We are starting Part 6 here because, thanks to a lot of good participation and activity, the message thread, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 5, was getting long and unwieldy. Please feel welcome to post pictures and comments about zinnia activities here. This is a picture of a grouping of several of my cutting propagated zinnias.

Incidentally, it is my intent to keep all of the pictures posted here in Part 6 no wider than 986 pixels, for the convenience of readers whose monitors are no wider than 1024 pixels.

All of these plants were taken as cuttings from the same purple scabiosa flowered zinnia. I picked it because it had a decent amount of cutting material available and because it had the characteristic of partially exposed stigmas in the florets. You might be able to see some of those stigmas in the pictures on the left.

As you can see, all of the flowers are similar, although there are some variations. In previous parts of this series, I have noted that the stress of a cutting developing into a separate plant sometimes seems to be able to induce some rather odd variations. However, this grouping of plants doesn't seem to display any very noticeable changes.

My main motivation for developing the ability to propagate my zinnias from cuttings is to be able to produce a large number of seeds from a hybrid specimen to give me a better chance of getting specimens similar to the parent.

The more seeds you can save from a particularly good specimen, the better your chances are of getting something similar despite the tendency of seedlings from recombinants (F2s, F3s, and various hybrids between hybrids with complex ancestry) to vary wildly.

I expected my recombinants to be mostly rejects, and that is proving to be the case. As soon as you take the next step after raising your F1 hybrids, by saving seeds from them or by recrossing them with other F1 hybrids or whatever, you enter the phenomenon of genetic recombinations. I don't fully understand it myself, but recombinations tend to produce mostly rejects. However, you can get a few specimens that resemble the hybrid parents, despite their complex ancestry, and occasionally you can get an entirely new combination of genes that gives you a specimen better than either original parent or any of their ancestors.

For me, it is that rare chance of "hitting the jackpot" with something really new and good that makes the gamble of raising recombinants worth all the weird rejects. I do consider the possibility of raising zinnias from cuttings to be an important tool in our toolkit of techniques for de-hybridizing a complex hybrid into a seed-propagated strain.

Another benefit of the asexual propagation of zinnias is that it lets you propagate any sterile hybrids that you might produce. For example, if JG were to cross some of her Z. violaceas with her Z. peruvianas and if she got interesting but sterile hybrids from those crosses, she would have the option of taking cuttings from those sterile hybrids and getting more plants that way.

And, once again, the numbers game comes into play. If you have a lot of clones of a sterile hybrid, you have a better chance that one of them will "accidentally" produce a few viable seeds.

There is nothing particularly hard about raising zinnias from cuttings. I do sterilize the cuttings by dipping them in diluted Physan 20 (1½ teaspoons per gallon) to prevent any bacterial rot of the cutting. However, that step may not be necessary.

I have had success with several commercial rooting products, including Rootone, Hormex #1, Hormex #3, Hormex #8 and Dip 'n Grow (a liquid product that you dilute differently for hardwood, softwood, and soft cuttings). The powders are a little more convenient if you are starting just a few cuttings. The Dip 'n Grow is more convenient if you are starting a lot of cuttings at once. But once you dilute a batch of Dip 'n Grow, the diluted hormones are good for only about 24 hours. So Dip 'n Grow involves some waste if you are starting only a few cuttings at once.

It is necessary to keep the zinnia cuttings under lights under a humidity dome, or an equivalent, for the first week or so, until they get a few roots. I usually remove any buds on the cuttings, so they don't waste their energy trying to build a flower and roots at the same time. Just remember that, if you need to for whatever reason, you can grow zinnias from cuttings.

MM

I was not aware that there is so much variety among Persian carpets. The photo on my seed packet doesn't show nearly the variety you've shared with us here. Good luck on your inter- and intra-species crosses.

I appreciate the heads up on not letting drying seeds get too hot. I was thinking of the driest place I could find. I'm moving them indoors now.

I like your micro-garden bouquet. The very dark flowers intrigue me. The bright blooms are wildly flirtatious, but the allure of the deep colors is undeniable. They should have a seductive name.

I am having no luck at all with HPSseed.com. I don't wish to order on line. They provide no physical address nor phone number. Attempts to order a catalogue send you to Jung's and other companies. I've sent emails, but they do not reply.

Two weeks ago my zinnias were eaten by slugs. I ordered some seeds from an online company (which I have ordered before), but the seeds didn't come. I wrote them. They didn't reply.

But yesterday the seeds arrived. I think it is too late to start them in Michigan now, so for this year I will only have some Walmart zinnias.

It is amazing how much you manage to do in Maine.

(This is the 3rd time I am trying to post this. Hope it will stay this time.)

" I crossed a Persian Carpet I call "Black Belt" with a cactus I call "Snowflake." "

If that cross "takes", either way, the result can't help but be very interesting zinnias. One of my goals is to get a spider flowered Z. violacea with the dark color of your Black Belt with petal tips a nice white, like on your Snowflake. It looks like there is an off-chance that you could get that before I do. And I have a packet of Persian Carpets in my seed drawer! Lesson learned: Seed drawer zinnias can't be crossed with anything. (grin)

MM

"...how long does it take for the cuttings to root and flower and set seeds? Are they able to complete the full cycle in a year?"

The cuttings are independent plants within two weeks, and apparently they continue growing throughout the cutting rooting process, because I had to "de-bud" a couple during the rooting process.

I got a kind of late start with these cuttings, because my gardening, infra-structure building (garden extensions, forestry maintenance, etc) and plant breeding activities involve a lot of multi-tasking, but I think I could get two full cycles of cuttings in the outside garden in a season. Maybe more. I haven't really fully exploited the advantages of cuttings yet.

Even with the late start on these cuttings, I will get seeds from them outside. They are ready to pollinate now. I think the cuttings-to-saved-seed cycle is about two months. Maybe less. A cutting has a several-week head-start over a planted seed.

And, since I now grow zinnias year-round by growing some inside as well, I could take some more cuttings from these specimens this Fall before the killing Frost. So, theoretically I could keep these clones going indefinitely. (I will be ready for the thrips this Winter.) I have already taken cuttings from cutting-plants, and that works.

MM

Thanks for the information on setting up cuttings of zinnias. I am tempted to try that with several of my plants!

Those "clones" you have are beautiful. It looks like you are making a lot of progress in refining the look of zinnias, so that they appear delicate, even elegant. The color of those flowers above is so attractive.

I attempted that earlier pictured haageana-violaceae cross because the dark zinnias with light-colored tips on their petals as you had described would be really nice to achieve! But upon further consideration, I was thinking it might be more effective to get that look of flower through step-wise crosses. According to Stimart and Boyle's "Chapter 12" , it's possible that whirligigs' patterns have may have come via a species cross between violaceae and haageana plants. Maybe then, it would be better to transfer some of the desirable traits from the Persian Carpets first through a (possibly more compatible)cross with the more closely related whirligig. Then cross the hopeful, resulting F1 with a violaceae. Just a thought....

HC, I have been pleasantly surprised by the look of the wild-type zinnias. They vary so much plant to plant! Lots of pretty patterns and colors..Considering their origin, I would call them Latino Beauties, or Senoritas ;-). About HPS-- I ordered from them online back in the spring. My impression is that they are chiefly a supplier of seeds and other gardening supplies to commercial growers. It maybe that they take seed orders only certain times of the year.

Dave, good luck with your Walmart zinnias. It will be interesting see how they turn out!

JG

Not all of my recombinants are rejects. Some of them show their near-spider-flowered heritage, so I will be keeping them as breeders.

A few examples are shown here, although none of them live up to my specifications for a true "spider flowered" zinnia.

"Those "clones" you have are beautiful. It looks like you are making a lot of progress in refining the look of zinnias, so that they appear delicate, even elegant."

Those clones originated from a hybrid scabiosa x scabiosa that is basically just a scabiosa flowered zinnia. A lot of seed packet scabiosa flowered specimens are just as refined. The cutting plants have somewhat different plant habits because they started from the form of the cutting, which is usually a somewhat irregular shape cut from the "donor" plant. However, I was surprised at how well I liked the appearance of a grouping of clones. I guess that is because they all "match".

"But upon further consideration, I was thinking it might be more effective to get that look of flower through step-wise crosses. According to Stimart and Boyle's "Chapter 12" , it's possible that whirligigs' patterns have may have come via a species cross between violacea and haageana plants. Maybe then, it would be better to transfer some of the desirable traits from the Persian Carpets first through a (possibly more compatible) cross with the more closely related whirligig. Then cross the hopeful, resulting F1 with a violaceae. Just a thought.... "

That might be a good idea. (And don't forget your Z. peruvianas.) When I was a kid on the family farm, I tried a few crosses between the then Z. elegans and Persian Carpets, and apparently none of those crosses "took". But I wasn't very persistent then and I was also doing a lot of crosses between marigolds and zinnias and, of course, those weren't working either.

I have always considered the Whirligigs, Zig Zags, and Carrousels to be Z. violacea because they seem to cross just as readily with other zinnias as "other zinnias". But now that I think about it, your idea could be perfectly valid, because there are "crossability" differences between different individuals, and that has been experienced time-after-time in the history of zinnia breeding.

Since I was remiss in not planting any Persian Carpets or Aztec Sunsets this year, I will depend on using selections from Whirligigs and Zig Zags. (I also planted a packet of Carrousels, but there weren't many seeds in the packet, so I have only a couple of dozen of those.) I planted quite a few Whirligigs and Zig Zags in seedbeds "in garden" and they are fairly closely spaced, so I should have a lot of those plants to select from. Of course, I doubt very seriously that I will get any black-purple tipped white specimens in those beds, so next year I will be planting Persian Carpets and Aztec Sunsets in an attempt to get successful crosses with my Z. violaceas.

I am taking a load of rejects to the compost pile nearly every day now. Both recombinants and commercial seed packet specimens are making that trip. My compost pile is filling up, so I am constructing a new fence-wire enclosure for a second compost pile. Thank goodness this year's compost pile has been settling some as internal activity develops, or this compost pile would have been overfilled already. I am also weeding my zinnia patch and the weeds also go into the compost pile.

As I mentioned, none of my near spider flowered specimens are as narrow petaled as I would consider a "true" spider flowered zinnia to be, but I am optimistic that I will find some additional spider-like specimens in my beds of Burpeeanas and Burpee Hybrids. And by inter-crossing them and growing a lot more "spiderish" specimens next year, I hope to be able to make further progress in that direction.

Next year I hope to have a little more space for my zinnias, so I can grow more. And I may change my garden layout again to get more growing space at the expense of less path space. I am always optimistic that things will be better "next year". Apparently there is a never-ending learning curve to zinnia breeding, and I feel that I am continuing to get the benefits of new lessons learned and new tools and techniques for my toolkit.

MM

The scabious clones you have, then, are really nice ones. Each looks a little larger than the scabious zinnia that I now consider the best in my garden. The lower petals are larger than those I am finding in most of my scabious zinnias. When most of mine completely fill out with all central florets open, they almost resemble large gomphrenas!

I think that goal of getting a spider-like zinnia that is near black with white tips is a really exciting one. It will be interesting to see how you progress with that! Your cactus breeders look good--I guess you are continually selecting for thinner petals. What about the mum-like curl on the very tips--will you try for that as well?

I know you have been doing some crosses with cactus-type zinnias and scabious zinnias to get some very pretty offspring. This morning, among my plants coming up from Park "Bright Jewels" (cactus) seed, I saw the below zinnia. I've never seen anything like it! It has cactus like petals, then several rows of scabious-like florets, then a central tuft of cactus petals. Have you ever seen this sort of thing?

JG

"...I've never seen anything like it! It has cactus like petals, then several rows of scabious-like florets, then a central tuft of cactus petals. Have you ever seen this sort of thing?"
Actually, one of my breeders, which I coded as B2 (indicating the second new breeder designated this year) had a similar configuration. It was among the seedlings that I started this March.

Its female parent was A1, which was a dark rose spider flowered specimen that grew year. In my journal I described B2 as "an apparent cross with scabiosa heritage. Central petals extra curled, possibly under scabiosa floret influence." While the central petals were twisted both left and right, like several of your zinnias have been, the outer petals were more or less straight, and significantly longer.

Since this seemed to be a new flower form, and I like new flower forms, I used quite a lot of pollen from it indoors in April, and pollinated its flowers with selfs and other breeders as well.

I have had several flowers bloom in recent weeks that had B2 heritage, but so far none have repeated the unusual flower form. I am certainly hoping for a reappearance of the flower form.

Back in Part 5, BrocktheGreek linked to a picture of a zinnia he found in cyberspace that had an apparent similar flower form. See the message, Posted by brockthegreek 7a OK (My Page) on Mon, Jul 14, 08 at 23:09

Because I haven't gotten any recurrences of the flower form, I am now wondering if the flower form is genetic or developmental, possibly due to distinctly different moisture or nutrient availability during the formation of the flower. But I still think it is genetic, because the side flowers on B2 also had the curly "top knots" in their centers.

MM

I used to be very interested in stereo photography and I wondered if, in this brave new digital world, there would be a way to show stereo pictures of zinnias here in this forum. I thought of this when looking at JG's picture of her unusual "top knot" zinnia, and realized that a stereo 3D view would show it to good effect.

I have an old Stereo Realist camera that I bought back in 1954 and I took a lot of stereo slides with it, which I still have. Fortunately the dyes in the Kodachrome film have held up rather well after all these years. I have a scanner that can scan transparencies, but the camera itself has a problem with its shutter spring, so I don't think it is operational. So I can't use the Stereo Realist to take zinnia pictures, and right offhand, I don't know where I would get them processed into slides even if the camera were made operational. I could print them as "stereoptican" prints with my inkjet printer, like those old stereoscope viewers that some libraries have, but that doesn't really let you share.

There are beam splitter attachments for digital cameras that let you take stereo pairs, but they cost quite a bit for the good ones. There are digital stereo cameras made by combining two point-and-shoot cameras. Also expensive.

For still subjects, like zinnias when there is very little wind, there is a tripod attachment that lets you take a picture, shift the camera to the "other eye" position, and take another picture, thus completing the stereo pair. But they aren't cheap, either, and I couldn't figure out a quick way to make one, so I decided to become a stereo shifter myself. I would take a picture, carefully try to move the camera left about 2 inches and take another picture, hopefully getting a good stereo pair.

By trial and error, I got a few acceptable stereo pairs that way, at essentially zero cost. So I could use them as a "proof of concept" to try to display zinnia pictures in stereo here. So here goes with the first stereo pair:

There are quite a few articles on 3D stereo and this article references a technique called "free vision" in which you stare at the stereo pair and let your eyes drift apart so that the two images drift toward each other and fuse into a stereo view (with residual 2D views on either side of it.) I learned to free vision stereo many years ago, so it isn't hard for me, but it takes some practice to learn it. It is easier to start the fusion process if you have your head back at some distance from the screen and, once you get a stereo fusion, you can slowly move in toward the screen to see the picture in a more close up way. Here is a somewhat more difficult stereo pair:

Even though I can free vision these OK, I have come to the conclusion that it isn't a very satisfactory stereo viewing experience. I think I just saved myself some money on stereo photography equipment that I won't buy. I guess I'll have to wait for holographic computer monitors to become commonplace. And holographic digital cameras. Oh well.

MM

Those stereo pairs aren't a really good example of stereo closeups, because they violate a prime rule of stereo photography composition, that you shouldn't "cut off" your nearer objects with the edges of the picture. I might at some later time, when I am less "swamped" with garden tasks, try to make some "better" stereo pairs for display.

MM

The stereo photography is a good idea. Those examples you have shown aren't bad! I will try that myself, like you, when I have more time! The usual price for getting equipment to take these photos would out of the question no doubt, unless you did it all the time, but it could be interesting trying to do it with a point and shoot camera. In years past, I have spent a great deal of time looking at stereo drawings of molecules. It gives you a very good sense of where the atoms of the structures are placed with respect to each other.

Anyway, I took another shot of "Topnotch." I agree with you that it has the modified central structure that is common to the other flowers you mentioned. This is a bit more extreme, because the "pseudo-florets" around the base of the topnotch are white, then in the center are what appear to be the typical cactus petals. Anyway, I will save seeds and also hope for more flowers from the same plant. I am hoping that it may be a genetic, not somatic, mutation.

As you may have noticed, I really like red flowers. That last flower was great!

JG

I am glad you are saving seeds from "Topnotch". Those white pseudo-florets have possibilities in their own right. You have been quite lucky getting several good breeder quality specimens already.

My "main crop" will be coming into bloom in the next two or three weeks and I am hoping for at least a few good new zinnias. So far I have mostly been feeding the compost pile.

MM

I heard back from HPS today.

"Top knot" reminded me a too much of Little Iodine, so I had to alter the name a bit..but sure, "topknotch will do! ;-))))

What do you plan to order from HPS?

JG

Thanks, JG. The Walmart packet says there are 3 types of flowers and different colors, so I think they are a mixture of 3 different types of open pollinated seeds. That is not bad for me as I am not specifically looking for anything right now. Just trying different forms to see which one(s) I like.

And survived from the slug attack are 2 Giant Cactus seedlings and 2 Giant Double seedlings, so I still get to see some giants (the walmart ones are minis).

MM, I am not able to see the image. I usually can cross my eyes to see those stereo pictures, but I hadn't done any on monitor. I tried your images. I think they crossed briefly and I can see a narrow band in the middle with 2 on the sides. From the sites that you refer to, that seems normal, but I can't seem to focus on the middle one. As soon as I tried to focus, the image disappeared.

I sort of knew you must be into photography. I was too. Am thinking about picking it up again.

Thank you all for sharing your nice pictures!

"I am not able to see the image. I usually can cross my eyes to see those stereo pictures..."

Those aren't the cross-eyed stereo pairs. They are the drift-your-eyes-apart pairs viewable by the "free-vision" technique. The cross-eyed technique always gave me a headache, so I adopted the "gaze into the distance" technique because it is more relaxing. In the future I will include both styles, because apparently more people do use the cross-eyed technique. Just switching the left-hand and right-hand pictures converts a free-vision pair into a cross-eyed pair, so making both versions will be relatively easy.

The free-vision technique is the same one that is used for Magic Eye pictures. I don't know if the cross-eyed technique would work with Magic Eye pictures, but I kind of doubt it.

Sometimes the cross-eyed technique is mistakenly referred to as "free vision", probably because neither technique requires a viewer.

When I was a kid, I accidentally discovered that I could free vision the wallpaper pattern in my bedroom. The printing errors on the repetitive pattern were enough to create an interesting three-dimensional effect. Years later I learned that the same technique worked on the stereo pairs printed in my Stereo Realist book, and that it was called "free visioning".

MM

Yesterday (the last day of the month) we finally had rain for the first time in July. I was SUPER thankful for the rain and all my plants look better for it ..... except the flowers with hair nets on them. They were bent over and looked soaked. I carefully took each net off and shook away all the water and replaced them. I worry about mildew. I've read that flowers with thinner center petals (like spoonwheels) are least likely to mildew and most likely are fully doubles.

Also, I'm reading that a breeding goal for zinnias is to have narrower leaves. Broader leaves allow more water to leave the plant, which means more watering is required. Do any of you consider leaf width when choosing breeders?

I am still learning a lot with respect to what is desirable
in zinnias, although I think in many cases it is what the breeder really would like to see for himself (unless he is employed by a business which has specific goals).

But, in terms of leaf size, or even petal size, the more plant surface area that is exposed to the air, the more chances the plant has of losing water. Plants lose water through openings called stomata, which tend to close up when water supplies get low in the plant. They also depend on these openings to take in carbon dioxide that supports photosynthesis. So, when stomata are closed in hot, dry conditions, chances for growth are somewhat decreased when zinnias are in water-saving mode. Plants like cacti that have thick coverings on plant surfaces and minimal surface area are examples of how plants have adapted and are better suited to hot and dry conditions.

I've noticed in all the "wildtype" zinnias that I have, the leaves tend to be narrower than the big cactus and Benary types of zinnias. That may more or less indicate that wildtype are better adapted to a harsher climate. But, leaves are for capturing sunlight and making all the organic compounds that the plants need for growth. I would guess the larger leaves better serve the larger plants--this way they can more efficiently produce large flowers and plant parts.

Are you going to plant your zinnia seeds now? How long does your growing season last?

JG

"I carefully took each net off and shook away all the water and replaced them. I worry about mildew."

A common mis-perception about zinnias is that water causes powdery mildew. Ironically, since the mildew spores can't grow in the presence of water, spraying your zinnia plants with water could be considered as a preventative measure. However, wet zinnia leaves are susceptible to other fungal and bacteria foliage diseases and during a wet period it is a good idea to spray with something to promote foliage health. I alternate between Physan 20 and GreenCure®. The wetting agent in GreenCure is the best I have experienced.

I also use a foliar spray of mono-potassium phosphate, which supplies the nutrients potassium and phosphorus and is also preventative against powdery mildew. The active ingredient in the product Nutrol is mono-potassium phosphate. I use the chemical because it costs less.

There is evidence that silicon nutrition can confer resistance to powdery mildew. I have been using a product called Pro-TeKt (read the Pro-TeKt Sell Sheet on that page).

"Do any of you consider leaf width when choosing breeders?"

Very definitely. I prefer long, pointed leaves, partly because they look a little "classier" and partly because they produce a more "open" plant for better air circulation and more efficient solar absorption.

MM

It seems that you all are already aware of the ins and outs of leaf surface and of air circulation for leaves/petals. The point about breeding for a company is a good one and I believe what I was reading had the bedding plant industry in mind. Personally, the size, color and form of the flower are some of the major considerations. Number of blooms per plant is even more important to me. I guess I would place more importance on upright, strong stems than on leaf form.

I think I've seen a really good example of zinnia plasticity
(ability to change or adapt) today in the garden. It had been mentioned that Whirligigs might be the result between a Zinnia haageana and Zinnia violaceae cross. I wonder if they might be genetically versatile enough to be able to assume characteristics of either ancestor given the right conditions. Here are two Whirligig flowers:

These two flowers are on the SAME plant!

We have had very wet weather up until 2 weeks ago or so. This is when the lower flower was forming, then started to bloom. Notice the multiple petals and broad leaves (like modern Z. violaceae). Then, when dry weather set in, the top flower was formed and bloomed. Notice now that the petals are much reduced to a "daisy" form and the leaf on the stem immediately below is narrow (more like Z. haageana)! I hypothesize this is an adaptation to over 10 days of dry weather (as also evidenced by the cracks in the soil below).
I believe Brockthegreek may have seen something similar to this in his zinnas, but didn't mention leaf morphology.

JG

Here are a few of the flowers I have now:

..the "Zig-Zags" from Rich Farm are striped with red and have a lot of petals..

Here is a nice Parks Pick (Benary) coral-colored flower:

I got seeds for a zinnia called "Sunbow." They are small flowers a little bigger than Thumbelina with many petals. Here is a red one.

The cactuses are doing very well.

I have lots of scabious zinnias. Here is one, followed by the appearance of orange and fuschia Profusion zinnias in the "micro-garden."

JG

Your single and double Whirligig blooms on the same plant are food for thought. Perhaps those people (Parks) who said that transplanting double zinnias could make them go single weren't completely wrong.

In my opinion, your "Zig-Zags" from Rich Farm are Peppermints. I have two seedbeds of Zig-Zags from Veseys, and I expect them to look like Whirligigs.

Your Parks Pick (Benary) coral-colored zinnia is certainly a nice well-grown specimen. As you know, I don't like closely stacked petals, but that shouldn't keep you from using it as a female for a lot of hybrids. I personally would cross cactus flowered zinnias with open flower forms onto it. It looks like a stout plant with a strong stem, and those could be good characteristics in a hybrid.

I just thought of something. Crossing scabiosa types onto the Benary might be a good idea. There are so many types and colors of zinnias that the number of possible crosses is kind of mind boggling.

We've had cloudy, rainy weather the last few days and I have taken that opportunity to transplant a lot of my seedlings into the garden without the need for a "break-in period" for sunshine. (Yes, I still have some zinnias growing inside.) Hopefully the return to sunny days won't sunburn them too badly.

MM

I bet if you deliberately grew a cactus zinnia (if you have a fully-petaled-flower type), you could induce it under dry conditions to become the spider-flowered plant you've wanted! I know the below would not be your favorite example, but it is a HPS plant I am growing on our patio, in a pot. The flower is much more scant than the HPS plants in my garden. I should, but don't, water my pots on the patio very often, nor do they get more than 4 hours of indirect sunlight a day. I guess it would stand to reason that a mutant for nutrient and water uptake may produce the flower you would like! It's really hard sometimes to figure out what genes can produce what phenotypes in plants!

Sometimes I worry that I may be doing the same thing to my scabious zinnias by growing them in rather crowded conditions in the garden. Are the ones that don't have the right form being crowded and would have the right form if they had better conditions? I guess you would know the answer to this one, as you are pretty much consistently giving your plants ideal conditions and apparently still see that off-type form.

By the way, we have mentioned here the history of many of the kinds of zinnias that are being grown in the garden. I wonder what the history of the scabious zinnias are--as to origin and ancestry?

Here are several of my Z. angustifolias growing in the micro-garden. They were the very last to bloom! Talk about narrow leaves...

I know when we look at all the kinds of zinnias that there are unlimited types of crosses that could be attempted! Narrowing the choices is very hard.

As for the "Zig-Zags" from Rich, I don't know what happened! Maybe by chance they put the seeds in the wrong pack, or got seed bins mixed up, or just decided to call those by that name because they weren't aware of the others.....

JG

My guess would be that Rich Farm Garden just independently thought of the "Zig-Zag" name, and didn't "copy" it from Veseys. They probably didn't want to call them "Peppermint" because their strain was just a subset of the Peppermint Stick strain.

"I bet if you deliberately grew a cactus zinnia (if you have a fully-petaled-flower type), you could induce it under dry conditions to become the spider-flowered plant you've wanted!"

Dry conditions are quite rare here in Maine. We are basically a cool weather rain forest. And, here in the Augusta area, we aren't very far from the ocean. Sea birds are a common occurrence here. They hang out in the mall parking lots waiting for "free food". My daughter refers to the gulls as "flying rats." My wife thinks she heard a loon this morning. (Grin. Hopefully she wasn't referring to me.)

However, despite the wet weather we have been having, I have been making some progress toward more spider flowered zinnias.

But your double/single Whirligig does raise some important issues about the effect of environment on zinnias. I have been tossing dozens of "single" zinnias into the compost pile. Hopefully they weren't just "misunderstood" double zinnias.

"I wonder what the history of the scabious zinnias are--as to origin and ancestry?"

Me too. I can't recall seeing any information on that anywhere. I presume they are simply a mutation or mutations from Z. violacea, but presumptions aren't very reliable. And it would be interesting to know where and when and how they came into existence.

MM

Checking more in the garden today, I found two scabious zinnias that definitely are variable in appearance as a result of different conditions (whatever exactly those may be?).

Here are two scabious zinnia flowers blooming on the same plant:

The color is less intense and the petals fewer in the newer and smaller sister flower. It will be interesting to see if you notice this sort of thing this summer. I think in the cases I have seen here it is that the first flowers that bloom are the largest and truest to form, possibly coincidental with amount of rain received.

I found a scabious zinnia that has the larger bottom petals on the disc flowers--not quite as delicate as yours, though!

I believe the below flower is a relative of "Loopy" in final mature form.

I am noticing that the green zinnias (like Envies) quickly bleach out in the sun, becoming close to white. The zinnias in the shade are the greenest.

JG

"I found a scabious zinnia that has the larger bottom petals on the disc flowers--not quite as delicate as yours, though!"

That scabiosa flowered zinnia looks quite good, and a definite breeder-quality specimen. You expressed disappointment with your earlier scabiosa flowered zinnias as being off-type, but you have showed several pictures of good scabiosa types that would be good to cross onto and to cross with.

The picture on the left is one of my more recent "spidery" flower forms. I still have a long way to go in this direction, but I am getting some more narrow petals. Now I need to get them longer and on stronger plants with stronger flowers. I have a larger number of "spiderish" flowers to save seeds from and next year I should be able to have whole seedbeds of zinnias that had near-spider-flowered parents from which to make more stringent selections.

Today we had another mostly cloudy day with occasional sprinkles. The Sun peaked out for possibly half an hour. I sprayed a lot of my crowded seedlings with Physan 20 to help suppress foliage diseases in the shaded leaves that are near the soil.

I have some misgivings about using compost from a compost pile that contained many zinnia plants, some involving foliage diseases. But I want to develop cultural practices that can deal with disease exposure, including foliar feeding and a spraying program.

I am going to be ordering some more potassium silicate tomorrow. I intend to apply the potassium silicate in the garden and not just to my indoor plants.

Next year I will also experiment with Messenger, hopefully to confer some natural resistance. And possibly my breeding program itself can help select for more disease resistant cultivars.

MM

"Number of blooms per plant is even more important to me. I guess I would place more importance on upright, strong stems than on leaf form."

The number of flowers per plant is important. Some varieties, like the Benary's Giants, are meant to provide a "harvest" of a single large flower per plant, for the cut flower industry that supplies the florists. The Benarys aren't meant to be landscaping plants, although a lot of people use them as tall landscaping zinnias. They will provide side branches and more than one flower per plant.

Some larger flowered zinnias can produce plants that have a number of flowers, such as this hybrid specimen that has Burpeeana heritage. This is a single spreading plant. Incidentally, there are two protective nets in this picture. One is on the top flower, and one is on a flower on the left. I prefer black netting because it is less visible.

The Burpeeanas were originally bred to be landscaping zinnias that formed hedges of many large flowers. Also, I have found that some of my hybrids involving the scabiosa flowered zinnias had nice plants with dozens of flowers. Next year, you might want to experiment with both Burpeeana flowered zinnias (both those from Burpee and those from Stokes) and scabiosa flowered zinnias. Some of my best, sturdiest plants have been scabiosa flowered zinnias, or F1 hybrids with them as a parent.

MM

What pretty Burpeeanas! And, the spider flower has very thin petals. I look forward to seeing your "crop" when it comes in!

Below is my favorite zinnia coming from commercial seed this year. I have shown a photo of a sister flower earlier this season. I really like the color. Possibly I can get it to produce seeds for bigger flowers through crossing--I hope. I am definitely going to try to "clone" it through cuttings.

JG

I forgot to ask. What is "Messenger"?

JG

The principle pollinators for my zinnia patch are sweat bees and I have discovered that they have discovered how to pass right through my hair nets. I don't think using a double thickness is the solution because of the extra weight.

I've already purchased Burpeeana seed. One pack is from the US and the other from France, but both are Burpee trademark. I have scabiosa already emerging from the soil as a result of you guys informing me of T&M. I just need to say thanks for your contributions to my education. I don't know how to say that without it sounding comical, but I really do appreciate everyone's contribution. If I could have found a forum like this 15 years ago when I was raising 'Zeniths', my head would be entirely swollen by now.

"What is Messenger?"

Eden Bioscience makes Messenger. Their Messenger product description is rather brief. For example, they omit to say that Eden Bioscience's proprietary harpin protein technology was discovered at Cornell University. The Messenger Use Instructions advise not to waste any diluted product, but to find some plant that can "use" it. I bought a package of Messenger at our local garden supplies store, but somehow never got around to using any of it. I had intended to treat my indoor zinnia seedlings. Maybe I will do that yet, as I still have some growing indoors that I am grooming for a Fall crop.

MM

I meant to mention that you have visible stigmas in that red scabiosa flowered specimen, just begging for some pollen. The "sister flower" that you showed back in Part 5, Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sat, Jul 12, 08 at 21:55 also had a visible stigma. Some scabiosa flowered specimens are "open" like that, and don't require any special pollination techniques.

MM

Those red flowers, I know, are begging for pollen, and the way they are configured, that won't be too difficult! The only thing that is bad is that they can't be selfed. That is why I know I will have to try and start some cuttings of them.

That Messenger product sounds interesting. Plants have ways of fighting pathogens--this is a new one to me!

HC, that's a shame your plant got broken. I know how you feel. My dog was chasing a raccoon through my zinnia patch yesterday, and some of my plants got trampled. Hopefully, you will still have some good seeds from the remaining flowers! You mentioned that the covers for your plants were not keeping some of the insects out. It's often crossed my mind that the feet of old pantyhose might do the trick. I wonder if the aeration woud be good enough though? I bet MM has already thought of this--I wonder if he has tried it? MM?

JG

You seem to be getting more than 5% true to form on your scabiosas.

"I have a volunteer that came up through the grass, withstood duck nibbling and has given me 13 blooms all of which are more than 12 inches above the ground. While the flowers are nothing special, I felt its other traits qualified it as a breeder. Wanting to use it mostly as a maternal parent, I have used a different pollen donor for each flower. I've been quite pleased with myself and very hopeful. I came home from church yesterday to find the plant mangled. No one comes onto my fenced property, but it looks like someone played basketball on top of the poor thing."

That is quite a mystery as to what happened to your breeder zinnia plant. If you still have the pieces, you might want to cut off the flowers and use the rest of the pieces as attempts at cuttings. You could take the flowers apart, looking for green seeds. Is it possible that the ducks could have done the damage?

My zinnia patch doesn't have the protection of a fence. The apparent fence on the west side is just a wire trellis that also serves to keep people from falling over the makeshift retaining wall that forms the terrace structure of the garden.

As a consequence of no fence, my garden, like JG's, is vulnerable to damage from dogs and a variety of other animals, including deer, wild turkeys, possible bobcats, feral cats, and groundhogs. We are in a semi-rural wooded area, so we have quite a lot of wildlife. Several animals have caused damage in my zinnia patch, including a large female snapping turtle, which we captured in a large red plastic basket and returned to its home in a nearby pond. We were careful with it, because it could have easily snapped off a finger. The appearance of a lot of baby snappers some time later confirmed that the momma had buried eggs in my garden. We also returned the babies to the pond.

I used to grow tomatoes and I made tomato cages for them from concrete reinforcement mesh. The mesh is made of a very heavy grade of wire and comes in 50-foot rolls 5-feet high. Re-mesh is also available in flat sheets for people who don't need much of it. The wires are spot-welded to form 6-inch squares. I cut off the bottom wire to form 6-inch prongs that can be pushed into the ground to "anchor" the cage. Since the cages were about 30-inches in diameter, those 6-inch legs kept the cages upright despite some fairly high winds and tomato vines spilling out over the tops of the cages.

Last year I "re-purposed" some of the tomato cages into zinnia cages, by cutting each 5-foot cage into two 2½-foot cages. I also partially re-wound some of them to decrease their diameter, when needed. The cages did a credible job of protecting several of my breeders that were in exposed locations from dogs running through as well as an assortment of wildlife and high winds. A couple of nights ago a dead limb fell out of the big oak tree on the north end of the garden into a seedbed of Veseys Zig-Zags, and narrowly missed killing several young zinnias. I carefully removed the debris (the limb was so rotten that it broke into several pieces on impact.)

As you can see from the photo I shot this evening, I have started deploying the zinnia cages again this year. I plan to use a dozen or so of them. Maybe more. I have quite a few of the big tomato cages that I could convert to zinnia cages.

I don't know if a cage structure would protect your zinnias, but you might want to give it some thought. If you do figure out what damaged your breeder zinnia, we would be curious to know.

MM

Like JG, I am waiting on your crop to come in. Some seedlings from my new patch are starting to have their first pair of leaves.

So the mystery continues as to what damaged your breeder. Eventually it will probably be solved, because whatever did it may return at a time when you are home.

On the subject of sweat bees, bee pollination, and protective covers, I did think of using panty hose because I, too, had made panty hose slings for watermelons on the trellis and on several of the 5-foot "towers" that also served as tomato cages. I rejected the pantyhose for the zinnias because the hose was not black and seemed unnecessarily "tight". I had seen two or three species of small bees in the zinnias, as well as a bee-like moth and a couple of kinds of flies that were mimicking bees. It didn't seem to me that they were gathering a significant volume of pollen and I didn't and don't consider them to be a problem. My zinnia patch also has quite a few butterflies, just sipping nectar, as far as I know. Both the butterflies and the hummingbirds can sip nectar through the black mesh that I use to exclude honeybees, carpenter bees, and bumblebees, all of which are very numerous and greedy in gathering large amounts of pollen.

Before I started using the protective nets, I had to beat the bees to my pollen sources, or they would leave me with very little. Since I have started using the nets on my pollen sources, the problem of bees robbing my pollen is pretty much solved. I leave my nets open at the bottom, for convenient removal to obtain pollen or access to the flower's stigmas, and that doesn't seem to be a problem. The bees just go on to an unprotected flower, rather than try to defeat the nets.

I concede that sweat bees do take a little pollen, and that they could do a little pollination. But in my zinnias, they aren't worth the bother of using finer net material. Rather than go to a very constrictive net design, you might want to re-evaluate how much of a problem the sweat bees actually are. If you conclude that they are a problem in your environment, then your net design will be a challenge, particularly if you want to minimize how much inconvenience the nets will be to you as you go about cross-pollinating and self-pollinating your breeders.

But check your fabric stores. Ours had several grades of netting, and I got a sample of some much closer spaced black netting that I tried, but didn't like as well as what I am using. It would have prevented sweat bees from going through it, although my "open-bottomed" net design wouldn't prevent sweat bees, or any kind of bees for that matter, from entering through the open bottom.

I don't know how small your sweat bees are. Do you think they could get through black nylon/fiberglass window screening? I recently made some screens, and that stuff handles well and scissors easily cut it. I considered window screening for zinnia protectors, but went with the black fabric netting that I now use because it was much less expensive (I got it at Wal-Mart), and was also very much more lightweight. I wanted something that was as "open" as possible, to get good exposure to light and air circulation, hopefully to avoid any tendency to promote disease.

MM

Blueangel

But the translator doesn't do Estonian, so I couldn't get anything useful out of it.

MM

"I may have solved the mystery..."

I think you have solved the mystery. The cats jumping at butterflies could have caused the damage. We don't have a cat (several of us have cat allergies) so the only cats around here are an occasional neighbor's cat, some feral cats, and the occasional bobcat. There have been unconfirmed reports of a mountain lion in the area, but I sincerely hope that isn't the case. Someone about 20 miles from here did take a picture of what appeared to be a mountain lion, partly concealed in the bushes in their backyard, and the somewhat blurry picture appeared in our paper.

But your experience has reminded me that I need to deploy some more cages in my zinnia patch. Dogs, wild turkeys, and deer are an ongoing hazard here. But seed-eating birds are probably a more real threat, so I need to put nets on my seedheads before they start to mature.

MM

I think there probably are some European seed sources that could help improve our gene pools. A few years ago, a discount store in South Portland (The Christmas Tree Shop) had some Unwins seed racks, and I got a few seeds then. I will look for mail order sources of European zinnias that are readily available to us. I want to avoid Customs problems importing seed into the US.

MM

When I clicked on the Estonian site from the link pls8xx gave us, it was already in English. If yours doesn't come up already in English, click on the British flag. I did have to change the currency to dollars. The English is funny. When I clicked on "twisted plants" it gave me vines.
I still hope you'll share the European sources you find. I'm wondering if I order these seed from Estonia if they'll be marked as packaged in my hometown.

"When I clicked on the Estonian site from the link pls8xx gave us, it was already in English."

Yes, it came up for me in English, too. But when you click on a zinnia, for example the Burpeeana, you get a page with very little English, like this:

I tried highlighting some of the foreign language text, opening the Translator, and pasting the foreign source into the translator. Then the name of the game is to guess what language to choose for the Translator. Estonian is not an option. I tried maybe half a dozen different guesses and clicked Translate and the translated text did not differ from the pasted text. Then I chose the Russian language flag, and the only thing that changed was that what was in English was now in Russian, but the main body of the text (the stuff I copied and pasted) was the same as before (presumably Estonian). I don't plan to give that Estonian site my credit card number.

MM

I'm not sure I want to order from these folks. They don't seem to have experience with US customers, and communication could be a problem. I'm with mainman, no credit card numbers. But the prices look good and sending a $20 bill would not be a great loss.

The one good thing from looking at this has been knowledge gained in importing seeds. There is now a program for small lots of seeds. The permit is free and looks doable for an individual. The link below gives some background in how it works with a link to the permit website. This ol' Arkansas redneck may soon be getting seed from the far corners of the globe. Amazing.

MM, you looked into the Estonian site further than I. Here's a semi-solution. The second half of the description is in Russian. It is in the Cyrillic alphabet. I copied and pasted that into the square and chose Russian as the originator language. I could read most of it, but it doesn't make much sense. One that I "read" about planting location for pumpkins said "kids pasted against the wall".

The idea of sending a $20 and seeing if anything comes of it is tempting.

Here is a picture, taken yesterday on a cloudy rainy day, of one of my recombinant spider flowered zinnias.

It enjoys the protection of a zinnia cage, and a green Velcro tape ID marker on the cage.

MM

On this forum, is it okay to refer to a blog that is at another web address? There is a flower I would like to refer everyone to.

"Thanks for sharing. I'm glad your "crop" is coming in. It looks like it will be a bicolor."

Actually, I don't expect that one to be a bicolor. I think it is a little slow to develop basal color because we have had so much cloudy weather lately. (It rained again this afternoon.) I think its tendency to have white on the newer petals may have come from relation to the rose-based-white specimen that I showed back in Part 4, Posted by maineman z5a ME (My Page) on Wed, May 7, 08 at 4:44 But this one looks different. I do have a few bicolors showing up in, of all places, my Burpeeanas imported from Tanzania by Stokes. I'll show a few samples in a subsequent message. I also have bicolors just beginning in my Whirligig and Zig-Zag patches.

"On this forum, is it okay to refer to a blog that is at another web address? There is a flower I would like to refer everyone to."

It is OK to insert hyperlinks to blogs. Inserting pictures inline from someone else might be questionable. GardenWeb used to frown on hyperlinks to competitive forums, like Dave's Garden.

You could insert a hyperlink to a blog by typing:

<a href="http://journals.aol.com/patoco2/zany-for-zinnias/" target="_blank">zany-for-zinnias</a>

in which case, you would get:

Zany for Zinnias

MM

That Whirligig looks like some kind of mutant, alright. If I got something like that, I probably would treat it as a breeder and cross it with a bunch of stuff, just to see what would happen. Thanks for the link. So far this year, all of my Whirligigs are pretty tame compared to that. Although I have three or four that I like, and will treat as breeders. And lots more haven't bloomed yet. The "plain vanilla" ones are going to the compost pile. Several dozen went today, and that was pretty much as planned.

MM

Yesterday we returned from a very hot, but good, time in Oklahoma. I was able to see several gardens, but only saw zinnias near an apartment complex where Profusions were used in the landscaping.

MM, your spider zinnia is pretty and seems to be very much the type of flower you are trying to create. More and more, I am very much aware of how difficult it is to make a cross, then get the desired effect!

Upon arriving, I found the goldfinches had made heavy inroads on my patches as they feasted on the seeds of unprotected flowers. I spent several hours today harvesting seeds for my general mixed garden next year. I also was able to get seeds from some of my crossed plants, although I was a little disappointed in the number I got. There will be a lot of pressure on those few to give me some plants!

HC, pls8xx, and blueangel--I agree that it will be fun to get zinnias from lots of places abroad to add to the gene pool, given these are reliable sources! Not surprisingly, it seems most of the seeds we get from companies here in the US are actually grown overseas. I got seeds for a red zinnia called "Gift," originating from Moscow, and sold by Seed Savers Exchange in Iowa. I hope it will do something special for my gene pool, but it does look quite ordinary with lots of disc flowers.

My whirligigs in general are colorful, but not unusual:

The patch of Benaries I have is a nice cutting garden, and the "microgarden" is not so "micro" anymore!

I found a "Siamese-twin" flower today. I think often an injury will cause a plant to do strange things. Also, among the Rich Farm Zig-zags, I found a flower, not striped, but a coral flower whose petals turn pink with age.

I look forward when I can show offspring of my crossed zinnias! (It will be a while...)

JG

I like everything about the yellow pink flower from Rich Farm. The petal shape/form is nice and the lower petals look picoteed. It should be sitting atop an ice cream cone.

Your microgarden looks spendid!! Those Peruvians are tall. Where did you purchase seed? Finding the swizzles is like looking for Waldo. What intentional crosses have you made with the micros?

I have found a source for two zinnias that are new to me. Both are offered by www.stokeseeds.com. One is a 'Zahara' series. They are Z. marylandica, but with a higher percentage of doubles. The other is 'Solcito' which is a Z. maritima.

Welcome back from Oklahoma. I was born in Enid and raised on a farm in northwest Oklahoma, and went to OU in Norman. It gets very hot in Oklahoma, with triple digits not being unusual. And, while it has been hot in Oklahoma, it has been quite mild here in Maine. The temps have been in the mid 70's for the days and in the mid 50's at nights.

The finches have been a problem here, too. I've got to make and deploy some more nets. Your "Zig Zag" has an unusual button flower form combined with some twist and folding of the petals. Possibly some Cactus heritage there.

This recombinant zinnia is another of my "spidery" examples. This one has rather curved petals, fairly close to the old Fantasy strain that is apparently now extinct. I liked the Fantasy's for their unusual "fantastic" flower form. At least two of them received AAS All America Selections awards. It really annoys me that so many good strains of zinnias have "gone extinct".

Well, back to the garden for me. Lots to do there.

MM

HC, my source of the Peruvian zinnias was Select Seeds--Antique Flowers in Union, CT. I also got yellow Peruvian zinnias, and I had a few when they first started blooming, but have seen no more for a while now. I don't think I have seen the Z. maritima before--will have to check those out!

MM, I can see why you have all the experience with zinnias--they were probably just about the only flowers in the garden that could withstand the dryness and heat in OK! I know I am thankful they are so hardy when the summers here in IN get extreme. I like the angles in the petals of your cactus flowers. I have that trait in a more modified form in several of the cactus flowers I got from HPS:

I saw a neat design on the ground below my picnic table while harvesting seeds, and will share below:

BG, I think all of us may have slightly different ways to get the seeds from zinnias. You no doubt get the most seeds when you allow the flowerhead to totally dry on the plant,
then remove the seeds at the base of the petals. If you have seed-eating birds in your garden, they will eat up the seeds as they mature! Then you can protect the flower head by covering with a netted cover, as described by MM in earlier posts. The only thing is, is that then your flower, if it is still developing, must be hand-pollinated to get the most seeds back. Or, you can harvest seeds early while they are still relatively "green," then dry inside on a newspaper or paper towel. If you do that, the most mature seeds will be at the base of the flower.

JG

Wow! You have several specimens with good curving on the petals. I guess I will have to send HPS an order next year.

We had some sun here today, but rain is scheduled for tomorrow and the next day. With all this wet weather, foliage diseases are becoming a problem and I am spraying. So far I have just used some Physan 20, occasionally combined with soluble foliar feeding nutrients. But I think I will branch out on the spraying and use some GreenCure and mono-potassium phosphate.

You are right about our Oklahoma experience. Zinnias were one of the few flowers that did well. Our roses faltered and died. Our lilac and spirea did well, and so did our trumpet vine. Morning glories and moon vines were good, but we watered most of our garden and landscaping subjects. About the only thing that would grow without some watering was wild sunflowers and ironweed.

MM

HC, I have only made one cross so far with a "micro." And, that is the one I mentioned earlier between a white-tipped dark burgundy Persian Carpet and a white cactus. I harvested about ten good seeds from that cross today--I wonder if they resulted from the cross I attempted? We'll see! I really didn't expect any seeds because I was pretty sure the cross would be incompatible, so I can't help thinking that maybe there was pollination via the wind! Nonetheless, I have put nets over two buds that have yet to bloom--of an orange cactus and a red Peruvian for a cross between those two plants. I can not imagine what offspring of such a cross would look like!

I looked at the Z. maritima--it could be interesting to try and cross it--but it looks so much like a black-eyed Susan!--I don't know!! Are you going to get it? What sort of cross would you make?

MM, you are extremely knowledgable about all the chemicals to use with plants. Your plants look pretty good,too. Mine are getting kind of dried looking with the lack of rain, and are getting some holes from the Japanese beetles. I am going to try and take my red scabious and July Bonnet zinnias through the winter as cuttings, and will go to the hormone products for that. Do you treat the cuttings to the same high intensity indoor light as the other plants when they are producing new roots? In terms of chemicals other than hormones, I won't be so adverse to using insecticides indoors to prevent any insect damage.

Here are a Persian Carpet that looks a lot like a strawflower and several Chippendales that I saw today:

JG

"Do you treat the cuttings to the same high intensity indoor light as the other plants when they are producing new roots? In terms of chemicals other than hormones, I won't be so adverse to using insecticides indoors to prevent any insect damage."

I start the cuttings in the same medium that I use to start my seeds indoors (Premier ProMix BX, to which I add some extra Perlite for better aeration of the mix). I water the cutting pots with a special dilute solution with a complete mix of macro and micro nutrients and Physan 20, because, unlike seeds, the cuttings have an appetite for nutrients. I use urea-free soluble nutrients because urea can't be converted to usable nitrate or ammonium ions in the absence of soil microbes. I'll detail the starting solution in a subsequent message.

My plant stands have 2-foot x 4-foot shelves, with four 2-bulb 48-inch T8 fixtures over each shelf. The T8 commercial shoplight fixtures cost about $8 each at Home Depot. For cuttings and seed starting, I don't use overdriven fixtures. I recommend cool white bulbs. I used to use the 4100°K Philips cool white T8's in boxes of 10 for $19.95 at Home Depot, but now I prefer to spend a bit more and get 6500°K bulbs. They look subjectively much brighter.

I tried using 2½" square pots for the cuttings (the same pots that I use for single seeds), but they proved to be much too small. I rooted some cuttings in pots made from the bottoms of 2-liter soft drink bottles, and I will repeat that, because those pots are transparent and you can see the root development as the roots reach the sides of the pots. They are about 4¼" in diameter and I cut them about 4" high for cuttings. But commercial 3½" or 4" square pots would probably work just fine. As the cuttings grow into zinnia plants, you will need to repot them.

I am experimenting right now on insecticides to deal with thrips indoors. I have a few plants inside right now that have thrips and they are a welcome test subject this time. I will use an imidacloprid containing systemic insecticide, but I haven't determined which product and which dilution will be most appropriate. I will keep you posted on that. You probably won't have a thrips problem for the first few weeks, anyway.

Until your cuttings strike roots, it will be necessary to keep them under humidity domes. Tall 7-inch domes (or a jury-rigged equivalent) are adequate, unless you have some extra tall cuttings. The cuttings usually have enough roots so that you can remove the domes in 10 to 14 days.

I'll give more details in a subsequent message. As it happens, I am planning to start a few more cuttings this weekend, myself.

MM

Thanks so much for the information on rooting cuttings. This is a helpful addition to your earlier posted information (in the first message of this thread) about the hormones you have used to promote rooting.

I will wait a week or two, then start some cuttings from the two plants I want to propagate. This will be a trial run. I want to catch these plants while they are still more or less in their prime. It seems as the season goes on, the zinnias tend to get brown patches, from drying and insects, wind, rain damage, etc.

JG

JG, good luck with that white x ruby cross! I think any flower you get should bring some interest. I had thought of crossing the Z. maritima with a Z. peruviana. That's why I asked for your source.

Your 'Persian Carpet' doesn't even look like a zinnia, but I like the subtlety. I like the one 'Chippendale', especially its wide petals, and the little clownish one too. Did one of your photos disappear after the petal collection photo?

I want to grow 'Aztec Sun'. Does anyone know if it is a polyploid like 'Old Mexico'?

I think 'Old Mexico' is just a diploid (2n = 24) and is a member of Z. haageana. Maybe by 'Aztec Sun,' you mean Aztec Sunset. I am pretty sure it, too, is a diploid Z. haageana. I think several examples of Zinnia polyploids would be the Z. marylandica, an allotetraploid (combination of two different genomes in this case) represented by the 'Profusion' and related series (2n = 4X = 46) and some of the autotetraploids like 'State Fair' (2n = 4X = 48).

I have to look these things up to keep them straight, and usually it is before I consider a cross!

It would be interesting to see what you might get with a Z. maritima x Z. peruviana cross. The unpredictability makes it fun.

Do you think your indoor seedlings are getting tall for lack of light? Do you use fluorescent fixtures to provide light? I know that plants can often get tall and weak because they aren't getting enough light. If you get a chance, refer back to past threads of "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias." MM has provided a lot of information on sources of light! I found earlier this year that indoor gardening is fun but presents many challenges. MM gets very intense light that plants like zinnias really thrive upon, by making his fixtures "overdriven," and he gives info in one of these past threads. I found that I could easily start fairly strong seedlings using pairs of 48" regular fluorescent tubes several inches above the tops of the plants. Then I experimented with Sylvania Gro-Lux and GE Plant and Aquarium fluorescent tubes, and really didn't see a big difference. As the plants get larger, then the more intense light helps them thrive. I didn't grow mature plants for long, so didn't get into the overdriven light.

JG

I have had more chances to post today because it has been all gardening and I like short breaks in between weeding, etc. Anyway, my "July Bonnet" zinnia has produced two more flowers with another on its way-- the second, fortunately, having some disc flowers that shed pollen so that I can self both flowers. Here are some views of the larger flower:

I know it is not exactly an aesthetically pleasing flower, but I like the fact that it is different!

Also, just to try rooting cuttings, I tried some of MM's techniques (at least, partially). There was a branch on my July Bonnet plant where I had removed a flower, so I dipped the stem in Rootone (which also contained fungicide) and placed it in a soil mixture with fertilizers which a local nursery sells as "Metro Mix," and which had been moistened with water. There were two sets of leaves and I removed the lower set (the area of the "node") and both the bottom of the stem and the node were dusted in Rootone then placed it in a hole I made in the soil mix. I thought MM's idea of a transarent bottle was good, so that you can see the developing roots. So, I got an old plastic apple juice bottle and used that as my container. I used the cut off top of the bottle as the humidity dome. There are some places where the parts of the bottle come together where some air can get through. I am going to place the bottle in an area outside where it is always shady so that the stem doesn't get stressed out. Later, I found a small branch coming off the same plant that had a growing tip at the end, so I put that in as well. I will let everyone know how this works out!

JG

I hope you have success with your July Bonnet zinnia cutting. It would be great if July Bonnet could be the start of a whole strain of "Bonnet" zinnias in a complete color range. That may be a lot to hope for, but zinnia breeding is based pretty much on hope and optimism and anticipation.

I noticed that this Part 6 message thread had now gone to a scrollbar format, and I think the cause is that some of your pictures posted on Wed, Aug 13, 08 at 0:28 got inadvertently placed side-by-side instead of stacked vertically. The individual pictures were modestly sized at 640x480 pixels, but the side-by-side placement made each pair of pictures act like one 1280x480 pixel picture.

You can't change the side-by-side arrangement now, because our messages can't be edited, at least, not by us. If you want to take the trouble to re-crop and/or resize your 640x480 pics in that group enough to make the pairs total no more than 986 pixels wide, then delete those six in Photobucket, and then re-upload the cropped/resized pics to Photobucket, using the same original filenames, our scrollbar here should go away. The side-by-side pictures are

Zinnias001-1.jpg Zinnias002-2.jpg
Zinnias006-1.jpg Zinnias007-1.jpg
Zinnias0091.jpg Zinnias008-1.jpg

Or, if you are too busy right now, leave them as is. I probably should start a new part to this series, anyway, just to keep the load time for new viewers within reason. Since we "regulars" read this thread fairly regularly, our load times are fairly quick, since our browsers simply re-use pictures from the Temporary Internet Files folder in the Windows folder (for Microsoft Windows users).

If there is some air circulation into and out of your cutting bottle environment, make sure the growing medium doesn't dry out. Ideally, it should be a nearly sealed environment for the first two weeks. Until the cutting sprouts roots, it can very easily lose water through the leaves faster than it can get water through the cut end of the stem.

MM

MM pointed out that my side-by-side photos force a lot of us to have to scroll our screens to see everything. I apologize for that! I quickly entered photographs without double-checking the size. So all who have had to do this because of those August 13 pictures, please dump your temporary internet files, as I have deleted those large pictures from Photobucket, and your screen should no longer require scrolling. For those of you who are new, no worry--here are the zinnias that I had shown on that day:

The Whirligigs:

Then, a plot of Benary zinnias, followed by a plot of mixed species zinnias:

Finally, a Rich Farm Zig-zag zinnia that didn't show stripes but a mix of pastel colors, followed by a zinnia that was injured and produced a near-double flower:

I found on Photobucket I couldn't just edit the initial photos because of the format in which they had been originally entered.

MM, thanks for your help with the cuttings! I did go ahead and tape up the cracks where the top and bottom of the bottle come together to make sure the plants keep sufficient moisture. I followed the Rootone directions, dusting the stem of the cutting from the very bottom cut area to the area that would end up 1/4" above the soil line, and I am encouraged by the sight of a tiny root that has appeared above the soil.

I am beginning to believe in pollination by wind as increasingly I notice that I am harvesting what seem to be fully developed seeds from plants that have no disc flowers whatsoever. I know that some insects are attracted by the nectar of the flowers. I'm not sure where that is located, but I watch butterflies as they travel about, and usually they are attracted to central parts of flowers where there are disc florets. As MM mentioned before, it may be that accidental visits by insects to flowers with no disc florets help pollinate them.

JG

JG, are you watering your cutting from below or is the clay pot just to keep the plastic bottle balanced? I like everything about your 'July Bonnet' cultivar and along with MM, wish you the best with cuttings and with seed from selfing. You can't look at that flower and not smile.

I have some good news. Last week brought the first bloom from my second zinnia patch. I had already planted zinnias in the spring before knowing about this forum. After starting to read the forum, I had to plant another patch. While some of the plants seem to still be in their infancy ('Red Spider' and 'Magellan'), this product of selfing a 'Canary Bird' went from seed to bloom in 37 days. That in itself qualifies it as a keeper. The plant is well branched and the bloom is an airy lemon yellow instead of canary.
Considering that I hand cultivate and have used no fertilizer, I am amazed by my original patch. I stand 5'9" and presently I have eight blooms that are taller than me. I'm sure that none of the parent plants from last year were over five feet. Most of the tallest ones I am crossing with other tall ones or with 'Swizzles'.

About germination-- some seeds like zinnia can germinate in light or in dark, in part because they have energy stored in the seed that supports the tiny embryo in its growth and emergence from the seed coat, given it has adequate water and temperature. But that's all that germination is. Once the plant is exposed to the light when the shoot and root emerge, germination is essentially over. Now the characteristics of the particular plant species come into play as to how much light it requires to thrive and grow. After germination, the zinnia is one of those plants that does well in a lot of light. So, once the plant has emerged from the seed with or without light, then it must support its own growth through photosynthesis, dependent on light. Without enough light, plants respond by growing tall and lanky--a response that may enable them to reach a spot where there is more light that then allows them to survive. That's wordy, sorry!

With the cuttings I am trying to start, I am watering the soil from beneath. I also thought that with holes in the bottom of the bottle, I would have better drainage. Starting those cuttings was kind of an impulsive thing I did mainly because some of the parts of "Bonnet" were becoming less and less exposed to the sun and losing color. I thought at that point I might try a last-ditch effort to save those parts. MM, what do you think about watering that way? Should I be keeping a totally closed system?

Wow, HC, you were lucky to get those flowers in such a short time! I bet you can easily get two generations in one season where you are. It will be interesting to see how your Swizzle -tall zinnia crosses turn out! Hope you can share pictures one day of your offspring! The yellow-flowered plant must be pretty.

My taller zinnias are also very tall--shoulder-height when I am about 5'7". I have at least one plant that has gotten up to about 6'!

Here is a small zinnia (coming from my "Sunbow" seeds) that has pretty angular petals, making it almost starlike.

JG

We'd like to see more photos...;-)..

JG

Well, here are some photos of recent Whirligigs, Zig Zags, and Carrousels that have bloomed for me. Nothing really unusual in this group, but I am pollinating them with spider-flowered pollen with the hope of getting spider flowered bicolors. I am pulling or cutting out about 95% of my bicolors as they bloom, based on dingy colors, not being bicolor, being single, etc. There are many ways a bicolor can go "wrong".

JG, I see that you produced nicely down-sized versions of your previously larger 640x480 pictures, the new smaller versions being:

Zinnias001.jpg Zinnias002-1.jpg
Zinnias006.jpg Zinnias007.jpg
Zinnias008.jpg Zinnias0091.jpg

I didn't mean to suggest that you edit the pictures in Photobucket. Just delete them, as you did. Then upload the new smaller pictures but, this is key, use the exact same original filenames. You could do that by copying those new, smaller pictures to a separate folder on your computer, and rename them in that folder to the original larger 640x480 names:

Zinnias001-1.jpg Zinnias002-2.jpg
Zinnias006-1.jpg Zinnias007-1.jpg
Zinnias0091.jpg Zinnias008-1.jpg

Then you could re-upload those smaller pictures from that new folder to the original Photobucket album and they would automatically restore the original links, but to your new smaller pictures. That is what I was trying to suggest in my last message on on Mon, Aug 18, 08 at 2:42.

But no matter, the scrollbar is now gone from this thread, and I didn't even have to do anything to my Temporary Internet Files. I just hit my F5 key, which does a "Refresh". Thank you very much, JG, for fixing the problem, by whatever method.

I made and installed several new nets today, because the bumblebees and their friends seem to be much more numerous for some reason. I was even getting some pollen from under a net and a bumblebee flew right up and tried to help himself to some of my "protected" pollen. He startled me, and I reflexively flipped him. He buzzed around excitedly, but didn't sting me. Actually, I can't recall having been stung by a bumblebee, and I have flipped them on more than one occasion. But I wouldn't try that with a hornet.

We are just coming out of a multi-week rainy wet period, and I have a lot of foliage disease as a result, and I have been spraying with Physan 20 the last couple of days. This evening I did a foliar feed of trace elements. I have used a lot of sand in my garden expansion to extend my amount of soil and, as a result, my soil is rather low in available nutrients. Maybe next year I will buy a load of topsoil and spread it.

I have also been combining Physan 20 with other soluble nutrients in my sprays. The trick is to pre-dilute the solutions before mixing them. That also works with combining soluble nutrients. For example, calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate can precipitate out some calcium sulfate (gypsum) is you just toss them into a bucket and squirt in some water. But if you pre-dilute them in separate buckets, you can combine the dilute solutions with no significant problem.

You can also combine calcium nitrate and complete nutrient formulas like Miracle-Gro or Better-Gro by the same pre-dilution scheme. If you just add calcium nitrate pellets to a Miracle-Gro solution, the locally concentrated calcium ions can form an insoluble calcium phosphate precipitate with the phosphate ions in the Miracle-Gro. Pre-dilution solves that problem. Before I learned about pre-dilution, I used to feed my seedlings with a separate calcium nitrate solution, to avoid precipitation.

Now I keep separate prediluted "stock" solutions of magnesium sulfate, calcium nitrate, and trace elements to combine when needed with commercial soluble nutrient formulas. The first year that I grew big seedlings indoors under lights, I encountered serious calcium deficiency symptoms before I realized that none of my commercial nutrient formulas contained any calcium. And calcium is the fourth most used nutrient. Hydroponics growers use a lot of calcium nitrate.

MM

I'm in awe of all of this!

Cameron

You are most welcome here. Please feel free to make comments, ask questions, or whatever. Compared to Maine, you have a much milder climate in North Carolina than we do. If you have access to any zinnia seed now, you could still "get in the game" by planting a Fall crop of zinnias now and, when they bloom, keep only your favorite(s) to save seeds from for use next Spring. That would give you a big head start for next year. And you never know when you will get something very interesting out of a commercial seed packet.

You can do quite a lot by just selecting the best specimens to save seed from. That is actually better than what the commercial seed growers do. If they do anything at all, their people just "rogue" the seed fields, by chopping out some of the worst specimens.

For example, I planted some White Burpeeanas from Stokes this year, and they were all white, but apparently that was the only requirement their seed growers imposed. Years ago, they probably started with a relatively pure strain of White Burpeeanas (in the "good old days" Burpee offered the Burpeeanas in separate colors). But, over the years, under field grown conditions, the strain has "run out" into a mix of flower forms and plant habits. I was looking for a "white spider flowered" specimen, and so far I haven't found it. Next year I will try again, with a bigger planting of "White Burpeeanas", as well as mixed Burpeeanas from Burpee.

By saving your own seeds, you can do quite a lot. You can develop strains of separate colors from mixed varieties. And, by picking your favorites from among the natural variations that occur, you can get zinnias that appeal to your tastes. Bees will do some random hybridization for you, and it isn't hard to learn to do your own cross pollinations.

But you are welcome here, whether you raise zinnias or not.

MM

"The top two photos of the bicolors attract me most."

I like them too, because there is a kind of "powdery" interface between the colors. They are both Zig Zags. That color transition is fairly common in the Zig Zags. Here is another such specimen:

"I'm wondering which kind of bicolor would best work with spider petals."

I have always thought that it would look really neat to have a very dark black-purple spider flower with bright white tips at the ends of the petals. Under low light, all that you would see would be the tips. But any spider flowers with dark or bright colors and contrasting light-colored tips would be good. I would like to create a strain like that. I would name it something like "Fireworks" except that I think that name has already been used for a zinnia. Maybe "Starburst". I guess it is a little too early to be thinking of a name. There is always that little detail of creating the strain first.

MM

In an earlier message you asked,

"Also, I'm reading that a breeding goal for zinnias is to have narrower leaves. Broader leaves allow more water to leave the plant, which means more watering is required. Do any of you consider leaf width when choosing breeders?"

And I answered that I prefer long, pointed leaves, partly because they look a little "classier" and partly because they produce a more "open" plant for better air circulation and more efficient solar absorption.

I forgot to mention that there are other properties that I prefer, and one of them is frilly or waved edges on the leaves. This picture shows an example of what I am referring to. It was taken "today", actually technically yesterday, but it still feels like today to me.

Occasionally you will see these waved edges on zinnia leaves, sometimes much more waved than in this example. I like the effect, and I have designated this zinnia as a "breeder" mainly because of the leaf style.

MM

"I'm hoping that JG will choose her angular-petaled 'Sunbow' as a breeder too."

Me too. I think I will try some Sunbow seeds next year to see if can get some of those pointed petals. They are fairly common in Persian Carpets, but I haven't seen that petal form in Z. violacea before. I see that Johnny's Seeds carries Sunbow zinnia seed. I guess the name is a take-off on the word "rainbow".

I have seen a petal shape mutant from time to time that makes part of the petal a closed tube. Sometimes the whole petal, except for a bugle-like opening at the end, is enclosed. This is a picture of an example that I took yesterday:

These petals enclose the stigmas, which would seem to make them inaccessible to pollination. I guess I will split some of these petals and apply pollen from a similar mutant. However, I have serious doubts about creating a strain with these petals, because of the difficulty in pollinating them. But sometimes I am not seriously working toward a strain, but just "fooling around" with my zinnias. If the bees can do it, so can I.

MM

"'Old Mexico', an autotetraploid Z. haageana cultivar, was released in 1962. All autotetraploid zinnia cultivars released to date are open-pollinated. Relative to diploids, tetraploid zinnias have larger flowers and thicker, stronger stems but also have poorer seed germination, less branching, delayed flowering, and fewer capitula. Difficulties also occur with producing autotetraploid lines with a uniform phenotype due to additional alleles affecting ligule color and plant habit."

This makes it sound to me that I could grow 'Old Mexico' and not worry about it cross pollinating with other cultivars.

Thanks for the correction, HC. I knew 'Old Mexico' was a
member of species haageana, but hadn't gone further in the article to see that it was an exception in that group for chromosome number.

MM, I like unusual flowers and that white example with the tubular petals is really interesting. Could that plant possibly have a scabiosa ancestor? Just wondering....I like the wavy leaves in the one yellow-flowered plant you have, too. I don't think that I've seen that waviness uniformly shown in a plant in more than one pair of leaves.

OK, I just had to suggest this as a name for MM's dream zinnia--the dark colored spider flower with light tips....how about "Black Widow"? (I hope he neither gets mad nor even....) Anyway, joking aside, that would be an extremely desirable flower to create!

The Sunbow flower I have was easy to pick out among all of the rest of the Sunbows because of its unusual petals. I didn't get it from a commercial source but from a member listed in the 2008 Flower and Herb Exchange Yearbook (http://www.seedsavers.org/prodinfo.asp?number=FHE)--don't know if it could be a cross with something else as he offered other types of zinnias as well, listing 'State Fair' and a zinnia he called "Mexican," which he wrote he collected in a small village in Mexico. Anyway, I am going to try and cross it with one of the Persian Carpet plants as some of them also have a similar petal form, and who knows? maybe my plant already has Persian Carpet sap
in its stem! ;-).....

JG

MM, I'll be glad to work with some tubular zinnias if you choose not to. White or gold is such a perfect color for them.

Thank you so much for your kind welcome. I've not yet grown zinnias as we built this house in 2005 and I've been busy getting the "bones" built and getting the perennials established.

I also have the challenge of deer and rabbits outside my cottage garden fence. Some friends of mine protect their seedlings with a rabbit fence, then are okay when the zinnias get tall. I'm going with tall varieties.

However, I have already ordered some zinnia seeds (Envy, Purple Prince, Lilac Emperor, Dream in Lavender-Rose) from Swallowtail Garden Seeds and Diane's Seeds.

I didn't realize that I could still sow some for this year. Where can I learn more?

Thanks so very much!
Cameron

Welcome to you, Cameron! If you start with "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias Part 1" you will learn a lot at this site, as well as pick up on some good references in the literature. And, MM, in particular, is extremely knowledgable about zinnias with (at least) several years of experience in breeding and growing them.

HC, "Boutonniere" is a good name. If I'm so lucky to even get a second generation of the same thing, I would be happy!
If any of the flowers bear pollen, I definitely will self.
I cast a net over that flower when I found it.

MM, there's one thing I don't think any one of us has mentioned on this thread that would be really desirable in zinnias....FRAGRANCE!! I've just been out in my garden and noticed that some of the newest yellow Benary flowers have just the faintest of a sweet fragrance. Several of my newer pink cactus flowers did, too. And I do mean faint, but not imaginary. Has anyone else noticed that any of your zinnias have a fragrance? That could be something else to breed for! And, this could be another flower-specific attractant for the insects and hummingbirds. Another science fair thought--sit out in the garden over a period of time and see what creatures go to what flowers by type, then categorize the differences. I wish I were that age again! ;-))

JG

Yes, some zinnias do have a little fragrance. I have sniffed them from time to time. We have been overlooking that. I guess we should be sniffing our zinnia blooms regularly to see what they have. The neighbors may think we are daft. But, if there are some fragrances hidden away in our zinnia's DNA spirals, recombinations from F2s and such could be a likely way to coax them out. I still think zinnias are full of surprises, just waiting for the right set of circumstances to bring them out.

MM

"I'll be glad to work with some tubular zinnias if you choose not to. White or gold is such a perfect color for them."

A cooperative breeding effort might be a good idea. First I would want to get enough breeder seed of tubulars to share, and verify that they wouldn't be a waste of your time.

I had two tubulars appear in my Burpee Hybrids last year. I thought I would be able to recognize them as they went to seed, because the tubes were so different than the other petals. But I was wrong. A lot of the dried split tubes simply fell off of the seedheads, leaving seeds in the heads. I should have labeled them. I knew the area where they appeared (by a coincidence they were only a few feet from each other) and I just saved seeds from all the zinnias in that area. However, I did not plant those seeds this year. Probably will next year.

The tubulars aren't that unusual. If you have a couple of thousand zinnia plants, you probably have one or two right now. I have two that I know of, and I am pretty sure there is a third (an orange one). I still have quite a few plants that haven't bloomed yet, so another one isn't impossible.

I'll try to take pictures of the other two tomorrow. I plan to intercross them and see if the progeny have tubes or not. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the progeny don't have tubes. But that remains to be seen.

When I first heard about this zinnia mutation, it was referred to as "bugle flowered". Here is a link to a blurry picture, showing a zinnia plant with several completely tubular flowered blooms. I was unable to get seed from "davefan". I suspect his plant didn't yield any viable seed, because the stigmas were totally buried in the tubes of the "bugle petals".

I have yet to see one like that in my zinnia patch. Since you are interested, I will keep you informed of my progress in this area. A cooperative breeding effort could be mutually beneficial.

Today I placed some pollen from a scarlet tubular specimen onto the white one pictured. I didn't split any tubes yet, but several stigmas were at least partially exposed. So far, the scarlet tubular was the only one to produce pollen, and it produced only a single floret today. I will be on the alert for any additional tubular petaled zinnias that might appear in my patch. I am also considering taking cuttings this Fall to carry them over during the Winter. However, so far I don't know if any additional blooms that might appear on those plants will be tubular or not.

MM

That white tubular zinnia looks like a miniature composite calla lily! I think you should definitely attempt to get more like it!

JG

My boxes storing saved seed neatly filed in sandwich bags with index cards is making me realize I'm, God willing, going to be doing a lot of digging/preparing through the winter months.

I was surprised recently when JG said she only got ten seeds from a bloom. I always have scads. Yesterday I collected seed from a super double, tall purple that had never produced any disk florets. I had kept it covered with a hairnet during the time I was daily cross pollinating, but later stole its net. I knew there was the chance that bees could further pollinate. :( I only got nine seed from this huge bloom and now I'm wondering if my efforts (or the bees') were successful.

"(I never see mistakes on this site, so I try not to insert any.)"

I am never sure whether a word is misspelt or not, so I routinely use ieSpell. It is a useful free plug-in for Internet Explorer, if that is your browser, and it will let you add words to its dictionary if you are sure that the word in question is correctly spelled, according to your wishes. Incidentally, I did add "misspelt" to my ieSpell dictionary, because ieSpell flagged it. I did not add mispelt, which I have been known to use on occasions out of perversity. Maybe I should have just said "misspelled". You invoke ieSpell by pressing the right-hand mouse button while your "focus" is in the text that you are editing and, in the pop-up menu, highlight and click on "Check Spelling".

Here is a picture of the scarlet tubular that I took today.

I have netted the tubulars to protect their pollen. I think they have possibilities as a strain, which could then be progressively improved by inter-crossing and re-selection.

MM

Usually I get lots of seeds, too, but the time when I harvested only ten seeds from a white cactus flower was when it was crossed with a Persian Carpet. I honestly didn't expect any seeds at all since I was crossing different species and collecting seeds from the very first attempt, so we'll see.

MM, keep your tubulars going! I hope those unusual petals are a hereditary thing. You could get some interesting flowers in such a line.

JG

Back on Aug 14, 08 at 23:15, I posted a picture of a Persian Carpet I thought looked a lot like a strawflower. Here is a flower from another PC plant:

These two bi-colored flowers are similar in that they have petal tips that are of a darker color than the rest of the flower, in contrast to other bi-colored flowers. This might be something to breed for, so I think I will try and cross this flower with a white cactus flower that I have growing nearby. A light or white-colored flower with orange or red petal tips would be different.

Here is a Persian Carpet flower that has serrated, rather than smooth-edged petals:

And, here is a fluffy flower (a little weather and insect damaged):

JC

JG

I like the "teeth" on your Persian Carpet and I can't recall having seen that effect on a Persian Carpet. So that is unusual, I believe. As you know, I like "toothy" petals. The dark tipped Persian Carpets do seem unusual enough just to select them for possible selfing or crossing with other dark-tipped Persian Carpets or Aztec Sunsets.

I don't recall having seen a pink Persian Carpet. Have you had any pink Persian Carpets? Or any pure white ones? A person could make quite a project out of just selecting separate colors out of the Persian Carpets.

I also haven't seen a zinnia like your "fluffy flower". Never mind the weather and insect damage. We enjoy seeing what your zinnias look like whether they are pristine or not. Our five-week plus rainy period gave me some serious foliage problems, and I have been spraying a lot in an attempt to keep the problems under as much control as I can. I also still get cosmetic damage from Japanese Beetles, although their numbers have been declining lately. The blister beetles were a problem (they love to eat pollen florets), but I haven't seen one for over a week now.

With regard to the photo on the left, I am very pleased that not only do the leaves have wavy edges, but the texture of the petals is rather frilly as well. I hope this specimen puts out some pollen, because the first thing I will do is self it.

"I like unusual flowers and that white example with the tubular petals is really interesting. Could that plant possibly have a scabiosa ancestor? Just wondering..."

You know, when you first mentioned that, I didn't think it was very likely. However, today I have been opening up several of the tubular petals to expose the stigmas and pollinate them and I discovered something that I didn't expect at all. In with the stigmas on some of the tubular petals, there seemed to be some vestigial anthers, which are rather common in the scabiosa flowered florets. You may be on to something. I think I will put some pollen from scabiosa flowered zinnias on the tubulars and vice versa. And, of course, I will continue selfing the tubulars and inter-crossing them with each other. I am encouraged that three of the tubulars have produced pollen. So far the orange tubular hasn't put out any pollen, but I hope it does.

At this moment, I can't imagine what a cross between a tubular specimen and a scabiosa specimen will look like. The question in my mind is whether the scabiosa guard petals will be tubular, or whether the scabiosa florets will be tubular (they already are, kind of), or whether tubular petals will show up in all parts of the scabiosa flowered bloom, or maybe nowhere.

However, if tubularity behaves as a recessive, I will still grow the F2s in an attempt to coax the tubular phenotype back out into some interesting recombinations.

I took some pictures of the tubulars before I started opening up the tubes to expose the stigmas. Good thing I did, because with all of the tubular petal surgery, they are starting to look pretty ragged.

So far none of the tubulars is 100% tubular. The red tubular has only about 40% tubular petals. But I am still including it in my breeding program. I think more fully tubular blooms will come in good time.

MM

When I saw the pink Persian, I wondered the same thing. I didn't know they came in pink.

I've checked to see if I have any wavy-leafed plants and I don't, but I sure like them. I've also gone about trying to know if any of my zinnias have fragrance. So far, no luck. I attempted to sniff a 'Swizzle', but decided I'd wait until an emergency crew was available to upright me. If anyone does decide to breed for fragrance, do so on plants that are tall enough to access.

MM, I tried to send you an email, but I have no idea if it was successful as the computer signed me off completely after I touched "send".

I sympathize with you about not wanting to bend over to sniff low zinnias. I have a few low zinnias myself, but don't like bending over to pollinate them. I have had lower back trouble, on and off, and I try to avoid any unnecessary strains on my back, or I have a sore back for days. I use Aleve® on a regular basis. If I do cross low zinnias with anything, it will be with something taller.

"I tried to send you an email, but I have no idea if it was successful as the computer signed me off completely after I touched "send"."

I did get your email just fine, but I prefer not to get pictures by email because my email mailbox is rather small and it doesn't take many pictures to fill it up and then incoming email "bounces". You can join Photobucket for free, upload your pictures there, and link to them here as JG and I do. Photobucket lets you organize your pictures in "Albums" and I take advantage of that convenience. I have an Album named "986wides" for my 986-pixel-wide pics that I post here. You can pick any username you want, as long as someone else doesn't already have it.

Here is a picture of my rose-red tubular.

Less than half of its petals are tubular, but I am still using it as a "breeder". As JG mentioned, we still don't know if this tubular characteristic is even genetic or not. If I get any kind of tubular strain started, then I will know that it is genetic and that by more intercrossing, selfing, and re-selection I can improve the strain. And, as new tubular specimens show up in my other zinnias, I can also incorporate them. Keep an eye out on your zinnia patch, in case any tubulars show up.

MM

MM, the yellow flower is definitely one you want to keep! The leaves are an interesting addition. It has "substance." And of course, the tubular flowers are one more item. You're getting some nice results from your breeding efforts!!

Earlier I had mentioned and shown a zinnia with variegated leaves. Flowers formed on that plant, but wherever a white streak in the stem continued into the flower, no petals were formed. Not a good mutation. I threw the plant away.

This plant pictured below is the closest I got to blue this year. I took the picture when the flower was just opening; it the end it turned out to be a quite large cactus flower. I saved the seeds. I will try and select for bluer offspring.

I looked in vain for a tubular flower. No luck! Anyway, I guess the closest I could get is this Benary flower that, unlike the rest, has rolled-up petals.

I have some Persian Carpet flowers that are kind of a pink-purple with white-tipped petals as I showed in my last post.
I don't think that is a true pink, just a purple that is lighter with maybe some pink tints at best.

JG

The yellow waved/frilly zinnia still hasn't put out any pollen. Much to my disappointment, several of its stigmas seemed to have been fertilized. Tomorrow I will net it, because it seems that curious bumblebees have partially pollinated it despite the absence of pollen.

Here is a picture of the orange tubular, before I surgically disfigured it. Incidentally, once again, I found some small pollen anthers, and a hint that at least one of them had successfully selfed itself inside the tube. That could be good news for the survival of the tubulars in a field-grown environment.

So far it hasn't put out any pollen, but the other three have and I have been using their pollen on this one. The scarlet tubular has put out quite a bit of pollen and I have also used it on three of my scabiosa flowered breeders.

Today I was just looking at one of my Burpee Hybrids that looks very much like your pale bluish lavender bloom. I hope it will put out some pollen, because I would like to self it. I didn't plant any of my bluish lavender scabiosa echinacea flowered specimens this year. I wish my garden were much larger in area. I still doubt that we will get a pale blue that stays blue in the sun, but who knows? Zinnias are full of surprises. Your rolled-up petal Benary is a case in point.

MM

Once again I want to thank you for all I am learning here. I had never used PhotoBucket because I understood that I would need a digital camera, and then I had been told by our librarian that I could not bring the card from a camera here to use on the computer because "that is how viruses destroy everything that our county has tried to provide". Let's see what I've learned without destroying anything:

I wanted to share this photo because we had talked about bicolors that had the darker color to the outside. I didn't notice this flower when it was younger, so it could have been solid. Now that it is maturing, the pigment seems to be pushed to the edges.

I like JG's Benary because the underside contrasts so nicely with the petal color.

"I had never used PhotoBucket because I understood that I would need a digital camera, and then I had been told by our librarian that I could not bring the card from a camera here to use on the computer because "that is how viruses destroy everything that our county has tried to provide". Let's see what I've learned without destroying anything:"

Apparently your phone takes some very small pictures. The picture you have linked to is only 160 x 120 pixels. That is not very big.

I experimented with increasing your picture size some but, as you can see, the result is rather blurry. There isn't a lot of image detail in a 160 x 120 pixel picture. Does your phone have an option to take larger pictures?

I'm not criticizing your phone pictures. Please, do continue to share them. But since you are a gardener who appreciates flowers, in my opinion you would enjoy an entry level digital camera. And, when you get your own computer, you would enjoy an entry level picture editor, like Adobe Photoshop Elements. In the meantime, your phone and the library computer seem like an excellent enhancement to your ability to communicate about your zinnias.

Your flower does seem to have become a bicolor, or was a bicolor to start with. The effect looks good. Actually, with that petal shape and the light color at the base of the petals, your zinnia kind of reminds me of a rose. Do you happen to know what variety of zinnia it is?

I have to wonder why your librarian thinks your phone pictures might somehow transmit a virus to the library computer. I don't know anything about computer viruses, but I never heard of one starting in a phone picture. But our digital world does have its marvels, so maybe it would be possible, somehow.

MM

A nice digital camera is at the top of my list for when I find a job. After seven years on a job, I was replaced by a younger illegal alien. A new wave of them have displaced way too many locals here. I'd say 20% of locals are without work here and our roads, stores and offices are clogged with illegals with their hands out and their pockets already full. Anywhere you go looking for work, the personnel offices are staffed by Hispanics, so go figure.

I sympathize with your unemployment situation. Somehow I didn't associate Georgia with this problem, partly because of no common border with Mexico. That situation in the personnel offices has a bizarre science fiction flavor. Well, here's to better times.

MM

It took forever for this thread to come up this morning (about 21 minutes). It's never taken more than 3 minutes before. Tomorrow all may go smoothly, but I'm wondering if it's time for Part 7?
I know that the wonders of zinnias are just beginning to reveal themselves and that we are going to have much more to learn/share. Hopefully, Dave, Cameron, pls8xx, BlueAngel and others will move over with us.

"I'm noticing that each of the tubulars has had a petal underside color that complements nicely the color of the bloom."

At best the backside of a zinnia petal is a dull green-veined version of the front side. The tubulars, particularly the white one, have been lucky to have reasonably good looking backsides, but even they could have better looking reverse sides. Some zinnia petals are up-rolled, and show a lot of backside. In my opinion, a major improvement in zinnias would be to have better backside color. It could be the same color as the front side, or a different color, but it needs to be a nice clear color, and not just veined. Back in Part 4 I showed a picture of a purple scabiosa type with white on the reverse that I liked. But I am still looking for a mutant or recombinant with really good looking reverse sides on the petals.

I agree that it is time to start Part 7. I hope to see you all over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 7.

MM