ZM,

The last two scabious flowers that you showed are both interesting--the one with the butterscotch color and curly petals is pretty, and the other with the tubular ray florets is different. The latter would have definitely been a good candidate for crossing with your red tubular flowers! Certainly offspring of it would be a good choice, too. It seems that both toothiness and tubes may originate with the scabious zinnias. I suspect that the Whirligigs may get many of their characteristics from scabious zinnias, too! It would be nice to get some size into the tubular flowers...if they could be tubular yet serrated on the edges like some of the scabious florets, and larger, what a flower that would be!

I have a scabious flower starting to bloom somewhat like one you had shown previously.

{{gwi:19182}}

And, I had shown a tubular flower earlier and now a second flower has come out on the same plant. The petals look tubular, and take the form, but are not completely sealed off.

{{gwi:19183}}

Here is a different form of a cactus flower:

{{gwi:19184}}

This little flower below had just produced ray florets, then many disc florets in succession. Then things changed and it put out a few more ray florets.

{{gwi:19185}}

And, finally, this is another Extreme Roll sib. I like the shape of its petals, and I have a number of others with similar flowers that are X-Roll cousins, that I may start a line of.

{{gwi:19186}}

JG

JG,

"I have a scabious flower starting to bloom somewhat like one you had shown previously."

Yes, that's a definite scabious hybrid or recombinant. I have referred to them at times as "echinacea flowered".

"The petals look tubular, and take the form, but are not completely sealed off."

That one is very interesting, and looks pretty good, too. It's interesting that it is significantly different from the original bloom on the same plant. That seems to be a recurrent theme with zinnias -- that one branch can differ significantly from another. I would give that one full breeder status and, if it doesn't put out any pollen to self it with, then I would cross "likely" pollen onto it.

"Here is a different form of a cactus flower:"

I have seen a few similar to it, although probably none with as much recurve to their petals. Could be another interesting strain.

"This little flower below had just produced ray florets, then many disc florets in succession. Then things changed and it put out a few more ray florets."

I wonder if that is genetic or simply environmental. I routinely cull my singles, although some look pretty good. The Spider Toothy is actually a single, but I have given it breeder status based on its petal formation.

"And, finally, this is another Extreme Roll sib. I like the shape of its petals, and I have a number of others with similar flowers that are X-Roll cousins, that I may start a line of."

By all means, do that. Those sharp pointed petals have a unique look.

"It seems that both toothiness and tubes may originate with the scabious zinnias."

The scabious do indeed have both of those traits in many specimens.

"I suspect that the Whirligigs may get many of their characteristics from scabious zinnias, too!"

Perhaps, but I have always thought of Whirligigs as their own source of traits. I have seen a lot of toothy or semi-toothy Whirligigs. I think that Whirligigs include Zinnia haageana in their distant ancestors, and get their bicolor and tricolor coloration from that source. But I have to admit complete ignorance about the origin of the scabiosa flowered zinnias. I remember that decades ago there was a commercial strain of large scabious zinnias called "Howard's Crested". Yet another unfortunately extinct zinnia strain.

"It would be nice to get some size into the tubular flowers...if they could be tubular yet serrated on the edges like some of the scabious florets, and larger, what a flower that would be!"

Indeed. That would be a great new zinnia flower form, and I hope to make some progress in that direction next year. I think your Extreme Rolls would look great with toothy petal endings. In one way, that second zinnia you pictured has some petal structure in common with your Extreme Rolls. Young toothy blooms tend to look nice, even when they aren't very toothy.

{{gwi:19187}}
Extreme Rolls with toothy petals could be a big improvement on that. A zinnia with huge scabious florets could be another good flower form. I have no idea what role, if any, the Bugle mutant can play in that. I am pollinating several of my newly blooming specimens with Bugle pollen, like this one.

{{gwi:19188}}
It has large petals and big stigmas, which could combine well with the Bugle tubular petals. I am trying a "shotgun" approach with the Bugle pollen, applying it to a variety of zinnia females. Next year, and even this Winter indoors, should be interesting.

ZM

ZM,

I look forward to the results of your Bugle crosses. I am wondering what the inheritance pattern of those Bugles will be! That last magenta flower is a bright one!

We finally got a cool day today, although the rain passed us over by a few miles yesterday. Finally my Extreme Rolls began to shed pollen, so I made some crosses. I would
like to get brighter flowers while retainng the form.

For the most part, I am selecting newly blooming flowers to pollinate, that hopefully haven't been pollinated yet by natural means. The first two are red cousins of the Extreme Rolls, chosen for color as well as the inbreeding potential in order to regain the form in the F1s.

The next flower is a more mature flower on the same plant as the younger flower I actually pollinated, while the next red flower was the one pollinated.

{{gwi:19189}}

{{gwi:19190}}

A younger flower on the same plant as this flower was pollinated:

{{gwi:19191}}

Then to check the inheritance of the Extreme Roll color, I pollinated a younger flower on the same plant as this flower;

{{gwi:19192}}

Finally, I pollinated this semi-tubular flower. I don't know if it may be too late for this one.

{{gwi:19183}}

Anyway, I will repeat this process with all of the flowers over a week or so, to make sure I get the timing right (I'm pretty sure some were not in the best receptive state today).

Hopefully there will be pollen to use!

JG

JG,

Your first picture has a remarkable bright color combination. I think that magenta of my picture was exaggerated a bit by our camera's sensor. It seems to make reds and purples brighter than in nature. I probably should have "toned it down a bit" in post processing. I thought of it as a medium purple while I was pollinating it. Its older petals are now fading a bit in the sun.

Your second picture has nicely unusual petal shapes. Your third could be a Candy Mix. White is an interesting "color". It is probably not an organic dye like many of the zinnia pigments. My guess is that white is a structural color. I'm hoping you get some seeds from that last one. I think it has potential to produce something very interesting.

"For the most part, I am selecting newly blooming flowers to pollinate, that hopefully haven't been pollinated yet by natural means."

I'm doing pretty much the same thing, using some of my new blooming plants. This purple recombinant has been receiving Bugle pollen. I did de-saturate its color slightly for a more realistic appearance.

{{gwi:19193}}
At first I thought that a spider or something had made a nest with its newly emerging petals, but as it has developed since I took the picture, that is just its natural way of "presenting" its new petals. I like its "open" spaced petals, but I have no idea how that will combine with the Bugle flower form. This is another new zinnia that has been receiving Bugle pollen.

{{gwi:19194}}
It has a nicely large informal flower and a Burpeeana-style lower bushy plant. I hope to get a variety of Bugle crosses so that I can inter-cross them to get a wide range of recombination in the subsequent generation. More later. Today was cooler and I got quite a bit of pollination done.

ZM

ZM,

That's interesting the way the purple flower is opening. I wonder if all the flowers will open the same way on that plant? I like the orange cactus, too, especially the way that the petals are uneven in length. The colors on both are nice. I hope the Bugle form is seen in your crosses! It will be interesting to see what flowers (and their genes) will be influenced by the Bugle.

As I collect seeds this year, I see that I am getting far fewer than usual. I think that the heat and dryness had a huge inpact on the fertility of the flowers. We also lost our bees due to wax moths last fall so that may be making a difference, too.

Finally temperatures have dropped and things may pick up now with seed production as well as general health of the plants.

Below are two scabious recombinants.

{{gwi:19195}}

{{gwi:19197}}

JG

JG,

You have done rather well in the scabious department. I was disappointed with my scabious appearances, mainly because my big planting of Candy Mix produced essentially nothing usable. I'll probably plant the rest of those seeds in a bed next year, quite closely spaced, anticipating a very high cull rate. This is one of my scabious recombinants that I am using as a breeder.

{{gwi:19199}}
It apparently has some Whirligig heritage. I have used both Bugle and Toothy pollen on it. Its guard petals have a trace of "toothiness". I haven't saved any seeds yet (I should start) but I have begun an early Fall cleanup. More later. Our nighttime temperature has been in the 60s a couple of times recently, which feels like Fall in the early morning.

ZM

ZM,

You have some nice scabious recombinants, too. I think we will both be better off keeping up our own lines of scabious zinnias, rather than relying on the seed companies for seeds. I bet not too many folks buy scabious seeds so companies feel they can slack up on the quality control.

The orange flower you show is pretty. The disc florets are very toothy!

I mentioned earlier than a good number of my seeds are yellow this year. When you start harvesting seeds, let me know if you see any of these. I'm hoping the color is not linked to poor viability.

Every year I have plants whose flowers have upturned petals. I am convinced that this trait is heritary, but don't how it could be used to create a new strain. As they are, they are hardly attractive!

{{gwi:19201}}

I like flowers where the reverse sides of the petals are pure white. I have a number of those.

{{gwi:19202}}

Earlier I showed a flowers whose pink petals were being bleached white by the sun. I also have a plants whose light-colored petals age to a dark pink color.

{{gwi:19203}}

JG

JG,

Your observation about white petal backsides is most significant. I think I have seen it only twice in the last several years, and both times it was on a purple zinnia. I think it would be really great to get the backsides of all of my zinnias to be white. I'll have to be on the watch for "white backs" and give them special breeder attention.

I have seen a few of the upturned petals, and I am also not attracted by their look. One had broader petals, and it had a kind of tulip effect, but I am not going after tulip flowered zinnias as a strain. It could be done, though.

I am continuing to pollinate toothy zinnias with other toothy zinnias, in order to hopefully build up my seed supply of them. This is another female toothy bloom.

{{gwi:19204}}
I think the key to getting some really good toothies is to grow a large number of them and self and intercross the best specimens. I have a feeling, although I am not certain of it, that toothiness is at least partially recessive.

I have seen zinnias with light-colored petals that age darker, but none quite so dramatically as your specimen. Ironically, all of my really dark colored zinnias age lighter.

I agree with you about our maintaining our own stocks of scabious zinnias, although I would like to get some "new blood" too, so I will grow some commercial scabious zinnias next year, but plant them close in anticipation of a high cull rate. I have noticed that some of my scabious recombinants tend to have missing guard petals, like this one.

{{gwi:19205}}
It looks sort of like a kid with missing teeth, and I was concerned that this is a bad genetic trait. But then I remembered another incident over on Dave's Garden in which a participant showed a picture (also non too detailed) of a scabiosa flowered zinnia with no guard petals at all. The floret-only flowers looked quite unique. I persuaded her to send me some seedheads, but it turned out that they had no viable seed. But I was impressed by the unique look of that picture. So I think I will go after a strain of "scabis" without guard petals. And toward that end, I won't cull my scabis with missing teeth, in the hope that some of their progeny might have no teeth at all.

It seems that my "wish list" for zinnias continues to grow. And now you have added white-backed petals to that list. All these breeding goals just add interest to next year's zinnia plantings. I think next year will be an interesting zinnia year. I hope that the commercial people will come out with some interesting new zinnia varieties next year.

ZM

ZM,

The pink toothy flower is pretty, and although toothy, also looks like it has some "Shaggy Dog" genes in it! The shade of pink is good, too.

I also have had a number of scabious flowers with missing petals. Now at this time, I'm never sure as the birds are swiping seeds as soon as they become ripe and give the flowers that appearance. Earlier in the season I also showed a scabious flower without guard petals, but it wasn't too convincing, as although the disc florets had been maturing and falling away or dropping off, it could have also been that the rays were being broken off. I need to watch for less mature flowers on that plant, given I can once again locate it!

Today I found two mutants in the garden, not too exciting, but here they are:

{{gwi:19206}}

The disc on the above was not circular, but linear. Then, I found a very toothy flower, with many of the petals being split by half the lengths of the petals. It's not totally obvious by the photo, though.

{{gwi:19207}}

I saw a pretty cactus-whirligig recombinant that I liked:

{{gwi:19208}}

We finally got rain in the last 24 hours--about a half an inch, and my zinnias have been quickly taking up the moisture. The flowers look more hydrated and hard to believe, but the plants are quickly also gaining heighth.
We had strong winds followed by rain come through last night, and you probably heard of the big outdoor concert stage that was blown over at the Indiana State Fair.

You mentioned one of the things you would like to obtain in your zinnias are the petals with white on the back. One thing I would like to have is a fragrance in the zinnias, and from time to time I check some of my flowers for that.
So far, I detect no fragrance in the flowers with no disc florets, and a very faint fragrance in the flowers that do have them. That would play a role in attracting the pollinators, no doubt.

There's not much pollen today, but my guess is that there will be plenty tomorrow!

JG

JG,

I've never seen anything like that first zinnia. I don't know if I like it or not, but I might save seeds from it just to see if that configuration is genetic. I don't think this applies to your odd zinnia, but occasionally I will see some strangeness in a zinnia or two caused by Aster Yellows virus. Aster Yellows virus is incurable, so I just remove the whole plant and put it in the trash to go to the landfill. I had a couple of zinnias this Spring take on some really strange flower formations that I interpreted as Asters Yellows, so I discarded them. I think that some insects, like maybe leafhoppers, can transmit the virus. I wonder if it is seed borne. My guess would be that it could be. I doubt that there is any seed treatment you could do that would remove it. I am considering treating the seeds that I start indoors with something like bleach or hydrogen peroxide. I haven't worked out the details of that. But if I can prevent some seed-borne stuff, I would like to do that.

I, too, sniff zinnias from time to time. Occasionally I detect a very slight fragrance. If any of us find a fragrant zinnia mutant, I hope we catch it and save seeds from it. I think that some of my zinnias put out a lot more nectar than normal, but I'm not sure that I like that trait. The extra nectar usually attracts a lot of little ants, who feed on it, I guess.

"We had strong winds followed by rain come through last night, and you probably heard of the big outdoor concert stage that was blown over at the Indiana State Fair."

Yes, I saw some dramatic footage of that on TV. Tragic fatalities and injuries. That structure looked kind of jury-rigged from scaffolding, and top heavy. My guess is that the next structures of that sort will be inspected using more stringent safety standards. And lawsuits with significant settlements will probably result from that tragedy.

Occasionally I take a picture of a zinnia that I like more for the qualities of the picture than the zinnia itself. This is one such picture.

{{gwi:19209}}
That bloom is young and unblemished by age and it has delicate pastel coloration. This is another such picture.

{{gwi:19210}}
It has delicate yellow petal textures that I like. My work with our Kodak point-and-shoot is pretty much hit or miss, but occasionally I get something that I like. I'm going to be extra busy for the next few days, so my next response may be a bit delayed. But I will return. So, more later.

ZM

ZM,

Those last two pictures are very nice, highlighting the pastel colors and the details of the flowers, right down to the chaffy scales. You ought to frame them, or even make a collage of the photos you like the best. I usually take pictures with my Sony Cybershot, but I have a Canon that I'm not quite comfortable working with yet. It is easily affected by any shaking despite the stabilizer that it has. I would be happy to get the sorts of pictures you have been showing on this forum!

I haven't seen the scabious plant with the lack of guard petals on its flowers, but I do have a plant that has little or no petals as seen in its flowers today:

{{gwi:19211}}{{gwi:19213}}

Here are new flowers on plants whose prior flowers I've shown earlier:

{{gwi:19214}}{{gwi:19215}}

I am saving seeds of both. I really hope I can get a duplication of the purple flower, but I have my doubts!

I am glad you told me about the virus. Occasionally I will see a stunted or misformed plant, and probably I should destroy it...it's good to be aware of the diseases that can infect the zinnias.

JG

ZM,

We've has some very nice weather lately, and the flowers are starting to look better with the rain in the past week.
And, the butterflies are starting to visit in greater numbers.

{{gwi:19216}}

JG

ZM,

The zinnias are popular with the hummingbirds, too.

{{gwi:19217}}

JG

Hi JG,

Well, I'm back, sort of. Still swamped with a lot of yard work to do. A recent windstorm brought down a large tree limb, and I still have some work to do to take it apart and put it through my shredder-chipper. Some of it may be firewood. That tree is still sort of scary, because it seems that its remaining structure is none too sound. I may have some chainsaw work to do.

That zinnia without petals looks very interesting. I would be curious to see how it develops. That light purple marbled-striped zinnia looks quite promising. It has a kind of striping that looks attractive to me. I have seen a similar effect on some Whirligig mutants, except that they had very weird blooms, while yours is reasonably conventional.

I took this picture today of a new member of my growing clan of toothy zinnias.

{{gwi:19219}}
I am cautiously optimistic about going a long way toward getting a strain of toothy zinnias next year. It seems that nearly half of the toothy x toothy crosses produce recombinant toothies. That's a much better yield than scabious crosses produce for me.

That's an amazing photo of the hummingbird and zinnia. I haven't had much luck stopping their motion. We have a lot of hummingbirds and butterflies in our zinnias, but I've been too busy to concentrate on trying to photograph them. We did get a decent rain last night and the night before.

What model of Canon do you have? I have seen some fantastic nature pictures from Canon digital SLRs posted on photographic websites -- pictures far better than any I can get from our old Kodak Z712 IS. More later. Thanks for keeping things going in my absence.

ZM

JG,

Correction: That tree is still sort of scary, because it seems that its remaining structure is none too sound.

ZM

JG,

Correction to the correction: That tree is still sort of scary, because it seems that its remaining structure is none too sound.

ZM

JG,

This is weird. I double checked the preview this time, and that last message was correct in the Preview. Now I am suspecting it was correct in the previous message as well. I will just sneak in what I was trying to say originally, and in the correction, and in the correction to the correction.

That tree is still sort of scary, because it seems that its remaining structure is none too sound.

If that "none" doesn't come through this time, I give up.

ZM

JG,

OK. I do give up. This forum software is removing the word that is spelled n o n e from my submitted messages. Weird. That seems to be a bug in the forum software. I will rephrase the sentence in a way intended as a workaround to defeat that bug in the forum software.

That tree is still sort of scary, because it seems that its remaining structure is not very strong.

ZM

ZM,

It looks like you got caught up in a tech twilight zone trying to get a sentence written! Well, you had a good excuse...I make those mistakes all on my own due to no training ever in typing or keyboarding along with a real talent in proofreading where I see what I want to see rather than see what is really there.
It seems like you have gone far in creating a strain of toothy zinnias. They are different than anything than is out there...that is for sure, and they are pretty. That last one you showed looks like it could be partly tubular, although it may be that it is opening up that way, as I've noticed some flowers do. Anyway, it's really nice and I think you have a consistant expression of that trait among your plants!

I pretty much finished my crosses with the four plants I mentioned earlier with Extreme Roll plants---the stigmas that were coming on in those four plants looked curled...possibly already pollinated by wind, or unhealthy. So, I started crossing with a new flower from the same plant as that below, as it had lots of stigmas and looked easier to pollinate. I think many of the seeds have already started to form.

{{gwi:19163}}

I have a number of Extreme Roll F2s, but the flowers of each plant definitely show varaition, as I have shown before.

{{gwi:19221}}{{gwi:19223}}

{{gwi:19225}}

I have been using plants with flowers like the last flower I showed here as parents in my crosses as they are the most extreme.

The new camera that I have is a Canon EOS Rebel T2i. As I said, I still have real trouble getting a good depth of field with close-up shots and I find it difficult to hold still when the shutter speed is slower (never had that difficulty with the Sony--maybe I just have to learn how to hold this new camera). So far, the advantages are that it is very fast compared to my other camera, and has a better balance of light in the pictures I take.

Good luck with the tree--hope you don't have to take the whole thing down!

JG

Interesting fella:

{{gwi:19227}}

JG,

I am sure that once you get through the learning curve with your Canon T2i that you will get some really good pictures. I have noticed that I have more depth of field when the zoom lens is in the wide angle range. But I usually like to throw the background out of focus, so I frequently photograph toward the telephoto end of the zoom range. I have a monopod, but haven't used it so far. I must make a mental note to try that the next time I take a few pictures.

That last Extreme Roll specimen is spectacular! You really have something there, with breakthrough narrow petals. There is potential there for a whole new flowerform in zinnias.

Another toothy specimen joined the ranks of my toothy crowd.

{{gwi:19229}}
I am doing a lot of inter-crossing between various toothy specimens, with the hope of getting still more variations in that flower form. I figure that the more seedstock, the better are the chances for getting good specimens. I plan to expand my garden again next year.

Today I treated several of my breeders with Bayer Advanced All-In-One to hopefully give them resistance to the insects and diseases that seem to be a problem in the Fall. Some kind of little worm has damaged a few zinnia heads. I haven't seen any mildew yet, but as the days shorten and the climate cools, problems are bound to occur. More later. We were under a heat advisory again today, and also tomorrow.

ZM

eicher,

It would be interesting to know if the seeds saved from the red side would produce solid red flowers, and if the seeds saved from the striped side would produce striped progeny.

ZM

Zenman, totally true what you said about JG's las pic. Never seen anything like it. It would be awesome to be able to grow a variety of zinnia's like that.

And I wish I could tell you what the seeds produced, but I pressed that zinnia so I could keep it...

eicher,

The Peppermint Stick and Candy Cane zinnias have "broken" color patterns of dots, streaks, and stripes. Occasionally you will see a "half and half" bloom like the one you pictured. My guess is that the red petals would produce pure red zinnias, but I could be wrong about that.

That last pic of JG's has an even more extreme roll than her "Extreme Roll" specimens. Those petals look almost like pine needles. Some Whirligigs have narrow petals right out of the seed packet, like this one.

{{gwi:19230}}
For that reason, I thought that if I grew a lot of Whirligigs, I could select out some Extreme Roll type zinnias. I grew several hundred Whirligigs this Summer, and didn't find anything like the Extreme Rolls. I'll grow a lot of Whirligigs next year, because I like the narrow petaled ones like in the picture above. The narrow-petaled Whirligigs could be selected out, in various color combinations, as a sort of "sub-strain" of zinnias. But the Whirligigs can't compete in "extremeness" with JG's Extreme Rolls.

ZM

ZM,

It seems that you are going to have a large population of toothy flowers in the coming months. You said once you thought that toothiness was a recessive trait. Do you find that 100% of offspring from toothy parents are toothy as well?

I'm tempted to give a few of my flowers the Bayer All-in-One treatment, but will shield the flowers from use by the butterflies, bees, and hummingbirds to prevent them being effected by that product.

I took a few close-up pictures of my Extreme Roll zinnias.

You can see how easily the disc flowers are self-pollinating.

{{gwi:19232}}

All of the newly forming petals are covered with tiny water droplets in the late afternoon/early evening.

{{gwi:19234}}

You can get a close look at the chaffy scales in the center and some of the stigmas.

{{gwi:19236}}

I've found that sometimes individual stamen structures are rolled up in the new petals.

{{gwi:19238}}

JG

JG,

Those are some impressive macro photos, with high magnifications that seem to show individual pollen grains. Did you take those with your Canon?

"Do you find that 100% of offspring from toothy parents are toothy as well?"

It appears to be about 50%, which compared to the scabious ratio of maybe 5%, is pretty good. There seem to be about 4 levels of toothiness so far, with the most yet being the "Spider Toothy". I think at least two different genes must be involved, and possibly more. Some toothy specimens are hopelessly skinny and weak little seedlings that don't survive, so there must be a related recessive that is nearly lethal. As I get more experience with toothy zinnias next year, perhaps more understanding of the trait will be evident. I think there is a lot of room for improvement in the toothies. I have made a few toothy x bugle crosses. Who knows what will come of that? More later.

ZM

ZM,

It's been busy for me today, collecting and sorting seeds. Most of my zinnias are three to four feet tall now and although the garden is full of color, the mildew is creeping up through the areas where it is shady in the late afternoon.

I have one plant that has been consistently putting out large daisy pinwheel-type flowers--kind of interesting:

{{gwi:19240}}

Also, I have some large beige-pink flowers that make a bouquet look nice with the unusual color. The plant has produced many of these flowers so far this summer. You can see how the leaves on that plant has mildew.

{{gwi:19242}}

Your toothy flowers are pretty, and something I have never seen to that extent in zinnias--a new form! I can't imagine how a tubular, toothy petaled flower might look!

JG

JG,

Someday we may be breeding single zinnias, because they can look good. I normally discard them, but my Spider Toothy was too unusual to hold its near singleness against it. Some single Whirligigs look great.

Your large beige-pink looks like a definite breeder. It is very double and deep. And large. This is a picture of one of my current breeder aster flowered zinnias.

{{gwi:19244}}
Those two blooms happened to be close together, but it has several blooms in addition to the original center main bloom, which is now senescent. I should save seeds from it soon. More later. I, too, have been busy saving seeds.

ZM

ZM,

Your aster-flowered zinnias look wonderful! I like the lighter centers that they have, too. You have an interesting mix of long, flat petals with an arrangement that is usually seen in cactus zinnias.

I have a shaggy zinnia (actually several plants that have the cascading petals, but they are very crinkled!

{{gwi:19246}}

Then, I still grow the cousins (that share the original Extreme Roll grandparent) of my F2 Extreme Rolls. They are not outstanding but look somewhat different than the average zinnia. I will probably make a dedicated bed for seeds of these next year.

{{gwi:19248}}{{gwi:19251}}{{gwi:19254}}

{{gwi:19257}}{{gwi:19260}}

JG

JG,

Your shaggy is deeper than it is wide, so that is pretty unique, and worthy of saving seeds from. For some reason none of my shaggy progeny equaled the parent, but I still have some seeds from the original Pink Shaggy Dog (code name D10) to grow next year. And several of its progeny were somewhat like the maternal parent, and I will save seed from them as well. Apparently the shaggy dog trait will not be as easy to stabilize as the toothy trait is.

The cousins of your Extreme Roll look like a likely group to save seeds from, because they are somewhat different from what you would get out of a seed packet. I like being able to grow zinnias that you couldn't get from a commercial seed packet, and we are both enjoying that privilege.

Sometimes I am slow to recognize a potentially good and different zinnia trait, and just a couple of days ago it dawned on me that a zinnia I had been neglecting actually had a very unusual plant. Although it has complex ancestry, it flowers were fairly uninspiring medium sized semi-cactus orange blooms. But I realized that it was different from all the rest of my zinnias, with a shrub-like plant.

{{gwi:19264}}
That is actually just a detail of the whole plant, but it shows the unique nature of the individual branches, which rise from a sprawling plant, with a preponderance of leaves. The stems of the blooms are very short, so it would have no value as a cut flower, but its plant habit could be useful in some landscaping applications. I just gave it breeder status and hope to get a decent seed yield from it. I'm not certain that its shrub plant is genetic, so I won't know until next year if I really have something in it. But if its plant habit is transmissible, it could lead to zinnia plants that go a step beyond the lower bush-like Burpeeana style plant habit. More later. We are in the midst of another hot spell.

ZM

ZM,

That last plant you showed really is unusual with the densely packed leaves. It looks like there is a lot of branching, too. I wouldn't be surprised if it has a genetic trait for short internodes. You'll find out in time when you grow up the offspring-- I guess you will be selfing it. Does it seem to have more flower buds as well?

We got the high temperatures once again that you have been experiencing. I don't think I have ever lived through such a hot summer with the unrelenting heat. It is a killer for our plants and gardens!

I only have the two plants that I showed you before that have the more seldom seen foliage. They continue to show those characteristics of white-, the red-pigmmented leaves. I'll save seed to see if what they show is genetic.

{{gwi:19266}}{{gwi:19269}}

JG
=

JG,

"I guess you will be selfing it. Does it seem to have more flower buds as well?"

It had several mature flower heads at the time I realized it was special a few days ago. I gathered those heads for seeds, and hopefully some selfed seeds are in there. There is probably some bee pollination in play with them. There are several fresh flowers now that have had very little pollen of their own. Today I applied some Bugle pollen on them. The Bugle is becoming senescent and is producing very little pollen, so I will concentrate on selfing and "upgrading" the shrub zinnia. And I will spread its pollen around, as it becomes available.

This recombinant has a conventional upright bush, but it is unique because it is my largest flowered scabiosa type. It is basically a fairly conventional dahlia flowered zinnia with scabiosa-type florets.

{{gwi:19273}}
Almost all of the petals on that plant were pollinated with Bugle. I wanted to cross it onto a number of other scabious types, and at first felt thwarted because it wasn't producing any pollen. Then I remembered the anther-bundle technique, picked a floret, tore it open, and sure enough, there was a fat anther bundle laden with pollen. So I rubbed the anther bundle itself on the stigmas of target female zinnias. I'll be using that technique to spread its pollen around. And I will try that technique on some of my other scabious recombinants that lack conventional pollen florets. More later. Cooler weather is on the way.

ZM

ZM,

I'm excited that you can get the scabious florets onto a larger flower! That really does set you up for a promising cross with your Bugles. As it is, I think those larger flowers that you have now are pretty nice, and the plant there has lots of branching, too.

I have been able to cross my Extreme Roll parent with 6 other flowers, and have collected seeds from the first five already. I don't know if I'll see the trait in the first generation of offspring. It may be that I'll have to cross those to see Extreme Rolls in a color other than purple. I must say though that the Extreme Roll plants show plenty of branching, giving me plenty of opportunities for crossing now as long as the flowers hold out. Hope that character goes to the coming generation, too.

We keep missing significant rain, and I think my garden in general is beyond any recovery. The only plants I am watering much are this year's planted perennials and I have also started watering the extreme Roll group. I think we are going to lose some of our younger fruit trees. Supposedly, we will get some rain from Hurrican Lee later this week. At least we have cooler temperatures now!

Here are several flowers currently blooming: a representative of the cactus zinnias I have and one form of Extreme Roll..

{{gwi:19276}}{{gwi:19280}}

JG

JG,

"I'm excited that you can get the scabious florets onto a larger flower! That really does set you up for a promising cross with your Bugles."

I'm excited too. I may have gone a bit overboard pollinating it with Bugle pollen, but now that the Bugle plant has apparently quit producing pollen, I am glad I did. I also pollinated Bugle nearly exclusively onto four other "breeder" plants and I harvested seedheads from them yesterday. I also harvested a couple of Bugle seedheads, although I haven't "shucked" them yet to see if they set any seeds. I won't be surprised if they didn't set seeds, due to Bugle's hidden stigmas with no anther bundles. This is a picture of an individual bloom from the dahlia-scabiosa plant.

{{gwi:19284}}
Since I have discovered that it has a good source of pollen in the anther bundles in its fresh florets, I have also been crossing it onto other breeders, to upgrade existing scabious recombinants, or to create hybrids with good non-scabious specimens. This is a picture of one of the "target" scabious recombinants for the dahlia-scabiosa pollen.

{{gwi:19288}}
And this is another such target.

{{gwi:19292}}
That one has several different floral styles on one plant, and it has been getting an assortment of "upgrade" pollen. It is nearly completely hidden, but there is a nine spotted cucumber beetle in that picture. They aren't usually thought of as pests of zinnias, but they have done significant cosmetic damages to my zinnias this year. That bloom is an example. I haven't sprayed for them, but I kill them manually when I get a chance. Grasshoppers have also done some minor damage, but our grasshoppers are too wary to catch.

Next year promises to be the most interesting zinnia year yet for me, particularly if the Bugle project has any success. The shrub zinnia is also a possibility. It has very little pollen (only 4 florets today--all used for selfing). But I am "upgrading" it also, to assure some seed set. Even if its F1 hybrids don't exhibit the shrub trait, some of the "F2s" might. And I am hoping for a credible seed set of toothy seeds as well. I also want to grow more candidates of spider flowered and aster flowered zinnias next year. The spider flowered project sort of "fell through the crack" this year.

More later. It is now cool, but we too are having dry weather, so I am doing some watering of my zinnias.

ZM

ZM,

I agree that you are going to have an interesting year in 2012. Those last photos you have shown are really good ones, and the result of the crosses of those flowers will be something to look forward to! I'm glad you showed a close-up of the dahlia-scabiosa hybrid just so we could see how those florets look.

I've got a number of seeds collected -- from flowers with tubular petals, July Bonnet offspring, strap petals, good scabious specimens, very toothy petals, "stacked" petals, red- and white-leaved plants, and X-Roll sibs and cousins, as well as the X-Rolls themselves and crosses that were made
with them. I've got seeds from all the flowers crossing by chance along with those of all of the "species" zinnias.

I haven't made nearly the number of crosses that you have! But once the mildew becomes more widespread in my garden, I will look for plants that may be resistant, using the "species" plants as controls. This is something I had planned to do last year, then got somehow distracted. It would be nice to have an elegans plant that would be mildew-resistant..I wonder if the first place I should look is among the Whirligigs, as they are thought to be hybrids (at least at one time) with the haageana zinnias.

JG

JG,

"It would be nice to have an elegans plant that would be mildew-resistant."

I have always thought that too. Some elegans strains do make some claims of "resistance" or "tolerance". A couple of years ago I grew some tetraploids to see if they were resistant. I had a tetraploid side-by-side with a diploid, and they both got mildew equally bad. I know that is just anecdotal evidence, and way too small a sample size to prove the point scientifically. But that case cast serious doubt in my mind that tetraploidy is the solution to Powdery Mildew in Z. elegans.

"I wonder if the first place I should look is among the Whirligigs, as they are thought to be hybrids (at least at one time) with the haageana zinnias."

Whirligigs are an interestingly varied lot, and as good a place as any to start with. However, haageana may not be the key. The Profusions probably get their PM tolerance from Z. angustifolia, or possibly their radically different genetic structure. I don't know if haageana (Persian Carpet & Jazzy) are mildew resistant. Burpee doesn't make any PM claims for Jazzy. Parks doesn't claim PM resistance for Persian Carpet. However, Thompson Morgan does claim that their Aztec Sunset strain is mildew resistant. I really wonder if that is just a hollow claim. Aztec Sunset are a dwarf zinnia, rated at 12 to 15 inches in height. I grew a few, but didn't notice the presence or absence of mildew resistance in them.

Your quest for mildew resistance in Z. elegans is commendable, and I wouldn't be surprised if you found something. I will "keep an eye out" for any unusual patterns in Powdery Mildew onset on my Fall zinnias. However, I will continue to protect my best breeders from PM with Bayer Advanced All-In-One, or an equivalent. I have a rather unconventional theory about zinnias and Powdery Mildew that I will go into in another message.

This is a picture of one my breeders that recently suffered some bird damage.

{{gwi:19300}}
It has a number of missing guard petals, mostly on the far side. Birds will go for fat green seeds. I am going to re-address my "hairnets" as protection from birds, hopefully coming up with a wind resistant solution. I don't like the idea of birds feasting on my hand-pollinated seeds. More later. There is quite a bit of Fall work to do in my zinnia patch.

ZM

ZM,

Any more thought of tc of breeder plants?

I have found a few papers on it, and I think it would be possible to use axillary buds as explant material to multiply select plants.

I also saw some papers detailing embryo rescue with interspecific hybrids. so I thinkn that would be a great experiment too.

ZM,

That's a nice scabious flower you have shown. You always have some very rich shades of pink and lavender among your zinnias. And, it seems that they fit well with the pastel color scheme you have in your toothy and aster-flowered zinnia strains.

I have one plant whose flowers I've shown before, but it is an interesting Benary-type plant whose flowers start out orange and age to a red (not a seasonal thing, this has been shown through the summer).
{{gwi:19304}}

I notice that in some of my X-Roll plants there are suggestions of scabious genes judging from the tiny florets I see near the center (not complete florets just petal-type parts).
{{gwi:19309}}

I have a feeling that with some attention to selection, what we see in other composite flowers can be achieved in zinnias, due to a somewhat similar genetic makeup, as we have been observing.

In the annual scabiosas I have here, for example:

{{gwi:19314}}

or in the needle-petaled perennial form of rudbeckia, black-eyed susan:

{{gwi:19317}}

Blurry, but here is a thief, caught in the garden, and why I'd better dedicate more time to seed-saving:

{{gwi:19321}}

Thus far, I see no mildew in the haageana, tenuifolia, peruviana, or angustifolia zinnias here while the elegans are quickly acquiring more of it.

JG

Ryan,

"Any more thought of tc of breeder plants?"

Definitely. First of all, on my next batch of TC medium, I am going to triple the strength of the BAP. I was using a protocol that is suitable for African Violet leaf parts, and since African Violets will root from leaf cuttings, it probably doesn't take much BAP to get shoots from an African Violet leaf explant.

"I have found a few papers on it, and I think it would be possible to use axillary buds as explant material to multiply select plants."

I agree. I had been using meristems from terminal buds. Axillary buds seems like a good alternative, and there are a lot more of them.

"I also saw some papers detailing embryo rescue with interspecific hybrids, so I think that would be a great experiment too."

It would be a great experiment. Or series of experiments. There are many species of zinnias that haven't been tried yet, because they aren't very ornamental and/or they aren't generally available.

However, I need to concentrate on the basics of zinnia micropropagation by Tissue Culture, so I am going to concentrate on that first. I need to get some success with that before I branch out. I'll keep you posted on my TC efforts. I think TC has exciting potential for zinnia breeding.

ZM

JG,

"...it is an interesting Benary-type plant whose flowers start out orange and age to a red (not a seasonal thing, this has been shown through the summer)."

That has breeding potential. The variety Exquisite's claim to fame is its color transitioning trait.

"I have a feeling that with some attention to selection, what we see in other composite flowers can be achieved in zinnias..."

I agree. I think we have just scratched the surface of what zinnias can do with respect to flower form.

"Thus far, I see no mildew in the haageana, tenuifolia, peruviana, or angustifolia zinnias here while the elegans are quickly acquiring more of it."

That is an impressive list. I read somewhere that mildew on zinnias is caused by a specific species of mildew that just affects zinnias. It may be that PM on zinnias affects only Z. elegans. That would explain a lot of things. I'll have to research into just how specific Zinnia Mildew is. More later. It's a beautiful day here.

ZM

Hi all,

I am still very enthusiastic about developing new flowerforms in zinnias, but my recent experiences this year have also renewed my interest in zinnia plant habits. For one thing, in one planting I have several zinnia specimens that are "throwing" side branches that are "threesie" (leaves in threes instead of pairs), although their main stems have the conventional paired leaves and paired side branches layout. I am intercrossing and selfing them.

I am beginning to hope that an "all threesie" zinnia plant is a possibility. By "all threesie", I mean that the main stem would have the 3Z layout and the side branches in threes would themselves have the 3Z layout.

Another thing that has gotten me interested in zinnia plant habits is the "shrub" zinnia specimen that I mentioned a few messages above. This is a recent picture of that shrub zinnia.

{{gwi:19324}}
The shape of the plant is rather irregular and asymmetric, but, depending on how you choose to measure it, it is up to 5 feet wide. And it has about two dozen blooms open at once. I don't know how much of its plant habit is genetic and how much is environmental, but I am now treating it as a breeder and selfing it as much as possible and "upgrading" it with choice zinnias from all over my current zinnia patch.

As you can see in the picture above, my Fall cleanup has removed nearly all of the zinnia plants in this part of my zinnia patch. They were badly faded or dead. This shrub plant has unusual lasting powers, since it has outlasted nearly all of the zinnias that were set out at the same time it was. And so far, knock on wood, it doesn't have any signs of Powdery Mildew. More later. I hope to grow a lot of seeds from this zinnia "shrub" next year. A threesie shrub would be nice.

ZM

ZM,

Your shrub zinnia is a breakthrough in form...I hope that is a hereditary mutation! Where does the main stem of that plant go into the ground? Do you know what the parents were?

At a glance, because of the height and color of the flowers, it looks like a Zahara plant, but the flowers are much larger, which is an improvement on that strain. And the branching is incredible!

With the toothy, scabious dahlia, and shaggy dog type zinnias along with this shrub zinnia, you have lots going! If you knew someone in the country where it is hot and sunny year round, it would be interesting to transplant that "shrub" and see just how extensive it could get.

I am not cleaning up my zinnias yet; although great in number, they are looking pretty shabby. But the little disc florets are mercifully left on the flowers by the finches, and I hope that they will continue to attract the butterflies that I like to photograph. I am also helping (just a little) with MonarchWatch's tagging program based at KU.

JG

JG,

"Where does the main stem of that plant go into the ground?"

The main stem goes into the ground pretty near the center of the picture I posted.

"Do you know what the parents were?"

The shrub zinnia's ID code is E13 and its maternal parent was coded C72 and the shrub was planted indoors 22 April 2011. C72 was an echinacea flowered "scabi", as was its maternal parent, C46. The shrub zinnia's male parent must have been some sort of large flowered non-scabious. It's kind of odd that the shrub comes from a long line of scabious specimens. Its main stem and its laterals are all very long -- so long that they can't stand up under their own weight. All of the main stems are lying on the ground unable to support their weight. Most of what you see are the secondary branches emerging from the primary branches. If this thing had a couple more months in which to develop, I suspect that those secondary branches would also collapse onto the ground and throw up long tertiary branches. I am not pleased that the thing can't stand under its own weight, so I remain somewhat skeptical as to how its progeny will prove themselves. But E13 does have a very unique plant form.

"With the toothy, scabious dahlia, and shaggy dog type zinnias along with this shrub zinnia, you have lots going!"

Grin. And don't forget the Bugle zinnia (E2). I spent nearly an hour today applying Bugle pollen to The Shrub because E13 didn't put out any pollen florets of its own today.

This recent toothy bloom had an interesting recurved petal form.

{{gwi:19326}}
It wasn't wilting -- it was just holding its petals that way. It has since straightened out its petals some, but they are still recurved. I am doing a lot of toothy-to-toothy crossing in order to hopefully build up a supply of seeds for a larger toothy planting next year. But I am using some toothy pollen on other breeders, and I have been crossing some non-toothy pollen onto toothies. One toothy has been getting some Bugle pollen.

"If you knew someone in the country where it is hot and sunny year round, it would be interesting to transplant that "shrub" and see just how extensive it could get."

That would be interesting. I think there is actually at least one zinnia species that is a shrub in the wild. More later. Our nights are getting too cold for comfort. It was 46 last night, with 48 predicted for tonight. There were frost warnings not too far north of here for last night.

ZM

ZM,

It's been awhile since I've posted...a busy time, but also, I don't have much left to post in the way of pictures! So, I can't contribute much until next year when the 2012 garden starts! It's not been a good season here..there was way too little water and too much sun in the absence of it!

I want to follow your indoor garden as it grows, so please post the results of some of the really interesting crosses you have made. I think your toothy strain is pretty well established and your aster looking flowers are very nice. The Bugle and scabious crosses should be interesting. Is your "shrub" still outside and growing?

JG

I have a bit of an odd request. I'm a passionate plant breeder, and am very excited to be working on a book to be published by Timber Press with the working title of Creating New Heirloom, in which I want to explain plant breeding and encourage average gardeners everywhere to try it. In the book, I want to include some short profiles of the passionate people, like all of you, who are creating amazing new plants in their gardens. If you are interested in participating, please e-mail me (especially you, Zenman!) My address is engeizuki at gmail dot com
Thanks in advance!
Joseph Tychonievich

JG,

"Is your "shrub" still outside and growing?"

It is, and it is maintaining its health despite the low temperatures we have been having. It is downright chilly here at night, with temps in the 40's or low 50's. This picture was taken today.

{{gwi:2619}}
It has been having very little or no pollen of late, and I have been using what pollen it does produce on itself to self some stigmas. I am also pollinating it with choicer zinnias from all over my shrinking zinnia patch. Here is another picture of it, also taken today, but from a different angle. Incidentally, its code name is "E13".

{{gwi:19328}}
I am going to be paying a lot more attention to zinnia plant habit next year. This is a breeder that has a fairly horizontal plant habit, although not nearly as extreme as E13. It is the one in the foreground, and its codename is E18.

{{gwi:19331}}
It produces a little more pollen than E13, and I have used some of its pollen on E13. Both have received a fairly steady supply of Bugle (E2) pollen.

"I don't have much left to post in the way of pictures! So, I can't contribute much until next year when the 2012 garden starts!"

The outdoor season is really winding down here, as well. I am continuing with some Fall cleanup, and some end game pollinating. I have been saving green seeds to keep them away from the birds. I was concerned that the "shrub" might be a sterile triploid, but I have obtained enough apparently viable green seeds from it to encourage me that it might eventually have a fairly big seed yield.

The crosses with the Bugle onto several different breeders have also yielded a significant number of apparently good green seeds. Apparently the Bugle is a good "daddy".

I do plan to trial several of my more interesting crosses indoors this Winter. I will report on that as it progresses. I fully understand why you don't have any more pictures to post until next season. I have pretty much run out of anything new myself, as you can see. But I hope that you and others will continue to participate verbally in this off-season time. Winter is more a time for planning and strategizing for a better garden next Spring, and that activity can itself be enjoyable.

ZM

ZM,

The off season would be a good time to practice your tc skills.

You could use some seed as starting material. mix in 10% clorox for 15 min or so, then maybe some time in 70% ethanol, then triple rinse in sterile water and plate.

Ryan,

"The off season would be a good time to practice your tc skills. You could use some seed as starting material."

That is a good idea. I have some odd small zinnia seeds (I refer to them in my mind as "micro seeds") that might not make it on their own, and they would be good candidates for TC experimentation. I plan to put them in one of those little devices for holding loose tea leaves to make a cup of tea, and just dunk them in the disinfecting solution as if I were making a cup of tea with them. And then rinse them off in the same device.

ZM

Joseph,

"If you are interested in participating, please e-mail me..."

I emailed you earlier today, asking for more details. It sounds like an interesting project. Other forum participants, like jackier_gardener for example, might wish to participate as well. There have been several participants in previous parts of this message series who have been interested in zinnias and plant breeding. And it isn't very active at the moment, but you might want to post your message in GardenWeb's Hybridizing forum.

ZM

Hi everyone,

This message thread has passed the 100 mark, and is understandably somewhat slow to load, so I am continuing it over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 17 for a "fresh" start.

I look forward to seeing you all over there.

ZM