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jonos87

Bonsai kit with seeds

jonos87
17 years ago

I was recently bought a bonsai kit, containing 3 types of seeds:

2 Umbrella Pine Seeds (Pinus Pinea)

A packet of Colorado Blue Fir Seeds (Picea Pungens 'Glauca')

A packet of Common Spruce Seeds (Picea Abies)

I (probably foolishly) germinated them recently - as they were a present from an enthusiatic girlfriend who wanted to see the results of her present! - and am waititng to repot them from the origonal small pots provided (with cocount fibres) into individual pots. Could anyone suggest soil mixes and ratios for these plants, and if I should put them outside this year, or wait till next spring/early summer as I have germinated them so late in the year.

Someone is bound to comment on the fact there is a similar post from January of this nature....i didnt find it helpful as it turned into a rant between two people about the definition of umberella pines and latin nomenclature.

And please, no one say along the lines of "chuck the seeds away and go buy one", as another similar thread so helpfully suggests. I DO plan to buy a few plants to practice techniques on so that in a few years time, if all is well, I can try out my skills on my now seedlings.

Comments (9)

  • rjj1
    17 years ago

    I love propagating, so no rant from me on this subject.

    If you live in an area in the UK where it rarely freezes, outside is the place to be for your seedlings.

    During those really cold spells you can cover with mulch to help hold temps. I would probably wait until spring to move to individual pots, but that's just me. That gives you time to research soils and find out what's available where you live.

    What I use here may not be what you can get there.

    Good luck

    randy

  • jonos87
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Thanks for the advice Randy!

    I didn't want to move mine to individual pots so soon... as previous attempts with another kit failed because the plant died shortly after i moved it to another pot (though i think this may have been due to overwatering rather than merely moving it to another pot...). However, the pots provided were extremely small, around 2.5-3 inches diameter circles, and an unusally large number of my seeds germinated, meaning the plants are really pushed for space and growing very close together. Should I perhaps try repotting some of the stonger (or weaker, which would you suggest?) plants so that the remainder have move space in the origonal pot?

  • panthrina_hotmail_com
    17 years ago

    Jonos87-

    Conifer seedlings, especially pines must remain undisturbed for atleast one year. This allows the proper symbiotic fungal mycelia to become established on the roots (I would bet money that is they why your previous attempt failed). Broadleaved seedling may be lifted after 6 months. This should all be done outdoors of course. Don't worry about the overcrowding, they will be fine for a year.

    I would suggest moving them to the ground once it is safe. This will aid in good root growth an help the trunk increase in girth. Feeding should be done as usual and you may start initial trimming of the candles to encourage good branch structure and needle size. Leave the trees in the ground for at least 5 years and dig them up every two years and do basic root prunning. This will help develop the proper root structure and nebari. You should also know that not every seedling will develop into a tree that will be suitible for Bonsai but with proper pruning and trimming the chance that some of them will be culled can be minimized.

    Pinus aristata

  • lucy
    17 years ago

    Sacrifice the weaker ones for the stronger ones that have the best chance - don't let them crowd out the good ones. Just pinch them out slowly. It's done all the time.

  • gnome_in_pa
    17 years ago

    Pinus,

    You Wrote: "Conifer seedlings, especially pines must remain undisturbed for atleast one year."

    I have 30 very happy and healthy pine seedlings that I started this year that say otherwise. The Bonsai Today book on Pines has an excellent article outlining the early treatment of black pine seedlings. After a few months in the seed tray the seedling are uprooted and all of the roots are removed. The seedlings are treated as cuttings from this point until they re-root. This is done in order to negate their tendency to grow a strong taproot and encourage lateral roots. It works as described albeit with about a 40% mortality rate. But I would rather lose them up front than cultivate inferior seedling for the years that it will take.

    Also: "This allows the proper symbiotic fungal mycelia to become established on the roots (I would bet money that is they why your previous attempt failed)."

    Are you suggesting that mycorrhiza are spontaneously generated? I don't believe that this is correct. Mycorrhiza are introduced, either from a mature tree or from a commercialy prepared product. Regardless, I have it on good authority that the emphasis placed on mycorrhiza is greatly overstated. It is his contention that mycorrhiza is unnecessary if the grower pursues an appropriate regimen of fertilization, and that fertilizer itself discouragese the growth of mycorrhiza.

    Also: "you may start initial trimming of the candles to encourage good branch structure and needle size."

    Practicing needle reduction on such young material would seem to be counterproductive to the goal of trunk development.

    Norm

  • lucy
    17 years ago

    Gnome - you make a lotta sense!

  • gnome_in_pa
    17 years ago

    Lucy,

    Thanks, just trying to think logically. This is my first time with Pine seedlings, I have tried collecting Pines before with very poor results. The seedlings are doing much better.

    Norm

  • panthrina_hotmail_com
    17 years ago

    Norm-

    I was giving him general information on pine genera, not P. thunbergiana specifically. I only have experience with my native Ponderosa's but being that both species are yellow pines, what you say might be true for my Ponderosas as well.

    As for 'bonsai kits', I don't like them because the two that I've tried have all consisted of inferior seed. I have a Ponderosa in my yard that I harvest seeds from. Soaking them in a bucket for a day or two give me very high yields.

    As for the promotion of beneficial fungi, of course I'm not suggesting that. But if one is propagating seeds out doors, spoors will eventually land in the trays and germinate, hence the leaving of them for one year. That seems to be a safe amount of time. Being that I live in a cold desert, the Great Basin, where summers are dry and break 100 F for days and winters can get to below 0 F with up to 4 ft. of snow in one storm, I tend to be very cautious in my raising of bonsai and would like to give them every benefit and chance for a good, long life I can give them. I know that chemical plant feed discourages fungal activity, that is why I tend to use organic fertilizers, especially on all my conifers. They never get any chemical food.

    I suppose I should have mentioned that trimming of pines doesn't start until after they start to develop a noticable branch structure. And again I did say preliminary training, meaning that the training is very basic and sporadic. Of course when you are growing trees in the ground, you really can just leave them to their own for the time they are there but doing a little candle pruning and wiring while they are getting nice and fat every couple of years actually helps. The use of sacrificial shoots also helps a lot as well.

    P.aristata

  • huddster
    16 years ago

    Hello, I know it's a bit late but I bought seeds like this from the natural world shop at about the same time as you, I planted them this time last year, two umbrella pines, one died about a month after I repotted it, i think from overwatering.

    The other is just over a foot tall, i've still got it inside i'm going to plant it in the garden once i've moved into a house with a garden! But until then it's sitting in a pot in my living room quite happily!

    All the best

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