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maineman_gw

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias

maineman
16 years ago

I think that some of you out there might find that it is fun to breed your own zinnias. You could easily start now by tagging a few of your favorite zinnias, since they are probably in the process of going to seed this fall. When a seed head and it's stem attachment point becomes brown, it is ready to "harvest". Bring it inside to dry and after it is dry, you can take it apart to recover your seeds for next year.

You can accomplish a lot by simply saving seeds from your best zinnias. Each year your zinnias will get better and it may not be long until they are better than anything you can buy.

You don't have to cross pollinate to be successful with home zinnia breeding, but hybridizing can add a new dimension to the hobby and, as I told oxmyx in the Anomalous Zinnia message thread, it isn't hard to do. It's really interesting to see your very own hybrid crosses opening up for the first time.

Of course, I always enjoy the anticipation of any new zinnia opening, but it really adds to the experience when it might be a new zinnia color, or even a whole new kind of zinnia.

When I was a kid on our Oklahoma farm, I tried unsuccessfully to cross zinnias and marigolds, but I also made a few successful crosses between zinnias, and I really liked that. Later in Fort Worth we had a garden where I did some zinnia breeding, but I was working full time and didn't have a lot of free time to devote to the hobby. During subsequent career moves we were renters and didn't have access to gardening space. But I am retired now, living here in Maine, and last year, it all "came together" when gardening space for zinnias became available, and I could renew my zinnia breeding hobby.

Last year I planted Burpee Burpeeanas, Burpee Hybrids, Whirligigs, and Park's Pastel Scabiosa Flowered zinnias. I made several dozen crosses last fall and saved enough seed to fill the garden this year. I started some of my hybrids early under lights late in April and early in May. Some of them were actually blooming when I set them into the garden in early June.

I immediately began crossing some of my hybrids with each other and by planting partly green seed I started a second generation as a fall crop, which I re-crossed and am saving seed from now. With a killing frost possible at almost any time here now, my zinnia patch is definitely in the "end game." But I already have enough seed to continue the hobby next year.

Crossing F1 hybrids with each other, or saving selfed seeds from F1 hybrids, produces some very unpredictable results. I have filled a compost pile with rejects, but there have been some interesting "keepers" as well. So, as they say on the TV reality shows, "expect the unexpected."

I'll be posting several pictures of interesting specimens that have appeared this year. Zinnias are fast growers and bloom relatively quickly, so you don't have to wait long to see your results. Other ornamentals, like daylilies, iris, roses, etc, require you to wait years, not a month or so, to see your new flowers.

This specimen is a hybrid between two hybrids. It owes its petal form to one Whirligig grandparent, its flower size to a Burpee Hybrid grandparent and to a Burpeeana grandparent, and its subtle two-toned color pattern is a combination of factors from all four grandparents. I designate good specimens as "breeders", give them special attention, use pollen from them, and save seeds from them.

MM

{{gwi:24075}}

Comments (119)

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Until mid-September, I get very little mildew. But as the weather starts to cool down, my plants, being close together without much ventilation, and there being a lot of condensation overnight, I start to see it. Other than looking bad, does mildew do any harm to the plants so late in the season? Also, when mildew does arrive, I would think this would be a good time to assess which of your plants may have resistance.

    The below link cites a nice chapter in a flower genetics book (2006)--a review on zinnia breeding. I would guess you have already read it, MM.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/g301n60k12l24816/

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    You're right, Jackier, I have read that chapter. I don't own the book (yet) but I read the chapter in Amazon's online sampling of the hardcover edition. I wasn't ready to spend $329 on it, although I can't say I am not tempted by it. There is a recently published paperback edition for $129 that I may decide to purchase. Even though I have read most of the zinnia chapter repeatedly online, I'll bet there is a lot more material in the book that would be of interest, and the online reading is rather tedious. Considering its level of scholarship, the whole book must be pretty good, and I probably will scrape the money together to buy the paperback, or suggest it as a Christmas present. Hopefully the paperback has the same content as the hardback. As far as I know, that book's zinnia chapter is the most comprehensive written source in the subject area of zinnia breeding. You were well informed to suggest it.

    I think mildew does do real damage to the zinnia plant other than make it look bad. It is a rapidly multiplying parasitic organism. Although there is some question whether the plant has mildew because its health and natural immunity have already declined, or whether the mildew causes the decline in health. My zinnia plants didn't show traces of mildew until after I had already given them up for imminent death by frost. In the days before frost got them, I took a few cuttings from the breeders to experiment with.

    I plan to plant my zinnias even closer together next year in order to grow a larger number in the space I have available, but I plan to at least partially solve the crowding problem by removing all but the choicest specimens at first bloom. The rejects will go on the compost pile, to make available more air and sun for my chosen breeders, and to make space for a successive planting. I sort of did that this year, but I wasn't as thorough in removing non-breeders as I should have been.

    There is another benefit to really thorough roguing. If I leave only choice specimens, the bees won't have access to any substandard pollen, so that any bee pollinations will be more likely to produce acceptable results. Let the bees work for me instead of against me. And next year I hope to do even more spraying than I did this year, to prevent not just mildew, but other foliage diseases as well. Rose fanciers spray their roses a lot and my zinnias are my "roses". I have even bought some products from Rosemania. I plan to experiment with Messenger for better zinnia health as well as ProTeKt for the benefits of soluble silicon nutrition.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    I decided that I will start building up some literature as a basis for the breeding I plan to do this coming summer
    (and, possibly some things I might do in the winter months..)..

    From the link I mentioned yesterday, I did invest $25 to download, save, and print that chapter. There are also some good references at the end of it. And, I am printing many of the things you and others have mentioned on this site. Of course, a day at the university science or agriculture library will also help immensely in gathering any other sorts of background....

    Maybe I will be able to do things in more intelligent manner when summer comes..

    But, last week, I mowed down my plants, and today is sunny and dry. So I am going to add some horse manure to the plot and till it...probably that is far as I will go for summer 2008 in terms of supplements for the plants, along with some stuff from my compost pile if it is ready!

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "I did invest $25 to download, save, and print that chapter."

    I think that was a good investment. There are other sources of relevant zinnia information, but I think that is the best single source on zinnia breeding that I have seen. And, as you said, there are a lot of good references at the end of that chapter. I think it is good that you are building up some literature on the subject.

    "Maybe I will be able to do things in more intelligent manner when summer comes..."

    I hope to do the same. For the time being, I am going to focus on getting better spider flowered specimens, better bicolors and tricolors, bigger flowers, stronger plants, and expand the flower forms that I can get by crossing and back-crossing the scabiosa flowered zinnias with large flowered zinnias. I am going to cross green zinnias with other colors looking for new flower colors. I intend to develop better cultural practices and stay on the lookout for any new mutations that might pop up. I like it that gardeners, as a group, are an optimistic bunch. And that next year's garden is always going to be better than this year's garden.

    I can't wait to see the new 2008 seed catalogs.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    I am also looking forward to the new seed catalogs! Although, this fall, I have bought more seeds already, far more than usual, and I've started to prepare more small plots about the yard, beyond "the patch." This year, I decided I wanted to get more yellow genes into the zinnia pool, so that I would have more yellow offspring in coming years (I had a lot of red flowers, and those dominant "dark" genes seemed to be overtaking the look of my patch!). So I have gotten seeds for that purpose: Park's Gold Sun Hybrid and Park's Pick Yellow, and Zowie.

    Then I also got the Whirligigs, Scabious Mix, Cactus Types (Park's Bright Jewels, Jung's Burpee's Hybrids, HPSSeeds Cactus Mix), Ruffled types (Burpeana Giants, Park's Ruffles Mix, Jung's Ruffles Hybrid)and various taller zinnias--Stoke's Royal Purple, Park's Cutting Blend, Park's Picks Mix, Burpee's Big Tetra Mix, Gurney's State Fair, Gurney's Mixed Dahlia, Park's Sunshine Mix, Gurney's California Giant Mix, Jung's Oklahoma Mix, and Park's Uproar Rose--thanks, franeli, very pretty!! . I got some of the shorter zinnias because I would like to try to cross them back with the larger ones--these will go into separate areas--Burpee Pinwheels, Select Seeds' Chippendale, Classic, Red Spider and White Star zinnias, Park's Cherry and Ivory Swizzle, Park's Aztec Sunset, and HPSSeeds Profusion Mix. Over the past seven years, I have been allowing a lot of cross-breeding to occur with no plan in mind..That will continue, but there will be planned crosses, too.

    I had some nice Whirligigs or Whirligig descendents that were like large daisies with a 1" white interior and a 1" outer yellow border. Unfortunately,I never got a photo, or separated out seeds, but I have had several plants like this several years running, and I would like to get this color scheme into larger flowers with more petals.

    I got some very bright smaller Whirligig-Zowie crosses (I think)whose colors I would like to carry over into larger flowers.

    Then, probably, like everyone else, I think it would be neat to get a blue, or close-to-blue zinnia..let's give it a try..:-).

    MM, I love your "marigold" type zinnias in pastel colors--I would like to try to get something similar!

    None of the above will be easy, maybe impossible, but the challenge is fun, and the surprises you get along the way are the sorts of things that a gardener looks forward to......

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    With 7 years of bee-crossing in your rich variety of zinnia varieties, you probably have a very rich, deep zinnia gene pool, with the potential for selecting out some great new strains or cultivars. The yellow-white bicolors sound like they would be well worth tagging and saving seed from separately.

    I thought I had a lot of zinnia seeds, but you have got me beat by a country mile. But that's a good thing. The more seed sources you use, the better chance you have for finding something new and unique. I have discovered that each field of seeds produces a different mix, even if the name of the variety is the same from one field to another.

    Your idea of getting more yellows to improve their representation in your gene pool is a good idea. Your yellow sources are good. I hope to select a few good yellows out of some of the mixtures that I grow a lot of for my spider flowered project. So a good yellow spider flowered zinnia will be something I am looking specifically for. I did have a good golden yellow this year that I used pollen from. My only canary yellow zinnia had an ordinary cactus flower form and the blooms weren't as large as I prefer, so I didn't use it as a breeder. But, as you have already noticed, yellow and white are zinnia colors that need special attention.

    "Then, probably, like everyone else, I think it would be neat to get a blue, or close-to-blue zinnia..let's give it a try..:-)."

    Once in Fort Worth I got a light powder blue that was stable in partial shade. Unfortunately a dog destroyed that plant before I could save any seeds from it. It had some green "Envy" blood in its heritage. This year I put heavy tomato cages made from concrete re-mesh wire around my more critical breeders as protection from just such mishaps, and there was some damage from some unknown animals (dogs, deer?) that ran through my zinnia patch at night. This is a picture of my "closest to blue" zinnia this year. The colors are un-retouched, and the picture is a bit underexposed because it was taken on a cloudy day. It was one of my echinacea flowered specimens. Since none of the many wild zinnia species has a blue, I think blue will be very difficult to achieve. But I always watch for it, just in case.

    MM

    {{gwi:24111}}

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Wow! You are getting close!! If you cover the ruffles in the middle, it almost looks like a chicory flower. I guess you harvested the seeds. It will be really interesting to see what you get in the next generation from that plant! Did you try and self-cross it? Or choose other parents?

    I read in the article by Stimart and Boyle that many zinnias can not be self-fertilized, with exceptions. That really surprised me, given all the seeds that I harvest every year from the better and more interesting of my plants--that is, it's hard to believe most of the seeds may come from crosses between different plants. Anyway, because of the exceptions, that won't stop me from at least trying to self some of my plants in the future.

    Anyway, that close-to-blue flower is nice!

    JG

  • glendalekid
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM and jackier,

    Park Seed has all their zinnia seeds on sale, 35% or more off.

    Karen

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Karen,

    Thanks for the heads up. I guess they must be clearing out their 2007 seed to make way for the 2008 seed. A lot of year-old seed is perfectly good, including zinnia seed, which remains good for years if stored under decent conditions. So maybe I will pick up some bargain 2007 seed.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Karen! I don't know if I should give in to further temptation...but, well, I AM tempted...

  • glendalekid
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, I just ordered several more packages -- I can never resist bargain seeds. Sheesh!

    Karen

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "I read in the article by Stimart and Boyle that many zinnias cannot be self-fertilized, with exceptions. That really surprised me..."

    Me too. I think they should have worded that more carefully. Some zinnias don't produce pollen at all and, for that reason, they must depend on pollen from other sources. Two of my marigold flowered specimens were like that, and pictures of their flowers appear above. Notice the complete absence of pollen. Eventually, after several dozen blooms had appeared with no pollen production at all (during which time I was busy pollinating them with various likely "upgrades"), some side branches appeared with flowers (dare I call them capitula? Nahh) that had some pollen production.

    There may be some freaky zinnias that won't respond to their own pollen, but I haven't encountered any, and I have relied on manual selfing to increase the seed yields of desirable specimens for quite some time.

    Incidentally, Stimart and Boyle contradict their own statements about self incompatibility. On page 342 they say

    "Most Zinnia species are obligate outbreeders. Self-incompatibility (SI) is prevalent in the genus and has been documented in at least 10 species: ...and Z. violacea (Boyle and Stimart, 1986...)"

    But, then on the very next page (343) they say,

    "Zinnias are easy to cross-pollinate. Disc florets need to be removed with a pair of broad-tipped forceps to prevent selfing unless the female parent is either fully double or a femina type (see section 6.1). Pollen is then applied to pistillate ray florets on the emasculated parent. Forceps are used to remove disc florets from the paternal parent and pollinate the stigmas of the pistillate ray florets."

    Think about it. If the zinnia really was self incompatible, you wouldn't have to be doing all that removal of the disc florets to prevent selfing.

    Gotta go check out the Park's zinnia seed sale.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi all,

    Well, I ordered 16 packets of Park's Scabious zinnia seed, among a few other zinnia packets. Saved some money, and that will be a hedge against Park's discontinuing that variety for 2008. I want to get some "new blood" into my Scabiosa flowered zinnias and I usually have to raise twenty or thirty plants from the seed packets in order to find one or two breeder quality specimens.

    MM

  • glendalekid
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    And the savings helps defray the shipping costs, too. I got more of the scabiosa ones and another packet of Envy, plus several I didn't already have.

    I'm making additional beds for next Spring. Have you ever used pine needles for mulch? I found a free source for these. Do you think that by Spring they will have broken down enough that I won't have to worry about the acid-factor in the new beds if I use them for mulch over the winter to condition the soil?

    Karen

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Karen,

    I still use pine needles for mulch around strawberries, but only for that. A few years ago I had a mulch of pine needles and wood chips under some eggplants and peppers and the earwigs used that as a base of operations to become a real pest. The acidity factor didn't seem to be a problem. But I have discontinued the practice of mulching, because we get quite a bit of rainfall and heat isn't a problem either. I do till in organic matter on a yearly basis as it becomes available.

    If you have a free source of pine needles, go for it. At the very minimum you could use the pine needles in your garden paths until they break down enough for incorporation in your soil. Our pine needles come from our own pine trees, of which we have several. But that's not an excessive supply of pine needles for us. I do like pine needles.

    MM

  • glendalekid
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Thanks. I need to mulch more next year than I did this year. We are in the fourth year of a drought and had a full month of 100+ temps. The absolutely only plant that was happy with this were the zinnias.

    For the rest of it, though, I need to mulch even if it means I may be inviting in the bad bugs. I will get the pine needles since they are free. Free is good.

    Karen

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    I plan to do a lot with greens next year. In fact, I plan to go "whole hog" on green zinnias, planting Envy, Burpee's Tequila Lime, and Benary's Giant Lime. The greens aren't completely dominate in crosses, but they can modify the color and texture of the color, so they shouldn't just "disappear" in crossing with other colors, particularly so in F2s where recessive factors have the opportunity to reemerge in different ways.

    Just to make sure your greens participate, try doing some hand pollinating using their pollen and also hand pollinate some other colors onto the stigmas of selected green females. To facilitate your hand pollination, get some good tweezers or forceps, to make it easy to use the pollen florets as brushes to apply pollen to the stigmas that you target.

    I used to use Twissors (tweezers with scissor handles as opposed to the small scissors with tweezer handles that sometimes go by the same name), but now I use a 5" pair of curved tip mosquito forceps. You can get scissor-handled tweezers by other names in many drug stores in the cosmetics area. Unlike tweezers, forceps can "lock", preventing you from inadvertently dropping the pollen floret. Forceps are also longer and more maneuverable than tweezers, and they can feel better on your fingers. Even the inexpensive ones are usually made of smoothly polished stainless steel.

    There is a very large selection of forceps available (Amazon is a good place to shop for them online), and some that are intended for surgeons are very expensive (over $100), but there are some good "floor grade" forceps in the $10 to $30 range. I think this is where I purchased the 5" curved tip forceps that I currently use. Maybe I will purchase a better pair for next year, but they don't have to be fancy, just feel good in my hand and manipulate the pollen florets well. I tried a pair with straight tips and I didn't like them as well. They partially blocked my view of the pollen floret. Maybe I should try some with even more extremely curved tips. Shopping for forceps on Amazon can provide many pages of possibilities.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "You are getting close!! If you cover the ruffles in the middle, it almost looks like a chicory flower. I guess you harvested the seeds. It will be really interesting to see what you get in the next generation from that plant!"

    In the excitement of the zinnia seed sale, I forgot to respond to part of your message. I did indeed save quite a few seeds from that lavender-blue echinacea flowered F1. Like all of the echinacea flowered series, it had a scabiosa flowered female parent and a "selected" large flowered Burpee Hybrid or Burpeeana Giant male parent. I planted a few of the seeds for my second generation Fall crop and the F2s varied all over the place.

    When the parents of an F1 cross are widely different, as was the case with all of my scabiosa flowered crosses except for my scabi-X-scabi scabiosa hybrids, the F2 children vary wildly and display combinations of factors that neither the selfed parent nor the grandparents had. It's an interesting complex phenomenon explainable by Probability Theory applied to genetics. Suffice it to say, it happens.

    The F2s are interesting new specimens, but they rarely have the "right" combination of genes, so they are for the most part disappointing and candidates for the compost pile. The F2 posted on Sun, Sep 30, 07 at 23:18 was actually one of the children of the blue-lavender echinacea flowered F1, and the remaining half dozen or so specimens were various odd little pastel flowered daisy-like specimens. All of them went to the compost pile.

    Hopefully next year I will be able to plant a whole bed of F2s from that blue-lavender F1 specimen, and maybe I will get something useful out of a much larger sample. However, I think the chances of getting a pure sky blue are pretty near zero, even if I planted a million of them.

    "Did you try and self-cross it? Or choose other parents?"

    I did both. I crossed its guard petals with other echinacea flowered specimens and selected "upgrades" and allowed most of its disk florets to self-fertilize naturally.

    The disk florets of scabiosa-derived specimens are interesting intermediates between regular zinnia petals and the furry-yellow pollen florets of conventional zinnias. They are at least partially hermaphroditic, and some of them produce pollen and their style acts as a modified stigma which receives it, producing a selfed seed just as the regular yellow pollen florets of standard zinnias frequently produce a selfed seed.

    Others of them have vestigial infertile pollen and extend a rather identifiable stigma which can be pollinated like the stigma of a conventional ray floret petal. There are intermediate forms that can apparently function either way, and I frequently use my mosquito forceps to tear the floret enough to expose a style-stigma for cross pollination. I have performed that procedure on some pure-bred scabiosa flowered specimens as well, to cross pollinate more than just the guard petals.

    I am still learning about these intermediate floret-petals. The marigold flowered variants have many more open-shaped toothy disk florets with readily accessible near-conventional stigmas, but the florets toward the center of the flower transition toward a more tubular form. I think you can see that in both the Sun, Sep 30, 07 at 22:28 picture and the Sun, Sep 30, 07 at 22:39 picture.

    This zinnia breeding hobby continues to be a learning experience for me.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Thanks so much for sharing all of your experience in breeding your zinnias. I have never tried crossing composite flowers, but it looks like it will take a great deal of care and patience. I've used a paintbrush on flowers where the parts were larger, but it looks like using forceps with the disc flowers for fertilization is really a good choice for zinnias. And you have to catch that pollen quickly while it is still viable.

    Now that I'll have the Envy seeds, I'm anxious to see what comes from crossing them with other kinds of zinnia.

    With respect to your near-blue zinnia, it apparently had just the right combination of alleles to get that color.
    I would be tempted to hang onto the F2 generation where it was selfed, even though they are not the greatest, because even if you had segregation and recombination of alleles, the alleles are still there (most likely) among those offspring, and maybe some persistance and selfing through the F3 and F4 might be worth it. You might get some ugly flowers, but they might be blue :-)....Then you can work from there (?)..to get some true-breeding plants. Then again, those blues might be strictly hybrid and 100% similar offspring might be impossible. I guess I should stop there..but it's an interesting problem.


    From the article mentioned earlier, I was interested to read about the "femina" flowers. Every year, I get several plants with those flowers, and I've always considered the flowers with no petals as mutants. I didn't realize they were triple recessive females commonly used for breeding. I've got a lot to learn, too..

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "And you have to catch that pollen quickly while it is still viable."

    The use of "hair nets" to keep the bees away from the pollen florets takes most of the pressure off of that. The pollen that became available in the morning remains usable into the afternoon. Without the hair nets, the bees get the pollen in mid-morning unless you beat them to it, and that can require you to get into the garden fairly early and work fast as soon as the pollen florets start to open.

    The nets have made cross pollination a much more leisurely and effective activity for me. I make my protective nets out of an open nylon mesh fabric and I use some yarn and a knitting needle (and a threader) to join it. The mesh and yarn are both black to make them less conspicuous in the garden.

    I tried more elaborate pyramidal designs, but my present design is a simple sack or envelope open on one side, and approximately 8 or 9 inches square, with some smaller 6 inch nets for smaller blooms like the scabiosa flowered zinnias. I can make several of the simple-design nets in an hour.

    Don't pull the net all the way down on the flower, but leave a little room at the top to keep the bees from "cheating" through the net. I have seen some butterflies drinking nectar through the holes in the net, but I don't mind because they don't grab the pollen like the bees do.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM

    I am definitely starting to get ready for my summer flower garden! The "hair nets" will be something to work on for now--black for the color is a good suggestion. I will probably start some seeds under lights in March-April, but, really, not too many, because with the number of seeds I have and to try and have the plants blooming all roughly the same time, I will sow the vast majority in May. I guess the major task will be in the planning of where besides my 40' x 50' patch the seeds will go. Besides the seeds I bought, I have my ongoing collection, which fills a one gallon container! I don't have the heart to put selected plants on the compost pile during the summer, but I know it is probably a good idea..

    Also, gathering more literature is another goal..This looks interesting: "Micropropagation of Zinnia, " M.A.L. Smith, in "Biotechnmology in Agriculture and Forestry," Volume 40,
    "High Tech and Micropropagation, " Volume VI, 1997.

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    I am very impressed with the competence of your literature searches, regarding your citation of the "Micropropagation of Zinnia" chapter. I had read that material only recently via Amazon's Search inside feature. I can't afford $429.25 to buy that volume new or even $331.18 in the new and used category, but I did read and screen capture every page of that particular chapter, including the References listing. That material is very relevant to what I intend to do with respect to exceptional zinnia specimens that I want to save a lot and lot of seeds from.

    Quoting from page 307 of the article, "While all large scale commercial propagation is almost exclusively done by seed propagation, vegetative multiplication of selected parents is desired for hybrid breeding. Vegetative propagation in particular would alleviate heavy breeder reliance on roguing to maintain pure lines. Zinnia does not respond well to cutting propagation, primarily because of poor rooting response and extreme susceptibility to propagation disease. This limitation to bulk-up of valuable breeding germplasm is alleviated through in vitro propagation, since microplants root readily and are safeguarded from fungal or bacterial pathogens during multiplication."

    They are right about it being difficult to grow zinnias from cuttings, but I have recently been fairly successful at it, with the critical addition of sterilization of both the explant, growing medium, pots, trays, and humidity domes with Physan 20. Until I started using Physan 20, bacterial rot killed most of my cuttings in the first day or two.

    None of the propagation books (that I have seen) mention growing zinnias from cuttings, because almost everybody is quite happy to grow them from seeds, and probably because of the high failure rate caused by bacterial rot and/or fungus diseases. But, with the aid of Physan 20 sterilization, I had over a 90% success rate rooting cuttings with several rooting hormones, including RooTone (NAA), Hormex No.1, No.3, and No. 8 (IBA), and Dip 'n Grow liquid (NAA + IBA). I am now close to attempting to root a zinnia cutting from a zinnia cutting, which will be the start of an extended cycle of asexual vegetative propagation of zinnias.

    But the vastly higher multiplication ratio of micropropagation techniques makes it very attractive to me to develop that capability. For the time being, I will use the conventional cuttings technique with sterilization. But, for next year, I will definitely be looking into micropropagation and even tissue culture. I will probably start with something from Kitchen Culture Kits, Inc. and I will use the product called PPM to reduce the requirement for special clean room equipment. As Stimart and Boyle noted, tissue culture can also be a source of mutations as an aid in plant breeding.

    I don't like to even think about it, but vegetative reproduction could make zinnias eligible for Plant Patents (ugh!).

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    I am going to try and get the reference on micropropagation through the library---I took a look as you did,(thanks for your the hint on how!) and I was surprised to see that it was a relatively simple procedure..

    I have had some experience in micropropagation, but only with one kind of plant and as a tool to study molecular biology, and I know that media can be very much different from plant to plant, particularly with the ratio and/or amounts of plant hormones to use. Contamination can also be a major problem! Once you have a plant you really want to preserve, it would be good to clone as many copies of it as possible through micropropagation. At present, I am interested in the somaclonal variation that may happen as a result of micropropagation, so that's what I'd like to try first. I will surface-sterilize some of the new seeds I just got, and germinate them in a sterile environment, then use those as a source of cuttings. Then, I'll just see if I can start some plants from those. With zinnia, I am brand new, so I think there will probably be some false starts, but it will be fun.

    I was fortunate to attend a Society for In Vitro Biology workshop this past summer and the professionals there had many good things to say about the Kitchen Culture Kits that are available and Dr. Stiff who has developed them, and who is said to be a great source of advice.

    It seems like you have already done a tremendous amount of work with your plants. You really ought to consider writing a book based on all of your experiences and success!

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I would need several more years of experience and many new successes before I felt qualified to write a book. For the time being, sharing my experiences here in the forums will keep me engaged and stimulated.

    I am delighted that you have had some experience in micropropagation. I will be very interested in your experience with the micropropagation of zinnias. It may turn out that somaclonal variation is a valuable tool in obtaining entirely new forms of zinnias. I would love to make crosses between various somaclonal variants. That would really spice up the zinnia breeding hobby. Keep us posted on the protocols you use and how well they work.

    Dr. Carol Stiff is very active on the Home Tissue Culture group (the one linked in the upper left-hand corner of that grouping.) The group is reasonably active, with international participation, and a lot of good give and take of information takes place there. If you aren't already a member of that group, you might want to consider joining. I would link directly to it from here, but iVillage has a policy prohibiting that.

    I haven't seen any information on zinnia protocols there, but that would be a good place to inquire about them and to share what you might learn about them. My participation there is just as an occasional curious "lurker". I have a Yahoo email address that I use exclusively for saving emails into from that Group List Serve.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    I'll try and join the group you mentioned and then, I will ask if anyone has actively worked with zinnias. There is no point in reinventing the wheel in micropropagation--it often involves a great deal of work to get optimal conditions,...and as we see, it seems there is relatively little out there with respect to zinnias. I found the protocol in the biotech reference surprisingly simple! What happens with that may be something once again...

    The micropropagation will be kind of a side-interest ...I still believe the major effort for me will be in my beginning efforts at breeding in the garden.

    I'll let everyone know how this very first micro-attempt goes...I would guess with the conditions I have, maybe by mid-December, I will be able to start initial cloning from one plant. I'm hoping that if I keep everything sterile from day 1 (sterile seed in sterile container), I will be able to avoid contamination. It will be far less challenging than subculturing material that has been out in the garden. I am a science instructor, and no doubt in time I will share the micropropagation project with my students..... if initial steps work!

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    If you communicate with Dr. Carol Stiff, either by email or on the Kitchen Culture Kits website or on the Home Tissue Culture group, if you ask she can have them send you a free sample of the PPM product, which might be of use in keeping your micropropagation sterile. She had them send me a sample of PPM, which I haven't used yet.

    When I start doing micropropagation, I will experiment with PPM and also experiment to see if Physan 20 acts as a substitute for PPM. Physan 20 costs a lot less than PPM.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "The micropropagation will be kind of a side-interest ...I still believe the major effort for me will be in my beginning efforts at breeding in the garden."

    Me too. Conventional breeding methods will remain my mainstay. Although, with my cuttings now growing under overdriven fluorescent fixtures, I am still growing some zinnia specimens that I first germinated nearly eight months ago. Despite our killing frost and current winter-like weather, it's encouraging to know that my zinnia breeding season hasn't ended yet and, with a little luck, might not end.

    Once I get my greenhouse up and operational, I might be able to get four generations of zinnias per year here in Maine. That's what I'm shooting for.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Your greenhouse will definitely help in extending the time you have for working with your plants! I have thought of possibly setting one up when I retire, but right now I am short on time to do too many extra things in the fall and winter.

    When I attended the SIVB workshop, some of us were given the "In Vitro Collecting Kit" put together for students by the Center for Conservation and Research of Endangered Wildlife at the Cincinnati Zoo . In that was included PPM, and some other items like samples of medium, and MS with macro and micronutrients, vitamins and glycine. That is the first time I had ever seen PPM. I may possibly try it later during my small experimentation.

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This pink is an F1 hybrid between a Parks Pastel "Scabious" and a Burpeeana Giant.

    {{gwi:24113}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This odd specimen had both scabious florets and conventional florets. Other flowers on the same plant had all scabious florets, so I saved seeds from this plant.

    {{gwi:24115}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This F1 hybrid also had a female scabiosa flowered parent.

    {{gwi:24117}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This one had a kind of heavy creamy texture to the color that didn't show up well in the photo. Incidentally, this group of pics are actually blow-ups from video frame grabs, so the image quality suffers from that. Next year I hope to have a digital SLR of my own to get some better quality pictures.

    {{gwi:24119}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is another of the marigold flowered series, each of which has scabiosa flowered parentage.

    {{gwi:24120}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This one is showing some conventional florets in addition to the scabiosa florets.

    {{gwi:24122}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    {{gwi:24123}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    {{gwi:24124}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    {{gwi:24125}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    {{gwi:24126}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The advantage of marigold flowered zinnias over regular marigolds is that the zinnias can have a much wider range of colors.

    {{gwi:24127}}

    That's all of my scabiosa flowered hybrid pictures for the time being. My pictures in this message thread were taken either with my wife's point-and-shoot camera (which doesn't have a viewfinder and I don't really know how to use for close-ups) or were taken from my video footage. Next year I hope to get my own digital camera and take better pictures. And, hey, I hope to have some better zinnias, too.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Those are all really nice! That last one is especially beautiful both in form and color!! I know everyone reading this thread has got to think the same....

  • paveggie
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Suggestion: start a part-2 thread on zinnia breeding. This one is getting long and slower to load. In spite of being captures, the last photos are quite interesting & easy to see the types.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Paveggie,

    Good idea. This thread is pretty loaded up with both images and text. GardenWeb used to have a 100-message limit, which I guess has been increased. See you over in Part 2.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In response to paveggie's suggestion, this thread is continued over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 2. See you there.

    MM

  • reslider
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I also am trying to breed a 6 inch creamy white colored zinnia that had dark pink edges that intensify in color as it ages.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    reslider,

    Your link doesn't work for me. I always test links in this forum's "Preview Message" before doing a "Submit Message". It would be better if we continued this dialog over in the current part of this message thread, because this part has become long and slow to load.

    You can "wade through" this message thread by going to the Part 2 link that I gave above, and then continue following the links until you get to the bottom of Part 5, or you can now just skip to It can be fun to bred your own zinnias - Part 5.

    But, reslider, please let's not continue here. This part is too old and too long. See you over in Part 5. Just click on the underlined Part 5 link I gave above. And, if you have the patience, just read Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4, but please don't post messages in them. Post your next message in Part 5. Incidentally, we probably will be opening up a Part 6 in a day or two, because Part 5 is also getting long and unwieldy.

    MM

  • tif19225jcunningham
    7 years ago

    maineman

    I want to Cross breed my zinnias this year since i looked at your thread for the last hour, lol. What would you suggest would be my first steps to start cross breeding after they grow and start blossoming. I am a 16 year old novice gardening enthusiast, I garden at a master gardeners house for a couple of years and i have plenty of tips from her for plating and getting plants around. I just need some tips for Cross pollinating. I'd appreciate your experienced guidance through steps that you go through to hybridize your zinnias. Thank you. Josh

  • zen_man
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Hi Josh,

    You have posted your message on the very ancient first
    message in this series of messages titled "It can be fun to breed your
    own zinnias". I see that many of the pictures posted here have somehow
    been lost. I have since moved from Maine to Kansas and become Zen_Man.

    " I just need some tips for Cross pollinating. I'd appreciate your
    experienced guidance through steps that you go through to hybridize your
    zinnias. "

    This series of messages is now up to Part 36. At various times in the many Parts of this message series the process of cross pollinating zinnias has
    been covered, but I won't make you spend hours wading through these
    messages looking for those particular messages, so I will respond to
    your question over in Part 36. See you over there.

    ZM


  • tif19225jcunningham
    7 years ago

    I have no idea where part 36 is. I tried looking for it but it never appeared in front of me.

  • zen_man
    7 years ago

    Hi Josh,

    " I have no idea where part 36 is. I tried looking for it but it never appeared in front of me. "

    I am sorry you had trouble finding it. The messages in this series have links from tail to head of the next part, and from head back to the previous head. So you can traverse the whole series just by clicking hyperlinks. But Part 36 is a long ways away from here, so you can get to the head of Part 36 by clicking this link:


    It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 36

    See you over there.

    ZM