Since It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6 has gone beyond 100 messages and become rather slow to load, we are starting yet another part of this message thread. Feel free to leave messages here and to post your zinnia-related pictures here. Out of deference to those readers with 1024-pixel monitors, please try to keep your pictures no wider than 986 pixels. This picture of a recent "mutant" in my Zig Zags is 986 pixels wide.

I netted it in case I wanted to use pollen from it, but in the last day or two I have noticed that mutants of this sort are rather common in the Whirligigs and Zig Zags. In fact, I have relegated several of the mutants to the compost pile, because many of them are much less interesting than this one. I am still sparing a few because they are more unique.

MM

After reviewing JG's first 2008 single multicolored bloom, I'm wondering if JG choose to use it as a breeder.

Here is a good representation of what I am seeing in the Persian Carpet zinnias:

The variety within the one cultivar amazes me!

HC, I agree with MM--your zinnia picture does make me think the flower is rose-like. The shade of purple is pretty.

MM, you're seeing the white streaks in your whirligigs and zig-zags that I saw in my July Bonnet. This summer, that was the first time I ever saw that--but it looks to be somewhat common in your garden! Oh, well, I will hold onto my flower.. We have been talking about underside of petals. What color is the underside of those white-streaked flowers you are seeing? In the July flower, the underside of the streaked petals was a light blue-white color.

JG

"It was a pleasure to go back through part 4 looking for the purple scabious flowered with white reverse side."

The hyperlink I provided was supposed to take you directly to that message. I repeated the link here so you don't have to go back to Part 6 to try it. Does it not work for you? I "test" all of my hyperlinks in Preview Message before doing a Submit Message. I would be curious to know if my HTML doesn't work for you. Perhaps it is browser dependent. Anyhow, I am glad you enjoyed exploring Part 4 again, although I was trying to avoid forcing you to do that.

JG,

"...you're seeing the white streaks in your whirligigs and zig-zags that I saw in my July Bonnet. This summer, that was the first time I ever saw that--but it looks to be somewhat common in your garden! Oh, well, I will hold onto my flower..."

Well, you definitely should hold onto July Bonnet. Not only does it have white streaks, it has a very unusual flower form, well worth becoming a strain. So far, none of the progeny of my "curly top" red zinnia have inherited the curly top. Maybe next year.

MM

HC, I'm not sure which flower you were speaking of earlier today. If you meant anything you saw posted prior to July 2008, those flowers are actually from the 2007 summer season. I saved lots of seeds, but mixed them all together to grow and give to friends. This year, the first picture of the plant I showed in July, I did save the seeds, but mixed them in with my general batch of harvested seeds. For me the first flower is always exciting, but when you grow whirligigs, that sort of flower is somewhat common. You should try a pack of two of those seeds! They are always a lot of fun.

MM, thanks for the encouragement. I will save some seeds, as well as try and get some cuttings started. Today I found a 'Parks Pick' Benary rippled-leaf plant. The flower is just beginning to open.

JG

"What color is the underside of those white-streaked flowers you are seeing?"

Nothing special. This is a picture of the underside of one. There is a typical dull showing through of the top layer with some veins and cellular structure of the petal superimposed. Some look a little better than others, but none are at all remarkable. And none appear to be substantially different from the backsides of "normal" zinnias.

I think it would be a major breakthrough mutant to have full color on the reverse side of the petals. I'm not saying it is impossible, but that it isn't something that is at all likely to appear soon. Hopefully we will be aware if we are lucky enough to get such a mutant.

Of course, most of the zinnia characteristics that we take for granted were at one time spectacular breakthrough mutants that zinnia growers recognized as something special and preserved by saving seeds.

I think that the process of making hybrids, saving seeds from them, and growing the F2s or other recombinants does have a better chance of eliciting hidden features from the zinnia DNA. But I think that full color on both sides of the petals would be a major breakthrough.

MM

This is a picture of a Zig Zag variant that I like, because it has an "open" flower structure and long thin petals.

I like to be able to see "through" a zinnia flower, and you certainly can with this one. It almost isn't there. Of course, I would much prefer that it grew more petals, but unfortunately it seems to be giving me the "finger".

MM

I think I know pretty much the type of flower you are trying to create. Often in Chinese paintings, the flowers are very delicate and "airy" as you like to see in zinnias.
Slender petals, slender leaves, etc.,-- elegance in a common flower. Those will be very nice, and definitely a departure from the multi-petalled Benary-type flowers that breeders have found in the past to be desirable..

Below is a current July Bonnet flower in my garden. Notice that the ray petals have already been taken for seeds. And, when you look at the bottom sides of those ray petals, they are the typical green-white of most zinnia petals. But the "curly top" petals, that increase over time, are either a pure white, or sometimes a pale lavender on the underside, as seen below:

JG

I will have to join SeedSavers so I can get in on some of your seed. The cool one I was referring to was posted June 29, 2008.

I like the naughty 'Zig Zag'. Even before I realized it was naughty, it just makes a smile widen across my face.

The hyperlink above sends me to the very beginning of part 4 as did the one the other day. Maybe other readers can let you know how it behaves on their computers.

Thanks for taking the time to share the 'Persian Carpet' presentation. You are a good advocate for the breed. I think the 4th example is a good choice for starting MM's spider surprises.

I see stigmas in among those "bonnet" petals, so hopefully you could self pollinate or cross pollinate them for some more seed. That is a distinctly different mutation, and I have never seen anything like it. My crested specimen didn't have nearly as much twist and didn't have the streaked coloration, either. And, sob, it didn't come true. At least, not yet.

Persian Carpets are a remarkably diverse strain. I seem to remember that a solid colored near-white sometimes appears in the strain.

HZ,

I'm disappointed that my hyperlink didn't take you directly to the message. It was designed to do that, and worked for me, and still does. JG, does it work for you?

Persian Carpet #4 is a single, as is #10. My spider-flowered objective is for very slender down-rolled petals, but for double flowered or at least partially double flowered blooms. I have been flirting with the idea of a single flowered version, but they would need to look really good.

The "naughty" specimen might be acceptable, particularly if it were a really many-flowered plant. But that specimen is not particularly many-flowered and the up-curved petals show quite a bit of less attractive back-side. This year I am hoping to produce a lot of new F1 hybrid seeds between selected Whirligig/Zig Zag types and cactus flowered and "spiderish" flower forms. I want to deepen my gene pool in that area.

Next year I plan to "grow out" a lot of my scabiosa heritage seeds, because most of those recombinants will be fodder for the compost pile. Hopefully at least a few of them will make some progress in that area. My objective there is much larger disk florets. Those florets are actually individual flowers, and I want them to really look like individual flowers. Apparently I will have to "break a lot of eggs to make that omelet."

MM

MM's link above took me to his Wed, Apr 9, 08 at 14:34 message, with the pretty purple flower. I guess it worked for me...

HC, that June 29 photo, my first flower of 2008, was of mixed garden heritage. I said it may have arisen through a Zowie cross; it could have also come from a whirligig cross (I actually would bet that Zowie is a strain of whirligig that has been made so that reproduces true to form). Again, I think you would totally enjoy what you would get from a pack of whirligig seeds!

MM, do you find that selfed scabious zinnias give rise to scabious zinnias? Or, do you still get a mixed lot of offspring? It seems that that is what you were saying above. I am hoping to learn a lot from this year's crosses, as to the how some of these characteristics are inherited.

With respect to the Persian Carpets, what about using a flower like #9 to contribute a color scheme for your spider zinnias, as it is doubled? I haven't seen a white flower yet in my Persian Carpets, but because they are so varied, I wouldn't be surprised to see one show up. The Persian Carpets I have are from both Park and T&M.

Your thin-petalled whirligig above could contribute to a multi-colored spider. That could be interesting, too.

JG

"...do you find that selfed scabious zinnias give rise to scabious zinnias? Or, do you still get a mixed lot of offspring?"

I haven't kept accurate enough records to answer definitively, but selfs of "true" scabiosas produce lots more true specimens than straight run from the packet. And my scabi x scabi crosses produced a lot of true forms. Until I start using a lot more nets than I am now, bees are still an "X" factor. Bumblebees, in particular, annoy me by harvesting unseen pollen from the upper florets of my true scabiosas. I've got to start netting them and using that pollen myself.

I'm very glad the link worked for you. I was beginning to doubt my HTML. I will continue to rely on that HTML to link to individual messages, while being unable to explain why it didn't work for HC. HC, what browser are you using? Is it something different from Internet Explorer? If you menu-select Help>About what does it say?

"With respect to the Persian Carpets, what about using a flower like #9 to contribute a color scheme for your spider zinnias, as it is doubled?"

Yes, that scheme would be perfect. I am kicking myself for not having any Persian Carpets or Aztec Sunsets to experiment with. I do have one or two Whirligig/Zig Zag blooms with dark purple tipped white that I plan to use as much as I can. However, their purple is not as dark as the deep purples that you see in some Persian Carpets. Next year I will have Persian Carpets and some of the species zinnias growing for experimentation.

"Your thin-petalled whirligig above could contribute to a multi-colored spider. That could be interesting, too."

I agree totally. I will be making crosses of that sort. Unfortunately, all of my thin petalled multi-colors are also up-curled petals, and I want the petals to curl downward. However, my existing spider types are downcurled, so maybe with a little recombination I can get downcurled thin multicolored petals.

MM

I've got to order some Whirligigs, but I think there is a lot of variety from company to company.

"I think it is FireFox."

That's the problem. Firefox 2 does not fully support HTML which, unfortunately, is the primary duty of a browser. My links to specific forum messages also fail on my Firefox 2.0.0.16. I tried to update my Firefox 2.0.0.16 to the latest Firefox 3.0.1 but the Mozilla website was swamped (presumably with other Firefox 2 users trying to upgrade.) I think that a Firefox 3.0.2 will be available soon, and then a little later this year, a Firefox 3.1 should become available. It will be interesting to see which, if any, of the new Firefoxes will support my links.

MM

"I've got to order some Whirligigs, but I think there is a lot of variety from company to company."

You also might want to try a few Zig Zags. I have grown seedbeds of both Whirligigs and Zig Zags and, although they are very similar, I see some specimens in the Zig Zags that I don't see in the Whirligigs, and vice versa. So I think they are slightly different strains. In my opinion, Veseys 5 grams of Zig Zags for $4.90 is a much better deal than their 80-seed packet for $1.75. Five grams is a good bunch of zinnia seeds.

I also planted a single small packet of Carrousels. There weren't many seeds in the packet, so I got only about two dozen plants. They were almost 100% bicolors and tricolors but, perhaps by coincidence with such a small statistical sample, none of them met my standards and all are in the compost pile now. I may not buy any more Carrousels, but then again, I might. I think that just getting zinnias from a different field gives you chances for different specimens.

MM

I don't have any new flowers, with the exception of this streaked whirligig. I guess since MM showed his, I will show mine!

It's the first one I've seen here.

JG

Although I do intend to make a lot of crosses with Persian Carpets and Aztec sunsets next year, this year I planted a lot of Whirligigs and Zig Zags in order to get bicolors and tricolors in a "safe" form.

Apparently the Whirligigs, Carrousels, and Zig Zags have a heritage that reaches way back to crosses between Z. violacea and Z. haageana a long time ago. Those crosses surmounted some difficulty with compatibility of the interspecies hybrids, despite the equality of chromosome number.

If JG has gotten viable seed from her interspecies crosses with Persian Carpets and Z. violacea, she will have achieved some exciting results.

I decided to start with the less daring approach of using Whirligigs and Zig Zags, because I wanted a more certain production of bicolors and tricolors for my spider flowered hybrids. Some of the Whirligigs and Zig Zags correspond rather loosely to some of the Persian Carpets, as these two examples indicate. That's a Whirligig on the left and a Zig Zag on the right. I am hoping to get some good bicolor hybrids next year.

I also am going to experiment with interspecies hybridization next year, because of the possibility of getting some unique results. In fact, I may do a little of that interspecies work this Winter, because it is very convenient to pollinate zinnias that are in pots right here beside my computer in this crowded lab/study.

MM

Here is another of my streaky "mutants". I think I am seeing about one of these mutants in fifty Whirligigs.

A lot of them border on being ugly, and some have already hit the compost pile.

MM

My focus has continued to be a refinement of the old plant habit of the original Burpeena zinnias with nice large blooms in intense colors.

Though I had germination problems with my saved seed of last year, I did get a number of plants.

The loss of my computer shut down using the genealogy software for record keeping, but it was working well until the crash. Data that I was collecting for the breeders was the bloom size, color, and type along with height to first bloom and distance from first bloom to the first leaf below and whether that leaf was single or double.

The t-shirt transfer cloth labels have held up well tied to the plant stem and have not faded.

The use of pipe pots did work well to get plants to the first bloom stage before setting to the garden, which is important to me with my limited garden space.

I am now in the process of saving seed from selected plants and testing for germination.

I didn't keep my seed separate last year. A lot of that saved was from a self sown yellow zinnia with a lot of the qualities I'm looking for. I was pleased to get a number of very similar plants this year like the one pictured above.

The zinnia above was very tall and had none of the plant habit of the Burpeenas. It was selected for breeding based on color, which was a deep blood red of a quality I have not seen in zinnias. My digital camera is incapable of capturing the reds of some flowers. After a few days the bloom color changes to that seen in zinnias. It's not so much a change in hue, but a loss of pure color.

Another breeder selected for bloom and plant habit.

Hopefully I will soon get the time to rebuild my computer, get all my photos and records back, and be able to rejoin the forum in an interactive way.

james

It's good to hear from you again. I know how upsetting having your computer die can be. I had my C drive go bad a couple of years ago and I had only part of my stuff backed up, so there were irrevocable losses.

Your PVC pots look great. And those labels look very professional. You have some nice cactus flowered breeders.

"My digital camera is incapable of capturing the reds of some flowers."

Wow! I have the same problem. I don't have a digital camera of my own yet, but I borrow my Wife's point-and-shoot (it's actually quite good for a $250 camera) and I am pleased that I can focus fairly close with it. But it goes totally nuts with bright reds and magentas in the sun, with the color being so saturated that it just flares out and you can't see the details. I try to compensate by taking pictures on cloudy days and sometimes I de-saturate the pictures in Photoshop to recover some of the detail. And, like you said, there are a lot fine nuances of color that it can't capture.

Some day, knock on wood, I am going to get a good (expensive) digital camera of my own, because I have always been interested in photography. (Hopefully it will be able to capture subtle color variations.) I enjoy watching the insects in my zinnia patch. Like JG says, the zinnia patch is its own microcosm of ecology.

A few weeks ago I saw a honeybee that had been caught and killed by a flower spider that probably weighed less than half what the bee weighed. That zinnia had been the scene of a remarkable struggle. I want to be able to take macro photographs of the insect life that abounds everywhere, including in the zinnias. Hummingbirds and butterflies are daily visitors to my zinnias, and a whole gallery of bee-like creatures. Nature's photo opportunities are everywhere.

Well, we hope you can find time to rebuild that computer so you can participate more here with us. Here's to a great year for zinnias next year.

MM

I just upgraded my Mozilla Firefox to the latest version 3.0.1 and it also doesn't work with my links to specific forum messages. Oh well, maybe the upcoming Firefox 3.1 will get its act together.

MM

James, it's good to hear from you and see your flowers. The colors are wonderful, and it seems your seeds are getting you some very nice plants. And, your T-shirt labels look professional.

It's a coincidence that both James and MM are talking about capturing reds with a digital camera. Yesterday, I had placed some pictures of red zinnias in Photobucket. I wanted to point out that different shipments of the same type of seeds from large distributors are often very different looking. I would think that this may be because the seeds are originating from different sites. I got two different shipments of Parks Pick zinnias this spring. In one shipment, the red zinnias were fire-engine red as shown on the left below. On the right is the type of red zinnia I got in the second shipment--a very dark red. Here the photo just doesn't do it justice for the dark shade that it truly is!

It might be a good shade to mix with whirligigs to try and get that dark red bred into them. That would make a sharp flower!

I am also totally enjoying the creatures in the garden. Although we have an active beehive about 50 yards from the main garden, I actually feel that I am seeing more bumblebees than honeybees this summer. Lots of little sweat bees, swallowtail butterflies, monarch butterflies, admiral butterflies, white moths, black and yellow garden spiders, asassin bugs, and in the evenings, sphinx moths. The sphinx moths look like miniature hummingbirds! And, I have lots of hummingbirds. They must be somewhat territorial, as I notice that once one of them gets comfortable going from flower to flower, another hummingbird will suddenly fly in quickly from nowhere, and chase the first away so that he can enjoy the flowers. I am trying to get pictures of butterflies. Interesting--while the swallowtails proudly pose and show their pretty wings, the monarchs almost always sip at the flowers with closed wings...

JC

The Park's Picks zinnias are actually Benary's Giants, but renamed by Parks. The Benary's Giants have three reds:

Benary's Giant Scarlet
Benary's Giant Crimson
Benary's Giant Deep Red

It looks like you got the Scarlet and the Deep Red, although maybe the one on the left is Crimson.

I got a nice deep red or possibly plum red in my current crop of Burpee's Burpeeanas. I'll wait until it is in the shade to take a picture of it. Every now and then I want a really good digital SLR camera, and this is one of those times. Maybe next year.

MM

That's one talented spider!

As soon as the Sun went behind the trees, I snapped this picture of the zinnia I mentioned.

Even without sunlight, the red-purple color is much too light. For some reason my Wife's camera can't render reds accurately. The actual color is deeper and richer than shows here. But I like this zinnia, and have designated it as a breeder.

MM

This is rather like a cool-weather rain forest. It is sort of like the tropics, but without the heat and humidity. Our days are short in the Winter, but our Summer days are long, so it has its advantages.

The lighting in the picture is intentionally rather subdued, because it is open-sky shade. You can see the blue sky color reflected in the sand. I just got another load of sand today, so I will be busy using it for the next few weeks. Part of it will go toward a modest extension to my garden/terrace.

I have a couple of recent orange breeders. I will show a picture of one of them in my next message. My preference is for long, thin petals. By repeated selection from them, I should get some more of my preferred spider-flowered types.

It's back to the garden for me right now.

MM

HC, I don't think any of us would have suspected how the disc flowers grow on certain zinnias! Good observation!
;-))))) Neat photo!

MM, that's a good-looking cactus zinnia. I know exactly what you mean about the red colors not coming true with the digital photos. It does seem there is a bleaching effect with the darker colored flowers.

We have very hot weather today in the nineties. My garden has received very little rain in the last few weeks, and the plants are beginning to lose resistance to some fungal diseases that I can see, including mildew.

Here are several pictures of flowers I have today. The one on the left is probably a descendent, in part, of a cactus- flowered zinnia, while the one to the right, of a whirligig. The latter looks a little like a Swizzle, too, except it is about three feet tall.

JG

I really like the pink suffused white in the tips. That looks like an excellent breeder. Several of your zinnias have displayed that interesting "swirl" formation in their petals. I remember that remarkable swirl bicolor that you showed in one of your first posts. I commented that you had been "holding out" on us. At the time, I didn't realize how deep your gene pool was. Perhaps we still don't know the extent of that.

We've had a dry spell for the last couple of weeks also. I need to start watering my zinnias. We had a six-week wet spell before that, and it fostered a lot of bacterial spots on my zinnias. I sprayed with Physan 20 in an attempt to control those foliage diseases, and that appears to have had some success. As we approach the Fall season, I plan to increase my spraying.

HC,

Here is a picture of that orange zinnia that I mentioned in my last post. It was also deliberately taken under shady lighting to keep the colors from being washed out.

I like its long, textured petals and the rather "open" nature of the bloom. It's not spider flowered, but has potential for being bred in that direction. For the time being I have been pollinating it with selected Whirligigs and Zig Zags.

MM

My first scabiosa bloomed yesterday and does not look in any way special. If it's going to be a scabiosa, will it look so from the beginning?
On the other hand, my first two reds also opened yesterday. One is a 'Starlight'. The other is the surprise because it almost looks like a scabiosa. It is from seed I had saved from '07 'Pumila Sprite'. I did not have even one red zinnia anywhere last year and had never heard of scabiosas before finding these threads. I'm dumbfounded to think I had it hiding in my humble gene pool.

That is a beautiful orange cactus you have there. Your flowers always look so healthy and flawless, and here, the form is really nice.

HC, scabiosas need time to totally fill out, so give your flowers some time! On the other hand, some of them never get beyond looking like a small daisy. You can usually tell by looking closely at newly forming petals, if they are there. Just a few commercial scabiosa seeds give rise to the full-fledged scabiosa flowers, unfortunately!

It has been terribly dry, and my garden is too large to water, so I've been picking out a very few of my favorites and watering them so they will produce flowers. The plants are for the most part as I said before, becoming dry and brown and touched with mildew.

Here is a flower I found today--not sure exactly what the ancestors were......

JG

We haven't had any rain for the last several weeks, and this is our second "dry spell" this year. I'm going to have to water some, but first I need to gather a few dry seedheads.

I have been using a few green plastic "Water Spikes" that I bought several years ago. They were in packages of 6 for $1 and I bought several. I would have bought more if I knew what a bargain they were. This online source of Aqua Cones is shamefully overpriced. They appear to be identical to my Water Spikes. I have been using my Water Spikes to feed liquid nutrients (Miracle-Gro, Better-Gro) to selected breeders.

My zinnia patch is thinning out, because I have been sending at least of couple of dozen rejects to the compost pile every day. I am still waiting for the appearance of white spider-flowered breeders. The color White is a big gap in my color range. Fortunately I have a seedbed of Stokes White Burpeeanas just coming into bloom now. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

I had better get busy gathering dry seedheads. The weather forecasters think that the remnants of hurricane Hanna will bring us rain this coming Sunday, Monday, and possibly Tuesday.

MM

My question is: how do I know when the stigmas are ready?

And I got this one from the first planting. I think it must be from the "Giant Cactus Mix," but it doesn't look like the cactus-type flower shown in the package... unless it is one from "Giant Double Mix."

If I self cross this one, do you think I will get different flower shapes next year? Or are they going to be pretty much the same?

I don't see any disk florets on this bloom yet. What I would do is net it pronto to keep it from being pollinated, then the very first disk floret that appears, I would touch to each stigma and then cover (net) until the next day/disk and repeat.
I'm afraid to say about its selfed progeny in regard to flower shape, but it already exhibits quite a variety of petal shapes within the one bloom. That causes me to think there's a good bit of diversity here and that selfing should give you multiplied diversity. Just do it! then keep us in the know. It looks like you've chosen a good candidate.

This is already the 2nd day of its bloom though, and we haven't seen the disk florets yet. By the time the disk florets come, the stigmas might be over 7 days, so I don't know if it will work.... oh well, we'll see.

"...the stigma are most receptive the first days after blooming. In fact, I read that if a zinnia has been open for seven days, many of the still exposed stigma will not accept pollen."

Depending on how double a zinnia bloom is, new petals can continue to emerge for many days, for two weeks or more. Regardless of whether a petal opens on day one or day 14, the stigma that emerges with it is fresh and optimally receptive. But I have had reasonable success pollinating "overlooked" stigmas that are hidden in the lower petals for up to two weeks after their original appearance. Many double zinnias tend to hide the stigmas of older petals as newer petals continue to emerge. If the stigma is still yellow, it has a chance of being pollinated. So the timing of pollination is not very critical. However, yesterday's pollen isn't good.

In the book Flower Breeding and Genetics in chapter 12, ZINNIA, written by Dennis Stimart and Thomas Boyle, in section 5.2 Pollination and Fruit Development, on page 343 it says,

"In Z. angustifolia and Z. violacea, pollen germination and pollen tube penetration of the stigma occurs within 10 to 20 minutes after cross-compatible pollination, and pollen tubes traverse the full length of the style in the majority of florets by 30 minutes after pollination (Boyle and Stimart, 1986). Unpollinated pistils of Z. violacea can remain turgid for [greater than or equal to] 3 weeks after the stylar lobes reflex. Pollen is capable of germinating on stigmas up to 20 days after the stylar lobes reflex, but the likelihood of seed set diminishes as pistils age (Miyajima, 1995). Yakima (1995) found that percent seed set was [approximately equal to] 100% when Z. violacea florets were pollinated on the day stylar lobes reflexed (day 0) but decreased to [approximately equal to] 50% by day 8, and to [approximately equal to] 20% by day 13. Like in other Asteraceae taxa, pollen of zinnia is trinucleate and is probably short-lived (<1 day at [greater than or equal to] 20 °C)(Hoekstra, 1973, 1983).

Zinnias are relatively easy to cross-pollinate. Disc florets need to be removed with a pair of broad-tipped forceps to prevent selfing unless the female parent is either fully double or a femina type (see section 6.1) Pollen is then applied to pistillate ray florets on the emasculated parent. Forceps are used to remove disc florets from the paternal parent and pollinate the stigmas of the pistillate ray florets."

That section continues on, to discuss the details of zinnia seed formation, development, maturation and the commercial production of zinnia seed.

MM

A word of explanation about the quotation from the book. The book used some mathematical symbols that I didn't know how to enter at the time I typed the message, so I replaced them with words enclosed in square brackets. For example, the book said ¡Ö which is the symbol for "approximately equal to". The book also said ¡Ý (the symbol for greater than or equal to). Actually, there are techniques for entering Unicode symbols, but I am still learning them.

MM

I messed up the entry of those symbols, the "approximately equal to" symbol ¡Ö and the "greater than or equal to" symbol ¡Ý

I am still just learning this stuff.

MM

After our 8.2 inch overnight rainfall followed a 2 month drought, my only two surviving scabiosas have bloomed. It appears that they are going to be the absolute simplest of daisy flowers. The same seems true of my 'Lavender Gem' giant dahlia flowers. On the plus side, one of them is a lavender I've never seen in zinnias.

My reference is: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/
I used the hexadecimal representation where it's written as (ampersand, route sign, x) followed by the hex code followed by a semicolon. There is no space between them.

I forgot that this forums Preview Message is not a preview of the message that will appear, but a preview of the HTML that will be executed to create the message that will appear. I am going to have to do a little experimentation with Unicode to see if it is feasible to enter it in the forum messages. This will look like the HTML code for the "approximately equal to" symbol in the Preview Message window for me (nothing like the symbol), &asymp; so hopefully it will look like the actual symbol in the message. Fingers crossed.

MM

MM

I have requested Flower Breeding and Genetics through interlibrary loan. It used to be on reserve and unavailable for loan, but now it is available. I can check information for you guys when it arrives (it is on transit now and should arrive pretty soon).

Curiously, your "I'm wondering if these symbols might work:
approximately equal to ≅ and
greater than or equal to ¡Ý " appears differently in IE7 and Firefox 3.0.1. Firefox displays your "approximately equal to" symbol as an equal sign with a wiggly bar above it. And your "greater than or equal to" is displayed correctly. IE7 displays two thin vertical lines for the first symbol and the second symbol is displayed correctly. This browser dependency just makes the mystery deeper to me. Because I can get both symbols exactly correct in the forum message window in IE7. It is just when I hit "Preview Message" or "Send Message" that things go haywire.

MM

Well, my html knowledge is pretty much zero......so I can't
offer any insight there...

But, my July Bonnet seeds are being harvested, and are kind of interesting.. That is, there are two kinds, and different than I've seen before. There are the seeds coming from the ray flowers, looking like the usual seeds; then there are the seeds coming from the curly central flowers (not really disk flowers) --little fat yellow seeds mostly or more often, totally, enclosed in a chaffy scale, kind of a husk-like effect.

JG

Those seed pictures are further evidence that your July Bonnet specimen is truly unique. Give them extra special care when you plant them next spring. Each plant should have plenty of space.

MM

Here is a picture of some of my Water Spikes ready for insertion by selected zinnia breeders.

The remnants of Hurricane Hanna are apparently in the area, but I think I will install the last of the Water Spikes today anyway.

MM

I had always assumed that whatever I'm seeing on my monitor is what everyone else is seeing, but sadly I'm learning differently.
Thank God, I have some young friends who can help me on the computer.

Those spikes are a good idea. I've only been catering to two of my plants by watering and fertilizing. I will have to invest in some of the cones, and that will probably be for next year. We actually got quite a bit of rain in the last day from what was once Hurricane Gustav, and the plants are doing their best to take advantage of the moisture. A combination of rain and cloudy skies can do a lot to bring the garden back to life!

JG

MM, yes, I will plant all of my special saved seeds with plenty of space, not in my usual zinnia jungle. Probably I will start seeds individually in peat pots early in the season as I did some of my zinnias this past spring. I am really looking forward to seeing how some of the traits are passed to the next generation!

Tonight I found a flower whose stem had broken , so I brought it in and was able to get some mature seeds from near the base. I thought the petals made it look a bit like a rose, rather than a zinnia!

JG

I have never seen zinnia petal structure like that. It does remind me of a rose. I wonder how much like a rose zinnias could become.

We're getting a heavy rain now. They expect one to two inches of rain overnight.

When a zinnia stem or branch is partially broken, you can splint it. I use two pieces of 2" wide green Velcro tape to make a splint.

Well, now that it is raining I have gotten all of my Water Spikes deployed. I wish I had bought more of them when they were cheap. While I am inside because of the rain, I will use this free time to make some more nets. I never seem to have enough of them.

MM

I am not sure about zinnias. I can see the star-like thingies. They are yellow since they first appear, but when I touched them, I didn't get any yellow "powder" on my hand. I waited another day, and I could see some "powder" on them but not a lot (at least not like the whole thing was covered by yellow pollen).

Are they ready at that stage? Or should I wait even longer?

Thanks.

"In the center of that 5-prong is is some yellow powder. Is the 5-prong thing the flower and the yellow powder in the center the pollen?"

Yes, the "five prong thing" is a floret. Incidentally, it is not unusual for the florets to have six prongs or arms. Occasionally you may see a floret with more than six arms. I have seen a few odd ones with up to a dozen "arms".

When the floret first emerges from the center of the zinnia, it is a bulb-like structure formed by the arms closed in on each other. In half an hour on a sunny day or up to two hours on a cool cloudy day, the arms separate and extend to form the flower-like floret.

An hour or so after the arms open, the pollen is pushed up into the center of the floret. Use it then before the bees get at it or, to give yourself a little leeway, put a net over the bloom to keep the bees away from the pollen so that you can use it at your convenience. It isn't any fun racing with the bees.

But even though you protect the pollen (the yellow powder) from the bees with a net, use the pollen within a few hours. The pollen will not "keep" overnight. The next day new florets may appear.

Some zinnias never put out any florets, so they produce no pollen of their own. They are especially suitable to use as females, because you don't have to go to the trouble to emasculate them.

I personally don't think it is a good thing for a zinnia to produce a lot of pollen, but obviously a lot of people don't agree with me on that. The popular Zowie hybrid zinnia "throws pollen" like crazy, and it has won awards. But I breed my zinnias according to my own personal preferences, and I would throw a Zowie into my compost pile.

MM

I was looking at the wrong things then. The 5 prongs look like amaryllis's pollen sacks, so I thought they themselves would become completely fluffy.

But with your explanation, I see the pollens quite clearly now. Also, the disk florets of the one that I cut and brought inside (that I am not interested in breeding at all) have opened and showed the pollens.

For the ones outside, it looks like I can do some crossing today.

I am fairly impressed with the quality of Burpee's Burpeeana Giants strain and Burpee's Burpee Hybrids Mix. I still consign about 90% of them to the compost pile, but that isn't so bad, because about 99% of other zinnia strains get rejected. This is a current picture of a rich yellow Burpeeana Giant that has breeder status.

I see evidence that the seed growers for Burpee do a better job of roguing their zinnia fields. The Burpee Hybrids and Burpeeana Giants seeds cost more, but they are sort of worth it to me. I hope that Burpee continues to improve their zinnia offerings. Separate colors of Burpeeana Giants would be a welcome addition. Maybe we will see some progress in that direction in 2009.

MM

I wonder the direction seed companies will take in regard to zinnias. Stokes has already increased some prices and added zinnia selections. I can not tell that they have dropped any varieties, but that could happen at year's end. Their additions are mostly Z. marylandica.

Which reminds me; JG, how is it going with the cuttings?

HC is right. Zinnia seeds do not require any cold pretreatment. They germinate easily. You can gather the seedheads when they turn brown, or even before they turn entirely brown.

If you are planning to store them, it is important that they dry out before you take them apart and recover the seeds. I let the individual heads dry on paper plates or in paper bowls on shelves or anyplace out of the way where they can dry. I save the dried seeds in Ziploc® Snack Bags with a 3x5 card with notes about them. Under reasonable storage conditions, they remain viable for many years.

There is a "green seed" technique that has been discussed previously here. It saves you a few weeks when you are starting a second generation in the same year.

Most of my zinnia seeds germinate in 2 to 4 days, sometimes longer. Green seeds usually take a few days longer, but with them you are skipping a multi-week seed maturation stage in order to get a second generation started quickly.

There might still be time for a fall crop of zinnias for you this year, depending on when your killing frost comes. That would give you the opportunity to select some favorite specimens to save seed from, and you could practice pollinating and cross-pollinating them.

Oh, and welcome to these zinnia message threads. By reading them, you already have an introduction to raising zinnias as a hobby. I enjoy zinnia breeding because it is so fast-paced compared to breeding other flowers. Zinnias can give you some quick results. And it doesn't cost much to get started.

MM

"...if you get seed from Zinnias that were planted next to each other even though they're the same flower will you get true seed or just a different hybrid?"

Most of them will resemble the "same flower", although there will be natural variation, even within the same strain. Bees do quite a bit of pollination of zinnias, including cross pollination with nearby zinnias. When you grow a group of zinnias, you always have the opportunity to save seeds from "the pick of the litter". If you grow a lot of zinnias, the mathematical odds are that you will find something extra good. My strategy is to designate my best specimens as "breeders" and to self-pollinate and cross-pollinate among them. The not-so-good zinnias go to the compost pile, to reduce the chance that bees will use their pollen in a way that I wouldn't want.

"...our frost date is October 20, don't know if that is enough time?"

Probably not. That is only 41 days from now. I quit planting zinnia seeds about six weeks ago. Last year our killing frost didn't come until the early hours of October 29th, but that was several weeks later than our "average" date. It is likely that any zinnia seeds you planted today would "get nipped in the bud", as they say. But it doesn't hurt to experiment.

"how do store seed over winter ... at what temp is killing to the seed if any?"

Your main concern on zinnia seed is that they not get too hot. I store many of mine at room temperature, in drawers, which seems to work OK. Some of my more important seed are stored in a wine cooler that maintains about 55°F, which is probably about ideal. You could store them in your refrigerator, as long as they are protected from moisture in a sealed container of some sort. But I wouldn't store them in the freezer. I should experiment with a few seed in the freezer, because I notice that I get some "volunteer" zinnias in the Spring, which means that they survived our cold Maine Winter, with temperatures that are occasionally below zero.

MM

It's been busy at work, but I am back now, and MM, that orange cactus flower is a beautiful example! I think the funny thing among us zinnia people is that-- some of our family or friends may think that would be the perfect specimen to display indoors singly in a vase, but no! our flowers stay in the garden for crossing or/and seed collection. It used to be I would often bring my prettiest flowers in to display in an arrangement, but now they stay the duration in the garden--except for the Benaries, which always come up in large numbers in almost perfect form and are nice for cutting. I have also cut a few "bouquets" from my microgarden.

Hello, Dave and Josh! Good to see you here! As far as seed collecting, I have large numbers of flowers I like, so I often harvest them while the central part of the flower still has lots of color, then the petals at the base may be somewhat green, but have fattened up, and these can be dried indoors on a newspaper several weeks before long term storage at cool dry temperatures. I find a tight plastic container in our unheated garage is a good place--the temperature may go down as low as the forties. I get high rates of germination in the spring. For flowers for which I want to keep all of the seeds, I let the flower mature and start to turn brown, then I collect the seeds. This year, I have covered them with nets to protect the seeds from the goldfinches. I have several gallons of seeds collected for my mixed garden next year already, and just several handfuls of seed from flowers I have crossed by hand this summer.

My cutting in the bottle container did OK until I cut off all circulation and it essentially turned a wet brown and died. I probably should have taken extra measures to sterilize the soil and container here at home, and dip the whole cutting in disinfectant, then sterile water, then the diluted Physan 20. I will retry this when I get some Physan 20 from Worm's Way. I suspect it will be a bit of a challenge now that the plants are getting spots of mildew outside. And, if I do this, I want to to try maybe 2-4 cuttings total. I don't have super intense light here. Although from time to time, I think of asking to rent a small space in a local greenhouse for winter growing experiments.

JG

"I think the funny thing among us zinnia people is that-- some of our family or friends may think that would be the perfect specimen to display indoors singly in a vase, but no! our flowers stay in the garden for crossing or/and seed collection."

Exactly. My family sort of understands that now, but it does take some getting used to. Here is another specimen in my bed of Burpee Hybrids.

It is very similar to some of my recombinant spider-like specimens. But since it is not a recombinant, I am crossing Zig Zags and Whirligigs onto it with the hope there will be less recombinant uncertainty in the offspring. I have grown a lot of seed packet zinnias this year with the hope of deepening my gene pool.

MM

Another beautiful flower! This encourages me to order from Burpee seeds for the spring season next year. I had Burpeannas from Stokes (I think!) this year, but just a few. I think I will go to the actual source and order next time.

It will be interesting to see how the offspring of the two last flowers you have shown turn out!

JG

Here is yet another zinnia with some tubular petals.

This one appeared today among my Burpee Hybrids. I wonder if tubular petals are genetic or just a developmental aberration. Next year should answer that, as the progeny of these tubular specimens appear.

MM

I had been wondering if Burpee's Hybrid mix actually look like they do in their photo. http://www.burpee.com/product/annual+flowers/zinnias/zinnia+burpee+hybrids+mix+-+packet+(50+seeds).do
My two biggest disappointments this year came from Burpee ('Purple Prince' and 'Highlights'), but my '08 favorite also came from Burpee ('Starlight').

That is an interesting tubular flower. It will be good to see if that is a hereditary trait. I would think "in the wild" it would be selected against if the stigmas are so well-protected. MM, did you ever see any pollen coming from those "tubes"?

I have in my mixed a garden a cactus descendent that is interesting because the petals aren't stiff but are very thin and light and move easily. Sometimes the petals are toothed, and sometimes not.

JG

"I had been wondering if Burpee's Hybrid mix actually look like they do in their photo."

There are only 10 zinnias showing in that photo, and that is counting one that barely shows on the left-hand side. However, all of the zinnias in that photo have essentially the same flower form, namely down-curled curved petals, which is a rather modified form of the now-extinct "Fantasy Flowered" zinnias. Only these Burpee Hybrids are much larger. (The Fantasy zinnias were 3" to 3½" in diameter, with a few possibly 4".)

In a previous online listing for the Burpee Hybrids, their size was listed as 6" to 7" in diameter. (I have never seen a 7" zinnia, although on several occasions I have had 6" zinnias and a few 6¼" specimens.) I imagine that the 7-inch zinnias were so infrequent that customers complained and Burpee dropped that claim.

Any photo of a field mix of zinnias is only a small sample of what you will get. Zinnias are highly variable, particularly in field mixes. I would estimate that, counting the subtle nuances of color that zinnias are capable of, that there are over a hundred colors in the Burpee Hybrids strain.

And there are several flower forms, including their pictured form, which I usually refer to as "chrysanthemum flowered", and the classic "cactus flowered", and a form with long rather straight petals that I refer to as "linear flowered". This is a recent example of a linear flowered zinnia that appeared in my Burpee Hybrids bed.

Only about 5% of the Burpee Hybrids are "linear flowered", but I prize them highly and use them as breeders. A longer-petaled version of "linear flowered" would make a good variant to my objective of "spider flowered". I am still pursuing the spider flowered objective. Some specimens are close, but I want their petals to be longer. Much longer.

MM

"...did you ever see any pollen coming from those "tubes"?"

Yes, upon splitting those tubes to get at the enclosed stigmas to pollinate them, I have found anthers with some apparent pollen in them. That was a huge surprise to me. I had always supposed that the "bugle flowered" zinnia I originally mentioned was probably sterile and probably produced no viable seeds, but now I have serious doubts about that. It very well may have had a full head of seeds.

"I have in my mixed a garden a cactus descendent that is interesting because the petals aren't stiff but are very thin and light and move easily. Sometimes the petals are toothed, and sometimes not."

That one looks worthy of saving seeds from. Definite flower form possibilities there.

MM

"So what makes a breeder?"

Any zinnia that you like is a potential breeder for you. Your own tastes and preferences determine that. You are breeding zinnias for your own entertainment and enjoyment. If other people like your zinnias, that is OK, too. But you are the ultimate judge in your zinnia patch.

As you look at your zinnias carefully, you will see lots of little details that you might not have noticed previously. Some things you might like, and some things you might not like. As you notice more about zinnias, your goals may evolve. But in the meantime, save seeds from your favorites and, if you like, cross-pollinate between your favorites. Either way, your saved seed may produce some interesting results.

Thanks for the compliment about the rose flowered zinnia. I like it, too. Actually, I like all of the zinnias whose pictures I have posted. The ones I don't like are in my compost pile.

MM

James makes note of stem distance between 1st bloom and the next leaf/leaves below. Writing notes of multiple characteristics and keeping it enclosed with your saved seed is essential to advancing toward a goal. MM has ripple edged leaves and pays special attention to petal length and width. He avoids short zinnias and those that produce an excess of disk florets. (Knowing what you dislike or won't tolerate is important too.) JG takes note of special flower forms and is keeping us informed about her interspecific crosses. I rather like JG's recent cactus descendent that has easily movable petals. I have a lemon chiffon like that and flexibility makes slipping a protective net off and on much easier.
I like zinnias that produce a lot of blooms on each plant and can support them away from the ground. I also like every single photo I see on here, so I'll have to learn to focus toward fewer goals. However, I do wish to have more than one line of zinnias going simultaneously.

I agree with you that the wise thing to do is focus on fewer goals and set just a few priorities. I have so many packets of seeds from particular flowers I liked or of seeds from particular crosses this summer now, that my "project" is quickly getting out of control! I would guess I have at least 40 different sets of seeds to grow out next year! And, I also want to grow out a number of seeds I collect from the natural crosses resulting from this year's diverse garden! I have a gut feeling that offspring that result from chance crossings may far exceed anything I actually plan as far as interesting form and color combinations go. I think I'm done with spotting more interesting characteristics in the plants and let it go with what I have this season.

The important thing is good documentation. For the most part, we're dealing with multiple, multiple alleles for each character in these plants, and for me, I want to start getting at least a rough idea on the inheritance of some of the traits I'm seeing.

JG

For example, I am getting this one which pattern I like. The color itself is ok but it's too like marigold; but I assume this plant has the "gene" to produce bi-color pattern, so if I cross with purple, for example, I might get purple bicolor? (I do know about the first generation might not show but might carry to the 2nd generation etc...)

Then I have this one whose color and petal shape I like. I am thinking about crossing the two. Is there anything theoretical that we know about color pattern, or is it just a trial-and-error type of thing?

Thanks!

Z. violacea, Z. haageana, and Z. peruviana, all have 24 chromosomes. There are probably a very large number of active genes on those chromosomes, as well as a very large number of DNA code fragments from previously active genes. As far as I know, no one has done a zinnia genome yet, although it probably will be done.

"...how in the world do you stabilize a line of zinnia to breed true?"

You save seed only from selfed true-to-type specimens for four to six generations in a row. It is said that inbreeding beyond that number of generations can be harmful, although I wouldn't hesitate to experiment.

Or, you can always grow them from from cuttings. The clones will be identical, as you can see in the first message of It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6. Incidentally, I have been saving seedheads from that grouping.

MM

That looks like you may have a pink Persian Carpet. If so, that is quite a find. I have never seen that shade of pink in a Persian Carpet. I would definitely cross the two, but I would also self some of the stigmas on that pink specimen. You and JG are making me wish I grew some Persian Carpets and Aztec Sunsets this year.

MM

What kind of zinnia seeds were in the packet that gave you the above flowers? Were they Persian Carpets or some other kind? It's interesting to see what you are getting!

JG

JG, since my original seedlings were eaten by slugs, I just went to Walmart and bought a mixture packet. It is called "Mini-Zini Mixture." The description says "this mix of Thumbelina, Button Box, Pumila, and Lilliput combines four of the most compact Zinnia varieties available. Flower types are beehive, fully double and semi-double. Color range of pink, red, white, yellow, orange and scarlet."

The flowers are small though.

Well, the first one does look like a classic Persian Carpet to me. Did it come in the "Mini-Zini Mixture" or did it come from a Persian Carpet packet? The pink zinnia seemed to have a very similar flower form to the Persian Carpet above it. The petals had a similar shape and size, and had similar "notches" on the ends. I now understand that it is not a Persian Carpet, however, and its pollen florets are larger than on the Persian Carpet. A cross between the two still might be an interesting interspecies experiment.

I understand your problem with the camera not giving a true rendition of the mahogany color in the Persian Carpet. I have had serious problems of that sort with my Wife's Kodak digital camera. The only effective way I have found to deal with that is to take pictures in various degrees of shade, including deep shade. I have a choice breeder specimen of a Burpee Hybrid with an unusual vermilion with nuances of coral and cream. Its pictures came out "wrong" in every one of my full sun or partial sun pictures of it, so I never posted a picture of it.

Now that I know about taking pictures in shade, I might try again, but I am pretty busy with "end game" zinnia patch activities, so I may not get around to it. We have had several night temperatures in the low 40's, so a Killing Frost may be only a very few weeks (possibly days) away here.

MM

I did get a few more with some kind of notches on the ends, and I like them all. So many varieties of shapes: similar yet different.

You've got a really interesting mix of plants! You ought to save seeds from as many as you can to see what you get in the next generation. That little yellow one with the darker bands is usual for the kinds of varieties you thought you got in that mix, I'm pretty sure.

.....Makes me want to go down to Walmart here to see if they have any left-over seeds ;-).

JG

Dave, I meant to say earlier that the yellow flower with the darker bands was UNusual...interesting!

Brock, the flower you are showing is similar to the flower I showed earlier:

The petals roll upward, but they are not physically fused to form tubes like in MM's flowers. Nonetheless, even though it may take time to occur, I'll bet that the ability for the petals to roll up as they do is still an inherited tendency to do that in certain environmental conditions. Probably all of the zinnias you have are not doing that now....

JG

I really don't know for sure, but I think your rolled-up tubular orange zinnia is partly genetic and partly environmental. Like JG suggested, if it were purely environmental, all of your zinnias should be doing that now, and she and I both suspect that all of your zinnias are not doing that right now. Still, your orange zinnia has rolled up its petals enough that they look tubular, and a lot of up-rolled zinnia petals are not that extreme. You might want to save seeds from it.

The remnants of Hurricane Ike are apparently going to just miss us, but it rained here most of the day anyway, so I didn't get a lot done in my zinnia patch. I am encouraged that some of the foliar feeding that I did a few days ago had a good effect. I am becoming enthusiastic about the foliar feeding of zinnias, but you have to be careful to use a weaker solution on the flowers themselves, or you can burn the petals (as I did on some of them.) I took this picture of a Zig Zag a few days ago.

It has been foliar fed, and so have the zinnias behind it, so they have a healthy green look. It is "throwing" a little pollen, but I like the petals and the colors, so I am using it as a breeder.

MM

Back on Sunday, the last of Hurricane Ike came through with a lot of wind, flattening some of the zinnias here. That was just a little compared to what the folks in Texas are going through, so here we have a lot to be thankful for. Seed-collecting is coming to an end, as the bees have chosen other flowers, like the asters in the garden and the goldenrod in our fields that are blooming now. We do have a lot of butterflies though!

Here is probably the last of whirligigs. I don't have a lot of multi-petaled ones, like that of MM's, but mine here is also "throwing" pollen!

JG

That is a nice Whirligig. I like the overlap of the magenta and the yellow which creates a third color zone of scarlet.

We had a couple of days of high winds, too. A lot of my more spindly zinnias are down. Spindly zinnias are a disadvantage of close planting. Next year I will try to space mine out a bit better, and feed them some silicon for hopefully stronger stems. But I still like the general idea of denser planting accompanied by bloom-time culling. The more zinnias you grow, the better your chances are of finding something special. Bee activity here is also much reduced.

We have the possibility here of a frost tonight, so I will be taking a few cuttings today, and doing some more "end game" activities, like seed gathering and labeling.

MM

You're right about dense planting and spindly stems. I'm trying to get the most from my red scabious and July Bonnet zinnias, so gave both about a 2 yard radius clearance in all
directions of any neighboring plants, staked them, and sprayed with fungicide to at least hold back further mildew
on newly emerging shoots. I'll be taking cuttings of shoots, although honestly, I'm not sure how well I can keep them up! I am more of an outdoor than indoor gardener! Nonetheless, I'm tempted though to try and bring the whole plants inside and keep them in pots after pruning some. Have you done that (roots and all)? We should still have 2 to 3 more weeks before the first frost.

Here is a red scabious flower, taken earlier today. There are yet three more buds on this plant, and I am crossing now with red cactus zinnias, which are shedding lots of pollen even though unnetted because the bees are interested in other things now...

JG

That red scabi is very pretty, and red. The emerging white floret "bulbs" add a nice touch to the flower. The results of crossing it with a red cactus zinnia should be interesting. I would expect most of them to be red. The flower forms and plant habits could be most interesting. I've mentioned before that scabiosa flowered plants can be very well branched and bushy.

I took 14 cuttings today, as a partial insurance against our our frost advisory for tonight. This frickin' Maine climate! A freeze warning in the Summer! That just seems wrong.

MM

Well, the frost wasn't exactly killing, but it was chilling. My zinnias are quite resentful of the cold weather, and tonight is quite chilly too. If they don't die directly of freezing, their health will fail in the cold weather. I will do what I can to keep them going in a climate that is now not at all to their liking.

I mentioned that I had been seeing a lot of streaky mutants in my Whirligigs and Zig Zags. I have pulled a lot of them out because they look almost like some kind of epidemic, but some of them have promise.

Next year I may dabble with creating a strain from them. This example has a weird sort of "beauty", if you could call it that.

MM

Here is another of the streaky mutants.

I have already pulled that one. It was starting to look bad on the day I took this pic. Some "zinnia babies" look cute, but quickly lose their cuteness as they grow older.

MM

This one has a different sort of look, but is also a mutant.

There is enough variation in the mutants that I think, if they were inter-crossed, they could form a rather interesting strain with a lot of different looks.

MM

This one isn't exactly a streaky mutant, but I like its toothy petals, despite its other shortcomings.

I netted this one to save seeds from it.

MM

It is interesting at this stage, but I don't like it overall. It looks a bit like a carnivorous plant, that could fold its petals in on a bee. Who knows? Maybe a prehistoric proto-zinnia actually was carnivorous.

MM

Your collection of mutants is interesting. I can't help but wonder if possibly there isn't some kind of mobile element or virus to cause the color patterns of those, as in the Peppermint stick types--just a different sort of expression! I wondered the same when I saw it in a few of the streaked flowers I got, including July Bonnet this year-- kind of like the color "breaks" you see in the Rembrandt series tulips. Anyway, I think you could get some new and different looking flowers with these--interesting, too, to see what crosses with them would look like.

Your leaves look so nice and healthy! I have done nothing to take care of the leaves in the zinnias here, and I know for sure the dense plantings lead to mildew infestation or at least increase its incidence. I guess though that this presents a good opportunity to see which of my plants may have mildew resistance, and before I take them down, I will screen them for that. I notice the Profusions (not really my favorite of the flowers) are pretty mildew-resistant. Too bad they have such a strange chromosome number--not easy or even possible to cross, most likely.

It's a shame you have such a short season there in Maine! Our season here has been shortened by a dry stretch in July-August that left me with the plants browning up a lot, so mine are pretty much finished now too.

JG

I finally have a 'Red Spider' Z. tenufolia. There's only one and it's late, but I'm still pleased. It reminds me of the fire on a cigarette. I can't say that I see into its anatomy. I'm going to have to turn a bucket upside down and use it to help me back up off the ground.

Thanks for sharing photos. I like the "yet another" and the "carnivorous" ones. But I especially like the "toothy" one. It really looks like flames coming out from all sides!

I'm now sure my bees are resting/gone too because I find I still have pollen available until dusk. Also some very available flowers don't seem to be getting pollinated unless I do it. I have some of my best zinnias right now. The goldfinches seem to be gone and I'm seeing that there are now two hummingbirds. The disk fairy spider knows lots of tricks. It formed a 3/4" space capsule shaped like a Hersheys kiss, but adorned with perfectly spaced points. It captured a bumblebee and a green caterpillar.

"I can't help but wonder if possibly there isn't some kind of mobile element or virus to cause the color patterns of those, as in the Peppermint stick types--just a different sort of expression! I wondered the same when I saw it in a few of the streaked flowers I got, including July Bonnet this year-- kind of like the color "breaks" you see in the Rembrandt series tulips."

I wonder the very same thing. It is troublesome to me that the Rembrandt tulips owe their striped color patterns to a virus infection. I discontinued breeding with the striped and spotted zinnias (Peppermint, Candy Cane, etc) for that very reason. I am not particularly fond of the striped/spotted effect and I would be particularly displeased if it started popping up everywhere in my zinnia patch. The same concern is why I didn't immediately start breeding with the streaked variants that appear in my Whirligigs and Zig Zags.

"I notice the Profusions (not really my favorite of the flowers) are pretty mildew-resistant. Too bad they have such a strange chromosome number--not easy or even possible to cross, most likely."

I am not at all wild about the appearance of any of the Profusions or other Z. marylandica strains. Their colors fade rather rapidly and they have a rather limited variety of appearances.

I suspect you could cross within Z. marylandica, but their unique chromosome situation might interfere seriously with recombinations of traits. Their mildew tolerance has made them very popular with the plant-and-forget gardeners, and Profusions are a big commercial success for that reason. Their commercial profitability will insure new varieties and strains of Z. marylandica for years to come. But I breed zinnias for fun, and the Profusions don't look like much fun to me.

"Your leaves look so nice and healthy!"

Not so much anymore. My zinnias don't like flirting with frost every night.

"I have done nothing to take care of the leaves in the zinnias here, and I know for sure the dense plantings lead to mildew infestation or at least increase its incidence. I guess though that this presents a good opportunity to see which of my plants may have mildew resistance, and before I take them down, I will screen them for that."

When you say "zinnias", people immediately think of mildew. Powdery mildew. Would you believe that I haven't had a single case of powdery mildew this year? Still, even in this "end game" season, no mildew. Late last year, I had a single zinnia branch start to show some mildew, and I solved that problem instantly with a pair of scissors. That mildew took a ride to the landfill. Problem solved.

There are a lot of mis-perceptions about mildew on zinnias. A lot of zinnias actually have mildew because their gardeners have been told that water promotes mildew on zinnias. The truth is the exact opposite of that. Mildew spores cannot germinate in water, and wetting your zinnia leaves can be an effective mildew preventative. In support of that assertion, notice that in this National Gardening Association Q&A: Powdery Mildew on Zinnias, they say, and I quote:

"Powdery mildew is unique among common plant diseases in that it doesn't require a wet leaf surface to spread. It can thus thrive during hot, dry weather, which is why you see it appearing in August. The general advice to inhibit the spread of fungal diseases is to avoid wetting leaf surfaces. In the case of powdery mildew, you can actually inhibit infection with frequent sprays of water. Also, examine plants frequently, removing any affected foliage immediately."

The underlining in that quote is mine. Frequent foliar feedings can also be a strong deterrent to mildew. So can sprays. A favorite of mine is GreenCure®, which is an effective control of a long list of plant diseases. GreenCure has several advantages over more toxic fungicides.

The only zinnia diseases that have given me any problems are Alternaria Leaf Spot (Alternaria zinniae) and Bacterial Leaf Spot (Xanthomonas campestris pv. zinniae). I have been experimenting with Physan 20 foliar sprays as a preventative for them, with encouraging results. But the Physan 20 is preventative, and not curative. The spots on the leaves in this picture are probably Alternaria, but some could be bacterial.

I have noticed that in crowded growing conditions, inside or outside, the lower zinnia leaves that can't get any significant amount of light tend to die off, whether they have a disease or not. I haven't experimented yet to see whether foliar feeding those leaves with a sugar solution and a glycerin adjuvant could bypass their need for photosynthesis or not. I plan to do that next year. The techniques of growing healthy zinnias are in themselves an interesting hobby, with many interesting challenges and things to learn.

MM

I have a questions on spots on the petals. Are these genetic or is this is just a result of aging or some kind of disease? The is the same one that I had shown before. It was nearly white in the beginning but now it is pink with spots.

"I'm having to scroll again to read the edges."

Ironically, I am almost certainly the guilty party on that. All of our pictures are 986 pixels or less in width, but that "cute" little trick I pulled on Sun, Aug 31, 08 at 1:18, putting a small picture on each side of the text, very likely is causing your scrolling problem. I will open up a Part 8 in the near future, because our message count and picture load (also mainly my doing) are getting rather high here in Part 7. And I won't do that left/right picture trick again.

"The goldfinches seem to be gone and I'm seeing that there are now two hummingbirds."

Same here. Good riddance to the finches, as far as I am concerned. They are pretty, but they can wreak havoc with my zinnia seeds.

We've had at least two hummingbirds, but when two males appear at the same time, they seem to chase each other. Maybe that is a territorial thing.

"The disk fairy spider knows lots of tricks."

That spider is quite a character. (grin)

MM

"I have a questions on spots on the petals. Are these genetic or is this is just a result of aging or some kind of disease?"

I have seen those same spots repeatedly on some of my zinnia petals, usually on light pink petals. At this time, I am not certain whether they are genetic, environmental, or a disease. Or some combination thereof. That is an open question for me. As I get more experience with zinnias, I may learn or deduce the answer.

You have to be careful when you spray petals, or foliar feed them, because they are much more sensitive than the leaves to sprays.

If you are going to foliar spray your petals, you should cut the spray strength to only a quarter or less what you would spray on the leaves. I don't know whether that applies to sugar sprays or not. Lots of experiments to do.

MM

What is the benefit of sugar sprays? and do they not attract ants?

I believe the pink specks on Dave's "white" are pigment clusters, but that doesn't name the cause. I've had a couple of tiny "white' blooms this year that were pink by the 2nd day. I like the effect, but not the pink. When a third "white" appeared in the same mixed clump of volunteers, I paid little attention. When on the 2nd day a tiny orange flower stood in its place, my ears perked up. I followed its stem to the ground and tied a string there. I did the same with the pink "whites" (one plant). They had sprouted about one cm apart, causing me to believe they fell from a common parent. I intend to make a project of them unless they become speckled with time.

"What is the benefit of sugar sprays? and do they not attract ants?"

The plant leaves can absorb the sugar and use it as a food just as they do the sugar that they produce by photosynthesis. In cloudy weather, the zinnias produce less sugar by photosynthesis, which can limit their growth and their overall health. Sugar can be especially helpful then. I suspect it is also helpful in sunny weather. I will probably spray a lot more sugar next year, combined with my foliar feeding and disease prevention program.

I haven't noticed the foliar-fed sugar attracting any ants. The spray is diluted quite a bit (one or two tablespoons of sugar in a gallon) such that the coating of sugar that is left on the leaves is very thin. Almost microscopically thin. I doubt that their mouth parts could get any of the very thin coating, even if they tried. The only ants that I have seen on my zinnias were the aphid-tending variety, and they get a very concentrated "honey dew" from the aphids they tend. When they become especially numerous on a breeder zinnia flower, I spot-spray it to kill both the aphids and the ants. I use as little insecticide as possible.

MM

I am glad someone else is getting some of those mutants. I was beginning to wonder if all of my mutants were due to something in the water (grin).

Thanks for the offer of seeds from yours, but I haven't really decided to go for a strain of them yet. I do have misgivings about growing a lot of them. Those mutants are a novelty, but they don't impress me as particularly decorative. Most of mine are already in the compost pile.

Well, I guess it is time to start a new part to this message thread. See you all over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 8.

MM

Welcome to zinnia growing and this series of message threads about zinnias as a hobby. I see that you live in India, and that you just recently registered here on GardenWeb. Your experiences with zinnias in India will be most interesting to us, since most of us here live in the United States and we don't know what it is like growing zinnias in India.

You said on Day 2 of your blog that "I have read on internet it takes eight to ten weeks for Zinnia to bloom..." and that may be true of some zinnias in some places, but I have had some of my hand-pollinated zinnias bloom indoors under fluorescent lights as early as 5 to 6 weeks. We will be interested to see how your zinnias do in India.

We are so glad to have you here. As it happens, you have entered this series of message threads back in one of its earlier parts. You can follow the "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias" message series forward up to the present time by clicking on the "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 8" hyperlink in the message just above your message and you can read backwards in the series by clicking on the "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6" hyperlink on very first message in this thread. All of these threads are connected by hyperlinks head-to-tail and tail-to-head to make it easy to read forward or backward in the series. Actually, we are now in Part 11, and we look forward to more messages from you over there.

Incidentally, I have since moved from Maine to Kansas late last year, so I have changed my identity from MaineMan to ZenMan. We look forward to learning from you about what it is like to grow zinnias in India.

ZM