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zen_man

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 15

zen_man
13 years ago

Greetings all,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this ongoing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 14, is becoming rather long and slow to load, so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. As always, you are encouraged to post your pictures, but as a courtesy to readers with smaller monitors, try to keep the pictures posted no wider than 986 pixels.

This picture is 986 pixels wide, and it shows one of my current recombinant hybrid zinnias. I refer to this zinnia as a "Shaggy Dog".

{{gwi:21814}}
The two blooms shown here are on the same plant, showing that as the bloom develops, the petals grow longer and hang down, while the newer petals have a particularly twisted look. I am hoping to get seeds from this specimen, with the goal of eventually creating a strain of "shaggy dog" zinnias. The shaggier, the better. I have a lot of zinnia goals.

ZM

Comments (100)

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi all,

    Still no tissue culture shoots. However, the explants aren't exactly dead and they have expanded in size considerably. I guess they are in a "zombie like" state. Perhaps it's just callus tissue. Lots more experiments to do there, starting with a stronger dose of shoot-inducing growth hormone.

    I saved seeds from the "Pink Shaggy Dog" blooms, and found that they are rather unusual, being, for the most part, much skinnier than most zinnia seeds.

    {{gwi:21860}}
    That isn't all of my Shaggy Dog seeds, but it is a pretty good sample. Some of those seeds are almost as thin as marigold seeds, but brown instead of black like marigold seeds are.

    In past years I have saved and planted the skinny zinnia seeds because petal shape seems to correlate with seed shape, and I need long, slender petals to get "spider flowered" zinnias. However, in past years I have had very low germination success with the skinny seeds.

    Perhaps tissue culture can help with this problem. I plan to experiment with the tissue culture germination of small weak zinnia seeds (not the Shaggy Dogs), in order to develop a successful germination procedure (tissue culture protocol).

    If and when I get a TC germination technique that works, I will try it on some of my skinny Shaggy Dog seeds next Spring. I might try a few this Winter.

    Now, when I am saving zinnia seeds, I keep some of the unlikely small weak ones to experiment with, with the idea that tissue culture might "save" them. If it works, that will be somewhat similar to the Tissue Culture "embryo rescue" application.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    Your cuttings look wonderful! At the very last minute, I decided to try to get some cuttings to take root, too, following your protocol. By last minute, I mean it was the day before our first expected frost, my plants were covered with mildew, and the only shoots worth even trying were those with flower buds. I started six cuttings, and still have four left. I think the ones I lost were overwhelmed with moisture, and their stems in the media just died (turned brown). Although the tops were still green, I threw them out. The last four were doing OK, and I then cut off the flower buds. That may have been a mistake, as I believe the wounds set the plants back! Anyway, the cuttings don't nearly look as nice as yours, but they are surviving. If it seems they are actually starting to thrive, I will post a photo! They do have a few roots. I started them out in only Perlite as the medium, then after two weeks switched over to an organic peat/Perlite mix.

    Interesting that the Shaggy Dog seeds are skinny, but then, you have a flower form that is different, so it makes sense that the seeds may be different, too. This past season, I was a little surprised with the Extreme Roll seeds. I sorted them out according to size--I didn't have many seeds coming from the flowers with the needle-like petals, about 50 to 60 (there were many more from the sibs without that phenotype). At any rate, I expected the fattest seeds would give me the best chance of germination, so I planted them all out, fat seeds first, then seeds I really didn't think would make it. These were the skinny, narrow seeds that seemed to be unfertilized or immature, but that I didn't want to discard (they made up the majority of seeds, so--just in case!). Anyway, I was surprised to find that the smaller seeds were the ones that had the highest rates of germination! We'll see what happens this coming season.

    The tissue culture is really challenging, but if anyone gets it to work with zinnias, I am sure it will be you. I know the general theme of amplifying, and then regenerating, corresponds with starting with relatively high amounts of auxin to amplify the material (callus), then reducing the concentration of auxin to get root formation, then gradually continuing on with a high auxin/cytokinin ratio, followed by reducing that ratio (with higher concentration of cytokinin) to get shoot formation. You don't really need light if you have adequate medium to support the cell growth until you start trying to induce shoot formation. Often the composition of the medium is critical in getting the plant material to respond the way you want, not even considering the hormones! It looks like Smith was able to get good shoot amplication using just BAP (cytokinin), and after that, getting roots with no auxin at all under certain conditions. Probably he was trying to avoid callus formation in his case.

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Many of my cuttings are doing fine, but the cuttings in the first two trays that I planted starting dying after a few days. At first I was baffled, but then I examined the package of Dip 'n Grow that I was using, and discovered that it had expired years ago. I bought a fresh bottle, and the trays I used it on seem to be doing fine. Apparently the first two trays just didn't develop roots. Oh well.

    Anyhow, I now have several trays of cuttings, some of which are blooming. That's pathetic. I have some Z. violacea blooms that look like Z. marylandica. I need to remove those blooms and start thinking about re-potting those cutting plants. I also plan to plant some indoor zinnia seed and expand my indoor growing capacity. I should have an ample supply of living zinnia material to use with my ongoing Tissue Culture experiments.

    I got no shoots in that first batch that had "African Violet Leaf" culture medium with sugar and BAP. Some of the explant tissue expanded a lot, almost like a callus growth, but no shoots. This is a picture of what that original small brown speck explant now looks like.

    {{gwi:21861}}
    It doesn't show in the picture, but there are some greenish areas in that tissue. My next batch of BAP culture medium will contain a lot higher concentration of BAP. I also have a small amount of TDZ (Thidiazuron) and Kinetin to experiment with. I am a little skeptical about the Kinetin (some people have reported that it is a weak cytokinin). But I am a little more optimistic about the TDZ. We shall see what we shall see.

    I finished harvesting the last of my outdoor zinnia seed yesterday, and cleared out the last of the dead zinnia plants. We have an impending cold rain moving in today. My zinnia patch looks kind of unusual with just bare ground and zinnia cages everywhere.

    "I was surprised to find that the smaller seeds were the ones that had the highest rates of germination!"

    Very interesting. I have been "shucking" some of my seedheads, and every now and then I will find a very tiny seed that feels "full" in the pinch test. I think that these "micro" seeds probably wouldn't germinate, because it is hard to imagine the tiny plant that would emerge. My guess is that they may contain a small embryo but little, if any, endosperm. It recently occurred to me that I could insert these tiny seeds into some of the tissue culture medium (I still have several babyfood jars with that original batch of African Violet Leaf medium.)

    So, with that in mind, and your report of success with small seeds in a normal plant out, I am now saving small seeds that I would have normally discarded. As I mentioned previously, TC may be able to perform "embryo rescue" on these tiny seeds. I am really warming up to the idea of Tissue Culture as a part of my zinnia hobby.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    Your example of zinnia tissue culture looks pretty good! I can't see if you have any root formation, but the callus you have looks promising! The glossy globular part of the callus that is also fairly light-colored may be divided with a sharp edge like a sterile razor or scalpel and replaced into the jar, I would guess (no zinnia experience here!) It looks like you have three sections there that you could use. When the callus starts getting dark-colored, it may be starting to die, possibly because it doesn't have good access to the medium. But you would call the callus you have that is light-colored, shiny and rounded, "embryogenic." When you expose the tissue to light, then the light signals the tissue to produce chloroplasts and the plant tries to take care of itself, rather than strictly rely on the medium for nutrients. You can see small projections where the material is greenest, and those are probably potential little shoots forming. At any rate, you can see how potentially one piece of tissue may be cloned and allowed to produce three or more plants if all goes well. The little projections on the callus represent (attempted) regeneration of shoots and/or roots that hopefully with time will continue to develop..thanks so much for sharing your results!

    I'm sure my cuttings aren't doing so well because I took shoots that weren't in such good shape to begin with, but I'm glad you mentioned the expiration date of the Dip'n Grow..I checked mine , and it is at the end of 2012, so it's not a good explanation for the small roots on my plants.

    Anyway, I look forward to seeing how your tissue culture goes! You can use the seed material (can remove seed coat carefully with fine sandpaper, then surface sterilize and remove embryo to put on solid medium). You should get callus similar to what you have now and may be able to divide it, too...many plants from one!

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    That particular zinnia tissue culture explant may not produce any shoots, but it isn't a total failure, because the explant apparently wasn't dead, or infested with anything. And it grew, "after a fashion."

    Several of my indoor cuttings plants have bloomed, of all things, as you can see in this picture.

    {{gwi:21862}}
    The indoor blooms are different looking from my outdoor zinnias, probably because the cutting plants are much smaller than the outdoor plants. I don't intend to leave the blooms on the plants, but I may use parts of them as wildly experimental explants. (I probably can't regenerate zinnia plants from a petal, but I'll try anyway.) Some of the indoor blooms have "small plant" features that are attractive.

    {{gwi:21863}}
    Several of those precocious indoor blooms have an "un-zinnia-like" look that I like. It's time to re-pot those plants, and I need to improve my lighting. A couple of my fixtures went dark. I probably need to replace their fluorescent ballasts. I am using inexpensive fluorescent shoplights as my lighting sources, so their cheap ballasts don't last a long time. I have a few spare ballasts on hand, and I ordered some better replacement ballasts today. Actually, dinking around with rebuilding fluorescent light fixtures is kind of fun for me, but I wouldn't recommend it to everyone. More later.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    Hope you had a happy Thanksgiving! We did here, although the rainy weather has turned very cold! But today, we are getting some sun again.

    How refreshing your indoor flowers look! The pastel colors are such reminders of the spring that will be here in a little fewer than (four!) months!

    I would not give up on a callus such as the one you showed. I hope you didn't throw it away! It probably does need to be subdivided so that different parts of it have more access to the medium, as there are no elements formed yet that can transport nutrients efficiently. With time, you may very well get the regeneration of plant parts (roots and shoots). And, of course, you may get some interesting variation in the phenotype that may or may not also be inherited! That callus material must be given some time--six weeks would not be unreasonable! Anyway, I think it shows some promise based on the observations I have had with monocot tissue culture.

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    We did have a happy Thanksgiving, and I am glad that you and yours did as well. It has been quite cold here, 21 degrees this morning. One of the indoor blooms was of a "toothy" specimen.

    {{gwi:21864}}
    I really like the way those petals are sculptured. That one apparently has some Whirligig genes.

    Vesey's has discontinued their bicolor/tricolor Zig Zag strain, but I was able to purchase some of their remaining stock from this year. I did that because, three years ago in Maine, I saw some significant differences between Zig Zag and Whirligigs in the garden. Not that either was superior to the other, but just that the two together gave a wider range of variation than either did alone. I plan to grow a sizable plant-out of both Whirligig and Zig Zag next Spring.

    Don't worry, I am saving that callus, because it is no problem just leaving it on the shelf. But I need to take some more explants to get more of these attempts in progress. I need to get beyond the callus stage, so I will try a higher concentration of BAP and some other cytokinins as well, like TDZ and Kinetin. More later.

    ZM

  • jeanne
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I know I'm in over my head here and my question has probably already been answered but I hope you'll indulge me here. A couple of years ago I traded for seeds of Swizzle, the orange and yellow flowers I grew looked pretty much like the pictures I found on the web and I was really happy with them.
    {{gwi:21865}}
    I saved the seeds, but when I grew them out last year the seedlings varied wildly:
    {{gwi:21866}}
    {{gwi:21867}}
    {{gwi:21868}}
    {{gwi:21869}}

    I've saved seeds from the white one and the pink/orange one, say I grow the white ones seperately next year, if half of those turn out white and I pluck out the others, will those Zinnias will it be the start of a new strain? Or are Zinnias just inclined to change and evolve?

    Like I said before, I'm sorry if this has already been asked, but it's 15 threads, lol!

    Thanks in advance,
    Jeanne

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanna,

    "I've saved seeds from the white one and the pink/orange one, say I grow the white ones separately next year, if half of those turn out white and I pluck out the others, will those Zinnias will it be the start of a new strain?"

    That will be the start of a new strain, although you will probably see some more interesting off-type specimens along the way. Since you traded for seeds of Swizzle, the seeds you got were probably already recombinants (not Swizzle) and possibly crossed by bees with some other zinnias growing in the vicinity of the person who saved the seeds from the Swizzle. I would not have expected your white zinnia to come from Swizzle. I would expect that you will get some white zinnias from its seeds, and if you save seeds from those white zinnias you will be on your way toward creating a strain of white zinnias. It takes several generations of culling and re-selection to get a reasonably purified strain. But obviously it is possible to get purified separate colors of zinnias, because commercial strains are available.

    "Or are Zinnias just inclined to change and evolve?"

    Zinnias are bee-pollinated, and bees do a fair amount of accidental cross-pollination by traveling from flower to flower. For that reason, commercial separate-color zinnia strains are grown in separate fields. The bees still do a lot of cross-pollination, but it doesn't hurt because they are crossing zinnias that have the same color.

    It is more difficult for home growers like you and me to grow zinnias in isolated plots, because we don't have access to widely separated fields like the commercial growers do. But we can try to do the best we can with what is available to us. It occurred to me this year that I didn't have any really good white zinnias. I had a few whites, but they were medium sized. This odd one was not pure white, but it had its leaves and branches in an unusual "plan of three".

    {{gwi:21870}}
    That variation occurs occasionally and I refer to them as "threesies" and label their seeds as "3Z" (but unfortunately they don't come true from seed.) This is one that looks somewhat like your white, but mine has less dramatic petals.

    {{gwi:21871}}
    That one was only about 5 inches across, and I think its color is more of an ivory than pure white. I would like to have some giant (six inches or larger) pure whites in interesting flower forms. White zinnias look good in the evening, and they make nice pastel colors when you cross them with other colors. So next year I plan to have a separate white zinnia garden. I purchased a bunch of white cactus flowered zinnia seeds, and I plan to plant them in their separate garden and cull out everything but the very best to save seeds from. And I will probably hand-pollinate and cross-pollinate some of the choicest specimens.

    My white zinnia patch will be over 50 feet from my main zinnia garden, and hopefully that will cut down on the mixing of the two by the bees. To help with that, I hope to perfect my zinnia "hairnets" to work in this windy Kansas environment. When they stay on a zinnia flower, they do a good job of preventing bee access. But this year, hairnets that worked fine in Maine blew all over the place here.

    Incidentally, that is an interesting set of zinnia pictures that you posted. I look forward to more pictures from you.

    ZM

  • jeanne
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    Thank you so much for the prompt reply.

    Since you traded for seeds of Swizzle, the seeds you got were probably already recombinants (not Swizzle)

    Correct, my trader told me these were seeds he collected from Swizzle and wasn't sure if they would come true. It's interesting that all of those 2nd generation plants I grew looked like Swizzle and all the third generation were different. I would have expected more variety from the beginning.

    I feel like I'm on a mission now, I'd really like to stabilize a strain with that yellow/orange/pink combo that I love so much. I'm not reinventing the wheel here, am I? The only Zinnias I've found with that color combo appear to be hybrids.

    I do wish I'd found this thread earlier in the year, I had no idea you could take cuttings from Zinnias. Are these going to planted out next spring, or are you just extending the bloom time for your (and our) enjoyment? I thought Zinnias were true annuals, are they actually tender perennials?

    On an aside note, I'd like to mention that while I've never done any TC, I've done hundreds and hundreds of rose cuttings over the years. And it is possible to use too much growth hormone. When you mentioned that your cultures are callousing well but not showing signs of growth, too much hormone immediately springs to my mind. If I have cuttings in the field that look great but just sit there while their bedmates have grown enough to pot up, I'll dig those up to check out the root system. Sometimes they are just slow to get started, sometimes they rot below the soil line and get dumped into the burn pile. Occasionally I'll find something that looks like cauliflower growing from the bottom of the cutting. That's from too much hormone. If I pare 95% of that callous off and replant, it will grow on at least 50% of the time. And I'm not even sure if that relates to TC at all, but I just wanted to throw that out there for you to consider.

    I look forward to more pictures from you.

    I will be happy to share more pictures when I get them, I've enjoyed yours immensely. You have some really stunning specimens and I love your camera angles. Your pictures make me think to take more care when I take pictures next year. Thanks for that.

    Jeanne

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanne,

    "The only Zinnias I've found with that color combo appear to be hybrids. "

    I have good news for you. There are commercial strains of non-hybrid bicolor and tricolor zinnias, in an almost endless number of color combinations. I am referring to Whirligigs, Carrousel, and Zig Zag zinnias. And, because they are not F1 hybrids, their seeds are relatively inexpensive. I bought a quarter pound of Whirligig from Stokes, which is currently priced at $14.60. That will plant a lot of zinnias. Those strains are relatively stable, so crosses with them are reasonably predictable and you can purify them by saving seeds from your favorites. In the past years I have had a lot fun growing Whirligigs and Zig Zags. I think Carrousel was simply a re-named Whirligig.

    Until this year, Johnny's Selected Seeds carried Carrousel and mentioned that it was also known as Whirligig, but I notice they have discontinued it. Burpee did carry a "fully double" strain of Whirligig, but they discontinued it. And Zig Zag has been discontinued by Veseys Seeds, although I think you can still order it by telephone from the small amount of Zig Zag seed stock left from the 2010 season. Zinnia seeds keep relatively well, so I didn't hesitate to order some Zig Zag from Veseys a few weeks ago. Veseys is a Canadian seed company with a USA branch, but my Zig Zags came from Canada, so their was a two-week delay in the shipment while it cleared Customs. I intend to grow a whole bed of Zig Zags next Spring, and a big bed of Whirligigs as well.

    I have grown Whirligigs and Zig Zag at the same time and, although there were similarities, it seemed that each strain had some specimens that the other lacked. So I like to include both Whirligigs and Zig Zags in my grow-out of commercial zinnia strains. Some Whirligig strains have "run out" to mostly single or semidouble forms in un-rogued fields. Single Whirligigs can actually look very nice, as is indicated by this description of Whirligig at Parks. Don't pay any attention to the word "hybrid" in that description -- Whirligig had a hybrid origin but all of its commercial offerings are open pollinated. You don't get F1 hybrid zinnia seeds for one or two pennies per seed.

    "I feel like I'm on a mission now, I'd really like to stabilize a strain with that yellow/orange/pink combo that I love so much. I'm not reinventing the wheel here, am I?"

    You might find that combination in a relativly big planting of Whirligigs or Zig Zags, but it isn't available as a separate strain. When you found it, you could self it and be well on your way to creating a strain of it. Also, you can get some really nice results by crossing Whirligigs or Zig Zags with solid-colored zinnias. And I don't hesitate to "re-invent the wheel" myself. When I was a kid, they always advised me that "practice makes perfect", so my view is that repeating the creation of a particular zinnia wouldn't necessarily be a waste of time.

    I think there are a lot of good opportunities to transfer the bi-color and tricolor combinations from the Whirligigs and Zig Zags to other flower forms, like cactus flowered. This zinnia was the result of a Whirligig x Cactus zinnia cross.

    {{gwi:21872}}
    It was approximately the color combination that you like. This recombinant had similar coloration, and I think it had a scabiosa flowered grand parent.

    {{gwi:21873}}
    I like new flower forms in zinnias, and this is a flower form that I refer to as "aster flowered".

    {{gwi:21874}}
    The aster flowered flowerform has long narrow petals. I also like "spider flowered" flowers, like this one.

    {{gwi:9994}}
    Actually, for spider flowered, I am wanting something with longer thinner straighter petals that are down-rolled to form little tubes. I'll be looking for some better spider flowered breeders next Spring. I think they would look great in a bi-color. Imagine a very deep purple with white tips. In a dim light, all you would see would be the tips. Gardeners are an optimistic lot, and I am no exception. Next year's garden is always going to be the "best yet."

    ZM
    (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanne,

    "I had no idea you could take cuttings from Zinnias. Are these going to planted out next spring, or are you just extending the bloom time for your (and our) enjoyment?"

    I am extending the bloom time so that I can get more seeds from them. They were some of my favorite breeders this Fall, and I want to get as much progeny from them as possible.

    "I thought Zinnias were true annuals, are they actually tender perennials?"

    That's a good question. Most people would say that they (Z. violacea, formerly called Z. elegans) are annuals. But I have successfully taken cuttings from cutting plants, so I don't know how far that could be continued. If repeated generations of cuttings are successful, is a zinnia plant potentially immortal? Or will some kind of genetic programmed death mechanism kick in? I don't know. Is a rose plant considered to be immortal?

    "And I'm not even sure if that relates to TC at all, but I just wanted to throw that out there for you to consider."

    Thanks for your experiences with rose cuttings. My problems with zinnia tissue culture could be too much cytokinin or too little or the wrong cytokinin. I might need to use a different nutrient formula. I have a lot more experimentation to do this Winter. Fortunately I have some zinnias growing indoors to provide a source of zinnia explants for those experiments. I haven't tried TDZ (thidiazuron) yet, and I think that is what I will try next. My game plan is to try to get shoots first and then move those shoots to a medium that contains a rooting hormone to get those shoots to form roots. Shoots then roots. So my first objective is to get those shoots.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello ZM, Jeanne, and everyone else who reads this thread!

    Merry Christmas! and best wishes for a Happy 2011, with lots of happy gardening to anticipate! And gorgeous zinnias! Please, everyone, post your photos...I know we all enjoy viewing them!

    ZM, hope your Shaggy Dog continues to thrive!
    More in the coming year!!

    Cheers!
    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello JG, Jeanne, and everyone else who reads this thread!

    Have a happy Christmas, a merry New Year, and best wishes for a fun gardening year in 2011. I picked this picture as a "Santa Claus zinnia".

    {{gwi:1737}}
    It is one of the Zig Zags that I grew in Maine back in 2008. Time flies when you are having fun. Here's to more fun in 2011!

    ZM

  • caricapapaya
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM, JG and all,

    I have never been that interested in Zinnias, but this series of posts has really sparked my interest.

    I have always been interested in breeding, and these posts have been full of inspiring pictures and information.

    I have a fair amount of experience in TC also, so if you have questions about that aspect, please ask. And post your results.. This is awesome!

    Thanks

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    caricapapaya,

    Welcome to this zinnia discussion. I hope that you will decide to experiment with zinnias. The more the merrier.

    Fruit flies have historically been a subject of genetics experiments, because they breed so rapidly. To a certain extent, zinnias are like "fruit flies" of the plant kingdom, because they grow so rapidly and let you see the results of your crosses in the same year that you did the cross pollination. Based on your Zone 10, I presume that you have a long growing season that would be amenable to many zinnia experiments.

    A lot of zinnia variations interest me, and tubular petals like the specimen shown above on Tue, Oct 12, 10 at 2:01 can produce interesting flower forms. This is an earlier example.

    {{gwi:21875}}
    Tubular petals in zinnias are relatively rare, and Tissue Culture of such specimens could help lead to a strain of zinnias with tubular petals.

    We will be asking for and welcoming your insights and opinions in Tissue Culture, because I think that TC can provide some exciting possibilities for our zinnia hobby. My near term TC objective is still the micropropagation of unique zinnia specimens. I haven't gotten that down yet, but I think my initial concentration of BAP was probably much too low. My next batch of medium will contain about ten times as much BAP. My first batch of TC medium used a formula for the micropropagation of sections from an African Violet leaf. Since African Violets can be propagated from leaf cuttings without the aid of Tissue Culture, that formula probably had a very weak dose of BAP. To my knowledge, zinnias won't propagate from leaf cuttings, although it would be nice if we could do that. Perhaps TC will make that possible.

    Also, I'll be trying some TDZ as a potentially more potent alternative to BAP. Other available cytokinins (zeatin, kinetin, 2ip, PBA) could be the basis for a lot more zinnia experiments.

    And there are some other exciting roles that Tissue Culture could have in the zinnia hobby. The embryo rescue of ambitious hybrids, haploid zinnias that could be converted to true-breeding diploids, and somatic hybridization could open up whole new wings of the zinnia hobby. As a kid who didn't know better, I tried unsuccessfully to cross zinnias with marigolds. Somatic hybridization (cybridization) could make that a possibility now.

    More later.

    ZM

  • caricapapaya
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, I live in southern ca, and frost is rare. We do get cold (at least I think its cold) for the winter time. Cold weather veggies can be grown pretty much year round, but I dont think zinias would like it during the winter.

    But it doesnt start getting cold until october or so, and warms up pretty early too I guess. We can also have days in the 70s at any time during the year.

    What are the temps that zinnias willl grow in?

    I am in charge of my kids school garden, and I am thinking of planting a bunch there this year, and coordinating with the science teacher to use them in her lessons. especially about plants, genetics, etc.

    Thank you everyone for the informative and inspiring posts and pictures.

    As for tc, I think it has real potential here. I will do some searching and see what I can find.

    Just as a shot in the dark, I would try using MS with vitamins and no hormones and see what you get. And as the starting material, use axillary buds. I will draw a picture and try to post it so you can see what I mean.

    Happy breeding.

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    caricapapaya,

    "What are the temps that zinnias willl grow in?"

    They germinate best in the range of 75 to 85 degrees for soil temperature. If you start seeds inside, you should set them outside after any danger of frost, but the soil temperature could be a little cooler than the ideal germinating temperature. Zinnias thrive in warm sunny weather, and do less well in cool shady weather. You can google to find zinnia cultural information, in articles such as this How to Grow Zinnias. Zinnias are easy in warm sunny weather. I seem to recall that Burpee did a lot of their zinnia seed production in southern California, so you should find it relatively easy to grow zinnias in your area.

    ZM

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Caricapapaya,

    Well, that link for How to Grow Zinnias erroneously just linked back to this message thread. Let's try again. Here is a FloriData Zinnia elegans link. And Zinnias--If You Plant Them, Butterflies Will Come. And here is a second attempt at the How to Grow Zinnias link. I usually test links before I post them, but that link in my previous message was apparently the exception that proves the rule.

    This last year I made quite a bit of progress in getting a strain of what I call "aster flowered" zinnias, like this specimen that appeared in my second generation of 2010 zinnias.

    {{gwi:21876}}
    It has the long, flat petals of the aster flowered flowerform, and it also has the large stigmas of the "dinosaur" zinnia that appeared in the Fall of 2009. This Spring I'll be growing out a lot of seeds that I saved from various aster flowered specimens last year, which should give me the opportunity to select out some further improved versions. I'll need to do a lot more cross pollination to get a complete color range in the aster flowered zinnia strain. It'll be fun to see how that goes. I am always filled with anticipation when a new zinnia plant starts to open its first flower bud.

    ZM

  • ninecrow
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ***BUMP***

    Any Updates Guy's or is it Too Soon?

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    NC,

    Actually, I am continuing to plant zinnias in-ground. A few of my in-ground planted zinnias are starting to bud out now, and I will probably have a few blooms on them in a week to 10 days. In an effort to match JG's fabulous "extreme roll" zinnias (see the picture I posted on
    Tue, Sep 7, 10 at 0:25), I have planted a whole patch of bicolor and tricolor zinnias, including a lot of old seeds of the now-discontinued Zig Zag zinnia.

    {{gwi:21877}}
    The zinnias that I have in bud now are Whirligigs from a seed grower in Tanzania that were repackaged by Stokes in Canada. I planted them close together because their seeds were three years old, but despite their age they must have germinated about 80%. I will be culling them at first bloom to make more room for "the keepers".

    I have a few zinnias in bloom that I started early under fluorescent lights. This bloom has scabious influence.

    {{gwi:21878}}
    Its dark center makes it stand out. I am going to start paying more attention to the centers of zinnia blooms as features worth taking into account. I am still very enthusiastic about the potential for recombining scabiosa flowered zinnias with other zinnias. I believe this is another example of scabious influence.

    {{gwi:21879}}
    Things are starting to "heat up" in my zinnia patch, literally and figuratively. We have been having some weather in the 90s (Fahrenheit).

    None of my zinnia tissue cultures produced shoots so far, but I plan to renew my TC experiments. I will continue successive in-ground plantings well into July.

    ZM
    (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

  • AileenEdword
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A couple of years ago I planted seeds the orange and yellow flowers I grew looked pretty much like the pictures.I have always been interested in breeding, and these posts have been full of inspiring pictures and information...
    thanks!

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Aileen,

    Your MightyGarden website is quite impressive. It must have taken a lot of time and effort on your part to bring that much information together and to format it for the Web. You would be most welcome here as a zinnia hobbyist, whether you breed them or just grow them.

    Once you grow zinnias, you are sure to see a few specimens that you prefer over the others, and if you choose to save seeds from your favorites to plant next year, you have in effect become your own personal zinnia breeder.

    Cross pollination is simple to do with zinnias, and you can always cross your favorites with each other to easily go on to the next level. And then comes the excitement of seeing your first hybrids bloom. Maybe you will cross some of them, and then your zinnias will show you the wonders of genetic recombination. You will be raising and enjoying new zinnias that are not available in any seed packet. I took this picture of one of my recombinants yesterday.

    {{gwi:21880}}
    It combines two-color coloration from a Whirlygig ancestor, aster-style petals from a selected variation, and some center "interest" from a scabiosa flowered ancestor. I like it, and I will use it for further zinnia breeding. Its "open" flowerform does not cover up the two-color petal interest. Sometimes you will get bi-color specimens that have more conventional zinnia flowerforms, like this one, whose picture I also took yesterday.

    {{gwi:19000}}
    It is pretty, but the petals tend to hide the two-color interest. I will try crossing this one with some aster-flowered zinnias to get those colors in a more open form.

    ZM

  • izharhaq
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    very nice... I tried the Carrousel mixed for the first time and loved the bi-colored or even tri-colored blooms...

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi ZM! And all who read these posts!

    It's zinnia time again (well, I guess, except for ZM and his year-round plantings!)..

    ZM, your scabious and whirligig descendents look very nice!
    The only zinnias that are blooming for me thus far are peruvianas and tenuifolias, and, the haageanas are just starting (I am finding the latter reseed easily from the previous season). I have some scabious flowers (Candy Mix from T&M and Park)that are just starting to open, but as of yet, they don't look too promising!

    I have 52 direct descendents growing now of the "Extreme Roll" phenotype plants as well as maybe over 100 of sibs and other relatives of that line. Will see what happens..they may bloom in maybe two weeks, with luck. Hoping for some inheritance of those traits! Other seeds started include those of Sunbow, Whirligigs from Stokes and Rich, Park Pastel Cutting Blend, Burpeeanas, Benaries, angustifolias, Profusions and Zaharas. Also, lots of Cactus from HPS Seeds. Can't wait! But there is a massive amount of weeding to do! Grass and this weed called Peruvian Daisy are everywhere! I've got several rows of mixed seed from the 2010 zinnia garden, along with seeds selected from crinkled flowers, near blue flowers, flowers with strap-like petals, giant flowers, cactus with curly petals, July Bonnet F2 (I think the strange bonnet flowers are genetically unstable, but I got some pretty offspring that may have inheritable traits), and scabious zinnias (for me, this usually looks to be a pretty shabby row!). I tried planting seeds of flowers with very toothy petals, but the germination rate was way down! I'll be lucky to get 1 or 2 plants from those.

    ZM, how are your "Shaggy Dog" zinnias coming along? Those were fantastic, to say the least! What all have you planted outside?

    Looking forward to everyone's posts this summer!

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    It's great to hear from you again. I have had possibly a dozen progeny from "Pink Shaggy Dog" (code-named as D10) bloom so far, but none has equalled the parent. I still have a lot of unplanted "skinny" seeds from D10 on hand, and I may try germinating some of them in tissue culture medium, and some in wet paper towels, Deno style.

    "What all have you planted outside? "

    As I mentioned above, I planted a whole separate garden of Zig Zags (from Veseys) and Whirligigs (from Stokes and Hazzards). Some of the first ones planted are in the advanced bud stage now. I will be very selective with them, keeping only my favorites. I am still in the process of planting outside, using up seeds as old as from the 2006 season. I think this will be my biggest zinnia year ever.

    "Toothiness" is starting to show up better this year. This specimen is just one of my current "toothies". Notice its sharply pointed leaves.

    {{gwi:21881}}
    We had a strong storm last night, with winds well in excess of 50mph and hail up to the size of a quarter. But damage to my tomatoes and zinnias was minimal. We needed the rain. I do need to deploy some more zinnia cages for my breeders. More later. I can't wait to see some pictures of your new zinnias this year. And 99 percent of my zinnias haven't bloomed yet. So the anticipation builds.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    That toothy flower is pretty--nice and full, too. I bet it has lots of scabious genes. I noticed that the Park 2009 seeds gave rise to a few somewhat similar flowers for me; I don't think that the leaves were overly pointed, though.

    Not this year, thus far, are my scabious zinnias doing so well! They are starting to bloom and both lots that I have for 2011 are looking very daisy-like. Will post any pretty ones if I get them! I also planted a number of seeds coming from the nicer 2009 scabious flowers that I had, but they are not so mature now.

    We have also had a few days of heavy rain. Right now it is wet out with very dark skies for the morning. It is a perfect time for transplanting and weeding, if one uses a mosquito net and lots of insecticide!

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "I bet it has lots of scabious genes."

    Yes, I think it has a lot of scabious genes. I have had a few Candy Mix that looked very much like it straight out of the seed packet. Incidentally, I bought a lot of Candy Mix seeds from GeoSeed and I plan to make a big planting of them this year. I am making some progress toward bigger central florets, but I want to expand my scabious gene pool. As you have seen, very few of the scabious are good right out of the seed packet. To compensate for that, I am going to use a "brute force" approach, with a lot of planted seeds and lots of culling.

    {{gwi:21882}}
    I have a long ways to go to get the ultra-big florets that I want, but I will keep selecting in that direction. It's cool and windy this morning. We had no rain last night, so I will be preparing a new seedbed today.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    The above flower is pretty--and I can see that there will still be more larger than usual florets on it! I hope I will get at least one true scabious flower this summer, but I don't know--it doesn't look hopeful!

    We continue to get rain and hot temperatures, and some of the zinnia seeds that I have been putting in to fill empty spaces in the garden have germinated in two days under these conditions.

    The Peruvian zinnias continue to bloom heavily. Interestingly, about 98% are red, and the others yellow, although last year I had about a 50-50 distribution of yellow and red. I suspect that red must be the dominant color here and that there must have been a lot of cross-breeding going on. I guess I will be able to see if that happened when observing the offspring of the 2011 plants in 2012.

    My whirligigs are just starting to open now and I am seeing buds in many of the other large zinnias.

    With all the butterflies my zinnias attracted last year, I decided to add plants to the garden that would support the caterpillar stage. So, now I have plants like dill, fennel, rue, spicebush, pawpaw, pipevine, and snapdragons. Nearby also are hackberry trees, several kinds of milkweed, violets, and plantain, etc. It will be interesting to see what happens!

    Looking forward to seeing more of your zinnias..

    JG


  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "My whirligigs are just starting to open now and I am seeing buds in many of the other large zinnias. "

    My Whirligigs are beginning to open now, too. This is one whose picture I took this evening.

    {{gwi:21883}}
    It's certainly not an "Extreme Roll", but it has fairly narrow petals and the petals are spaced apart so that you can "see through" the flower. It is on the verge of being "spider flowered".

    "...hope I will get at least one true scabious flower this summer..."

    I hope so too. I spent some time today planting Candy Mix seeds between the rows in my Whirligig-Zig Zag garden because garden space is at a premium for me. There is room in there for some more, so I will be planting more Candy Mix again tomorrow. I want to get this planting phase over as soon I can.

    I think it is great that you are planting food plants for the butterfly larva. Nothing like that here, except for a few wild Milkweeds.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    I think zinnias like the one you have just shown will definitely enrich your gene pool for traits like airiness with the narrow petals. The Whirligig flowers that are coming out for me here have the slender petals as well as variable degrees of toothiness. Some are also solid-colored, but the flowers are so bright that they are still attractive.

    I finally found a scabious flower from the plants growing out from the Candy Mix seeds I bought this year. It is the first I have seen:

    {{gwi:21884}}

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "I finally found a scabious flower from the plants growing out from the Candy Mix seeds..."

    That looks like a nice one. Soft pastel colors. It has potential as a breeder. I planted a bunch of Candy Mix today. I guess they won't be blooming until August. I hope I get some good ones. My Whirligigs are continuing to bloom out and I have several good ones, but no Extreme Rolls yet. More later.

    ZM

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Incidentally, in studying my Whirligigs (the Zig Zags were planted a bit later and haven't bloomed yet) I notice that there are various flower forms within the Whirligig clan, and that it would be possible to select out separate strains with these flower forms. I pretty much discount and discard the single Whirligigs, even though they can look very pretty. But I particularly notice the narrow petaled slightly up-rolled specimens, because when they are in the pre-opening stage they look like they could be "extreme roll". But even though they are not extreme, they are a nice "open" flower form, like this one that I photographed yesterday evening.

    {{gwi:21885}}
    That really is a separate flower form from the classic double Whirligig, such as this one.

    {{gwi:21886}}
    I also notice that there is another form whose petals are re-curled somewhat, such as this one.

    {{gwi:21887}}
    I think it would be possible to select out several sub-strains from the Whirligigs based on flower form. I think I will try inter-crossing Whirligigs within separate flower types to see if I can make any progress in that direction. My goal would be to get a good color range within each flower type. More later. (Still hoping an Extreme Roll will appear in my zinnia patch--it could happen...)

    ZM

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Some of my first planted Zig Zags are beginning to bloom now. This is one of them, and it may be "teasing" me that it could be an example of an "Extreme Roll".

    {{gwi:21888}}
    It's actually too early to tell, because this flower is just beginning to bloom. But I will be keeping a close eye on it to see how it performs.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    Like you, I think the Whirligigs are really interesting because there is so much diversity among them. So many different characteristics and color combinations! I wonder how all of that has happened? I remember how we were saying earlier that they originated from a cross between haageana and elegans zinnias.

    Anyway, some of the various forms I saw this morning include:

    One that shows the toothy trait:

    {{gwi:21889}}

    One that has narrow petals as well as some toothiness:

    {{gwi:21890}}

    One that is starting to open looks like an "Extreme Roll":

    {{gwi:21891}}.

    And one that has small stripes in it (a virus maybe, or something that is inherited?):

    {{gwi:21892}}

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    You have some nice Whirligigs. That last one with the stripes is an example of some of the "mutants" that are rather common in Whirligigs. It's not at all bad for a mutant. This is a picture of one of my recent Whirligig mutants.

    {{gwi:21893}}
    There is a lady bug nearly hidden in that picture. Some of the Whirligig mutants are seriously "messed up".

    Incidentally, that potential "extreme roll" that I pictured in my last message was just teasing me. It petals unfurled in a couple of days into a fairly conventional looking red zinnia. Since it is a solid color, I will probably cull it.

    But I am staying on the lookout for an Extreme Roll in my zinnia patch. I still have a lot of Zig Zags that haven't bloomed yet, because I did successive plantings of them. I didn't exactly plan it that way, but I have been planting zinnias "as fast as I can", which sometimes isn't very fast. Today I tilled up another small seedbed that I will use to plant some more zinnias.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    I like the color combination in your last whirligig--kind of a new play on Pepperstick-type zinnias. A big cactus flower with those colors could be pretty nice!

    Only a small part of my zinnia garden is blooming now and consists of some peruvianas, haageanas, tenuifolias, whirligigs, and scabious zinnias. I have more of the whirligigs and scabious zinnias planted, but they have yet to bloom.

    I found a few more scabious types in the Candy Mix:

    {{gwi:21894}}{{gwi:21895}}{{gwi:21896}}

    Here is another example of a whirligig, with paler colors on the tips of the petals:

    {{gwi:21897}}

    You can see bugs on two of those flowers!

    A lot of flowers look like "Extreme Roll" when they first start to open. The "Extreme Rolls" may have a gene or genes mutated that are responsible for the opening up of the petals. I know there must be whirligig genes in those flowers when looking at the colors, but the first flowers I had with that trait came from at least 3 generations of my randomly breeding garden zinnias. I hope to see them again this year, but you never know! I think there is some inheritance there, but don't know just how it works. From last year's offspring, I'm sure it's not a (Mendelian) dominant trait!

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "A lot of flowers look like "Extreme Roll" when they first start to open."

    That is true. I have been "teased" by several opening flowers. So far, no extreme roll. But I do have a few of these zinnias with up-rolled petals, and I plan to intercross them to establish them as a strain.

    {{gwi:1723}}
    So far only about a third of my Whirligig/Zig Zags have bloomed, so I halfway expect to get a few more uprolls to intercross with.

    "...but the first flowers I had with that trait came from at least 3 generations of my randomly breeding garden zinnias... I think there is some inheritance there, but don't know just how it works. From last year's offspring, I'm sure it's not a (Mendelian) dominant trait! "

    It could be a combination of two or more recessive genes. I am going to try inter-crossing my uprolled specimens and then grow recombinants from those crosses in an attempt to find the Extreme Roll combination. I guess obtaining Extreme Rolls is not going to be as easy as just "finding them" in a large growout of Whirligigs and/or Zig Zags.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    The fun thing about these flowers is that every season it seems we find some really interesting flowers with traits we may never had been able to predict. You have been able to get some very elegant-looking flowers, too, through your breeding program. I don't have such a breeding program--except that I try to maintain lines that I find by chance each year...I'm not sure which is more difficult!

    Below is the small row of whirligigs that have started to bloom:

    {{gwi:21898}}

    Here is the first of the Burpeeanas to bloom:

    {{gwi:21899}}

    Before the majority of my plants start to bloom, I should be observing the leaves and buds to see if there is anything unusual.

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "The fun thing about these flowers is that every season it seems we find some really interesting flowers with traits we may never had been able to predict."

    You are right about that. Zinnias occur in great variety, and the more we look at them, the more little things we notice. I have noticed that zinnias differ significantly in the size and color of their center area--that area from which new petals emerge. The center area on this Whirligig is fairly wide.

    {{gwi:8911}}
    The center cone can be tall or short. You tend to notice the center cone when you are shucking seeds. Stem diameter can vary a lot. Leaf shape and size can vary. Plant height can range from 3 inches to several feet. There are many petal shapes. The stigmas can range from rather small to quite large. The pollen bearing florets usually have five arms, but sometimes there are six or more arms on a floret. And scabious florets are very different.

    "Before the majority of my plants start to bloom, I should be observing the leaves and buds to see if there is anything unusual."

    I prefer longer, pointier leaves, but I always want to see that first bloom before I cull a zinnia plant.

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    I think the long, pointy leaves, are better, too, but I have very few plants with those! In fact, the Extreme Roll progeny have extremely "fat" leaves...flower buds are getting ready to open.

    With respect to leaves, I found a "Threesie" among some of my plants today. Also, I have noticed that pigmentation of the leaves at the nodes is often a purple tint, especially when the flowers are to be red or purple.

    I plant my zinnias so thickly that many rise to heighths of five feet or more!

    Here is the first of my Candy Mix (2009) F1, resulting from a random cross in the garden:

    {{gwi:21900}}

    The central florets, instead of being conical, are short petal-like structures.

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    That Candy Mix hybrid is amazing! I think that is actually a new flower form in zinnias. I have seen a lot of zinnia flowerform variants, but none like that. Those central petaloids seem to show stigmas. I think you could apply pollen to them and get hybrid seeds from them, in addition to what you could get from the stigmas on the guard petals.

    I planted my Candy Mix about two weeks ago, so they are small seedlings now. I planted quite a few of them. I am looking forward to the time when they bloom. Based on your specimen, it may be that Candy Mix can produce results that we haven't seen from crosses with the older scabiosa flowered strains. Your new flower reminds me vaguely of an orchid, partly because of the picotee effect on the tips of the petaloids. Bravo!

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    Today is a mulching day. I finally have the areas around my zinnia rows fairly weed-free, so I am going to use some old bales of alfalfa hay as mulch--hope if there are seeds in it, they won't be too much of a problem in the future. I always have so many weeds, though, I don't think more things could come up--it would just be a matter of competition.

    The first of my Extreme Roll progeny is starting to open. Will it be or won't it be? Hard to tell....

    {{gwi:21901}}

    JG

  • pansyloverandgrower
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi zenman, i have been reading your threads for the past 6 months and they are rwally interesting! especially the tissue culture! So from what i undestand, is that you can take cuttings from zinnias and produce a plant from them? i did not know you could do that. I also need your help here...

    I have some zinnias, about 1.5 months old, 11 of them. they are very small and have not bloomed yet:

    -They are a mix of california giants and zinnia envy
    -Are in full sun
    -soil is constantly kept slightly moist
    -They are 5-6 inches tall, with the package saying full size 18-24 inches
    -they have not been fertilized until today
    -They are very slightly slightly rootbound, but i planted them in their permanant containers today
    -They are 1 1/2 months old, started in early-mid may
    -They are short, but very very bushy and healthy, a perfect even green
    -They do not have buds yet

    Please help me if you can since you seem to be the expert. what can i do this year or in the future to help the grow better? I would have started them in feb., but the originals flopped over and died in april, so i had to start over in early may.

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    We had a rain last night which really brought out a lot of flowers here (also the mosquitoes!). The bud I showed on June 30 now looks like this:

    {{gwi:21902}}I am excited because it seems three other plants in the same F-2 group are showing similar blooms. Interesting, too, is that the F-1 group of flowers coming from the 2009 Candy Mix plants' seeds are showing a high percentage of scabious blooms (more so than the 2011 seeds I planted this year).

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    I am so excited that the Extreme Roll phenotype seems to be coming true from seed. I am getting a few up-rolled specimens in my Whirligigs and Zig Zags, but no extreme rolls. That may be because they don't have the "X-factor" that your Extreme Rolls have acquired.

    I hope that your Extreme Rolls can become a strain, not just because they have a charming appearance, but because they could make interesting crosses and recombinations with other zinnia types.

    "Interesting, too, is that the F-1 group of flowers coming from the 2009 Candy Mix plants' seeds are showing a high percentage of scabious blooms (more so than the 2011 seeds I planted this year)."

    My 2009 Candy Mix seeds from Parks Seeds performed better too. I wonder if they were from a different grower. The Candy Mix that I planted this year are all from GeoSeed, and I have no idea whether they acquired their Candy Mix seed from a "good" grower or not. Time will tell. My Candy Mix are still rather young seedlings. At least I have quite a few of them.

    You definitely do get different results from different growers for the same named strain. This year I grew Whirligigs from both Stokes and Hazzards, and those two populations were distinctly different. And the Zig Zags are coming in different from either of the Whirligig groups.

    Since 90% of my Zig Zags haven't bloomed yet, it is too early to generalize about them, except that I believe I am beginning to see why the Zig Zag strain has been discontinued. A high percentage of the Zig Zags are "off-type", in that they differ from the description of the strain. I think they are going to have a very high cull rate, but they are producing some interesting specimens that make me happy to grow them. The picture I posted on June 27th is of a Zig Zag, but only a very few of them are like that. However I will treat the few good ones as breeders and discard most of the rest.

    This is one of the mutants that seem to be fairly common in my Stokes Whirligigs.

    {{gwi:21903}}
    I took that picture yesterday. Our Kansas wind makes it difficult to get a good close-up of a flower that isn't blurred. The flowers are jumping around like basketball players. More later. Hope to see more pictures of your Extreme Rolls, and anything else in your zinnia patch.

    ZM

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    pansyloverandgrower,

    "So from what I understand, is that you can take cuttings from zinnias and produce a plant from them? I did not know you could do that."

    That's not surprising. Most books on plant propagation don't list zinnias as something that you can grow from cuttings. You do need to use some Physan 20 to keep the cuttings from rotting, and of course some rooting hormone and humidity domes to keep the cuttings from wilting until they have time to strike some roots (about 10 days). So I guess you could say that it is not easy to grow zinnias from cuttings, but it can be done. I do it primarily to "rescue" good breeder zinnias from an impending killing frost. And, in the case of my "Dinosaur Zinnia", I used cuttings to provide a greater seed yield than was possible from a single plant. Zinnia cuttings propagation details and pictures were provided in earlier parts of this message series.

    "...especially the tissue culture!"

    Ah, yes. The tissue culture. Apparently that is considerably more difficult than growing zinnias from cuttings. I have actually successfully taken cuttings from zinnia plants that were themselves grown from cuttings. But so far my attempts at micropropagation of zinnias from tissue culture have failed. Right now I am concentrating on preparing and planting more outdoor seedbeds for my zinnias, so my tissue culture experiments are "on hold" right now. But I consider it an imperative that I learn to grow zinnias from tissue cultures.

    My initial attempts used a technique that works for African Violet leaf disc explants, but apparently zinnia tissue needs stronger plant growth hormones than African Violet leaves need. That is not too surprising, because some growers propagate African Violets from leaves without using tissue culture. I plan to use stronger doses of BAP (benzylaminopurine) and also try TDZ (thidiazuron) to stimulate shoot production from zinnia callus tissue. I will report on my progress when it occurs. Tissue culture could be very helpful in creating new strains of zinnias.

    "I also need your help here...I have some zinnias, about 1.5 months old, 11 of them. they are very small and have not bloomed yet: ..."

    See my response to your separate message thread. I think you may be trying to grow zinnias under conditions that are more challenging than what most of us face. Actually, zinnias are considered easy to grow in most climates. But you may need some special techniques if you are living in Washington state, because zinnias need full sun. Please give us some more information about your zinnia growing situation. Your description of your plants sounds very "un-zinnia-like". If possible, could you post a picture of them?

    ZM

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    I think I'm getting similar results with the Whirligig seeds from Stokes, seeing some of the mutations like in the flower you showed on June 27. But I like the diversity in the plants that grow up from them, and also, for the large numbers of seeds you can get, the price is right.

    I think that the Extreme Roll appearance may very well be due to a recessive gene, as I see some of the same phenotype coming up from the X-Roll F-2 seeds that I grew up and coming from plants that didn't have the extreme look. In the cases where those plants were selfed there is a chance that a fraction of their progeny would show the extreme flowers, if the gene is recessive.

    Here, though, is another of the F-2 coming up from a plant whose parent had the Extreme Roll phenotype. Maybe the disc flowers aren't desirable, but I'm glad they are there for crossing purposes!

    {{gwi:21904}}

    JG

  • jackier_gardener
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM,

    Actually, I meant seeing mutations like in the flower you showed today...

    JG

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Your Extreme Roll offspring are continuing to show encouraging signs of genetic persistence. It looks like a strain is very possible. I plan to continue selections in that direction from my Whirligigs and Zig Zags, but I may be dickering to trade some zinnia seeds with you next season. However, I am sort of requiring myself to become successful with zinnia tissue culture before growing any Extreme Rolls or any other unique zinnias. I would be kind of horrified if a blue zinnia appeared in my zinnia patch and I was incapable of tissue culturing it.

    Hi everyone,

    This message thread is at the 100 mark, and understandably somewhat slow to load, so I am continuing it over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 16 for a "fresh" start.

    I look forward to seeing you all over there.

    ZM