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maineman_gw

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 2

maineman
16 years ago

Hi all,

Greetings from sunny Maine. It's cold, but it really is sunny, even if the days are really short during the Winter.

In response to a good suggestion from paveggie, I am opening a second part to this message thread, because the original thread was over 100 messages and loaded with both pictures and text. That made it unwieldy to open the thread.

I don't have any new pictures to show just now, and my zinnia patch is frozen and dead. We had a "white Thanksgiving" here in this part of Maine.

With the aid of Physan 20 for sterilization, I did succeed in rooting a few zinnia cuttings from some of my "breeders" and they are growing under fluorescent lights now. I'm kind of excited about how easy that was. The problem now is getting them to revert to a vegetative plant-building mode rather than just keep putting out pathetic little flowers. Oh well. It's going to be a learning experience. I've got to read up on plant growth regulators, auxins, hormones, and such.

I did receive a couple of 2008 seed catalogs: Thompson & Morgan and Stokes. Nothing new zinnia-wise. The cover of the new 2008 Burpee catalog looks interesting. I wonder if those are Profusion-type zinnias. Or some other kind of flower.

MM

Comments (60)

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Germination of seeds in the boxes on filter paper is fine--
    but these guys have a poor sense of geotropism--they "want" to put their roots up in the air or in angles that doesn't lead them to moisture--not good! So, things are going to be changed a bit in getting them started..to be reported on within the next few days. I rescued these little ones that lost their way, and they are in peat pots now.

    As of now, lights are about 1/2 inch above boxes and about 1 inch above seedlings in peat pots. Temperature one inch below lights is 88 degrees F; temperature in peat pot soil is 77 degrees F; temperature of liquid medium in boxes is 86 degrees; temperature of filter paper about 84 degrees F. All are placed on a heating mat that does not have a control for temperature, but the manufacturer estimates that it warms materials placed on it about ten (to twenty) degrees above ambient.....The room temperature is about 68 degrees F, and there is heat coming from the lights, so that seems to be consistent...more later....

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Your temperature measurements are interesting. I use a meat thermometer on a long flexible probe to measure temperatures in my germinating and growing zones. Maybe it's an oven thermometer. Some of my humidity domes have small holes for the thermometer probe. My temperatures under overdriven fluorescent fixtures tend to run a little high. I get alarmed now when I read a temperature of 95°F and take steps to reduce it, but in my Fort Worth garden, I did a lot of zinnia growing in temps of 100° or higher.

    I got the Spring 2008 Park Seed Co. seed catalog today. No new zinnias. Maybe it's going to be up to us to create our new zinnias this year. We can do it! And, guess what! Parks dropped their "Pastel Scabious Zinnias" from the catalog. I'm glad I bought a bunch of them when I had the opportunity. The 2008 Thompson & Morgan catalog still lists "Scabious Flowered Mixed", 200 seeds for $2.95. Guess I better send them an order for a reserve supply of scabiosa flowered zinnias. That strain tends to "run out" in typical field-grown conditions. One out of twenty might be really "as pictured". I suspect Parks grew dissatisfied with how many off-type non-scabious specimens appeared in their trials. And customers may have complained that a lot of theirs didn't look like the pictures.

    Three or four decades ago, a similar strain called "Howard's Crested" disappeared from the planet. Howard's Crested was like scabiosa flowered, but somewhat larger.

    Good zinnia strains, even a few All America Selections, have literally gone extinct. That seems just wrong to me. Not enough people save seeds from their zinnias. End of rant. Maybe I'll take a few pictures of my zinnia cuttings tomorrow. Oops. Just looked at the clock. Make that later today.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    I guess I should have said later this month. My zinnia cuttings have had a chance to grow into plants and some of them are blooming. I have mentioned before that some zinnia plants seem to vary somewhat from branch-to-branch and that makes me wonder if a zinnia plant is genetically uniform. This marigold flowered cutting-plant zinnia is a case in point. The lower flower has a distinct pinkish color, while the upper flower is a cream-yellow color.

    {{gwi:25991}}

    Here is a closeup of the pinkish flower:

    {{gwi:25992}}

    and here is a closeup of the cream-yellow flower:

    {{gwi:25993}}

    The donor plant for this cutting-plant had flowers that were were distinctly lighter colored:

    {{gwi:25994}}

    Whether these differences are truly genetic or just environmentally induced remains an open question in my mind. But I continue to see things on my indoor plant shelves that make me suspect that the stress of changing from a cutting into a zinnia plant can induce mutations.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    What you are seeing is really interesting! If I understand you right, the cutting you have there with the yellow and pink flowers has been taken from the "donor" plant with the last flower shown. Even the forms of the flowers are different-- where the original flower has the "toothed" scabious form, the newer flowers do not. Do you think your yellow flower might become more pink with age?

    I can see how environment might change how genes are expressed in the somatic cells of the plant, but whether the cells giving rise to floral pollen and eggs (the germline cells) have mutated genetically remains to be seen!
    And that would be hard to assess visually because you would
    have so many possibilities of offspring from a selfed cross.

    The only thing I have seen that alludes to any factor playing a role in flower color comes from Boyle and Stimart's paper in Journal of Heredity 79: 289-293 (1988) where they write " The anthocyanidins pelargonidan and cyanidin have been identified as the major flavonoids and contribute to pink, red, scarlet, orange, and lavender shades. Epidermal cell pH has been shown to modify the phenotypic expression of anthocyanins ..in ray florets of Z. elegans, with redder shades occurring at lower pH's (4.0 to 4.4) and bluer shades at higher pH's (4.5 to 4.8). All these factors contribute to color in Z. elegans; more undoubtedly exist but have not been defined." I guess environmental conditions could cause the cells in the flowers to lose some control of internal pH--just a guess, though. I would be tempted to put a test cut flower into a solution with lower pH (like, add a little vinegar) and see if there is a change in color. I know this sort of thing happens in hydrangeas to cause them to make a blue or pink color.

    My experiments have slowed down a bit with the coming holiday. Thus far, the easiest and fastest way to germinate seeds is on sterile moist filter at warm temperatures (not surprising!). I have tried various solid media with less success. My plants in the casserole dish are getting bigger though, and I may use cuttings from them to see if I can make some clones in sterile solid media.

    But, for now, I would like to wish MM and everyone who reads this thread a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Seed catalogs will soon arrive (I have Thompson and Morgan, and also the Seed Savers Exchange catalog thus far). I have to say, even though the zinnia offerings are few in the SSE catalog, that catalog is by far the most inspirational catalog out there. The things that are offered there and the photographs are to die for!!

    Happy Holidays! And Happy Gardening in 2008!

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Well, that was a good Christmas. I mentioned I had seen some things in my cutting-plants that made me suspect the process of becoming a plant from a cutting is stressful enough to tend to induce mutations or at least interesting vegetative variations. I am going to present another instance of such a variation.

    As you know, zinnias usually produce leaves in pairs, except on the flower stem itself, when single leaves are not unusual. It is also not unusual to see leaves in threes on a stem. However, I had not seen leaves in fours until this unusual cutting-plant exhibited just that.

    {{gwi:25995}}

    Here is a close up the four-way leaf junction:

    {{gwi:25996}}

    Just knowing that zinnias can do that is interesting. I will watch for further instances of that in the future. If I could get a strain of four-way zinnias with four branches at every node, that could be desirable.

    MM

    P.S. I got the Burpee 2008 seed catalog today. One new zinnia, what looks like a bright yellow Profusion/Pinwheel type. It's on the back cover.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Another example of unusual variation in the cutting-plants is this odd flower that formed on a cutting from my sunflower flowered breeder.

    {{gwi:25998}}

    This more normal flower formed on a different cutting from the same plant.

    MM

    {{gwi:26000}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Some of the cutting-plants failed to thrive, but others like this one have developed into respectable plants.

    {{gwi:26002}}

    Notice that the two flowers on that plant are somewhat different. The guard petals on one point straight out in the horizontal plane of the flower:

    {{gwi:26003}}

    The guard petals on the other flower slope noticeably downward:

    {{gwi:26004}}

    This minor variation in the flowers may be "normal" because it isn't extreme and could change with further development of the flowers. However, some of the stuff I have been seeing makes me strongly suspect that the process of developing a zinnia plant from a cutting does seem to induce some unusual things. Whether any of them are genetic remains to be seen. But if they aren't genetic, it shows that zinnias can respond to environmental factors in some surprising ways.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    I started my cuttings in little 2½-inch square pots and didn't repot many of them as soon as I should have. Many of them managed to grow quite tall from the little pots, like this cutting from a golden yellow echinacea flowered hybrid.

    {{gwi:3218}}

    It has a fairly good on-type echinacea flowered bloom and two immature blooms that are questionable.

    {{gwi:26005}}

    The "good" bloom has a classic echinacea flowered form.

    {{gwi:26006}}

    I need to start removing blooms to encourage vegetative development.

    MM

  • pls8xx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It would not be summer without a zinnia ....

    {{gwi:26007}}

    or two ....

    {{gwi:26008}}

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    You are doing so well with your winter-grown cuttings! I would guess very few, or even, no other, people are growing zinnias from cuttings now! Are you using any kind of light other than fluorescent?

    Again, it is interesting to see the kinds of forms of flowers and leaves your cuttings are showing. I've never really closely observed the differences in zinnias during the (summer) life of a plant--except I've seen plants with the petal-less flowers and also, I've noticed that on some plants, the first flower is often the best flower that the plant produces. I don't think I've ever seen change in color..it seems from what you're seeing indoors, that the plants are sensitive to environmental change.

    With my little seedlings, a goal was to get axillary buds that I would then transfer to media for cloning of new plants. So, I did what is commonly done to induce side-branching, and that is, to nip off the terminal (apical) bud. The zinnias are very persistant in forming new terminal buds, though. When I nip the bud, I get several leaves that are perpendicular to the stem (not branches), and then the plant continues to grow straight up. I get an effect almost like your "4-leaf" look on the seedlings. Here, from the bottom up, I have a pair of cotyledons, then a pair of true leaves, and a second pair of true leaves. At that point, I took off the terminal bud, so I got a small pair of leaves coming out at right angles, then above, another pair of leaves surrounding a new terminal bud. All the "nipped" plants seem to behave in the same way.

    {{gwi:26009}}

    JG

    P.S. pls8, your pics are nice!

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pls8xx,

    Those are nice cactus flowered zinnias, and good photographs, too. Thanks for posting them. From the looks of those, you grow zinnias very well.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "So, I did what is commonly done to induce side-branching, and that is, to nip off the terminal (apical) bud."

    By "terminal bud", do you mean just the growing point, and not an actual flower bud?

    "The zinnias are very persistent in forming new terminal buds, though."

    When I pinch out a flower bud, it is normal that the leaves just under the bud will develop to "full" size, and that there will be stem elongation between the leaf joints so that the plant continues to increase in height. But that process is limited by how many leaf nodes there were left under your pinch. The inter-nodal distance can "stretch out" quite a bit, as you can see in my cutting picture on Thu, Dec 20, 07 at 15:19. But I think with patience you will get your side branching. Zinnias like a lot of light and we both are kind of lucky that we can grow them inside under lights. But they want that fluorescent light so much that they will stretch and grow right into the fluorescent tubes and get scorched in the process.

    To try to combat that, I am converting some more of my fluorescent fixtures to the overdriven mode. And I am continuing my efforts preparing the foundation for my lean-to greenhouse project. I am hoping that my Winter zinnias will do better with some "real" sunlight.

    "Are you using any kind of light other than fluorescent?"

    No, I am not using any kind of incandescent light. Almost all of my fluorescent tubes are Philips T8 4100K Cool Whites. That 4100K is fairly "warm" for a cool white. The bluer cool whites can run as high as 6500K, but for the time being I am sticking with the 4100K bulbs because they do have a somewhat warmer spectrum and they are very economical. I get them in boxes of 10 tubes for $19.95 at Home Depot, which makes the individual bulbs cost $2 each.

    They are rated at 20,000 hours, which means they will last for many years of normal usage. I have had one bulb burn out though, so that 20,000 hours isn't an absolute guarantee. I'll eventually try some better T8 bulbs, but these are fine for the time being. I much prefer the slim 32-watt T8 bulbs over the fatter 40-watt T12 bulbs, although my $8 Home Depot Commercial Shoplights can burn both kinds.

    MM

  • carriein
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Maineman, the photos are astonishing! They feel like a drawing. Subtle beauty.

    Hi James, I truely love cactus zinnias.

  • pls8xx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi carrie! Yep, I like those those zinnias, the big bold ones. Just at twilight, with a bright sky but no direct sun, they glow like a neon beer sign at a juke joint. Color me redneck.

    Hey MM and JG, You can probably guess from my pictures that one of my favorite strains is the Burpeena. When the seed became unavailable I almost cried. Though they are back, the new ones don't seem the same. Which leads to my interest in this thread. It may be that if I want the zinnias of a few years ago, I may have to do my own selection and seed saving.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pls8xx,

    "You can probably guess from my pictures that one of my favorite strains is the Burpeeana. When the seed became unavailable I almost cried. Though they are back, the new ones don't seem the same."

    We are in total agreement on that. I don't know if you remember when Burpee first introduced the Burpeeana zinnias, but they showed a picture of this row of individual symmetrical bush-like plants in a sort of hedge arrangement. It was the first time I realized how important plant habit was for zinnias, and how individual zinnia "bushes" could look good in a landscape. I wish those pictures were still available somewhere online, because they would make it clear how far the current "reconstituted" Burpeeanas miss the mark set by the originals.

    "It may be that if I want the zinnias of a few years ago, I may have to do my own selection and seed saving."

    I think you will enjoy doing that. I know I will. When Burpee abandoned the Burpeeanas, other seedsmen such as Stokes continued growing them, or subcontracting their production to growers. Last year I grew White Burpeeanas from Stokes (this year they refer to the separate colors as "Cactus Flowered, probably to be less in-your-face to Burpee). As you may recall, in the "good old days" Burpee offered Burpeeanas in a selection of several separate colors as well as a mixture and the Burpeeanas at that time were very "on type" with respect to plant habit. Stokes' strain of white Burpeeanas had not been rogued with respect to plant habit and only a rather small fraction had what I would call the "true" Burpeeana plant habit. However, they had rogued the field thoroughly for color, because every plant did have white flowers.

    Stokes still carries a Burpeeana Giant Mix described as "(20 in./51 cm). Blooms are often 6 in./15 cm in diameter and color range includes orange, gold, yellow, pink, rose, salmon, white, red, violet and many bicolors." That description sounds like a field mixture to me, because so many colors are included in the description. However, in their printed 2008 catalog on page 87 under BURPEEANA, they say "The Giant Mixture has been carefully blended from separate colors and is not a cheaper field grown mixture." It seems to me that it would be difficult to grow so many colors separately and blend them, but I will be happy to grow the mixture whether it is blended or a simple field grown mixture. I plan to grow a lot of them and keep only about the best one percent, with the remaining 99% going to my zinnia compost pile at first bloom.

    I have a couple of objectives in mind. One is to recover the original bush-like compact Burpeeana plant habit with large flowers, good flower forms, and good colors. The other is to select out a flower form that I refer to as "spider flowered". This is one of my selected spider flowered "breeders" from 2007.

    {{gwi:24099}}

    (A Velcro band with a breeder code is partially visible on its stem.) I want to improve on that flower form to make it much more spider flowered, and to do that I need to grow a lot of cactus flowered zinnias and select for still longer and more narrow down-rolled petals. I want a zinnia strain that rivals the spider flowered chrysanthemums. And, as a sub-strain, I want to get bicolored and tricolored spider flowered zinnias.

    I think the offer has expired now, but Stokes recently offered free shipping on orders over $50, so I purchased one pound of their Burpeeana Giant Mixture. This is a picture of the "packet" it came in. (Notice the country of origin.)

    {{gwi:26010}}

    So I guess I will be growing a lot of "Zany Tanzanian Zinnias" this year. I don't have near enough space to plant one pound of zinnia seed all at once, but I will go through those seeds looking for big, long seeds, which might be more likely to produce spider flowered flower forms. And since I will be removing all but the best plants, there will be lots of vacated space for replants and re-replants, so I will go through that one pound of seed more rapidly than you might suppose. And build a sizable zinnia compost pile in the process. Incidentally, I will also be growing Burpeeanas from Burpee again this year, as well as a lot of Burpee Giant Hybrids. And some hybrids of my own from 2007.

    Well, it's 2008. Happy New Year, and good luck with your zinnia growing this year. We both think alike about the original Burpeeanas. Do you also happen to remember the Zenith F1 hybrid cactus flowered zinnias? Burpee also discontinued them prematurely.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM.

    By the terminal bud, I meant the vegetative growing tip--some folks also call that the "apical meristem." I think you're right in that probably I should wait until the plants have more leaves before I try and get them to make vegetative buds coming off from the side (axillary).

    I use 40 watt coolwhite deluxe bulbs that have a little more red light than do the coolwhites. What do you mean by "overdriven"? I think, as zinnias prefer lots of light, that your selection of lights to make your plants bloom as they do is a good one!

    I like cactus-flowered zinnias, but it's been awhile since I purchased seeds, and I forget which company I got them from. But as the years have gone on, I see their traits coming out in the mixed offspring.

    {{gwi:26011}}

    {{gwi:26012}}

    {{gwi:26014}}

    {{gwi:26015}}

    {{gwi:26016}}

    The seeds I have purchased for this year that are cactus-flowered include J.W. Jung's New Burpee's Hybrids, Burpee's Burpeeana Giants Mix, HPS Seeds Cactus Mix Improved, Park's Bright Jewels Mixed,, and Thompson and Morgan's Giant Cactus Flowered F1 Hybrid.

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "I think you're right in that probably I should wait until the plants have more leaves before I try and get them to make vegetative buds coming off from the side (axillary)."

    I don't know whether I'm right or not. This asexual propagation of zinnias is new for me too, so everything involved with it is a learning experience. It may or may not be a good idea to wait for the apical meristem to transition into an actual flower bud. If you do, you can get more side branches. The downside is that the plant has transitioned from vegetative development to floral development.

    That's an interesting variety of zinnia pictures. The first one is unusual and worthy of being designated as a breeder and used as a female parent. I particularly like its curved petals.

    The exaggerated petal tip downroll of the little ivory white one makes it interesting. Your yellow based red-orange specimen shows cactus flowered influence, indicating that it descended from a natural hybrid between a cactus flowered zinnia and a Whirligig type zinnia. I see that bicolored zinnias have a good representation in your zinnia gene pool.

    The bottom light tangerine colored flower has a classic flower form combined with a good color and matching center. A zinnia like it would be another candidate for being a female breeder. Without halfway trying, you have been, in effect, breeding zinnias for the past several years.

    "The seeds I have purchased for this year that are cactus-flowered include J.W. Jung's New Burpee's Hybrids, Burpee's Burpeeana Giants Mix, HPS Seeds Cactus Mix Improved, Park's Bright Jewels Mixed,, and Thompson and Morgan's Giant Cactus Flowered F1 Hybrid."

    T&M's Giant Cactus Flowered Mixed are probably not "true" F1 hybrids, except that, as a probable field mix, there would be a certain percentage of random bee cross pollinations. I think that you are doing a very good thing in obtaining seeds from a variety of sources. Cactus flowered zinnias from one grower's field can differ significantly from cactus flowered zinnias from a different grower's field.

    "What do you mean by "overdriven"? "

    It is a rather simple modification to a fluorescent fixture to apply significantly more current to each fluorescent tube to make it burn about 70% brighter. I learned about it several years ago from a talented electronic hobbyist who goes by the username of "Zink" here in the GardenWeb in the Growing under Lights forum. It takes two $8 Home Depot Commercial Shoplights to make a single overdriven shoplight, because you "cannibalize" an electronic ballast from one of them to install in the other one. The two ballasts nearly double the light output of the fixture. The overdriven bulbs are noticeably warmer, but not dangerously hot. They are about 130°, which is much cooler than a cup of coffee or tea. You can hold your finger on one without getting burned. Incidentally, the electronic ballasts actually run cooler because, in the overdriven configuration, each ballast drives only one bulb instead of two. So the ballasts are "loafing".

    Overdriving probably reduces the service life of your fluorescent tubes, but for bulbs that are rated at 20,000 hours it is "worth it" if they drop to 10,000 hours to put out nearly twice the light.

    Overdriving only makes sense after you have crowded as many fluorescent fixtures as you can fit over your plant shelf. I mount four two-bulb shoplights over each 2-foot by 4-foot shelf. I would mount five or more shoplights over each shelf, but they simply won't fit because there isn't room for more than four shoplights in the span of 24 inches. So eight bulbs is as many as I can get for a shelf. But by overdriving the fixtures, I can get the light equivalent of over a dozen bulbs per shelf. That's some pretty brilliant lighting. Not as bright as HID lights can be, but at $16 per fixture using $2 bulbs, overdriven fluorescents cost much less.

    If you are interested in trying overdriven fixtures, I can link you to circuit diagrams for the conversion, as well as detailed information about overdriving. After you do one, you realize that it's a simple modification. I think with a little practice you could convert a fixture in about 30 minutes, but I usually spend about an hour because I take extra care to do a quality wiring job. And I work slower than a professional electrician.

    MM

  • ninecrow
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Maineman
    Sorry to Hijack your post.... But do you think I could grow zinnias inside on a Sunny Windowsill (I'd like to try my had at Breeding) or do you think it's not even worth trying?
    Thanks
    NC

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    I really like your red, spike-petalled flower, by the way. I hope you get lots of similar ones like it! That one is very interesting, along with the flowers you have from the one plant (pale pink flower originally --then, both pink and yellow flowers appearing in the cutting). I am really looking forward to seeing what everyone gets this coming summer!

    I am kind of fascinated by the possible pH factor influence. I have lots of seeds for purple flowers. I might go ahead and grow them in our somewhat sweet soil out here in Indiana, then acidify a patch of soil and grow some there to see if anything happens with the appearance of the flowers.

    The fixture I am using right now is one I purchased from a garden supply company several years ago, and has four four- foot long tubes in an eighteen inch wide fixture. So far, I've only used it to start seeds before transplanting small plants outside. If I really get into growing annuals indoors, I might try the overdriven lights. Thanks for letting me know what they are! I didn't know that one tube can actually be brighter if only the one is installed in a two-tube ballast (I think I have that right).

    Below is a photo (not the best) of one of the better scabious flowers I've had. The scabiosas are always such a mix of forms. I tend to like the more pastel ones, actually.

    {{gwi:26017}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    NC,

    "But do you think I could grow zinnias inside on a Sunny Windowsill (I'd like to try my hand at Breeding) or do you think it's not even worth trying?"

    I think almost anything is worth trying. I personally have had rather poor luck growing anything in windowsills, but that is no reason why you shouldn't try. Even failures are worth doing, because we learn from them. And your windowsill might be a springboard for starting some zinnias early for planting out this spring. Or a springboard for more advanced indoor gardening.

    I used my fluorescent lights to get a very early start on my 2007 garden and I was able to set out a couple of dozen hybrid zinnias that were beginning to bloom. So I was actually doing cross pollinating outdoors in June among my own hybrids from the previous year, which was quite a trick in our short Maine growing season. Our "safe" no-frost date here in this part of Maine is the 31st of May.

    And you are very welcome to post here at any time and any place. We are always glad to hear from our friends "from across the pond". We would be honored if we could help you try your hand at zinnia breeding.

    MM

  • pls8xx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is an idea I may try this year for zinnia and maybe some other plants as well.

    A section of light weight PVC pipe is run through a saw to give a cut on one side. Next the pipe is saw chopped into 6 inch lengths as seen below.

    Duct tape is then used around the pipe to pull the cut edges together and close the gap. These are then set on a flat surface and filled with a grow mix. I would hope to grow zinnias to the first bloom stage.

    {{gwi:1354}}

    I could then select the best to be moved to my garden. This would be done by sliding a thin spatula type tool under the plant tubes and setting them to the planting hole. the duct tape would be removed and a wedge tool would spread the saw gap to release the plant. With loose soil pulled around the tube, I would then pull the tube up and over the plant.

    Do you think I could get to a first bloom with a 4 by 6 container?

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "I really like your red, spike-petalled flower, by the way. I hope you get lots of similar ones like it!"

    I got over a hundred seeds from it, and I plan to plant every one of them. Incidentally, most of those seeds were rather long and narrow, further suggesting that there is some correlation between seed shape and petal shape. That increases my confidence that I can pick out some long, narrow seeds from that one-pound package from Stokes to get a head start on expanding my gene pool of spider flowered zinnias.

    "I didn't know that one tube can actually be brighter if only the one is installed in a two-tube ballast (I think I have that right)."

    Well, it isn't enough just to install one bulb in the fixture. Actually, there wouldn't be any advantage to leaving one side of the fixture empty. That would actually cut the light from the fixture in half. You do have to add another ballast and re-wire according to the circuit diagrams in this link: Overdrive, compliments of Zink

    Your red scabiosa flowered picture is not as out-of-focus as you think. A lot of digital cameras, including both of the point-and-shoots that I currently use, grossly exaggerate the reds, which can obscure details and make the focus look worse than it is. I took the liberty of downloading your red scabiosa flowered picture and desaturated it, re-focused it a bit, and added some film grain to soften a few of the ragged edges. I think I may have over-done the de-saturation, but here is the result:

    {{gwi:26018}}

    Incidentally, that looks like a very "on-type" scabiosa specimen, and I would definitely use one like that as a breeder, provided that it had a decent looking plant. It's easy to apply pollen to the stigmas on the guard petals, and with a little patience, you can pull open some of the disk florets and apply pollen to the stigmas within them.

    Don't forget to let us know the results of that experiment on the effect of soil pH on zinnia flower color. That sounds like a worthy Science Fair project. Too bad they don't let adults enter. (grin)

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pls8xx,

    That is ingenious. And some darn good technical illustration, too.

    "Do you think I could get to a first bloom with a 4 by 6 container?"

    I've been getting to first bloom with my "1-liter" pots, made from the bottom part of 2-liter soft drink bottles. They are 4¼" in diameter, so, yes, I think you could get to first bloom with your 4 x 6 PVC containers. Just make sure they get enough nutrients, including some calcium. The commercial growing mixes contain some calcium, but not enough for large plants. Zinnias are somewhat heavy feeders. And if you are using a soilless growing medium, use a urea-free nutrient formula.

    If you decide to do this thing, keep us posted on your progress. I've never seen this before, but it might work.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Yes, the zinnia looks a little better now--although, it was actually somewhat darker! But, you can now see more details!

    Thanks for the link for the fluorescent tubes--that has a lot of good information. What will you do when you have the greenhouse set up? Will you continue with the super-bright lights? Probably in the winter, they would still be very helpful. I found a link while surfing the net several days ago--it shows some zinnias grown under different types of lights--kind of interesting:

    --the picture is found at the bottom of the page.

    As a matter of fact, I've always enjoyed science fairs, and I've seen lots of kids do the pH experiment, just not with zinnias ;-). I knew nothing about pH when I was their age!

    Here are a couple of other scabious forms I've had in my garden....

    {{gwi:26019}}

    pls8++, your design is interesting, and a good way to make lots of heavy duty containers. How will you water your plants? I was thinking if you do it from below, it might be a little difficult for the water to get in if the sides on the bottom are flush to the flat..

    JG

  • pls8xx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG, a lot of my garden methods deviate greatly from standard. My beds are filled with a sand clay mix. If I put seedlings in cell packs I use conventional potting mixes, but for growing on in full size pots I usually use the same garden sand / clay with a bit of vermiculite and peat added. The top of this mix dries very quickly, so I am able to water from the top without problems.

    Below is a photo I made this week of one of my beds with a California poppy seedling. Note that a few weeks of rain brings extra sand to the surface. During the summer the sand surface gets very hot and dry which deters 90% of weeds, prevents slug and fungal problems, which in Arkansas can be big problems with heat and high humidity.

    Most gardeners here lose their zinnias to powdery mildew. But check the photos I posted above. No sign of powdery mildew and no fungicide was used.

    {{gwi:26020}}

  • ninecrow
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Maineman
    Which would be the best to start with and can I start them off soon? I have a Lighted Fishtank that I use as a Prop chamber
    Thanks
    NC

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pls8xx,

    I was thinking also that your methods, with respect to California poppy and zinnia, are more or less copying the type of soil that may exist in their native regions in SW US or Mexico, giving them similar hot and dry conditions.

    The link I posted earlier for zinnia growth under different lights didn't show up--here it is:

    http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/fluorescent.html

    JG


  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Wow! I think my next fluorescent bulbs will be GE Plant and Aquarium Wide Spectrum tubes. I will be interested to compare them against my Philips Cool Whites. That's a very interesting experiment on that website, and it's rather amazing that some of the fluorescent lights appeared to out-perform sunlight. Thanks much for that link. I plan to further explore that site.

    I agree that I over-did the de-saturation on your red scabi. I could have preserved the red better while showing most of the added detail. I just wanted to show that detail was there under the red flare. Your last pic also has some red flare, although it is probably a little more out-of-focus. I am glad to see that you already have raised several scabiosa flowered zinnias, and have some experience with them.

    "What will you do when you have the greenhouse set up? Will you continue with the super-bright lights? Probably in the winter, they would still be very helpful."

    I will deploy a lot of fluorescent lights in the greenhouse. They may not all be overdriven. At the very least, I will use them to extend the day length to at least 16 hours. I don't know yet whether I will have the timers set to have the lights on during the day. During cloudy days, that might be helpful, but I think I will begin by setting the timers to start the days a few hours early, shut off during the day, and come on again in the evening to extend the length of the day a few more hours.

    Our Winter days are quite short. You really realize that we are up toward the top of the planet during the Winter, when the sun follows a short arc across our Southern sky. Fortunately, the greenhouse will be on the South side of the house and "see" most of that Winter sunlight, while being protected from our cold North winds.

    As a compensation, our Summer days are quite long, and zinnias and other garden plants grow luxuriantly in response to that. Have you seen pictures of some of those Alaska cabbages? They have longer days than we do.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    NC,

    "Which would be the best to start with and can I start them off soon? I have a Lighted Fishtank that I use as a Prop chamber."

    Zinnias start blooming in 6 to 8 weeks, so that could be your guide as to when to start them. I think it would be best to start with one or more of the compact bedding strains, to help avoid problems with the plants growing too large for your available space. I am not sure that all the varieties available here are available in the UK, but Thompson & Morgan sells in both places, so one candidate would be Parasol Mixed. Unwins is not widely distributed in the US, but they have Zinnia Belvedere. At 15 inches, Bright Spark Mix is a little taller. I don't think it is available here. Zinnia Short Stuff is very compact for its flower size. Zinnia Early Wonder, at 18 inches, might be inconveniently tall for you. It might be interesting to cross Swizzle Cherry & Ivory or Swizzle Scarlet & Yellow with some of the other zinnias.

    Crosses between F1 hybrids are unpredictable but can produce some novel results. Zinnia Thumbelina is an open pollinated very miniature zinnia. I'm not familiar with UK seed sources, so there are probably several small and medium sized plants that I have missed. I don't know where you would find it, but Zinnita is an improved Thumbelina. F1 Zinnia Magellan and Dreamland Mix F1 are popular compact strains here, and some seed houses have them in separate colors, but I don't know of UK sources at the moment.

    Your lighted fish tank might be a good place to start a few zinnias, but they would need a some air circulation after they got their first true leaves. A small electric fan might help. Maybe that would be a good time to move some of them to a window sill.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Have you received the new Select Seeds catalog? They have some cactus-flowered zinnas with the sorts of traits you like--there are some pictured on the cover. You can also check the online catalog. They have an ssortment of other types of zinnias, too

    http://www.selectseeds.com/

    JG

  • pls8xx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK, you guys got me fired up on this zinnia breeding. Truth is, I saved a lot of seeds from last year. But like an amateur, I selected the blooms mostly by memory of what I thought were the better ones. Dried up blooms don't tell you what the color was and my memory never was too good. Then they all got saved in a single container. An idiot could see this method ain't gonna work.

    My real problem is that I know how lazy I am and what a bad record keeper I am. I didn't do my homework when I was in school; so I'm over 60 and I'm not about to start now.

    I noticed MM uses some kind of velcro band to mark his blooms and I've been thinking of a system that might work for a lazy ol redneck.

    My latest thoughts on this are as follows: I use a spreadsheet to lay out a table of sequential five digit numbers. I capture this table with my photo editor as a graphic. The graphic is flipped horizontally so it will come out right when printed onto an iron-on transfer sheet like is used on T-shirts.

    The transfer sheets are then cut in vertical strips of numbers. The strips are laid in the middle of a one foot wide piece of finely woven cloth and ironed on. Then the cloth is cut horizontally to yield a half inch by one foot cloth strips with a unique number in the middle.

    When I select a bloom, I lay the number strip across the bloom and take a photo. Then the strip is tied to the bloom. Later the number is kept with the saved seed.

    The photos are transfered to the computer and saved with the bloom number used as the file name.

    Next I will need a way to carry the number forward along with the many seedlings.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Thanks for the alert about Select Seeds. Yes, I definitely want some seeds from the field that those cactus flowered zinnias came from. I think I would designate that ivory-colored zinnia with a burnt orange center as a breeder. And several other specimens looked promising, too. The dark rose colored specimen on the right side has some "saw-toothed" petal edges that look interesting. I will be sending them an order.

    MM

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pls8xx,

    You have me totally convinced that you have "the right stuff" and that you will be successful at this. Your numbered photos sound like an excellent idea, and I think I will do that myself for the 2008 season. I currently don't have photos for many of my breeders. And, as they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words".

    I do keep a garden journal, with a separate page devoted to each chosen breeder zinnia, with a code number at the top of the page, and a word description of it, and when room allows, codes and descriptions for its progeny. I do need a way to incorporate pictures. I think I may get a large scrapbook as a reincarnation of my garden journal.

    "Next I will need a way to carry the number forward along with the many seedlings."

    I started my zinnia breeding project in 2006, and resolved to keep my coding system as simple as I could. My first selected breeder, a large ivory colored Burpeeana with good petal texture and plant habit, was designated simply as "1". I labeled its central flower as 1 and the side branches as 1a, 1b, 1c, etc. That was in case I planned to use significantly different male pollen on each branch. As it turned out, I used the same criterion for selecting male pollen for all of its flowers (selected Whirligigs and other Burpeeanas), so I combined all of its flowers (1, 1a, 1b, 1c, ...) in a common seed packet labeled as "1".

    The first selected progeny of "1" in the Spring of 2007 was labeled as 1-1. Successive choices from that packet were labeled 1-2, 1-3, and so on, in order of their selection as breeders. Not all of the progeny of "1" were designated as breeders, and the rejects went to the compost pile. Apparently the bees made some bad crosses. (I like to blame stuff on the bees.)

    I grew progeny of 1-1 in the Fall 2007 crop and the first selected breeder from it was designated as 1-1-1. In 2006 my selected breeders were numbered 1, 2, 3, ... 62, 63. In 2007 I needed a way to designate a different year, so the new breeders selected from commercial packets were designated A-1, A-2, ... A-18, A-19. I will be growing a lot of commercial seed in 2008 and those new breeders will be designated B-1, B-2, B-3, ...

    You may have noticed that so far I am keeping track of only maternal breeding lines, with descriptions of male pollen donors left out. Frequently the difference in the appearance of the child from the parent makes it possible to make a good guess as to what the male parent was.

    "I selected the blooms mostly by memory of what I thought were the better ones. Dried up blooms don't tell you what the color was and my memory never was too good. Then they all got saved in a single container."

    Those seeds can be a good start this year, even though you didn't label them. If you wish to segregate the seeds from each separate head, you can do that and then plant them out in little separate "patches" for each head. Those groupings will look kind of good in your zinnia patch. You can even assign a code to each seedhead, even though you don't know its color. The colors will become evident enough when they bloom this year. Even though you can't tell the flower colors from the dried heads, you can tell something about the flower size and possibly even the flower form.

    You can also tell something from the shape and size of the seeds. For example, the rose-red spider flowered zinnia pictured above in my message Posted by maineman z5a ME (My Page) on Tue, Jan 1, 08 at 2:40 was designated as A1b (the third bloom on that plant) and, once again, I combined A1, A1a, A1b, and A1c into a common seed packet. It had long narrow petals and for the most part, its seeds were long and rather narrow, as you can see in this picture:

    {{gwi:26021}}

    I find that 3x5 cards and Ziploc® Snack bags are a good team for packaging most of my seeds. The seeds should be dry before packaging them in the Ziploc bags, because the bags are relatively waterproof.

    {{gwi:26022}}

    Sometimes, rather than use a larger bag, I just use two or more of the Snack sized bags.

    MM

  • pls8xx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks MM, it helps to see the systems that others have used.

    My wife does genealogy and this morning I'm wondering if the software she uses would be adaptable to keeping up with the lines of parentage in flower breeding.

    Also, for me, plant habit is as important as the blooms. How am I going to document and organize records on that aspect?

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM and Pls8xx,

    You both have inspired me to keep better records of zinnia gardening and seed-keeping! About ten (or more, when I think about it) years ago I just bought as many kinds of zinnias as possible, opened the packs, mixed the seeds, and planted them. Every year, I have collected seeds from the flowers, and if I saw a new kind of available zinnia, I would mix in the new seeds and sow. As a rule, I haven't separated the seeds of individual flowers; in fact, I usually harvest seeds when they really haven't yet dried down but are fairly well-developed, and the petals still have color, then spread them out, mixed, on a newspaper to dry.

    This year changing these habits is going to be a major effort! If I'm going to keep track of all the new strains I bought this year, I will have to make sure I mark them all by row in the garden as to strain and vendor, keep a record of crosses, and use the netted covers for flowers planned or used for crossing. Of course, I will also have a patch reserved for the seeds I have kept from random crosses of the past year, and let random crosses occur, again throwing in some of the new seeds I bought this year. I can't completely ditch that habit! But, I am going to have to prepare more flower beds, that's for sure!

    Anyway, now I am going to set up Excel charts for the different strains and their sources, giving them different codes, and setting up columns for future crosses. Planting dates, average germination dates, and first flowering and seed collecting dates should be noted. Also, I want to insert photographs of parent flowers and plants on the spreadsheet, and keep photo records of the offspring as well. This will give a much better idea of the genetics and heritability of the traits, which can be correlated with what is in the literature. I think all my record keeping will be stored on computer, DVD, and/or flash drive. Exceptional results, I will print out and place in a 3-ring binder.

    I have often used snack zip-lock bags for seed exchange--these will be great for seeds of individual flowers.

    I am tempted to use masking tape with Sharpie labeling for individual plants, although possibly I should use fabric like cotton or Velcro. I am mostly concerned with how well the Sharpie ink will stand up against the sun when on masking tape.

    Right now, I have to be content with waiting for the little plants I have now to further develop so I will have enough material to try some tissue culture......

    JG

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pls8xx,

    That is a great idea of using genealogy software! You can insert pictures of individuals' data, plant habits, and flowers within each plant "family."

    JG

  • pls8xx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I asked my wife about the software. She uses Family Tree Maker, but she suggested I look at the free software... PAF (Personal Ancestral File). I downloaded it.

    I put in some test data and it's looks like a good fit for what I want. It allows attached photos, notes, and even has a tool to generate a html web page of the data. Below are a couple of screen shots ...

    {{gwi:26023}}

    {{gwi:26024}}

    {{gwi:26025}}

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pls8xx,

    I agree with JG, using genealogy software for plant breeding records sounds like a great idea. I'll have to give that a try. It might even encourage me to start keeping track of the male pollen donors.

    MM

  • pls8xx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I forgot to include a link to the free program.

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    "I am tempted to use masking tape with Sharpie labeling for individual plants, although possibly I should use fabric like cotton or Velcro. I am mostly concerned with how well the Sharpie ink will stand up against the sun when on masking tape."

    You can always watch the labels to see if they are starting to fade. They won't disappear overnight. In 2006 I used white electrical tape as labels on my soda pop pots, and I wrote on them with Ultra Fine Point Sharpies®, using several colors including black. When I set the zinnias plants out in the garden, I just tossed a couple of handfuls of soil in the just-emptied pots, and set them near the plant as a ready made label. I wasn't paying close attention, because the Sharpie pens were all listed as Permanent, but those labels faded rapidly in the sun and were unreadable after maybe six weeks. The Sharpie ink was sitting up on top of the white plastic electrical tape, so it was a thin layer, which made it very susceptible.

    I wound up having to depend on my memory and the appearance of the zinnias to know what they were. Apparently all of those Sharpies were dye-based. Even the black was a blend of purple and green dyes. There are garden marking pens that are pigment based (probably carbon black) and they should be very light-fast.

    However, last year I abandoned using the pots as markers and started using wooden shims from Home Depot as inexpensive markers. I wrote on them with Fine Point Sharpie® markers (their points are actually kind of blunt) and let the ink "soak in" to the fibers of the wood. Those stood up just fine in the sun and rain. However, the soil started "eating" the buried ends of the markers and it became obvious that they wouldn't be reusable. As the zinnia plants became bushy it also became difficult to see those shims, so I started using Velcro® tape on the zinnia stems. I also wrote on the Velcro tape with black Fine Point Sharpies and let the ink "soak in" to the tape, and those proved to be permanent as well.

    This year I may try something different. It is useful to have more information than just a code on the flower label, including the identity of the male zinnias you are pollinating it with. It's inconvenient to have to refer to my garden journal for this information.

    Many years ago, I used white card stock labels written on with ordinary lead pencil. The labels were stapled to Twistems® which attached them to the flower stem. I may return to that, although they did tend to look a bit "tacky". They made my zinnia patch look like I was having a "White Tag" sale.

    Last year those green Velcro labels were almost invisible in the zinnia patch, and that was good. But they didn't have room for anything more than a code. Some kind of leaf-green label that you could write on easily would be good. I'll give it some more thought.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG and MM,

    I downloaded the genealogy program, and it looks like it will do the job. Thanks for telling about the link. I have another program here at home, but I think I prefer to use one for family, the other for flowers ;-).

    In the HPS Seed catalog, there is item #53290, a "sunfast, waterproof,and permanent" marker, for $2.95. Also, there are vinyl strip tags #90587 (white, such as you see on trees for sale in the nursery) at $34.95 for a roll of 1000.
    Gardener's Supply Company sells a 75 foot roll of green Velcro ties for $9.95 (#33-978).

    Pencil on a rough surface is another type of marker that does't fade, but often doesn't come out very dark.

    JG

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whoops! I meant pls8xx, not myself, in that last greeting.
    So much for proof-reading, and using my pseudonym.....

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One serious problem that I had in my zinnia breeding was that bees will grab any available zinnia pollen. I mentioned previously that I started using "hairnets" last year and they solved the bee problem. I used to have to race the bees to get at the pollen on my selected breeder zinnias, but the nets let me relax and get the pollen over a period of many hours. The nets insured a good supply of breeder pollen and they can also keep the bees from randomly pollinating female breeder flowers.

    I make the "hair nets" from mesh fabric. I got mesh fabric from the fabric department of Wal-Mart. The material is inexpensive and has an open mesh that allows easy air circulation and sun exposure, while keeping bees from getting at the zinnia flowers. The nets are reusable. The nets don't harm the flowers or plants at all.

    I have seen butterflies sipping nectar from zinnias through the mesh of a net, but they don't go after the zinnia pollen, so I don't mind if the butterflies do feed through the mesh.

    The nets are simply approximately square "sacks". I fold over a rectangular piece of the mesh and secure the top seam and side seem by weaving a piece of black yarn through the mesh. I alternate sides with the yarn about every ½" to ¾". The seam doesn't need to be really closely stitched. Obviously I leave the bottom open to allow the "hairnet" to fit down over the flower. I use black mesh and yarn because the black nets are less conspicuous in the zinnia patch.

    {{gwi:16465}}

    I make the nets in several sizes to accommodate different sized flowers. You shouldn't have any trouble making these nets to your own specifications and designs from needles, yarn, and mesh fabric from a local fabric store. Deeper nets are more wind resistant, but shallower nets are easier to remove and replace for access to the zinnia.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Thanks so much for the illustration. That's a good idea, and one I plan on trying! Also, your flower is very nice..

    Below is a photo of my "patch" last summer:
    {{gwi:26026}}

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Thanks for posting the picture of your zinnia patch. Your paths are much narrower than mine were and you made much better use of your space. This year I plan to follow your lead and devote much less space to paths in order to grow a larger number of zinnias.

    Incidentally, do your rows run east-west or north-south? Mine ran approximately east-west the last two years. This year I will probably repeat that, with a small adjustment to get better alignment with the sun. The house here is aligned with the road in front, but the road does not follow a true east-west direction. It heads more toward north-east by east. In 2006 I aligned my rows with the house, but that caused a noticeable misalignment with respect to the sun's arc-path. I used a compass last year to lay out my rows more nearly east-west, but I did not adjust for magnetic declination, so I think my rows differed from a true east-west by 5 or 10 degrees -- maybe more.

    I guess with narrow paths the sun alignment is not so important. With my wide paths I wanted the zinnias to cast their shadows in the paths most of the time, rather than on each other.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    Every year, I harvest so many seeds that I try to use as many of them as possible, but really, I never even come close to using them all, even though I give a lot away to friends and to SSE requesters. So, I end up with fairly close rows, just big enough to till between with my big tiller for the first month or so (the tiller about 2 feet wide), then I have to till with my smaller tiller (about 10 inches wide) when the plants get big, then finally, no tiller at all. By then, the plants are quite competitive with any weeds that may want to grow (pigweed and the occasional tall grass are the major ones at that point; Peruvian daisy, early on).

    My rows run north-south and get plenty of sun that way. I've seen arguments for both orientations, but in my case, the garden is at the side of the house and runs parallel to our north-south road.

    Below, last year, is the patch in July (surrounded by various perennials, and a little smaller than usual), taken from a bedroom window. The one row to the right was an add-on, and further away from the rest than usual). Then, next, a few weeks later, in August, I have a zinnia jungle (a few orange cosmos to the left).

    {{gwi:26027}}
    {{gwi:26028}}

    Probably one disadvantage of the close rows is the increased formation of mildew because air circulation isn't so great. It doesn't seem to hurt plants or seed-collecting, though, and happens very late in the season for me.

    JG

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG,

    Thanks for the details about your garden. I was curious that your rows might be running north-south and working fine that way, and you have confirmed that. I guess I'll stick with my east-west rows because, as you say, there are two schools of thought on this.

    Your use of tillers is very interesting. Except for a preparatory tilling with my Merry Tiller, I do all of my weeding and cultivating with hand tools. I have several garden hoes, ranging from small to large, and I select one that seems appropriate for the job at hand.

    Just out of curiosity, is that picture of your garden taken from the south looking north? That is the impression I get, because the lighting looks like afternoon sun. Obviously there is no tree shading on the left, but how about on the right? Are there trees there that would limit how much sun comes from that direction?

    It just occurred to me that I don't have any pictures of my garden as such. Just flower close-ups. I may have something on video. I'll have to take some pictures of our landscape this year. This is a very wooded area, and I have been clearing unneeded trees to get more sunlight into our garden. I still need to remove a few more trees to improve our sunlight situation, but the work I have already done has made a big improvement.

    MM

  • jackier_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MM,

    The photo from the house is looking nearly due south, and was taken early in July between 6 and 7 AM--my camera said shortly after 6 AM. I think it was actually closer to 7, and the shadows are falling to the west.

    The flowers get a lot of sun, except very late in the afternoon, when the ornamental grass and other annuals and perennials in the garden to the west shade the plants. I only have small fruit trees to the east, and no trees for many yards to the west.

    The soil here is very fertile, and just full of weed seeds that do very well if it weren't for massive tilling efforts on my part. Close to the bases of the zinnias, I do a thorough weeding by hand about three times before the zinnias get large. Usually I will mulch the areas between the rows with the weeds I pull before they make any seeds, then plough them under later. I use few chemicals in the garden; those include an occasional blast with Roundup to get rid of thistle, burdock, and poison ivy plants that appear.

    JG

  • pls8xx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JG, that field of zinnias is awesome.

    This has been a great thread, but I fear we have lost everyone that is on dial-up. There are lots of great pictures, but I added it up and there is 13 mega bytes. It would take dial-up about an hour and a half to check the thread for a new post. Maybe we should start anew?

  • maineman
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pls8xx,

    You are right. We are continuing in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 3. See you there.

    MM