Hello everyone,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 28, has become rather long and slow to load or read, with over 100 messages, so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. As always, if you have any related pictures, you are invited to post them.

Winter is essentially here, and I have been growing some of my breeder zinnias indoors, under fluorescent lights on chrome wire shelving in our utility room in the basement.

That is a current picture of one of my shelves of zinnias. I have seven shelves in service, populated with zinnias in various stages of development, ranging from half-grown seedlings and plants just beginning to get their first buds to plants in full bloom like those in the picture. I will bring an eighth shelf into service as the need arises. It is currently being used for storage of empty pots. The indoor zinnias keep me reasonably busy caring for them and pollinating them.

I am still on track to grow two generations of zinnias indoors, with some green seeds nearly mature enough to pull and place into pre-germination Ziploc bags. I hope to have a few second generation seedlings up by Christmas.

Last Winter I had a serious thrips problem in my indoor zinnias, but so far this Fall and Winter I haven't had any pest problems. However, I am remaining vigilant, and won't be surprised if pest problems do develop. Hopefully I am better prepared to deal with pests this Winter. I spend an hour or two cross-pollinating selected zinnia specimens nearly every day, and enjoy doing that.

I continue to get interesting results in my breeders. My focus is still on upgrading my Razzle Dazzle strain, but I have several other projects going as well. More later.

ZM

Hello again, Queen-Gardener,

"I just hope the zinnia flowers resemble the catalogue pictures! And the offspring won't be as poofy and scabiosa-like, right? "

I expect the zinnias from the seeds will resemble the catalog pictures rather well. And since the Zinderellas, Mazurkia, and Macarenia aren't F1 hybrids, their offspring should resemble them reasonably closely, except for those that you or the bees cross-pollinate with something else in your patch (or your neighbors's).

"...and I'm going to let nature take its course to pollinate and cross the flowers."

Nature (the bees) will do a reasonable job of pollinating your zinnias, but not a lot of cross pollinating. JackieR has gotten a lot of "nature-provided" cross pollination, but that has been over a course of several years. If you want two of your zinnias to be cross-pollinated, I recommend that you "be the bee" and do it yourself. It only takes a few minutes to cross pollinate a couple of zinnias. Nature just might take several years to do it. And bees are really bad about not keeping good records of their crosses. It's fine to let the bees do most of the pollination. But you can make a big difference by spending a few minutes dabbing some choice pollen on some zinnia stigmas.

"Any others I should know about?! :-)"

The Burpeeana Giants are one of the better cactus flowered strains. If you like to bring zinnias blooms into the house as bouquets in vases, the Benary's Giants are bred as cut flowers, and have long, strong stems. The Oklahoma strain is also good for cut flowers.

If you have a favorite color or colors, you might want to shop for your favorite color in separate color zinnia strains.

When you are reading a description of a zinnia variety, pay attention to the listed plant height. Zinnia plants range from 6 inches high to 6 feet high.

Shop several different online seed companies to see what is available. Go to Hazzards Seed Company and type "zinnia" in their search box to explore their extensive offering of zinnia seeds. GeoSeed is another company that caters to growers and, for that reason, has an extensive selection, but their website is not as easy to negotiate because they don't have pictures.

There are many interesting online seed companies. Stokes, Parks, Burpee, Johnny's, Renee's, SwallowTail, Harris, Thompson & Morgan, Territorial, and many more. By shopping a lot you can get ideas of what might appeal to you. And the seed racks in stores can be interesting, although they are more seasonal.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

They will have to Go on the Top of My Fish Tank to Sprout

ZM - uh...fascinating info on bananas. I must confess I had never considered the viability or absence thereof of the seeds in the bananas you get in the store. I am amazed at my lack of curiosity. I mean, I like bananas as well as the next Joe - or Josephine.

No worries about my photoshop program; it does do all those things that you mention. The old PS3 system couldn't deal with the NEF files, but, as stated, the PS12 is far in advance of the old. And don't be so eager to spend my money in upgrading to PS13, thank you very much! I saw at the time I bought the present system, that PS13 was in the works, but I got a cut-rate deal buying PS12 then as a result. And when it's something primarily for my enjoyment, I try to be frugal. :)

Yes, I am drying Alpha and Beta's green seeds for spring planting. Some I will no doubt start indoors to get an early start. I'm sort of curious - do your indoor zinnias just keep going all through the winter, putting on new blooms, or do they start to get "tired" and fade out slowly after awhile? I haven't had the experience of growing annuals through the winter, so I'm not sure what to expect with these two. Some years have you planted outside some of your indoor breeders?

Referring back to an earlier question: the whites I was thinking of were scabious. There was a cactus white, and it's true that it seemed to have longer staying power, though not nearly as long as some of the others, especially the darker colors.

Also, sent you an e-mail with the URL, but am not sure if it didn't just get bounced back at me.

Wouldn't mind a closeup of the yellow and orange blooms at the far right in your pic above, if you get around to it. :)

Later, Alex

Hi NC,

"Do I Need to Do Anything to My Seeds before I Plant?"

No, nothing special. You don't need to presoak commercial zinnia seeds. You might plant a few extras in each pot as insurance against some not germinating. Then, when they come up, keep the nicest looking seedling and snip out the others.

ZM

Hi Alex,

"I'm sort of curious - do your indoor zinnias just keep going all through the winter, putting on new blooms, or do they start to get "tired" and fade out slowly after awhile?"

That's a very good question. I am saying it is a good question, because I don't know the answer. I have never tried to grow a zinnia plant to an advanced stage indoors for a couple of reasons.

First, I am always shelf-space-limited and a mature zinnia plant takes up a lot of space. I might be able to crowd two big zinnia plants into one of my 11" x 21" PermaNest trays, but I can crowd eight 5-inch square pot plants into a tray. As you can see in the picture, I get only 4 trays per 2' x 4' shelf.

Second, I am always time limited. I can get two generations indoors only by replacing the first generation with the second generation. If I grew the first generation for as long as their plants continued to develop, the entire indoor season would be taken up by just one generation.

All that said, you ask an interesting question. How long could you keep a zinnia growing under artificial conditions, with no cold weather, declining day length, diseases, pests, and killing frost involved? That could be a very interesting experiment. I hope some University Plant Sciences department does it, and publishes the results.

"Some years have you planted outside some of your indoor breeders? "

No I haven't, but that is an idea. If the Borg don't invade this Winter, I might try that with a plant or two next Spring. However, most of my shelf space will be used again for starting indoor seedlings early for transplanting outside.

"Wouldn't mind a closeup of the yellow and orange blooms at the far right in your pic above, if you get around to it. :) "

Got around to it. No problem. My camera spends a fair amount of time in the basement, in case I do want to snap a pic of something.

It must have had a large yellow zinnia as a pollen parent, and its F2 progeny might be interesting.

"Also, sent you an e-mail with the URL, but am not sure if it didn't just get bounced back at me."

I got the email. The Norton Safe Web feature gave your website a clean bill of health. The Norton rating is a result of Symantec's automated analysis system. I replied to your email with a link to Norton's report. The report page has a link for the owner of the site, which I did not click, because I am not the owner of the site. (grin)

More later.

ZM

LOL LOL LOL
My husband and I are watching Voyager now, we watch at least one episode of Star Trek together every night. I love Seven! We're at the part where she just "adopted" 4 Borg children.

On to zinnias . . .
I probably will be out there with a little paintbrush, despite my saying I'd let nature do the work! Especially after what you said - I don't want to be waiting around for years on a simple cross.

I love to get and look at seed catalogues, it looks like I'll have to subscribe to some more and do more internet catalogue browsing. I spend so much time on the internet already, lol! Mostly on this site . . . .

The only reason I said something about hoping the flowers turn out to look like the catalogue/packet picture is because I've heard of some of the scabious types being single, and I read in blogs about two peoples' accounts of how their Queen Red Lime zinnias didn't look like they were supposed to, and the extreme summer weather conditions were supposedly to blame for the one person's results, no idea on the other person. I have grown the cactus type and I didn't think it looked anything like the nice catalogue picture. But I was wondering if the cactus type were involved with your ruffled flowers?
Also, I didn't know some companies were selling the single varieties of Whirligig versus the double - guess I won't be getting the Park's Whirligig, darn, it was only $1.99. I too prefer the more layered flowers - that's what makes a zinnia a zinnia, IMO. But as I say this, I do want to say that I love your tubular flowers and I can recognize that as a zinnia without having to ask what it is. But when I searched for Cupcake Zinnia, do you know what I got? Tons of pics of frosting zinnias on cupcakes and cookies! Do you know what they looked like? Full, full, full of layers of petals!!! So I'd rather have the double Whirligig. And I stay away from the shorter varieties - I like my zinnias tall and up in my face. I traded for some zinnias that got really tall - about 6' - in this lady's garden, as I was hoping to add its distinctiveness to my own. Uh, I mean . . .

:-)

Hi Queen-Gardener,

"The only reason I said something about hoping the flowers turn out to look like the catalogue/packet picture is because I've heard of some of the scabious types being single, and I read in blogs about two peoples' accounts of how their Queen Red Lime zinnias didn't look like they were supposed to..."

You are right to be concerned about the scabious zinnias. When I first started this zinnia breeding hobby a few years ago, I was planting Park's Pastel Scabious Mix and, I swear, only about one in twenty of them were actually scabious. But I grew several hundred of them and got enough true scabious types to breed with.

As a breeder, I am quite happy to get one in twenty "good" zinnias. I just use the good ones, and cull most of the rest. But the average gardener is appalled by a one-keeper-in-twenty ratio, and I am sure Parks got a lot of complaints about that variety, because they promptly discontinued it. I think I have an old unused packet of it somewhere that I will plant next Spring, just for "old times sake." After this many years it may not germinate.

"So I'd rather have the double Whirligig."

The Whirligigs from Stokes Seeds are of the "double" strain, and Stokes offers larger quantities of seeds for economical prices. I bought a quarter pound of their Whirligigs a few years ago and I will be planting out the last of them this Spring. A quarter pound turned out to be a multi-year supply, even for me.

I don't know where Stokes is currently getting their Whirligigs, but mine came from Tanzania, and they were quite good with lots of different types that you could never show in a catalog picture or on a seed packet.

"I like my zinnias tall and up in my face"

Me, too. I'll probably grow a few Benary's Giants next Spring, because they are bred to be cut flowers, and their long stems tend to make them taller.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

ZM -
That's a very good question. I am saying it is a good question, because I don't know the answer. I have never tried to grow a zinnia plant to an advanced stage indoors

So, are you telling me I have to figure it out for myself? Is this like a zen koan? Never give the student a straight answer? And if you think I'm going to wait around for some university gardening geek to post a paper on it, you can forget it. What do they know anyway? Probably sitting comfortably inside somewhere, swigging diet Mountain Dew and watching reruns of The Walking Dead instead of painstakingly pampering pots of prima donna posies.

Queen Gardener - granted I had less than 2 dozen scabious flowered zinnias planted this last season, but only 2 really looked like the package. The rest were just sort of semi-double with prominent heads which got more prominent as the season wore on. And we're big Star Trek fans ourselves. A couple of years back, when we were busy trapping and spaying the cats living around our property, there were at least 9 of the young ones who were blacks. We named one of them Seven, and later, when we realized there were actually 2 who looked exactly alike that we'd both been calling Seven, we renamed the male Seven Point One. :)
- Alex
P.S. Zenman, you will be happy to know that after feeding the boron-laced solution to Alpha and Beta, that the leaf curl problem disappeared. And thanks for the report on the website.

Hi Alex,

"So, are you telling me I have to figure it out for myself?"

Well, pretty much. Your little Alpha and Beta guys are ahead of any zinnias that I have indoors, and they will stay ahead of them. It's not like my zinnias can grow faster and catch up. You have already harvested some seed from them, so even if they die tomorrow you will have succeeded with your project. But, of course, the longer you can keep them going, the more seeds you can harvest.

Like I said, I have never done this before -- growing zinnias indoors for an indefinite time. I can make some semi-educated guesses. As the seed set becomes more extensive, the zinnia plants will be diverting more of their available nutrition into the seeds. Zinnias are good at "robbing Peter to pay Paul" and we have seen that happen when flowering begins and the zinnias steal nutrients from their lower leaves to help form buds and blooms. I think the same thing may happen to an even greater extent in the seed setting phase. Only, instead of just sacrificing the lower leaves, the plant may sacrifice its life to give the seeds as much nutrition as possible.

So we can try to think of ways to help the plant meet the burgeoning nutrition requirements of the developing seeds. Repotting to a larger pot might be one way. Foliar feeding. More light. Maybe add some sugar and glycerin to the foliar feed, in case photosynthesis has become a bottleneck. We need some brainstorming. More later.

ZM

I have some questions about growing zinnia's and I hope I have come to the right place!

I have only recently gotten into gardening (container gardening, to be specific) but I already have lots of different types of plants, most I have grown from seeds. I am quite a nerd, very proud of my balcony garden and checking on what is happening every day - it is so fascinating to me.

Of all the plants I have grown or am currently growing, I have fallen in love with zinnia's the hardest. I have never found them to be the most beautiful of flowers, but now having grown my own (they are young, no flower buds yet) I have such a fondness for them for that I have found myself trying to learn as much as I can about them to ensure their on-going care and progress. I have read lots of articles online, but I thought it would be more helpful to speak to actual people who know how to garden.

The type of zinnia I am growing is called "Early Wonder Mixed". It's Mr. Fothergill's brand, I bought it for $1.50.

My first question is regarding how much sunlight zinnia's need. I know they need a lot, but do other factors come into play when providing them with audequate exposure to the types of weather they enjoy? I live in a tropical state in Australia, in a very hot and humid city, especially during summer when we experience storms almost every evening. My zinnia's don't get full, all-day sun where I have them, but it is always hot and humid. Would that affect their ability to thrive or not?

Secondly, with pinching, is there a specific time to stop? I have pinched each of my zinnia's a number of times and they are branching out really well. Their leaves are huge and kind of look like basil plants! Should I stop now that they are nice and bushy?

And lastly, is there anything I can do to encourage blooming? My zinnia's are roughly 8 weeks, possibly up to 10. They were moderately damaged during a record hail storm a few weeks ago, but have bounced back better than ever. I would love them to bloom. They are my pride and joy!

Thank you :)

I regularly almost kill my plants and bring them back. That's part of why I'm reluctant to post pictures of my indoor growing.... I may need to, because I'm starting to wonder if I'm misdiagnosing a nutrient deficiency/poisoning as a fungal infection. The leaf tips keep browning out, sometimes getting almost black in spots, and getting crunchy, as if they were dried out from the tips, but my issue is more over watering.

It's good to know that zinnias are hardy plants and virtually indestructable. I must admit, after having read almost everywhere that zinnias hate to be transplanted, I was very worried about repotting them to bigger containers once their size became apparent. They didn't show any signs of distress at all and simply continued to thrive. They have been so impressive with their fast, confident growth, I'm sure I will have flowers really soon.

I'm not sure about our local birds and their seeds. We have Noisy Minors and crows in this area, mostly. The biggest problem around these parts are possums. They eat everything!

My zinnias look really healthy with no signs of disease so far as I can tell. They get about 4-5 hours of full sun a day. I will say, though, during those hours, the heat is intense.

Hello Lady Zinnia,

I see you just registered on GardenWeb today. On behalf of all of us, welcome to GardenWeb and this message string.

"I have some questions about growing zinnia's and I hope I have come to the right place! "

I think you have.

" I have never found them to be the most beautiful of flowers..."

Zinnias are capable of much more than what you can find in the commercial seed packets.

Incidentally, since you are new here, I will explain a little (or a lot) about the pictures that I post. GardenWeb limits the size of our pictures to 550 pixels wide, in order to make room for their advertising column on the right-hand side. They need to make money, and I have no quarrel with that. So my pictures comply with that limit. But I have created larger 1000-pixel versions that you can see by clicking on my picture. When a new picture emerges, hit the F11 key to hide the headings. Since the picture may not fit in your screen, a vertical scroll bar allows you to move up and down in the picture. Your mouse cursor may be a plus sign (+) to indicate that you can click to get the maximum size of the picture, which may also contain a horizontal scroll bar. The mouse cursor changes to a minus sign (-) to indicate that you can click it again to return to the single scrollbar view. To return here, hit the F11 key again to restore your headings.

Or you can skip all that, and just view the picture as it stands here. However, sometimes you can see additional detail on the larger full screen picture. That clicking thing, as I have described it, does not apply to pictures posted by other people. I almost feel that I should have put that paragraph above in fine print. But, as a "senior citizen", I am a large print guy.

"The type of zinnia I am growing is called "Early Wonder Mixed". It's Mr. Fothergill's brand, I bought it for $1.50. "

It will be interesting to explore what varieties of zinnias are readily available to you in Australia.

"My first question is regarding how much sunlight zinnia's need."

Zinnias are said to require "full sun", which usually means 8 hours of direct sunlight exposure per day. They can survive on less, but not as well.

" My zinnia's don't get full, all-day sun where I have them, but it is always hot and humid. Would that affect their ability to thrive or not?"

Zinnias like heat, and don't mind humidity, although some foliage diseases might be favored by humidity.

"Secondly, with pinching, is there a specific time to stop? I have pinched each of my zinnia's a number of times and they are branching out really well. Their leaves are huge and kind of look like basil plants! Should I stop now that they are nice and bushy? "

You could keep pinching to make them even bushier, but if you want blooms now, stop pinching and you should have a lot of blooms soon. Without pinching, zinnias usually put out a main stem bloom in six to eight weeks after germination. I have gotten blooms in 5 weeks from planting in my indoor growing situation, where I have my fluorescent lights timer set for 16 or 17 hours of daylight per day. From the standpoint of aesthetics, pinching as you do produces much nicer looking plants.

"It's good to know that zinnias are hardy plants and virtually indestructible."

They are easily destroyed by a killing frost. That is why they are classified as "tender" annuals, and not "hardy" in the sense of being able to survive cold weather.

" I must admit, after having read almost everywhere that zinnias hate to be transplanted, ..."

By "transplanting", those articles refer to the situation where you have a zinnia growing in-ground in your garden or landscape, and you want to re-locate it by digging it up, digging a new hole somewhere, and putting your "root ball" into the new hole. That almost always does serious damage to the roots, and loses a significant part of the root system, which leaves an inadequate root system to support the existing top plant structure. As you have discovered, re-potting to a larger pot in container growing is actually appreciated by the zinnia plant.

"I'm not sure about our local birds and their seeds. We have Noisy Minors and crows in this area, mostly. The biggest problem around these parts are possums. They eat everything!"

We have possums here, too. One of our few marsupials. They don't bother my zinnias, but they have killed chickens and guineas. (I live in a rural environment.) You aren't in the saving-zinnia-seeds mode, yet, but when you are, there are some seed-eating birds (like finches) that will eat mature zinnia seeds. I don't know about your Australian birds. I pick my zinnias seeds while they are still green to avoid that problem in my outdoor zinnias.

"My zinnias look really healthy with no signs of disease so far as I can tell. They get about 4-5 hours of full sun a day. I will say, though, during those hours, the heat is intense."

We are very interested in your Australian experiences with zinnias and will welcome your participation here. If you have pictures you would like to post, feel free to do so. Don't worry about the 550-pixel rule. If your pictures are over-sized, the GardenWeb will automatically resize them to 550-pixels wide. I don't know if there is a vertical pixel limit. I haven't encountered one, but most of my pictures are proportioned to fit my monitor screen.

Once again, Lady Zinnia, welcome here.

ZM

Hi Mister.Guy,

I can't tell you how pleased and impressed that I am by your last message.

Awesome. Thanks so much for posting that.

ZM

A few weeks ago I realised that my zinnias were going to be too big for where I had them planted. I had three to a pot and they were just terribly overcrowded. So I had to dig around each plant with my trowel in a circle so I could eventually just lift the whole thing out and move it to another, larger container. I was really worried about damaging the root ball or disrupting their growth somehow but they never showed any signs of distress. Maybe I just got lucky! I am going to have to do the same thing with a few others that are overcrowded, so I will let you guys know how it goes.

I have heaps of pictures of my zinnias, I will post some up shortly! So far, the only varieties I have seen in commerical or garden stores are the Early Wonder mix I have planted, and one called Blue Duchess, I believe.

Hi Lady Zinnia,

"So far, the only varieties I have seen in commerical or garden stores are the Early Wonder mix I have planted, and one called Blue Duchess, I believe."

"Blue Duchess" seems improbable for a zinnia variety, since blue is the one color that zinnias don't have. You might be thinking of "Purple Prince", which is an heirloom zinnia variety.

Being in Australia, you are rather limited in what zinnia varieties you can purchase locally, or even purchase by mail order. One seemingly credible Australian company offers only one packet of zinnia seeds. The largest Australian zinnia offering I have found so far has only 20 zinnia selections. By "shopping around" you can find a few zinnias not included in that group of 20, such as this one which offers a couple of new bicolored zinnias, along with a few other good selections.

However, there are many hundreds of zinnia varieties to choose from and, at this moment, I can't figure out how they could be available to you.

There are seed companies that sell internationally, and one of them is Thompson & Morgan Worldwide. However, local customs restrictions prevent them from delivering to certain countries. This statement is copy-and-pasted from their site.

We regret that, due to local customs restrictions, we are not able to send any items to the following countries:
Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Australia, Colombia, Egypt, Kenya, Kuwait, Libya, Moldova, Morocco, New Zealand, Nigeria or South Africa.

I doubt that any of us could even mail you some seeds without having them confiscated by Australian customs.

However, I have provided links to probably more zinnia varieties than you currently have room for, and you can do a lot by making a cross between just two varieties to get an F1 hybrid, from which you can get F2 progeny with an amazing variety of new forms that neither parent exhibited.

So, despite Australian customs restrictions, I think you can do just fine with your zinnias. We will be watching for some of those pictures of Early Wonder Mix, which, incidentally, I have never grown.

ZM

Hi dbarron,

"Fresh zinnias for the table (if you didn't want seeds) in December..."

But I do want seeds. (grin) Some of my indoor zinnias could make nice blooms in a vase, like this one.

However, I will use it as a female breeder zinnia, because it doesn't have pollen. Like a few others, it does have a pastel lavender color with enough of a hint of blue to provide false hope that it might have blue offspring. It does have a wavy look that I and Alex like. Hopefully that waviness might show up in some of its progeny, maybe in a new way.

Having blooming zinnias in the Winter does raise my spirits. When there is snow outside, it feels like a guilty pleasure to be looking out at a Winter wonderland while cross-pollinating fancy zinnias inside.

"I'm impressed Zenman. They look great."

Thanks for the compliment. You are always welcome to grow some zinnias as a hobby and post pictures. We need some Arkansas zinnia experiences here. Is the soil rocky where you are?

It was rocky soil in the Mena area where my paternal grandparents lived. My grandfather grew tobacco and had it hanging in his garage to cure. I think he made cigars with it, but I'm not sure -- I was just a kid. They had wild sassafras trees growing and we always collected some of the bark and roots to make sassafras tea. It had a pinkish look and tasted uniquely great. I usually put some milk in mine. But we quit doing that when some negative health news was put out about sassafras tea. Grocery stores that had been carrying sassafras bark for tea making discontinued it. Oh, well. I liked it, and I don't think it hurt me. I got a little off-topic there, but that is OK.

ZM

You know what, I think you're right. I think the "Blue Duchess" I was thinking of were actually asters, not zinnias.

I would absolutely love to cross-pollonate my zinnias but I wouldn't have the first clue where to start. Reading this thread in its entirety just might help :) I'm pretty sure I have at least one flower bud forming now, so I am very excited.

Thank you so much for all the links to the different types of zinnias. I have never seen that many, online, and definitely not in our stores here. I think I'm okay to continue sowing zinnia seeds through summer, so I'll definitely have to purchase some and get started. My balcony is going to be overflowing, but that's how I like it!

You're right about customs, too. They definitely wouldn't allow any seeds in, our customs regulations are incredibly strict. I have had American candy and all kinds of things be seized by them before.

Hi Lady Zinnia

"I would absolutely love to cross-pollinate my zinnias but I wouldn't have the first clue where to start."

The last time we provided full details of the zinnia hybridizing process was in a message to the user "fullmoon" back in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 27. It was posted on Wed, Sep 24, 14 at 23:21, so you will have to read down quite a way in that message thread to find the material you want.

Cross pollinating zinnias is actually quite easy. You might want to mark the blooms that you have pollinated, so you will know which ones to save seeds from. You could even start fairly soon, by cross-pollinating some of your soon-to-emerge favorites in your Early Wonder mix.

In your warm climate, you might be able to make some crosses now, and plant green seeds from those crosses as soon as they are "plump", in order to get a second generation of zinnias to see what your hybrids look like.

If I "stumble across" an Australian source for the Whirligig strain of zinnias, I will post it. Whirligigs are an excellent addition to any zinnia breeding project.

ZM

Hi NC,

"Please Post Some Photos of Your Zinnias With a Snowy Backdrop..."

I will do so as soon as we get a good snow. I am hoping we will have one by Christmas. The flurry that we had was very thin, and melted off promptly.

ZM

ZM - I've said it before, but with that lavender, I have to revise my former statements - that is definitely my favorite of all you've posted. If I were looking for absolute perfection according to my personal tastes, the bloom would be 5+ inches in size and maybe with longer petals. And, of course, a true blue. Though, in truth, that color is sublime in its own right. It inspires me.

Finished downloading programs and transferring all my files back into my cleaned laptop, and I have the first report card for Kaspersky Security System - a big thumbs up. At no point in the process did it bog things down with excessive watchdog-isms. It asked me at every new venture if I wanted to do what I was doing; I said 'yes', and then it let me do it. No histrionics, no hoop-jumping - just simple efficiency. I like that in a cyber-system. :)
- Alex

Hi Alex,

I am glad Kaspersky is playing nice with you. Also glad you liked the lavender. My favorites change from day to day. This one is not a favorite, but I am giving it breeder status based on its combination of Whirligig and scabious traits.

The Razzle Dazzle genetics continue to baffle me. I guess there are several versions of it, since one version has proved to be dominant and another version is recessive in a very subtle way, in that it does tend to induce waviness in the flower form. I am just going to have to grow some of their seeds to get another generation of recombinance, which might help me to "figure out" the Razzle Dazzle genetics. More later.

ZM

ZM - did that one come from Razzle Dazzle stock? I can see the whirligig and scabious in it. It's hard for me not to think about starting some of these seeds I've pulled from Alpha and Beta, but I'm forcing myself to hold off until March when I start my other stuff. Otherwise I'll have to fire up more lights now, and it means more work and more electricity - it all adds up money and time-wise. Patience, patience. It's only a few months.

I also am itching to look for other 'exotic' zinnia seeds, but at the same time I say "No - why not see what you get from the crosses already made?" Who knows what cool treasures are lying dormant in my harvested seeds?

And question: which ancestry are you thinking is responsible for the waviness effect? To my mind, it's a variation on the cactus, but are you thinking it's a combination of different forms?

Warm up here - going to be in the 40's for awhile, but unfortunately it's going to be a wet 40's. Still - better than teens or 20s...

Oh, and meant to add that Alpha's secondary blooms look just like the primary bloom, if a little smaller. No surprises there. Beta's second bloom is going to open in a few days. We'll see if there's a change in it from the primary bloom.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" ...did that one come from Razzle Dazzle stock? I can see the whirligig and scabious in it."

I think it was a petal seed self from a zinnia that had obvious scabious and Whirligig genes. Probably no Razzle Dazzle in it. Although some petal stigmas on that plant did receive some RD pollen. But apparently not very many. I have several seedlings from that plant that haven't bloomed yet, and remain expectant about them.

"It's hard for me not to think about starting some of these seeds I've pulled from Alpha and Beta, but I'm forcing myself to hold off until March when I start my other stuff. "

That makes sense. Prolonging the development of Alpha and Beta is, in itself, progress. I have a lot of lights going now and that does add to our electric bill, but I rationalize that the heat from the lights does decrease our Propane bill somewhat. The utility room where my zinnias are growing doesn't have any output vents from the central furnace/air conditioning system, so the utility room is largely warmed by the lights. I'm probably breathing extra oxygen courtesy of the zinnias. And they are getting carbon dioxide exhaled by me. So that is a win/win.

Zinnias have a lot of unsolved mysteries, and one of them is how much one branch can differ from another on the same plant. This is a picture of a side branch from the Bed Head zinnia.

It is generally recognized that long leaves are preferable to short leaves on a zinnia plant, but that zinnia has an extreme form of sword-shaped leaves. I didn't know that zinnia leaves could be that slender and sharp, but I guess that zinnia has showed us, once again, that "zinnias can do that."

"And question: which ancestry are you thinking is responsible for the waviness effect? "

I think the waviness originally came from an interaction between Whirligig genetic factors and Cactus genetic factors, even though neither of the two exhibited waviness by themselves. But now I am also seeing waviness from crosses involving pollen from Razzle Dazzles. The genetics of the waviness is apparently non-simple, and may involve a somewhat complex interaction of factors. I am now seeing quite a lot of waviness, and that will show up in some future pictures. More later.

ZM

ZM - we also have a propane heating system, though, right now it's mostly for backup and rarely on for the reason that downstairs we heat with wood (soapstone woodstove), and upstairs where the plant station is, we have plugged in a refurbished Edenpure electric heater. We've used them at the shop in two of the back rooms and they are fairly economical (as compared to propane). I much prefer the wood heat, though it's messier because of ash particles which will settle on everything in a fine dust.

Prolonging the development of Alpha and Beta is, in itself, progress.

Just looking at Alpha and Beta and the multiple side shoots they are both setting, makes me think they would go on indefinitely, given proper growing conditions. Not sure if I want to carry the experiment on till spring, since I'm probably going to need the light space, but we'll see.

Those are definitely some lance-shaped leaves on your Bedhead. I see that the top leaves of both A & B seem rather longer and more narrow than the bottom leaves too, though not as sharp as yours. Wouldn't have noticed it if you hadn't posted this pic.

I am now seeing quite a lot of waviness, and that will show up in some future pictures.

Looking forward to it! And to seeing if my own hybrids will start to exhibit some waves this next season. The anticipation...

- Alex

Hi Alex,

"Just looking at Alpha and Beta and the multiple side shoots they are both setting, makes me think they would go on indefinitely, given proper growing conditions."

Mister.Guy left a great message back on Tue, Dec 9, 14 at 8:43, in which, among other things, he said,

"Zinnias are strictly speaking immortal, unless cancer or an outside force kills them. If you think you've got one that is dying from "age", you can regenerate the entire thing from a single cell, or even some specific fraction of a cell, and start over. Any indoor zinnia that is pooping out can be heavily trimmed, roots and shoots, repotted and fertilized to bring it back from pretty near death. Virii, bacteria, and fungus can be harder to beat, but if you have a "clean" plant, you can keep it going essentially forever."

I haven't had any experience refurbishing an indoor zinnia that is "pooping out" like Mister.Guy described, but that sounds quite plausible. In fact, his entire message sounds plausible, and if so, it corrects several common misperceptions and misconceptions about zinnias and annuals in general. In the past I have wondered if zinnias had some kind of built-in "genetic death mode" that kicks in after an effective "year" of growth. Specifically, I am thinking of those salmon that spawn and, after reproducing, go into a spectacular rapid degeneration and die within days. That seems to be genetic.

A few years ago I had a scabious recombinant zinnia that had been crossed with something, perhaps a Whirligig or a Burpeeana, and it had a lot of medium small scabious-like blooms on an impressively large multi-branched plant. As it set a lot of seeds and their seedheads matured to the dry brown stage, I naturally expected that the whole plant would wither and die. But it kept re-branching and pumping out new blooms. The fact that a new bloom had a nearby dead brown seedhead didn't seem to bother its continued development. At the time I felt that such behavior was atypical and evidence of a genetic "fountain of youth" factor. I had assumed that a zinnia needed to be deadheaded for prolonged development. That plant certainly didn't need deadheading. I now tend to believe that I agree with Mister.Guy that, with qualifications, a zinnia can be considered to be "immortal". Which is good news for breeding them.

"Not sure if I want to carry the experiment on till spring, since I'm probably going to need the light space, but we'll see. "

I'm not pressuring you in any way to continue the experiment. You have already gone far beyond reasonable expectations, not just for an initial plant breeding project, but for an advanced project. You have made F1 cross pollinations, extracted embryos from green seeds and grown plants from those embryos, recovered successfully from a challenging growing mishap, and now you are accumulating F2 generation seeds from adult plants that are growing indoors. You are on-track to see your very own F2 blooms next Spring. Impressive.

Oddly, a lot of the waviness I am seeing in my indoor blooms seems to be a result from attempts to increase the size of my Razzle Dazzle strain, by crossing RDs with larger zinnias. I was expecting larger versions of the Razzle Dazzles, but getting strangely modified versions of the larger zinnias instead. This is one of those "strangely modified" large zinnias, with high likelihood of a Razzle Dazzle pollen parent.

Its petal texture seems "different" and the edges of the petals have an unusual feel. I am reminded of those brown tips on the original star-tipped mutant. My indoor project is focused on the Razzle Dazzles, and I obviously have a lot to learn about them. But learning can be interesting. More later.

ZM

Near as I can tell, it's a hormone balance thing, and hormones can be flushed. Plants, despite being wildly complex, are are their core hydraulic machines. External factors are entirely responsible for what particular hormones are produced where, and physical interactions with the outside universe determine where those hormones get deposited. It's all chemistry and physics, which may be true for animals but our nervous systems make it harder to demonstrate. Plants and lower animals are incapable of overriding the hormonal impulses, but humans are capable of understanding some of them and countering them directly. All you have to do is either destroy or remove the hormone you don't want and add enough of the hormone you do want to get the desired physical response.

Of course, bacteria, virii, and fungus make a LOT of this just bold theoretical talk, because they'll take advantage of the stress being caused and pounce.

However, that being said, if you have more hormone being produced signaling that growth is actively occurring the plant will try to grow as long the environment supports it. Some plants will essentially use up certain hormones that are only produced during periods when the plant is not actively growing, and others will produce hormones that actively stifle growth once seeds are produced. However, it's now possible, like I said at least in theory, to directly provide hormones that will encourage the behavior we want. It's just a matter of knowing what the species does that causes it to kill itself, and heading it off. Zinnias were bread as a food crop by birds, essentially, naturally selected for migration. I don't see any evidence they weren't naturally selected to keep providing seeds as long as the environment supports it.

At least until you get spider mites or thrips.

!&*^^#$ spider mites, they kill everything.

I've had a nasty habit of selecting my zinnias by space concerns, and throwing away all the adults once they got any kind of disease or had provided me with sufficient seeds to ensure another round. I only have a few traits I'm playing with, I'm mostly just trying to grow through multiple generations as fast as possible to see what happens. I just thought it should be appropriately noted that I wasn't demonstrating any kind of immortality in my crop, especially once you take disease into account, which as you know one must always, always do.

Hi Alex,

"It's pretty, but doesn't look much like any of the others in the pics you've posted. Interesting."

When you pull the petals back, you can see some unusual structure there. A slight tubular base, and "fingers" as well.

Those tell-tail differences increase the likelihood that that zinnia did have a Razzle Dazzle pollen parent.

"What comes next, I wonder?"

There may be strange recombinations of genetic factors to yield something really different. Zinnias are full of surprises, so there is always anticipation of something interesting happening.

ZM

Hi Alex,

"I've got an idea brewing...I'm thinking of letting A & B keep going until it's time to start my 2015 garden seeds - peppers, flowers, et al. Then, as per Mister Guy's idea, ...Then, after last frost, I'll plant them out. Whaddaya think?"

Uh, sounds like a plan. That covers a time span of several months. There is always the possibility of an appearance by the "frumious Bandersnatch" in the guise of Thrips or Spider Mites. Or, the ever popular Powdery Mildew. Just be on the lookout for any potential problems. But you have been surprisingly successful so far, considering that zinnias are far from being houseplants.

I have been trying to increase my situation awareness regarding the Razzle Dazzles. It appears that there are at least three different types. One is the type that has floret petals at the bottom of the bloom and conventional pollen florets at the top of the bloom.

All three types have pollen inside the floret petals, so I am crossing all three types with more conventional zinnias in the hope of improving them and making them larger. And there is always the possibility that recombining their genetic factors in subsequent generations will produce some as yet unseen zinnia forms. More later.

ZM

Hi Mister.Guy,

"However, it's now possible, like I said at least in theory, to directly provide hormones that will encourage the behavior we want. "

That's a good idea for experimentation. As it happens, there is quite a variety of plant growth regulators commercially available, including those for use in tissue culture. I'll keep that in mind, in case a situation arises that seems to call for a hormone, auxin, or plant growth regulator. There might be situations when it would be advantageous to apply a tissue culture chemical to a growing plant.

ZM

Humans break evolution, because we're aware of it and can act to override it. We're just fortune to live in this time period when we can both demystify the world and marvel at its complexity and trend towards goodness and life at the same time.

Mister Guy -

I would trim it back to one branch first, give it two weeks to recover from the shock, then cut the stem back.

I hear and obey.

ZM - just you keep your negative projections to yourself; my little darlings are in perfect health and mean to stay that way! And if they succumb to bandersnatches, then it's the compost for them: "Heave ho, me hearties!"

Beta's second bloom is starting to show stigmas. Will be pollinating them tomorrow.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

"...my little darlings are in perfect health and mean to stay that way! "

A few days ago, I spotted this situation on one of my zinnias.

Those were almost all cross pollinated and most of the stigmas have shriveled and fallen away. The remaining ones were pollinated the next day. Those fertilized tubular flowerheads remind me a bit of pineapples.

We are getting a light snow now. More later.

ZM

H Mister Guy,

"At the very least, sometimes the only way to salvage a plant is to force it to grow some clean growth that you protect chemically, and to cut that off and force rooting in a sterile environment."

I have propagated zinnias successfully from cuttings. The trick is to prevent bacterial rot of the soft tissue, while the rooting hormones have time to stimulate root growth from the stems. I use Physan 20 as a short term bactericide and a commercial product called Dip 'n Grow as a liquid rooting concentrate.

I think there may be situations in which it would not be feasible to force a zinnia to produce some clean growth. There are some plant diseases, like Aster Yellows, in which the prudent thing to do is dispose of the plant. I cull my outdoor zinnias heavily. If a really rare breeder zinnia had a probem, then I might resort to some heroic measures to recover some usable part of the plant. I haven't developed the capability to tissue culture zinnias yet, although that is on my "to do" list.

"Humans break evolution, because we're aware of it and can act to override it. We're just fortune to live in this time period when we can both demystify the world and marvel at its complexity and trend towards goodness and life at the same time. "

Ideally, that would be the case and could be the case. Although we continue to pump carbon dioxide into our atmosphere, when that is a suicidal thing to do. We seem hell-bent on making this planet unfit for human habitation before we develop the ability to migrate to another unspoiled planet. We need to stop putting carbon dioxide into our atmosphere and start taking it out on a large scale. A lot of plants could do that. There may be other ways as well.

But we need to change our ways if we want to make the cut as an intelligent species. I just can't grow enough zinnias to save humanity. More later.

ZM

I'm really excited and I wanted to share with you guys - I almost have flowers on my zinnias! I know that's not AS exciting as actual flowers, but I have fretted over them every day since they started developing flower buds, hoping against hope that they were getting enough sun and TLC to actually bloom. The buds have gone from just green, to green with black edges, and on one of them, I can now see a hint of a beautiful, violet purple colour. It's working! I really think I will have flowers soon as the buds are popping up everywhere. Is this a good sign that their growing conditions are suitable?

I also wanted to ask you guys where you stand when it comes to things like Seasol. My parents (avid gardeners themselves) swear by it, but I have heard horror stories about overdoing it and ending up burning your plants? I have used it a few times in probably ineffectively small doses and I'm wondering if you guys could shed any light on your experience with it, or other "tonics" like PowerFeed?

Looking forward to hearing back from ya'll! Happy Holidays!

Hi Mister Guy,

"We're going to feed the carbon dioxide to high density algea farns for the next round of bio diesel..."

Sounds like a plan. But we need to start implementing it, on a multi-nation basis. ASAP.

And, not to be a wet blanket, but sucking the carbon out of the atmosphere only to return it back to the atmosphere from diesel engines is "carbon neutral". It doesn't make any actual reduction in the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

The "white cliffs of Dover" represent an enormous deposit of calcium carbonate, and there are other enormous deposits of limestone on a global scale, which ancient algae and similar plant life created by absorbing an enormous amount of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Creating all that limestone made this planet habitable for animal life.

"Carbon neutral" isn't good enough. We need to create the equivalent of mountains of carbon dioxide in solid stable form in order to actually reduce the atmospheric carbon dioxide level to a level that existed before our binge of fossil fuel burning. Eighteen wheelers and trains need to burn hydrogen, preferably in efficient fuel cells.

ZM

Hello again, Lady Zinnia,

"I also wanted to ask you guys where you stand when it comes to things like Seasol. My parents (avid gardeners themselves) swear by it, but I have heard horror stories about overdoing it and ending up burning your plants? I have used it a few times in probably ineffectively small doses and I'm wondering if you guys could shed any light on your experience with it, or other "tonics" like PowerFeed? "

Seasol and Powerfeed are both Australian products produced by Seasol International PTY LTD. I haven't seen any of those products offered in any of the garden centers I have been to here in the United States, although there may have been importers that brought the products in.

I suspect these products appeal to organic gardeners, and I am not an organic gardener, although I do practice some of their methods, like compost piles.

Seasol is not a fertilizer, since it contains negligible amounts of nitrogen and phosphorous. I haven't seen any analysis as to what it is composed of. Organic products frequently do not specify their composition, for whatever reasons. Seasol, like many similar seaweed products, is made from dead seaweed (mostly kelp) that washes ashore. I suspect that Seasol and Powerfeed are marketed primarily in Australia.

There is a book that is coming out early next year, Australian Garden Rescue by Mary Horsfall, that describes the results of using Seasol and several similar products. You can get some idea of the book's contents by using Amazon's "Read Inside" feature.

"...but I have heard horror stories about overdoing it and ending up burning your plants?"

Using too much of anything can result in a horror story. The book I mentioned, by Mary Horsfall, considers Seasol to be a soil conditioner, so using twice as much shouldn't hurt. But using a huge amount of anything is not a good idea.

"It's working! I really think I will have flowers soon as the buds are popping up everywhere. Is this a good sign that their growing conditions are suitable? "

It's not a bad sign. Hopefully you will have pictures of your new zinnias to post here before long.

I mentioned earlier that if I "stumbled across" an Australian source for the Whirligig strain of zinnias, I would post it. Well, I "stumbled," and it might be a source not of just Whirligigs, but of a "treasure trove" of zinnia varieties, and many other garden seeds, as well. Swallowtail Garden Seeds, in their International Shipping Information section, say that they will ship to Australia, and many other countries.

I think their success in shipping to Australia (and many other countries) is that they can issue phytosanitary certificates. You might not need to provide a phytosanitary certificate on a small order. I would suggest ordering just a packet of Whirligig seeds as a low investment attempt to use the Swallowtail Garden Seeds source without paying for a phytosanitary certificate.

But you could email questions about the possibility of doing that to the email address that appears on the Swallowtail page that I linked above. Most seed companies will not provide phytosanitary certificates, so Swallowtail is rather unique in doing so. They may have gained Australia's trust.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Lady Zinnia - so happy to hear that you have buds - we look forward to pics. On the subject of Seasol and whatever, I know absolutely nothing. So sad to be so ignorant. :)

And just so yall don't think I'm talkin' out my hat about my own kids, here's an up to date family portrait.
That's little Beta Junior on the far left, and the two Alpha secondary blooms with the old bloom in between. Beta Senior is behind the left Alpha secondary flower. As you can see, the Alphas look just like the primary Alpha did. Not sure if that will be true of Beta Jr, since it seems to have more petals starting in the center of the cone than Beta Sr did.

Hi NC,

"Please Post Some Photos of Your Zinnias With a Snowy Backdrop.... "

We had a couple of inches of snow last night, so that was enough to make a snowy backdrop.

The driveway already shows some melting, so I don't think this snow is going to hang on until Christmas. But the weather guys think we might get some more snow for Christmas. I much prefer being inside when the weather is like this. I think I will make some hot cocoa. That should "hit the spot".

ZM

ZM - Pretty! The lighting almost makes the flowers look "frosty". Yeah, we're going to have snow for Christmas, too. Supposedly the sun is coming out today, but I'll believe it when I see it. Haven't had sun for days. Tues it starts raining, turning to snow on Weds and continuing through Christmas, though they're not calling for much accumulation. Fine with me. Gotta go up and check on the kids. Beta Jr should be almost completely unfurled by now.
- Alex

We have finally had some nice, sunny weather after a rather dreary few weeks, so I seized the opportunity to take some pictures of my zinnias, as promised. I apologise that the picture quality isn't superb, but I just used my cameraphone for these ones.

I'm not really sure what I'm doing when it comes to uploading photo's in a nice, orderly fashion like ZM does! It seems to only let me upload one picture. I will post some more later when I figure out how to :)

Hi Lady Zinnia,

No need to apologize for picture quality. That picture is quite clear, and your zinnias look very healthy.

"I'm not really sure what I'm doing when it comes to uploading photo's in a nice, orderly fashion like ZM does! It seems to only let me upload one picture. I will post some more later when I figure out how to :) "

There are several ways to get a picture from your computer into a message here. Fortunately GardenWeb lets us use a limited amount of HTML in our message text. If you know a little HTML then you know that HTML uses angle brackets (the less-than and greater-than symbols) to identify itself. I will show you how to insert a picture inside your message text, instead at the end. The HTML method has the advantages that you can post more than one picture in a message, and you can control where in the message the picture appears. I am going to precede the HTML for inserting a picture with the same command in which square brackets have been substituted for angle brackets, so that you can know the command that was used. So, if I insert this line in the message,

[img src="http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/ annuals/msg120150428825.121041033860.jpg"]

then the image that Alex just posted appears.

The image src is the URL address of the image. You can find the URL of an image in this forum by right-clicking on it to open a popup which offers you many options, including Properties at the bottom of the popup. Left-click on Properties and you will get a Properties popup which includes an Address (URL) for the image you clicked on.

Before I go further in this explanation, I will pause for you to ask questions, and tell us how familiar you are with HTML.

ZM

Hi NC,

You are welcome. I'm glad you liked the picture.

ZM

Hi Mister Guy,

"...but algae are the most likely answer. They don't need a profitable product as long as they extract gases and excrete a solid or liquid that we can store, especially if it's something we can just pump right back down into tapped fields."

Agreed.

ZM

Hello all,

The first seedlings of my second indoor generation have appeared, and here they are.

More will follow in the next few weeks. These managed to make their appearance before Christmas. More later.

ZM

Hi Alex,

"...I ...must...resist... "

In your case, resistance is not futile. There are lots of fun interesting things you can do besides play nursemaid to a few zinnias. You have a bookstore and cats. And other activities. I wouldn't want you to "burn out" in your zinnia activity, and you have already gone far beyond any expectations for a new zinnia project. I have the benefit of repeated encouragement by various new zinnia specimens that have promise, like this one that bloomed out recently.

It has a lot of "air" between its long, almost delicate petals. It is nearly a new flower form, because its petals radiate in nearly all directions, outward, downward, and upward. And they have some waviness and are a little corrugated, too. And it shares its long-narrow petal configuration with my aster flowered zinnias. Only these petals point more outward in all directions rather than hang down like the aster flowered zinnias tend to. I have already crossed this specimen with Bed Head pollen. Incidentally, several of my new seedlings are Bed Head progeny. More later. Our snow is all gone.

ZM

We look forward to great things with the Bed Head crosses. Oh, and don't worry - there's more snow on the way. :)

- Alex

Hi woodnative,

" The scabious types can be crossed with whirligigs, correct?"

The scabious types can be crossed with Whirligigs and the whole range of diploid Z. elegans (violacea), including the taller types like Benary's Giants and cactus flowered (including Burpee's Burpeeanas).

"...or are some of these Tets?"

The tetraploid zinnias that you are likely to encounter are State Fair, Burpee's Big Tetra Mix, and I saw somewhere that the separate color called Senorita is tetraploid. I would avoid tetraploid zinnias in a breeding program, at least to start with. You could experiment with creating triploids by crossing tetraploids with diploids, but triploids can't set seeds, so they are kind of a "dead end" in a breeding project. Their sterility is an advantage in that by not setting seeds, they tend to have a longer blooming period. One company is even experimenting with producing triploid zinnias for landscaping purposes, but they haven't introduced anything into the market yet. If I get a really good zinnia, I want to be able to save seeds from it, so I stay away from tetraploids and triploids.

"Is 'Carousel Mix' the same as 'Whirlgigs'"

They are very similar, and both were derived from the same interspecific hybridizations. I wouldn't eliminate Carousel, because they could yield some interesting specimens. Merry Go Round is another predecessor to the Whirligig strain.

I would also eliminate all of the Z. marylandica strains for amateur breeding, because their chromosome number of 46 makes them incompatible with Z. elegans (which has a chromosome number of 24). The Profusions, Pinwheels, and Zaharas are all Marylandicas. If you wanted to do something different, you could breed Marylandicas by making various crosses between Profusions, Pinwheels, and Zaharas. I have not done that because none of the Marylandicas are very big in flower size or plant height. But the Marylandicas are relatively immune to Powdery Mildew, and that would be one reason for working with them. I personally have not found Powdery Mildew to be bad enough to keep me from enjoying my zinnias, and I use systemic fungicides to protect my breeders when Powdery Mildew threatens.

"'Persian Carpet' are another species if I remember correctly (?) "

Persian Carpet is Z. haageana, but it has the same chromosome number as Z. violacea (elegans), so should be crossable, but with some difficulty. l have tried it a bit, and the small stigmas and pollen florets of Persian Carpets have apparently kept me from getting a successful cross. But that is a cross of the sort that gave rise to the Whirligigs, so I wouldn't eliminate it as something you could try. Just expect some difficulty in getting a viable result. Incidentally, Z. peruviana is another species with 24 chromosomes, and has the possibility of yielding crosses with our Z. violaceas. I have also tried it, without success so far, but I plan to experiment with both Peruviana and Haageana in the future. However, I wouldn't recommend either species for beginner experimentation.

Feel free to ask any questions or make any comments. This message thread is all about communication.

ZM

Merry Christmas, everyone.

ZM - You probably already addressed this earlier, but could you refresh my memory on what you said, please?
Beta Jr has some yellow stripes, not only on the florets, but on a few guard petals. Do you think those stripes will be more prevalent on the plants coming from those seeds (as opposed to seeds from non-striped petals)? Unfortunately, I waited too long to take the pic and as the bloom aged the yellow striations seem to become less noticeable, so you can barely see anything except on the one floret closeup.

Also, just got this link off the Growing Tomatoes forum to an interesting article about plants developing sturdier stems in response to touch.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

"Do you think those stripes will be more prevalent on the plants coming from those seeds (as opposed to seeds from non-striped petals)? "

All of the seeds in a zinnia flowerhead are siblings, so they can and do differ genetically from each other. However, I don't know to what degree the genetics of the embryo might influence the phenotype of the petal that "belongs" to the embryo. There is some influence, because larger embryos require a larger seed case, and the seed case is a part of the petal. I think it would be worthwhile to save the seeds from the striped petals in a separately labeled container.

"...an interesting article about plants developing sturdier stems in response to touch."

Petting plants for stronger stems sounds plausible, and I think it is a good idea to have a fan blowing a breeze on young seedlings to "exercise them" for the same reason. Our Kansas winds probably contribute to thicker stems on my outdoor zinnias. My guess is that if you grew some zinnias in a space station under weightless conditions, and then brought them back to normal earth gravity, they would have weak stems that would sort of collapse. Somebody should do that. We should have zinnias growing in outer space. That would probably only cost a few million dollars. Considerably more than my zinnias in the basement.

Incidentally, this "basement zinnia" has some interesting up-curled petals.

I also like its apple-blossom pink coloration. Zinnias seem to have endless variation in their colors. Well, my zinnias are calling. I have over three dozen second-generation seedlings up now, some with true leaves, and I will be sowing some more green seeds from some interesting specimens this afternoon.

ZM

3 dozen F2s - how exciting! Yes, I like that apple-blossom pink color also. I was reading on another GW thread about what colors people especially liked in their gardens - that apple-blossom would be one for me, even though for myself personally I am NOT a 'pink' person. :)

I recently approached one of my gardening buddies to plant some of my F1s I gathered this summer. I could conceivably plant them all in the space I have, but I'm determined to put a good portion of the old garden area in buckwheat this next season to help rejuvenate it. Apparently, I'd already succeeded in piquing her interest, as she quickly whipped out her gardening catalogs to show me the zinnias she'd ordered! I'd mentioned before about certain varieties not being suitable for crossing with others, and she was trying to stick to my rather vague suggestions. I'll have to check more closely later and ask you about a couple of them. She still says she'll have room for more. :) Of course, it could make it difficult to make crosses from my garden with anything that might be growing in hers as she is a good half hour away from me, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. I'd just like to see what all the F1 crosses look like without having to wait another year. Meanwhile, I will keep my special cactus hybrids close to home.

Gotta say thanks again for getting me into this. It's a blast!

- Alex

Hi Alex,

"Of course, it could make it difficult to make crosses from my garden with anything that might be growing in hers as she is a good half hour away from me, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it."

If she is less than hour away, it would be feasible to take zinnia pollen from one garden and use it in the other. You could cross her zinnias onto yours and vice versa. When I first found my tubular "mutant" zinnia (E2) back in 2011, it was in my south garden and most of my breeder zinnias were in my north garden. The two gardens are over a hundred yards apart with the house, lawn, and driveway in between. So I did a lot of carrying pollen from E2 to the north garden.

To facilitate that, I used pollen "carriers". I started using one of those little square aspirin containers that have a sliding "drawer". I graduated to using a little contact lens container (I don't use contacts, and have no idea how I came in possession of that.) I could open and close it with one hand. Using either container, I could pick a dozen or more pollen florets from E2 and carry them in my pocket to the north garden and pollinate several breeders.

A picked zinnia floret is badly wilted in a couple of hours, but would be usable if you used it in less than a hour. A tiny moistened piece of paper towel in the container might extend the usable floret time. It's best if you pick the florets in the morning soon after they open.

This basement zinnia reminds me of a Bachelor's Button or Cornflower (Centaurea cyanus) flower form.

It looks rather like a Bachelor's Button, but is considerably larger. It would probably be possible to develop a strain of Bachelor's Button flowered zinnias, in a variety of single colors and color combinations, if there were a demand for that sort of thing. More later.

ZM

Happy New Year everyone,

It's the Cat Witching Hour and, not surprisingly, I am awake. The story of our lives now, especially in the winter. I wake up with 3 thoughts in my head: (1) there is no way I will be able to get back to sleep if I don't make a trip to the bathroom, (2) the fire is dying down, and unless I get up and throw a log on now, we will be forced to rebuild it in the morning in a cold stove (which, as anyone who builds many fires can tell you, is a whole lot more work without that base of hot coals), and (3) as soon as I stick so much as a toe out of this bed, I will awaken at least one cat. Well, there's no hope for it. Might as well ring a bell; one cat = all cats = partytime!
One happy note: it is 21 degrees outside, as opposed to the 10 or maybe lower degrees of last night. And a very Happy New Year to all.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" Or, are we witnessing a Razzle Dazzle breakthrough that will knock the petals off the zinnia industry? :) "

I wish. Actually, glowing zinnias are on my long-term list of goals. But I plan to become proficient in zinnia tissue culture first, and then start to study the genetic engineering techniques in earnest. There is ongoing work to produce and distribute glowing plants. However, I am a bit skeptical about the Glowing Plants Kickstarter Project. There has been giddy talk about glowing trees that would replace street lights. Bioluminescence occurs in many life forms, and genetic techniques have already succeeded in transferring bioluminescence from one life form to another. Glo Fish are genetically modified aquarium fish that fluoresce in several colors.

However, my goal for future genetically modified zinnias would be true light production in several colors, not just fluorescence. Although, fluorescence could make flowers have much more brilliant colors. Just like the laundry detergents that promise "whiter whites" use fluorescence.

My sleep cycles share your item 1. Propane central heat and no pets prevent items 2 and 3. I must say I enjoyed your Cat Witching Hour paragraph. Good writing.

I am starting the New Year with 72 second-generation hybrid zinnia seedlings, and I am still planting a few more. So far the Borg have not paid a visit. Knock on wood. More later.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Anyway, I look forward to seeing lots of pics of the 72 F2s. Wow! So many surprises to come.

Ninecrow - so what are you going to order?

I am thoroughly exhausted, and intend to go to sleep soon. Hopefully, I won't be entertaining you with any 4 AM essays this time. :) Snowing here, BTW.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

We got a light snow last night, maybe a quarter inch or so. Its cold today, and what little snow there is, isn't melting, even though the sky is clear and sunny.

"Not sure how much they'd glow under ordinary white fluorescents."

They would glow, but it wouldn't be so noticeable. Fluorescent things are best viewed in the dark with a black light, which contains mostly ultraviolet light. The fluorescent substance absorbs ultraviolet light and re-emits visible light.

"And is that true about laundry soap?"

It's true of most laundry detergents. That "whiter than white" effect is delivered by a blue-white fluorescent agent. Sunlight contains quite a lot of ultraviolet light, and the white garment that picks up a blue-white fluorescent agent in the laundry glows extra white in the sunlight. The white fiber reflects the normal white light from the sunlight, and extra blue-white light is added to it by the fluorescent dye from the detergent. If you have the opportunity to view your laundry in a dark room under a black light, you can see the effect very dramatically.

We cannot see in the ultraviolet spectrum, but some insects can and some flowers take advantage of that by reflecting ultraviolet light from areas of their petals. They may also employ fluorescent components to achieve that.

It just occurred to me that I probably should get a black light to inspect my zinnias with, to see if they have some ultraviolet fluorescence that I am unaware of. That just went onto my "to do" list.

" I look forward to seeing lots of pics of the 72 F2s. "

That number of second generation seedlings is now over a hundred, and growing daily. I ordered another chrome wire shelf unit to add to my indoor basement growing capacity. It should arrive later this week. In the meantime, I am having to cull some of my indoor zinnias, to stay within the confines of my existing 5 chrome wire shelving units.

I should cull my zinnias even if I have space for them, because some of them aren't suitable breeders. Single zinnias are pretty much an automatic cull, but this is a "wonky" single specimen that I will probably keep.

Being single, it lets you appreciate its "exotic" petals in more detail. l will probably develop a strain of single exotics, although that one might look better if its pollen florets were scabious florets instead. More later.

ZM

I see that F2 above has the tubular petals that you've been working on. Yeah, it probably would look better with a scabious cone - sort of plain at the moment. But you're teaching me to look beyond the immediate, and imagine the possibilities, so I will reserve judgement. "Wonky" - is that a real word? Sounds like something I would make up.

And now you've taught me a whole new thing about laundry detergent that I never knew. Huh. Though, actually, I did know about insects seeing other spectrums of light. Hey, that might be fun to take a black light on a long extension cord into the garden at night, just to see how things looked. Would it draw moths? And on that note, I ordered myself a couple of cool morning glory solar lights on 10 ft cords to line my Sunflower Paths I'm going to build this next season. I tested them to see how well they glowed, and they are radical!!! I am psyched about it.

I would have difficulty culling plants already flowering for me under lights. I think that's why I am still keeping Alpha and Beta going, even though I originally was going to compost them after the first flowering. Now they are both getting ready to open their 3rd blooms, and, as I mentioned to Mr Guy, I may just let them stay there till spring, though prune them down for manageability. Sigh. I am too soft-hearted.

- Alex

I've Just Planted Two Zinnia Seeds..... Can't Wait for Them to Come up, How Long Do They Take?

Zenman Please Will You Post Some More Zinnias an Snow?
Thanks

Hi NC,

"I've Just Planted Two Zinnia Seeds..... Can't Wait for Them to Come up, How Long Do They Take? "

It can take as long as 4 weeks if the soil is cool. If the soil is really warm, two to four days. The Benary's site (they are a respected German seedsman, producer of Benary's Giants and Zinnita F1 hybrids) recommend temperatures in the 68 F to 72 F range, which gives you a little slower germination time, but a little higher germination percentage.

By planting zinnia embryos, I have had zinnias up in one to two days. But following Benary's advice, it is probably better not to provide bottom heat, and just let them germinate at room temperature, which may take a bit longer, but give a little better germination percentage.

I think most commercial seeds are tested to have about 80% germination. In a limited situation like yours, I would probably plant several commercial seeds per pot and then thin them to the best looking seedling after they came up. When you plant just one seed, you are taking a chance that it may be one of the 20% that don't germinate. And if you have several seedlings, you can have the advantage of taking the "pick of the litter," by snipping out all but the best looking seedling. I wouldn't do that with choice breeder zinnia seeds, but with commercial seeds I don't mind planting too many and thinning them.

Another thing you could do with commercial seeds and limited growing space would be to pour your seeds out on a sheet of white paper and pick the best looking seeds to plant. There is some correlation between seed size and flower size, so picking the biggest seeds to plant could pay off with bigger flowers and a stronger plant.

"Please Will You Post Some More Zinnias an Snow? "

OK, but I will have to wait for some real snow. Our last snow was little more than a dusting, and it didn't even cover the grass. I have a chrome wire shelving unit here in my study beside my computer where I am typing now, and there is a shelf on it, level with the bottom of window, with some second generation zinnia seedlings growing on it. The window faces south, so the seedlings get some sunlight, as well as light from the fluorescent lights hanging over the shelf. Next real snow, I will snap a picture.

If you have questions about any of this, don't hesitate to ask. Let us know when your zinnias emerge. And pictures are always welcome.

ZM

Hi Alex,

" "Wonky" - is that a real word? "

It's a real word.

"Hey, that might be fun to take a black light on a long extension cord into the garden at night, just to see how things looked."

They now make inexpensive Black Light LED flashlights that use three standard alkaline AA batteries (the rechargeable AA batteries have slightly less voltage, and wouldn't work, so won't fit, as a safety factor.) I plan to use one of those black light flashlights to check out my indoor zinnias, as well as my outdoor zinnias this Summer.

"Would it draw moths?"

Most likely. My bug zapper uses fluorescent bulbs that emit both white light and ultraviolet light, so they noticeably light up my white shirts that have been laundered in detergent. I think my bug zapper is very beneficial in the garden, to kill moths that would lay eggs to produce cutworms, tomato hornworms and tomato fruit worms. I also put a pan of water underneath it to drown June Bugs or May Beetles, which would lay eggs to produce grub worms.

" I ordered myself a couple of cool morning glory solar lights on 10 ft cords to line my Sunflower Paths I'm going to build this next season."

I can't wait until next Summer when you can show us pictures of your Sunflower Paths. Sounds like a very cool idea.

"I would have difficulty culling plants already flowering for me under lights."

I have difficulty culling indoor blooming zinnias, too. But in my case, it needs to be done, so I do it. More later.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Still in the single digits here, but the snow stopped.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

I agree with you that a headband magnifier is more relevant than a blacklight flashlight. I use my headband magnifier daily.

On a different subject, do you notice any green stuff growing on the top of the soil or medium in your pots that you are growing Alpha and Beta in? Some of my 3-inch square pots get a green stuff growing in them, and it is always harmful to the zinnia in the pot. I don't know whether the harm is simply competition for nutrients and/or water, or if the green stuff emits something to harm the competition.

As I have mentioned in the past, I use Physan 20 in a lot of my plant water and Physan 20 is billed as a disinfectant, sanitizer, deodorizer, fungicide, algaecide and virucide. That's pretty inclusive, and you would think that the algaecide part would apply to the green stuff.

Physan 20 is described as biodegradable, which is a good thing, because that means it won't destroy the soil microbes in your garden soil if you transplant a plant that has Physan 20 in its rootball into the garden. But I think that implies that the Physan starts losing its strength essentially immediately after you mix it with water to use it. I don't know the exact mechanism by which it loses its strength, or how fast the decline in its effectiveness goes. But for the first few days, at least, the Physan 20 keeps my seedling pot clean of pretty much everything. But as the decline progresses, I see the appearance of a single colony of green stuff, which is probably a colony of algae. This picture shows the onset of an apparent algae colony in one of my pots.

I am wondering if you have seen any of the green growths, algae or lichen, in any of your pots. And, if so, do you do anything about it? Or does it appear to be harmful to the plant in the pot? I use Physan 20 a lot, and I need to research how fast it loses its strength. I suspect that it starts to decline in effectiveness immediately upon being dissolved in water, until it reaches a threshold at which things like algae can live.

I need to research exactly what is happening and how fast, so I can come up with some rule of thumb about how soon a re-application needs to be made. My guess is that oxygen in the air or dissolved in the water reacts with the Physan to form an inactive byproduct. But that is just a guess. I'll do some research on the subject of Physan 20 degradation. In the meantime, I wonder if "green stuff" has been a problem for you. More later.

ZM

And now, for the first time, a rare pic of the illusive black zinnia. Not a good pic, I know, but she moved.

- Alex

Hi woodnative,

"...when you do a first cross of a scabious type and another typical zinnia is the scabious type flower dominant or recessive or more complex than that."

The scabious florets seem to be dominant over the usual fuzzy yellow starfish florets. Other components of the flower form can be influenced greatly by the non-scabious partner. There are many ways the flower form can vary and still have scabious florets. The guard petals can be lengthened considerably to create a flower form that is similar to echinaceas.

The guard petals can become extremely large compared to the central scabious center, giving the appearance of a water lily.

The more moderate guard petal lengths and proportions can give a variety of appearances in the Echinacea flowered range. The guard petals can curl upwards.

Or they can angle downwards.

And the guard petals can be so short as to be not visible, or they can be absent altogether, to give a bloom that is essentially all scabious florets.

In extreme cases that can produce a bloom that is almost a spherical ball.

There seems to be no end to the number of different looks you can get from crosses with the scabious zinnias and other zinnias. And don't forget the F2 and beyond generations. You can cross different scabious hybrids with each other. You can get some complex results doing that. And you can backcross your hybrids to original scabious zinnias as well.

ZM

Hi Alex,

A black zinnia in the shape of a cat? How did you manage that? But seriously, we do need some black zinnias, just to have companions for a white zinnia like this current indoor specimen.

It has fairly wide petals with a lot of informal arrangement, including a fair amount of "waviness". I get a slight hint of an iris look, which makes me think that extra wide petals, and fewer of them, could yield zinnias that looked very iris-like.

I have been on the lookout for extra dark purple or cerise zinnias, and I will continue to look for that, and breed for darker zinnias. There was once a little Cupid zinnia named "Black Ruby", and it had a very dark purple color that looked very near to black in yellowish incandescent light. I think that a very dark purple like that could look near-to-black if it were crossed with a dark yellow zinnia. I now have an appetite for a black zinnia. More later.

ZM

My present two little plants are looking a little like they'd appreciate it if I'd turn up the heat upstairs. Or maybe they just needed a drink. :)

Temps will fall to minus 7 on Monday, they say, but the good news is that they're predicting a warm up to just above freezing in another week. It will be very welcome.

- Alex

Hi NC,

"I Have a Seedling!!!!! ***YAY***"

Congratulations. Your zinnia seedling is probably growing at a more northerly latitude than any of ours. I believe that London is farther north than our Niagara Falls. But warm ocean currents give England a surprisingly mild climate for such a far north place. How much sunshine do you get this time of year?

It was cold and overcast here today. Every now and then one of my zinnia seedlings will die for no apparent reason. I am not sure I know the reason why, so it is a bit of a mystery. I theorize that strange genetic combinations are the cause, but that is sort of guesswork. This is one of my zinnias with a strange flower form.

The flower is just plain ugly by most standards. In my attempts to cross it with other zinnias, I failed to find either pollen or stigmas inside its "petals", so apparently this zinnia will be unable to have progeny. In which case, I guess I should be glad that it isn't really nice looking. Keep us posted about your zinnia seedling. I really wonder what its flower will look like.

ZM

Hi Alex,

"After all these years, I still find the sprouting of those little green living things from some dry dead looking bit of matter, a matter of awe and joy. "

I feel the same way. I think it is amazing how little strands of DNA can control the many forms of life, and I wonder about the codes that are contained in zinnia DNA. I also wonder about prehistoric zinnias, and their DNA codes. I read somewhere that the DNA contains codes for genes and also many code fragments of ancient genes that are no longer active.

I wonder if it is sometimes possible for those code fragments to come together to re-create lost prehistoric genes. Only a very few hundred years ago zinnias were just an unimpressive little violet wildflower. I think it is remarkable that so much zinnia diversity has been created in such a relatively small time span. I wonder if that little Zinnia violacea wildflower had some surprising prehistoric ancestors. I remain impressed that zinnias are full of surprises.

" My present two little plants are looking a little like they'd appreciate it if I'd turn up the heat upstairs. Or maybe they just needed a drink. :) "

I suspect your two zinnia plants look better than some of mine. How big are the pots that yours are currently in? One of my tubular zinnias died recently, for no apparent reason. I guess I will perform an "autopsy" on it to see if I can find any cause. I am concerned that my zinnias may not be receiving enough light. I may try misting some of them with a weak sugar solution to see if they respond to that. More later.

ZM

ZM - condolences on your tubular zinnia loss. Maybe some of the hybrids do have a built-in expiration date, after all. As you don't have the space to keep all your crosses going indefinitely, there's no way of testing others for this; though it would be interesting to see the results.

As it turns out, mine just needed a drink of water. And it is possible that it's just a tad cold upstairs for them. Actually, they wouldn't even have the benefit of that heat right now, except that we have to run the propane heater up there anyway to protect the plumbing (which some bright person once upon a distant time decided to locate on the west side of the house; the side that gets the prevailing wind.)

While I was up there, I made the decision to cut both the primary seed heads. I've been gathering green seeds now for quite a while, and have already plucked all the guard petals by this time. I was remembering asking you back in the summer if you ever harvested entire seed heads and let them finish drying inside away from rains, birds and other hazards. You said you didn't do that, I think, but what the hey - thought I'd give it a try, since I'd already saved a number of seeds from both blossoms. Plus they have their second blossoms still going, and thirds on the way.

After I cut them, I paused to examine them more closely with my new Optivisor (- loving it!), and saw that there were many of the smaller non-petal seeds which seemed pretty obviously plumped-up. I took one of Beta's and cut its seed casing off, and sure enough, there was a lovely, healthy-looking embryo.

Well, what could I do? I couldn't throw that perfect little life out, so...I planted it, of course! Or rather, I am pre-germinating it. The F2 generation has begun! Oh, and as info for the curious mind: Alpha and Beta were both started on August 15. Alpha bloomed on Oct 23 and Beta bloomed on November 6. This is Beta's seed.

- Alex

Well it seems that just two others, Alex and ZM, are interested in Zinnias on this site
I almost feel like I'm intruding
But I'm going to start growing Zinnias soon so I thought I'd make some friends and get some advice :)

I'm a beginner gardener and new to zinnias but I want to breed them because it takes so little time

No, it's not just the two of us, as you will see Ninecrow in the UK is up there and Woodnative. Plus there are a bunch of others who will probably return once spring gets here. Can't speak for anyone else but me, but it's mega-cold where I'm at - minus 6 degrees F this morning. I've only got a few plants going inside under lights, and normally wouldn't have that, since I don't generally get my seeds going until March. But I got hooked on the zinnia breeding thing, and wanted to continue the dialog without a big gap of time in between.

It will be that much more interesting with some new bodies talking, so stick around, New Zealand. BTW - what's your weather like there?

- Alex

Hi Squishy,

I see Alex has already welcomed you to this message thread. You are "officially" welcomed to Garden Web, and to this zinnias message thread. Like Alex, I am also curious about your weather in New Zealand, and pretty much everything else as well. New Zealand seems like an exotic place to us Midwestern American types, especially since you are having Summer while we are having Winter. It's cold here in Kansas, too, but not nearly as cold as Alex is having it. Sometimes I feel like she is living in the Arctic, and wouldn't be at all surprised if her weather is sometimes colder than places in Alaska.

Alex is right that I started this thread "ages back". This is a link to the original message thread, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias. Back then I was living in Maine, which has cold weather comparable to Alex's weather, and I went by the name MaineMan. Since then we moved to east central Kansas, where the Winters are a bit milder and the Summers considerably hotter.

After the move to Kansas, I considered changing my username to "KanMan", but I rejected that because it sounded a little bit like I must spend a lot of time in the restroom. I picked ZenMan, because my philosophy is somewhat Zen-like. And it sounds like "zinnia" without being so specialized.

But enough about me. Lets hear some more about you and New Zealand. And your zinnia plans.

ZM

New Zealand is currently having a very hot summer, the hottest I ever remember
I'm melting but my garden's enjoying it, especially the sunflowers

At the moment the weather here is super dry and sunny, but during the other seasons we get frequent rain, and in winter a little frost but nothing too severe. It's so mild here I might even be able to grow winter zinnias outside!

Whiriligs sound really cool
I'd certainly like to get some for interesting genetics
I don't think any are sold in new zealand and I'm not sure what customs would say, but I have some african violet seeds ordered from overseas and if they get through I'll try for zinnias :)

As for my zinnia plans I thought I'd start off with some useful traits
I'm gonna get as many seeds out of my zinnias as I can, plant a bunch and then select for speed of germination and growth, healthy plants, small size (so there's room in my garden - it's small) and pollen and seed production
I can start selecting for flower traits later when I have a bigger zinnia collection :)

It's very nice to be welcomed and to meet you both!

I'm curious - what traits do you select for?

Hi Alex,

Wow! That's fast germination. Beta Jr may be special. What is that pink environment that germination occurred in? All of my paper towels are white. Or is that just a lighting effect? Incidentally, good close-up photography.

ZM

Hi Squishy,

"I don't think any [Whirligigs] are sold in new zealand and I'm not sure what customs would say, but I have some african violet seeds ordered from overseas and if they get through I'll try for zinnias :) "

Getting seeds from outside into New Zealand is going to be a challenge. Swallowtail Garden Seeds lists New Zealand as one of the countries they can't ship to. Ironically, they can ship to Australia. Just out of curiosity, do you know whether people in Australia can ship seeds to you in New Zealand?

" ...plant a bunch and then select for speed of germination and growth, healthy plants, small size (so there's room in my garden - it's small) and pollen and seed production "

There are several zinnia varieties that have compact plants, including Dreamland and Magellans. The Thumbelinas have very small plants, and start to bloom when they are only 3 inches tall and eventually become a 6-inch tall bush, with maybe an 8-inch spread. The Zinnitas are an F1 hybrid with a plant height of about 7 inches. Those two varieties could be the basis for some very compact zinnia plants.

"I'm curious - what traits do you select for? "

I select for novel flower forms, interesting color combinations, and "nice" plant habits. This coming Spring I am going to be selecting for larger blooms, with a goal of getting 8-inch or larger blooms. And I will be looking for extra dark colors as a step toward getting "black" zinnias as a new color.

One of my novel flower form objectives is to have each "petal" be a flowerlet unto itself. Several recent specimens have represented significant progress in that direction.

And I have a Razzle Dazzle flower form (pictured elsewhere) whose size and color range I hope to increase significantly.

I will be on the lookout for seed sources for you in New Zealand. Apparently New Zealand has even tougher customs regulations than Australia. More later.

ZM

Yeah, I was surprised at the speed of germination. Beta took longer to sprout than Alpha, but otherwise seems the superior plant in vigor and form; hopefully that has been passed on to its progeny.

Mister Guy - how's it going? How is your indoor garden doing?

- Alex

EXCITEMENT: My zinnia seeds have arrived!!! :D
Now how do I germinate them?
My dad said I should put them on wet paper towels

Also, do the elegans and angustifolia varieties have the same number of chromosomes?

Hi Squishy,

"My zinnia seeds have arrived!!! :D Now how do I germinate them? My dad said I should put them on wet paper towels "

The paper towel method, which Alex just demonstrated above, is for pregermination. That can make sense for growing zinnias indoors or for germinating old seed that have a low germination expectancy. Your seeds are fresh, presumably, and should germinate about 80%, so there is no need for pre-germination.

You probably intend to grow your zinnias outside in the ground, so you will plant them in the ground where you want them to grow. There are probably instructions for doing that on the back of the seed packets you have received. In case there isn't, this is what it says on the back of one of my packets of Burpee's zinnias:

SOW in average soil in full sun after danger of frost. Sow seeds about 12" apart and cover with 1/4" of fine soil. Firm lightly and keep evenly moist. Seedlings emerge in 7-10 days. Thin to stand 18-24" apart when seedlings are 1-2" tall.

Since it is hot in New Zealand, your seedlings may appear sooner than that, perhaps in 2 or 3 days. And the heat makes it all the more important to keep your seedbeds moist until the seedlings emerge, and afterwards as well. Sprinkle your seedbeds daily, with a gentle sprinkler of some sort, so the water doesn't disturb the soil the seeds are in.

"Also, do the elegans and angustifolia varieties have the same number of chromosomes? "

They do not. Elegans has 24 chromosomes and Angustifolia has 22 chromosomes. A cross between the two can yield interspecies hybrids with 23 chromosomes, if the cross is successful. They could be nice plants, but with an odd number of chromosomes, they would be incapable of successful meiosis, and hence couldn't produce viable pollen grains or daughter cells, and that would prevent fertile seed production.

The only way you could get seeds and progeny from such a cross would be to double their number of chromosomes from 23 to 46 (an even number) which would allow viable seed formation. Doubling the chromosomes would be done with Colchicine or a similar chemical, which would require hazardous substance handling (best left to professionals). That process is how the Zinnia marylandica cultivars were created, including the Profusions, Pinwheels, and Zaharas.

I am curious, what varieties of zinnias did you receive? And from whom?

ZM

So what did you buy - I'm curious, too.

- Alex

When the seedlings come up how will I tell the difference between them and any weeds that grow?
My garden likes to produce weeds at a colossal rate
Also how much space will the full grown zinnia plant need? I have a small garden
If I run out of space, is it possible to grow zinnias in pots?

Alex: I have an iPhone! I'll take a photo of my garden pre-zinnias
How do I stick it on here?
I know how to put it on photobucket
Is there some kinda html code I use to post it?

- Alex

Hi Squishy,

"When the seedlings come up how will I tell the difference between them and any weeds that grow?"

This is a picture of a couple of zinnia seedlings just after they have emerged. If you look closely, you can see a few very tiny weed seedlings, as well.

It can be a little tricky telling a zinnia seedling from a weed. The zinnias have two cotyledons (seed leaves), but so does about half of the plant kingdom. That is why it is a good idea to plant your zinnia seeds in a straight line. That way the zinnia seedlings will be on a straight line among the weeds, which will be somewhat randomly spaced. That will help you distinguish which are the zinnias and which are the weeds.

"Also how much space will the full grown zinnia plant need? I have a small garden. "

That depends entirely on the variety of zinnia. Thumbelinas and Zinnitas only grow about 6 or 7 inches tall, so each plant could need a comparable amount of space. Benary's Giants grow 4 feet tall and would need 2 to 4 feet of space, depending on whether you wanted to crowd them or not. Some cactus flowered zinnias can grow to 6 feet tall if they are a bit crowded. so you might want to give them 3 feet or more of space. Zinnias will tolerate quite a bit of crowding, but they then get into a height race with each other, competing and reaching for sunshine.

"If I run out of space, is it possible to grow zinnias in pots? "

Yes, with adequate pot size and a good potting mix. A single Thumbelina plant or Zinnita plant might do well in a 5-inch or a 6-inch pot. Large zinnia varieties would need a much larger pot per plant. Zinnias resent becoming root bound, and they develop large root systems in open ground that are as big or bigger than their mature above-ground bushes. Their pot volume should be comparable to their bush volume.

"My garden likes to produce weeds at a colossal rate "

So does mine. Declare war on your weeds with a good sharp hoe and a companion hand hoe. And pull weeds that are too close to your good plants. If they are really close, you can snip them at ground level with scissors or a hand pruner to avoid upsetting the root system of the crowded zinnia.

ZM

Thanks for all the advice ZM, I'm gonna get planting today :D

I don't know what it's like in New Zealand, Squishy, except what I see in the hobbit movies, but let me tell you, the Zenman's garden looks like weeds are afraid to grow there. His garden is so clean, if I lived a little closer, I'd sneak over in the dead of night and throw a few weed seeds in just so he'd actually have to work that hoe.

BTW - Squishy, you never told us what seeds you bought. As ZM said, the space needed does depend on the variety you've planted. And, as we've demonstrated in past posts, you can grow zinnias in pots, so there's no stopping you.

Meanwhile, this is what it looks like at my place...

- Alex

Hi everyone,

Since this message thread has become so long, we are continuing this over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 30 for a fresh start.

Hope to see you all over there.

ZM