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maineman_gw

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6

maineman
15 years ago

Hello all,

We are starting Part 6 here because, thanks to a lot of good participation and activity, the message thread, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 5, was getting long and unwieldy. Please feel welcome to post pictures and comments about zinnia activities here. This is a picture of a grouping of several of my cutting propagated zinnias.

{{gwi:5384}}

{{gwi:16607}}Incidentally, it is my intent to keep all of the pictures posted here in Part 6 no wider than 986 pixels, for the convenience of readers whose monitors are no wider than 1024 pixels.

All of these plants were taken as cuttings from the same purple scabiosa flowered zinnia. I picked it because it had a decent amount of cutting material available and because it had the characteristic of partially exposed stigmas in the florets. You might be able to see some of those stigmas in the pictures on the left.

As you can see, all of the flowers are similar, although there are some variations. In previous parts of this series, I have noted that the stress of a cutting developing into a separate plant sometimes seems to be able to induce some rather odd variations. However, this grouping of plants doesn't seem to display any very noticeable changes.

My main motivation for developing the ability to propagate my zinnias from cuttings is to be able to produce a large number of seeds from a hybrid specimen to give me a better chance of getting specimens similar to the parent.

The more seeds you can save from a particularly good specimen, the better your chances are of getting something similar despite the tendency of seedlings from recombinants (F2s, F3s, and various hybrids between hybrids with complex ancestry) to vary wildly.

I expected my recombinants to be mostly rejects, and that is proving to be the case. As soon as you take the next step after raising your F1 hybrids, by saving seeds from them or by recrossing them with other F1 hybrids or whatever, you enter the phenomenon of genetic recombinations. I don't fully understand it myself, but recombinations tend to produce mostly rejects. However, you can get a few specimens that resemble the hybrid parents, despite their complex ancestry, and occasionally you can get an entirely new combination of genes that gives you a specimen better than either original parent or any of their ancestors.

For me, it is that rare chance of "hitting the jackpot" with something really new and good that makes the gamble of raising recombinants worth all the weird rejects. I do consider the possibility of raising zinnias from cuttings to be an important tool in our toolkit of techniques for de-hybridizing a complex hybrid into a seed-propagated strain.

Another benefit of the asexual propagation of zinnias is that it lets you propagate any sterile hybrids that you might produce. For example, if JG were to cross some of her Z. violaceas with her Z. peruvianas and if she got interesting but sterile hybrids from those crosses, she would have the option of taking cuttings from those sterile hybrids and getting more plants that way.

And, once again, the numbers game comes into play. If you have a lot of clones of a sterile hybrid, you have a better chance that one of them will "accidentally" produce a few viable seeds.

There is nothing particularly hard about raising zinnias from cuttings. I do sterilize the cuttings by dipping them in diluted Physan 20 (1 teaspoons per gallon) to prevent any bacterial rot of the cutting. However, that step may not be necessary.

I have had success with several commercial rooting products, including Rootone, Hormex #1, Hormex #3, Hormex #8 and Dip 'n Grow (a liquid product that you dilute differently for hardwood, softwood, and soft cuttings). The powders are a little more convenient if you are starting just a few cuttings. The Dip 'n Grow is more convenient if you are starting a lot of cuttings at once. But once you dilute a batch of Dip 'n Grow, the diluted hormones are good for only about 24 hours. So Dip 'n Grow involves some waste if you are starting only a few cuttings at once.

It is necessary to keep the zinnia cuttings under lights under a humidity dome, or an equivalent, for the first week or so, until they get a few roots. I usually remove any buds on the cuttings, so they don't waste their energy trying to build a flower and roots at the same time. Just remember that, if you need to for whatever reason, you can grow zinnias from cuttings.

MM

Comments (105)

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello everyone,

    Yesterday we returned from a very hot, but good, time in Oklahoma. I was able to see several gardens, but only saw zinnias near an apartment complex where Profusions were used in the landscaping.

    MM, your spider zinnia is pretty and seems to be very much the type of flower you are trying to create. More and more, I am very much aware of how difficult it is to make a cross, then get the desired effect!

    Upon arriving, I found the goldfinches had made heavy inroads on my patches as they feasted on the seeds of unprotected flowers. I spent several hours today harvesting seeds for my general mixed garden next year. I also was able to get seeds from some of my crossed plants, although I was a little disappointed in the number I got. There will be a lot of pressure on those few to give me some plants!

    HC, pls8xx, and blueangel--I agree that it will be fun to get zinnias from lots of places abroad to add to the gene pool, given these are reliable sources! Not surprisingly, it seems most of the seeds we get from companies here in the US are actually grown overseas. I got seeds for a red zinnia called "Gift," originating from Moscow, and sold by Seed Savers Exchange in Iowa. I hope it will do something special for my gene pool, but it does look quite ordinary with lots of disc flowers.

    {{gwi:16638}}

    My whirligigs in general are colorful, but not unusual:

    {{gwi:16639}}{{gwi:16640}}

    The patch of Benaries I have is a nice cutting garden, and the "microgarden" is not so "micro" anymore!

    {{gwi:16641}}{{gwi:16642}}

    I found a "Siamese-twin" flower today. I think often an injury will cause a plant to do strange things. Also, among the Rich Farm Zig-zags, I found a flower, not striped, but a coral flower whose petals turn pink with age.

    {{gwi:16643}}{{gwi:16644}}

    I look forward when I can show offspring of my crossed zinnias! (It will be a while...)

    JG

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Glad to have you back safe and sound. Sorry about the goldfinches. They are the ones that are shredding my unprotected flowers.

    I like everything about the yellow pink flower from Rich Farm. The petal shape/form is nice and the lower petals look picoteed. It should be sitting atop an ice cream cone.

    Your microgarden looks spendid!! Those Peruvians are tall. Where did you purchase seed? Finding the swizzles is like looking for Waldo. What intentional crosses have you made with the micros?

    I have found a source for two zinnias that are new to me. Both are offered by www.stokeseeds.com. One is a 'Zahara' series. They are Z. marylandica, but with a higher percentage of doubles. The other is 'Solcito' which is a Z. maritima.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Welcome back from Oklahoma. I was born in Enid and raised on a farm in northwest Oklahoma, and went to OU in Norman. It gets very hot in Oklahoma, with triple digits not being unusual. And, while it has been hot in Oklahoma, it has been quite mild here in Maine. The temps have been in the mid 70's for the days and in the mid 50's at nights.

    The finches have been a problem here, too. I've got to make and deploy some more nets. Your "Zig Zag" has an unusual button flower form combined with some twist and folding of the petals. Possibly some Cactus heritage there.

    This recombinant zinnia is another of my "spidery" examples. This one has rather curved petals, fairly close to the old Fantasy strain that is apparently now extinct. I liked the Fantasy's for their unusual "fantastic" flower form. At least two of them received AAS All America Selections awards. It really annoys me that so many good strains of zinnias have "gone extinct".

    {{gwi:16645}}

    Well, back to the garden for me. Lots to do there.

    MM

  • billy_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Next year I'd like to plant seeds from the Zinnias I am growing now. When is the best time to collect the seeds? Do I wait until the flower completely dies out on the plant? Can I pick a flower and let it dry out off of the plant? I appreciate any guidance you can give me.

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello!

    HC, my source of the Peruvian zinnias was Select Seeds--Antique Flowers in Union, CT. I also got yellow Peruvian zinnias, and I had a few when they first started blooming, but have seen no more for a while now. I don't think I have seen the Z. maritima before--will have to check those out!

    MM, I can see why you have all the experience with zinnias--they were probably just about the only flowers in the garden that could withstand the dryness and heat in OK! I know I am thankful they are so hardy when the summers here in IN get extreme. I like the angles in the petals of your cactus flowers. I have that trait in a more modified form in several of the cactus flowers I got from HPS:

    {{gwi:16646}}{{gwi:16647}}{{gwi:16648}}

    I saw a neat design on the ground below my picnic table while harvesting seeds, and will share below:

    {{gwi:16649}}

    BG, I think all of us may have slightly different ways to get the seeds from zinnias. You no doubt get the most seeds when you allow the flowerhead to totally dry on the plant,
    then remove the seeds at the base of the petals. If you have seed-eating birds in your garden, they will eat up the seeds as they mature! Then you can protect the flower head by covering with a netted cover, as described by MM in earlier posts. The only thing is, is that then your flower, if it is still developing, must be hand-pollinated to get the most seeds back. Or, you can harvest seeds early while they are still relatively "green," then dry inside on a newspaper or paper towel. If you do that, the most mature seeds will be at the base of the flower.

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Wow! You have several specimens with good curving on the petals. I guess I will have to send HPS an order next year.

    We had some sun here today, but rain is scheduled for tomorrow and the next day. With all this wet weather, foliage diseases are becoming a problem and I am spraying. So far I have just used some Physan 20, occasionally combined with soluble foliar feeding nutrients. But I think I will branch out on the spraying and use some GreenCure and mono-potassium phosphate.

    You are right about our Oklahoma experience. Zinnias were one of the few flowers that did well. Our roses faltered and died. Our lilac and spirea did well, and so did our trumpet vine. Morning glories and moon vines were good, but we watered most of our garden and landscaping subjects. About the only thing that would grow without some watering was wild sunflowers and ironweed.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good evening!

    HC, I have only made one cross so far with a "micro." And, that is the one I mentioned earlier between a white-tipped dark burgundy Persian Carpet and a white cactus. I harvested about ten good seeds from that cross today--I wonder if they resulted from the cross I attempted? We'll see! I really didn't expect any seeds because I was pretty sure the cross would be incompatible, so I can't help thinking that maybe there was pollination via the wind! Nonetheless, I have put nets over two buds that have yet to bloom--of an orange cactus and a red Peruvian for a cross between those two plants. I can not imagine what offspring of such a cross would look like!

    I looked at the Z. maritima--it could be interesting to try and cross it--but it looks so much like a black-eyed Susan!--I don't know!! Are you going to get it? What sort of cross would you make?

    MM, you are extremely knowledgable about all the chemicals to use with plants. Your plants look pretty good,too. Mine are getting kind of dried looking with the lack of rain, and are getting some holes from the Japanese beetles. I am going to try and take my red scabious and July Bonnet zinnias through the winter as cuttings, and will go to the hormone products for that. Do you treat the cuttings to the same high intensity indoor light as the other plants when they are producing new roots? In terms of chemicals other than hormones, I won't be so adverse to using insecticides indoors to prevent any insect damage.

    Here are a Persian Carpet that looks a lot like a strawflower and several Chippendales that I saw today:

    {{gwi:16650}}{{gwi:16651}}{{gwi:16652}}

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "Do you treat the cuttings to the same high intensity indoor light as the other plants when they are producing new roots? In terms of chemicals other than hormones, I won't be so adverse to using insecticides indoors to prevent any insect damage."

    I start the cuttings in the same medium that I use to start my seeds indoors (Premier ProMix BX, to which I add some extra Perlite for better aeration of the mix). I water the cutting pots with a special dilute solution with a complete mix of macro and micro nutrients and Physan 20, because, unlike seeds, the cuttings have an appetite for nutrients. I use urea-free soluble nutrients because urea can't be converted to usable nitrate or ammonium ions in the absence of soil microbes. I'll detail the starting solution in a subsequent message.

    My plant stands have 2-foot x 4-foot shelves, with four 2-bulb 48-inch T8 fixtures over each shelf. The T8 commercial shoplight fixtures cost about $8 each at Home Depot. For cuttings and seed starting, I don't use overdriven fixtures. I recommend cool white bulbs. I used to use the 4100°K Philips cool white T8's in boxes of 10 for $19.95 at Home Depot, but now I prefer to spend a bit more and get 6500°K bulbs. They look subjectively much brighter.

    I tried using 2½" square pots for the cuttings (the same pots that I use for single seeds), but they proved to be much too small. I rooted some cuttings in pots made from the bottoms of 2-liter soft drink bottles, and I will repeat that, because those pots are transparent and you can see the root development as the roots reach the sides of the pots. They are about 4¼" in diameter and I cut them about 4" high for cuttings. But commercial 3½" or 4" square pots would probably work just fine. As the cuttings grow into zinnia plants, you will need to repot them.

    I am experimenting right now on insecticides to deal with thrips indoors. I have a few plants inside right now that have thrips and they are a welcome test subject this time. I will use an imidacloprid containing systemic insecticide, but I haven't determined which product and which dilution will be most appropriate. I will keep you posted on that. You probably won't have a thrips problem for the first few weeks, anyway.

    Until your cuttings strike roots, it will be necessary to keep them under humidity domes. Tall 7-inch domes (or a jury-rigged equivalent) are adequate, unless you have some extra tall cuttings. The cuttings usually have enough roots so that you can remove the domes in 10 to 14 days.

    I'll give more details in a subsequent message. As it happens, I am planning to start a few more cuttings this weekend, myself.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Thanks so much for the information on rooting cuttings. This is a helpful addition to your earlier posted information (in the first message of this thread) about the hormones you have used to promote rooting.

    I will wait a week or two, then start some cuttings from the two plants I want to propagate. This will be a trial run. I want to catch these plants while they are still more or less in their prime. It seems as the season goes on, the zinnias tend to get brown patches, from drying and insects, wind, rain damage, etc.

    JG

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I want to learn how to do the cuttings so that one day when I'm more advanced, I can have the info at hand. I think before I try any cuttings, I need to get MUCH better at starting from seed indoors. My seedlings sprouted quickly and then wanted to get as tall as possible with no development, then fall over.

    JG, good luck with that white x ruby cross! I think any flower you get should bring some interest. I had thought of crossing the Z. maritima with a Z. peruviana. That's why I asked for your source.

    Your 'Persian Carpet' doesn't even look like a zinnia, but I like the subtlety. I like the one 'Chippendale', especially its wide petals, and the little clownish one too. Did one of your photos disappear after the petal collection photo?

    I want to grow 'Aztec Sun'. Does anyone know if it is a polyploid like 'Old Mexico'?

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HC,

    I think 'Old Mexico' is just a diploid (2n = 24) and is a member of Z. haageana. Maybe by 'Aztec Sun,' you mean Aztec Sunset. I am pretty sure it, too, is a diploid Z. haageana. I think several examples of Zinnia polyploids would be the Z. marylandica, an allotetraploid (combination of two different genomes in this case) represented by the 'Profusion' and related series (2n = 4X = 46) and some of the autotetraploids like 'State Fair' (2n = 4X = 48).

    I have to look these things up to keep them straight, and usually it is before I consider a cross!

    It would be interesting to see what you might get with a Z. maritima x Z. peruviana cross. The unpredictability makes it fun.

    Do you think your indoor seedlings are getting tall for lack of light? Do you use fluorescent fixtures to provide light? I know that plants can often get tall and weak because they aren't getting enough light. If you get a chance, refer back to past threads of "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias." MM has provided a lot of information on sources of light! I found earlier this year that indoor gardening is fun but presents many challenges. MM gets very intense light that plants like zinnias really thrive upon, by making his fixtures "overdriven," and he gives info in one of these past threads. I found that I could easily start fairly strong seedlings using pairs of 48" regular fluorescent tubes several inches above the tops of the plants. Then I experimented with Sylvania Gro-Lux and GE Plant and Aquarium fluorescent tubes, and really didn't see a big difference. As the plants get larger, then the more intense light helps them thrive. I didn't grow mature plants for long, so didn't get into the overdriven light.

    JG

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello!

    I have had more chances to post today because it has been all gardening and I like short breaks in between weeding, etc. Anyway, my "July Bonnet" zinnia has produced two more flowers with another on its way-- the second, fortunately, having some disc flowers that shed pollen so that I can self both flowers. Here are some views of the larger flower:

    {{gwi:16653}}{{gwi:16654}}

    I know it is not exactly an aesthetically pleasing flower, but I like the fact that it is different!

    Also, just to try rooting cuttings, I tried some of MM's techniques (at least, partially). There was a branch on my July Bonnet plant where I had removed a flower, so I dipped the stem in Rootone (which also contained fungicide) and placed it in a soil mixture with fertilizers which a local nursery sells as "Metro Mix," and which had been moistened with water. There were two sets of leaves and I removed the lower set (the area of the "node") and both the bottom of the stem and the node were dusted in Rootone then placed it in a hole I made in the soil mix. I thought MM's idea of a transarent bottle was good, so that you can see the developing roots. So, I got an old plastic apple juice bottle and used that as my container. I used the cut off top of the bottle as the humidity dome. There are some places where the parts of the bottle come together where some air can get through. I am going to place the bottle in an area outside where it is always shady so that the stem doesn't get stressed out. Later, I found a small branch coming off the same plant that had a growing tip at the end, so I put that in as well. I will let everyone know how this works out!

    {{gwi:16655}}

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    I hope you have success with your July Bonnet zinnia cutting. It would be great if July Bonnet could be the start of a whole strain of "Bonnet" zinnias in a complete color range. That may be a lot to hope for, but zinnia breeding is based pretty much on hope and optimism and anticipation.

    I noticed that this Part 6 message thread had now gone to a scrollbar format, and I think the cause is that some of your pictures posted on Wed, Aug 13, 08 at 0:28 got inadvertently placed side-by-side instead of stacked vertically. The individual pictures were modestly sized at 640x480 pixels, but the side-by-side placement made each pair of pictures act like one 1280x480 pixel picture.

    You can't change the side-by-side arrangement now, because our messages can't be edited, at least, not by us. If you want to take the trouble to re-crop and/or resize your 640x480 pics in that group enough to make the pairs total no more than 986 pixels wide, then delete those six in Photobucket, and then re-upload the cropped/resized pics to Photobucket, using the same original filenames, our scrollbar here should go away. The side-by-side pictures are

    Zinnias001-1.jpg Zinnias002-2.jpg
    Zinnias006-1.jpg Zinnias007-1.jpg
    Zinnias0091.jpg Zinnias008-1.jpg

    Or, if you are too busy right now, leave them as is. I probably should start a new part to this series, anyway, just to keep the load time for new viewers within reason. Since we "regulars" read this thread fairly regularly, our load times are fairly quick, since our browsers simply re-use pictures from the Temporary Internet Files folder in the Windows folder (for Microsoft Windows users).

    If there is some air circulation into and out of your cutting bottle environment, make sure the growing medium doesn't dry out. Ideally, it should be a nearly sealed environment for the first two weeks. Until the cutting sprouts roots, it can very easily lose water through the leaves faster than it can get water through the cut end of the stem.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everyone,

    MM pointed out that my side-by-side photos force a lot of us to have to scroll our screens to see everything. I apologize for that! I quickly entered photographs without double-checking the size. So all who have had to do this because of those August 13 pictures, please dump your temporary internet files, as I have deleted those large pictures from Photobucket, and your screen should no longer require scrolling. For those of you who are new, no worry--here are the zinnias that I had shown on that day:

    The Whirligigs:

    {{gwi:16656}}{{gwi:16657}}

    Then, a plot of Benary zinnias, followed by a plot of mixed species zinnias:

    {{gwi:16660}}{{gwi:16662}}

    Finally, a Rich Farm Zig-zag zinnia that didn't show stripes but a mix of pastel colors, followed by a zinnia that was injured and produced a near-double flower:

    {{gwi:16664}}{{gwi:16643}}

    I found on Photobucket I couldn't just edit the initial photos because of the format in which they had been originally entered.

    MM, thanks for your help with the cuttings! I did go ahead and tape up the cracks where the top and bottom of the bottle come together to make sure the plants keep sufficient moisture. I followed the Rootone directions, dusting the stem of the cutting from the very bottom cut area to the area that would end up 1/4" above the soil line, and I am encouraged by the sight of a tiny root that has appeared above the soil.

    I am beginning to believe in pollination by wind as increasingly I notice that I am harvesting what seem to be fully developed seeds from plants that have no disc flowers whatsoever. I know that some insects are attracted by the nectar of the flowers. I'm not sure where that is located, but I watch butterflies as they travel about, and usually they are attracted to central parts of flowers where there are disc florets. As MM mentioned before, it may be that accidental visits by insects to flowers with no disc florets help pollinate them.

    JG

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm glad I asked about my pitiful experience with starting seed indoors. I suspected that I had given them too much light and too much water causing them to become lanky. I used one GroLux lamp about one foot from the tray and light coming from a window was about 2 feet away.
    In the spring when I try again, I will pour thoroughly over MM's recommendations. I believe I underestimated zinnias' need for light because I had read that they germinate equally well in light or dark.

    JG, are you watering your cutting from below or is the clay pot just to keep the plastic bottle balanced? I like everything about your 'July Bonnet' cultivar and along with MM, wish you the best with cuttings and with seed from selfing. You can't look at that flower and not smile.

    I have some good news. Last week brought the first bloom from my second zinnia patch. I had already planted zinnias in the spring before knowing about this forum. After starting to read the forum, I had to plant another patch. While some of the plants seem to still be in their infancy ('Red Spider' and 'Magellan'), this product of selfing a 'Canary Bird' went from seed to bloom in 37 days. That in itself qualifies it as a keeper. The plant is well branched and the bloom is an airy lemon yellow instead of canary.
    Considering that I hand cultivate and have used no fertilizer, I am amazed by my original patch. I stand 5'9" and presently I have eight blooms that are taller than me. I'm sure that none of the parent plants from last year were over five feet. Most of the tallest ones I am crossing with other tall ones or with 'Swizzles'.

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HC,

    About germination-- some seeds like zinnia can germinate in light or in dark, in part because they have energy stored in the seed that supports the tiny embryo in its growth and emergence from the seed coat, given it has adequate water and temperature. But that's all that germination is. Once the plant is exposed to the light when the shoot and root emerge, germination is essentially over. Now the characteristics of the particular plant species come into play as to how much light it requires to thrive and grow. After germination, the zinnia is one of those plants that does well in a lot of light. So, once the plant has emerged from the seed with or without light, then it must support its own growth through photosynthesis, dependent on light. Without enough light, plants respond by growing tall and lanky--a response that may enable them to reach a spot where there is more light that then allows them to survive. That's wordy, sorry!

    With the cuttings I am trying to start, I am watering the soil from beneath. I also thought that with holes in the bottom of the bottle, I would have better drainage. Starting those cuttings was kind of an impulsive thing I did mainly because some of the parts of "Bonnet" were becoming less and less exposed to the sun and losing color. I thought at that point I might try a last-ditch effort to save those parts. MM, what do you think about watering that way? Should I be keeping a totally closed system?

    Wow, HC, you were lucky to get those flowers in such a short time! I bet you can easily get two generations in one season where you are. It will be interesting to see how your Swizzle -tall zinnia crosses turn out! Hope you can share pictures one day of your offspring! The yellow-flowered plant must be pretty.

    My taller zinnias are also very tall--shoulder-height when I am about 5'7". I have at least one plant that has gotten up to about 6'!

    Here is a small zinnia (coming from my "Sunbow" seeds) that has pretty angular petals, making it almost starlike.

    {{gwi:16666}}

    JG

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    We'd like to see more photos...;-)..

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG, HC

    Well, here are some photos of recent Whirligigs, Zig Zags, and Carrousels that have bloomed for me. Nothing really unusual in this group, but I am pollinating them with spider-flowered pollen with the hope of getting spider flowered bicolors. {{gwi:16667}}{{gwi:16668}}I am pulling or cutting out about 95% of my bicolors as they bloom, based on dingy colors, not being bicolor, being single, etc. There are many ways a bicolor can go "wrong".

    JG, I see that you produced nicely down-sized versions of your previously larger 640x480 pictures, the new smaller versions being:

    Zinnias001.jpg Zinnias002-1.jpg
    Zinnias006.jpg Zinnias007.jpg
    Zinnias008.jpg Zinnias0091.jpg

    I didn't mean to suggest that you edit the pictures in Photobucket. Just delete them, as you did. Then upload the new smaller pictures but, this is key, use the exact same original filenames. You could do that by copying those new, smaller pictures to a separate folder on your computer, and rename them in that folder to the original larger 640x480 names:

    Zinnias001-1.jpg Zinnias002-2.jpg
    Zinnias006-1.jpg Zinnias007-1.jpg
    Zinnias0091.jpg Zinnias008-1.jpg

    Then you could re-upload those smaller pictures from that new folder to the original Photobucket album and they would automatically restore the original links, but to your new smaller pictures. That is what I was trying to suggest in my last message on on Mon, Aug 18, 08 at 2:42.

    But no matter, the scrollbar is now gone from this thread, and I didn't even have to do anything to my Temporary Internet Files. I just hit my F5 key, which does a "Refresh". Thank you very much, JG, for fixing the problem, by whatever method.

    I made and installed several new nets today, because the bumblebees and their friends seem to be much more numerous for some reason. I was even getting some pollen from under a net and a bumblebee flew right up and tried to help himself to some of my "protected" pollen. He startled me, and I reflexively flipped him. He buzzed around excitedly, but didn't sting me. Actually, I can't recall having been stung by a bumblebee, and I have flipped them on more than one occasion. But I wouldn't try that with a hornet.

    We are just coming out of a multi-week rainy wet period, and I have a lot of foliage disease as a result, and I have been spraying with Physan 20 the last couple of days. This evening I did a foliar feed of trace elements. I have used a lot of sand in my garden expansion to extend my amount of soil and, as a result, my soil is rather low in available nutrients. Maybe next year I will buy a load of topsoil and spread it.

    I have also been combining Physan 20 with other soluble nutrients in my sprays. The trick is to pre-dilute the solutions before mixing them. That also works with combining soluble nutrients. For example, calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate can precipitate out some calcium sulfate (gypsum) is you just toss them into a bucket and squirt in some water. But if you pre-dilute them in separate buckets, you can combine the dilute solutions with no significant problem.

    You can also combine calcium nitrate and complete nutrient formulas like Miracle-Gro or Better-Gro by the same pre-dilution scheme. If you just add calcium nitrate pellets to a Miracle-Gro solution, the locally concentrated calcium ions can form an insoluble calcium phosphate precipitate with the phosphate ions in the Miracle-Gro. Pre-dilution solves that problem. Before I learned about pre-dilution, I used to feed my seedlings with a separate calcium nitrate solution, to avoid precipitation.

    Now I keep separate prediluted "stock" solutions of magnesium sulfate, calcium nitrate, and trace elements to combine when needed with commercial soluble nutrient formulas. The first year that I grew big seedlings indoors under lights, I encountered serious calcium deficiency symptoms before I realized that none of my commercial nutrient formulas contained any calcium. And calcium is the fourth most used nutrient. Hydroponics growers use a lot of calcium nitrate.

    MM

  • DYH
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Inspiring photos and stories! Very educational, too.

    I'm in awe of all of this!

    Cameron

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I really like the 'Sunbow'. That petal shape just draws you into the flower.
    The top two photos of the bicolors attract me most. I'm wondering which kind of bicolor would best work with spider petals.
    Cameron, have you read parts 1-5 also? They are quite enlightening. Btw, was it wits or hits?

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cameron,

    You are most welcome here. Please feel free to make comments, ask questions, or whatever. Compared to Maine, you have a much milder climate in North Carolina than we do. If you have access to any zinnia seed now, you could still "get in the game" by planting a Fall crop of zinnias now and, when they bloom, keep only your favorite(s) to save seeds from for use next Spring. That would give you a big head start for next year. And you never know when you will get something very interesting out of a commercial seed packet.

    You can do quite a lot by just selecting the best specimens to save seed from. That is actually better than what the commercial seed growers do. If they do anything at all, their people just "rogue" the seed fields, by chopping out some of the worst specimens.

    For example, I planted some White Burpeeanas from Stokes this year, and they were all white, but apparently that was the only requirement their seed growers imposed. Years ago, they probably started with a relatively pure strain of White Burpeeanas (in the "good old days" Burpee offered the Burpeeanas in separate colors). But, over the years, under field grown conditions, the strain has "run out" into a mix of flower forms and plant habits. I was looking for a "white spider flowered" specimen, and so far I haven't found it. Next year I will try again, with a bigger planting of "White Burpeeanas", as well as mixed Burpeeanas from Burpee.

    By saving your own seeds, you can do quite a lot. You can develop strains of separate colors from mixed varieties. And, by picking your favorites from among the natural variations that occur, you can get zinnias that appeal to your tastes. Bees will do some random hybridization for you, and it isn't hard to learn to do your own cross pollinations.

    But you are welcome here, whether you raise zinnias or not.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HC,

    "The top two photos of the bicolors attract me most."

    I like them too, because there is a kind of "powdery" interface between the colors. They are both Zig Zags. That color transition is fairly common in the Zig Zags. Here is another such specimen:

    {{gwi:16669}}

    "I'm wondering which kind of bicolor would best work with spider petals."

    I have always thought that it would look really neat to have a very dark black-purple spider flower with bright white tips at the ends of the petals. Under low light, all that you would see would be the tips. But any spider flowers with dark or bright colors and contrasting light-colored tips would be good. I would like to create a strain like that. I would name it something like "Fireworks" except that I think that name has already been used for a zinnia. Maybe "Starburst". I guess it is a little too early to be thinking of a name. There is always that little detail of creating the strain first.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HC,

    In an earlier message you asked,

    "Also, I'm reading that a breeding goal for zinnias is to have narrower leaves. Broader leaves allow more water to leave the plant, which means more watering is required. Do any of you consider leaf width when choosing breeders?"

    And I answered that I prefer long, pointed leaves, partly because they look a little "classier" and partly because they produce a more "open" plant for better air circulation and more efficient solar absorption.

    I forgot to mention that there are other properties that I prefer, and one of them is frilly or waved edges on the leaves. This picture shows an example of what I am referring to. It was taken "today", actually technically yesterday, but it still feels like today to me.

    {{gwi:16671}}

    Occasionally you will see these waved edges on zinnia leaves, sometimes much more waved than in this example. I like the effect, and I have designated this zinnia as a "breeder" mainly because of the leaf style.

    MM

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm glad you shared a photo of the wavy-leafed plant. I have never seen that before and I'm glad you're choosing it as a breeder. I'm hoping that JG will choose her angular-petaled 'Sunbow' as a breeder too. I have gone back several times just to look at it.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HC,

    "I'm hoping that JG will choose her angular-petaled 'Sunbow' as a breeder too."

    Me too. I think I will try some Sunbow seeds next year to see if can get some of those pointed petals. They are fairly common in Persian Carpets, but I haven't seen that petal form in Z. violacea before. I see that Johnny's Seeds carries Sunbow zinnia seed. I guess the name is a take-off on the word "rainbow".

    I have seen a petal shape mutant from time to time that makes part of the petal a closed tube. Sometimes the whole petal, except for a bugle-like opening at the end, is enclosed. This is a picture of an example that I took yesterday:

    {{gwi:16673}}

    These petals enclose the stigmas, which would seem to make them inaccessible to pollination. I guess I will split some of these petals and apply pollen from a similar mutant. However, I have serious doubts about creating a strain with these petals, because of the difficulty in pollinating them. But sometimes I am not seriously working toward a strain, but just "fooling around" with my zinnias. If the bees can do it, so can I.

    MM

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It took me a while to relocate the reference I had read about 'Old Mexico'. This quote is from Flower Breeding and Genetics: Issues, Challenges and Opportunities for the 21st Century. It is found on page 347.

    "'Old Mexico', an autotetraploid Z. haageana cultivar, was released in 1962. All autotetraploid zinnia cultivars released to date are open-pollinated. Relative to diploids, tetraploid zinnias have larger flowers and thicker, stronger stems but also have poorer seed germination, less branching, delayed flowering, and fewer capitula. Difficulties also occur with producing autotetraploid lines with a uniform phenotype due to additional alleles affecting ligule color and plant habit."

    This makes it sound to me that I could grow 'Old Mexico' and not worry about it cross pollinating with other cultivars.

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good afternoon!

    Thanks for the correction, HC. I knew 'Old Mexico' was a
    member of species haageana, but hadn't gone further in the article to see that it was an exception in that group for chromosome number.

    MM, I like unusual flowers and that white example with the tubular petals is really interesting. Could that plant possibly have a scabiosa ancestor? Just wondering....I like the wavy leaves in the one yellow-flowered plant you have, too. I don't think that I've seen that waviness uniformly shown in a plant in more than one pair of leaves.

    OK, I just had to suggest this as a name for MM's dream zinnia--the dark colored spider flower with light tips....how about "Black Widow"? (I hope he neither gets mad nor even....) Anyway, joking aside, that would be an extremely desirable flower to create!

    The Sunbow flower I have was easy to pick out among all of the rest of the Sunbows because of its unusual petals. I didn't get it from a commercial source but from a member listed in the 2008 Flower and Herb Exchange Yearbook (http://www.seedsavers.org/prodinfo.asp?number=FHE)--don't know if it could be a cross with something else as he offered other types of zinnias as well, listing 'State Fair' and a zinnia he called "Mexican," which he wrote he collected in a small village in Mexico. Anyway, I am going to try and cross it with one of the Persian Carpet plants as some of them also have a similar petal form, and who knows? maybe my plant already has Persian Carpet sap
    in its stem! ;-).....

    JG

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG, I hope you will also self one of the blooms of the sunbow. I bet you're right about it having Persian Carpet in its sap. How about the name "Boutonniere"?

    MM, I'll be glad to work with some tubular zinnias if you choose not to. White or gold is such a perfect color for them.

  • DYH
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Thank you so much for your kind welcome. I've not yet grown zinnias as we built this house in 2005 and I've been busy getting the "bones" built and getting the perennials established.

    I also have the challenge of deer and rabbits outside my cottage garden fence. Some friends of mine protect their seedlings with a rabbit fence, then are okay when the zinnias get tall. I'm going with tall varieties.

    However, I have already ordered some zinnia seeds (Envy, Purple Prince, Lilac Emperor, Dream in Lavender-Rose) from Swallowtail Garden Seeds and Diane's Seeds.

    I didn't realize that I could still sow some for this year. Where can I learn more?

    Thanks so very much!
    Cameron

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everyone, again,

    Welcome to you, Cameron! If you start with "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias Part 1" you will learn a lot at this site, as well as pick up on some good references in the literature. And, MM, in particular, is extremely knowledgable about zinnias with (at least) several years of experience in breeding and growing them.

    HC, "Boutonniere" is a good name. If I'm so lucky to even get a second generation of the same thing, I would be happy!
    If any of the flowers bear pollen, I definitely will self.
    I cast a net over that flower when I found it.

    MM, there's one thing I don't think any one of us has mentioned on this thread that would be really desirable in zinnias....FRAGRANCE!! I've just been out in my garden and noticed that some of the newest yellow Benary flowers have just the faintest of a sweet fragrance. Several of my newer pink cactus flowers did, too. And I do mean faint, but not imaginary. Has anyone else noticed that any of your zinnias have a fragrance? That could be something else to breed for! And, this could be another flower-specific attractant for the insects and hummingbirds. Another science fair thought--sit out in the garden over a period of time and see what creatures go to what flowers by type, then categorize the differences. I wish I were that age again! ;-))

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Yes, some zinnias do have a little fragrance. I have sniffed them from time to time. We have been overlooking that. I guess we should be sniffing our zinnia blooms regularly to see what they have. The neighbors may think we are daft. But, if there are some fragrances hidden away in our zinnia's DNA spirals, recombinations from F2s and such could be a likely way to coax them out. I still think zinnias are full of surprises, just waiting for the right set of circumstances to bring them out.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HC,

    "I'll be glad to work with some tubular zinnias if you choose not to. White or gold is such a perfect color for them."

    A cooperative breeding effort might be a good idea. First I would want to get enough breeder seed of tubulars to share, and verify that they wouldn't be a waste of your time.

    I had two tubulars appear in my Burpee Hybrids last year. I thought I would be able to recognize them as they went to seed, because the tubes were so different than the other petals. But I was wrong. A lot of the dried split tubes simply fell off of the seedheads, leaving seeds in the heads. I should have labeled them. I knew the area where they appeared (by a coincidence they were only a few feet from each other) and I just saved seeds from all the zinnias in that area. However, I did not plant those seeds this year. Probably will next year.

    The tubulars aren't that unusual. If you have a couple of thousand zinnia plants, you probably have one or two right now. I have two that I know of, and I am pretty sure there is a third (an orange one). I still have quite a few plants that haven't bloomed yet, so another one isn't impossible.

    I'll try to take pictures of the other two tomorrow. I plan to intercross them and see if the progeny have tubes or not. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the progeny don't have tubes. But that remains to be seen.

    When I first heard about this zinnia mutation, it was referred to as "bugle flowered". Here is a link to a blurry picture, showing a zinnia plant with several completely tubular flowered blooms. I was unable to get seed from "davefan". I suspect his plant didn't yield any viable seed, because the stigmas were totally buried in the tubes of the "bugle petals".

    I have yet to see one like that in my zinnia patch. Since you are interested, I will keep you informed of my progress in this area. A cooperative breeding effort could be mutually beneficial.

    Today I placed some pollen from a scarlet tubular specimen onto the white one pictured. I didn't split any tubes yet, but several stigmas were at least partially exposed. So far, the scarlet tubular was the only one to produce pollen, and it produced only a single floret today. I will be on the alert for any additional tubular petaled zinnias that might appear in my patch. I am also considering taking cuttings this Fall to carry them over during the Winter. However, so far I don't know if any additional blooms that might appear on those plants will be tubular or not.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good evening!

    That white tubular zinnia looks like a miniature composite calla lily! I think you should definitely attempt to get more like it!

    JG

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I too thought the tubular looks like little calla lilies, but wasn't sure how to spell it. (I never see mistakes on this site, so I try not to insert any.)
    When I read that you have an orange tubular, I actually felt my heart skip or drop or something. I may have to start taking this forum in increments.

    My boxes storing saved seed neatly filed in sandwich bags with index cards is making me realize I'm, God willing, going to be doing a lot of digging/preparing through the winter months.

    I was surprised recently when JG said she only got ten seeds from a bloom. I always have scads. Yesterday I collected seed from a super double, tall purple that had never produced any disk florets. I had kept it covered with a hairnet during the time I was daily cross pollinating, but later stole its net. I knew there was the chance that bees could further pollinate. :( I only got nine seed from this huge bloom and now I'm wondering if my efforts (or the bees') were successful.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HC,

    "(I never see mistakes on this site, so I try not to insert any.)"

    I am never sure whether a word is misspelt or not, so I routinely use ieSpell. It is a useful free plug-in for Internet Explorer, if that is your browser, and it will let you add words to its dictionary if you are sure that the word in question is correctly spelled, according to your wishes. Incidentally, I did add "misspelt" to my ieSpell dictionary, because ieSpell flagged it. I did not add mispelt, which I have been known to use on occasions out of perversity. Maybe I should have just said "misspelled". You invoke ieSpell by pressing the right-hand mouse button while your "focus" is in the text that you are editing and, in the pop-up menu, highlight and click on "Check Spelling".

    Here is a picture of the scarlet tubular that I took today.

    {{gwi:16674}}

    I have netted the tubulars to protect their pollen. I think they have possibilities as a strain, which could then be progressively improved by inter-crossing and re-selection.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HC,

    Usually I get lots of seeds, too, but the time when I harvested only ten seeds from a white cactus flower was when it was crossed with a Persian Carpet. I honestly didn't expect any seeds at all since I was crossing different species and collecting seeds from the very first attempt, so we'll see.

    MM, keep your tubulars going! I hope those unusual petals are a hereditary thing. You could get some interesting flowers in such a line.

    JG

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good afternoon!

    Back on Aug 14, 08 at 23:15, I posted a picture of a Persian Carpet I thought looked a lot like a strawflower. Here is a flower from another PC plant:

    {{gwi:16769}}

    These two bi-colored flowers are similar in that they have petal tips that are of a darker color than the rest of the flower, in contrast to other bi-colored flowers. This might be something to breed for, so I think I will try and cross this flower with a white cactus flower that I have growing nearby. A light or white-colored flower with orange or red petal tips would be different.

    Here is a Persian Carpet flower that has serrated, rather than smooth-edged petals:

    {{gwi:16770}}

    And, here is a fluffy flower (a little weather and insect damaged):

    {{gwi:16771}}

    JC

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whoops! I stand corrected. MM has shown at least one flower (Wed, May 7, 08 at 4:44) that has a white center and red tips, although the "tips" of the flowers are much more extended to the center......

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    I like the "teeth" on your Persian Carpet and I can't recall having seen that effect on a Persian Carpet. So that is unusual, I believe. As you know, I like "toothy" petals. {{gwi:16773}}The dark tipped Persian Carpets do seem unusual enough just to select them for possible selfing or crossing with other dark-tipped Persian Carpets or Aztec Sunsets.

    I don't recall having seen a pink Persian Carpet. Have you had any pink Persian Carpets? Or any pure white ones? A person could make quite a project out of just selecting separate colors out of the Persian Carpets.

    I also haven't seen a zinnia like your "fluffy flower". Never mind the weather and insect damage. We enjoy seeing what your zinnias look like whether they are pristine or not. Our five-week plus rainy period gave me some serious foliage problems, and I have been spraying a lot in an attempt to keep the problems under as much control as I can. I also still get cosmetic damage from Japanese Beetles, although their numbers have been declining lately. The blister beetles were a problem (they love to eat pollen florets), but I haven't seen one for over a week now.

    With regard to the photo on the left, I am very pleased that not only do the leaves have wavy edges, but the texture of the petals is rather frilly as well. I hope this specimen puts out some pollen, because the first thing I will do is self it.

    "I like unusual flowers and that white example with the tubular petals is really interesting. Could that plant possibly have a scabiosa ancestor? Just wondering..."

    You know, when you first mentioned that, I didn't think it was very likely. However, today I have been opening up several of the tubular petals to expose the stigmas and pollinate them and I discovered something that I didn't expect at all. In with the stigmas on some of the tubular petals, there seemed to be some vestigial anthers, which are rather common in the scabiosa flowered florets. You may be on to something. I think I will put some pollen from scabiosa flowered zinnias on the tubulars and vice versa. And, of course, I will continue selfing the tubulars and inter-crossing them with each other. I am encouraged that three of the tubulars have produced pollen. So far the orange tubular hasn't put out any pollen, but I hope it does.

    At this moment, I can't imagine what a cross between a tubular specimen and a scabiosa specimen will look like. The question in my mind is whether the scabiosa guard petals will be tubular, or whether the scabiosa florets will be tubular (they already are, kind of), or whether tubular petals will show up in all parts of the scabiosa flowered bloom, or maybe nowhere.

    However, if tubularity behaves as a recessive, I will still grow the F2s in an attempt to coax the tubular phenotype back out into some interesting recombinations.

    I took some pictures of the tubulars before I started opening up the tubes to expose the stigmas. Good thing I did, because with all of the tubular petal surgery, they are starting to look pretty ragged.

    So far none of the tubulars is 100% tubular. The red tubular has only about 40% tubular petals. But I am still including it in my breeding program. I think more fully tubular blooms will come in good time.

    MM

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm glad you decided to work further with the tubulars. When you first posted one, I thought you were still undecided.

    When I saw the pink Persian, I wondered the same thing. I didn't know they came in pink.

    I've checked to see if I have any wavy-leafed plants and I don't, but I sure like them. I've also gone about trying to know if any of my zinnias have fragrance. So far, no luck. I attempted to sniff a 'Swizzle', but decided I'd wait until an emergency crew was available to upright me. If anyone does decide to breed for fragrance, do so on plants that are tall enough to access.

    MM, I tried to send you an email, but I have no idea if it was successful as the computer signed me off completely after I touched "send".

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HZ,

    I sympathize with you about not wanting to bend over to sniff low zinnias. I have a few low zinnias myself, but don't like bending over to pollinate them. I have had lower back trouble, on and off, and I try to avoid any unnecessary strains on my back, or I have a sore back for days. I use Aleve® on a regular basis. If I do cross low zinnias with anything, it will be with something taller.

    "I tried to send you an email, but I have no idea if it was successful as the computer signed me off completely after I touched "send"."

    I did get your email just fine, but I prefer not to get pictures by email because my email mailbox is rather small and it doesn't take many pictures to fill it up and then incoming email "bounces". You can join Photobucket for free, upload your pictures there, and link to them here as JG and I do. Photobucket lets you organize your pictures in "Albums" and I take advantage of that convenience. I have an Album named "986wides" for my 986-pixel-wide pics that I post here. You can pick any username you want, as long as someone else doesn't already have it.

    Here is a picture of my rose-red tubular.

    {{gwi:16774}}

    Less than half of its petals are tubular, but I am still using it as a "breeder". As JG mentioned, we still don't know if this tubular characteristic is even genetic or not. If I get any kind of tubular strain started, then I will know that it is genetic and that by more intercrossing, selfing, and re-selection I can improve the strain. And, as new tubular specimens show up in my other zinnias, I can also incorporate them. Keep an eye out on your zinnia patch, in case any tubulars show up.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good evening!

    MM, the yellow flower is definitely one you want to keep! The leaves are an interesting addition. It has "substance." And of course, the tubular flowers are one more item. You're getting some nice results from your breeding efforts!!

    Earlier I had mentioned and shown a zinnia with variegated leaves. Flowers formed on that plant, but wherever a white streak in the stem continued into the flower, no petals were formed. Not a good mutation. I threw the plant away.

    This plant pictured below is the closest I got to blue this year. I took the picture when the flower was just opening; it the end it turned out to be a quite large cactus flower. I saved the seeds. I will try and select for bluer offspring.

    {{gwi:15777}}

    I looked in vain for a tubular flower. No luck! Anyway, I guess the closest I could get is this Benary flower that, unlike the rest, has rolled-up petals.

    {{gwi:15823}}

    I have some Persian Carpet flowers that are kind of a pink-purple with white-tipped petals as I showed in my last post.
    I don't think that is a true pink, just a purple that is lighter with maybe some pink tints at best.

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    The yellow waved/frilly zinnia still hasn't put out any pollen. Much to my disappointment, several of its stigmas seemed to have been fertilized. Tomorrow I will net it, because it seems that curious bumblebees have partially pollinated it despite the absence of pollen.

    Here is a picture of the orange tubular, before I surgically disfigured it. Incidentally, once again, I found some small pollen anthers, and a hint that at least one of them had successfully selfed itself inside the tube. That could be good news for the survival of the tubulars in a field-grown environment.

    {{gwi:16775}}

    So far it hasn't put out any pollen, but the other three have and I have been using their pollen on this one. The scarlet tubular has put out quite a bit of pollen and I have also used it on three of my scabiosa flowered breeders.

    Today I was just looking at one of my Burpee Hybrids that looks very much like your pale bluish lavender bloom. I hope it will put out some pollen, because I would like to self it. I didn't plant any of my bluish lavender scabiosa echinacea flowered specimens this year. I wish my garden were much larger in area. I still doubt that we will get a pale blue that stays blue in the sun, but who knows? Zinnias are full of surprises. Your rolled-up petal Benary is a case in point.

    MM

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I totally LOVE the tubulars. Each one has been stunning!

    Once again I want to thank you for all I am learning here. I had never used PhotoBucket because I understood that I would need a digital camera, and then I had been told by our librarian that I could not bring the card from a camera here to use on the computer because "that is how viruses destroy everything that our county has tried to provide". Let's see what I've learned without destroying anything:
    {{gwi:16776}}
    I wanted to share this photo because we had talked about bicolors that had the darker color to the outside. I didn't notice this flower when it was younger, so it could have been solid. Now that it is maturing, the pigment seems to be pushed to the edges.

    I like JG's Benary because the underside contrasts so nicely with the petal color.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HZ,

    "I had never used PhotoBucket because I understood that I would need a digital camera, and then I had been told by our librarian that I could not bring the card from a camera here to use on the computer because "that is how viruses destroy everything that our county has tried to provide". Let's see what I've learned without destroying anything:"

    {{gwi:16777}}Apparently your phone takes some very small pictures. The picture you have linked to is only 160 x 120 pixels. That is not very big.

    I experimented with increasing your picture size some but, as you can see, the result is rather blurry. There isn't a lot of image detail in a 160 x 120 pixel picture. Does your phone have an option to take larger pictures?

    I'm not criticizing your phone pictures. Please, do continue to share them. But since you are a gardener who appreciates flowers, in my opinion you would enjoy an entry level digital camera. And, when you get your own computer, you would enjoy an entry level picture editor, like Adobe Photoshop Elements. In the meantime, your phone and the library computer seem like an excellent enhancement to your ability to communicate about your zinnias.

    Your flower does seem to have become a bicolor, or was a bicolor to start with. The effect looks good. Actually, with that petal shape and the light color at the base of the petals, your zinnia kind of reminds me of a rose. Do you happen to know what variety of zinnia it is?

    I have to wonder why your librarian thinks your phone pictures might somehow transmit a virus to the library computer. I don't know anything about computer viruses, but I never heard of one starting in a phone picture. But our digital world does have its marvels, so maybe it would be possible, somehow.

    MM

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This flower is from saved seed from Ferry Morse 'Violet Queen'. I've not seen a lot of variety in color, but a little bit in flower form.

    A nice digital camera is at the top of my list for when I find a job. After seven years on a job, I was replaced by a younger illegal alien. A new wave of them have displaced way too many locals here. I'd say 20% of locals are without work here and our roads, stores and offices are clogged with illegals with their hands out and their pockets already full. Anywhere you go looking for work, the personnel offices are staffed by Hispanics, so go figure.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HZ,

    I sympathize with your unemployment situation. Somehow I didn't associate Georgia with this problem, partly because of no common border with Mexico. That situation in the personnel offices has a bizarre science fiction flavor. Well, here's to better times.

    MM

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you. Sorry to have gone off on everyone.

    It took forever for this thread to come up this morning (about 21 minutes). It's never taken more than 3 minutes before. Tomorrow all may go smoothly, but I'm wondering if it's time for Part 7?
    I know that the wonders of zinnias are just beginning to reveal themselves and that we are going to have much more to learn/share. Hopefully, Dave, Cameron, pls8xx, BlueAngel and others will move over with us.

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm noticing that each of the tubulars has had a petal underside color that complements nicely the color of the bloom. I have a number of purples whose underside is an ugly whitish green. I'm crazy for the purples, but have been crossing them with orange, strawberry, and wine in hopes I'll get some purples with an underside that goes nicely with a variety of petal shapes. I don't know if the top color governs the underside color or perhaps the other way around (a base?). I feel that a stark white + purple - red is somehow the key to a blue zinnia; and that getting the underside color right is part of the deal. thinking aloud

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HZ,

    "I'm noticing that each of the tubulars has had a petal underside color that complements nicely the color of the bloom."

    At best the backside of a zinnia petal is a dull green-veined version of the front side. The tubulars, particularly the white one, have been lucky to have reasonably good looking backsides, but even they could have better looking reverse sides. Some zinnia petals are up-rolled, and show a lot of backside. In my opinion, a major improvement in zinnias would be to have better backside color. It could be the same color as the front side, or a different color, but it needs to be a nice clear color, and not just veined. Back in Part 4 I showed a picture of a purple scabiosa type with white on the reverse that I liked. But I am still looking for a mutant or recombinant with really good looking reverse sides on the petals.

    I agree that it is time to start Part 7. I hope to see you all over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 7.

    MM