Greetings all,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this ongoing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 15, is becoming rather long and slow to load, so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. As always, you are encouraged to post your pictures, but as a courtesy to readers with smaller monitors, try to keep the pictures posted no wider than 986 pixels.

This picture is 986 pixels wide, and it shows a recent snapshot in my patch of Whirligig and Zig Zag zinnias.

These zinnias have mostly two or three colors on each petal, which gives them an interesting look. Whirligigs are an interesting strain to grow, because they have so much variety. I will save seeds from a few selected favorites, and cross them with other zinnias as well. I enjoy growing zinnias of all kinds.

I look forward to your participation in this message thread, to ask questions, answer questions, post pictures, or just make any kind of comment.

ZM

Your garden patch of Whirligigs looks very nice--how well-groomed it is, too! Those flowers are so bright--love the Whirligigs!

I think very soon, the majority of my zinnias here will be in bloom. It's amazing how quickly the flowers come out in July!

Your tissue culture, I know from past experience with other types of plants, can be extremely challenging! But I have a feeling you will master it in time. Meanwhile, you have an excellent system of propagating through cuttings which will suffice when you find a plant you want to keep.

Below is another Whirlygig. I like the contrasting colors. I wonder how a cross of this with a scabious zinnia (say, a white one) would work? Could you get a very dark group of central florets with the yellow rays? Or, would every petal (regardless of being in the center or on the outside) reflect the same pattern of light and dark colors? (That would be assuming offspring would inherit the scabious form along with the Whirligig colors). I'm guessing the latter might happen.

Here is a flower with downturned petals:

This flower shows a pretty design as it opens (it is an X-Roll F-2):

JG

"I wonder how a cross of this with a scabious zinnia (say, a white one) would work? Could you get a very dark group of central florets with the yellow rays? Or, would every petal (regardless of being in the center or on the outside) reflect the same pattern of light and dark colors?"

It can go several ways. The florets can take one color and the guard petals can take the other color, or the guard petals can be bi-colored. And sometimes the florets are bi-colored. I guess my favorite is when the florets are one color and the guard petals are a different color, like in this case.

You can click on that picture for a larger picture in a separate Window, and then you can close that Window.

I have made a number of crosses between Whirligigs and Scabiosa Flowered zinnias, and the results are frequently interesting.

ZM

The scabious flower you've shown is nice. The form and color are pretty! Have you seen as much contrast as in the Whirligig I showed here earlier? I've seen very dark centers where the chaffy scales there were a very dark purple while the rest of the flower was considerably lighter. But, I've not seen very dark florets along with very light guard petals here.

I've noticed that a smaller percentage of the plants here has only one leaf on the stem directly below the flower while the majority has a pair of leaves there.

Here is an unusual color on a scabious flower that I saw this morning, kind of a brownish mauve:

And, here is a cute flower with toothy but chubby petals, an F3 hybrid from July Bonnet:

Happy 4th of July!

JG

JG,

"Have you seen as much contrast as in the Whirligig I showed here earlier? I've seen very dark centers where the chaffy scales there were a very dark purple while the rest of the flower was considerably lighter. But, I've not seen very dark florets along with very light guard petals here. "

I haven't seen that much contrast. This one has florets approximately the same as the base guard petal color.

I have seen several with about that much contrast, but none as contrasty as your yellow-scarlet-plum Whirligig. A high contrast scabious flower would be a good thing to look for.

I have never seen that unusual zinnia color before. And that "chubby toothy" is a keeper.

Happy 4th of July!

ZM

I like the effect of the scabious hybrid with the Whirligig color pattern. I'm pretty sure I've never had one of those here--funny, because I usually have some of both parent varieties. Maybe I'll hand- pollinate and see if I might get a successful cross this year!

I am tearing apart last year's compost pile--the leaf mold on the top layers will be used as mulch and the real compost below will help amend the soil. We have a loamy clay here that can be improved for some plants. The zinnias seem to like things just as they are, though.

I found two flowers today that have a bluish cast to their purple colors. First is a Burpeeana, having tubular petals:

and the second is a Whirligig, having some stripes in its petals:

JG

Here are a few more flowers that are currently in bloom:

This scabious flower is a little worn, but is pretty.

The orange cactus is interesting because the chaffy scales are visible near the center of the flower.

A droopy cactus with petals of different colors:

JG

JG,

Your tubular Burpeanna has a marvelous bluish lavender color, and it is tubular as well. If you choose to hand pollinate it, you may have to split some of the tubes to get at the stigmas. However, when I was doing that with some of my tubulars, I discovered to my surprise that there were anthers in some of the tubes with the stigmas. There was a possibility that the tubular stigmas could be self-pollinated after all.

Your striped Whirligig is quite pretty. The stripes of the Peppermint Sticks and Candy Canes look kind of freaky to me, suggestive of the Tulip virus, but those stripes have a nice artistic look. It looks like a keeper and a breeder to me.

Despite your past disappointments with scabious strains, you are getting some good scabiosa flowered specimens. That pink one is nice. Lots of breeding possibilities there. Just saving seeds from the good ones would make good progress and give you a seed stock hopefully superior to the commercial strains.

I am getting some decent examples of loosely flowered "aster flowered" specimens, like this one.

That one has some subtle color variation from a Whirligig grandparent. I am attempting to address the download slowness problem by applying a higher degree of JPEG compression. My goal is to drop from my approximate 350K file size to 100K for the same picture size. The picture above attempts to obey that criterion. I have become more aware of download times because my Internet connection is via HughesNet, which is a satellite uplink/downlink system, and it is considerably slower than cable and DSL connections. It is faster than dialup over regular phone lines, but, of course, dialup is really slow.

I have been busy culling my Zig Zags and Whirligigs. Both have high cull rates, and I am sending them to the landfill rather than to a compost pile. My zinnia compost in Maine gave me lots of zinnia disease problems. More later. We did get some much needed rain.

ZM

I was wondering when you were going to show some of your fancier flowers. That yellow-pink-salmon one you just posted is beautiful! How do you plan to use that in your breeding program?

You're right about saving seeds from the scabious phenotype-zinnias. The F1 of the 2009 Park Candy Mix continue to give me some pretty flowers.

Below is an instance probably resulting from one of the 2009 flowers crossing with a Whirligig (first one I've noticed). It's a bigger flower, probably over 3" across.

JG

Here are a few of the X-Roll progeny:

One of them has more relaxed petals.

JG

JG,

You obviously have some good scabious specimens, including some hybrids. And the news on the X-roll progeny just gets better and better. You've got a whole bunch of good breeders, and we haven't seen them all yet.

"How do you plan to use that in your breeding program? "

I'll probably self it and cross it with some other multi-colored aster flowered specimens. I would prefer that these large bicolor types have a more contrasty two-color look, but it is apparent that quite a bit of recombination will be required to get that.

This recent specimen looks like it was a progeny of last year's "Medusa" specimen, although I would have to check my records to confirm that.

I'm not too wild about it, but it does have a different look, and it apparently has Whirligig ancestry. I'll use it as a breeder with the idea that recombination will produce something better. More later. Our temps are back in the hundreds again.

ZM

Off I go to read parts 1-15.

Magz88,

"Off I go to read parts 1-15."

Well, we may not see you again for a while. There are several years worth of messages in these "It can be fun" message threads. And tons of pictures.

JG, Magz88, and everyone,

Those Zig Zag zinnias that I am growing have a very high cull rate and are basically the end of the line for that zinnia strain. However, it does have some oddballs, and this one specimen alone kind of "makes it all worthwhile" for me.

I know it is kind of an ugly duckling, but I think it has the potential for creating yet another new flowerform in zinnias. This isn't just a single bloom mutation, because so far every bloom on the plant has "followed suit".

Several years ago, a participant over on Dave's Garden (sorry I can't link there -- the management here strictly prohibits that) showed a blurry picture of a zinnia like this, and referred to it as "bugle flowered", because the individual petals resembled little bugles.

That participant seemed willing to send me some seeds, but then sort of "faded away". Perhaps the plant didn't yield any seeds or the participant changed his mind about giving them away to a stranger. Either way, I understand.

I thought that someday I might find one in my zinnia patch, and yesterday I did -- in the Zig Zags. Obviously I gave it breeder status and today crossed it with several likely mates. I hope I can get this Bugle Flowered zinnia deeply embedded in my zinnia gene pool. As such, it is not impressive, but I think that those bugle-shaped petals have possibilities if they could be much larger. I'm excited about this.

ZM

That new flower you show is bizarre! I love it..and I am so glad that all the flowers thus far on the plant are similar. What is inside the "bugles"? Stigmas alone?
I guess you'll probably self some of those flowers, too. Even if you get some non-bugles in the F1, I would go ahead and cross those in the hopes of seeing the characteristic show up again in the F2. Cool!

Right now I have nothing so unusual, but here are a few I noticed:
One of the few progeny I got coming from the seeds of toothy-petalled flowers...it's very bright.

A flower with wide petals:

A cactus type with drooping petals:

This scabious flower never developed any guard petals:

JG

JG,

That scabious without guard petals should not be disparaged and is worth watching. My objective of developing scabious blooms with "huge" florets would be enhanced if there were no guard petals. I have had an occasional Candy Mixed that didn't seem to have guard petals, but they were the type that had partially accessible stigmas in the florets and semi-open florets that I sometimes refer to as "petaloids".

I like your wide petaled specimen. That would be worthy of becoming a strain in a complete line of colors. Even wider petals would be nice.

"What is inside the "bugles"? Stigmas alone?"

Good question. I will split a few bugles tomorrow to see what, if anything, is inside. If stigmas, I will pollinate them. Some of the "Tubulars" had anthers along with stigmas inside the tubular petals. This is another of the Bugle Flowered flowers.

Fortunately these flowers are producing pollen. I kind of hope they keep that up. This is yet another of the Bugle Flowered blooms.

The Bugles seem to be producing an encouraging amount of pollen. Worst case, the pollen-bearing florets could produce floret seeds. More later. It was killer hot today, and predicted hotter for tomorrow.

ZM

I looked and looked through my garden in vain, as I searched for a bugle flower. No luck ;-(...I bet you'll be making cuttings and growing lots of those plants all winter long! It will be interesting to see what you get from your seeds. I wouldn't be surprised if you get bugle flowers from your floret seeds as they likely will be selfed.

It is very hot here and dry, too. We haven't had a good rain for several weeks now. And the Japanese beetles are thriving! So my gardens are stressed out. Today I found a flower with unusual disk flowers. They were fused in clusters. Below is what it looked like-- depth of field was not good.

This was a pretty cactus:

JG

JG,

I have seen some florets somewhat like that, but not nearly as extensive as yours. Incidentally, that is an impressive macro photograph. I would save seeds from that, just to see if the trait is genetic. If it is genetic, it could make some interesting crosses with scabiosa flowered zinnias. Those monster florets might create some interesting scabious florets.

If possible, I will be growing the bugles or their offspring this Winter. I crossed them with some more of my breeder zinnias today. I put pollen from some of my larger recombinants on their stigmas, which I exposed by slitting the bugle petals with a small X-Acto blade.

The bugle petals all contain stigmas, but apparently no anthers. The stigmas are acting kind of sterile, because all exposed stigmas are still yellow and apparently receptive despite heavy pollen applications. The pollen from the Bugles is apparently viable, since several stigmas that I applied it to have shriveled.

"I looked and looked through my garden in vain, as I searched for a bugle flower."

I also looked through my garden today, looking for a second Bugle flower. Didn't find one. But I have a second planting of Zig Zags entering the budding state, so the possibility of a second bugle remains alive, if somewhat remote.

I'm not spending all of my time on the Bugle. This Whirligig recombinant has a refined flower form that I like.

I like the long straight refined look of its petals. I will give it breeder status. I have had a few zinnias with similar flower forms.

"It is very hot here and dry, too. We haven't had a good rain for several weeks now."

Same here. More rain, please.

I have been watering my zinnias off and on for more than a week. More later. How did you take that macro picture of that oddball disk floret?

ZM

I can see that whirligig has the narrow petals you like. The shades of lavender/pink in the petals are nice, too. I have seen very few like that in my garden.

My zinnia patches are getting drier than I've seen for a long time. The combination of constant sun, and light winds with the very high temperatures are challenging even the zinnias this time. I have to water sparingly with watering cans, and I know that won't be enough. We have to be careful as our water comes from a well.

Here are a few flowers I saw today:

I used a Canon Macro lens (100 mm) to get the closeup shot of the disc flowers I showed earlier. Because I was holding the camera rather than using a tripod I had to use a fairly high speed with a larger aperture..the combination of those things didn't give the greatest photo.

JG

JG,

"I used a Canon Macro lens (100 mm) to get the closeup shot of the disc flowers I showed earlier. "

That is a very capable lens. Your picture of the floret was almost like looking through a microscope. I still hope to get a digital SLR and a macro lens when our budget permits. I might be able to simulate a closeup like that, using our Kodak point-and-shoot, by extreme cropping and image upsampling. I'll have to give that a try sometime.

I am crossing the Bugle specimen with a variety of larger specimens, like this one, because its biggest deficiency is its small size.

The Bugle blooms are in the 1-inch to 1.5-inch size range. Its plant is also semi-dwarf. So it needs a lot of size upgrade to be a useful ornamental plant. It's going to be interesting to see if I get any results from it.

Those last blooms that you showed are interesting. Number 3 has an interesting petal formation, and it must have a good mix of ancestry. You have succeeded at getting the bees to do a lot of cross-pollination for you.

My zinnias are getting a lot of hummingbird activity. I have no idea whether hummingbirds do any cross-pollination, but I kind of doubt it. Their disturbance of the flowers may cause some selfing. I have a hummingbird feeder that also gets a lot of hummingbird activity. Hummingbirds don't seem to hurt the zinnias, but other birds that use them as perches occasionally break a zinnia stem.

We, too, are watering from a well, so we don't have unlimited water resources. It is actually possible to run the well dry, but it recovers in a few hours. It's going to be a challenge getting my zinnias and tomatoes through this hot and dry spell. I am impressed at how well the nearby soybean and corn fields are doing so far. If I hadn't been watering my zinnias, they would all be dead long before now. More later. Maybe I should do some sort of rain dance.

ZM

I hope you can get a good cross with your Bugle flowers. That last cactus flower you showed would give the Bugles a nice color. I hope you can introduce some size to them ,too!

You were mentioning how some of the Bugle stigmas weren't shriveling when you pollinated them. I wonder if there isn't reduced fertility of the pollen with all of the heat? I know quite a few plants have less viable pollen with significant heat, including corn and peppers.

I should also outcross my zinnia line (the Extreme Rolls). There is little variation of color among them, but the form is hardly uniform yet as seen today:

A number of July Bonnet descendants show curly petals in the middle:

I have a few plants with cream-colored flowers and pink edges:

JG

JG,

"That last cactus flower you showed would give the Bugles a nice color. I hope you can introduce some size to them ,too!"

I have also been crossing the Bugle with some of my scabiosa recombinants, like this one.

It has fairly large flowers and several rows of guard petals, as well as a full scabious center. It will have roughly half and half floret seeds and petal seeds, although I have only been pollinating the petal stigmas so far. I have no idea how the Bugle genes will play into its flower form.

"You were mentioning how some of the Bugle stigmas weren't shriveling when you pollinated them. I wonder if there isn't reduced fertility of the pollen with all of the heat?"

I hadn't thought of that, but it is possible that this heat is affecting pollen viability and stigma receptivity. However, the stigmas have shriveled on several of the flowers that I have applied the Bugle pollen to. For the last couple of days I haven't been pollinating the Bugle, but I have been using all of its pollen on several chosen females. I think I am getting some seed set from that, although that remains to be seen.

"I should also outcross my zinnia line (the Extreme Rolls)."

You should, by all means. And you could inter-cross some of them as well. Like, put some of that pollen from that first flower onto the second. You have really got something there in that Extreme Roll gene. And you have had some other variants worth breeding with, also.

I thought for sure that if I grew a bunch of Whirligigs that I would get some Extreme Rolls myself, but that simply didn't happen. I will be making a big planting of Whirligigs again next year, but only to find choice breeding specimens, and with no expectation of the Extreme Roll phenotype appearing. I think you are right that Extreme Roll is a combination of "X factors".

I am not putting all of my eggs in the Bugle Basket, and I am inter-crossing some of my better scabious types and aster flowered types. And I am still waiting to see if anything worthwhile appears in my successive plantings that are budding out now. More later. It hit 101 in Ottawa today and 101 is predicted for tomorrow.

ZM

Your scabiosa recombinant is really unusual in that it has several layers of guard petals. Can't you just imagine what a flower would look like with several rows of guard petals and then those Bugle formations in the center? I look forward to seeing how those parental genes interact!

I found one flower today with tubular petals:

and a cactus flower with (almost) your style of petals:

I tried some Zahara Fire zinnias (marylandicas) and they are doing quite well in the heat and dryness, and show some resistance to all the bugs:

Just to look for new traits and to add some genes to my zinnia pool, I grew some Sunbows. I like bigger zinnias, but you never know what the smaller zinnias may bring:

JG

I remember earlier how Arlen was looking at changes in the haageana zinnias over time (within the same flowers, that is). I never noticed that it happened all that much here until today. Look at the two flowers on the same plant!

JG

JG,

"I found one flower today with tubular petals:"

It's very tubular, and has pollen. Can't hurt to spread that pollen around. And you could split some of those petals and self the stigmas within, providing they haven't already done it with concealed anthers.

"Just to look for new traits and to add some genes to my zinnia pool, I grew some Sunbows."

I've never grown the Sunbows. Are they an F1 hybrid? I did try some White Gems this year, and they have pathetically small flowers, many less than one inch across. Their plants do look pretty good though, in the bigger than Magellan/Dream but smaller than Burpeeana class.

"...and a cactus flower with (almost) your style of petals..."

That is to my liking. Ironically, I haven't gotten that strain of narrow down-rolled spider flowered zinnias that I seek. I have gotten quite a few zinnias with "open" flowerforms, with a lot of "air" between the petals, like this one.

However, I still get a lot of zinnias with closely packed petals, like this one.

I've actually put some of the Bugle pollen on that one, because it is well over six inches across, and also quite deep. It has the potential for giving the Bugle flowerform considerable volume and mass. I really hope to get some progeny from the Bugle. Incidentally, some of its later petals start to transition toward the tubular flower form. The Bugle and the Tubular petalled forms may not be too far apart. Although my Tubulars tend not to have their flowerform on all of the flowers on the plant, while the Bugle continues to produce new blooms with the same bugle petals.

Those two Haageana blooms do look totally different. Apparently the dark coloring accumulates with age. I still see occasional examples of when one zinnia branch seems to be genetically different from other branches on the same plant. Perhaps it is environmental. More later. It is 99 degrees right now, with a few white fluffy clouds in the area.

ZM

I hope you get some successful crosses with the Bugle plants. A big flower with Bugle petals would be very different...looking like it had ringlets, "Little Orphan Annie." Is that large pink flower an offspring of "Shaggy Dog"?

It may be that the same set of genes are responsible for X-Roll, tubular, and Bugle flowers...with a stronger expression from one phenotype to the next. I wonder if a trait such as those could be temperature induced, or induced by any other factor? I don't know if zinnias have some/any stomates in the petals, but if so, the rolled petals may be a strategy to reduce loss of water in some lines of plants.

I saved the seeds of large zinnias last year to get a strain of very large size. Here is one plant coming from that group now:

The seeds of 2009 continue to give me nice scabious plants.

JG

JG

"Is that large pink flower an offspring of "Shaggy Dog"? "

I'll check its tag in the morning and get back to you on that. I have several zinnias with Shaggy Dog tendencies, but only one with anything close to its long hanging petals. Your pictures show that you have a lot of good breeding material from your 2009 Candy Mix seeds. I am worried about how my 2011 Candy Mix seeds will perform. They were a later planting that is coming into bud now.

"I hope you get some successful crosses with the Bugle plants."

Me too. The Bugle plant continues to put out new flowers, and each one "holds true", like this one today.

I continue to use all of the Bugle pollen on "likely females", including some first blooms of Scabious-Whirligig recombinants, like this one.

The cull rate is really high on those recombinants, but I am getting a few good ones. I really need to check the labels on all of my breeders and cross-check their codes with my notebook entries. That way I will know their maternal parentage, at least. More tomorrow. It's going to be another "hot one".

ZM

"Is that large pink flower an offspring of "Shaggy Dog"?"

OK, I checked just now. That large pink flower was originally planted April 9, 2011 indoors from a "thin" seed, and it is an offspring of D74, which was a coral suffused rose Aster Flowered recombinant that was planted outdoors on June 6, 2010. D74 was from B28, which was the mother of D10, the Pink Shaggy Dog.

Incidentally, B28 was a big rose colored specimen with a spiderish flower form, and it was noted as possibly my best spider of 2008.

So, despite the different petal form, there is a relationship there. More later.

ZM

Hmmm..."Shaggy Dog" is a maternal aunt of that big pink flower you showed. Something about the depth/size of it reminded me of the "Shaggy Dog." It's really nice.

Your lavender scabious flower is a pretty color. I'm glad you are finding some good plants in this year's seeds. I am getting very few scabious flowers from my 2011 seeds this year!

I was looking back at my July Bonnet flowers. This was one of the first:

Four years later the descendant that looks the most similar in the garden is this:

Funny how genes can get diluted or recombined!

It seems so far this year that far fewer flowers are setting seed here, and I would expect the heat and dryness have a lot to do with that!

JG

JG,

"I am getting very few scabious flowers from my 2011 seeds this year!"

Actually, I think you are doing better than I am. So far my 2011 Candy Mix are a complete failure, producing mostly pathetic little single zinnias. Their seeds are not from Parks, and that may be part of the problem. All of my scabious types so far this season have been recombinants. This one looks like a Candy Mix, but it is actually an F2 recombinant from a Whirligig X Scabiosa cross that was made in 2006.

I remember that unusual marbled-striped look of your July Bonnet. I have seen a similar effect in some of the Stokes Whirligig mutants. It might be possible to recover that streaked form from Stokes Whirligigs.

"Funny how genes can get diluted or recombined!"

Grin. Sometimes I think those bees don't know what they are doing. But I'm not knocking them. They produced the Extreme Roll, and I have no idea how to do that. Other than to grow a lot more Stokes Whirligigs, which I plan to do next year. More later. We actually got a light rain this morning, and it should be cooler (less hot) today.

ZM

Like you, the new 'Candy Mix'seeds I bought this year gave me few scabious flowers. I think out of two seed packs (one from T&M, one from Park), I may have gotten 3 scabious flowers out of a good number of plants. I'm glad I saved seeds from 2009 because there were a number of different types of scabious flowers there, including the "marigold" type. Because of that, I am just going to generate my own supply of scabious seeds and not buy any more seeds in the future.

That last flower you show has that unusual color I saw in one of my flowers--nice seldom seen hue.

The weather front you got passed through here, but the northern part of Indiana got the rain. July this year has broken all records for the lack of rain! It is cooler here, but that is supposed to be temporary.

I have let my Extreme Rolls self-pollinate, and also I have been crossing some of those, but now I am going to take away most of the nets and let the bees do their random thing. I am not seeing many seeds...I don't know if it's the heat or a self-incompatibility issue..but I will see what some random crosses will do.

I found one flower in my garden with petals that are turned down at the ends. Not desirable necessarily, but all flowers on the same plant show this effect.

JG

JG,

"Because of that, I am just going to generate my own supply of scabious seeds and not buy any more seeds in the future."

Good idea. I still have a bunch of the bogus 2011 Candy Mix, and I will probably plant the rest of them next year, very close, anticipating extreme culling.

You should save seed from that down-rolled petal specimen. It might develop into something. I hope you get a good yield of Extreme Roll specimens for next year.

Last year I had a couple of "toothy" specimens, which I selfed and inter-crossed. This year I have gotten several toothies from that, including this one.

I think the toothies have a certain charm, and I plan to develop them into a strain. And in the process, I will keep my eye open for an "extreme toothy". More later. It was a bit less hot today after a shower last night, but the humidity made it feel like a sauna outside.

ZM

JG,

Some of my specimens are a bit more toothy, like this one.

And this one is also a bit more toothy.

None of them are what I would classify as "extreme toothy", but I would like to get something with petals that virtually exploded. And some of my toothies will get some Bugle pollen, because the Bugle could use some toothiness.

ZM

Those toothy flowers of yours are so pretty! Not only are they toothy, but they have the very slender petals that gives them that look of elegance. I think what you said you might like is a toothiness so extreme you almost have an effect like a Teddy Bear sunflower, or a Stokes aster. I hope you get that look--that would be a breakthrough, but what you have now looks pretty good!

I see no unusual things...this little cactus below has the thinnest petals I see here! (except for some of the X-Rolls--which makes me want to get those in a more subdued color--last year I had a small white one, but no such luck this year)..

A number of my zinnias show a nice dark edge when out in the sun for awhile.

JG

JG,

I am hoping that you do get some more X-Rolls next year. It appears that all of my scabious types this year will be recombinants, since my planting of Candy Mix is not producing breeders. This is another Whirligig-Scabiosa recombinant that is just blooming out.

It has one of those difficult-to-describe zinnia colors. Perhaps a pastel apricot. More later. This evening I weeded some grass out of some of my older zinnias.

ZM

I had a garden party here with a number of county garden club members, and I think they may now think of including zinnias in their garden. Despite the scorching heat and dryness, my flowers were bright with all the stress they have been undergoing!

I was looking through some garden catalogs, and noticed that there is another source of scabious zinnias, and that is Select Seeds. They claim that their mix is an improved collection, and imply that "all" come with the scabious centers.

I see the whirligig influence on cactus flowers

and Benary-type flowers

Here is one of the latest Extreme Rolls:

JG

I am glad that your garden party was a success, and that your zinnias made such a favorable impression. I continue to be attracted by the thin petals of your Extreme Roll strain-in-the-making.

I think I saw that same Select Seeds listing and description. As I recall, white was conspicuous by its absence from the Gumdrop Candy strain, but I probably will order some of their seed. I am appalled at the poor quality of my 2011 Candy Mix seeds.

I found a pleasant surprise in my planting of "toothy" zinnias. I will post a picture tomorrow.

ZM

JB,

Well, it's tomorrow. I found an interesting Whirligig-based toothy.

While looking for some good pollen to put on it, I came across this rather remarkable specimen:

It is enough different from my other toothies that I am referring to it as a "Spider Toothy". I'll probably think of a more appropriate name as time goes on. The extra thin nature of its toothy petals gives the impression of a new flowerform for zinnias. Some of the emerging petals remind me of baby birds begging for food in the nest. You can also "see through" the flower, which is a trait that I like.

I am enthusiastic about this specimen, and I have resolved to give toothies a more prominent role in my zinnia breeding. The Spider Toothy doesn't quite live up to my goal of "exploding petals", but it does seem worthy of stabilizing as a strain in its present form. In the future, "toothies" will take an even footing with my scabious types. I hope to go beyond the Spider Toothy, but I will also attempt to get it in assorted colors and color patterns.

It remains to be seen what, if anything, will come out of the Bugle crosses. I have crossed the Bugle onto some of my toothies, as well as many of my other breeders.

ZM

These toothy flowers you have are very nice...that last almost blue one is spectacular! I can see why you are excited! The thin petals are so different! I have to say that the flower barely resembles a zinnia...really interesting.

The most toothy flower I have now has terrible form, but maybe I can cross it with some other flowers to get something prettier and try to retain the toothiness.

Interesting about it, the leaves are all in "threesies" on that plant.

I think it was last year I saw pointy potals on a little Sunbow flower. This year I saw the same trait in a larger flower--don't know if that was a result of hybridization with Sunbows or not.

JG

JG,

"The most toothy flower I have now has terrible form"

Its split petals have real potential, and the "threesie" leaves are a bonus. I would treat this specimen as a potential "ugly duckling" that could eventually become a swan when selfed and/or crossed with other zinnias.

I think the pointed petals have definite potential as well. As you select for more "pointiness" they could evolve into yet another new flower form.

Another toothy specimen has joined the group that I am selfing and intercrossing.

The toothy zinnias tend to be singles, including the Spider Toothy, but there are several double toothies that I am intercrossing with, like this one.

By building up a good population of toothy seed, I think I will be able to select out some good double and semi-double ones.

"...that last almost blue one..."

That picture was taken in the shade, which tends to exaggerate the blueness of lavenders and orchid colors. It is really not a step toward blue any more than any of the lavender/orchid zinnia colors. I would certainly welcome a more bluish zinnia, but I think genetic engineering is going to be required to get good blue zinnias. Incidentally, I think that biotechnology will eventually come to zinnias, as it already has to several other ornamentals. I have mixed feelings about that, but I will keep an open mind.

ZM

You are really building a good base to draw upon for developing the toothy zinnias. They are very pretty now, and it will be interesting to see what you get in the future. I expect you will be working with these indoors during the winter as well. A full zinnia with many thin, toothy petals would be so pretty! It looks like you are selecting for pastel colors.

Have you ever thought of entering some of your flowers in a show, just to gauge the opinions of the judges? There is a regional garden club show coming up here in October. My Extreme Rolls are hardly pretty, but it would be interesting just to see what the judges thought. I have a feeling though that I will have very few good examples growing in October, let alone with leaves with no damage, holes, or mildew!

The P1 maternal plant of Extreme Roll had a flower very much unlike the Extreme Roll line, and the reason I kept the seeds of it was because the petals were so unusually fine and silky--kind of a cactus type, but with petals that were not pointed or curled. Occasionally I get a throwback to that parent and I saw one among the Extreme Roll F2s today. Instead of having fuchsia flowers like the P1 mother, though, it has red flowers (I have no idea what the male P1 was for the Extreme Rolls, as I allowed the flower to be randomly pollinated).

JG

JG,

"...and the reason I kept the seeds of it was because the petals were so unusually fine and silky--kind of a cactus type, but with petals that were not pointed or curled."

Those fine and silky petals sound very interesting to me. Your picture of that "throwback" recombinant is very interesting, and its petals are not only rather like my "aster flowered" zinnias, but they hang down sort of "shaggy dog" style. Incidentally, although none of my Shaggy Dog progeny have duplicated the parent, some of them show some of the influence, like this one.

I still have some of the seed from the Pink Shaggy Dog (its codename is D10) and I plan to experiment with them inside. I hate to commit really choice seed to the dangers of outside planting (cutworms, moles, whatever) so I start them inside where, with the aid of Bayer All-In-One, or its equivalent, I can protect them from most hazards. Indoor zinnia culture has its own hazards, like aphid or thrips outbreaks, but All-In-One provides protection from aphids and thrips as well.

We most likely will see a killing frost in October. I thought about exhibiting some zinnias in Ottawa's recent Franklin County Fair, but this heat spell discouraged me from doing that. The heat also discouraged a lot of people from going to the Fair this year, because attendance was much lower than usual, and the Fair apparently lost money.

Last year the County Fair had several categories of zinnias, and they all looked very winnable to me. Except for the 4H zinnia categories -- I wouldn't be eligible to enter in them. Maybe next year I will enter some zinnias in the Fair.

We are bracing ourselves for predicted air temperatures of 110 or higher tomorrow. Records will probably be set in this general area. I watered most of my zinnias today in an attempt to get them ready, but I expect they will take on that wilted look anyway. More later.

ZM

I have a daughter down in Kansas, and she reported that you folks did indeed get the 110 degrees! It's very difficult to enjoy the summer outdoors in that kind of weather. It's very hot here, and has been in the 90's for over two weeks straight. In Indiana, this July broke all records for dryness.

I guess if we get viable seeds from our plants, that will be one step closer to having (more)heat- and drought-resistant strains of flowers through selection.

With respect with plants coming from the seeds of ray flowers vs. disc flowers, have you noticed any difference in the rates of germination? Also, have you observed any differences in the characteristics of the plants arising from each? I am starting to collect seeds now, and am thinking maybe of separating the two types of seeds from certain flowers. It seems almost a given that the seeds arising from the disc flowers will be the result of self-pollination, while those from the ray flowers may or not be the result of cross- pollination (easier to control). I have never paid attention as to how well the small seeds from the disc flowers germinated, and I haven't gone to the effort of separating them out as I collected them!

I have some cactus flowers that are somewhat similar to the
one you have just shown, as the one below:

It's still early now. I may go out and see if I can take some more pictures to post, although most likely they won't show anything terribly different than what I've posted before!

JG

Here are a few more flowers, as seen today--

A relative of July Bonnet, the purple model:

A big "Medusa"-type cactus:

An F-2 X-Roll sib:

Two variations of the F-2 X-Roll phenotype, one interesting because it shows a white interior to the tips of the petals:

JG

JG,

That July Bonnet color streaking is a nice effect. I like it. Your deep cactus specimen is remarkably similar to mine. Your Pink Medusa looks great. The X-Roll with white interiors on the petal tips is begging to be crossed with something. Your X-rolls appear in an encouraging variety. Apparently several genes are at work there.

"I have a daughter down in Kansas, and she reported that you folks did indeed get the 110 degrees!"

It may have actually exceeded that where we live. We also had considerable wind, and it felt almost like a blow torch. Our grass took a heavy hit, and a lot of it appears dead.

"...if we get viable seeds from our plants, that will be one step closer to having (more) heat- and drought-resistant strains of flowers through selection."

Agreed. They say that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Maybe that also applies to zinnias.

"With respect with plants coming from the seeds of ray flowers vs. disc flowers, have you noticed any difference in the rates of germination? Also, have you observed any differences in the characteristics of the plants arising from each?"

My petal and floret seeds seem to both germinate in about 2 to 4 days under good conditions. I have not noticed any difference in the plants attributable to the seed type, except that petal seeds are more likely to be cross pollinated, while florets are much more likely to be selfed. I frequently segregate the seeds from my scabious recombinants, simply because the petal seeds are where most of the cross pollination will be.

That "Spider Toothy" has aged a bit, but it still retains much of its original flower form. Notice that all of its stigmas have been pollinated. It must have some Whirligig genes.

Most of the "toothy" pollen gets used on other toothies, but I am also outcrossing the toothies to other "likely" candidates, like this scabious recombinant.

I selected it because its guard petals show a hint of toothiness. It looks a bit like a marigold. I think that a combination of toothy and scabious could lead to some interesting new zinnia flowerforms. More later. We are supposed to have more reasonable temps tomorrow, with a chance of rain.

ZM

I really look forward to seeing the offspring of the last purple toothy flower you showed! I wonder how much the narrow petals and toothy edges will be inherited. I'm still having a hard time understanding the inheritance patterns in zinnias. For me, sometimes it is reliable, and sometimes totally off the wall, even when I thought I had placed some control on the crosses.

But that flower is very pretty, and I hope you can continue that line! It really is so much different than any of the cultivars out there.

I have some cactus flowers, not so unusual. The first is yellow with curly petals.

The second is one I know county fair judges would like (like you, I didn't enter anything in the fair, it was much too hot, and I was working hard to get my garden ready for a tour)...

Here is another "stacked" flower..the petals seem to be wrapped around the stem below the top of the flower.

I think this is one of those "mutants" you say you see among the Whirligigs:

I've seen this before, but a Sunbow in my garden has a lot of variegation among its leaves. The flower itself is unaffeceted, but there is a lot of white in the leaves. I think I will save the seeds and see if it may be inherited.

JG

JG,

I really like that "stacked" specimen. I would treat it as a breeder because that flower form is rather distinct. That "big red" would have been very competitive at a fair. I would save seeds from it for that reason.

"I really look forward to seeing the offspring of the last purple toothy flower you showed! I wonder how much the narrow petals and toothy edges will be inherited."

I can hardly wait to see those offspring as well. I am fairly optimistic that I won't "lose" the toothy trait. This is another toothy "player" that bloomed out recently.

So far it hasn't put out any pollen of its own yet, but its flower is reasonably double, and I am using it primarily as a female for Spider Toothy pollen. More later. I still have some pollenization to do today. I was just on a "break" when I saw your message.

ZM

I hope you will post a photo of the last flower you showed when it is fully in bloom. It will be interesting to see it when all the petals have come out!

Last year, I saved seeds from flowers whose petals were strap-like. That is, the petals were almost rectangular in shape, and I can see this year that it is an inherited trait. Below is an example:

Below is a cactus with a nice pattern of "curls":

And finally, another scabious recombinant, similar to others I have with the scabious disc and the larger ray flowers:

JG

JG,

I really like those strap-like petals. I would self a specimen like that and look for the same or better in the next generation. Your "curls" and scabious are definite breeder class as well.

"I hope you will post a photo of the last flower you showed when it is fully in bloom. It will be interesting to see it when all the petals have come out!"

I took this photo this morning. The pink color has developed somewhat since that first photo was taken.

I notice it has a lot of receptive stigmas that need to be pollenized, so I will get to that this morning. I guess "pollenized" isn't a word, but I think of it as a word in my brain, and make a fine distinction between "pollenized" as applying pollen to the stigma and "pollinated" as having the pollen "take".

Incidentally, there is a pollination technique that I don't think I have mentioned before, because it is a little tedious and might be off-putting to someone just beginning the hobby. But I will describe it here, for what it is worth. When you pick a pollen floret (disk floret) with tweezers, twissors, or forceps to use the "star" as a brush to apply the pollen, after you have used what is available that way, you can pull back a couple of "starfish arms" while pinching the remaining "arms" to expose the anther bundle in the neck of the floret. With a little care, you can grasp the anther bundle and use it to apply some remaining pollen inside.

That technique is only worthwhile on "high value" pollen. However, I consider a lot my pollen to be high value, and now habitually go for the anther bundle after applying pollen from the floret brushes. More later. It's time to get out there and "practice what I preach".

ZM

That is another beautiful flower you have just shown! Just a pretty color and very interesting and out of the ordinary form with the toothy petals. I can see how it would be a very good parent with the Spider Zinnia you have shown earlier. I am sure this represents many generations of selection, and it looks like it is really paying off!

I will have to check your method of pollination. I don't believe I have torn a disc flower up other than to further look at the stigmas in the center. I will try and find the anther bundle you describe.

I don't have much to show today, other than some zinnia colors I have noticed. The first is with the seeds. I have a very high percentage of flowers having yellow seeds this year.

Most often, the seeds have been a fuzzy dark green.

I found a plant with red pigmentation in the leaves. The flowers are very bright red, and the plant otherwise seems healthy. I have never seen this color in zinnia leaves before, except right at the nodes, where the leaves join the stem.

My zinnias are now supporting what appears to be a large community of goldfinches. It seems as soon as seeds mature on the flowers, the birds harvest them for a meal..I am going to have to cover every flower from which I want to save seeds!

I notice in one corner of my garden, some of the plants already have white spots of mildew. It seems early in the year for that! The species zinnia (haageana, etc.) have shown good resistance in the past.

JG

JG,

I don't have any explanation for the yellow seeds. The red pigmented leaves specimen seems worthy of saving seeds from, just for the novelty of it. I, too, have noted a problem with finches and other seed-eating birds. I have protected my Bugle and one of its chosen female plants with nylon screening safety-pinned to the top of their zinnia cages. I plan to make and deploy a bunch of individual bloom nylon nets.

Fortunately, most of the damage so far has been in my Whirligig patch, to zinnias that I should have already culled. I guess I am lucky that they have served as decoys to the birds, but I can't depend on that much longer.

This scabious recombinant has been receiving some of the Bugle pollen, and I plan to give it some protection today.

It has kind of an asymmetrical flower, but I like its informality and it is fairly large for a "scabi". I have no idea what the consequences of the Bugle pollen will be. More later. I have to protect some seed producers.

ZM

JG,

I have caged and screened that specimen to hopefully protect it from birds.

The screen is lightweight nylon screening. I see that I need to close one of those safety pins. I think I will give that zinnia a shot of Bayer All-In-One to protect it from insects and such. I should do that for all of my breeders. More later. We got a shower this afternoon, but not much water from it. More showers are possible here for the next few days.

ZM

That pretty scabious flower looks well-protected! I wonder how the offspring with the tubular parent will go. I can imagine a scabious-like flower with tubular disc florettes, but having ray florettes, too.. Looking forward to seeing how it goes!

I have a number of flowers in individual nylon netting covers.

I really have nothing new to show here today. I believe we are now in Day 22 of temperatures 90 degrees or above, and our location here has received a quarter of an inch of rain in six weeks. And with those hot temperatures, the plants are just hanging in there. Not only are many of my zinnias wilted, many are actually bent over. Rain came through parts of Indiana today but not in our area.

The gardens still are showing some color.

There are several other patches, surviving through the dryness.

JG

JG,

"I can imagine a scabious-like flower with tubular disc florettes, but having ray florettes, too.. Looking forward to seeing how it goes!"

There are several possibilities. Actually, the commercial scabious zinnias like Candy Mix occur in several different forms. In one form, the central florets have inaccessible stigmas, and in some forms the stigmas are accessible in the central florets. Another form has central florets that are very similar to the guard petals, with all of the stigmas being reasonably accessible. I had one Candy Mix (Parks 2009) last year that had tubular guard petals.

As I recall, the seeds from it were questionably viable, but I don't think I planted them outside. I'll check my seeds to see if I still have any of them. If I do, they will qualify for special treatment indoors. But that flower form (tubular ray petals) is one possibility for the Bugle x Scabious crosses. This scabious recombinant has been receiving some Bugle pollen recently.

I kind of like its color. It reminds me of butterscotch. I plan to grow a few of the Bugle crosses and selfs indoors this Winter to get a headstart on next year. More later. We got a shower this morning and the garden is still wet.

ZM

The last two scabious flowers that you showed are both interesting--the one with the butterscotch color and curly petals is pretty, and the other with the tubular ray florets is different. The latter would have definitely been a good candidate for crossing with your red tubular flowers! Certainly offspring of it would be a good choice, too. It seems that both toothiness and tubes may originate with the scabious zinnias. I suspect that the Whirligigs may get many of their characteristics from scabious zinnias, too! It would be nice to get some size into the tubular flowers...if they could be tubular yet serrated on the edges like some of the scabious florets, and larger, what a flower that would be!

I have a scabious flower starting to bloom somewhat like one you had shown previously.

And, I had shown a tubular flower earlier and now a second flower has come out on the same plant. The petals look tubular, and take the form, but are not completely sealed off.

Here is a different form of a cactus flower:

This little flower below had just produced ray florets, then many disc florets in succession. Then things changed and it put out a few more ray florets.

And, finally, this is another Extreme Roll sib. I like the shape of its petals, and I have a number of others with similar flowers that are X-Roll cousins, that I may start a line of.

JG

JG,

"I have a scabious flower starting to bloom somewhat like one you had shown previously."

Yes, that's a definite scabious hybrid or recombinant. I have referred to them at times as "echinacea flowered".

"The petals look tubular, and take the form, but are not completely sealed off."

That one is very interesting, and looks pretty good, too. It's interesting that it is significantly different from the original bloom on the same plant. That seems to be a recurrent theme with zinnias -- that one branch can differ significantly from another. I would give that one full breeder status and, if it doesn't put out any pollen to self it with, then I would cross "likely" pollen onto it.

"Here is a different form of a cactus flower:"

I have seen a few similar to it, although probably none with as much recurve to their petals. Could be another interesting strain.

"This little flower below had just produced ray florets, then many disc florets in succession. Then things changed and it put out a few more ray florets."

I wonder if that is genetic or simply environmental. I routinely cull my singles, although some look pretty good. The Spider Toothy is actually a single, but I have given it breeder status based on its petal formation.

"And, finally, this is another Extreme Roll sib. I like the shape of its petals, and I have a number of others with similar flowers that are X-Roll cousins, that I may start a line of."

By all means, do that. Those sharp pointed petals have a unique look.

"It seems that both toothiness and tubes may originate with the scabious zinnias."

The scabious do indeed have both of those traits in many specimens.

"I suspect that the Whirligigs may get many of their characteristics from scabious zinnias, too!"

Perhaps, but I have always thought of Whirligigs as their own source of traits. I have seen a lot of toothy or semi-toothy Whirligigs. I think that Whirligigs include Zinnia haageana in their distant ancestors, and get their bicolor and tricolor coloration from that source. But I have to admit complete ignorance about the origin of the scabiosa flowered zinnias. I remember that decades ago there was a commercial strain of large scabious zinnias called "Howard's Crested". Yet another unfortunately extinct zinnia strain.

"It would be nice to get some size into the tubular flowers...if they could be tubular yet serrated on the edges like some of the scabious florets, and larger, what a flower that would be!"

Indeed. That would be a great new zinnia flower form, and I hope to make some progress in that direction next year. I think your Extreme Rolls would look great with toothy petal endings. In one way, that second zinnia you pictured has some petal structure in common with your Extreme Rolls. Young toothy blooms tend to look nice, even when they aren't very toothy.

Extreme Rolls with toothy petals could be a big improvement on that. A zinnia with huge scabious florets could be another good flower form. I have no idea what role, if any, the Bugle mutant can play in that. I am pollinating several of my newly blooming specimens with Bugle pollen, like this one.

It has large petals and big stigmas, which could combine well with the Bugle tubular petals. I am trying a "shotgun" approach with the Bugle pollen, applying it to a variety of zinnia females. Next year, and even this Winter indoors, should be interesting.

ZM

I look forward to the results of your Bugle crosses. I am wondering what the inheritance pattern of those Bugles will be! That last magenta flower is a bright one!

We finally got a cool day today, although the rain passed us over by a few miles yesterday. Finally my Extreme Rolls began to shed pollen, so I made some crosses. I would
like to get brighter flowers while retainng the form.

For the most part, I am selecting newly blooming flowers to pollinate, that hopefully haven't been pollinated yet by natural means. The first two are red cousins of the Extreme Rolls, chosen for color as well as the inbreeding potential in order to regain the form in the F1s.

The next flower is a more mature flower on the same plant as the younger flower I actually pollinated, while the next red flower was the one pollinated.

A younger flower on the same plant as this flower was pollinated:

Then to check the inheritance of the Extreme Roll color, I pollinated a younger flower on the same plant as this flower;

Finally, I pollinated this semi-tubular flower. I don't know if it may be too late for this one.

Anyway, I will repeat this process with all of the flowers over a week or so, to make sure I get the timing right (I'm pretty sure some were not in the best receptive state today).

Hopefully there will be pollen to use!

JG

JG,

Your first picture has a remarkable bright color combination. I think that magenta of my picture was exaggerated a bit by our camera's sensor. It seems to make reds and purples brighter than in nature. I probably should have "toned it down a bit" in post processing. I thought of it as a medium purple while I was pollinating it. Its older petals are now fading a bit in the sun.

Your second picture has nicely unusual petal shapes. Your third could be a Candy Mix. White is an interesting "color". It is probably not an organic dye like many of the zinnia pigments. My guess is that white is a structural color. I'm hoping you get some seeds from that last one. I think it has potential to produce something very interesting.

"For the most part, I am selecting newly blooming flowers to pollinate, that hopefully haven't been pollinated yet by natural means."

I'm doing pretty much the same thing, using some of my new blooming plants. This purple recombinant has been receiving Bugle pollen. I did de-saturate its color slightly for a more realistic appearance.

At first I thought that a spider or something had made a nest with its newly emerging petals, but as it has developed since I took the picture, that is just its natural way of "presenting" its new petals. I like its "open" spaced petals, but I have no idea how that will combine with the Bugle flower form. This is another new zinnia that has been receiving Bugle pollen.

It has a nicely large informal flower and a Burpeeana-style lower bushy plant. I hope to get a variety of Bugle crosses so that I can inter-cross them to get a wide range of recombination in the subsequent generation. More later. Today was cooler and I got quite a bit of pollination done.

ZM

That's interesting the way the purple flower is opening. I wonder if all the flowers will open the same way on that plant? I like the orange cactus, too, especially the way that the petals are uneven in length. The colors on both are nice. I hope the Bugle form is seen in your crosses! It will be interesting to see what flowers (and their genes) will be influenced by the Bugle.

As I collect seeds this year, I see that I am getting far fewer than usual. I think that the heat and dryness had a huge inpact on the fertility of the flowers. We also lost our bees due to wax moths last fall so that may be making a difference, too.

Finally temperatures have dropped and things may pick up now with seed production as well as general health of the plants.

Below are two scabious recombinants.

JG

JG,

You have done rather well in the scabious department. I was disappointed with my scabious appearances, mainly because my big planting of Candy Mix produced essentially nothing usable. I'll probably plant the rest of those seeds in a bed next year, quite closely spaced, anticipating a very high cull rate. This is one of my scabious recombinants that I am using as a breeder.

It apparently has some Whirligig heritage. I have used both Bugle and Toothy pollen on it. Its guard petals have a trace of "toothiness". I haven't saved any seeds yet (I should start) but I have begun an early Fall cleanup. More later. Our nighttime temperature has been in the 60s a couple of times recently, which feels like Fall in the early morning.

ZM

You have some nice scabious recombinants, too. I think we will both be better off keeping up our own lines of scabious zinnias, rather than relying on the seed companies for seeds. I bet not too many folks buy scabious seeds so companies feel they can slack up on the quality control.

The orange flower you show is pretty. The disc florets are very toothy!

I mentioned earlier than a good number of my seeds are yellow this year. When you start harvesting seeds, let me know if you see any of these. I'm hoping the color is not linked to poor viability.

Every year I have plants whose flowers have upturned petals. I am convinced that this trait is heritary, but don't how it could be used to create a new strain. As they are, they are hardly attractive!

I like flowers where the reverse sides of the petals are pure white. I have a number of those.

Earlier I showed a flowers whose pink petals were being bleached white by the sun. I also have a plants whose light-colored petals age to a dark pink color.

JG

JG,

Your observation about white petal backsides is most significant. I think I have seen it only twice in the last several years, and both times it was on a purple zinnia. I think it would be really great to get the backsides of all of my zinnias to be white. I'll have to be on the watch for "white backs" and give them special breeder attention.

I have seen a few of the upturned petals, and I am also not attracted by their look. One had broader petals, and it had a kind of tulip effect, but I am not going after tulip flowered zinnias as a strain. It could be done, though.

I am continuing to pollinate toothy zinnias with other toothy zinnias, in order to hopefully build up my seed supply of them. This is another female toothy bloom.

I think the key to getting some really good toothies is to grow a large number of them and self and intercross the best specimens. I have a feeling, although I am not certain of it, that toothiness is at least partially recessive.

I have seen zinnias with light-colored petals that age darker, but none quite so dramatically as your specimen. Ironically, all of my really dark colored zinnias age lighter.

I agree with you about our maintaining our own stocks of scabious zinnias, although I would like to get some "new blood" too, so I will grow some commercial scabious zinnias next year, but plant them close in anticipation of a high cull rate. I have noticed that some of my scabious recombinants tend to have missing guard petals, like this one.

It looks sort of like a kid with missing teeth, and I was concerned that this is a bad genetic trait. But then I remembered another incident over on Dave's Garden in which a participant showed a picture (also non too detailed) of a scabiosa flowered zinnia with no guard petals at all. The floret-only flowers looked quite unique. I persuaded her to send me some seedheads, but it turned out that they had no viable seed. But I was impressed by the unique look of that picture. So I think I will go after a strain of "scabis" without guard petals. And toward that end, I won't cull my scabis with missing teeth, in the hope that some of their progeny might have no teeth at all.

It seems that my "wish list" for zinnias continues to grow. And now you have added white-backed petals to that list. All these breeding goals just add interest to next year's zinnia plantings. I think next year will be an interesting zinnia year. I hope that the commercial people will come out with some interesting new zinnia varieties next year.

ZM

The pink toothy flower is pretty, and although toothy, also looks like it has some "Shaggy Dog" genes in it! The shade of pink is good, too.

I also have had a number of scabious flowers with missing petals. Now at this time, I'm never sure as the birds are swiping seeds as soon as they become ripe and give the flowers that appearance. Earlier in the season I also showed a scabious flower without guard petals, but it wasn't too convincing, as although the disc florets had been maturing and falling away or dropping off, it could have also been that the rays were being broken off. I need to watch for less mature flowers on that plant, given I can once again locate it!

Today I found two mutants in the garden, not too exciting, but here they are:

The disc on the above was not circular, but linear. Then, I found a very toothy flower, with many of the petals being split by half the lengths of the petals. It's not totally obvious by the photo, though.

I saw a pretty cactus-whirligig recombinant that I liked:

We finally got rain in the last 24 hours--about a half an inch, and my zinnias have been quickly taking up the moisture. The flowers look more hydrated and hard to believe, but the plants are quickly also gaining heighth.
We had strong winds followed by rain come through last night, and you probably heard of the big outdoor concert stage that was blown over at the Indiana State Fair.

You mentioned one of the things you would like to obtain in your zinnias are the petals with white on the back. One thing I would like to have is a fragrance in the zinnias, and from time to time I check some of my flowers for that.
So far, I detect no fragrance in the flowers with no disc florets, and a very faint fragrance in the flowers that do have them. That would play a role in attracting the pollinators, no doubt.

There's not much pollen today, but my guess is that there will be plenty tomorrow!

JG

JG,

I've never seen anything like that first zinnia. I don't know if I like it or not, but I might save seeds from it just to see if that configuration is genetic. I don't think this applies to your odd zinnia, but occasionally I will see some strangeness in a zinnia or two caused by Aster Yellows virus. Aster Yellows virus is incurable, so I just remove the whole plant and put it in the trash to go to the landfill. I had a couple of zinnias this Spring take on some really strange flower formations that I interpreted as Asters Yellows, so I discarded them. I think that some insects, like maybe leafhoppers, can transmit the virus. I wonder if it is seed borne. My guess would be that it could be. I doubt that there is any seed treatment you could do that would remove it. I am considering treating the seeds that I start indoors with something like bleach or hydrogen peroxide. I haven't worked out the details of that. But if I can prevent some seed-borne stuff, I would like to do that.

I, too, sniff zinnias from time to time. Occasionally I detect a very slight fragrance. If any of us find a fragrant zinnia mutant, I hope we catch it and save seeds from it. I think that some of my zinnias put out a lot more nectar than normal, but I'm not sure that I like that trait. The extra nectar usually attracts a lot of little ants, who feed on it, I guess.

"We had strong winds followed by rain come through last night, and you probably heard of the big outdoor concert stage that was blown over at the Indiana State Fair."

Yes, I saw some dramatic footage of that on TV. Tragic fatalities and injuries. That structure looked kind of jury-rigged from scaffolding, and top heavy. My guess is that the next structures of that sort will be inspected using more stringent safety standards. And lawsuits with significant settlements will probably result from that tragedy.

Occasionally I take a picture of a zinnia that I like more for the qualities of the picture than the zinnia itself. This is one such picture.

That bloom is young and unblemished by age and it has delicate pastel coloration. This is another such picture.

It has delicate yellow petal textures that I like. My work with our Kodak point-and-shoot is pretty much hit or miss, but occasionally I get something that I like. I'm going to be extra busy for the next few days, so my next response may be a bit delayed. But I will return. So, more later.

ZM

Those last two pictures are very nice, highlighting the pastel colors and the details of the flowers, right down to the chaffy scales. You ought to frame them, or even make a collage of the photos you like the best. I usually take pictures with my Sony Cybershot, but I have a Canon that I'm not quite comfortable working with yet. It is easily affected by any shaking despite the stabilizer that it has. I would be happy to get the sorts of pictures you have been showing on this forum!

I haven't seen the scabious plant with the lack of guard petals on its flowers, but I do have a plant that has little or no petals as seen in its flowers today:

Here are new flowers on plants whose prior flowers I've shown earlier:

I am saving seeds of both. I really hope I can get a duplication of the purple flower, but I have my doubts!

I am glad you told me about the virus. Occasionally I will see a stunted or misformed plant, and probably I should destroy it...it's good to be aware of the diseases that can infect the zinnias.

JG

We've has some very nice weather lately, and the flowers are starting to look better with the rain in the past week.
And, the butterflies are starting to visit in greater numbers.

JG

The zinnias are popular with the hummingbirds, too.

JG

Hi JG,

Well, I'm back, sort of. Still swamped with a lot of yard work to do. A recent windstorm brought down a large tree limb, and I still have some work to do to take it apart and put it through my shredder-chipper. Some of it may be firewood. That tree is still sort of scary, because it seems that its remaining structure is none too sound. I may have some chainsaw work to do.

That zinnia without petals looks very interesting. I would be curious to see how it develops. That light purple marbled-striped zinnia looks quite promising. It has a kind of striping that looks attractive to me. I have seen a similar effect on some Whirligig mutants, except that they had very weird blooms, while yours is reasonably conventional.

I took this picture today of a new member of my growing clan of toothy zinnias.

I am cautiously optimistic about going a long way toward getting a strain of toothy zinnias next year. It seems that nearly half of the toothy x toothy crosses produce recombinant toothies. That's a much better yield than scabious crosses produce for me.

That's an amazing photo of the hummingbird and zinnia. I haven't had much luck stopping their motion. We have a lot of hummingbirds and butterflies in our zinnias, but I've been too busy to concentrate on trying to photograph them. We did get a decent rain last night and the night before.

What model of Canon do you have? I have seen some fantastic nature pictures from Canon digital SLRs posted on photographic websites -- pictures far better than any I can get from our old Kodak Z712 IS. More later. Thanks for keeping things going in my absence.

ZM

Correction: That tree is still sort of scary, because it seems that its remaining structure is none too sound.

ZM

Correction to the correction: That tree is still sort of scary, because it seems that its remaining structure is none too sound.

ZM

This is weird. I double checked the preview this time, and that last message was correct in the Preview. Now I am suspecting it was correct in the previous message as well. I will just sneak in what I was trying to say originally, and in the correction, and in the correction to the correction.

That tree is still sort of scary, because it seems that its remaining structure is none too sound.

If that "none" doesn't come through this time, I give up.

ZM

OK. I do give up. This forum software is removing the word that is spelled n o n e from my submitted messages. Weird. That seems to be a bug in the forum software. I will rephrase the sentence in a way intended as a workaround to defeat that bug in the forum software.

That tree is still sort of scary, because it seems that its remaining structure is not very strong.

ZM

It looks like you got caught up in a tech twilight zone trying to get a sentence written! Well, you had a good excuse...I make those mistakes all on my own due to no training ever in typing or keyboarding along with a real talent in proofreading where I see what I want to see rather than see what is really there.
It seems like you have gone far in creating a strain of toothy zinnias. They are different than anything than is out there...that is for sure, and they are pretty. That last one you showed looks like it could be partly tubular, although it may be that it is opening up that way, as I've noticed some flowers do. Anyway, it's really nice and I think you have a consistant expression of that trait among your plants!

I pretty much finished my crosses with the four plants I mentioned earlier with Extreme Roll plants---the stigmas that were coming on in those four plants looked curled...possibly already pollinated by wind, or unhealthy. So, I started crossing with a new flower from the same plant as that below, as it had lots of stigmas and looked easier to pollinate. I think many of the seeds have already started to form.

I have a number of Extreme Roll F2s, but the flowers of each plant definitely show varaition, as I have shown before.

I have been using plants with flowers like the last flower I showed here as parents in my crosses as they are the most extreme.

The new camera that I have is a Canon EOS Rebel T2i. As I said, I still have real trouble getting a good depth of field with close-up shots and I find it difficult to hold still when the shutter speed is slower (never had that difficulty with the Sony--maybe I just have to learn how to hold this new camera). So far, the advantages are that it is very fast compared to my other camera, and has a better balance of light in the pictures I take.

Good luck with the tree--hope you don't have to take the whole thing down!

JG

JG,

I am sure that once you get through the learning curve with your Canon T2i that you will get some really good pictures. I have noticed that I have more depth of field when the zoom lens is in the wide angle range. But I usually like to throw the background out of focus, so I frequently photograph toward the telephoto end of the zoom range. I have a monopod, but haven't used it so far. I must make a mental note to try that the next time I take a few pictures.

That last Extreme Roll specimen is spectacular! You really have something there, with breakthrough narrow petals. There is potential there for a whole new flowerform in zinnias.

Another toothy specimen joined the ranks of my toothy crowd.

I am doing a lot of inter-crossing between various toothy specimens, with the hope of getting still more variations in that flower form. I figure that the more seedstock, the better are the chances for getting good specimens. I plan to expand my garden again next year.

Today I treated several of my breeders with Bayer Advanced All-In-One to hopefully give them resistance to the insects and diseases that seem to be a problem in the Fall. Some kind of little worm has damaged a few zinnia heads. I haven't seen any mildew yet, but as the days shorten and the climate cools, problems are bound to occur. More later. We were under a heat advisory again today, and also tomorrow.

ZM

It would be interesting to know if the seeds saved from the red side would produce solid red flowers, and if the seeds saved from the striped side would produce striped progeny.

ZM

And I wish I could tell you what the seeds produced, but I pressed that zinnia so I could keep it...

eicher,

The Peppermint Stick and Candy Cane zinnias have "broken" color patterns of dots, streaks, and stripes. Occasionally you will see a "half and half" bloom like the one you pictured. My guess is that the red petals would produce pure red zinnias, but I could be wrong about that.

That last pic of JG's has an even more extreme roll than her "Extreme Roll" specimens. Those petals look almost like pine needles. Some Whirligigs have narrow petals right out of the seed packet, like this one.

For that reason, I thought that if I grew a lot of Whirligigs, I could select out some Extreme Roll type zinnias. I grew several hundred Whirligigs this Summer, and didn't find anything like the Extreme Rolls. I'll grow a lot of Whirligigs next year, because I like the narrow petaled ones like in the picture above. The narrow-petaled Whirligigs could be selected out, in various color combinations, as a sort of "sub-strain" of zinnias. But the Whirligigs can't compete in "extremeness" with JG's Extreme Rolls.

ZM

It seems that you are going to have a large population of toothy flowers in the coming months. You said once you thought that toothiness was a recessive trait. Do you find that 100% of offspring from toothy parents are toothy as well?

I'm tempted to give a few of my flowers the Bayer All-in-One treatment, but will shield the flowers from use by the butterflies, bees, and hummingbirds to prevent them being effected by that product.

I took a few close-up pictures of my Extreme Roll zinnias.

You can see how easily the disc flowers are self-pollinating.

All of the newly forming petals are covered with tiny water droplets in the late afternoon/early evening.

You can get a close look at the chaffy scales in the center and some of the stigmas.

I've found that sometimes individual stamen structures are rolled up in the new petals.

JG

Those are some impressive macro photos, with high magnifications that seem to show individual pollen grains. Did you take those with your Canon?

"Do you find that 100% of offspring from toothy parents are toothy as well?"

It appears to be about 50%, which compared to the scabious ratio of maybe 5%, is pretty good. There seem to be about 4 levels of toothiness so far, with the most yet being the "Spider Toothy". I think at least two different genes must be involved, and possibly more. Some toothy specimens are hopelessly skinny and weak little seedlings that don't survive, so there must be a related recessive that is nearly lethal. As I get more experience with toothy zinnias next year, perhaps more understanding of the trait will be evident. I think there is a lot of room for improvement in the toothies. I have made a few toothy x bugle crosses. Who knows what will come of that? More later.

ZM

It's been busy for me today, collecting and sorting seeds. Most of my zinnias are three to four feet tall now and although the garden is full of color, the mildew is creeping up through the areas where it is shady in the late afternoon.

I have one plant that has been consistently putting out large daisy pinwheel-type flowers--kind of interesting:

Also, I have some large beige-pink flowers that make a bouquet look nice with the unusual color. The plant has produced many of these flowers so far this summer. You can see how the leaves on that plant has mildew.

Your toothy flowers are pretty, and something I have never seen to that extent in zinnias--a new form! I can't imagine how a tubular, toothy petaled flower might look!

JG

JG,

Someday we may be breeding single zinnias, because they can look good. I normally discard them, but my Spider Toothy was too unusual to hold its near singleness against it. Some single Whirligigs look great.

Your large beige-pink looks like a definite breeder. It is very double and deep. And large. This is a picture of one of my current breeder aster flowered zinnias.

Those two blooms happened to be close together, but it has several blooms in addition to the original center main bloom, which is now senescent. I should save seeds from it soon. More later. I, too, have been busy saving seeds.

ZM

Your aster-flowered zinnias look wonderful! I like the lighter centers that they have, too. You have an interesting mix of long, flat petals with an arrangement that is usually seen in cactus zinnias.

I have a shaggy zinnia (actually several plants that have the cascading petals, but they are very crinkled!

Then, I still grow the cousins (that share the original Extreme Roll grandparent) of my F2 Extreme Rolls. They are not outstanding but look somewhat different than the average zinnia. I will probably make a dedicated bed for seeds of these next year.

JG

JG,

Your shaggy is deeper than it is wide, so that is pretty unique, and worthy of saving seeds from. For some reason none of my shaggy progeny equaled the parent, but I still have some seeds from the original Pink Shaggy Dog (code name D10) to grow next year. And several of its progeny were somewhat like the maternal parent, and I will save seed from them as well. Apparently the shaggy dog trait will not be as easy to stabilize as the toothy trait is.

The cousins of your Extreme Roll look like a likely group to save seeds from, because they are somewhat different from what you would get out of a seed packet. I like being able to grow zinnias that you couldn't get from a commercial seed packet, and we are both enjoying that privilege.

Sometimes I am slow to recognize a potentially good and different zinnia trait, and just a couple of days ago it dawned on me that a zinnia I had been neglecting actually had a very unusual plant. Although it has complex ancestry, it flowers were fairly uninspiring medium sized semi-cactus orange blooms. But I realized that it was different from all the rest of my zinnias, with a shrub-like plant.

That is actually just a detail of the whole plant, but it shows the unique nature of the individual branches, which rise from a sprawling plant, with a preponderance of leaves. The stems of the blooms are very short, so it would have no value as a cut flower, but its plant habit could be useful in some landscaping applications. I just gave it breeder status and hope to get a decent seed yield from it. I'm not certain that its shrub plant is genetic, so I won't know until next year if I really have something in it. But if its plant habit is transmissible, it could lead to zinnia plants that go a step beyond the lower bush-like Burpeeana style plant habit. More later. We are in the midst of another hot spell.

ZM

That last plant you showed really is unusual with the densely packed leaves. It looks like there is a lot of branching, too. I wouldn't be surprised if it has a genetic trait for short internodes. You'll find out in time when you grow up the offspring-- I guess you will be selfing it. Does it seem to have more flower buds as well?

We got the high temperatures once again that you have been experiencing. I don't think I have ever lived through such a hot summer with the unrelenting heat. It is a killer for our plants and gardens!

I only have the two plants that I showed you before that have the more seldom seen foliage. They continue to show those characteristics of white-, the red-pigmmented leaves. I'll save seed to see if what they show is genetic.

JG
=

JG,

"I guess you will be selfing it. Does it seem to have more flower buds as well?"

It had several mature flower heads at the time I realized it was special a few days ago. I gathered those heads for seeds, and hopefully some selfed seeds are in there. There is probably some bee pollination in play with them. There are several fresh flowers now that have had very little pollen of their own. Today I applied some Bugle pollen on them. The Bugle is becoming senescent and is producing very little pollen, so I will concentrate on selfing and "upgrading" the shrub zinnia. And I will spread its pollen around, as it becomes available.

This recombinant has a conventional upright bush, but it is unique because it is my largest flowered scabiosa type. It is basically a fairly conventional dahlia flowered zinnia with scabiosa-type florets.

Almost all of the petals on that plant were pollinated with Bugle. I wanted to cross it onto a number of other scabious types, and at first felt thwarted because it wasn't producing any pollen. Then I remembered the anther-bundle technique, picked a floret, tore it open, and sure enough, there was a fat anther bundle laden with pollen. So I rubbed the anther bundle itself on the stigmas of target female zinnias. I'll be using that technique to spread its pollen around. And I will try that technique on some of my other scabious recombinants that lack conventional pollen florets. More later. Cooler weather is on the way.

ZM

I'm excited that you can get the scabious florets onto a larger flower! That really does set you up for a promising cross with your Bugles. As it is, I think those larger flowers that you have now are pretty nice, and the plant there has lots of branching, too.

I have been able to cross my Extreme Roll parent with 6 other flowers, and have collected seeds from the first five already. I don't know if I'll see the trait in the first generation of offspring. It may be that I'll have to cross those to see Extreme Rolls in a color other than purple. I must say though that the Extreme Roll plants show plenty of branching, giving me plenty of opportunities for crossing now as long as the flowers hold out. Hope that character goes to the coming generation, too.

We keep missing significant rain, and I think my garden in general is beyond any recovery. The only plants I am watering much are this year's planted perennials and I have also started watering the extreme Roll group. I think we are going to lose some of our younger fruit trees. Supposedly, we will get some rain from Hurrican Lee later this week. At least we have cooler temperatures now!

Here are several flowers currently blooming: a representative of the cactus zinnias I have and one form of Extreme Roll..

JG

JG,

"I'm excited that you can get the scabious florets onto a larger flower! That really does set you up for a promising cross with your Bugles."

I'm excited too. I may have gone a bit overboard pollinating it with Bugle pollen, but now that the Bugle plant has apparently quit producing pollen, I am glad I did. I also pollinated Bugle nearly exclusively onto four other "breeder" plants and I harvested seedheads from them yesterday. I also harvested a couple of Bugle seedheads, although I haven't "shucked" them yet to see if they set any seeds. I won't be surprised if they didn't set seeds, due to Bugle's hidden stigmas with no anther bundles. This is a picture of an individual bloom from the dahlia-scabiosa plant.

Since I have discovered that it has a good source of pollen in the anther bundles in its fresh florets, I have also been crossing it onto other breeders, to upgrade existing scabious recombinants, or to create hybrids with good non-scabious specimens. This is a picture of one of the "target" scabious recombinants for the dahlia-scabiosa pollen.

And this is another such target.

That one has several different floral styles on one plant, and it has been getting an assortment of "upgrade" pollen. It is nearly completely hidden, but there is a nine spotted cucumber beetle in that picture. They aren't usually thought of as pests of zinnias, but they have done significant cosmetic damages to my zinnias this year. That bloom is an example. I haven't sprayed for them, but I kill them manually when I get a chance. Grasshoppers have also done some minor damage, but our grasshoppers are too wary to catch.

Next year promises to be the most interesting zinnia year yet for me, particularly if the Bugle project has any success. The shrub zinnia is also a possibility. It has very little pollen (only 4 florets today--all used for selfing). But I am "upgrading" it also, to assure some seed set. Even if its F1 hybrids don't exhibit the shrub trait, some of the "F2s" might. And I am hoping for a credible seed set of toothy seeds as well. I also want to grow more candidates of spider flowered and aster flowered zinnias next year. The spider flowered project sort of "fell through the crack" this year.

More later. It is now cool, but we too are having dry weather, so I am doing some watering of my zinnias.

ZM

I agree that you are going to have an interesting year in 2012. Those last photos you have shown are really good ones, and the result of the crosses of those flowers will be something to look forward to! I'm glad you showed a close-up of the dahlia-scabiosa hybrid just so we could see how those florets look.

I've got a number of seeds collected -- from flowers with tubular petals, July Bonnet offspring, strap petals, good scabious specimens, very toothy petals, "stacked" petals, red- and white-leaved plants, and X-Roll sibs and cousins, as well as the X-Rolls themselves and crosses that were made
with them. I've got seeds from all the flowers crossing by chance along with those of all of the "species" zinnias.

I haven't made nearly the number of crosses that you have! But once the mildew becomes more widespread in my garden, I will look for plants that may be resistant, using the "species" plants as controls. This is something I had planned to do last year, then got somehow distracted. It would be nice to have an elegans plant that would be mildew-resistant..I wonder if the first place I should look is among the Whirligigs, as they are thought to be hybrids (at least at one time) with the haageana zinnias.

JG

JG,

"It would be nice to have an elegans plant that would be mildew-resistant."

I have always thought that too. Some elegans strains do make some claims of "resistance" or "tolerance". A couple of years ago I grew some tetraploids to see if they were resistant. I had a tetraploid side-by-side with a diploid, and they both got mildew equally bad. I know that is just anecdotal evidence, and way too small a sample size to prove the point scientifically. But that case cast serious doubt in my mind that tetraploidy is the solution to Powdery Mildew in Z. elegans.

"I wonder if the first place I should look is among the Whirligigs, as they are thought to be hybrids (at least at one time) with the haageana zinnias."

Whirligigs are an interestingly varied lot, and as good a place as any to start with. However, haageana may not be the key. The Profusions probably get their PM tolerance from Z. angustifolia, or possibly their radically different genetic structure. I don't know if haageana (Persian Carpet & Jazzy) are mildew resistant. Burpee doesn't make any PM claims for Jazzy. Parks doesn't claim PM resistance for Persian Carpet. However, Thompson Morgan does claim that their Aztec Sunset strain is mildew resistant. I really wonder if that is just a hollow claim. Aztec Sunset are a dwarf zinnia, rated at 12 to 15 inches in height. I grew a few, but didn't notice the presence or absence of mildew resistance in them.

Your quest for mildew resistance in Z. elegans is commendable, and I wouldn't be surprised if you found something. I will "keep an eye out" for any unusual patterns in Powdery Mildew onset on my Fall zinnias. However, I will continue to protect my best breeders from PM with Bayer Advanced All-In-One, or an equivalent. I have a rather unconventional theory about zinnias and Powdery Mildew that I will go into in another message.

This is a picture of one my breeders that recently suffered some bird damage.

It has a number of missing guard petals, mostly on the far side. Birds will go for fat green seeds. I am going to re-address my "hairnets" as protection from birds, hopefully coming up with a wind resistant solution. I don't like the idea of birds feasting on my hand-pollinated seeds. More later. There is quite a bit of Fall work to do in my zinnia patch.

ZM

Any more thought of tc of breeder plants?

I have found a few papers on it, and I think it would be possible to use axillary buds as explant material to multiply select plants.

I also saw some papers detailing embryo rescue with interspecific hybrids. so I thinkn that would be a great experiment too.

That's a nice scabious flower you have shown. You always have some very rich shades of pink and lavender among your zinnias. And, it seems that they fit well with the pastel color scheme you have in your toothy and aster-flowered zinnia strains.

I have one plant whose flowers I've shown before, but it is an interesting Benary-type plant whose flowers start out orange and age to a red (not a seasonal thing, this has been shown through the summer).

I notice that in some of my X-Roll plants there are suggestions of scabious genes judging from the tiny florets I see near the center (not complete florets just petal-type parts).

I have a feeling that with some attention to selection, what we see in other composite flowers can be achieved in zinnias, due to a somewhat similar genetic makeup, as we have been observing.

In the annual scabiosas I have here, for example:

or in the needle-petaled perennial form of rudbeckia, black-eyed susan:

Blurry, but here is a thief, caught in the garden, and why I'd better dedicate more time to seed-saving:

Thus far, I see no mildew in the haageana, tenuifolia, peruviana, or angustifolia zinnias here while the elegans are quickly acquiring more of it.

JG

"Any more thought of tc of breeder plants?"

Definitely. First of all, on my next batch of TC medium, I am going to triple the strength of the BAP. I was using a protocol that is suitable for African Violet leaf parts, and since African Violets will root from leaf cuttings, it probably doesn't take much BAP to get shoots from an African Violet leaf explant.

"I have found a few papers on it, and I think it would be possible to use axillary buds as explant material to multiply select plants."

I agree. I had been using meristems from terminal buds. Axillary buds seems like a good alternative, and there are a lot more of them.

"I also saw some papers detailing embryo rescue with interspecific hybrids, so I think that would be a great experiment too."

It would be a great experiment. Or series of experiments. There are many species of zinnias that haven't been tried yet, because they aren't very ornamental and/or they aren't generally available.

However, I need to concentrate on the basics of zinnia micropropagation by Tissue Culture, so I am going to concentrate on that first. I need to get some success with that before I branch out. I'll keep you posted on my TC efforts. I think TC has exciting potential for zinnia breeding.

ZM

"...it is an interesting Benary-type plant whose flowers start out orange and age to a red (not a seasonal thing, this has been shown through the summer)."

That has breeding potential. The variety Exquisite's claim to fame is its color transitioning trait.

"I have a feeling that with some attention to selection, what we see in other composite flowers can be achieved in zinnias..."

I agree. I think we have just scratched the surface of what zinnias can do with respect to flower form.

"Thus far, I see no mildew in the haageana, tenuifolia, peruviana, or angustifolia zinnias here while the elegans are quickly acquiring more of it."

That is an impressive list. I read somewhere that mildew on zinnias is caused by a specific species of mildew that just affects zinnias. It may be that PM on zinnias affects only Z. elegans. That would explain a lot of things. I'll have to research into just how specific Zinnia Mildew is. More later. It's a beautiful day here.

ZM

Hi all,

I am still very enthusiastic about developing new flowerforms in zinnias, but my recent experiences this year have also renewed my interest in zinnia plant habits. For one thing, in one planting I have several zinnia specimens that are "throwing" side branches that are "threesie" (leaves in threes instead of pairs), although their main stems have the conventional paired leaves and paired side branches layout. I am intercrossing and selfing them.

I am beginning to hope that an "all threesie" zinnia plant is a possibility. By "all threesie", I mean that the main stem would have the 3Z layout and the side branches in threes would themselves have the 3Z layout.

Another thing that has gotten me interested in zinnia plant habits is the "shrub" zinnia specimen that I mentioned a few messages above. This is a recent picture of that shrub zinnia.

The shape of the plant is rather irregular and asymmetric, but, depending on how you choose to measure it, it is up to 5 feet wide. And it has about two dozen blooms open at once. I don't know how much of its plant habit is genetic and how much is environmental, but I am now treating it as a breeder and selfing it as much as possible and "upgrading" it with choice zinnias from all over my current zinnia patch.

As you can see in the picture above, my Fall cleanup has removed nearly all of the zinnia plants in this part of my zinnia patch. They were badly faded or dead. This shrub plant has unusual lasting powers, since it has outlasted nearly all of the zinnias that were set out at the same time it was. And so far, knock on wood, it doesn't have any signs of Powdery Mildew. More later. I hope to grow a lot of seeds from this zinnia "shrub" next year. A threesie shrub would be nice.

ZM

Your shrub zinnia is a breakthrough in form...I hope that is a hereditary mutation! Where does the main stem of that plant go into the ground? Do you know what the parents were?

At a glance, because of the height and color of the flowers, it looks like a Zahara plant, but the flowers are much larger, which is an improvement on that strain. And the branching is incredible!

With the toothy, scabious dahlia, and shaggy dog type zinnias along with this shrub zinnia, you have lots going! If you knew someone in the country where it is hot and sunny year round, it would be interesting to transplant that "shrub" and see just how extensive it could get.

I am not cleaning up my zinnias yet; although great in number, they are looking pretty shabby. But the little disc florets are mercifully left on the flowers by the finches, and I hope that they will continue to attract the butterflies that I like to photograph. I am also helping (just a little) with MonarchWatch's tagging program based at KU.

JG

JG,

"Where does the main stem of that plant go into the ground?"

The main stem goes into the ground pretty near the center of the picture I posted.

"Do you know what the parents were?"

The shrub zinnia's ID code is E13 and its maternal parent was coded C72 and the shrub was planted indoors 22 April 2011. C72 was an echinacea flowered "scabi", as was its maternal parent, C46. The shrub zinnia's male parent must have been some sort of large flowered non-scabious. It's kind of odd that the shrub comes from a long line of scabious specimens. Its main stem and its laterals are all very long -- so long that they can't stand up under their own weight. All of the main stems are lying on the ground unable to support their weight. Most of what you see are the secondary branches emerging from the primary branches. If this thing had a couple more months in which to develop, I suspect that those secondary branches would also collapse onto the ground and throw up long tertiary branches. I am not pleased that the thing can't stand under its own weight, so I remain somewhat skeptical as to how its progeny will prove themselves. But E13 does have a very unique plant form.

"With the toothy, scabious dahlia, and shaggy dog type zinnias along with this shrub zinnia, you have lots going!"

Grin. And don't forget the Bugle zinnia (E2). I spent nearly an hour today applying Bugle pollen to The Shrub because E13 didn't put out any pollen florets of its own today.

This recent toothy bloom had an interesting recurved petal form.

It wasn't wilting -- it was just holding its petals that way. It has since straightened out its petals some, but they are still recurved. I am doing a lot of toothy-to-toothy crossing in order to hopefully build up a supply of seeds for a larger toothy planting next year. But I am using some toothy pollen on other breeders, and I have been crossing some non-toothy pollen onto toothies. One toothy has been getting some Bugle pollen.

"If you knew someone in the country where it is hot and sunny year round, it would be interesting to transplant that "shrub" and see just how extensive it could get."

That would be interesting. I think there is actually at least one zinnia species that is a shrub in the wild. More later. Our nights are getting too cold for comfort. It was 46 last night, with 48 predicted for tonight. There were frost warnings not too far north of here for last night.

ZM

It's been awhile since I've posted...a busy time, but also, I don't have much left to post in the way of pictures! So, I can't contribute much until next year when the 2012 garden starts! It's not been a good season here..there was way too little water and too much sun in the absence of it!

I want to follow your indoor garden as it grows, so please post the results of some of the really interesting crosses you have made. I think your toothy strain is pretty well established and your aster looking flowers are very nice. The Bugle and scabious crosses should be interesting. Is your "shrub" still outside and growing?

JG

JG,

"Is your "shrub" still outside and growing?"

It is, and it is maintaining its health despite the low temperatures we have been having. It is downright chilly here at night, with temps in the 40's or low 50's. This picture was taken today.

It has been having very little or no pollen of late, and I have been using what pollen it does produce on itself to self some stigmas. I am also pollinating it with choicer zinnias from all over my shrinking zinnia patch. Here is another picture of it, also taken today, but from a different angle. Incidentally, its code name is "E13".

I am going to be paying a lot more attention to zinnia plant habit next year. This is a breeder that has a fairly horizontal plant habit, although not nearly as extreme as E13. It is the one in the foreground, and its codename is E18.

It produces a little more pollen than E13, and I have used some of its pollen on E13. Both have received a fairly steady supply of Bugle (E2) pollen.

"I don't have much left to post in the way of pictures! So, I can't contribute much until next year when the 2012 garden starts!"

The outdoor season is really winding down here, as well. I am continuing with some Fall cleanup, and some end game pollinating. I have been saving green seeds to keep them away from the birds. I was concerned that the "shrub" might be a sterile triploid, but I have obtained enough apparently viable green seeds from it to encourage me that it might eventually have a fairly big seed yield.

The crosses with the Bugle onto several different breeders have also yielded a significant number of apparently good green seeds. Apparently the Bugle is a good "daddy".

I do plan to trial several of my more interesting crosses indoors this Winter. I will report on that as it progresses. I fully understand why you don't have any more pictures to post until next season. I have pretty much run out of anything new myself, as you can see. But I hope that you and others will continue to participate verbally in this off-season time. Winter is more a time for planning and strategizing for a better garden next Spring, and that activity can itself be enjoyable.

ZM

The off season would be a good time to practice your tc skills.

You could use some seed as starting material. mix in 10% clorox for 15 min or so, then maybe some time in 70% ethanol, then triple rinse in sterile water and plate.

"The off season would be a good time to practice your tc skills. You could use some seed as starting material."

That is a good idea. I have some odd small zinnia seeds (I refer to them in my mind as "micro seeds") that might not make it on their own, and they would be good candidates for TC experimentation. I plan to put them in one of those little devices for holding loose tea leaves to make a cup of tea, and just dunk them in the disinfecting solution as if I were making a cup of tea with them. And then rinse them off in the same device.

ZM

"If you are interested in participating, please e-mail me..."

I emailed you earlier today, asking for more details. It sounds like an interesting project. Other forum participants, like jackier_gardener for example, might wish to participate as well. There have been several participants in previous parts of this message series who have been interested in zinnias and plant breeding. And it isn't very active at the moment, but you might want to post your message in GardenWeb's Hybridizing forum.

ZM

This message thread has passed the 100 mark, and is understandably somewhat slow to load, so I am continuing it over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 17 for a "fresh" start.

I look forward to seeing you all over there.

ZM