All right so I went all the way through to your orginal thread and maybe I just missed but as far a germinateing req. for Zinna's from self collected seed is there a cold period they need a spefic temp please let me know I am not a pro like you guy but it looks like fun. Josh

Welcome Josh. Hopefully someone on here will give a more accurate answer. The other zinnia breeders here have mastered indoor propagation. For a quickie answer; sow outdoors in full sunlight after all danger of frost in your area. I cover seeds with about 1/4 inch of soil. Zinnias love heat and sun. I live in GA, so I can plant outdoors mid-April through July and enjoy blooms until frost.

Which reminds me; JG, how is it going with the cuttings?

joshuaslc,

HC is right. Zinnia seeds do not require any cold pretreatment. They germinate easily. You can gather the seedheads when they turn brown, or even before they turn entirely brown.

If you are planning to store them, it is important that they dry out before you take them apart and recover the seeds. I let the individual heads dry on paper plates or in paper bowls on shelves or anyplace out of the way where they can dry. I save the dried seeds in Ziploc® Snack Bags with a 3x5 card with notes about them. Under reasonable storage conditions, they remain viable for many years.

There is a "green seed" technique that has been discussed previously here. It saves you a few weeks when you are starting a second generation in the same year.

Most of my zinnia seeds germinate in 2 to 4 days, sometimes longer. Green seeds usually take a few days longer, but with them you are skipping a multi-week seed maturation stage in order to get a second generation started quickly.

There might still be time for a fall crop of zinnias for you this year, depending on when your killing frost comes. That would give you the opportunity to select some favorite specimens to save seed from, and you could practice pollinating and cross-pollinating them.

Oh, and welcome to these zinnia message threads. By reading them, you already have an introduction to raising zinnias as a hobby. I enjoy zinnia breeding because it is so fast-paced compared to breeding other flowers. Zinnias can give you some quick results. And it doesn't cost much to get started.

MM

My wife got some this year and i was impressed with them I hybridize lilies so I scoff at annuals my mistake one of the gas station nearmy work has them growing out by their sign I asked if i could take some dead blooms home he looked at me funny and said have as much as you want i think i have over 200 seeds. I also collected some from hers. A quick question if you get seed from Zinna's that were planted next to eachother even though they're the same flower will you get true seed or just a diffrent hybrid? our frost date is October 20 don't know if thsat is enough time how do store seed over winter atwhat temp is killing to the seed if any? thanks sorry for the inquries Josh M

Josh,

"...if you get seed from Zinnias that were planted next to each other even though they're the same flower will you get true seed or just a different hybrid?"

Most of them will resemble the "same flower", although there will be natural variation, even within the same strain. Bees do quite a bit of pollination of zinnias, including cross pollination with nearby zinnias. When you grow a group of zinnias, you always have the opportunity to save seeds from "the pick of the litter". If you grow a lot of zinnias, the mathematical odds are that you will find something extra good. My strategy is to designate my best specimens as "breeders" and to self-pollinate and cross-pollinate among them. The not-so-good zinnias go to the compost pile, to reduce the chance that bees will use their pollen in a way that I wouldn't want.

"...our frost date is October 20, don't know if that is enough time?"

Probably not. That is only 41 days from now. I quit planting zinnia seeds about six weeks ago. Last year our killing frost didn't come until the early hours of October 29th, but that was several weeks later than our "average" date. It is likely that any zinnia seeds you planted today would "get nipped in the bud", as they say. But it doesn't hurt to experiment.

"how do store seed over winter ... at what temp is killing to the seed if any?"

Your main concern on zinnia seed is that they not get too hot. I store many of mine at room temperature, in drawers, which seems to work OK. Some of my more important seed are stored in a wine cooler that maintains about 55°F, which is probably about ideal. You could store them in your refrigerator, as long as they are protected from moisture in a sealed container of some sort. But I wouldn't store them in the freezer. I should experiment with a few seed in the freezer, because I notice that I get some "volunteer" zinnias in the Spring, which means that they survived our cold Maine Winter, with temperatures that are occasionally below zero.

MM

Hi everyone,

It's been busy at work, but I am back now, and MM, that orange cactus flower is a beautiful example! I think the funny thing among us zinnia people is that-- some of our family or friends may think that would be the perfect specimen to display indoors singly in a vase, but no! our flowers stay in the garden for crossing or/and seed collection. It used to be I would often bring my prettiest flowers in to display in an arrangement, but now they stay the duration in the garden--except for the Benaries, which always come up in large numbers in almost perfect form and are nice for cutting. I have also cut a few "bouquets" from my microgarden.

Hello, Dave and Josh! Good to see you here! As far as seed collecting, I have large numbers of flowers I like, so I often harvest them while the central part of the flower still has lots of color, then the petals at the base may be somewhat green, but have fattened up, and these can be dried indoors on a newspaper several weeks before long term storage at cool dry temperatures. I find a tight plastic container in our unheated garage is a good place--the temperature may go down as low as the forties. I get high rates of germination in the spring. For flowers for which I want to keep all of the seeds, I let the flower mature and start to turn brown, then I collect the seeds. This year, I have covered them with nets to protect the seeds from the goldfinches. I have several gallons of seeds collected for my mixed garden next year already, and just several handfuls of seed from flowers I have crossed by hand this summer.

My cutting in the bottle container did OK until I cut off all circulation and it essentially turned a wet brown and died. I probably should have taken extra measures to sterilize the soil and container here at home, and dip the whole cutting in disinfectant, then sterile water, then the diluted Physan 20. I will retry this when I get some Physan 20 from Worm's Way. I suspect it will be a bit of a challenge now that the plants are getting spots of mildew outside. And, if I do this, I want to to try maybe 2-4 cuttings total. I don't have super intense light here. Although from time to time, I think of asking to rent a small space in a local greenhouse for winter growing experiments.

JG

JG,

"I think the funny thing among us zinnia people is that-- some of our family or friends may think that would be the perfect specimen to display indoors singly in a vase, but no! our flowers stay in the garden for crossing or/and seed collection."

Exactly. My family sort of understands that now, but it does take some getting used to. Here is another specimen in my bed of Burpee Hybrids.

{{gwi:21357}}

It is very similar to some of my recombinant spider-like specimens. But since it is not a recombinant, I am crossing Zig Zags and Whirligigs onto it with the hope there will be less recombinant uncertainty in the offspring. I have grown a lot of seed packet zinnias this year with the hope of deepening my gene pool.

MM

MM,

Another beautiful flower! This encourages me to order from Burpee seeds for the spring season next year. I had Burpeannas from Stokes (I think!) this year, but just a few. I think I will go to the actual source and order next time.

It will be interesting to see how the offspring of the two last flowers you have shown turn out!

JG

Hello again,

Here is yet another zinnia with some tubular petals.

{{gwi:21358}}

This one appeared today among my Burpee Hybrids. I wonder if tubular petals are genetic or just a developmental aberration. Next year should answer that, as the progeny of these tubular specimens appear.

MM

Salmon? orange? white? red? Now I really don't know which of your tubulars I like most. I'm glad they keep appearing and I hope they will breed true for you.

I had been wondering if Burpee's Hybrid mix actually look like they do in their photo. http://www.burpee.com/product/annual+flowers/zinnias/zinnia+burpee+hybrids+mix+-+packet+(50+seeds).do
My two biggest disappointments this year came from Burpee ('Purple Prince' and 'Highlights'), but my '08 favorite also came from Burpee ('Starlight').

Hi!

That is an interesting tubular flower. It will be good to see if that is a hereditary trait. I would think "in the wild" it would be selected against if the stigmas are so well-protected. MM, did you ever see any pollen coming from those "tubes"?

I have in my mixed a garden a cactus descendent that is interesting because the petals aren't stiff but are very thin and light and move easily. Sometimes the petals are toothed, and sometimes not.

{{gwi:21359}}

JG

HC,

"I had been wondering if Burpee's Hybrid mix actually look like they do in their photo."

There are only 10 zinnias showing in that photo, and that is counting one that barely shows on the left-hand side. However, all of the zinnias in that photo have essentially the same flower form, namely down-curled curved petals, which is a rather modified form of the now-extinct "Fantasy Flowered" zinnias. Only these Burpee Hybrids are much larger. (The Fantasy zinnias were 3" to 3½" in diameter, with a few possibly 4".)

In a previous online listing for the Burpee Hybrids, their size was listed as 6" to 7" in diameter. (I have never seen a 7" zinnia, although on several occasions I have had 6" zinnias and a few 6¼" specimens.) I imagine that the 7-inch zinnias were so infrequent that customers complained and Burpee dropped that claim.

Any photo of a field mix of zinnias is only a small sample of what you will get. Zinnias are highly variable, particularly in field mixes. I would estimate that, counting the subtle nuances of color that zinnias are capable of, that there are over a hundred colors in the Burpee Hybrids strain.

And there are several flower forms, including their pictured form, which I usually refer to as "chrysanthemum flowered", and the classic "cactus flowered", and a form with long rather straight petals that I refer to as "linear flowered". This is a recent example of a linear flowered zinnia that appeared in my Burpee Hybrids bed.

{{gwi:21360}}

Only about 5% of the Burpee Hybrids are "linear flowered", but I prize them highly and use them as breeders. A longer-petaled version of "linear flowered" would make a good variant to my objective of "spider flowered". I am still pursuing the spider flowered objective. Some specimens are close, but I want their petals to be longer. Much longer.

MM

JG,

"...did you ever see any pollen coming from those "tubes"?"

Yes, upon splitting those tubes to get at the enclosed stigmas to pollinate them, I have found anthers with some apparent pollen in them. That was a huge surprise to me. I had always supposed that the "bugle flowered" zinnia I originally mentioned was probably sterile and probably produced no viable seeds, but now I have serious doubts about that. It very well may have had a full head of seeds.

"I have in my mixed a garden a cactus descendent that is interesting because the petals aren't stiff but are very thin and light and move easily. Sometimes the petals are toothed, and sometimes not."

That one looks worthy of saving seeds from. Definite flower form possibilities there.

MM

So what make a breeder I have some coral red that look like dahlia's when in bloom they have performed remarkably well. I took seed from them in hope to grow those. also What are knew flower shape or thing Zinna's are stirving for i want to help not hinder the flowers I like the rose flowered Zinna earlier ojn this thread it is very pretty. Josh

Josh,

"So what makes a breeder?"

Any zinnia that you like is a potential breeder for you. Your own tastes and preferences determine that. You are breeding zinnias for your own entertainment and enjoyment. If other people like your zinnias, that is OK, too. But you are the ultimate judge in your zinnia patch.

As you look at your zinnias carefully, you will see lots of little details that you might not have noticed previously. Some things you might like, and some things you might not like. As you notice more about zinnias, your goals may evolve. But in the meantime, save seeds from your favorites and, if you like, cross-pollinate between your favorites. Either way, your saved seed may produce some interesting results.

Thanks for the compliment about the rose flowered zinnia. I like it, too. Actually, I like all of the zinnias whose pictures I have posted. The ones I don't like are in my compost pile.

MM

I'm sitting here reading MM's response to So what makes a breeder? shouting "Amen, you go!" With pigeon breeding I'm expected to appear at each year's show with birds that are closer and closer to a written standard. That is a steep challenge and my only devotion to breeding to standard is knowing that I am helping preserve a race that may have been enjoyed for centuries. My true delight is combining traits from several breeds to create birds to my fancy. Fancy used to be used for those involved in breeding. (eg.: the guppy fancy)

James makes note of stem distance between 1st bloom and the next leaf/leaves below. Writing notes of multiple characteristics and keeping it enclosed with your saved seed is essential to advancing toward a goal. MM has ripple edged leaves and pays special attention to petal length and width. He avoids short zinnias and those that produce an excess of disk florets. (Knowing what you dislike or won't tolerate is important too.) JG takes note of special flower forms and is keeping us informed about her interspecific crosses. I rather like JG's recent cactus descendent that has easily movable petals. I have a lemon chiffon like that and flexibility makes slipping a protective net off and on much easier.
I like zinnias that produce a lot of blooms on each plant and can support them away from the ground. I also like every single photo I see on here, so I'll have to learn to focus toward fewer goals. However, I do wish to have more than one line of zinnias going simultaneously.

HC,

I agree with you that the wise thing to do is focus on fewer goals and set just a few priorities. I have so many packets of seeds from particular flowers I liked or of seeds from particular crosses this summer now, that my "project" is quickly getting out of control! I would guess I have at least 40 different sets of seeds to grow out next year! And, I also want to grow out a number of seeds I collect from the natural crosses resulting from this year's diverse garden! I have a gut feeling that offspring that result from chance crossings may far exceed anything I actually plan as far as interesting form and color combinations go. I think I'm done with spotting more interesting characteristics in the plants and let it go with what I have this season.

The important thing is good documentation. For the most part, we're dealing with multiple, multiple alleles for each character in these plants, and for me, I want to start getting at least a rough idea on the inheritance of some of the traits I'm seeing.

JG

All right I agree with you that it should be your own choice. is there any passive or dominate genes with this paticular flower or isit hit and miss. With lilies there were only 12 to 36 chromsome so some predictablity did occur and how in the world do you stablize a line of zinna to breed true? so many qustions I know I will figure some out on my own but a little info alway help. Josh

Hi, I am quite delighted that from a simple packet I am getting different colors, petal shapes, etc. The packet itself is a mix, so I am not surprised but still pleased. :-)

For example, I am getting this one which pattern I like. The color itself is ok but it's too like marigold; but I assume this plant has the "gene" to produce bi-color pattern, so if I cross with purple, for example, I might get purple bicolor? (I do know about the first generation might not show but might carry to the 2nd generation etc...)
{{gwi:21361}}

Then I have this one whose color and petal shape I like. I am thinking about crossing the two. Is there anything theoretical that we know about color pattern, or is it just a trial-and-error type of thing?
{{gwi:21363}}

Thanks!

Josh,

Z. violacea, Z. haageana, and Z. peruviana, all have 24 chromosomes. There are probably a very large number of active genes on those chromosomes, as well as a very large number of DNA code fragments from previously active genes. As far as I know, no one has done a zinnia genome yet, although it probably will be done.

"...how in the world do you stabilize a line of zinnia to breed true?"

You save seed only from selfed true-to-type specimens for four to six generations in a row. It is said that inbreeding beyond that number of generations can be harmful, although I wouldn't hesitate to experiment.

Or, you can always grow them from from cuttings. The clones will be identical, as you can see in the first message of It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6. Incidentally, I have been saving seedheads from that grouping.

MM

Dave,

That looks like you may have a pink Persian Carpet. If so, that is quite a find. I have never seen that shade of pink in a Persian Carpet. I would definitely cross the two, but I would also self some of the stigmas on that pink specimen. You and JG are making me wish I grew some Persian Carpets and Aztec Sunsets this year.

MM

Hi Dave,

What kind of zinnia seeds were in the packet that gave you the above flowers? Were they Persian Carpets or some other kind? It's interesting to see what you are getting!

JG

MM, when you said Persian Carpet you meant the first one first? I think Persian Carpets are bicolor, but I wouldn't call that color "pink" though, so I am not sure if you meant the second one. Actually the colors (of the first one) came up prettier in the picture than in real. In the real flower, the colors are more like a bicolor coreopsis (or even similar to a marigold colors), that is, the center is more brownish than orange or pink.

JG, since my original seedlings were eaten by slugs, I just went to Walmart and bought a mixture packet. It is called "Mini-Zini Mixture." The description says "this mix of Thumbelina, Button Box, Pumila, and Lilliput combines four of the most compact Zinnia varieties available. Flower types are beehive, fully double and semi-double. Color range of pink, red, white, yellow, orange and scarlet."

The flowers are small though.

Dave,

Well, the first one does look like a classic Persian Carpet to me. Did it come in the "Mini-Zini Mixture" or did it come from a Persian Carpet packet? The pink zinnia seemed to have a very similar flower form to the Persian Carpet above it. The petals had a similar shape and size, and had similar "notches" on the ends. I now understand that it is not a Persian Carpet, however, and its pollen florets are larger than on the Persian Carpet. A cross between the two still might be an interesting interspecies experiment.

I understand your problem with the camera not giving a true rendition of the mahogany color in the Persian Carpet. I have had serious problems of that sort with my Wife's Kodak digital camera. The only effective way I have found to deal with that is to take pictures in various degrees of shade, including deep shade. I have a choice breeder specimen of a Burpee Hybrid with an unusual vermilion with nuances of coral and cream. Its pictures came out "wrong" in every one of my full sun or partial sun pictures of it, so I never posted a picture of it.

Now that I know about taking pictures in shade, I might try again, but I am pretty busy with "end game" zinnia patch activities, so I may not get around to it. We have had several night temperatures in the low 40's, so a Killing Frost may be only a very few weeks (possibly days) away here.

MM

MM, both came from the "Mini-Zini Mixture" packet. Since the description is so general, I am not surprised if some other varieties got accidentally mixed in.

I did get a few more with some kind of notches on the ends, and I like them all. So many varieties of shapes: similar yet different.

{{gwi:5584}}

Dave,

You've got a really interesting mix of plants! You ought to save seeds from as many as you can to see what you get in the next generation. That little yellow one with the darker bands is usual for the kinds of varieties you thought you got in that mix, I'm pretty sure.

.....Makes me want to go down to Walmart here to see if they have any left-over seeds ;-).

JG

Hey all,
MM had wondered if tubular petals were genetic or a developmental aberration. Sort of had me wondering that also. The flower in the first picture had been open close to a week when I took the photo. The petals were showing a slight curvature. After another week, the majority of the petals had closed in the middle to the tubular shape. It had me pondering if, in this instance, it was more developmental since it took two weeks to occur. Thoughts?
BTG
{{gwi:21365}}{{gwi:21367}}

Hi!

Dave, I meant to say earlier that the yellow flower with the darker bands was UNusual...interesting!

Brock, the flower you are showing is similar to the flower I showed earlier:

{{gwi:15823}}

The petals roll upward, but they are not physically fused to form tubes like in MM's flowers. Nonetheless, even though it may take time to occur, I'll bet that the ability for the petals to roll up as they do is still an inherited tendency to do that in certain environmental conditions. Probably all of the zinnias you have are not doing that now....

JG

BTG,

I really don't know for sure, but I think your rolled-up tubular orange zinnia is partly genetic and partly environmental. Like JG suggested, if it were purely environmental, all of your zinnias should be doing that now, and she and I both suspect that all of your zinnias are not doing that right now. Still, your orange zinnia has rolled up its petals enough that they look tubular, and a lot of up-rolled zinnia petals are not that extreme. You might want to save seeds from it.

The remnants of Hurricane Ike are apparently going to just miss us, but it rained here most of the day anyway, so I didn't get a lot done in my zinnia patch. I am encouraged that some of the foliar feeding that I did a few days ago had a good effect. I am becoming enthusiastic about the foliar feeding of zinnias, but you have to be careful to use a weaker solution on the flowers themselves, or you can burn the petals (as I did on some of them.) I took this picture of a Zig Zag a few days ago.

{{gwi:21368}}

It has been foliar fed, and so have the zinnias behind it, so they have a healthy green look. It is "throwing" a little pollen, but I like the petals and the colors, so I am using it as a breeder.

MM

Good evening!

Back on Sunday, the last of Hurricane Ike came through with a lot of wind, flattening some of the zinnias here. That was just a little compared to what the folks in Texas are going through, so here we have a lot to be thankful for. Seed-collecting is coming to an end, as the bees have chosen other flowers, like the asters in the garden and the goldenrod in our fields that are blooming now. We do have a lot of butterflies though!

Here is probably the last of whirligigs. I don't have a lot of multi-petaled ones, like that of MM's, but mine here is also "throwing" pollen!

{{gwi:21369}}

JG

JG,

That is a nice Whirligig. I like the overlap of the magenta and the yellow which creates a third color zone of scarlet.

We had a couple of days of high winds, too. A lot of my more spindly zinnias are down. Spindly zinnias are a disadvantage of close planting. Next year I will try to space mine out a bit better, and feed them some silicon for hopefully stronger stems. But I still like the general idea of denser planting accompanied by bloom-time culling. The more zinnias you grow, the better your chances are of finding something special. Bee activity here is also much reduced.

We have the possibility here of a frost tonight, so I will be taking a few cuttings today, and doing some more "end game" activities, like seed gathering and labeling.

MM

MM,

You're right about dense planting and spindly stems. I'm trying to get the most from my red scabious and July Bonnet zinnias, so gave both about a 2 yard radius clearance in all
directions of any neighboring plants, staked them, and sprayed with fungicide to at least hold back further mildew
on newly emerging shoots. I'll be taking cuttings of shoots, although honestly, I'm not sure how well I can keep them up! I am more of an outdoor than indoor gardener! Nonetheless, I'm tempted though to try and bring the whole plants inside and keep them in pots after pruning some. Have you done that (roots and all)? We should still have 2 to 3 more weeks before the first frost.

Here is a red scabious flower, taken earlier today. There are yet three more buds on this plant, and I am crossing now with red cactus zinnias, which are shedding lots of pollen even though unnetted because the bees are interested in other things now...

{{gwi:21370}}

JG

JG,

That red scabi is very pretty, and red. The emerging white floret "bulbs" add a nice touch to the flower. The results of crossing it with a red cactus zinnia should be interesting. I would expect most of them to be red. The flower forms and plant habits could be most interesting. I've mentioned before that scabiosa flowered plants can be very well branched and bushy.

I took 14 cuttings today, as a partial insurance against our our frost advisory for tonight. This frickin' Maine climate! A freeze warning in the Summer! That just seems wrong.

MM

Hi All,

Well, the frost wasn't exactly killing, but it was chilling. My zinnias are quite resentful of the cold weather, and tonight is quite chilly too. If they don't die directly of freezing, their health will fail in the cold weather. I will do what I can to keep them going in a climate that is now not at all to their liking.

I mentioned that I had been seeing a lot of streaky mutants in my Whirligigs and Zig Zags. I have pulled a lot of them out because they look almost like some kind of epidemic, but some of them have promise.

{{gwi:21371}}

Next year I may dabble with creating a strain from them. This example has a weird sort of "beauty", if you could call it that.

MM

Hello again,

Here is another of the streaky mutants.

{{gwi:21372}}

I have already pulled that one. It was starting to look bad on the day I took this pic. Some "zinnia babies" look cute, but quickly lose their cuteness as they grow older.

MM

Hello again,

This one has a different sort of look, but is also a mutant.

{{gwi:21373}}

There is enough variation in the mutants that I think, if they were inter-crossed, they could form a rather interesting strain with a lot of different looks.

MM

Hi again,

This one isn't exactly a streaky mutant, but I like its toothy petals, despite its other shortcomings.

{{gwi:21374}}

I netted this one to save seeds from it.

MM

I have seen this variation several times. It has an unusual petal configuration.

{{gwi:21376}}

It is interesting at this stage, but I don't like it overall. It looks a bit like a carnivorous plant, that could fold its petals in on a bee. Who knows? Maybe a prehistoric proto-zinnia actually was carnivorous.

MM

MM,

Your collection of mutants is interesting. I can't help but wonder if possibly there isn't some kind of mobile element or virus to cause the color patterns of those, as in the Peppermint stick types--just a different sort of expression! I wondered the same when I saw it in a few of the streaked flowers I got, including July Bonnet this year-- kind of like the color "breaks" you see in the Rembrandt series tulips. Anyway, I think you could get some new and different looking flowers with these--interesting, too, to see what crosses with them would look like.

Your leaves look so nice and healthy! I have done nothing to take care of the leaves in the zinnias here, and I know for sure the dense plantings lead to mildew infestation or at least increase its incidence. I guess though that this presents a good opportunity to see which of my plants may have mildew resistance, and before I take them down, I will screen them for that. I notice the Profusions (not really my favorite of the flowers) are pretty mildew-resistant. Too bad they have such a strange chromosome number--not easy or even possible to cross, most likely.

It's a shame you have such a short season there in Maine! Our season here has been shortened by a dry stretch in July-August that left me with the plants browning up a lot, so mine are pretty much finished now too.

JG

I'm having to scroll again to read the edges.

I finally have a 'Red Spider' Z. tenufolia. There's only one and it's late, but I'm still pleased. It reminds me of the fire on a cigarette. I can't say that I see into its anatomy. I'm going to have to turn a bucket upside down and use it to help me back up off the ground.

Thanks for sharing photos. I like the "yet another" and the "carnivorous" ones. But I especially like the "toothy" one. It really looks like flames coming out from all sides!

I'm now sure my bees are resting/gone too because I find I still have pollen available until dusk. Also some very available flowers don't seem to be getting pollinated unless I do it. I have some of my best zinnias right now. The goldfinches seem to be gone and I'm seeing that there are now two hummingbirds. The disk fairy spider knows lots of tricks. It formed a 3/4" space capsule shaped like a Hersheys kiss, but adorned with perfectly spaced points. It captured a bumblebee and a green caterpillar.

JG,

"I can't help but wonder if possibly there isn't some kind of mobile element or virus to cause the color patterns of those, as in the Peppermint stick types--just a different sort of expression! I wondered the same when I saw it in a few of the streaked flowers I got, including July Bonnet this year-- kind of like the color "breaks" you see in the Rembrandt series tulips."

I wonder the very same thing. It is troublesome to me that the Rembrandt tulips owe their striped color patterns to a virus infection. I discontinued breeding with the striped and spotted zinnias (Peppermint, Candy Cane, etc) for that very reason. I am not particularly fond of the striped/spotted effect and I would be particularly displeased if it started popping up everywhere in my zinnia patch. The same concern is why I didn't immediately start breeding with the streaked variants that appear in my Whirligigs and Zig Zags.

"I notice the Profusions (not really my favorite of the flowers) are pretty mildew-resistant. Too bad they have such a strange chromosome number--not easy or even possible to cross, most likely."

I am not at all wild about the appearance of any of the Profusions or other Z. marylandica strains. Their colors fade rather rapidly and they have a rather limited variety of appearances.

I suspect you could cross within Z. marylandica, but their unique chromosome situation might interfere seriously with recombinations of traits. Their mildew tolerance has made them very popular with the plant-and-forget gardeners, and Profusions are a big commercial success for that reason. Their commercial profitability will insure new varieties and strains of Z. marylandica for years to come. But I breed zinnias for fun, and the Profusions don't look like much fun to me.

"Your leaves look so nice and healthy!"

Not so much anymore. My zinnias don't like flirting with frost every night.

"I have done nothing to take care of the leaves in the zinnias here, and I know for sure the dense plantings lead to mildew infestation or at least increase its incidence. I guess though that this presents a good opportunity to see which of my plants may have mildew resistance, and before I take them down, I will screen them for that."

When you say "zinnias", people immediately think of mildew. Powdery mildew. Would you believe that I haven't had a single case of powdery mildew this year? Still, even in this "end game" season, no mildew. Late last year, I had a single zinnia branch start to show some mildew, and I solved that problem instantly with a pair of scissors. That mildew took a ride to the landfill. Problem solved.

There are a lot of mis-perceptions about mildew on zinnias. A lot of zinnias actually have mildew because their gardeners have been told that water promotes mildew on zinnias. The truth is the exact opposite of that. Mildew spores cannot germinate in water, and wetting your zinnia leaves can be an effective mildew preventative. In support of that assertion, notice that in this National Gardening Association Q&A: Powdery Mildew on Zinnias, they say, and I quote:

"Powdery mildew is unique among common plant diseases in that it doesn't require a wet leaf surface to spread. It can thus thrive during hot, dry weather, which is why you see it appearing in August. The general advice to inhibit the spread of fungal diseases is to avoid wetting leaf surfaces. In the case of powdery mildew, you can actually inhibit infection with frequent sprays of water. Also, examine plants frequently, removing any affected foliage immediately."

The underlining in that quote is mine. Frequent foliar feedings can also be a strong deterrent to mildew. So can sprays. A favorite of mine is GreenCure®, which is an effective control of a long list of plant diseases. GreenCure has several advantages over more toxic fungicides.

The only zinnia diseases that have given me any problems are Alternaria Leaf Spot (Alternaria zinniae) and Bacterial Leaf Spot (Xanthomonas campestris pv. zinniae). I have been experimenting with Physan 20 foliar sprays as a preventative for them, with encouraging results. But the Physan 20 is preventative, and not curative. The spots on the leaves in this picture are probably Alternaria, but some could be bacterial.

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I have noticed that in crowded growing conditions, inside or outside, the lower zinnia leaves that can't get any significant amount of light tend to die off, whether they have a disease or not. I haven't experimented yet to see whether foliar feeding those leaves with a sugar solution and a glycerin adjuvant could bypass their need for photosynthesis or not. I plan to do that next year. The techniques of growing healthy zinnias are in themselves an interesting hobby, with many interesting challenges and things to learn.

MM

Wow, lost of great pictures! I like them all. Love the color of the one posted on 0:38 today.

I have a questions on spots on the petals. Are these genetic or is this is just a result of aging or some kind of disease? The is the same one that I had shown before. It was nearly white in the beginning but now it is pink with spots.

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HC,

"I'm having to scroll again to read the edges."

Ironically, I am almost certainly the guilty party on that. All of our pictures are 986 pixels or less in width, but that "cute" little trick I pulled on Sun, Aug 31, 08 at 1:18, putting a small picture on each side of the text, very likely is causing your scrolling problem. I will open up a Part 8 in the near future, because our message count and picture load (also mainly my doing) are getting rather high here in Part 7. And I won't do that left/right picture trick again.

"The goldfinches seem to be gone and I'm seeing that there are now two hummingbirds."

Same here. Good riddance to the finches, as far as I am concerned. They are pretty, but they can wreak havoc with my zinnia seeds.

We've had at least two hummingbirds, but when two males appear at the same time, they seem to chase each other. Maybe that is a territorial thing.

"The disk fairy spider knows lots of tricks."

That spider is quite a character. (grin)

MM

Dave,

"I have a questions on spots on the petals. Are these genetic or is this is just a result of aging or some kind of disease?"

I have seen those same spots repeatedly on some of my zinnia petals, usually on light pink petals. At this time, I am not certain whether they are genetic, environmental, or a disease. Or some combination thereof. That is an open question for me. As I get more experience with zinnias, I may learn or deduce the answer.

You have to be careful when you spray petals, or foliar feed them, because they are much more sensitive than the leaves to sprays.

If you are going to foliar spray your petals, you should cut the spray strength to only a quarter or less what you would spray on the leaves. I don't know whether that applies to sugar sprays or not. Lots of experiments to do.

MM

MM, when photos were on either side of the texts, I had no problem; I rather liked that effect. The only time I've had to scroll on this thread was on Sept 20. Everything is fine today, so it may have been the computer I was using that day.

What is the benefit of sugar sprays? and do they not attract ants?

I believe the pink specks on Dave's "white" are pigment clusters, but that doesn't name the cause. I've had a couple of tiny "white' blooms this year that were pink by the 2nd day. I like the effect, but not the pink. When a third "white" appeared in the same mixed clump of volunteers, I paid little attention. When on the 2nd day a tiny orange flower stood in its place, my ears perked up. I followed its stem to the ground and tied a string there. I did the same with the pink "whites" (one plant). They had sprouted about one cm apart, causing me to believe they fell from a common parent. I intend to make a project of them unless they become speckled with time.

HC,

"What is the benefit of sugar sprays? and do they not attract ants?"

The plant leaves can absorb the sugar and use it as a food just as they do the sugar that they produce by photosynthesis. In cloudy weather, the zinnias produce less sugar by photosynthesis, which can limit their growth and their overall health. Sugar can be especially helpful then. I suspect it is also helpful in sunny weather. I will probably spray a lot more sugar next year, combined with my foliar feeding and disease prevention program.

I haven't noticed the foliar-fed sugar attracting any ants. The spray is diluted quite a bit (one or two tablespoons of sugar in a gallon) such that the coating of sugar that is left on the leaves is very thin. Almost microscopically thin. I doubt that their mouth parts could get any of the very thin coating, even if they tried. The only ants that I have seen on my zinnias were the aphid-tending variety, and they get a very concentrated "honey dew" from the aphids they tend. When they become especially numerous on a breeder zinnia flower, I spot-spray it to kill both the aphids and the ants. I use as little insecticide as possible.

MM

Hey MM, here's a pic of one I found in my mixed bed. It looks like it's showing the type of curled downward petals you are working for with your spider flower development. There was another flower developing and another that is almost ready to harvest the seeds. If you are interested in the seeds from this plant, let me know.
BTG
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BTG,

I am glad someone else is getting some of those mutants. I was beginning to wonder if all of my mutants were due to something in the water (grin).

Thanks for the offer of seeds from yours, but I haven't really decided to go for a strain of them yet. I do have misgivings about growing a lot of them. Those mutants are a novelty, but they don't impress me as particularly decorative. Most of mine are already in the compost pile.

Well, I guess it is time to start a new part to this message thread. See you all over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 8.

MM

I have just grown my zinnia's. Enjoy watching it grow every day.
Visit my blog to see its growth from Day one (Sprouting) to till date.
http://zinnia2009.blogspot.com/

Here is a link that might be useful: Growth of My Zinnia

adatt,

Welcome to zinnia growing and this series of message threads about zinnias as a hobby. I see that you live in India, and that you just recently registered here on GardenWeb. Your experiences with zinnias in India will be most interesting to us, since most of us here live in the United States and we don't know what it is like growing zinnias in India.

You said on Day 2 of your blog that "I have read on internet it takes eight to ten weeks for Zinnia to bloom..." and that may be true of some zinnias in some places, but I have had some of my hand-pollinated zinnias bloom indoors under fluorescent lights as early as 5 to 6 weeks. We will be interested to see how your zinnias do in India.

We are so glad to have you here. As it happens, you have entered this series of message threads back in one of its earlier parts. You can follow the "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias" message series forward up to the present time by clicking on the "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 8" hyperlink in the message just above your message and you can read backwards in the series by clicking on the "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6" hyperlink on very first message in this thread. All of these threads are connected by hyperlinks head-to-tail and tail-to-head to make it easy to read forward or backward in the series. Actually, we are now in Part 11, and we look forward to more messages from you over there.

Incidentally, I have since moved from Maine to Kansas late last year, so I have changed my identity from MaineMan to ZenMan. We look forward to learning from you about what it is like to grow zinnias in India.

ZM