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| i'm a newbie and i plan on "practicing" on some jade trees. i've heard that they are hardy, and i allready have some on hand (and getting ready to buy a house doesnt leave much extra money to mess with). and oh course, the bonsai book i pick up doesnt have anything about jade trees! dunno how i did that *rolls eyes at herself* . is there anything different about jade trees, or are gereral bonsai rules applicable to them?
oh, PS, being that i live in michigan (zone 6 i beleive) and jade's a succulent, would it be better kept outside or inside? |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Whew! First, 'hardy' in plant speak means able to weather winter, below freezing temps, and needing months of it for proper dormancy to renew for spring growth. Jades are tropical, and therefore not hardy at all (certainly not in MI, where they need to be grown indoors except in summer, though can take a lot of punishment compared to some others. Second, what you mean by bonsai 'rules' and what I (or others) might mean is debatable - I don't know if you're referring to horticultural aspects, or styling, or what. But as jades are not traditional bonsai subjects and do grow differently from e.g. maples or pines, the answer is yes and no. Want to clarify your Q. a bit? |
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| More common than jade is a plant with the common name mini-jade - Portulacaria afra, aka elephant bush, elephant food, or spekboom. It is a pretty durable (hardy?) plant that will most enjoy summer vacations outdoors in full sun and winters in a very bright & cozy warm place if you have one. I have tried different soils and have found that pure Turface yields the healthiest plants for me. I feed with a balanced blend (20-20-20) soluble fertilizer. Bonsai rules are guidelines that, after you learn them and how they apply to bonsai composition, you can bend or break to make the composition look pleasing to the eye. I guess you could say that your plants are much more likely to look believable if you know the rules, but then break them, as opposed to not knowing the rules and break them. Knowing the rules can help you put together a composition that looks good even while you break them. This is a Portulacaria afra I bought as a houseplant at a big box store quite a few years ago. In the pic, it has just been pruned hard & brought in for a winter under lights. Is this the plant you are referring to? |
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- Posted by beckerster 6 (My Page) on Mon, May 22, 06 at 18:41
| Haha! thanks for the clairification on terms, lucy! i guess i've allways had the wrong definition on that one. i guess i ment more durable and easier to keep alive (and harder to kill...hehe) i guess i dont really have hugely specific questions. i was just wondering if there were any things NEVER to do to jades that you are supposed to do to traditional bonsai and vice versa... things like ways of pruning or training that wouldn't work with a jade. i guess if my questions are too vague dont worry about it *shrugs* tapla, i think thats my plant (?) altho i've never seen one with such "rough" bark...heres a pic of one of mine...
thanks guys so much for the answers and help!!! Beckie <3 |
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| Looks like Crassula ovata "Crosby's Compact". I would probably lose one of the trunks. randy |
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| Once in a long while someone gets away with trying to wire these, but it's a bad idea as the 'trunks' and branches are so prone to just breaking rather than bending. If you want a jade to bend in one direction, just keep that side of it close to high light, and if necessary, put it up on something keeping it above the light source except just where that branch is... so it'll grow down to the light, but don't expect instant results, and the rest of the plant will also need decent lite to live, but from a different angle. Always resist the urge to water 'on principle' rather than when needed and only then, especially in winter. You can break off a leaf, stick it into the soil and you'll get baby plants within wks. |
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- Posted by gnome_in_pa Zone 6 (My Page) on Tue, May 23, 06 at 0:03
| Beckie, As Lucy said be sure not to over water Jades. During the winter I only water about once a month. During the summer when they are actively growing they can utilize more water. Never let them freeze, they will turn to mush. Do keep them outside during the summer, that is when mine put on the bulk of their growth. Norm |
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| I guess for the sake of argument, I will disagree with dear Lucy:-). It's not accurate to make a blanket statement that Crassula can't be wired. I've probably wired 50 or more of them over the years. I've not broken a limb or trunk yet. BUT, it's not something to learn on. You should probably have basic wiring techniques and skills down before tackling this plant. Wire on trunks and branches should be a little loose or if tight, be ready to take off if it starts to bite in. |
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- Posted by terrestrial_man 9 (jwcsplit@netscape.net) on Tue, May 23, 06 at 16:10
| Wow. this thread is very interesting as I consider this Crassula to be a weed and home to all the snails/slugs in my yard!!! I had cleaned out most of this plant and sent it off to the local dump several years ago but threw a nice looking stem of it into a gutter with about 1/2 inch of accumulated soil in it on the north side of my house. Of course since this is CA it not only survived well but grew like the weed it is! I would have never thought of using it as a bonsai subject and the notion still defies my rather lack of regard for the plant. So then I guess I do have my bias against certain plants as well as for certain plants! One thought is that how about growing the plant in a regular pot until it is very large and then cutting it back and root trimming to downsize into a bonsai arrangement. cheers. |
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| The last 3 plants in the photos were grown in 3 gallon pots for a couple years, then moved to smaller containers. Most plants grown for bonsai are done that way. It doesn't make much sense to put twigs in bonsai pots if you are wanting plants of any size before you die of old age :-). randy |
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- Posted by terrestrial_man 9 (jwcsplit@netscape.net) on Sun, May 28, 06 at 3:05
| Absolutely Randy! Yet I see alot of those down at Home Depot or Target or wherever! Gives bonsai a bad rap! |
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| Beckerster, you can split your cutting, root it, & plant it together at an angle for an interesting effect. In a zone where large jade grows rapidly, I would not wire it. It makes a nice shape, but it would be unstable & topple easily as the jade grows. In a warm zone, the stability of the plant would be better with pruning. |
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| baci I'm curious, how old do you think my last 2 plants are? Why do you think they are slow growers anywhere else but California? I'm basically able to imitate your climate here. The last 2 are less than 4 years old grown from tip cuttings that were only an inch or two long. They are not unstable and don't show any signs of wanting to topple over. Why would you think using wire to train something makes it weaker? I personally don't think pruning only will or can provide as nice a looking plant over a long period of time, but that's me and that's based on doing both for many years. randy |
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| Humph! They look terrible. I have a Jade tree ( Crassula) that I have had for 15 years. I have never pruned it or done anything to it except cut off some of the excess growth at the base. It looks better than any of these. Let nature take its course. Forget some of these absurd Japanese rules. |
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- Posted by terrestrial_man 9 (jwcsplit@netscape.net) on Mon, May 29, 06 at 2:59
| What Japanese rules?? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! While I have already stated my feelings about this particular subject that is just my own feelings and whatever validity they have they have to me alone. |
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| ifraser I see a lot of things here that I personally don't care for. But I keep it to my self and would never use words like "terrible". Opinions are certainly welcome, but one would hope others would use discretion in choice of words. You could have easily said IMO they look better if left to grow without pruning. That would be accurate if you believed it. But it's egotistical to rip another's work based on your personal tastes. Also lacks class. I think it gives a nice little window in the kind of person you are. IMO your opinions aren't worth a lot , just bluster and brag. randy |
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| In ifraser25’s defense, you have to see where he is located. He is probably looking at mammoth jades, & the idea of bonsai technique seems absurd to him. Some of the ideas I would not try also – for me they would create a weak, leggy plant with an unstable root system. That is because of my zone, not a fault in technique. There are some local jades (C. ovata) that are pruned with bonsai style, but you are talking with at least a 10-14 inch base & 12 ft tall. The P. afra are also quite large. The Crosby’s compact or another dwarf variety might be a one to experiment on. I personally would like to see some of his plants. We can grow some large jades here in CA, but I bet he would put most of the ones I have seen to shame. His country is also where the novel P. afra varieties are coming out of. On a daily basis he is probably looking at plants the rest of us could never imagine or only dream of. We could all probably learn much from him. |
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| First of all, beckerster, crassula o. will work indoors all year if you have a bright window to put it in. The more direct sun you have, the redder the tips will be. In shadier areas, the leaves stay more green and the plants get kind of leggy. Yours seems a bit leggy. There is too much space between leave sets, so it probably needs more light. I would also do some serious pruning now to encourage the trunk to fatten up for bonsai training. I just whacked several of my little ones as this is the tecnique many have reported as the way to do it in the cactus and succulent forum, which by the way is the best place to learn care for your plant - bonsai or not. Now, Randy, everytime I see your photos, I am amazed and jealous. Okay, so the last couple of pictures there were of 4 year old specimens? Please share your secrets. I want, I want, I want - do I sound like a 5 year old at the grocery store yet? =0) Terrestrial man, your logic is so right on. I don't know who Jerry Copeland is, but I like his thought processes! Baci, sorry, but there is no defense for ifraser25's rudeness to Randy. If he or she doesn't like the art of Bonsai, why is he/ she even on this forum? My understanding is that Bonsai is an art form not limited to one plant. If you don't like a particular plant in this form, don't train one for yourself. Don't insult someone's hardwork with name-calling. Infraser25, be careful who you insult. Most will not jump at the opportunity to help someone who is so forthcoming with insults. Take Randy's advice about how to dish out YOUR opinions! Stepping off my soapbox, |
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| Tanyag, my point is this. I understand both sides & have myself been insulted on forum, but I did not see the comment as that much of an insult, for the following reason. I used to live in a cold area, & when I first saw a jade tree it was the most exotic thing I had ever seen. Now I live in an area where it is quite common, & my opinion of the plant has changed. Local growers have been doing jade bonsai for years – it is not a new idea although the style/technique is different. It looks like most posters all like the same plant. All I am saying is not to shun a poster who is from a country that plant is native to. If I were from a country where I was used to seeing huge massive jade & P. afra species, bonsai would look silly to me also. In negating his contribution, even if it was abrupt, there is a loss. I simply understand where the poster was coming from. rjj1, I did not answer you earlier because I did not see your post. As far as comparable growth, a 1.5 inch diameter cutting grown with bonsai technique in CA would have a base of about 5 inches at 5 years. Height is often pruned, so I do not go by that. However, a pruned height would be about 5 ft. |
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| You know, I think your right. I should toss my crap and leave bonsai to much wiser and more critical people like yourself and your fine Brazilian friend. Only a lowlife like myself in flyover country would do something like this for fun. The fine upstanding people in California really are the forerunners of everything. What was I thinking? People like you a real turnoff. No wonder bonsai has lost so much interest in America. Think I'll stick to more friendly sites from now on. randy |
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| Well I live in CA and thought of jade as a weed but now see this as very cool. I bet I have a trunk in that jumble of mine thats massive. I can't believe anyone here would use the term "terrible" unless this was turned into some sort of reality show. How about "Bonsai masters steel cage death match" Funny how this plant seems exotic to some and a junk landscape plant to others. I'll trade my junk jade for someones east coast junk japanese maple anyday :) Back to beck: I think this all proves you can use a jade for "eye" training. I think I will. If its convienent to keep them alive in your area. Does anyone have a better suggestion for an easy growing, inexpensive zone 6 tree for practice his bonsai look? Maybe elm seedlings or home depot junipers? Terrible = someone without a better idea, maybe without a clue. |
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| My mother received a Jade Plant nearly 20 years ago as a gift from a friend from S. Africa. She gave me some cuttings last winter that I immediately potted in bonsai pots. Over this summer, they have nearly triples in size in the zone 8b climate here on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. I am pleased with the shape they are taking, but would like to know if there is something I can do about the disproportionately large leaves. Several are over 3" long (the tree is about a foot wide and ~8" tall). I don't suppose I can just leaf prune like I do to ficus? I've pinched off some leaves and new shoots have come out from those locations! I wish I would have found this site before I did that because I don't like where some of these new branches have come out. Soil is 50% potting soil and 50% baked clay. Thanks in advance! |
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- Posted by gnome_in_pa Zone 6 (My Page) on Mon, Sep 18, 06 at 21:08
| Sam, Every few years I prune my jades hard. This year I removed all the foliage of most of my succulants. The new leaves are indeed smaller but this is a temporary condition. Here is a before picture. Norm |
Here is a link that might be useful: Before pruning
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- Posted by gnome_in_pa Zone 6 (My Page) on Mon, Sep 18, 06 at 21:14
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- Posted by joshinator 6 (My Page) on Mon, Dec 1, 08 at 14:30
| IMO, a lot of these characteristics of jades being viewed as annoying and "bad" can also be used for benefit. "They grow fast and have huge trunks." "Branches sprout when you take the leaves off." "Easy to find; weedy; all over the place." |
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| I am new to this site, and if i can figure out how to up load a pic of my jades i will post. I started mine on a window sill in wyoming 31 years ago. I only got about four hours of sun light, but i used a 20-20-20 liquid fertilizer and got pretty good growth. Good enough to fool a judge at the county fair into believing my 7 year old "tree" was 15 to 20 years old. It is a very forgiving plant to practice with and can be neglected and still survive. I gave one of my trees to a sister inlaw and told her to water it not more than once a week. She watered every day, when the leaves began to fall off she placed it in a pan of water because she thought it was still not getting enough water. She was right, all the roots were rotted of. I took the tree home, let it dry out in the shade untill the rotted parts fell off and calloused over, then repotted it. That was almost 20 years ago and it is still living. |
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- Posted by greenman28 Nor Cal 7/8 (My Page) on Sun, Feb 8, 09 at 12:14
| Alas, I wish Randy were still around! Sadly, rude behavior chased him off. Would that we had his wisdom and his experience with us again. Josh |
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| It is sad when someone who is excited about learning a new skill is discouraged by the people who are so full of their own "knowledge and skill." I do not know that much about a lot of things, but I do know how much it hurts to be put down by some egotistical know it all. When I look at my first attempt at bonsai I see many mistakes, but what I learned far out weighed my dissapointments. I am now a Certified Arborist and have a far better understanding of the habit of plant growth and how to properly prune a tree for structure, health and shape. Using proper pruning I can keep a Southern live oak as a small healthy tree in what ever space is available. Using methods I learned early with bonsai, learening from mistakes and attending tree conferences I have gained enough knowlege to understand how little I know. Twenty years ago I went to watch a demonstration put on by Ben Oki, after the demonstration I asked if he would look at my miniature jade which I had been pinching for about 12 years. He agreed, though many in the local bonsai club said what I had was not a true tree, therefor not a bonsai. Mr. Oki dissagreed, he said it was excellent material to learn and practice on. He pointed out a few things I could do to improve the look of my plant. He also pointed out that for many years bonsai were not wired and were only pruned to shape by knowing the habit of plant growth. The use of wire and weights accelerates our ability to shape and train a tree, but it is not the only way. These are only the thoughts of an old geezer, and not ment to admonish anyone. |
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- Posted by pinecone_dundee (My Page) on Thu, Feb 12, 09 at 15:16
| I see you posted this message in 2006. It would be interesting to see now how your bonsai is turning out. How is it doing? Were you able to keep it from freezing during your winters? Do you have any pictures of it. I am also interested in succulent bonsais and so was wondering how yours did. |
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