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gabro14

Ponytail palm (Nolina Recurvata)

gabro14
17 years ago

Hi all,

I'm new to this bonsai forum. I will soon be receiving an 8-10" ponytail palm. I really don't want it to get much taller than that. I would like the leaves to grow, but it's already an old and well-established plant, so if they don't grow due to my hindering of the trunk growth, so be it. As for hindering the trunk growth (vertically, not horizontally..I like thick trunks), I am going to plant it in a 10X7" diameter pot that is 3" high. Do you think if I keep it rootbound in this pot the trunk will not get any taller? Also, should I withhold fertilizer or is that mostly for leaf growth? Bottom line is...I want my tree to remain the same height (or only grow a few inches). However, I don't want to keep cutting the head off to do so. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Gabi

Comments (32)

  • lucy
    17 years ago

    Hi, ponytail palms are called Beaucarna recurvata (I don't know what 'Nolina' is). Now, keeping it rootbound will just kill it. What you want to do is turn it into a bonsai, and keep it healthy, if small, so when you next repot, trim the roots by about 1/3, but do use a pot that's large enough to fit everything comfortably. Stuffing the rootball into a little pot (right away) is not how it's done. Next time you repot after the first one (in about 2 years), do the same root pruning, and that's how you keep it smaller. The foliage however, while it will gradually 'shrink' to smaller leaves over time (years) by not 'upping' the pot size much, but pruning roots, will always keep its natural growth pattern, which is unlike other trees of course, and you may just have to either be very patient about the top's growth, or accept that it will be out of proportion to the trunk (in the end). It's not an ideal bonsai subject to say the least, and definitely not one for a bonsai 'beginner'. Withholding fertilizer is like keeping it rootbound - unhealthy and not a good idea. You can give it somewhat less than you normally might, but a little more often, however, you shouldn't just not do it at all, or your plant will die.

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Thank you Lucy. That was very helpful advice. I'm definitely in the "beginner" category, but the reason I bought this plant is because I had inherited one from a dear family member and kept it for several years. So I have some experience with it, but only in bonsai form. I unfortunately lost that one when I had someone else take care of it when I was away for a long vacation. By the way, ponytail palm is called both 'beaucarnea' recurvata and 'nolina' recurvata. It's just an alternate name (I've actually seen 'nolina' used more frequently).
    Thanks again for your great advice,
    Gabi

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Randi, if you're around, I'd love to know what you think about turning this plant into a bonsai.

    I've seen many of your posts and pics of turning your jades into bonsai, and it appears as though you take the jade right out of the large pot it's growing in and put it directly into a bonsai container without sizing down gradually (I'm just assuming this from the before and after pics...but I'm not sure how much time goes by between the before and after!). I'm wondering if this is, in fact, how you do it, or if instead you gradually go down in pot sizes over a few years.

    Your help is much appreciated,
    Gabi

  • lucy
    17 years ago

    I'm not Randi, but I will say that people can do that more often with jades because a) they have small root systems in general, and b) they already look like 'trees', so the effect will be more instantaneous anyhow, but I would go in stages and/or rethink using that tree for a bonsai (seeing as there are SO many others to use that are more treelike to begin with).

  • lucy
    17 years ago

    I was referring to the jade with that comment. You want your tree's trunk to be fat, which is of course a bonsai 'must' except for a few styles, but you also want it to be short. However its nature is to grow long leaves after first reaching up a few inches before curving over, which would make it look very disproportionate over a short trunk, and I simply don't know whether continuous cutting of the top, never mind the roots, will achieve better proportions or just a mess. And if you want to follow your own advice about fertilizer, go right ahead, but you asked, so I answered. OK, maybe some plants (especially cacti and succulents) can get by with a lot less (or no) fert. for some time, but it's not recommended.

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    I'm not saying I won't use fertilizer, I was just pointing something out in a very lighthearted way. And I was very appreciative of your advice. I was just using an experience of mine to show...
    Ah, nevermind. I don't want to repeat myself. Thanks for the advice.

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Just wanted to post a pic of my ponytail palm. I just love it! I gave it a little haircut because I didn't like all the curly leaves all over the place...I like it to be neat. There are actually 4 "offshoot branches" coming out of the trunk (not sure what those are called, but I know cutting the head off the top forced those branches to come out of the sides). I never saw 4, only 2. Just out curiosity, does anyone know what would happen in terms of growth if I cut a branch off?

    Here it is:

    {{gwi:2516}}

    I may trim the leaves a little more so it looks even more like a tree. I just trimmed the roots about halfway...any suggestions as to when my next root pruning should be?

    Thanks for looking :)
    Gabi

  • mike412
    17 years ago

    Hello there!

    I am new to this forum but not new to bonsai. Gabro14, I love your ponytail! It's gorgeous. It really looks like a real tree with that little guy sitting below. Well done kiddo. Anyhoo, I think you did a great job on your little haircut. To each his own, some like the leaf growth to be strangly and long, and others like it neat and shorter; it's your plant, so you do what YOU want! But just keep in mind that that parts you cut will stay blunt ended, they'll never be pointy again. Cutting even more would give it a more even look, but thats up to you. I don't own any ponytails, but I am very familair with them. I read your other posts on this topic. I like what you said about not going by the books all the time! You never know what will work for some plants regardless of what the experts say. Well said my friend. As far as your questions, I'm not sure about cutting the branches. I would assume that area would callus up and that's that. But there's also a possibility that it would force more growth but I'm not sure where the growth would come from.Maybe someone else who knows more about pony's will tell ya, although it seems like nobody wants to help! You only got one view from one person, so I thought I'd try to help ya out a little. On your pruning question, let's see, If it were my plant I'd trim the roots bout 1/3 to 1/2 inches in the Spring. Some people believe in doing this process over years and years and years. But not everyone wants to be a bonsai pro and make it their lifelong hobby. So if you're just interested in this one tree and don't plan on making bonsai a hobby, don't go buying books and joining clubs, that's a waste of time in my book! SO, don't be afraid to prune the roots, but I would wait 'til springtime in your neck of the woods. That's my 7 cents worth! GL with your ponytail Gabro14.

    Regards,
    Mike

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Thanks Mike :)
    Thats just what I wanted to hear! I will trim again in the Spring, I guess around March or April. I'm glad you chimed in. And thanks for the compliments on my plant. It's such a nice addition to my home.

    You're right about me not wanting to become a bonsai pro! I just wanted this one plant. I'm not interested in bonsai..it seems like a great and fulfilling hobby but unfortunately I lack patience, which seems to be required for the hobby!

    Again, thanks so much for your helpful response.
    Gabi

  • bonsai_audge
    17 years ago

    Hello Gabi!

    It's quite neat to see your ponytail palm. If you're not interested in keeping this as a bonsai, then I don't see the need to worry about trying to make it "tree-like." They can make great indoor plants on their own right, so what's the both of attempting to impose an image onto it?

    I'm not too sure if I would side with Mike on the issue of the root pruning. I don't find that taking your time with this necessary equates to having to becoming heavily involved with bonsai. Even though I'm not too familiar with this species, I do not see the value in rushing ahead with root pruning [to make a point that you don't want to bonsai it]. Bonsai are first and foremost plants, so techniques developed are done so in response to how plants themselves respond. I personally would try to conduct things patiently. Even if you don't want to train it as a bonsai, you still want it to live for a good long time.

    -Audric

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Hi Audric,

    Thanks for commenting on my post. I think you misunderstood what I said. I wasn't saying that I don't want to make the ponytail a bonsai, I was saying that I am not interesting in Bonsai as a hobby (because of my lack of patience). But if you read my first post, I stated that I want to make this ponytail into a bonsai. I just want this one bonsai plant, that's all.

    I want to make this into a bonsai for 3 reasons. One, because I don't want it growing to the ceiling. Two, because I like the way it looks as a bonsai. Three (and most important), when my mother passed away her ponytail palm was the only plant I took from the house....it died when I left it with someone for a long period of time while on vacation, and I wanted another one just like it and I wanted it in the same exact pot. I hope those reasons make sense. And this is why I was just asking for some basic info on how to keep it small.

    I appreciate your advice though. I don't want to rush with the root pruning...the last thing I want is for this plant to die because of me rushing. But I also don't want to wait 2 years to prune again. I'm just trying to keep my plant from growing too big. I'm trying to find answers about when and how often to root prune, and everyone tells me different things! The internet has all different info, and my searches on this forum all tell me different things (which is good...it's good to have differing opinions!). But as Mike insinuated (and as I've read in other bonsai posts), it seems like when someone has a question about their bonsai, they are told to go join clubs and buys tons of books. I think that's impractical and costly if you're just looking to get a little info on one plant.

    So, if you disagree with Mike as to when to root prune, what do you suggest?
    Thanks for your time,
    Gabi

  • bonsai_audge
    17 years ago

    Gabi, it seems that there may have been some more confusion on my part, so I apologize for that. I don't quite disagree with Mike's suggestion to prune in spring, but I am still not sure as to what he meant by "trim the roots bout 1/3 to 1/2 inches." Now as I re-read it, I'm beginning to believe that he meant to "trim the roots by about 1/3-1/2 of an inch" as opposed to "about 1/3 [so that they are] 1/2 of an inch." It did not make much sense (originally), so the only part I took from it was "trim it to about 1/2 of an inch" which seemed extremely hasty.

    Since your goal isn't as much to develop as it is to maintain, I wouldn't view long in-between periods as taxing on your patience. After all, it's already in its final pot and thus the intermittent periods aren't really keeping you from anything; they're simply maintenance tasks.

    As for my understanding of bonsai and their size - they are not kept small because of being rootbound (as Lucy mentioned). Of course, being in a pot affects the rate at which they grow, but you're not going to be able to halt its growth to keep it at a set height. Bonsai can put on a fair amount of new growth on a regular basis, but this is refined, perhaps trimmed back, and wired into position as to enhance the shape of the bonsai. Despite this, bonsai still get larger and larger over the years, and may require a re-design to address the new size. "Rejuvenating" pruning can be carried out, in which branches are cut back, past the "goal" length to allow room for new growth.

    In such a case as the ponytail palm, cutting back overlong new growth (not the leaves, but the branches) will keep its size in check for the most part. Cutting a branch (in mid-section, i.e. not to its base) will result in similar offshoots as you see coming off the "trunk."

    Check out this link. The person talks about their 20-year-old ponytail palm and how all they simply do is water and change the soil occassionally.

    -Audric

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Audric,

    Thank you for re-reading the posts. I appreciate you putting the time and effort to understand my "issue" and help me with it. Thanks for the link...it's nice to know that he considers it a highly care-free palm (and I guess he would know...he's had it for 20 years!)

    You're right about what Mike said about root pruning. It does sound a bit confusing. But I think he meant to trim the roots to "by about 1/3-1/2 of an inch", like you said.

    I see what you're saying about maintenance. I was just worried because by the advice I was given, it seemed like it would have taken YEARS until my plant finally made it to the bonsai pot! I would have been better off buying a ponytail palm that was already bonsai and in tree-like form (there are a bunch on ebay).

    Again, thank you for your advice and your wonderful explanation. I guess I will have to "behead" it when it gets too tall. I was hoping that continuous trimming of the roots would halt its growth, but I guess not :)

    By the way, if I continued to prune every Spring, when do I stop pruning (in other words, what is the shortest the roots can be in order to still have a healthy plant?). I guess the roots continue to grow as the plant grows, so I'm assuming if I trim 1/3 or 1/2 of an inch off each Spring, the roots will grow back to the same size each year?

    Thanks Audric (and thank you for being so nice to a 'beginner').
    Gabi

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Oh, my error. What I meant about Mike's post was I think he meant trim the roots BY about 1/3-1/2 of an inch (not TO 1/2-1/3 of an inch). That would definitely be too hasty!

  • lucy
    17 years ago

    I disagree with that (1/2-1/3 of an inch), because the standard advice in bonsai is to trim the roots by 1/3-1/2 of their entire length. You don't nibble away at them when repotting, but cut them back properly.

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    This is all semantics. That's what I was planning on doing. I guess it was confusing that he used the term "inches". My first cut was 1/2 of the roots. I was intending to cut the roots by 1/2 again in Spring (in other words, cut half of the roots). Thank you for straightening that out.

  • rjj1
    17 years ago

    Hi Gabi

    I like your little ponytail.

    These are tuff little plants. You could cut all the roots off and it would still be fine, but I'm not saying you should.

    I've purchased 14 - 20 inch diameter trunks that were cut off about 2 foot tall that had no roots at all and they grew just fine.

    randy

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Thanks Randy :)
    Good, so I'll just keep cutting 1/2 the roots each spring. I'm hoping at some point there won't be a lot of roots...that way the growth can possibly be stunted.
    Gabi

  • manofsnow
    17 years ago

    Hi,

    I have a Ponytail Palm that is very similar to the one that is above. My question is in regard to watering. I understand that these are very hearty trees that don't require much watering. I check the soil every day and only water it when the soil is dry (about once every few days). When I water it, water usually comes right out the bottom of the pot. I have two questions.

    1) Am I watering the plant too frequently and with too much water?
    2) Can I plug the hole on the bottom of the pot or is that necessary for drainage.

    Sorry for the ignorant questions, but this is my first plant, ever.

    Thanks in advance :)

  • lucy
    17 years ago

    Hi Manofsnow (cool name!) - Do you mind if I just mention something for the last poster and then get to yours? Gabro - your cutting half the roots every year won't result in no roots, but (hopefully) do what bonsais should, and that is to develop and shallow, but wide pad rich with young white feeder roots that can be put into a bonsai pot (vs e.g. a flowerpot). And once that develops, you will only need to trim occasionally and not hack off so much each time. OK MOS - Watering every 2-3 is way too often, especially in winter, every 2-3 months is closer to what they like it in winter, and every 2-3 wks (maybe) in spring/summer. They're effectively succulents so really don't need much at all, though I suppose maybe once more in winter (indoors) wouldn't hurt. Never plug drain holes (why would you want to anyhow?) as they do serve a vital purpose. Also, don't let plants sit in drain water (in saucers) or roots will rot - raise the pot on stones in the saucer, fill it with water to below the stones' tops and use a wide saucer - that will be your humidity tray and is a great idea for most plants (more effective than spraying them). When you do water, do a decent job so all the roots get a drink.

  • manofsnow
    17 years ago

    Lucy,

    Thanks for the quick response. You've prevented me from putting liquidtite on the bottom of it. :)

    I have a tree and pot much like gabro14 has above. What kind of saucer do you recomend and is one really necessary since I don't need to water it nearly as often as I am? I went to Home Depot today and all the saucers they had are round and like gabro14, my pot is rectangular.

  • hooks
    17 years ago

    for the tropical trees humidity is more important than watering. the tropical environments where these tree grow and thrive naturally is a very humid climate. when choosing a humidity tray find one that accents the tree and the pot. the best judge of this is you. If the pot is rectange you kinda want to stick with a rectangle tray. dont however be afraid to experiment maybe get an oversized tray and grow small water plants or maybe make a rock island on the tryay covered in moss. the most important thing is keep the tree healthy and make it visually appealing to you.

  • lucy
    17 years ago

    Hooks, with all due respect, where do you get your info? Humidity is very important to tropicals, but so is watering, just like with any other plants. Sheesh.

  • hooks
    17 years ago

    I was not telling them to stop watering and i believe you already told them an appropriate way to water the tree. In tropical environment humidity is present every day but rain is not as constant. when soil is in a pot as im sure you know it will retain water more than the ground which has much more soil to absorb the moisture. This is the reason watering is less frequent. I'm afraid you may have misunderstood me, ido not mean that watering is unimportant. I only mean that climate is the most important factor to plants. If your plant is in the inappropriate climate in the end it wont matter if watering is correct. Ex. Junipers die indoors, Ficus die outdoors in low temperatures, most tropicals die in a humidity deprived situation. With humididty they thrive. Personally with my 7 tropicals i fill humidity trays more often than i water them. take the information how you wish i was only offering a little help.

  • lucy
    17 years ago

    Oh, OK, no problem! And I do agree lots of humidity really helps with tropicals - I just didn't know where you were coming from and there's so much nonsense doled out sometimes.

  • gabro14
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Hooks,
    I totally understood what you were saying, and it's a shame that lately people have been bashing you for trying to help out other people. Nobody claims to be an expert on here...this is a friendly forum where opinions are shared and should not be taken as fact. Therefore, ANYONE should be able to share their opinion. The person asking the question should be the judge of what info they will listen to.

    Anyway, I agree with you Hooks. With most of my tropicals, I keep a humidity tray and usually have to fill it every 1-2 days. So I understood that you didn't mean it was more important than watering, but it's something that's done more frequently.

    Manofsnow,
    I bought a rectangular tray for my ponytail and had no problem finding it. I got it from Ebay and it was pretty inexpensive, but I'm sure you can get one from a nursery. Just make sure it's a good size...it should be a good deal bigger than your pot so that the water can rise up to the foliage. I think my pot is a little smaller than 7X10 and my tray is maybe 10X13 (something like that). But looking back at my ebay purchase it was an 11" tray, so it's not that much bigger than my pot...I would've gone bigger but my plant stand couldn't fit it. Anyway, I posted a link to a 13" tray sold on ebay. If you want a different size just check out his other items. The trays look gray but they are actually black. Good luck.

    Gabi

    Here is a link that might be useful: Rectangular Humidity Tray

  • hooks
    17 years ago

    Gabi
    Yes it is a shame. i have always been one to pass on expierience and liten to others information. We are always being exposed to new information and if we stay alert there is always much to be learned. I have seen published books that contradict one another as well, its part of the process. What very few people realize is that there are sometimes more than one way to do things, and it is unwise to jump to the conclusion that sinse your way works another way is impossible. I've seen people say that tropicals need a gritty mix yet if you've ever been to a tropical environment the ground is a very rich dark soil that usually remains on the soggy side. I say to each his own but let information be passed without such a damning attitude towards others. My 2 cents worth. Good luck and happy growing.
    Tim

  • lucy
    17 years ago

    Hooks, you're talking about tropicals growing in the ground, but things are vastly different in pots, which is why growing bonsai is such a one-step-forward, two-back kind of thing, and why there's such a large amount of disagreement in certain areas. However, some aspects of growing have long been 'proven' to work, and a consensus reached over time by just about everyone (e.g. trying to grow pines or maples indoors - outside of a true laboratory with exact equipment - just doesn't work), and that's where friendly advice comes in to help save time, if nothing else, so people don't end up having to start from Square one every single time. The problem of your previous posting was maybe one of less than good self expression, because saying "for the tropical trees humidity is more important than watering" without your (later) explanation just comes across as plain wrong, so you can't expect no one to call you on that. Newbies grab on to such things as gospel sometimes and the result can be very sad for them if they misinterpret what's said. There was no damning attitude - sometimes being corrected can be hard to take - I certainly know that, but there isn't always a perfect, harmless way to do it.

  • hooks
    17 years ago

    Lucy
    When I said damning attitude I was not refering to this paticular post. I dont consider your question as to what was said damning and I understand why my statement needed further explanation for some. There are however many occations where a damning attitude is used on this forum and for someone who spends so much time on here such as yourself you would have to be blind not to see it. One paticular such occation was in a recent post where I was talked down to because of the green cambium layer which definately exists on my Juniper. On that posting I was only passing on information that I had expierience with for the benefit of a newcomer to bonsai. I never at any time said that I was any type of expert on Junipers, and I even posted a reference link for use of gaining further information. The goal of a site like this is for those with expierience to pass on that information to others without expierience. What I dont understand is why there are those who decide to chastise others who have less expierience, its just counter productive and a waste of time for those here to learn. I'm not saying that your expierience is wrong, but I do believe we should all be open to new ways of doing things, bonsai came into existance because of the rich doing something new and potting a tree. New information means progress and progress is how we learn to adapt things such as plants to different environments than is offered in the wild. If all people were as stubborn as a choice few on this forum bonsai would have never been invented in the first place.
    Tim

  • skeeeter_1_yahoo_com
    16 years ago

    Hi! Hopefully someone can help me with this. I have just received a pony tail palm "snipping" from my friend...she cut a "baby" shoot from hers and now I have it. I am not sure what to do with it. I have it in a clear glass with water sitting on my window sill. Should I get it started that way or get it into dirt right away to grow that way? The shoot has a small part of the stem. I don't want it to die in the water or in the dirt for that matter by just planting it in the dirt with no roots.....that is my conflict. What is going to happen to my friend's palm once she has cut into it to get me a baby shoot? Thanks for your help in advance.

  • vetivert8
    16 years ago

    My Beaucarnea/Nolina lives out all year. I have had it for 17 years. It is not grown as a bonsai.

    A few years ago we had a run of 'hard-for-us' frosts (-7C) and the top growth was killed right back. I left it alone and the top resprouted with multiple heads. The regrowth is neither as long nor as vigorous as the original head. The top now also looks quite 'craggy' . At most the plant would be about 12" high with a 'trunk' about 6" across at the base. My memory of the root system, from when I repotted about eight years ago, was that it was not vast. Nothing like an Aloe, for example.

    It is in a terra cotta pot, about 14" high, unglazed and is in a mostly sunny place close to a wooden wall. It gets rained upon. I grow it in a fairly gritty mix and the pot is up on feet and well-drained. If I happen to be passing with a container of liquid fertiliser it gets a splosh but I've not seen startling growth come of it.

    I have seen pictures of these plants growing in arid conditions - tall trunks - in, I think, zone 10, in what may have been a clay-type soil from its appearance. Dry tropical. It doesn't seem to mind my much wetter zone 9, though.

    I have others, younger and smaller, growing in plastic pots. So far I have not done any root pruning on any of them. However, when I bought them - bargain remainders at 50c each - they had very few roots as they had been seriously over-watered. It took time and a very gritty mix, along with thrifty watering, for the root system to develop.

    From that experience I'm wondering if a partial root pruning - half at a time, may be useful for developing gabro's plant. Also growing the plant in a relatively cool environment as a means whereby growth can be reduced while still keeping the plant's form.

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