Well, the previous It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 4 message thread was getting a bit long and unwieldy, so we are continuing it here. To get started, I will show a picture of my zinnia "garden" as it appeared today when I took the picture.

The whole garden doesn't show in the picture, but this was taken standing in the garden looking south from a vantage point in the northern one-third of the garden. So about one third of the garden was behind me, including one bed that was under construction. I'll try to show that in a picture later in this message thread. The garden is essentially a terrace on a rocky slope that falls off toward a small brook that runs through the property.

I am using raised beds of informally heaped soil. By omitting wooden sides for the raised beds, it is easier to till the garden when I need to.

Actually, this semi-panoramic view was stitched together from four partly overlapping portrait format pictures. I was using my Wife's point-and-shoot zoom camera, and it doesn't have a very wide wide-angle zoom setting. I think I will experiment with making 360-degree full circle panoramas in the future. Eventually I will get a camera of my own -- some kind of digital SLR with interchangeable lenses. Probably a Nikon of some sort.

Well, hopefully this thread will get us through the Summer, but don't hesitate to post and don't hesitate to link in your pictures. It is probably a good idea to try to keep the pictures not much wider than 1000 pixels, to avoid putting a horizontal scroll bar on the whole message thread. But when this thread gets long or unwieldy, we can always start another.

MM

Your garden looks good! I'm jealous of all those already-blooming plants. Are those carry-overs from your indoor work? You've got some big ones there. Also, your photo- stitching looks pretty seamless!

Holtzclaw, it will be interesting to see what you get from your crosses. I've always seen in years past that if I don't invest in planting new colors of flowers in my garden
it seems the colors of the flowers end up being mostly purple after naturally-occurring crosses. Also, it seems that consistently, the plants with the purple flowers can always be relied upon, more than any other color of flower, to give many fat seeds with lots of endosperm. Recent papers call "Zinnia elegans" the newer name "Zinnia violacea," and I am pretty sure it is because the ancestors of our most commonly grown zinnia were purple, and from that the many colors were eventually derived. With that said, it seems that the purple color comes from dominant alleles. There is a paper in the Journal of Heredity (1988) 79(4):289-293 that describes some of the inheritance of color in Z. violacea as studied by Boyle and Stimart. My impression (which may not be totally accurate from that paper) is that flowers with the genotype A_C_ are a shade of purple, AAcc (white); aacc (buff); aaC_S2_ (scarlet); aaC_S3_ (flame); aaccyy anyS_ (yellow); aaC_S_ (rose); aaccY_any S_ (coral); aaC_S1_ (brazil red). Anyway, once those two dominant alleles for purple are there, they have a huge influence on resulting crosses! It seems that at least some of your purple parents were hybrids (not true-breeding or homozygous) to get the non-purple offspring upon the first cross, and that the yellows were a combination of lots of recessive alleles, except for the S-type allele. MM, check this for me! I'm off to work, but wanted to offer this info, and would love to see what others may comment on my interpretation...

JG

The already-blooming zinnias were planted indoors last March from seeds saved from crosses I made last year and from crosses among the cutting plants that I started last Fall. I got some seeds from them before the Thrips wiped them out. I have a generation of green-seed plants going into the bed that is "under construction" that didn't show in the picture above. Those green seeds were from some of the zinnias in the picture and from some that aren't outside yet.

I'll try to take a picture of those green-seed seedlings today. Actually, one of those seedlings is blooming now, but it will be classified as a reject and get a free ride to my compost pile.

I was pleased with the automatic pattern matching that my RealViz software achieved in the stitching project. From a visit to their website, I see that I am three versions behind in their update cycle, so I think I will invest the required $90 to upgrade to the current version. Stitching panoramics has been an interest of mine off and on for many years, because I realized that I couldn't afford the wide angle lenses to "take in" everything I wanted in a picture.

I am very pleased that I already have two generations of zinnias this year, with a third generation pending this Summer. I feel that I am making progress. Also, I have a lot of commercial seedlings coming along in seedbeds that I will be very selective with. My compost pile will grow at an unprecedented rate this Summer and Fall.

I'll look into my references on zinnia color inheritance and report back. As usual, you are light-years ahead of me in the scholarship department.

MM

I've never yet thought of putting any zinnias into the compost pile until now--that is usually saved for weeds! But the first of the scabious zinnias from T & M have started to bloom, and I have never seen such small, debilitated flowers! I don't know if they're headed for the compost pile (maybe later flowers from the same plants will be better?), but at least for now, I will nip the flowers off that are on their way to maturing, because I don't want them randomly crossing with some of the other plants! I really hope all the scabiosas aren't like this--we'll see how those from Park look! The ones I have so far look like daisies that are maybe a half an inch in diameter--none have the typical scabious look.

The software for stitching sounds like it would be fun to work with. In terms of photographic software, I have an older version of Photoshop, but am far from mastering all its capabilities.

I'm sure your work in producing all the generations of zinnias in one year is going to pay off. You will get a pretty good understanding of how a lot of the traits are inherited, along with producing some really nice flowers. Am looking forward to seeing what you will get!

JG

BTG

I know I'm being too lengthy here. Maybe you'll bear with me. Thanks Jackier for the reference on ray color genes; especially for typing out all the genotypes. Dumb me, I thought I could go straight to the article and devour, but of course, one needs a subscription to a periodical. I can't get it through interlibrary loan, so I'll need to visit a university library. I discovered that data gleaned from that article also appears in chapter 12 of Flower Breeding and Genetics: Issues, Challenges, and Opportunities. I have a lot of ideas racing about, but will save most for another day.
My pressing dumb question of the day is: How do I know that I'm actually pollinating a flower? or am I just rubbing a spent disk floret round and round? Do the disk florets that were there yesterday magically pump out new pollen each morning? Must I choose a disk floret that has just appeared that morning for the first time?

"My pressing dumb question of the day is: How do I know that I'm actually pollinating a flower? or am I just rubbing a spent disk floret round and round? Do the disk florets that were there yesterday magically pump out new pollen each morning? Must I choose a disk floret that has just appeared that morning for the first time?"

As they say, there are no dumb questions. Yes, you do need to use new florets each day, because zinnia pollen doesn't stay viable beyond 24 hours, and is probably losing viability after 12 hours. That's too bad, because if zinnia pollen did retain viability for a longer period, we could trade zinnia pollen by mail. Maybe JG can explain about "tri-nucleate" zinnia pollen.

If you watch the new florets unfold each morning, you can actually see the new pollen being pushed up into the center of the floret. It looks like a yellow powder to the naked eye.

Several species of bees collect the pollen as food, so for really choice pollen donors I protect the flowers from the bees with "hairnet" style flower bags. I'll repeat the picture from a previous message so you don't have to go searching through this whole string of message threads to find it. It is held together with a string of black yarn. I use a long knitting needle and alternate the yarn from one side to the other about every ¾ inch. The bags have proved to surprisingly durable and I will be re-using some this year. Occasionally the wind blows one off and you have to put it back on. They have been very effective for me, assuring that I get a good supply of available pollen. I make my nets out of some fabric I found at Wal-Mart.

I use a small pair of forceps to pinch out a fresh floret and I rub it on the stigmas of chosen female breeders. You don't have to rub hard, and you have to be a little careful with a "full" floret, because the yellow pollen can fall right out. I usually use all of the fresh florets from a breeder, unless it is putting out a very large number of florets that morning. And I don't admire zinnias that produce a lot of pollen, but that is a matter of personal preference. The prize-winning Zowie zinnia "throws pollen" like crazy.

The timing of the pollen emergence varies with environmental conditions. On a warm, sunny morning the pollen will emerge rather early in the morning. On a cooler, cloudy day the pollen may not emerge until early afternoon. If you don't use something protective like the net bags, the bees will "beat you to the pollen" and get most of it. However, a floret that has been raided by a bee usually retains some pollen in the little yellow brush arms of the floret, but it might not all be from that zinnia. Incidentally, I observed that butterflies can sip nectar through the openings in the net fabric. I rather like that, and the butterflies don't interfere with my cross pollination activities. They don't eat pollen.

Our experience with purples has been variable. As I mentioned, I got of lot of yellows, oranges, and pinks from a chosen purple "breeder" last year. And I fully expected a lot of purples.

MM

"I've never yet thought of putting any zinnias into the compost pile until now--that is usually saved for weeds! But the first of the scabious zinnias from T & M have started to bloom, and I have never seen such small, debilitated flowers!"

Your experience is similar to mine. Only about 5 percent of field-grown scabiosa flowered zinnias "come true". That is a source of great annoyance to most people, and they lodge complaints against the seed companies.

The seed growers, who are basically farmers who grow a product for sale to seed companies, don't understand that some varieties must be vigorously rogued in order to maintain reasonable purity of the strain. That certainly hasn't happened with any of the commercial scabiosa flowered zinnias that I have grown.

In my opinion, the ultimate result of this is that the scabiosa flowered zinnias will disappear from all of the seed catalogs, and they will go "extinct" just like the Black Ruby zinnia did and like the Crown-of-Gold strain did (golden yellow at the base of every petal with all colors on the outer sections) and, unfortunately, many other zinnias of distinction, some of which were actually All-America Selection award winners.

"I really hope all the scabiosas aren't like this--we'll see how those from Park look!"

I don't think the Parks scabiosas will perform any better than those from T&M. In fact, Parks has already dropped them from their catalog. I bought several packets from Parks last year in a "discontinued" sale. Hopefully I will get a few good specimens from that purchase, but that isn't a certainty.

As a zinnia enthusiast, I don't mind growing two dozen plants to get a single good specimen, but the average gardener is not so forgiving. I won't be at all surprised to see the retail sources of scabiosa flowered zinnias vanish. A similar thing happened with the Howard's Crested strain a few decades ago.

My zinnia compost pile is already growing this Summer. And I expect to be discarding them by the hundreds before Fall. As the saying goes, "No pain, no gain."

MM

I mentioned picture width guidelines (about 1000 pixels) earlier in this thread. However, as an experiment, I replaced the picture of my garden at the beginning of this thread with a wider version stitched from 5 pictures instead of 4. I also used my "new" version of the stitching software that I upgraded to yesterday. The picture is now 1200 pixels wide, which is wider than the previous one, which was 992 pixels wide. It won't cause a scroll bar on screens with resolutions of 1280 x 1024 or 1280 x 768 (or other widths of 1280 or greater), but 1200 pixels will definitely cause a scroll bar on smaller screens (1024 x 768 for example).

The greater width of 1200 pixels allows for wider pictures with no problems on many screens and, if it doesn't inconvenience many people, we will continue to allow the wider pictures in this thread. If it is a major annoyance, I will replace the picture with the original 992-pixel version and we will return to a self-imposed 1000 pixel limit.

Actually, a 1280 width screen can display pictures here that are 1220 pixels wide, but the result looks rather "tight" in this forum format, so I decided that I voluntarily didn't want to go that wide. But if anyone wanted to use 1220 pixels, they could without causing any more actual problems than the 1200 pixels pictures.

To see the changed wider picture, you will need to "refresh" your screen (F5 key or menu View>Refresh). Let us know how well the wider picture is tolerated.

Keeping the picture file sizes well under 1 MB is still a good idea.

MM

About purple zinnias--you have to consider all the alleles that are present in your gene pool. If you have some purple zinnias that are pure-breeding, then their contribution to the pool can affect the phenotypes of the offspring quite a bit if the purple plants represent a good fraction of the total plants. If they represent a relatively small fraction and are hybrids for color, then their effect won't be so noticeable, even when half of the alleles they have for color are dominant.

But, I can't help but wonder if there isn't some sort of selective advantage for these plants with the purple flowers--like, possibly the pollinators might prefer them because of some linked traits that aren't apparent to us, or, that they manage to produce more viable seeds per flower. I think I have provided a hypothesis for a science fair project ;-)..I just know that when I'm collecting seeds from purple flowers, I can always get more from them than from the flowers with other colors, and if I plant all the seeds I have from that year, then there, again, is another factor that contributes to more purple zinnias!

Concerning the pollen grain, it actually has two haploid cells, one of which then divides to form two haploid sperm cells. One of the sperm cells fertilizes the egg in the flower to make the first diploid cell of the new plant embryo, and the other provides 1/3 of the genetic material for the endosperm of the seed (I think I have that right).

Well, anyway, it's late to try and recollect what I learned long ago! I look forward to seeing more pictures of flowers that everyone gets! MM, your garden picture looked fine on my screen...the ad to the right of the picture didn't all quite make it though..

Holtzclaw and brockthegreek, let's see what you get, too!

JG

"But, I can't help but wonder if there isn't some sort of selective advantage for these plants with the purple flowers--like, possibly the pollinators might prefer them because of some linked traits that aren't apparent to us, or, that they manage to produce more viable seeds per flower. I think I have provided a hypothesis for a science fair project ;-)..I just know that when I'm collecting seeds from purple flowers, I can always get more from them than from the flowers with other colors..."

My guess would be that it has something to do with the sight of the pollinator insects. Bees and butterflies have different optical sensors than we do and actually see in parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, including in the ultraviolet spectrum, that are invisible to our limited RGB rods and cones.

You may have seen some pictures of flowers taken as they would appear in the ultraviolet spectrum. There are a few multi-spectral imaging digital cameras that have been modified to take pictures in the infrared and ultraviolet parts of the spectrum, in addition to our "visible" part of the spectrum. Someone in Dave's Garden suggested that I might want to purchase one of those cameras, such as the Fujifilm FinePix S3 Pro UVIR, to take pictures of zinnias in the ultraviolet spectrum, mainly to judge which ones would be most effective in butterfly gardens.

I found the idea intriguing, but those cameras are so expensive that I felt it wouldn't be worth it to me just to compare the relative attractiveness of my zinnias to insects. Museums and law enforcement departments use such cameras for forensic and art examinations, but they can afford them.

However, I suspect that purple zinnias may appear more attractive in the ultraviolet spectrum than other zinnia colors. And I think various kinds of bees do see in the ultraviolet. That kind of information could be relevant to your potential science project. A university might already have an ultraviolet sensing camera.

MM

I think I've seen some of those ultraviolet patterns as visible to the insects, in photographs. That is really a fascinating area of study. I would guess that there are other aspects that make certain flowers more attractive to pollinators like scents, tactile characteristics, flavor and other qualities of pollen and nectar, etc.

I think I will venture out in the light rain we have now to see how things are going in the garden. Hopefully, in the next week, I will be able to submit some photos of what I am seeing thus far.

JG

The kid inside me got the best of me this morning. I know color is only one aspect of zinnias, but it intrigues me. I took a couple of petals of two of my favorite blooms. I taped each one to a blank paper. I noted on the paper which were the donor blooms. I took them to Home Depot and put them on their computer for a color match. I matched the code numbers it gave me to take-home paint chip cards which gave me a "color name". I thought that might help me compare colors of specific lines from year to year. All of my purples this year look very raspberry to me. I don't remember that being true last year, but only have my poor mind for a reference.

"On parts one through four I was able to see the entire width of each post on my screen. Even before the photo starting part 5 was widened, I was having to scroll back and forth to read each line. If I didn't have tennis elbow it might not be a problem."

I was afraid the wider pictures might cause a problem for some people. I know how annoying it can be to have to scroll back and forth to read text, even if you don't have a tennis elbow.

I will look for some way to make just the pictures themselves scrollable. In the meantime, I have "squeezed" the offending wide picture to 992 pixels, so the problem should be gone in Part 5 now. If it isn't, simply refresh your screen. The important thing is convenient communication, and scrolling can interfere with that.

MM

Our rain and warm weather continues, and the zinnias are starting to respond. So far, in one fairly long row of scabious zinnias, it looks like I am getting one that may be true to form, but small.

The Big Reds from Park are no disappointment. They are about 18" now and growing taller by the day, with lots of branches with buds. Here is one, still in the process of filling out.

I love tall, bright flowers. I am keeping my fingers crossed this plant is not a tetraploid. I will call Park and find out. If it is, I will cross it with others of its kind.

I have some Park Envies that are coming along. One plant is variegated. I'm anxious to see what the flowers will look like! I wonder if this may be a characteristic found in a few of the green zinnias. MM, have you seen this?

JG

No, I haven't seen that sort of foliage variegation in zinnias. I am not a big fan of variegation, but apparently a lot of people like it, considering the number of variegated cultivars of various plants that are available. The variegation may portend something interesting in the flowers. That Big Red is so red that it almost hurts my eyes. Wow! Happy Fourth!

MM

Hi MM, I noticed you are using Photobucket. In photobucket you can choose the size of 15" monitor, which will automatically reduce your picture size to a maximum of 800x600. That will save you a step and you don't have to reduce the pictures yourself.

Plus I am a little late in preparing my gardening beds, and everything is late now. So I thought I should at least grow some annuals to add the root materials to improve the soil for next year. I went out to the stores and search for some quick annuals and found that Zinnia can bloom in 35-60 days, so I still have time for this year.

The problem is HD and Lowes have all removed their seed racks, so none from there. I only found some in Walmart and got only the "Giant Cactus Flowered, Mixed Colors" and "Giant Double, Mixeds Colors." They didn't have the more interesting hybrids. I will check another store later today.

Now I have a few questions for newbies. If this is not the right thread, could you point me to the right one? Thanks in advance!

1. If I cross cactus and cactus, will I get cactus type only?

2. Same question of double.

3. If I cross the double and the cactus, will I get some interesting petal shapes? Well, at least, will there be new/different petal shapes?

4. It looks like zinnia has composite flowers (I forgot the exact term), but each "petal" is actually a flower in itself, right? So when you cross, do you only cross one petal and that will give you many seeds, or do you have to cross many petals from one composite flower?

I am sure these questions have been answered many times before, so ...

5. Is there any site or book that deals specifically on breeding zinnia? like the dominant traits in color, shape, etc.? I will do some searching, but if you happen to know, I would appreciate if you could share the information.

Many many thanks in advance!

I think MM can best answer your questions as to what to expect in the crosses you mentioned. This is the first year I have made planned crosses, but I can say that my experience is that the cactus-type zinnias tend to not reappear in great numbers from one year to the next, and with that, it seems that the trait would be recessive, or sometimes contributes to plants that have intermediate-looking petals.

Through all the threads of this conversation (see links at beginning for Parts 1, 2, 3, and 4), you will find references to a number of publications that are informative regarding zinnia genetics.

You can find some good seeds in stores, but the storage conditions and selection may not be all that great. You are better off ordering from a catalog of a seed company where you are most likely able to get better seeds in those aspects. Park Seed, Stokes, Johnny's Select, and Burpee are examples. Usually you can order online and receive seeds within a week or so.

JG

The plants are growing quickly, and so are the weeds, so I pulled some today. I have a small raised bed (my raised beds are like yours, MM, in the sense that I have no sides to them) with many of my little zinnias. They are probably too crowded, but the soil is good, so they will bloom OK, I think. This is what its like, with zinnias like Yellow and Red Peruvian, some Swizzles, Classic White, Persian Carpet, Old Mexico, Aztec Sunset, Red Spider, Chippendale, Perfusion, etc.

Here is the first of the Red Spider flowers:

Here is a little patch of Swizzles. The flower to the upper right has a black chastity veil--and is awaiting the proper mate ;-)..

JG

"1. If I cross cactus and cactus, will I get cactus type only?"

They will be mostly cactus types, although quite a bit of variation exists within what is referred to as cactus flowered. Open pollinated zinnia seed is largely bee-pollinated, and a significant fraction of bee pollination is with pollen already carried by the bee, such that a packet of cactus flowered zinnia seed already contains some hybrids between other cactus flowered specimens in the field. So our experiments with zinnias are quite a bit different from the classic experiments by Mendel.

"2. Same question of double."

Essentially the same answer as for cactus flowered. There are different degrees of "doubleness" in zinnias, as measured by the number of rows of petals that form the flower. In recent weeks, I have come to prefer a double form that doesn't have a large number of rows of petals. I now prefer flowers with between four and six rows of petals, because they allow the different zones of color on the individual petals to be seen. The formal fully double flowers pile row on row of petals, such that only a little of each individual petal is visible.

"3. If I cross the double and the cactus, will I get some interesting petal shapes? Well, at least, will there be new/different petal shapes?"

You will get some intermediate shapes, which may or may not be interesting to you. I think by "double" you may mean "dahlia flowered", because the cactus flowered zinnias are also double.

"4. It looks like zinnia has composite flowers (I forgot the exact term), but each "petal" is actually a flower in itself, right? So when you cross, do you only cross one petal and that will give you many seeds, or do you have to cross many petals from one composite flower?"

Each petal has a seed at its base. Each floret also has a seed at its base. Each seed is independently separately pollinated. The seed of a floret is usually selfed with the pollen that its floret bears. Petal seeds can be selfed with nearby floret pollen or crossed with pollen that you or a bee supply from a different zinnia. As you said, a zinnia is a composite.

"5. Is there any site or book that deals specifically on breeding zinnia? like the dominant traits in color, shape, etc.? I will do some searching, but if you happen to know, I would appreciate if you could share the information."

As JG said, several sources have been mentioned in previous parts of this series on zinnia breeding for everybody. For me, the best single reference has been Flower Breeding and Genetics edited by Neil O. Anderson. Its Chapter 12, ZINNIA, is written by Dennis Stimart and Thomas Boyle, who are prominent in zinnia breeding research. There are, of course, many other sources with some information on zinnia breeding, but not all are readily available or accessible. As far as I know, there is no book specifically on zinnia breeding for the amateur, although there are several books with information for amateur breeding of various ornamentals.

"I went out to the stores and searched for some quick annuals and found that Zinnias can bloom in 35-60 days, so I still have time for this year."

I don't know of any zinnia that would bloom in 35 days from a planted seed. If you are buying zinnia plants, 35 days would be possible. In fact, some zinnia plants may be sold already in bloom. But zinnias do grow rapidly and bloom quickly, so there is still time for you to do some significant zinnia breeding this year.

I agree with JG that ordering seed from seed companies gives you a better selection. And seeds on seed racks in stores may not have been kept under the best of conditions.

I have ordered seed from many different companies, although I think I have gotten the most prompt shipping from Stokes Seeds. I received an order of Whirligig zinnia seed from them last Monday or Tuesday that I placed online on June 26.

You mentioned that you like dahlia flowered zinnias. This is a picture of a specimen that I had last year that reminded me more of a dahlia than the commercial dahlia flowered zinnias (partly because it has broader petals.)

I hope to get some more like it this year, but with a few more petals and in a range of colors. Zinnia breeding is full of surprises, and I wish you the best of luck.

MM

This is another specimen with big "dahlia like" petals.

As odd as it might seem, I think both of those big-petaled hybrids inherited key genes from scabiosa flowered grandparents. I have been growing and cross-pollinating scabiosa flowered zinnias with other zinnias since "way back" in 2006.

The scabiosa flowered zinnias are unique in that they blur the line between petals and disk florets. As JG has confirmed, growing scabiosa flowered zinnias is a bit frustrating, because only about 5% of them come "true" from commercial seed packets. That means that a typical 50-seed seed packet might give you only one to four true-to-type plants. With those odds, you might not get any "as pictured" plants. The scabiosa flowered strain has seriously "run out" under field-grown conditions. But it can be worth the gamble to obtain a few good ones. You can then produce your own improved strain for further cross-pollinating.

If nothing else, zinnia breeding is a gamble, because the process of genetic recombination is inherently random. So you are almost certain of producing a lot of candidates for the compost pile.

But those odds are acceptable for someone who is intent on breeding different looking zinnias. I suspect that the DNA spirals of zinnias are still hiding many pleasant surprises, perhaps hidden genes from prehistoric zinnias, and that is why I enjoy gambling with the genetic odds.

MM

Your soil must be very rich and productive, to produce usable zinnias under such densely spaced conditions. I have planted a lot of zinnias seeds in beds with rather close spacing too, but I am having to supplement my sandy loam with almost hydroponic-like waterings containing soluble nutrients. A Dramm Syphonject is helping with that.

As soon as the blooms appear, I will be very selective and many will be snipped out to go to the compost pile. As closely spaced as mine are, I will probably do some culling before the blooms appear, based on leaf form (preferring long and narrow over short and rounded), vigor, and stem thickness.

Wow! Your Red Spider (Z. tenuifolia ?) looks tempting to cross with something. I better do a little research on whether that is likely to lead to something good.

Let us know what the tetraploid/diploid verdict is on "Big Red". I haven't seen the answer to that anywhere. I had always assumed it was diploid, but the "waxy petal" description by Parks now has me wondering.

I, too, have been doing some weeding in my seed beds. Much of it "the hard way", with just my fingers. I need to get a better hand hoe for close-in weeding. I wonder if those old single-edge razors and razor blades are still available.

MM

MM, yes, the last two are the types I like, the dahlia-looking flowers, though I imagine zinnia don't have to look like dahlia, so maybe I will use that as a start only....

I am going to order some seeds for superseeds.com. They have some zinnias, dahlia type too. They don't include a picture for this, maybe wisely and honestly.

I, too, weed with my hands, thus I have a rather black-green looking right hand, as I hate to wear gloves.

If the crowded conditions in my small zinnia bed seem to hurt my flowers, I will wait for a rainy day and move some to a new location. I was amazed at some of the seed sizes! The White Classics were tiny, for example, and I didn't really expect them all to germinate! The Red Spider flowers are interesting, but I have yet to find out what the chromosome number is!

My mixed-descendent zinnias are beginning to bloom, and I always look forward to seeing what appears from day to day!
Up to this year, the last time I bought and planted Swizzle seeds must have been 2002 or 2003. Yet, I keep seeing their characteristics pop up in later generations. And, talk about purple being persistant. Here is a Swizzle-like purple/fuschia flower, but the plant is coming up with the majority of my tall zinnias, now about 20" tall.

And, this is a little one, about 1 1/2" wide, but it's got interesting color combinations. I am crossing it with a bright yellow Benary type "female" plant, and will see what happens.

JG

That little one really is odd. The color touches look like they were daubed on with a watercolor brush. And the petals have odd double creases. I can't imagine where those characteristics came from. The cross with the Benary should give it some size.

MM

You need to use HTML to get direct image imbeds in this forum. For example, if you type

<img src="http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/ll349/brockthegreek/flowers/CandyCaneZinnia-yellowbicolor1a.jpg">

you will get

MM

Well, I just goofed, too! I just linked in your 1024 x 775 pixel picture and that is too big for 1024 x 768 pixel screens without causing a scrollbar on this whole message thread for people like davemichigan with smaller monitors. That's going to cause a lot of annoying scrolling for Dave and others.

You can replace a picture on PhotoBucket by deleting the existing one (ignore the breaking links warning, because you are going to replace the picture) and then upload its replacement, with the very same name, to that same album.

Check Dave's messages above. I use 992 wide pictures to be "on the safe side" in forums like Dave's Garden, that have a strict 1000 pixels width limit. Occasionally some software misinterprets 1000 pixels as "out of bounds" and resizes your picture, with some quality degradation. So I went to 992 pixels to be on the safe side.

Incidentally, JG, back in Part 4 you included a couple of pictures that got inserted side-by-side. The first was JungOKMix.jpg (640 x 473) and the second was SSEGift.jpg (640 x 480). The combination is 1280 pixels wide, which also triggers a scroll bar for Part 4 on 1024 x 768 and smaller screens.

There are a couple of fixes for that. You could scale down both JungOKMix and SSEGift to 496 pixels wide each, so that their total width would be 992 pixels. Actually, if it were me, I would go into Photoshop and create a new JungOKMix that consisted of the old JungOKMix with the old SSEGift directly under it. That would get both images aligned in an over-and-under orientation, with a width of 640 pixels. Then I would create a new SSEGift that was a few pixels wide and solid white. It would be a narrow "invisible dummy" replacement for the original SSEGift.

If we could edit our messages here in GardenWeb, you could go back and place a couple of blank lines between the JungOKMix and the SSEGift and that would put them in an over-and-under orientation with a little margin between them, but, as you know, we can't edit our messages here. So the "fix" has to occur in PhotoBucket, where you can change just about anything.

MM

That's a good looking Whirligig, but I am discouraged to hear that so few had bicolors. I just planted about six packets of Burpee Whirligigs a few days ago. Oh well. I also planted a bunch of Stokes' Whirligigs and hopefully they will do better. I also have an order in to Veseys for some of their Zig Zags and they are supposed to be bi-colored as well.

I see that your second picture is also 1024 x 797 pixels and it is also too wide for smaller computer screens. If you substitute a narrower picture on PhotoBucket it would be helpful to people like Dave who have smaller computer monitors.

MM

I have my display temporarily set at 1024 x 768 to see what is going on here for those displays. There is a scrollbar in all five Parts of these message threads, but it is not a huge problem in Parts 1,2,3, and 5(yet), in that you can leave the scrollbar at a single setting and read the messages with 992 pictures OK. Those pictures are slightly cropped, but that's not a big problem. I notice that my 992 pictures are also slightly cropped when the scroll bar is all the way to the left, but there is an intermediate setting of the scrollbar that shows the entire picture (just barely) and leaves the text readable in all positions.

Those messages with 1024 pictures do have a problem, in that those messages are formatted so that, in general, you do have to scroll back and forth to read their text, but the problem is apparently local to those messages. It is apparently optional whether you want to change those 1024 pictures because only those individual messages are inconvenient to read. However, messages with embedded 1024 pictures can require line-by-line text scrolling within that message.

I'm going to leave my 992 pictures as they are, because there a lot of them and, with the proper scrollbar setting, their text can be read without scrolling while showing the entire picture as well.

I ran an experiment in my temporary 1024 x 768 display, and determined that a scrollbar does not appear here in GardenWeb for a 987 pixel picture, but does appear for a 988 pixel picture or anything wider. In the future I plan to create my pictures at 987 pixels or below. Right now, I am thinking that 986 pixels will be my new "standard" size. It was just dumb luck that my 992 pixel pictures can be tolerated by 1024 x 768 screens.

JG, the situation in Part 4 is more drastic, in that you inadvertently created a picture display that is 1280 pixels wide. For reasons that I don't understand, that apparently causes all of the text in Part 4 to require scrolling in a 1024 x 768 monitor. So all of the 1024x768 screens out there would appreciate it if you changed the current PhotoBucket situation with respect to those two pictures (JungOKMix.jpg and SSEGift.jpg). Apparently the GardenWeb software reacts differently to that situation.

I had no idea what a can of worms I was opening when I tried that 1200-pixel panoramic at the beginning of this message thread, and changed it to 992 pixels when it caused problems. But I guess it was a good idea to see how these messages look on a 1024 x 768 screen.

MM

"...actually I have a large monitor so scrolling is not a problem for me..."

Oh, I forgot. It was Holtzclaw who had the 1024 monitor. Is the PhotoBucket thing something that can be set now to affect pictures that have been previously uploaded? Is it done on an album-by-album basis, or is it global?

MM

"...Where in Maine are you?"

I am in Manchester, which borders Augusta on the West. We live in a very wooded area, and today we saw wild turkeys on our back lawn. My daughter is concerned that she may have seen a mountain lion a few days ago, although it could have been a big bobcat.

MM

I tried to solve that issue with the side-by-side pictures that required a wide screen by editing the size of the two photos as they were stored in Photobucket last night. That apparently didn't work as they still appeared the same!

I now just deleted those two photos from Photobucket, and for me I still see the same images in Part 4. The only thing I can guess is that Photobucket honors and acts on the requests for edit after a period of time....or that there is a memory of sorts in the Forum....

Sorry!

JG

Computer folks..clarify or correct if I'm way off base!

JG

Some of the zinnias I planted Saturday night are up in less than 48 hours. They appear to be as anxious as I. I was able to find Burpee 2008 seed in varieties that are not in their catalog nor website. One is Starlight Mix (not Starbright). I bought it just because it might not be around again.
What is a good source for scabiosa type seed?

MM, I searched the help and FAQ of Photobucket, but I couldn't find a way to batch process or album process images that have been uploaded.

One can change the default size so that further uploads will be reduced to a certain size, however.

Pictures are stored in your local computer's C-drive in C:\Windows\Temporary Internet Files\ so it doesn't have to keep downloading them. You can force your browser to "refresh" the pictures by re-downloading them by viewing the picture(s) and depressing the F5 key, or do a menu View>Refresh (whose keyboard short is F5). Incidentally, the two pictures do now show as deleted, so that problem in Part 4 is solved, if not elegantly.

However, the two alternatives that I suggested would have worked, too. Actually, I think you could still do either of them. Our un-editable messages continue to hold those links whether they are broken or not, and if you uploaded smaller pictures with the same names, the links would no longer be broken and would link to your resized versions. Because your browser still looks in Temporary Internet Files first, you would still need to do an F5 to show them.

MM

"What is a good source for scabiosa type seed?"

As I have mentioned in previous messages, the commercial field-grown scabiosa flowered strain has "run out". Parks Seed dropped them this year and I won't be surprised to see other seed catalogs follow suit in the next year or so.

Commercial scabiosa flowered seeds come only about 5% true. Maybe less. Approximately one in twenty seeds will be a true scabiosa flowered specimen. The solution is to plant enough scabiosa flowered seed to get a few good ones and then save seed from your own plants.

For whatever reason, Thompson & Morgan have made a deep price cut to their Scabiosa Flowered zinnia seed. I wonder if they, too, are discontinuing them.

Right off hand, I don't have another link to a scabiosa flowered zinnia source, but there probably are some. Your best bet is to become your own source by selfing and inter-crossing your selected few good scabiosa flowered specimens.

MM

"MM, I searched the help and FAQ of Photobucket, but I couldn't find a way to batch process or album process images that have been uploaded. One can change the default size so that further uploads will be reduced to a certain size, however."

Thanks for going to the trouble to obtain that information. I am going to leave my existing 992-wide pics alone, but when I upload new pics they will be limited to 986 pixels wide.

MM

Yes, I have had several experiences with plan-of-three zinnia specimens and I have saved seeds from some and grown them hoping to get a strain. So far that hasn't worked. I have even had one instance of side branches being on a plan of three. Sometimes the plan-of-three shows up in the petal's stigmas. I guess a stigma with three arms would have a better chance of being pollinated.

I personally would like to get a plan-of-three strain going, but apparently it isn't going to be easy. I think the three-leaved plants have the potential for being more branched, with a more "symmetrical" looking plant. But, unfortunately the three-leaved thing has been very elusive. Sometimes I call them "threesies" and abbreviate that as "3Z" on their identification tags.

Oddly, I had a zinnia that was four-leaved, among my grown-from-cuttings group.

I think the process of creating a zinnia plant from a cutting may induce some variations somehow, although I don't know what the cause is.

MM

A few messages up, Holtzclaw asked for a source of scabiosa flowered zinnia seed, and the only one I had on file was Thompson & Morgan.

As it happened, they were having a special sale, that only goes on through July 9th, on some of their seeds at 99¢ per packet, including their scabiosa flowered zinnias. The scabiosa flowered zinnias were regularly $2.95 per 200 seed packet, so in my opinion, this is quite a deal. I ordered some more for myself, to add to my "gene pool".

This 99¢ packet deal also applies to several other of their zinnias, so this might be a good time to pick up some "bargain" zinnia seeds. But the sale ostensibly does go on only through July 9th (tomorrow, as I write this).

In case GardenWeb is concerned that this is an advertisement, it isn't. I am in no way associated with Thompson & Morgan, other than as a customer. I am just rendering, how do you say, "a public service message."

MM

Brockthegreek, if you can take a picture of the plant with the three different flowers, I think we would all like to see it! It sounds like you have some real genetic instability in that plant--unpredictability, too..and, you have something very interesting. Your orange whirlygig has great colors.
Holtzclaw, my plant with the variegated leaves has no flowers yet. I don't think I prefer variegation in zinnia plants, but I'm real curious to see how the flowers look.
We look forward to seeing how your Starlights look!

My plants from Rich Farm called "Zigzag" are starting to bloom, and so far, all are yellow and/or white striped with red--not what I expected. I thought they would be more like the whirligig type.

MM, I called Park about Big Red, and the horticulturist surprised me when he said, "they never tell us anything about the (ploidy) of the flowers." Anyway, I am going to assume Big Red is diploid and go ahead and make some crosses with it, and also allow it to self-cross. I was also curious about the chromosome number of Red Spider zinnias (Z. tenuifolia), couldn't find the answer, so wrote a note asking the USDA about that.

Below is an unexpected flower coming from T & M Envy seeds--

This is among the first of the cactus-flowered zinnias:

Here is another--hopefully the other flowers on this plant will be better balanced in shape--the colors are nice:

JG

The shape of that last zinnia may have been environmental. I have had zinnias force their buds against some restraint, which can mechanically deform their development.

The middle cactus is a nice pale pink with good "substance". Its center parts are an interesting contrasting dark red. I hope I remember to look up the name of that part of a zinnia's anatomy. It appears to me that their color is a relevant attribute of a zinnia flower.

The top "Envy" specimen is apparently some kind of mutant variation.

Rich Farm seems like a rather "off brand" seed source, almost a Mom & Pop operation. Is there some reason why you chose them as a seed source? Apparently there is no relation between their Zigzag and Vesey's Zig Zag.

MM

I also ordered some red spiders, so I will be curious to know what you can learn about them. Another zinnia I'd like to know about chromosome number/species is Burpee's highlight. The one highlight specimen I have is a very lanky "vine". About every inch and a half it has two narrow leaves. This seems to be going on indefinitely with no branching nor budding.

Rich Farm also advertises scabiosa zinnias, but I have never been able to get anyone on the phone nor have they returned my calls. They have whirlygigs as well as zig zags and a nice variety of Indian corn.

Burpee's Highlight Hybrid looks suspiciously like another Zinnia marylandica, like Sakata's Profusions and Burpee's Pinwheels. It would also most likely be a segmental allopolyploid (a particularly "un-cooperative" version of an allotetraploid) and unsuitable for crossbreeding with Zinnia violacea (Z. elegans). I don't plan to grow Highlight, although it does have a good bright yellow color.

Your comment that you had some difficulty finding the T&M website surprised me. I hope you know that the colored underlined sections of text here are hyperlinks that you can click on.

I wonder if the Rich Farm scabiosa zinnias are better than the "run-out" strains that other seed companies have. I think Rich Farm grows at least some of their seed themselves, so it is possible that their scabiosa seeds are improved by roguing out the off-type ones. Maybe JG can tell us how she buys seeds from Rich Farms. It hadn't occurred to me that they might not have an online store.

MM

I appreciate the hyperlinks; it's like someone doing my work for me. Actually I had been searching for T&M before you posted the link and before I knew what the letters stood for. It had been mentioned in a previous thread as a source for scabiosa type zinnias.

Rich Farm is set up for online purchasing. I just always want to make contact with a human beforehand.

"I had posted a response yesterday, but it's gone today. Did anyone see it?"

Your response, Posted by holtzclaw z7 GA (My Page) on Wed, Jul 9, 08 at 11:00 is visible. If you sent one after that, it is possible that you forgot to press the "Submit Message" button after doing a "Preview Message". Also, to insure that you are viewing the latest version of the thread, press the F5 button or View>Refresh.

MM

After viewing your pale Envy specimen, I am encouraged to cross green zinnias with white zinnias. In my view, the frosty pastel look of the green/white looks better than the regular light green color of Envy. Now I need to get that in a "spider flowered" flower form.

MM

It's been a beautiful day out here. I have a lot of flowers coming now, and I spent lot of time today just looking to see what there was.

The reason I bought from Rich Farm Garden was because it was a supplier here in Indiana and I liked the look of their Whirlygig flowers. The Zigzags were not shown. Funny, I was going to place the link here, then I saw a link for "DavesGarden.com" and checked it out. It had a whole lot of negative comments on Rich's from a number of customers. I don't really have any, though.. I got my seeds in about two weeks, and the Whirlygigs have all been true to type so far, although not nearly as double as pictured on the Rich site. The Zigzags are different than I expected--they are all red stripes on white and yellow backgrounds. Anyway, I guess the Daves Garden site might be worth looking at regarding Rich.

MM, I wondered about the off-type plant I found in with the Envies. I thought if Envies are hybrids, it may be that the light flower was the offspring of a selfed parent. Maybe?

Today I found two nice orange flowers coming from T & M Seeds. The first was a cactus-type:

The second was a scabious type. This is the first time I've seen a solid orange one. It is almost 3" across.

Here is one of my zinnias coming from my naturally crossed plants of last year--yellow and curly with a light center!

I think those featherly structures we see in the center of the flowers may be "chaffy scales."
JG

Excellent zinnias! That big orange scabi is much larger than usual for out-of-the-packet, and it looks like a perfect specimen. That would definitely be a breeder. The highly curled petals on the yellow based white are also quite novel. I think I would use it as a breeder just for the potential novelty of the hybrids. The cactus is classic cactus. I like them, although I am trying to breed toward more slender-petaled spider flowered zinnias.

I am encouraged that you got that good orange scabiosa flowered one from T&M seeds. I just ordered a bunch of the 99¢ packets of scabiosa flowered zinnias from them.

I think Envy is open pollinated, although your odd specimen may have been a gratuitous bee F1 hybrid with an unknown specimen.

I have been active from time to time in Dave's Garden. They charge for membership and I pay. They used to give a numerical rating to seed companies based on the number of negative reports. A lot of people, myself included, objected to that because large companies like Burpee's and Parks would naturally have a higher number of negative reports, based simply on the greater number of customers that they have. I argued that Dave's Garden should base the score on the negatives per number of seed orders filled, but they pretended to not understand why the size of the business should be taken into account and said that didn't have access to the number of customers. When pressed, they admitted they had never requested the number of customers or orders filled information.

Enough people objected so that they removed the "scores", but as you have noted, they still publish both the positive reports and the negative reports. And there are still people afraid to buy from Burpee or Parks based on bad scores that Dave's Garden published for them previously. I personally think that Dave's Garden did those people a disservice.

However, I am puzzled that Rich Farms distributed a striped zinnia as Zigzag, when a two-tone Whirligig style zinnia is marketed by Veseys as Zig Zag. A minor difference in spelling doesn't make it "right" in my opinion. But no big deal. You can't expect too much from a Mom and Pop operation. However, a lot of negative comments about Rich Farms is somewhat significant, because they are a relatively small operation compared to the Burpee's, Parks, Stokes, etc.

Yes, "chaffy scales" is what they are called. This BackyardNature page backs you up on that. I am not too wild about the name, because I think they make up an important part of the flower and, in my opinion, "chaffy scales" belittles their role in the flower structure. But a word is just a word. Sticks and stones.

Since you now have at least one "breeder" class scabiosa flowered specimen, this might be a good time to discuss some breeding techniques that are unique to the scabiosa flowered flower structure. Obviously, the guard petals have stigmas and can be cross pollinated with the usual technique. However, this next is a tricky part. The first few rows of florets sometimes have receptive stigmas in them too. Sometimes those stigmas are visible and accessible to simple pollen "daubing". Sometimes the stigmas are kind of hidden in the floret. In those cases, for really good flowers that merit special treatment, I pull the florets open to expose the stigmas and then pollinate them. I have gotten quite a few obvious good hybrids on floret seeds that way. It takes a little bit of technique to pollinate the florets. I usually hold a couple of "arms" between the thumb and forefinger of one hand and use my forceps to pull the opposite side of the floret to sort of tear it open. It takes some trial and error, but, using a technique like that, you can multiply the hybrid seeds you get from a scabiosa flowered flowered significantly. And some specimens have accessible stigmas in a lot of their florets.

Another technique is to obtain pollen from the upper florets by tearing them open. Some will have viable pollen down in the throat of the floret. For a scabiosa flower that isn't "throwing pollen" that can be the only way that you can obtain pollen for use. I noticed that bees were working the upper florets of many scabis, and I realized that they must be getting pollen, although none was visible. I went into more detail there than I intended.

MM

I could look at Jackier's orange scabi forever. The shadows that the upper petals cast on the lower ones add to the effect. Did you notice how many of the petals are toothy? I hope that plant will be sturdy and prolific and gives you 47 blooms (enough to share). :-)

My best flower this year has produced only 3 disk florets, but it is forming 3 new buds. If this original flower begins to produce more pollen in time to pollinate some of the new buds; will that be "selfing"?

Do you find it useful to assign a code to each bloom on the plant or only one code to every bloom saved from the same plant?

"Do you find it useful to assign a code to each bloom on the plant or only one code to every bloom saved from the same plant?"

On some large zinnias I have assigned a unique code for each flower. In fact, back in 2006 when I started this hobby seriously, I decided that I would keep my codes as short as possible to simplify labeling. My first chosen breeder was an extra large ivory Burpeeana from Stokes' mixed Burpeeanas. Since it was the first one chosen to breed with, I designated it simply as "1". I entered a description of it in a dedicated notebook, and made a note of what I was crossing onto it (selfs and other large Burpeeanas). The first side branch bloom was designated 1a, because I wanted to pollinate it with Whirligig pollen. And so on for 1b, 1c, etc. Incidentally, I can't emphasize too much the importance of keeping some sort of notebook, journal, or scrapbook of your gardening and plant breeding activities, including dates, times, and photos if that is convenient. Even a seemingly irrelevant detail can later be of use to you.

However, now I frequently don't designate individual blooms separately, partly because I have more of them now and my pollinating strategies are simpler. And some of my scabiosa flowered hybrids have been very prolific and had dozens of smaller flowers on a single bush. I could easily run through the alphabet on them if I attempted the lower case subscripting scheme on them.

My first breeder in 2007 was designated A1, followed by A2, A3, A, etc. I could designate individual blooms as A3a, A3b, A3c, etc, but I do much less of that now.

My breeders this year are B1, B2, B3, etc. Since I am now getting more than one generation per year, I may have to revise my coding system to account for different generations. Since my second generation this year is now coming into bloom it looks like I may get seed from a third generation outside before Frost. And I anticipate a possible fourth generation inside before the end of the year. But I hope to keep my coding system as simple as I can, so that it remains easy to use.

A few of my scabi hybrids developed an almost tumbleweed plant form that I really liked. Flower form and plant habit are things that I am paying as much or more attention to than flower colors. I am also starting to pay attention to stem strength and the structural integrity of the plant form in high winds.

But everyone has their own personal preferences, and breeding your own zinnias lets you cater to what you, and not someone else, prefer. And your goals can be as simple or lofty as you like. Just developing a few separate color strains of existing commercial mixes could be a good achievement.

Another of my goals is to develop big flowers. You see advertisements of zinnias that are 6 to 7 and occasionally even 8 inches in diameter, but those seem to be somewhat exaggerated claims. I would like to develop a strain of 7 to 8 inch giant zinnias that really did measure that large. That is why my first selected breeder, good old number 1, was the biggest flower in my zinnia patch.

MM

Thanks, MM, for describing breeding scabious zinnias. It sounds like it takes some patience. I have been finding crossing the more common zinnias not as easy as expected, as there are stigmas in every row of petals that must be dusted with pollen. Then, it is important to take out the disc flowers, as that flower matures, to prevent selfing.
But the whole thing is very interesting to carry out. I see now how good documentation is absolutely necessary! Those velcro strips have been an enormous help in labeling the flowers. I have decided to record my crosses on Excel worksheets, placing dates and parent flowers along with their numbers on the velcro tape. Also, I have been inserting the images of those parents in the same worksheet row. Each cross has a unique number. I have been making and using far more black net covers than I expected!

Today I saw some interesting shapes in flower petals.

Here is one of my garden zinnias with "loopy" petals:

Here is a somewhat imperfect Park scabious with "spade-like" petals:

I have a pretty red (somewhat chewed up) flower. The interesting thing about this plant is that the stem is almost 12" between the flower and the first set of leaves!

JG

Wow! Wow! Wow! You have got some good stuff there. I have never seen anything like that "loopy" petal zinnia, and with that amazing multi-color effect, it is very pretty. A whole strain based on color variations in that flower form would be a real prize.

The spade petals on the scabi are unusual, but like you say, it doesn't have the center of florets like it is supposed to.

That long-stemmed red would make a great cut flower, and the purple bases on the petals add to the effect. Very interesting, that long stem. I can't wait for the next installment.

MM

Yesterday I was down on my knees trying to line up my trifocals to pollinate a zinnia. I heard a very strange sound, but wouldn't look away. When I finally did look, it was a female hummingbird. I imagine she was bringing a blessing to my garden.

Hummingbirds visit my zinnia patch several times a day. I spend so much time out there that they have become used to me, and will sip nectar from a flower that is right next to where I am. It is quite surprising when they fly very near your head. The sound of their wing beat is really loud when they fly only a few inches from your ear.

When I was younger, I used to be very near-sighted, so I could focus on objects that were only about twelve inches from my head. As I have gotten older, my eyesight has naturally shifted toward being less near-sighted, so close work isn't as easy as it once was. Now days I can pollinate zinnias with my line-less bifocals or with no glasses at all, but I have found that it is very convenient to use the head-mounted magnifiers that I mentioned to JG back in Part 4 Posted by maineman z5a ME (My Page) on Thu, Jun 19, 08 at 12:05. You can wear them over your glasses, but I usually use them alone for pollination now. They give you hands-free stereoscopic vision. When you don't need them, you can pivot them up out of the way without moving the headband, and pivot them down when you do.

They come with three different strength lenses, but I find that the weaker 12-inch version is perfect for my close work with zinnias. I also use them searching for viable green seeds in flower heads. And they are handy if you are looking for aphids or thrips.

MM

I think that one of the things about working with flowers is that not only are you enjoying all the beauty they have to offer, but also all of the microcosm of life that is included in the garden. Zinnias seem to be attractive to such a population. I have hummingbirds that visit often, but they have never come so close as both of you describe.
However last year in the tall trees south of my garden lived a mother hawk and her family. Twice when I was out in the garden, I would be bending over working, and suddenly I would feel the hairs on my head being touched, and a "whoosh." When I looked up, the mother hawk was climbing nearly vertically after her warning "attack" on me. She would dive down upon me, then quickly climb back into the air after just the lightest of contacts. She probably felt I was spending way too much time in her territory below.

I took note of several flowers out there today. Since both MM and HC like "toothy" flowers, here is a bright red (Park) scabious flower:

Yesterday was a "loopy" example. Here is a "droopy" HPS cactus:

Here is a light pink Burpee Burpeeana Mix flower:

I think for some the flowers I like the best, I will try to self the first flower, then cross the rest. When flowers are selfed, do you have to make much effort to do that, or will the pollen just travel by gravity to receptive stigmas?

OK, now I look forward to some of everyone else's pictures!!

JG

Well, I am glad to see that you have at least two good scabiosa flowered specimens. That red "toothy" scabi has some very interesting toothy floret petals, which is a variation from the "classic" scabiosa flowered zinnias that you see in the catalogs and on packet pictures. Apparently scabiosa flowered zinnias have quite a few genes governing various features of the flowers.

Your droopy cactus flowered zinnia is an interesting flower form. I had one something like it in 2006:

Excuse the low picture quality. It is actually enlarged from part of a video frame. I didn't have any kind of camera at all in 2006, so I shot video and took "frame grabs" in software. I wondered if the droopiness meant that something was wrong with it. I like the appearance of your "droopy" better than mine. Actually, yours is a rather interesting flower form, and could be the beginning of a good strain of "droopy" flowers. I think we should come up with a fancier name than "droopy", though.

I had a specimen rather similar to your light pink Burpeeana last year. I designated it as a breeder and crossed several things onto it. I'll have to check my records to see if I have any of its offspring coming along.

Weather permitting, I will take a few pics in my zinnia patch tomorrow. Although, I must say, I don't have anything to compete with the interesting things you have just shown. Not yet, anyway. I do have a lot of new seedlings coming on. I planted a lot of commercial seeds in an attempt to get good spider flowered specimens and to get more bicolor specimens to work with. I have two seedbeds of Zig Zags and two seedbeds of Whirligigs, so I am trying hard to get some good bicolors. I have two seedbeds of cactus flowered, and I will be planting a third seedbed of Stokes Burpeeanas tomorrow, in a quest for good spider flowered flower forms. I am also planning to extend the garden South a few feet, to make room for another seedbed.

You already have the basis for several novel and unique new strains. I continue to be amazed that zinnias can show such variety in forms and colors.

MM

P.S. Oh, about "gravity" pollination. A little of it happens, but not much. I "self" specimens by rubbing their own pollen on any available viable stigmas. Incidentally, unused pollen florets frequently make viable "floret seeds", which are almost always selfed.

Actually, I like your last pictured zinnia better than mine. It is much fuller! By the way, how about "Orange Cascade and Pink Cascade," respectively? Maybe "Droopy" was not the best of names...

You say you should get two generations before the first frost, I think. I assume here that you mean the second generation will come from the seeds of the plants you have growing out in the garden now. Are you going to harvest the seeds while they are green and cut with a knife as you do for the indoor plants? Where will you germinate them?Just wondering--I would like to try to do the same to see the results of some of the crosses I am making. I don't know if I can spend the time indoors cultivating new generations over the winter!

I have a lot of flowers outside now that are good examples of their strain, but nothing terribly different from my own mixed group, except maybe this next one. I call it "Spoonwheel," and I have a suspicion that those are the spoon-like petals you'd rather not see!

Anyway, the flower does have a kind of novel look.

JG

"Cascade" or "Cascades" would be great names for the "droopy" series.

"You say you should get two generations before the first frost, I think."

Actually, my green-seeded second generation is coming into bloom now. My first generation was coming into bloom while there was still snow outside. My second generation contains a lot of F2s and other recombinants. So there will be lots of rejects going to the compost pile.

It was windy today, so I didn't take any pictures. But when things settle down, I will take some pictures of some of my second generation, including some specimens destined for the compost pile.

Any crosses I make now with the second generation can be green-seeded for an in-garden third generation, which hopefully can mature some seeds before our killing Frost.

However, I am now in the recombinant world of F2s, crosses between F1s, virtual F2s, F3s, and so on. The recombinant world can show some new things, but a very high percentage of the recombinant plants are rejects. If last year's experience with F2s from marigold flowered and echinacea flowered F1s is any guide, I can expect no more than 5% "keepers" and perhaps as low as 1%. Last year I had one planting of about two dozen F2s, none of which was a keeper. The "saving grace" of growing recombinations is that some truly new combinations can show up.

I don't dislike your "spoonwheel". I have an on-again off-again relation with single zinnias. Right now it is off-again. But your spoonwheel is not the kind of spoon shaped petals I was speaking of. My 2006 tetraploids (State Fair) had concave petals that could actually hold a little water. All of them had that characteristic to one degree or another. Viewed from above, the State Fair petals were rather conventional "stretched teardrop" petal shapes, with oval ends, with none of the slimmed down "spoon handles" that your spoonwheel petals have.

"Are you going to harvest the seeds while they are green and cut with a knife as you do for the indoor plants? Where will you germinate them?"

I may skip the knife surgery. That takes time, although it does speed up the germination. Good active soil may attack the green seed coat fairly rapidly, so I probably will just plant the green seeds in the garden. I am going to run an experiment with the germination of dried green seeds to see if they are still viable. If they are, I will probably save a bunch of green seeds this Fall.

I finished constructing a new raised seedbed and began planting it today. I used all of my remaining Stokes Burpeeana White seeds, several hundred I would guess. I planted them somewhere between 4 inches and six inches apart, so if their germination is good, I will have some closely spaced zinnia plants.

I was planting zinnia seed under some windy conditions today, and that normally is a problem for me, because I like to garden from my little wheeled tractor seat, sitting down and treating my back well by not leaning or stooping over. The paths between my raised beds are just wide enough (3 feet) to accommodate my little rolling seat. This was the second day that I used my new little "toy", a sowing stick that I ordered from Veseys along with an order of Zig Zag seeds. It's a very simple little device that I was very close to inventing myself (I was thinking of it as a seed stick), when I noticed that Veseys already had a Sowing Stick for sale. So, not being one to re-invent the wheel, I ordered it. If you plant many seeds in drills outdoors, it can be very convenient for placing the seeds exactly where you want them in the furrow, without the wind deflecting tossed seeds. And it lets you work from either an upright standing position or, in my case, from a comfortable seated position while positioning seeds out toward the center of a 4-foot raised seedbed.

Not only does the Sowing Stick let me place seeds in a more comfortable posture, but it actually speeded up my planting process noticeably and allowed to place the seeds more accurately. I'll be using it for most of my outdoors seeding from now on.

I plan to smooth the edges of the aluminum tube a little, because occasionally a long zinnia seed snags on the sharp square edges. This is another one of those things that I would replace immediately if something happened to it.

MM

Those Candy Canes and the variation you are seeing is interesting! It looks like you have some very active transposable elements, or possibly a virus, in your plants moving in and out of the genes to alter their expression. You could even have some epigenetic factor that is being controlled in a similar fashion to alter the gene expression. This is a good chance for you to study and understand the genetics of your plants, and if you have a university nearby, it could be a nice project for a student interested in that field of study in plants. You definitely could continue to cross and study the inheritance of those traits in the plants you have--an interesting project.

Just remember that you may want to keep these characteristics isolated in the one zinnia line you have!
They may be transmittable to other zinnias over whose characteristics you want a finer control.

Thanks for sharing your observations!

JG

Your experience in planting multiple generations outdoors in one season encourages me to do the same. If you can succeed doing that in Maine, I should be able to do this in Indiana! I am going to try and plant some of the green seeds resulting from my crosses this summer and see how it works out. I was really concerned about optimal length of daylight and conditions of temperature and humidity (that usually come with late spring and early summer when I usually start my zinnias) as being important factors in getting a successful generation of plants. This is the first time I've carried out planned crosses. I'm really anxious to see the results-- so that I have an idea of how some of the traits are inherited.

That sowing stick looks like a very good idea. Usually when I sow my annual (hundreds of) seeds resulting from the random crosses, I grab a fistful and sprinkle them into the furrow as I walk along. This is where the chaffy scales are an immense help. I pluck these along with my seeds from the flower head, and I just dry and store them along with the seeds. They help space the seeds out a little better when I sow them. So do the immature seeds that may be there and that will never germinate.

But now, each seed resulting from a unique cross is a different matter, and I want to spread them out well, and know where they are. So I will get a sowing stick for these new seeds.

JG

"...I am sure the "hairnet style flower bags" are good to prevent bee pollination, but do we also need to prevent wind pollination? Or is that not a problem for zinnias?"

Wind pollination is not a problem with zinnias because zinnia pollen is comparatively heavy and is not wind-borne.

I first starting to use the nets just to protect my breeder pollen sources from the bees. Later I thought it might help prevent accidental pollination of my female seedheads by bees. Even though a female seedhead has no pollen bearing florets, a bee will frequently land on it and spend a few seconds searching for florets before flying on. That could cause some random pollination.

And now another use for the nets makes itself known. There is at least one species of seed-eating bird in this area that likes zinnia seed. I suspect it is a finch, but I haven't caught the culprits in the act of eating the seed yet. But I see the eaten hulls, scattered seeds, loose petals, and empty places on the seedheads. So I know some bird or birds are doing it.

In any case, I am going to be making some extra nets to protect all of my breeder seedheads from the birds.

MM

I've got a lot of crosses underway, and I'm finding keeping up with them all makes for a busy time in the garden. I am putting the nets on both pollen-bearing and "female" flowers. I have been getting some very nice scabious flowers in the last week. The disappointing thing is that I had wanted to self the first flowers from the plants, but I believe these are strictly female--no stamens at all in most of the cases. So, I will have to cross them with other types of zinnias.

Here are some nice blooms I saw tonight:

I call this one "Burgundy Swirl" as it slowly opens.

I am going to cross this Park Bright Jewels Cactus with a scabious zinnia--one of the few shedding pollen, which I will also self.

Here is a bright yellow scabiosa.

JG

Wow! Three more spectacular pictures. You reported that your first scabiosas were a big disappointment. You have certainly gotten some good ones since them, including that bright yellow one with deep orange center.

You got a good bicolor out of those Parks Bright Jewels Cactus. As I recall, they didn't even advertise that strain as containing bicolors.

Your "Burgundy Swirl" has amazingly deep, rich color.

I just noticed a second generation recombinant with characteristics like your "Spoonwheel". Actually, I don't think this is a very unusual look.

I see that Japanese Beetles have chewed the foliage some. I think I will consign this to the compost pile.

MM

I made my first two little "hairnets" yesterday. It felt like I was doing a vacation Bible school project. I'm quite pleased with myself. The netting I chose is almond colored so it wouldn't stand out in the garden. It also wouldn't "stand out" when I laid it on the carpet to go for the needle, came back and couldn't find it. Maybe a neon color would have been better.

My zinnias are planted among pumpkins, tomatoes, basil and corn. It makes some of them hard to reach, but I can water them. We've had watering restrictions here for a number of years. We can only water a flower bed for 25 minutes on Tuesday nights. A vegetable garden can be watered any evening. I've noticed that the bees that come to the pumpkin blossoms have no interest in the zinnias and vice versa.

My best zinnia so far seemed to be only female so I couldn't self. Luckily, I've finally gotten six disk florets and they seem to be coinciding with the blooming of two more flowers from the same plant. I'm "selfing" that way. Maybe that will work for you.

You're right, I guess the "Spoonwheel" look is not that unusual. But when viewing all the diversity of these flowers, it is one more interesting shape. Mine has not yet been assigned to the compost pile!

Here are some pictures I have been able to get at work that you might like--zinnia pollen up close!

The first picture is looking at the outside surface from the front, 1000X. Because of the size of the pollen and this magnification, only one plane can come close to being resolved at a time.

Here is the profile of the pollen grain.

JG

I'm hoping for just what you mentioned--that several flowers of the same plant will be blooming at the same time, and at least one has pollen. Hopefully in a week or so I may have that good fortune, so that I can self some of my favorite flowers.

Your method of growing flowers and vegetables is a good idea, in order to get all the garden watered at once and more often. We've had near drought-like conditions some years here, but this year has been very wet. I can never water my garden though when its dry because it is too big and we have a well.

I've made lots of nets, too, and I may be carried away with the number of crosses I'm setting up. Probably it is time to stop with any new ones so tht I can keep up!

The hawks can be scary. I've been told by more than one person that I was lucky I wasn't scalped out in the garden!
I suspect what I got was a warning--had I ventured close to the nest in some way, there may have been more of a threat!

What kinds of zinnias are you growing now?

JG

I guess I am lucky that our hawks don't nest near here and only occasionally do I see one cruising high overhead looking for accessible prey in an open area. Our many trees apparently discourage attack dives in this immediate area, although there are some open meadow areas about half a mile from here, and the hawks seem interested in it. Owls apparently can dive for prey in our wooded area. There must be some very effective predators operating in our area now, because I haven't seen a squirrel, chipmunk, or ground squirrel in the last several weeks.

That account of the hawk and the cat was really very graphic and descriptive. Good writing, HC.

JG, thanks for the zinnia pollen pictures. Very interesting. How are those lighted? From below, by light transmission directly through the pollen grain?

Changing the subject; this is a picture of one of my current plan-of-three specimens, which has appeared in my second generation.

It is disappointing on two counts: the flower is poor and the branching is very limited, with the lower leaf triads not generating any side branches yet. However, there is a third side branch, mostly obscured from this angle by the main stem. I haven't given up on a plan-of-three zinnia strain. It just looks like that isn't going to be successful in the near future.

MM

I was handling some zinnias today and noticed an aphid on the back of my hand. Apparently some of my zinnias have aphids, although I haven't looked closely yet for them. However, it isn't hard to see Japanese Beetles. I have killed dozens of them in my zinnias. I do spare the ones that have a small white parasite egg on their back, usually on their thorax.

The Japanese Beetle in this picture has already done some minor cosmetic damage, but was spared because he/she (probably "she" -- the female JBs are larger) has a parasite egg, barely visible in this picture because the egg happens to be located in a reflective highlight from the angle of the camera. The damage doesn't matter, because that zinnia is headed for the compost pile.

MM

P.S. I wonder what those little white dots are on the edges of the zinnia leaves. It seems that some, perhaps all, zinnia leaves have those dots. They must be part of the leaf anatomy. They must have some secret function for the zinnia leaf. But what?

The zinnias I have blooming right now are an humble beginning. Last year I intentionally planted only violet and canary dahlia blooms. My hope was to learn what I could about crossing the two colors. My '08's are from seed collected from these. My first bloomer is pink, but all the others are violet. There is a small range of flower forms, but most people who are not paying attention would say they are all the same.
I had a small patch of single petaled volunteers that came up last year among my herbs. I've never remembered having zinnias there the previous year, so "unknown parentage". I would never have knowingly planted such a simple flower and they were my least favorite color - pink. But '08 volunteers from these have given me the most enjoyment!
Most have been simple, but a couple are more complex. They've come in violet, orange, strawberry, hot pink, and one pink-tinged white.

I cheated with my swizzles. They were already in bloom when I bought them potted. I'm using the ivory/cherry and the yellow/scarlet for crosses with everything.

My zinnias that are just now coming up should be from about 14 different packets + a couple of my '08 crosses.

"So what will the parasite egg become that is hitchhiking on the beetle? Is it something beneficial?"

The parasite egg hatches to a small maggot that enters the body of the beetle and eventually causes its demise, and produces another generation of parasitic flies. This picture shows a beetle that is "plastered" with seven eggs, but usually you see only one, two, or three eggs. The parasite flies are doing extra well this year in controlling the Japanese Beetles, but the JBs are still a daily problem, doing mostly just cosmetic damage.

"I cheated with my swizzles. They were already in bloom when I bought them potted. I'm using the ivory/cherry and the yellow/scarlet for crosses with everything."

I expect you will be glad you got the Swizzles. I expect some interesting results from your crosses.

MM

This is a recent picture of a bed of my second generation seedlings, just coming into bloom.

I have sent a few of the zinnias in that picture to the compost pile since making the picture, because I have more zinnia plants waiting for the space.

MM

MM, the picture of your garden makes one feel like he is right there! Your plants look so healthy and well-tended, and there are some very pretty flowers in there! Some look quite large. The plan-of-three plant is interesting, especially in that it seems to be an inherited trait, being that you are in the second generation.

The Japanese beetles have come to my garden, too. They are doing a lot of damage to selected plants, and I'm having to go and shake them off from time to time. I would really welcome the parasites at this point!

I have to go and see if those white spots are on the edges of my leaves. I haven't noticed those before.

HC, I guess it goes to show you are living in a mild climate when you get zinnia volunteers! I guess you must be able to easily get several generations in one summer. It will be interesting to see how your swizzle crosses do. I am trying to do some crosses with those as well.

Here are some of my small zinnias, starting to bloom now. They are all types of Zinnia haageana, except for the two red ones. The red spider zinnia is Zinnia tenuifolia, while the one with wider petals is Zinnia peruviana.

JG

Those Haageanas are interesting. See the dark purple on that last one? That is the same dark purple that was in the Black Ruby, which was a Lilliput or Cupid Z. elegans. I have been trying to recover that by growing Lilliputs. So far, no luck. I think big spider flowered zinnias in the "black ruby" color, with or without white tips, would be spectacular.

There is presumably a chromosome-number barrier to crossing Z. elegans (violacea) with Z. haageana, but the bicolors and tricolors in Whirligig, Carrousel, and Zig Zag are thought to have been derived from crosses in about 1875 between Haageanas and Elegans by breeders who didn't know it was "impossible". (Refer to page 345 of Flower Breeding and Genetics.)

Rather than repeat crosses between Haageana and Violacea, I am growing a lot of Whirligigs and Zig Zags looking for good new genetic material. However, I am now getting interested in the potential of doing some interspecific crosses, in case some of those "impossible" crosses aren't 100% impossible.

MM

Your Japanese beetle picture was great! That guy was obviously starting to have his lunch. I caught this fellow this morning. He is one of those who obviously wants to be first in line and is willing to wait for the featured item.

I almost recall seeing the dark purple Thumbelinas. That would be a pretty flower, or a cactus in that color would be sharp, as you mentioned, with white tips. I am just going to let the little zinnias mingle and see what crosses nature will provide in the seeds.

JG

OK, here goes another experiment on how to show large images while staying within the limits of a 1024 wide display. The image below is presumably "legal" at 986 pixels wide, but is actually a large thumbnail (as hinted at by the purple line around it) to the full-sized image, which is 2240 pixels wide x 604 pixels high (much too large to embed here.) So click on the image below, if you wish, to see a larger sized version in a new window with scrollbars. You can resize that window to suit your wishes, and scroll about in it. You may or may not have to use a cursor to zoom in for the full sized picture. A "+" inside a circle will cause a zoom in and a "-" inside a circle will cause a zoom out. I am hoping this will default to a zoomed in (magnified) state, but I don't know for sure. I probably should learn some more HTML.

I hope this is a workable method for showing optional larger sized images while keeping the message thread within bounds. Incidentally, the picture shows a fairly complete panorama of my garden layout as of about last Monday, including a lot of the strawberry bed terraces on the left. The picture is looking westward. My panorama stitching ability still has some room for improvement (grin). My garden is not slanted downhill to the North as it appears.

MM

P.S. Let me know how this works or doesn't work in your browsers. It works OK in the forum Preview on my IE7.

It looks fine here on my 15" screen. Very nice garden--feels like we are all there, like a Master Gardeners' visit to a member's garden.....

JG

Well, when I retire I want to move to a place like that too. A house where you can have your garden anyway you want rather than having the house assiocation as the king. Hopefully somewhere warmer too. :-)

There are more flowers than ever here and I thought I would show some of the cactus-flowered blooms. I have planted seeds for those from HPS, T & M, and Park. There is enormous diversity among these flowers not only as obtained from each company, but among the companies as well.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a cross I might make, not between two cactus-flowered, but between one of them and another sort of Zinnia violaceae? I have Benary types of all colors, Scabiosa, Whirligig, Red-Striped, and a type like Thumbelina. I would welcome any suggestions.

JG

I found an information sheet
http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-1311/
(Greenhouse Production of Bedding Plant Zinnias) and thought I would share. There is a lot of detail about raising zinnias indoors. Interestingly, the Swizzle series is classified as Zinnia grandiflora. (By the way, I tried putting in the usual command for the link above, but for some reason, it would not work this time!)..

JG

Thanks for the informative zinnia link. I do find that classifying Swizzle as Z. grandiflora is hard to believe. I wonder if Grimes Seeds sells only to commercial greenhouses. I don't recall seeing Cascade Beauties, Ice Cream series, LoGro series, Marvel series, or Phoenix series anywhere, although their Uproar Rose and Zowie Yellow Flame have been widely sold.

You have some good looking cactus specimens. Since I prefer open blooms with space between the petals, my favorites are numbers 3, 6, 7, and 12, numbered in normal reading order. I also like 2 and 9. Of course, I would be tempted to inter-cross them with each other, in order to get more open flowered cactus types. But other than that, I would do Scabiosas and Whirligigs.

I grew some Zinnitas this year (an F1 hybrid version of Thumbelina), and found them much too small for my taste. I gave them away. I like the plant habit of the Swizzles, but I would prefer them to have taller bushes. If you have any Swizzles, you could cross to them, in an attempt to get a bigger plant than Swizzles with a cactus flower form, but keeping their branching plants and bicolors.

I planted some Peter Pans this year, out of curiosity, and I like them much better than I expected. I will be crossing taller zinnias with them in order to get a bigger plant for them while hopefully retaining their branchy bushy plant habit. The older Peter Pan has a similar plant to the newer Magellans and Dreamland, but Peter Pan is the only zinnia in that plant class (that I know of) with semi-cactus and cactus flower forms.

I don't like the closely packed petals of most "conventional" zinnia flower forms. Of course, my preferences are purely subjective and a lot of people do like the classical "dahlia flowered" zinnia flower forms.

It looks like you have a lot of possibilities for some interesting crosses. The Benarys have a rather upright commercial cut flower plant habit, but they do have strong stems and you might be able to refine their plants and flower forms with some hybridization.

MM

MM, You were quite successful with your thumbnail approach. It works out fine. It is like getting to visit without the gnats. I LOVE all the photos. I want more. The only drawback is that it's taking a while to get everything downloaded.

I noticed that Stokes' catalog also says that swizzles are a Z. grandiflora hybrid. I sure hope my crosses with swizzles and Z. viloacea are successful. If that's true, what else is included in "grandiflora"?

JG, are all your non-violacea zinnias physically located closely enough that bees can have a chance at interpollinating for you? I hope so, because that way we can all learn from your efforts. My red spiders and scabis were shipped from T&M on the 15th, but I'm still waiting on arrival.

Do you know from which company the seeds came for cactus flowered numbers 3 and 12? That's the kind I want to grow. Like MaineMan said, I would intentionally interbreed some of these cactus flowered. (Numbers 9 and 8 are cool too.) Other than that, I would cross with scabis and with swizzles. I don't know if these cactus-fl are branching a lot, but that is what I like most about the swizzles. I cannot see any room for more buds, but the swizzles just keep pushing more blooms into the mass of color. However,the little hairnets don't work too well for something so short.

MM, referring to your July 17 photo of 2nd generation seedlings. How do you keep up with the parentage of so many plants? Or are all the plants in this section from one cross?

Thanks to both HC and MM for the comments on zinnia breeding. This is the first year I've ever done this, and it's kind of like being a kid in a candy store. Which do I want to cross? (Well, nearly all of them given the time and space!)

I've got to force myself to be more focused, or we'll end up plowing up the back 6 acres here! I've thought about it some more, and have decided to go for a more delicate, but big bright red zinnia. I'll cross the bright red scabiosa with a bright red cactus zinnia. I like the bicolored look of Swizzles too and will try to cross those with a rather broad- but curved- petaled and light-colored cactus type. I better understand, MM, now, why you take cuttings to grow over winter! If you see something you like, it may be a while before you see it again.

HC, those two zinnias you liked came from HPS. In fact, most of my cactus zinnias have been grown from HPS seeds. I have two rows of those, one row of Thompson and Morgan and one-half of a row of Park. Also, I have a half of a row of Burpee Burpeeanas. Most of the cactus zinnias, though, are not all that alike when grown from the same package of seed, and all three companies show about the same range of variation, slightly less in the Burpeeannas. MM, I see those white spots now on the sides of the leaves, and I noticed they are particularly prominant in the cactus types.

Although Swizzles may be of a different species, I'm convinced they cross with the common violaceae zinnias, as I started getting those bi-colored hybrid F1's before I ever grew whirligigs here. And, I've just started to notice something that happens to both Swizzles and at least some of what I believe are Swizzle relatives (I'll have to watch the whirlygigs--it's possible they may do this, too, but so far this season, I've seen none that have). The Swizzles after first opening are clearly bicolor, but as the flowers become older, all the emerging petals are red as seen below:

Young Swizzle:

Older Swizzle:

Have any of you seen whirligigs that do this?

My main garden now looks like this. It was organized at first, but is quickly assuming the "wild look," as the zinnias in the center get taller. I know some seeds are starting to mature now because the goldfinches are beginning to congregate in the garden and dismantle flowers! Those nets will be helpful! When I start growing out crosses, the rows will be more widely spread. I like the look of MM's more controlled garden.

I think I will have a lot of random crosses made by our pollinators, and I will as usual collect seed from the nicest flowers. I hope the "little" zinnias cross, too, but I can only wait and see. I will grow all the seeds I collect from them in a short zinnia site, although if they cross with the taller zinnias nearby that will remain to be seen..

JG

"I noticed that Stokes' catalog also says that swizzles are a Z. grandiflora hybrid. I sure hope my crosses with swizzles and Z. violacea are successful."

Stokes got their Swizzles from Grimes Seeds, and apparently Grimes calls them Z. grandiflora, so Stokes is just repeating Grimes. As JG suggested, she apparently had Swizzle crosses from bees with her other zinnias before she had any Whirligigs, so Swizzles should cross with Z. violacea just fine.

" If that's true, what else is included in "grandiflora"?"

Well, I personally suspect that Z. grandiflora is being misused by the seed producers and seed sellers, perhaps because it contains the word "grand".

If you read the Alabama Cooperative Extension System link that JG gave previously, Greenhouse Production of Bedding Plant Zinnias, you will notice that it says, "Zinnia grandiflora Rocky Mountain or prairie zinnia is a clump-forming perennial that grows to be 4 to 6 inches tall and 12 to 20 inches wide with narrow leaves up to 1 inch long and 0.12 inches wide. Prairie zinnia naturally grows on arid hillsides and mesas throughout much of the southwestern United States at elevations from 2,000 to 6,000 feet. It flowers throughout the summer and into the fall with yellow-orange, daisy-like flowers."

I think that is probably correct, that Z. grandiflora is a wild perennial species as described. But then that publication lists Swizzle as Z. grandiflora. I have my doubts about that. I think Swizzle is Z. violacea.

In the Zinnia chapter of the book, Flower Breeding and Genetics, Dennis Stimart and Thomas Boyle do not mention Z. grandiflora in the section on Interspecific Crosses beginning on page 345. I think if Swizzle were Z. grandiflora, it would be a lot different from what it is.

"...referring to your July 17 photo of 2nd generation seedlings. How do you keep up with the parentage of so many plants? Or are all the plants in this section from one cross?"

They are not all from the same cross. I assign each "breeder" a code ID. If you look closely near the base of the plants, you might see small white plastic labels containing the ID, date planted, etc. They all have the small white labels, but only a few show in the picture. I'll show an example in a subsequent message. I keep a journal with descriptive information associated with the codes.

MM

About the "cascading" photos; I was showing photos from these threads to some garden club ladies. The cascading were the only ones they didn't like. They associate healthy with perky and upright. Just a thought.

My swizzles are doing the same thing where the bicolor becomes less obvious with age.

I'm not familiar with HPS. Is there a link to them? What is that short for?

MM, I see the little ID spikes now in the photo. I knew that after taking all the time to record crosses and label seed that you had a way of tagging individual plants too. Good thing I was just looking and not stepping.
I started to purchase those ID spikes at a garden center until I saw the price for 10. Instead, I buy boxes of plastic knives, write on the blades, and poke the handles into the soil.

All that you have written about Z. grandiflora is exactly as I suspected. One company gives out wrong info and others use it as a reliable source. I do think the swizzles must be hybrids just by looking at the number of seeds per package. Therefore one should expect some variability in F2's, not to mention outcross variability. Really big kid in a candy store.
The Ultimate Plant Book says that Z. grandifora is a perennial, and I just can't see swizzles being that.
Armitage's Manual of Annuals, Biennials, and Half-Hardy Perennials (How do you underline in this forum?) describes Z. elegans (What year did it become violacea?) as having "leaves clasping or almost so". Z. angustifolia has "sessile leaves that are linear to linear lanceolate". Z. haageana's leaves are "lanceolate to ovate". Z. peruviana is "a relative of Z. angustifolia". It mentions peruvians being 2 to 3 feet tall. I had imagined them as short.

Sorry for the rambling. I'm on a first-taste-of-cherry-tomatoes-from-direct-seeding high.

"I started to purchase those ID spikes at a garden center until I saw the price for 10."

I bought my labels from Harris Seeds. I chose the small 4-inch labels because they fit nicely under a standard humidity dome. When I repot or transplant the zinnia outdoors, the label simply "follows along." Since there was a price break for buying 4 or more packages of 250, I bought 4 packages, thinking that a thousand labels would "last forever". That made the labels cost about 4¢ each.

I considered using the plastic knives as you do, but I like to write on the labels with soft 2B pencil lead because it never fades and is erasable, so I can simply erase the labels and re-use them. An ordinary pencil eraser works, although when I am erasing a lot of labels at a time I use Bon Ami cleaner, because it works faster. I have a 0.5mm pencil loaded with 2B lead that I use for writing on the labels. Its lines are fine enough that I can write quite a lot if I write small. My pencil didn't work well on plastic knives or spoons.

The labels have a "slick" glossy side and a matte side, and I usually write on the matte side. The pencil doesn't write too well on the glossy side. I think the slick side is meant for markers that use a liquid ink. I don't use the markers because they aren't so erasable and they seem to fade quite a bit in the sun.

I start a lot of my "fancier" seeds indoors under fluorescent lights. I have used several hundred labels already, because I plant my seeds one per 2½-inch square pot, with a label in each little pot. I average only about 50% germination on my saved seeds, so a lot of labels were in pots that didn't come up. Of course I wash, sterilize, and re-use the pots.

"How do you underline in this forum?"

This forum responds to a lot of HTML commands, so if you type in <u>please underline this</u> it will appear as please underline this. Substitute "i" for "u" and you will get italics and substitute "b" and you will get bold.

MM

I also have a question. Is it normal for zinnia's to be so bendy? If you take mine and push it to the side for a little bit (like what the wind does), it will pretty much stay where you put it.

Glad to see you here. That's an interesting zinnia, with the pink tips. Some of the petals appear to be a bit dead on the tip. I wonder if that might be a nutrient deficiency.

"Is it normal for zinnia's to be so bendy? If you take mine and push it to the side for a little bit (like what the wind does), it will pretty much stay where you put it."

I have seen some differences in how the branches bend on some of my zinnias as well. Some have very thick branches, almost like small trees and are very strong. And some seem rather "bendy" like you describe. I guess it is better to bend than to break, but there does seem to be a genetic factor or factors affecting zinnia plant strength.

Although the element silicon is not considered necessary for plant growth, plants do absorb and use silicon to aid in cell wall strength, which in turn adds strength to the stems and branches. Rice farmers use silicon containing fertilizers to improve the stem strength of their rice plants and, without the silicon, the yield is much lower because the plants break or bend over.

I have experimented with feeding my zinnias silicon via the product Pro-TeKt from Dyna-Gro and, although it is too early to know for sure, it does seem that my zinnias benefit from the silicon feeding. There was a recent discussion here on GardenWeb, Questions About Dyna-Gro Liquid Bloom?? in which Pro-TeKt was also discussed. For more information, click on the Pro-TeKt Sell Sheet link on the WormsWay page.

The active ingredient in Pro-TeKt is simply potassium silicate, sometimes sold as "water glass". Water glass can also be sodium silicate, and I wouldn't want to use the sodium form on my plants. I have been looking for an inexpensive source of potassium silicate, but so far haven't found one. So I guess I will continue using the Pro-TeKt product until I do.

MM

I was going to send a picture this morning, but we've once again had a lot of rain, and now the zinnias are truly turning into a jungle. This evening I may go and stake some of my favorites.

HC, the link for HPS would be http://www.hpsseed.com/ .
HPS stands for Horticultural Products and Services. When I was checking for their website, one link had them associated with Thompson and Morgan, so I wonder if T&M may have purchased them? I don't know for sure, and I didn't have time to check it out.

The trees you see at one side of my garden is where the hawk had her nest, fairly high up. And, as far as the droopy flower goes, I thought it was an interesting form. It's not my favorite, either, but I bet some folks would like it! There is a kind of coneflower that has a similar shape, and I see it in a lot of gardens!

My Peruvian zinnias have taken off in height, and are now surpassing the haageanas, Swizzles, tenuifolias, and angustifolias in height! I am going to have to thin that patch.

MM, with respect to those pollen photos, I took them using a Q-imaging digital camera mounted on a Nikon Eclipse 50i compound microscope. The light was coming from below the slide. I am still getting used to working with the associated software so that the captured picture represents just what is seen through the microscope!

Well, it's off to work for me!

JC

JG, maybe Z. peruviana really does grow 2 to 3 ft tall. I learned yesterday that Z. haageana and Z. peruviana are the two species most closely related to Z. violacea; all having 24 chromosomes. Shahin et al (1971) produced sterile hybrids of peruviana x violacea.

Thanks for the link to HPS. I didn't have a clue.

I wasn't dissing the cascades; just passing along an opinion. I'm wondering how that same characteristic might look with different petal type. I would keep working with them just because they are different. Part of genepooling is hanging onto anything out of the ordinary so that it can be tried in new combinations. I have two zinnias I have labeled as savers, not because I like their flowers, but because they offer something different that I'd like to learn about.

MM, it's nice to revisit your panorama and just look around. However, I can't find any of the seams. You're already too slick.

Grin. JG? You must have been in a hurry to get off to work. Back to zinnias.

Recently I had an odd specimen develop, in which the main stem started with four leaves and then divided into two main stems. At first I thought, omigosh, another "freak of nature", but I came to like the thing. It sort of makes it own flower arrangement. It is kind of sad that it had to develop this far in a tiny little 2½ inch pot. That Better-Gro water soluble orchid food has let me get by with leaving zinnias in small pots much too long. Orchids don't have much in the way of roots, but zinnias should be allowed much more room for root development. I need to remember that while I am mixing up a batch of orchid food for my zinnias. However, I transplanted that zinnia into the garden after I took this picture.

I think your Peruvian zinnias have definite breeding possibilities. On page 338 of Flower Breeding and Genetics, Stimart and Boyle say that "the 13 species in subgenus Zinnia are classified into three sections, Mendezia, Tragoceros, and Zinnia. Section Zinnia contains three species: Z. Haageana, Z. peruviana, and Z. violacea (formerly Z. elegans). The chromosome number is 2n = 2x = 24 for all three species."

Stimart and Boyle go on to say, "Zinnia peruviana is an erect herbaceous annual, 70-100 cm in height with lancelinear to broadly ovate or elliptic leaves and 4-5 cm wide capitula [blooms] with ray florets in a single whorl. Ligules [petals] are either yellow or scarlet red. It is distributed from southeastern Arizona and western Mexico to Peru and Argentina at elevations from sea level to 3000 meters. Plants flower from April to October in North America. The species is found in numerous habitats throughout its range. Plants can yield prolific numbers of seed and it has escaped from cultivation in some temperate and subtropical regions with summer rainfall. Zinnia peruviana is not cultivated widely, perhaps because it exhibits little phenotype variation relative to Z. violacea."

In the section 6.2, Interspecific Crosses, Stimart and Boyle go on to say, "Shahin et al. (1971) crossed diploid (2n = 2x = 24) accessions of Z. peruviana (as female) and Z. violacea and obtained F1 hybrids. The F1 hybrids were more vigorous than either parent and most hybrids resembled Z. violacea more than Z. peruviana. Intercrosses between F1 hybrids and backcrosses to both parents failed to produce viable seeds. Microscopic examination of pollen mother cells revealed irregular meiosis. There have been no further reports of interspecific hybrids between these two species."

It sounds to me like it might be worth a second try, with different examples of Z. violacea. At the very least, you would get to see some interesting F1 hybrids.

MM

I agree with your comments about saving seeds from the pink-tipped breeder, despite the tip burns.

I see that we referred to the same sources about crossing Z. violacea and Z. peruviana. Now I wish that I had some Peruvianas growing. I'll order a few seed for a fall crop, or for use this winter. Worst case, I could grow the sterile F1 hybrids from cuttings.

I must admit that my first impression of the Cascades was negative. It looked to me like there must be something wrong with them. Now that I realize the trait is probably genetic, I think it might be worth pursuing them as a strain. Lots of Echinaceas hang down way more. I'll have to check my seed storage to see if I happened to save any seed from my Cascades specimen. And I'll keep my eye open if any new examples appear this summer.

Thanks for the compliment on the panorama. However, I do need to learn to make the things level.

MM

"An 18 inch tall candelabra plant with about 14 deep red blooms of a single whorl of drooping petals."

That would look spectacular, and very "un-zinnia-like". Sounds like a worthy breeding objective.

MM

MM, your pink zinnia might have an unusual growth pattern, but it is a beautiful plant! I hope you can get it to reproduce more of its own kind through seeds! You said you liked open-petaled zinnias, and this one surely has those kind of blooms-very pretty! Also, it appears you have truly mastered indoor gardening of zinnias, looking at that example.

HC and MM, too bad you folks didn't live nearby. I could give you some transplants of my "little" zinnias. That is a misnomer now. Their wild-type characterististics are letting them compete and crowd out the Profusions (another misnomer in this case) and the Swizzles as well as the White Stars. Here is what that little patch looks like now. Excuse the weeds in the background...my tiller has just broken, we've had lots of heat and rain, and work-hours this week have been rather demanding...

Left to right: Persian Carpet, Profusions, Swizzles, Red Spider, White Stars, Chippendale, Aztec Sunsets.
The Profusions are hardly visible, but are starting to flower, The Swizzles are mostly hidden, but persistent with their flowers, the Red Spiders are doing fine as are the Chippendales, and Aztec Sunsets. The White Star plants are there, but have scarcely begun to bloom. OK, I guess I should start crossing several of those Persian Carpets!

JG

"I guess I should start crossing several of those Persian Carpets!"

You should also be able to inter-cross the Persian Carpets and the Aztec Sunsets, because they are both Z. haageana. And, if you are feeling adventuresome, you could start pollinating the Peruvians with Z. violacea, as HC and I mentioned above. The tall height of your Peruvians is encouraging that they have "something". And, who knows, you might get lucky and create a Z. peruviana x Z. violacea hybrid that isn't sterile.

"Also, it appears you have truly mastered indoor gardening of zinnias, looking at that example."

Thanks for the compliment, but I still have a lot to learn. I learn new things nearly every week, frequently by trial and error. And that tall skinny plant, even though it does have two main stems, is a pretty good example of how you should not grow a zinnia indoors. Its nutrition is OK, but the paler lower leaves show that they were starved for light. The pot is much too small. I have been very remiss in re-potting, and my Plant Growth Regulator treatments have mostly been timed a couple of weeks too late. I have a few seedlings that I treated with PGR this evening, hopefully in time this time.

Growing plants, indoors or out, it is a learning experience, and I always hope to do better "next time."

MM

I can't believe I didn't think of crossing Z. haageana with Z. peruviana. They have the same chromosome number!

"From what I read, crosses can be successful between individuals of species and not successful with others."

Exactly! I think there are a lot of experiments with interspecies yet to be made, and who better than us who don't have to convince a department head or justify budget to a manager in order to do something. By trying more things, we could succeed where others have failed. Next year, maybe this Fall and Winter indoors, I am going to be planting several zinnia species.

Actually, indoor pollination is easier, because you don't have to fight the bees, the wind, or the rain and you can sit in a comfortable chair. A lot of the seedling I am growing right now were pollinated right here in this room, with the convenience of head-mounted magnifiers, where I have this computer and two plant stands.

You have inspired me to add interspecific zinnia pollination as one of my indoor gardening projects this Winter. Now I will have the "fun" of learning how to grow those species under fluorescent lights. So far all of my experience has been with Z. violacea. Hopefully growing the other species is similar.

Based on how high JG's Z. peruvianas are, I may have to use some Plant Growth Regulators to keep them compact enough to fit on my plant stand shelves. I am still learning the techniques of using PGRs. Yesterday I treated some seedlings at the "3½ true leaf stage" with some 2 ppm A-Rest. Today I am treating some seedlings at the same leaf stage with some 3 ppm Topflor.

The objective of these experiments is to learn how to keep my zinnias compact enough to grow on three-shelf plant stands without touching the lights. When you have to remove shelves to make room for taller plants you lose growing space and the lower leaves of the plants don't get enough light.

I am excited by the anticipation of new zinnia projects in the future. I really enjoy this hobby.

MM

I've had a chance to get outside a little today. Here are a couple of mixed offspring that have come up from past generations here in my garden. They are far from perfect, but are the first flowers coming from each plant. I think the second flowers may be better if I pay special attention to each plant. (It is truly a jungle out there!).

Anyway, here is a frilly pink, followed by a gaudy flower I call "July Bonnet." I don't think I've seen white stripes in a zinnia before.

Since there are at least two folks becoming interested in other species of zinnias, I will be back later tonight with more. Have to seriously stake some tomatoes..

JG

The "streaky" pattens on "July Bonnet" are amazing. I don't think they are anything like the patterns on Peppermints, Candy Canes, etc. I suspect they had their origins in one of the parents of one of your commercial F1 hybrids that got mixed into your gene pool. You continue to amaze me with the things that pop up in your naturally mixed gene pool. I think "July Bonnet" should be a breeder. Just selfing it would be justified.

MM

The "micro-garden" is quickly becoming full of flowers. The little Persian Carpet and Aztec Summer flowers look like tiny kaleidoscope patterns there among the leaves.

The Chippendales remind me a little of simple marigolds, but when you look closely, their petal surfaces are velvety.

The other flowers of the patch are brightening up, too.

I'm really glad that these were planted this year. They are far more interesting than the catalogs depict.

JG

This is the first time that I have thought (in "July Bonnet") that the disc flowers are actually kind of an asset in the appearance of the flower.

As you said earlier, this hobby is exremely interesting (and fun).

JG

Z. violacea, peruviana and haageana are all section Zinnia. That's what gave me the idea.
Mules are usually sterile, but once in a while an individual is not. I think that's what happened when whirligig bicolors got crossed into violacea decades ago. They tried enough different specimens until they hit on the rare one that clicked.

There's a lot to do today, but here is a scene of the main garden, as taken from the second story of our house. On an overcast day, it seems the best time to capture the colors.

One thing, else, after collecting some of the seeds from my crosses, I think I will dry them down and place them in a bead box with big compartments. Some of my crosses are yielding just a small number of seeds. Then, I am afraid to try and grow them green, if in that case they don't make it! One other thing, many years ago, I used to cross flowers by transferring the pollen with a small paintbrush. I think I will try that again for the scabiosas whose stigmas are buried deep in the floret, rather than cutting them open..One crucial step here, though,-- the paintbrushes must be thoroughly cleaned with soap and hot water between uses, then dried down. Off to the craft store later today.....

JG

I checked on my Burpee highlight yesterday. What a disappointment. There were only 6 seeds in the pack, so initially I only planted 2. The one that sprouted is now about 2 1/2 feet long, not tall. It has very narrow leaves and cannot even stand on its own, though it seems to want to. I've staked it and said a prayer. I've planted one more seed in my new garden.

It is a joy to see your photos. I can only share photos to non-hotmail email addresses through my cellphone; not nearly as impressive.

Seed saving: When I opened my '07 seed I found scads of tiny spiders. This year I am saving individual seed heads in tiny brown paper bags. I write in pencil all the info I know about parent plants (number of petals, their type and color; height; date; location; cultivar; # of blooms on plant; pollinator). I sprinkle in some Sevin dust and shake. They will spend a week drying out in the back of my car and then I will transfer them to the sandwich bags with index cards as MM suggested. I'm loving it.

"Z. violacea, peruviana and haageana are all section Zinnia. That's what gave me the idea. Mules are usually sterile, but once in a while an individual is not. I think that's what happened when Whirligig bicolors got crossed into violacea decades ago. They tried enough different specimens until they hit on the rare one that clicked."

I agree 100%. That is a very important point, so I emphasized it. In the past, people have reported failed results with zinnia breeding experiments that represented a rather limited number of attempts. The temptation has been to "close the book" on those avenues of experimentation and, in my opinion, it is time to "re-open the book".

And, although I am still postponing tissue culture experiments with zinnias for a while, I don't rule out trying my hand at that at some future time when I feel a little more "high tech". My immediate plans are to start acquiring some seeds of other zinnia species. And, of course, to do as much as I can with my Z. violacea recombinants (F2s, F3s, hybrids between hybrids, and such). And I am still trying to select some good specimens from commercial zinnias. That involves growing a lot of them and selecting "only the best".

MM

"On Jackier's 22:47 post of July 25, the very first two flowers posted; what are they? One is a burgundy bicolor and one is yellow."

JG can confirm this, but I think they are Persian Carpets and possibly Aztec Sunsets. I think that applies to at least the top two rows of her photos in that message. Persian Carpets, Aztec Sunsets, and Chippendales are all Z. haageana.

Some Persian Carpets have a very deep purple color with white or cream tips. The purple can be so deep as to appear almost black in some light. I wish I could get that "purple-black" into Z. violacea. Years ago, there was a small Z. violacea named "Black Ruby" that had that color, so I know that it is possible.

MM

Your garden looks great, and is also a good asset in the landscape.

Using small artist paintbrushes to apply pollen into the florets of scabiosa flowered zinnias sounds like a good idea, because it is rather tedious to tear the florets open to expose the stigmas. Keep us posted on your progress with that. We might want to adopt your technique.

Some scabiosa flowered zinnias have enough of their stigmas showing that you can pollinate them "the old way" by rubbing with the pollen bearing florets. But pollinating with small brushes has some other potential advantages as well, such as making the pollen "go farther" and getting it applied more directly to the stigmas.

MM

From the Fri, Jul 25, 08 22:47 post, all pictures of individual flowers are Persian Carpet (from both T & M and Park)in the first-shown block of four except the Swizzle-like Aztec Sunset in the lower right-hand corner. The others are Persian Carpet and Chippendale (the latter was described as such).

I also like to store my seed in ziploc-type bags (the snack size), as well as big plastic cannisters (for my general naturally-crossed group) when totally dry. But now with my first planned crosses, I want to see my group organized and on display ;-). It's really important that they are completely dried for this though.

HC, why don't you ensure that your flowers are pretty "old," (starting to lose color and drying down), then cut the flower off from the stem and harvest the seed right then. You can pull the petals out of the seedhead, then tear the colored part away from the actual seed. Then, dry the seeds down on newspaper or paper towels in a place that is room temperature or cooler, and dry. The flower is a whole microcosm of creatures. I harvest my flowers and sit outdoors at the picnic table separating out the seeds from the flowerheads. That's when you see all the creatures, who then will NOT come into your house. I think the maturing seeds can take plenty of heat while they are attached to the rest of the plant, but when they have been separated, they are then much more vulnerable to high temperatures! I think storing your seeds in the car may not be good for their viability!

I've used paint brushes to cross day lilies in the past, just to ensure that they produce seeds that I then give to folks who want them. I have never bred daylilies for a planned outcome--just wanted to ensure lots of seeds!

JG

I'm sure if this cross has been made in the past, it can definitely happen again. It is just a case of persistence!

I don't know if I have as much patience as you have shown as a flower breeder in this particular case. I would be tempted to set up a patch where I had the violaceae of my choice inter-sewn along with the haageana of my choice and let the bees do the work. You will have a myriad of crosses and the seeds that you get will be the offspring that have the best chance (have "taken"). Grow them out and see what you get! I bet if you chose a violaceae that tends to have mostly all-female flowers, along with the pollen-shedding haageana, you would see some possible crosses. That's kind of what I am doing now (by chance, not design) with these new species. The only thing that is bad is that they are a little removed from the violaceae, unless Swizzle is a member, which by the way, Park Seed has included under their elegans (aka violaceae) column in their catalog.

JG

JG

It's a short break out of the sun here. I am selfing "July Bonnet," who also has a sister blossom appearing which will also be selfed, and whose look is similar to that of the first flower.

I think it will take many crosses to get a possible haageana x violaceae cross to work, maybe thousands! Anyway, I made one today and will report the results if I should get seeds, and then in a while if they germinate.
I crossed a Persian Carpet I call "Black Belt" with a cactus I call "Snowflake." When I spend as much time as I do with flowers, some become personalized..;-).

X

JG

Well, I think it might be a good idea to start Part 6. Part 5 turned out to be a surprisingly good and active message thread. See you all over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6.

MM