors or out, it is a learning experience, and I always hope to do better "next time."

MM

JG, Thanks for sharing your garden with us. Thanks also for offering to share transplants though I guess we'll have to wait on gas prices to come down before we traipse off to Indiana. (I truly wish you would save me some seed from "Loopy".)
I'm wondering if you might not have luck crossing each type of Z. haageana with the Z. peruviana. Who knows? Try going both ways using the peruviana as the pollen donor and vice versa. From what I read, crosses can be successful between individuals of species and not successful with others.

HC,

I can't believe I didn't think of crossing Z. haageana with Z. peruviana. They have the same chromosome number!

"From what I read, crosses can be successful between individuals of species and not successful with others."

Exactly! I think there are a lot of experiments with interspecies yet to be made, and who better than us who don't have to convince a department head or justify budget to a manager in order to do something. By trying more things, we could succeed where others have failed. Next year, maybe this Fall and Winter indoors, I am going to be planting several zinnia species.

Actually, indoor pollination is easier, because you don't have to fight the bees, the wind, or the rain and you can sit in a comfortable chair. A lot of the seedling I am growing right now were pollinated right here in this room, with the convenience of head-mounted magnifiers, where I have this computer and two plant stands.

You have inspired me to add interspecific zinnia pollination as one of my indoor gardening projects this Winter. Now I will have the "fun" of learning how to grow those species under fluorescent lights. So far all of my experience has been with Z. violacea. Hopefully growing the other species is similar.

Based on how high JG's Z. peruvianas are, I may have to use some Plant Growth Regulators to keep them compact enough to fit on my plant stand shelves. I am still learning the techniques of using PGRs. Yesterday I treated some seedlings at the "3½ true leaf stage" with some 2 ppm A-Rest. Today I am treating some seedlings at the same leaf stage with some 3 ppm Topflor.

The objective of these experiments is to learn how to keep my zinnias compact enough to grow on three-shelf plant stands without touching the lights. When you have to remove shelves to make room for taller plants you lose growing space and the lower leaves of the plants don't get enough light.

I am excited by the anticipation of new zinnia projects in the future. I really enjoy this hobby.

MM

Hi!

I've had a chance to get outside a little today. Here are a couple of mixed offspring that have come up from past generations here in my garden. They are far from perfect, but are the first flowers coming from each plant. I think the second flowers may be better if I pay special attention to each plant. (It is truly a jungle out there!).

Anyway, here is a frilly pink, followed by a gaudy flower I call "July Bonnet." I don't think I've seen white stripes in a zinnia before.

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{{gwi:16570}}Since there are at least two folks becoming interested in other species of zinnias, I will be back later tonight with more. Have to seriously stake some tomatoes..

JG

JG,

The "streaky" pattens on "July Bonnet" are amazing. I don't think they are anything like the patterns on Peppermints, Candy Canes, etc. I suspect they had their origins in one of the parents of one of your commercial F1 hybrids that got mixed into your gene pool. You continue to amaze me with the things that pop up in your naturally mixed gene pool. I think "July Bonnet" should be a breeder. Just selfing it would be justified.

MM

Good evening HC and MM!

The "micro-garden" is quickly becoming full of flowers. The little Persian Carpet and Aztec Summer flowers look like tiny kaleidoscope patterns there among the leaves.

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The Chippendales remind me a little of simple marigolds, but when you look closely, their petal surfaces are velvety.

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The other flowers of the patch are brightening up, too.

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I'm really glad that these were planted this year. They are far more interesting than the catalogs depict.

JG

MM,

This is the first time that I have thought (in "July Bonnet") that the disc flowers are actually kind of an asset in the appearance of the flower.

As you said earlier, this hobby is exremely interesting (and fun).

JG

I agree! I think July bonnet shows lots of potential. I think candy canes have red streaks. This one is not that at all. The streaks are white and don't seem to be on the guard petals. Do I see yellow > orange > red orange > VIOLET? Look at the underside of the yellow petals, then the red orange to see if they are the same.
Even if this were a solid color, the petal forms are interesing. I would self this one.

Z. violacea, peruviana and haageana are all section Zinnia. That's what gave me the idea.
Mules are usually sterile, but once in a while an individual is not. I think that's what happened when whirligig bicolors got crossed into violacea decades ago. They tried enough different specimens until they hit on the rare one that clicked.

Good morning!

There's a lot to do today, but here is a scene of the main garden, as taken from the second story of our house. On an overcast day, it seems the best time to capture the colors.

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One thing, else, after collecting some of the seeds from my crosses, I think I will dry them down and place them in a bead box with big compartments. Some of my crosses are yielding just a small number of seeds. Then, I am afraid to try and grow them green, if in that case they don't make it! One other thing, many years ago, I used to cross flowers by transferring the pollen with a small paintbrush. I think I will try that again for the scabiosas whose stigmas are buried deep in the floret, rather than cutting them open..One crucial step here, though,-- the paintbrushes must be thoroughly cleaned with soap and hot water between uses, then dried down. Off to the craft store later today.....

JG

I'm still learning some basics here, so help me out. On Jackier's 22:47 post of July 25, the very first two flowers posted; what are they? One is a burgundy bicolor and one is yellow.

I checked on my Burpee highlight yesterday. What a disappointment. There were only 6 seeds in the pack, so initially I only planted 2. The one that sprouted is now about 2 1/2 feet long, not tall. It has very narrow leaves and cannot even stand on its own, though it seems to want to. I've staked it and said a prayer. I've planted one more seed in my new garden.

It is a joy to see your photos. I can only share photos to non-hotmail email addresses through my cellphone; not nearly as impressive.

Seed saving: When I opened my '07 seed I found scads of tiny spiders. This year I am saving individual seed heads in tiny brown paper bags. I write in pencil all the info I know about parent plants (number of petals, their type and color; height; date; location; cultivar; # of blooms on plant; pollinator). I sprinkle in some Sevin dust and shake. They will spend a week drying out in the back of my car and then I will transfer them to the sandwich bags with index cards as MM suggested. I'm loving it.

HC,

"Z. violacea, peruviana and haageana are all section Zinnia. That's what gave me the idea. Mules are usually sterile, but once in a while an individual is not. I think that's what happened when Whirligig bicolors got crossed into violacea decades ago. They tried enough different specimens until they hit on the rare one that clicked."

I agree 100%. That is a very important point, so I emphasized it. In the past, people have reported failed results with zinnia breeding experiments that represented a rather limited number of attempts. The temptation has been to "close the book" on those avenues of experimentation and, in my opinion, it is time to "re-open the book".

And, although I am still postponing tissue culture experiments with zinnias for a while, I don't rule out trying my hand at that at some future time when I feel a little more "high tech". My immediate plans are to start acquiring some seeds of other zinnia species. And, of course, to do as much as I can with my Z. violacea recombinants (F2s, F3s, hybrids between hybrids, and such). And I am still trying to select some good specimens from commercial zinnias. That involves growing a lot of them and selecting "only the best".

MM

HC,

"On Jackier's 22:47 post of July 25, the very first two flowers posted; what are they? One is a burgundy bicolor and one is yellow."

JG can confirm this, but I think they are Persian Carpets and possibly Aztec Sunsets. I think that applies to at least the top two rows of her photos in that message. Persian Carpets, Aztec Sunsets, and Chippendales are all Z. haageana.

Some Persian Carpets have a very deep purple color with white or cream tips. The purple can be so deep as to appear almost black in some light. I wish I could get that "purple-black" into Z. violacea. Years ago, there was a small Z. violacea named "Black Ruby" that had that color, so I know that it is possible.

MM

JG,

Your garden looks great, and is also a good asset in the landscape.

Using small artist paintbrushes to apply pollen into the florets of scabiosa flowered zinnias sounds like a good idea, because it is rather tedious to tear the florets open to expose the stigmas. Keep us posted on your progress with that. We might want to adopt your technique.

Some scabiosa flowered zinnias have enough of their stigmas showing that you can pollinate them "the old way" by rubbing with the pollen bearing florets. But pollinating with small brushes has some other potential advantages as well, such as making the pollen "go farther" and getting it applied more directly to the stigmas.

MM

Hello!

From the Fri, Jul 25, 08 22:47 post, all pictures of individual flowers are Persian Carpet (from both T & M and Park)in the first-shown block of four except the Swizzle-like Aztec Sunset in the lower right-hand corner. The others are Persian Carpet and Chippendale (the latter was described as such).

I also like to store my seed in ziploc-type bags (the snack size), as well as big plastic cannisters (for my general naturally-crossed group) when totally dry. But now with my first planned crosses, I want to see my group organized and on display ;-). It's really important that they are completely dried for this though.

HC, why don't you ensure that your flowers are pretty "old," (starting to lose color and drying down), then cut the flower off from the stem and harvest the seed right then. You can pull the petals out of the seedhead, then tear the colored part away from the actual seed. Then, dry the seeds down on newspaper or paper towels in a place that is room temperature or cooler, and dry. The flower is a whole microcosm of creatures. I harvest my flowers and sit outdoors at the picnic table separating out the seeds from the flowerheads. That's when you see all the creatures, who then will NOT come into your house. I think the maturing seeds can take plenty of heat while they are attached to the rest of the plant, but when they have been separated, they are then much more vulnerable to high temperatures! I think storing your seeds in the car may not be good for their viability!

I've used paint brushes to cross day lilies in the past, just to ensure that they produce seeds that I then give to folks who want them. I have never bred daylilies for a planned outcome--just wanted to ensure lots of seeds!

JG

MM,

I'm sure if this cross has been made in the past, it can definitely happen again. It is just a case of persistence!

I don't know if I have as much patience as you have shown as a flower breeder in this particular case. I would be tempted to set up a patch where I had the violaceae of my choice inter-sewn along with the haageana of my choice and let the bees do the work. You will have a myriad of crosses and the seeds that you get will be the offspring that have the best chance (have "taken"). Grow them out and see what you get! I bet if you chose a violaceae that tends to have mostly all-female flowers, along with the pollen-shedding haageana, you would see some possible crosses. That's kind of what I am doing now (by chance, not design) with these new species. The only thing that is bad is that they are a little removed from the violaceae, unless Swizzle is a member, which by the way, Park Seed has included under their elegans (aka violaceae) column in their catalog.

JG

Look at this bouquet-from the new "cutting garden" here!

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JG

Good afternoon!

It's a short break out of the sun here. I am selfing "July Bonnet," who also has a sister blossom appearing which will also be selfed, and whose look is similar to that of the first flower.

I think it will take many crosses to get a possible haageana x violaceae cross to work, maybe thousands! Anyway, I made one today and will report the results if I should get seeds, and then in a while if they germinate.
I crossed a Persian Carpet I call "Black Belt" with a cactus I call "Snowflake." When I spend as much time as I do with flowers, some become personalized..;-).

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JG

Hi all,

Well, I think it might be a good idea to start Part 6. Part 5 turned out to be a surprisingly good and active message thread. See you all over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6.

MM