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zen_man

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 29

zen_man
9 years ago

Hello everyone,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 28, has become rather long and slow to load or read, with over 100 messages, so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. As always, if you have any related pictures, you are invited to post them.

Winter is essentially here, and I have been growing some of my breeder zinnias indoors, under fluorescent lights on chrome wire shelving in our utility room in the basement.

{{gwi:2117774}} That is a current picture of one of my shelves of zinnias. I have seven shelves in service, populated with zinnias in various stages of development, ranging from half-grown seedlings and plants just beginning to get their first buds to plants in full bloom like those in the picture. I will bring an eighth shelf into service as the need arises. It is currently being used for storage of empty pots. The indoor zinnias keep me reasonably busy caring for them and pollinating them.

I am still on track to grow two generations of zinnias indoors, with some green seeds nearly mature enough to pull and place into pre-germination Ziploc bags. I hope to have a few second generation seedlings up by Christmas.

Last Winter I had a serious thrips problem in my indoor zinnias, but so far this Fall and Winter I haven't had any pest problems. However, I am remaining vigilant, and won't be surprised if pest problems do develop. Hopefully I am better prepared to deal with pests this Winter. I spend an hour or two cross-pollinating selected zinnia specimens nearly every day, and enjoy doing that.

I continue to get interesting results in my breeders. My focus is still on upgrading my Razzle Dazzle strain, but I have several other projects going as well. More later.

ZM

Comments (110)

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Merry Christmas, everyone.

    {{gwi:2117794}}

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Blessed Solstice and a Merry Christmas to you and yours!

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - You probably already addressed this earlier, but could you refresh my memory on what you said, please?
    Beta Jr has some yellow stripes, not only on the florets, but on a few guard petals. Do you think those stripes will be more prevalent on the plants coming from those seeds (as opposed to seeds from non-striped petals)? Unfortunately, I waited too long to take the pic and as the bloom aged the yellow striations seem to become less noticeable, so you can barely see anything except on the one floret closeup.

    Also, just got this link off the Growing Tomatoes forum to an interesting article about plants developing sturdier stems in response to touch.

    - Alex

    Here is a link that might be useful: Pet your plants!

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "Do you think those stripes will be more prevalent on the plants coming from those seeds (as opposed to seeds from non-striped petals)? "

    All of the seeds in a zinnia flowerhead are siblings, so they can and do differ genetically from each other. However, I don't know to what degree the genetics of the embryo might influence the phenotype of the petal that "belongs" to the embryo. There is some influence, because larger embryos require a larger seed case, and the seed case is a part of the petal. I think it would be worthwhile to save the seeds from the striped petals in a separately labeled container.

    "...an interesting article about plants developing sturdier stems in response to touch."

    Petting plants for stronger stems sounds plausible, and I think it is a good idea to have a fan blowing a breeze on young seedlings to "exercise them" for the same reason. Our Kansas winds probably contribute to thicker stems on my outdoor zinnias. My guess is that if you grew some zinnias in a space station under weightless conditions, and then brought them back to normal earth gravity, they would have weak stems that would sort of collapse. Somebody should do that. We should have zinnias growing in outer space. That would probably only cost a few million dollars. Considerably more than my zinnias in the basement.

    Incidentally, this "basement zinnia" has some interesting up-curled petals.

    {{gwi:2117795}} I also like its apple-blossom pink coloration. Zinnias seem to have endless variation in their colors. Well, my zinnias are calling. I have over three dozen second-generation seedlings up now, some with true leaves, and I will be sowing some more green seeds from some interesting specimens this afternoon.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - zinnias in space - someone should get right on that!

    3 dozen F2s - how exciting! Yes, I like that apple-blossom pink color also. I was reading on another GW thread about what colors people especially liked in their gardens - that apple-blossom would be one for me, even though for myself personally I am NOT a 'pink' person. :)

    I recently approached one of my gardening buddies to plant some of my F1s I gathered this summer. I could conceivably plant them all in the space I have, but I'm determined to put a good portion of the old garden area in buckwheat this next season to help rejuvenate it. Apparently, I'd already succeeded in piquing her interest, as she quickly whipped out her gardening catalogs to show me the zinnias she'd ordered! I'd mentioned before about certain varieties not being suitable for crossing with others, and she was trying to stick to my rather vague suggestions. I'll have to check more closely later and ask you about a couple of them. She still says she'll have room for more. :) Of course, it could make it difficult to make crosses from my garden with anything that might be growing in hers as she is a good half hour away from me, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. I'd just like to see what all the F1 crosses look like without having to wait another year. Meanwhile, I will keep my special cactus hybrids close to home.

    Gotta say thanks again for getting me into this. It's a blast!

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "Of course, it could make it difficult to make crosses from my garden with anything that might be growing in hers as she is a good half hour away from me, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it."

    If she is less than hour away, it would be feasible to take zinnia pollen from one garden and use it in the other. You could cross her zinnias onto yours and vice versa. When I first found my tubular "mutant" zinnia (E2) back in 2011, it was in my south garden and most of my breeder zinnias were in my north garden. The two gardens are over a hundred yards apart with the house, lawn, and driveway in between. So I did a lot of carrying pollen from E2 to the north garden.

    To facilitate that, I used pollen "carriers". I started using one of those little square aspirin containers that have a sliding "drawer". I graduated to using a little contact lens container (I don't use contacts, and have no idea how I came in possession of that.) I could open and close it with one hand. Using either container, I could pick a dozen or more pollen florets from E2 and carry them in my pocket to the north garden and pollinate several breeders.

    A picked zinnia floret is badly wilted in a couple of hours, but would be usable if you used it in less than a hour. A tiny moistened piece of paper towel in the container might extend the usable floret time. It's best if you pick the florets in the morning soon after they open.

    This basement zinnia reminds me of a Bachelor's Button or Cornflower (Centaurea cyanus) flower form.

    {{gwi:2117796}} It looks rather like a Bachelor's Button, but is considerably larger. It would probably be possible to develop a strain of Bachelor's Button flowered zinnias, in a variety of single colors and color combinations, if there were a demand for that sort of thing. More later.

    ZM

  • ninecrow
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Got My New Chilterns Seed Catalogue Though the Post This Morning.....
    ***YAY***

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Happy New Year everyone,

    {{gwi:2117797}}

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - nice photoshopping on the zinnia above! Or, are we witnessing a Razzle Dazzle breakthrough that will knock the petals off the zinnia industry? :)

    It's the Cat Witching Hour and, not surprisingly, I am awake. The story of our lives now, especially in the winter. I wake up with 3 thoughts in my head: (1) there is no way I will be able to get back to sleep if I don't make a trip to the bathroom, (2) the fire is dying down, and unless I get up and throw a log on now, we will be forced to rebuild it in the morning in a cold stove (which, as anyone who builds many fires can tell you, is a whole lot more work without that base of hot coals), and (3) as soon as I stick so much as a toe out of this bed, I will awaken at least one cat. Well, there's no hope for it. Might as well ring a bell; one cat = all cats = partytime!
    One happy note: it is 21 degrees outside, as opposed to the 10 or maybe lower degrees of last night. And a very Happy New Year to all.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    " Or, are we witnessing a Razzle Dazzle breakthrough that will knock the petals off the zinnia industry? :) "

    I wish. Actually, glowing zinnias are on my long-term list of goals. But I plan to become proficient in zinnia tissue culture first, and then start to study the genetic engineering techniques in earnest. There is ongoing work to produce and distribute glowing plants. However, I am a bit skeptical about the Glowing Plants Kickstarter Project. There has been giddy talk about glowing trees that would replace street lights. Bioluminescence occurs in many life forms, and genetic techniques have already succeeded in transferring bioluminescence from one life form to another. Glo Fish are genetically modified aquarium fish that fluoresce in several colors.

    However, my goal for future genetically modified zinnias would be true light production in several colors, not just fluorescence. Although, fluorescence could make flowers have much more brilliant colors. Just like the laundry detergents that promise "whiter whites" use fluorescence.

    My sleep cycles share your item 1. Propane central heat and no pets prevent items 2 and 3. I must say I enjoyed your Cat Witching Hour paragraph. Good writing.

    I am starting the New Year with 72 second-generation hybrid zinnia seedlings, and I am still planting a few more. So far the Borg have not paid a visit. Knock on wood. More later.

    ZM
    (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - since you mentioned the glowing fish some time back, I am seeing them in tanks in the big boxstores. Definitely cool looking, though in each case I believe they were using special lights to enhance the glow, and I never did like anything but plain white lights in my aquariums back when I had them. Not sure how much they'd glow under ordinary white fluorescents. And is that true about laundry soap? Never heard that.

    Anyway, I look forward to seeing lots of pics of the 72 F2s. Wow! So many surprises to come.

    Ninecrow - so what are you going to order?

    I am thoroughly exhausted, and intend to go to sleep soon. Hopefully, I won't be entertaining you with any 4 AM essays this time. :) Snowing here, BTW.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    We got a light snow last night, maybe a quarter inch or so. Its cold today, and what little snow there is, isn't melting, even though the sky is clear and sunny.

    "Not sure how much they'd glow under ordinary white fluorescents."

    They would glow, but it wouldn't be so noticeable. Fluorescent things are best viewed in the dark with a black light, which contains mostly ultraviolet light. The fluorescent substance absorbs ultraviolet light and re-emits visible light.

    "And is that true about laundry soap?"

    It's true of most laundry detergents. That "whiter than white" effect is delivered by a blue-white fluorescent agent. Sunlight contains quite a lot of ultraviolet light, and the white garment that picks up a blue-white fluorescent agent in the laundry glows extra white in the sunlight. The white fiber reflects the normal white light from the sunlight, and extra blue-white light is added to it by the fluorescent dye from the detergent. If you have the opportunity to view your laundry in a dark room under a black light, you can see the effect very dramatically.

    We cannot see in the ultraviolet spectrum, but some insects can and some flowers take advantage of that by reflecting ultraviolet light from areas of their petals. They may also employ fluorescent components to achieve that.

    It just occurred to me that I probably should get a black light to inspect my zinnias with, to see if they have some ultraviolet fluorescence that I am unaware of. That just went onto my "to do" list.

    " I look forward to seeing lots of pics of the 72 F2s. "

    That number of second generation seedlings is now over a hundred, and growing daily. I ordered another chrome wire shelf unit to add to my indoor basement growing capacity. It should arrive later this week. In the meantime, I am having to cull some of my indoor zinnias, to stay within the confines of my existing 5 chrome wire shelving units.

    I should cull my zinnias even if I have space for them, because some of them aren't suitable breeders. Single zinnias are pretty much an automatic cull, but this is a "wonky" single specimen that I will probably keep.

    {{gwi:2117798}} Being single, it lets you appreciate its "exotic" petals in more detail. l will probably develop a strain of single exotics, although that one might look better if its pollen florets were scabious florets instead. More later.

    ZM

    This post was edited by zenman on Sun, Jan 4, 15 at 16:57

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - I'll take your measly 1/4" snow and raise you 6"+, and you can add 1 degree temps on top of that! And it's supposed to stay in the single or minus temps this whole week. Winter is through playing nice, I guess. Well, I'm grateful for the mild days we had before this; more than we had last year at this time.

    I see that F2 above has the tubular petals that you've been working on. Yeah, it probably would look better with a scabious cone - sort of plain at the moment. But you're teaching me to look beyond the immediate, and imagine the possibilities, so I will reserve judgement. "Wonky" - is that a real word? Sounds like something I would make up.

    And now you've taught me a whole new thing about laundry detergent that I never knew. Huh. Though, actually, I did know about insects seeing other spectrums of light. Hey, that might be fun to take a black light on a long extension cord into the garden at night, just to see how things looked. Would it draw moths? And on that note, I ordered myself a couple of cool morning glory solar lights on 10 ft cords to line my Sunflower Paths I'm going to build this next season. I tested them to see how well they glowed, and they are radical!!!color = blue> I am psyched about it.

    I would have difficulty culling plants already flowering for me under lights. I think that's why I am still keeping Alpha and Beta going, even though I originally was going to compost them after the first flowering. Now they are both getting ready to open their 3rd blooms, and, as I mentioned to Mr Guy, I may just let them stay there till spring, though prune them down for manageability. Sigh. I am too soft-hearted.

    - Alex

  • ninecrow
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi All.....

    I've Just Planted Two Zinnia Seeds..... Can't Wait for Them to Come up, How Long Do They Take?

    Zenman Please Will You Post Some More Zinnias an Snow?
    Thanks

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi NC,

    "I've Just Planted Two Zinnia Seeds..... Can't Wait for Them to Come up, How Long Do They Take? "

    It can take as long as 4 weeks if the soil is cool. If the soil is really warm, two to four days. The Benary's site (they are a respected German seedsman, producer of Benary's Giants and Zinnita F1 hybrids) recommend temperatures in the 68 F to 72 F range, which gives you a little slower germination time, but a little higher germination percentage.

    By planting zinnia embryos, I have had zinnias up in one to two days. But following Benary's advice, it is probably better not to provide bottom heat, and just let them germinate at room temperature, which may take a bit longer, but give a little better germination percentage.

    I think most commercial seeds are tested to have about 80% germination. In a limited situation like yours, I would probably plant several commercial seeds per pot and then thin them to the best looking seedling after they came up. When you plant just one seed, you are taking a chance that it may be one of the 20% that don't germinate. And if you have several seedlings, you can have the advantage of taking the "pick of the litter," by snipping out all but the best looking seedling. I wouldn't do that with choice breeder zinnia seeds, but with commercial seeds I don't mind planting too many and thinning them.

    Another thing you could do with commercial seeds and limited growing space would be to pour your seeds out on a sheet of white paper and pick the best looking seeds to plant. There is some correlation between seed size and flower size, so picking the biggest seeds to plant could pay off with bigger flowers and a stronger plant.

    "Please Will You Post Some More Zinnias an Snow? "

    OK, but I will have to wait for some real snow. Our last snow was little more than a dusting, and it didn't even cover the grass. I have a chrome wire shelving unit here in my study beside my computer where I am typing now, and there is a shelf on it, level with the bottom of window, with some second generation zinnia seedlings growing on it. The window faces south, so the seedlings get some sunlight, as well as light from the fluorescent lights hanging over the shelf. Next real snow, I will snap a picture.

    If you have questions about any of this, don't hesitate to ask. Let us know when your zinnias emerge. And pictures are always welcome.

    ZM

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    " "Wonky" - is that a real word? "

    It's a real word.

    "Hey, that might be fun to take a black light on a long extension cord into the garden at night, just to see how things looked."

    They now make inexpensive Black Light LED flashlights that use three standard alkaline AA batteries (the rechargeable AA batteries have slightly less voltage, and wouldn't work, so won't fit, as a safety factor.) I plan to use one of those black light flashlights to check out my indoor zinnias, as well as my outdoor zinnias this Summer.

    "Would it draw moths?"

    Most likely. My bug zapper uses fluorescent bulbs that emit both white light and ultraviolet light, so they noticeably light up my white shirts that have been laundered in detergent. I think my bug zapper is very beneficial in the garden, to kill moths that would lay eggs to produce cutworms, tomato hornworms and tomato fruit worms. I also put a pan of water underneath it to drown June Bugs or May Beetles, which would lay eggs to produce grub worms.

    " I ordered myself a couple of cool morning glory solar lights on 10 ft cords to line my Sunflower Paths I'm going to build this next season."

    I can't wait until next Summer when you can show us pictures of your Sunflower Paths. Sounds like a very cool idea.

    "I would have difficulty culling plants already flowering for me under lights."

    I have difficulty culling indoor blooming zinnias, too. But in my case, it needs to be done, so I do it. More later.

    ZM
    (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - well, I can't go playin' round ordering frivolous things like LED blacklights, I got serious business to attend to - like getting me one of those Donegan DA-7 OptiVISOR Headband Magnifier, 2.75X Magnification Glass Lens Plate, 6" Focal Length. Can hardly wait! There may be better ones, but this model looked good enough. It will definitely make hybridizing easier next season.

    Still in the single digits here, but the snow stopped.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    I agree with you that a headband magnifier is more relevant than a blacklight flashlight. I use my headband magnifier daily.

    On a different subject, do you notice any green stuff growing on the top of the soil or medium in your pots that you are growing Alpha and Beta in? Some of my 3-inch square pots get a green stuff growing in them, and it is always harmful to the zinnia in the pot. I don't know whether the harm is simply competition for nutrients and/or water, or if the green stuff emits something to harm the competition.

    As I have mentioned in the past, I use Physan 20 in a lot of my plant water and Physan 20 is billed as a disinfectant, sanitizer, deodorizer, fungicide, algaecide and virucide. That's pretty inclusive, and you would think that the algaecide part would apply to the green stuff.

    Physan 20 is described as biodegradable, which is a good thing, because that means it won't destroy the soil microbes in your garden soil if you transplant a plant that has Physan 20 in its rootball into the garden. But I think that implies that the Physan starts losing its strength essentially immediately after you mix it with water to use it. I don't know the exact mechanism by which it loses its strength, or how fast the decline in its effectiveness goes. But for the first few days, at least, the Physan 20 keeps my seedling pot clean of pretty much everything. But as the decline progresses, I see the appearance of a single colony of green stuff, which is probably a colony of algae. This picture shows the onset of an apparent algae colony in one of my pots.

    {{gwi:2117799}} As a variation on that, sometimes I see a distinct cup-shaped growth, that I suspect is a single "plantlet" of a lichen, which is a symbiotic combination of a fungus and an algae. Here are a couple of those.

    {{gwi:2117800}} I am wondering if you have seen any of the green growths, algae or lichen, in any of your pots. And, if so, do you do anything about it? Or does it appear to be harmful to the plant in the pot? I use Physan 20 a lot, and I need to research how fast it loses its strength. I suspect that it starts to decline in effectiveness immediately upon being dissolved in water, until it reaches a threshold at which things like algae can live.

    I need to research exactly what is happening and how fast, so I can come up with some rule of thumb about how soon a re-application needs to be made. My guess is that oxygen in the air or dissolved in the water reacts with the Physan to form an inactive byproduct. But that is just a guess. I'll do some research on the subject of Physan 20 degradation. In the meantime, I wonder if "green stuff" has been a problem for you. More later.

    ZM

  • woodnative
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think that "lichen" is actually a liverwort. ZM when you do a first cross of a scabious type and another typical zinnia is the scabious type flower dominant or recessive or more complex than that.

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - haven't a clue about the Physan, as I don't use it or much of anything else except the Miracle Gro at this point. And "no" to the other question - not seeing any algae growing, possibly because it's rather cold up where I've got the plant lights. Later when I've got more lights going and the weather is not so frigid, I will see some algae on soil surfaces. The only time it seems to matter is when the seeds are just getting going - and only the tiny stuff like petunias, etc. Don't know if, in that case, it's somehow trapping moisture that leads to damp-off, or what the deal is. This season I will take a moment to examine it closely with my new Optivisor. I am so glad you gave me that idea about the visor - it's going to be invaluable.

    And now, for the first time, a rare pic of the illusive black zinnia. Not a good pic, I know, but she moved.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi woodnative,

    "...when you do a first cross of a scabious type and another typical zinnia is the scabious type flower dominant or recessive or more complex than that."

    The scabious florets seem to be dominant over the usual fuzzy yellow starfish florets. Other components of the flower form can be influenced greatly by the non-scabious partner. There are many ways the flower form can vary and still have scabious florets. The guard petals can be lengthened considerably to create a flower form that is similar to echinaceas.

    {{gwi:4735}} The guard petals can become extremely large compared to the central scabious center, giving the appearance of a water lily.

    {{gwi:4742}} The more moderate guard petal lengths and proportions can give a variety of appearances in the Echinacea flowered range. The guard petals can curl upwards.

    {{gwi:4741}} Or they can angle downwards.

    {{gwi:4737}} And the guard petals can be so short as to be not visible, or they can be absent altogether, to give a bloom that is essentially all scabious florets.

    {{gwi:4743}} In extreme cases that can produce a bloom that is almost a spherical ball.
    {{gwi:4744}}
    There seems to be no end to the number of different looks you can get from crosses with the scabious zinnias and other zinnias. And don't forget the F2 and beyond generations. You can cross different scabious hybrids with each other. You can get some complex results doing that. And you can backcross your hybrids to original scabious zinnias as well.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The downward angled echinacea type has my vote ! :)

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    A black zinnia in the shape of a cat? How did you manage that? But seriously, we do need some black zinnias, just to have companions for a white zinnia like this current indoor specimen.

    {{gwi:2117801}} It has fairly wide petals with a lot of informal arrangement, including a fair amount of "waviness". I get a slight hint of an iris look, which makes me think that extra wide petals, and fewer of them, could yield zinnias that looked very iris-like.

    I have been on the lookout for extra dark purple or cerise zinnias, and I will continue to look for that, and breed for darker zinnias. There was once a little Cupid zinnia named "Black Ruby", and it had a very dark purple color that looked very near to black in yellowish incandescent light. I think that a very dark purple like that could look near-to-black if it were crossed with a dark yellow zinnia. I now have an appetite for a black zinnia. More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That is an outstanding white! I love the form of it.

  • ninecrow
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I Have a Seedling!!!!!
    ***YAY***

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ninecrow - Congratulations on the new arrival! After all these years, I still find the sprouting of those little green living things from some dry dead looking bit of matter, a matter of awe and joy.

    My present two little plants are looking a little like they'd appreciate it if I'd turn up the heat upstairs. Or maybe they just needed a drink. :)

    Temps will fall to minus 7 on Monday, they say, but the good news is that they're predicting a warm up to just above freezing in another week. It will be very welcome.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi NC,

    "I Have a Seedling!!!!! ***YAY***"

    Congratulations. Your zinnia seedling is probably growing at a more northerly latitude than any of ours. I believe that London is farther north than our Niagara Falls. But warm ocean currents give England a surprisingly mild climate for such a far north place. How much sunshine do you get this time of year?

    It was cold and overcast here today. Every now and then one of my zinnia seedlings will die for no apparent reason. I am not sure I know the reason why, so it is a bit of a mystery. I theorize that strange genetic combinations are the cause, but that is sort of guesswork. This is one of my zinnias with a strange flower form.

    {{gwi:2117785}} The flower is just plain ugly by most standards. In my attempts to cross it with other zinnias, I failed to find either pollen or stigmas inside its "petals", so apparently this zinnia will be unable to have progeny. In which case, I guess I should be glad that it isn't really nice looking. Keep us posted about your zinnia seedling. I really wonder what its flower will look like.

    ZM

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "After all these years, I still find the sprouting of those little green living things from some dry dead looking bit of matter, a matter of awe and joy. "

    I feel the same way. I think it is amazing how little strands of DNA can control the many forms of life, and I wonder about the codes that are contained in zinnia DNA. I also wonder about prehistoric zinnias, and their DNA codes. I read somewhere that the DNA contains codes for genes and also many code fragments of ancient genes that are no longer active.

    I wonder if it is sometimes possible for those code fragments to come together to re-create lost prehistoric genes. Only a very few hundred years ago zinnias were just an unimpressive little violet wildflower. I think it is remarkable that so much zinnia diversity has been created in such a relatively small time span. I wonder if that little Zinnia violacea wildflower had some surprising prehistoric ancestors. I remain impressed that zinnias are full of surprises.

    " My present two little plants are looking a little like they'd appreciate it if I'd turn up the heat upstairs. Or maybe they just needed a drink. :) "

    I suspect your two zinnia plants look better than some of mine. How big are the pots that yours are currently in? One of my tubular zinnias died recently, for no apparent reason. I guess I will perform an "autopsy" on it to see if I can find any cause. I am concerned that my zinnias may not be receiving enough light. I may try misting some of them with a weak sugar solution to see if they respond to that. More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - condolences on your tubular zinnia loss. Maybe some of the hybrids do have a built-in expiration date, after all. As you don't have the space to keep all your crosses going indefinitely, there's no way of testing others for this; though it would be interesting to see the results.

    As it turns out, mine just needed a drink of water. And it is possible that it's just a tad cold upstairs for them. Actually, they wouldn't even have the benefit of that heat right now, except that we have to run the propane heater up there anyway to protect the plumbing (which some bright person once upon a distant time decided to locate on the west side of the house; the side that gets the prevailing wind.)

    While I was up there, I made the decision to cut both the primary seed heads. I've been gathering green seeds now for quite a while, and have already plucked all the guard petals by this time. I was remembering asking you back in the summer if you ever harvested entire seed heads and let them finish drying inside away from rains, birds and other hazards. You said you didn't do that, I think, but what the hey - thought I'd give it a try, since I'd already saved a number of seeds from both blossoms. Plus they have their second blossoms still going, and thirds on the way.

    After I cut them, I paused to examine them more closely with my new Optivisor (- loving it!), and saw that there were many of the smaller non-petal seeds which seemed pretty obviously plumped-up. I took one of Beta's and cut its seed casing off, and sure enough, there was a lovely, healthy-looking embryo.

    Well, what could I do? I couldn't throw that perfect little life out, so...I planted it, of course! Or rather, I am pre-germinating it. The F2 generation has begun! Oh, and as info for the curious mind: Alpha and Beta were both started on August 15. Alpha bloomed on Oct 23 and Beta bloomed on November 6. This is Beta's seed.

    - Alex

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Meant to add that Alpha and Beta are in 6" clay pots.

  • Squishy666
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello!

    Well it seems that just two others, Alex and ZM, are interested in Zinnias on this site
    I almost feel like I'm intruding
    But I'm going to start growing Zinnias soon so I thought I'd make some friends and get some advice :)

    I'm a beginner gardener and new to zinnias but I want to breed them because it takes so little time

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey, Squishy!
    Since I'm apparently reading this first, I'll go ahead and respond. This is actually Zenman's (ZM) thread that he started ages back before I appeared on the zinnia scene, and he'll be around soon to do the official welcomes.

    No, it's not just the two of us, as you will see Ninecrow in the UK is up there and Woodnative. Plus there are a bunch of others who will probably return once spring gets here. Can't speak for anyone else but me, but it's mega-cold where I'm at - minus 6 degrees F this morning. I've only got a few plants going inside under lights, and normally wouldn't have that, since I don't generally get my seeds going until March. But I got hooked on the zinnia breeding thing, and wanted to continue the dialog without a big gap of time in between.

    It will be that much more interesting with some new bodies talking, so stick around, New Zealand. BTW - what's your weather like there?

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Squishy,

    I see Alex has already welcomed you to this message thread. You are "officially" welcomed to Garden Web, and to this zinnias message thread. Like Alex, I am also curious about your weather in New Zealand, and pretty much everything else as well. New Zealand seems like an exotic place to us Midwestern American types, especially since you are having Summer while we are having Winter. It's cold here in Kansas, too, but not nearly as cold as Alex is having it. Sometimes I feel like she is living in the Arctic, and wouldn't be at all surprised if her weather is sometimes colder than places in Alaska.

    Alex is right that I started this thread "ages back". This is a link to the original message thread, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias. Back then I was living in Maine, which has cold weather comparable to Alex's weather, and I went by the name MaineMan. Since then we moved to east central Kansas, where the Winters are a bit milder and the Summers considerably hotter.

    After the move to Kansas, I considered changing my username to "KanMan", but I rejected that because it sounded a little bit like I must spend a lot of time in the restroom. I picked ZenMan, because my philosophy is somewhat Zen-like. And it sounds like "zinnia" without being so specialized.

    But enough about me. Lets hear some more about you and New Zealand. And your zinnia plans.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And here we are, less than 24 hours later, and we have germination! Way to go, little Beta Jr.

  • Squishy666
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the welcomes guys :)

    New Zealand is currently having a very hot summer, the hottest I ever remember
    I'm melting but my garden's enjoying it, especially the sunflowers

    At the moment the weather here is super dry and sunny, but during the other seasons we get frequent rain, and in winter a little frost but nothing too severe. It's so mild here I might even be able to grow winter zinnias outside!

    Whiriligs sound really cool
    I'd certainly like to get some for interesting genetics
    I don't think any are sold in new zealand and I'm not sure what customs would say, but I have some african violet seeds ordered from overseas and if they get through I'll try for zinnias :)

    As for my zinnia plans I thought I'd start off with some useful traits
    I'm gonna get as many seeds out of my zinnias as I can, plant a bunch and then select for speed of germination and growth, healthy plants, small size (so there's room in my garden - it's small) and pollen and seed production
    I can start selecting for flower traits later when I have a bigger zinnia collection :)

    It's very nice to be welcomed and to meet you both!

    I'm curious - what traits do you select for?

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    Wow! That's fast germination. Beta Jr may be special. What is that pink environment that germination occurred in? All of my paper towels are white. Or is that just a lighting effect? Incidentally, good close-up photography.

    ZM

  • mister_guy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Don't be scared, everyone is nice in this thread! There's more people active than you'd expect, especially if you go back a couple of thread part numbers. We just got a little chatty and technical amongst ourselves in a few of the recent numbers, but that's just because it was getting cold everywhere and only the really nerdiest of us keep our annuals going under lights!

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Squishy,

    "I don't think any [Whirligigs] are sold in new zealand and I'm not sure what customs would say, but I have some african violet seeds ordered from overseas and if they get through I'll try for zinnias :) "

    Getting seeds from outside into New Zealand is going to be a challenge. Swallowtail Garden Seeds lists New Zealand as one of the countries they can't ship to. Ironically, they can ship to Australia. Just out of curiosity, do you know whether people in Australia can ship seeds to you in New Zealand?

    " ...plant a bunch and then select for speed of germination and growth, healthy plants, small size (so there's room in my garden - it's small) and pollen and seed production "

    There are several zinnia varieties that have compact plants, including Dreamland and Magellans. The Thumbelinas have very small plants, and start to bloom when they are only 3 inches tall and eventually become a 6-inch tall bush, with maybe an 8-inch spread. The Zinnitas are an F1 hybrid with a plant height of about 7 inches. Those two varieties could be the basis for some very compact zinnia plants.

    "I'm curious - what traits do you select for? "

    I select for novel flower forms, interesting color combinations, and "nice" plant habits. This coming Spring I am going to be selecting for larger blooms, with a goal of getting 8-inch or larger blooms. And I will be looking for extra dark colors as a step toward getting "black" zinnias as a new color.

    One of my novel flower form objectives is to have each "petal" be a flowerlet unto itself. Several recent specimens have represented significant progress in that direction.

    {{gwi:2117802}} And I have a Razzle Dazzle flower form (pictured elsewhere) whose size and color range I hope to increase significantly.

    I will be on the lookout for seed sources for you in New Zealand. Apparently New Zealand has even tougher customs regulations than Australia. More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - not pink, just me not setting the white balance properly on the camera, and failing to make enough adjustment in editing.

    Yeah, I was surprised at the speed of germination. Beta took longer to sprout than Alpha, but otherwise seems the superior plant in vigor and form; hopefully that has been passed on to its progeny.

    Mister Guy - how's it going? How is your indoor garden doing?

    - Alex

  • Squishy666
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM: I'm not sure if I can get seeds from Australia
    I think it's easiest to just buy from New Zealand

    EXCITEMENT: My zinnia seeds have arrived!!! :D
    Now how do I germinate them?
    My dad said I should put them on wet paper towels

    Also, do the elegans and angustifolia varieties have the same number of chromosomes?

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Squishy,

    "My zinnia seeds have arrived!!! :D Now how do I germinate them? My dad said I should put them on wet paper towels "

    The paper towel method, which Alex just demonstrated above, is for pregermination. That can make sense for growing zinnias indoors or for germinating old seed that have a low germination expectancy. Your seeds are fresh, presumably, and should germinate about 80%, so there is no need for pre-germination.

    You probably intend to grow your zinnias outside in the ground, so you will plant them in the ground where you want them to grow. There are probably instructions for doing that on the back of the seed packets you have received. In case there isn't, this is what it says on the back of one of my packets of Burpee's zinnias:

    SOW in average soil in full sun after danger of frost. Sow seeds about 12" apart and cover with 1/4" of fine soil. Firm lightly and keep evenly moist. Seedlings emerge in 7-10 days. Thin to stand 18-24" apart when seedlings are 1-2" tall.

    Since it is hot in New Zealand, your seedlings may appear sooner than that, perhaps in 2 or 3 days. And the heat makes it all the more important to keep your seedbeds moist until the seedlings emerge, and afterwards as well. Sprinkle your seedbeds daily, with a gentle sprinkler of some sort, so the water doesn't disturb the soil the seeds are in.

    "Also, do the elegans and angustifolia varieties have the same number of chromosomes? "

    They do not. Elegans has 24 chromosomes and Angustifolia has 22 chromosomes. A cross between the two can yield interspecies hybrids with 23 chromosomes, if the cross is successful. They could be nice plants, but with an odd number of chromosomes, they would be incapable of successful meiosis, and hence couldn't produce viable pollen grains or daughter cells, and that would prevent fertile seed production.

    The only way you could get seeds and progeny from such a cross would be to double their number of chromosomes from 23 to 46 (an even number) which would allow viable seed formation. Doubling the chromosomes would be done with Colchicine or a similar chemical, which would require hazardous substance handling (best left to professionals). That process is how the Zinnia marylandica cultivars were created, including the Profusions, Pinwheels, and Zaharas.

    I am curious, what varieties of zinnias did you receive? And from whom?

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Squishy - and don't forget to take pictures - we love pictures! If you have anything that can produce a digital image that you can save to your computer, we can walk you through how to post it here.

    So what did you buy - I'm curious, too.

    - Alex

  • Squishy666
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM: You seem to be a zinnia expert
    I'm glad to be able to consult you :P

    When the seedlings come up how will I tell the difference between them and any weeds that grow?
    My garden likes to produce weeds at a colossal rate
    Also how much space will the full grown zinnia plant need? I have a small garden
    If I run out of space, is it possible to grow zinnias in pots?

    Alex: I have an iPhone! I'll take a photo of my garden pre-zinnias
    How do I stick it on here?
    I know how to put it on photobucket
    Is there some kinda html code I use to post it?

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Squishy - if you know how to put it on Photobucket or some other photo host site, you simply call up each pic at your photosite, click on the HTML link on the right hand side of the page, and that will copy it. Then paste that link into the message box. It will look like a long string of code when you paste it, but after you hit the "Preview Message" box, it will show you the image in your post. If it doesn't, then there was something wrong, and you'll need to try again. The beauty of going through Photobucket, is that you can paste as many codes for pics as you like, but if you weren't using them or another site like them, you could still post a single pic at a time using GW's "Image file to upload - Browse" button above your message box, which lets you get the pic directly from your computer. But if you wanted to post a 2nd pic, you'd have to post a second message - GW's system doesn't do more than one at a time.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Squishy,

    "When the seedlings come up how will I tell the difference between them and any weeds that grow?"

    This is a picture of a couple of zinnia seedlings just after they have emerged. If you look closely, you can see a few very tiny weed seedlings, as well.

    {{gwi:2117803}}
    This next picture shows a row of young zinnias that have gotten their first pair of true leaves. Some tiny weed seedlings are also just visible. Since I cull my zinnias heavily (I am trying to improve them), I plant them much closer together than is recommended, because I know I am going to remove a lot of zinnia plants at first bloom.

    {{gwi:2117804}}
    The picture below shows a row of zinnia seedlings with some weeds present. Can you pick out the zinnias?

    {{gwi:2117805}}
    It can be a little tricky telling a zinnia seedling from a weed. The zinnias have two cotyledons (seed leaves), but so does about half of the plant kingdom. That is why it is a good idea to plant your zinnia seeds in a straight line. That way the zinnia seedlings will be on a straight line among the weeds, which will be somewhat randomly spaced. That will help you distinguish which are the zinnias and which are the weeds.

    "Also how much space will the full grown zinnia plant need? I have a small garden. "

    That depends entirely on the variety of zinnia. Thumbelinas and Zinnitas only grow about 6 or 7 inches tall, so each plant could need a comparable amount of space. Benary's Giants grow 4 feet tall and would need 2 to 4 feet of space, depending on whether you wanted to crowd them or not. Some cactus flowered zinnias can grow to 6 feet tall if they are a bit crowded. so you might want to give them 3 feet or more of space. Zinnias will tolerate quite a bit of crowding, but they then get into a height race with each other, competing and reaching for sunshine.

    "If I run out of space, is it possible to grow zinnias in pots? "

    Yes, with adequate pot size and a good potting mix. A single Thumbelina plant or Zinnita plant might do well in a 5-inch or a 6-inch pot. Large zinnia varieties would need a much larger pot per plant. Zinnias resent becoming root bound, and they develop large root systems in open ground that are as big or bigger than their mature above-ground bushes. Their pot volume should be comparable to their bush volume.

    "My garden likes to produce weeds at a colossal rate "

    So does mine. Declare war on your weeds with a good sharp hoe and a companion hand hoe. And pull weeds that are too close to your good plants. If they are really close, you can snip them at ground level with scissors or a hand pruner to avoid upsetting the root system of the crowded zinnia.

    ZM

  • Squishy666
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Alex
    I'll try posting a photo soon!

    Thanks for all the advice ZM, I'm gonna get planting today :D

  • Squishy666
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Okay for my first go at zinnias I'm just gonna plant a couple of varieties in free patches of garden that are probably too small, but I'll try pruning them back at the edges when they get big to encourage them to grow tall rather than wide
    This is just a trial run to see if I can develop some zinnia skills :P
    After this I'll get some biggish pots since I probably don't have space in my garden for too many zinnia plants

  • Squishy666
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sacred ring of stones, in the center of which are six baby zinnia seeds awaiting germination
    Whichever one germinates and gets growin first gets to live! Mwuahahahahaha!
    #brutalselectionconditions

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - oh, please - you look like you're planting on a moonscape - you probably just added a few weed seeds, just to make us think you actually have to deal with grass and weeds!

    I don't know what it's like in New Zealand, Squishy, except what I see in the hobbit movies, but let me tell you, the Zenman's garden looks like weeds are afraid to grow there. His garden is so clean, if I lived a little closer, I'd sneak over in the dead of night and throw a few weed seeds in just so he'd actually have to work that hoe.

    BTW - Squishy, you never told us what seeds you bought. As ZM said, the space needed does depend on the variety you've planted. And, as we've demonstrated in past posts, you can grow zinnias in pots, so there's no stopping you.

    Meanwhile, this is what it looks like at my place...

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everyone,

    Since this message thread has become so long, we are continuing this over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 30 for a fresh start.

    Hope to see you all over there.

    ZM