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| For the longest time I really didn't know what Bonsai growing was.. i thought it was just growing a plant in a little pot *rolls eyes*. People told me a few times when the topic came up, but I didn't really grasp what it was and didn't really see the purpose. I've always enjoyed plants, and I've done some landscaping stuff in our backyard and a veggie garden, etc. Well i was at a friends house a few weeks ago, and he had a nice little Juniper (I'm pretty sure it was), pretty traditional pruning and pot, and I simply couldn't get over how cool and intricate and real and tiny it was. I was in a mildly "alternate state of mind" at the time and it amused me way to much to not have to get one myself. So here I am :-D
I've been doing some reading and some looking on ebay and other sites etc. at various trees for sale (and plenty not for sale). I really love the things that some people have done to Giant Sequoias as well as some Oaks. I like the natural looking pieces that are fairly upright with simpler leaf and branch arrays more than the really abstract ones that have been trained in coils and turns etc. ok it feels good to have that "i'm new" rant out of the way. Point being, i'm a college student and I really don't feel like I have the time or space or anything else to make a big hobby out of starting my own tree and carefully training it. I'd like to get one that's atleast a couple years old thats been trained and already on track. I think from there i'd be able to maintain it and keep it looking nice. I have a south facing window in my room that whatever i get could have sunlight from. I know i could reliably water it and stuff, so it doesn't need to be drout tolerant. Would I be able to maintain one fine without learning the full art if I got one that was already a few years old? The standard beginner tree seems to be the Juniper, but what are some other possibilities that you guys would recommend? I'd like to try and stay under $30 - $35, but if I find one that will do well in my environment and that has a nice branch structure and small leaves, i'll take it into consideration. Where would I look for them locally? a nursery? flower shop? Herbs shop? any other tips you guys have would be great. thanks
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Follow-Up Postings:
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| Hi, the easy answer is get a ficus (there are many types), but the hard answer is - it depends. Even ficus, normally an 'easy' tree to grow (look at all the half dead office plants!), will not behave as you'd like without certain requirements such as humidity from at least a wide tray of stones and water under the pot, but never touching the water so roots won't rot, really high light x 14 hrs/day - which to a bonsai person means a full spectrum 1-2 bulb high wattage fluorescent 4-6 inches above the tree, and a commitment to learning when and when not to water, plus mixing soil components so that it drains very quickly when watered, also avoiding rot (which is very easy to 'get' if potting soil (full of peat) is used, rather than half the mix being small aquarium gravel, a little bark mulch and non-peaty soil (from a garden centre), OR just a good orchid mix. Every year or two the roots need to be pruned a certain way, and the foliage and possibly some small branches pruned to hold its shape. And forget A/C being in the room - bonsai hate it! See the problem is not NOT getting a young tree and having to train it, but continuing to care for it as years go on because it is a living thing with individual (and species) genetic quirks built in that need addressing, along with occasional insect pests, dry and dull environments, forgetful (or overeager) 'waterers', etc. Believe it or not, I don't want to turn you off bonsai, but maybe the thing to do first is read up on them (lots of bks out there), consider that they have to be treated as more than coffee table decor, and that each tree has different needs (including those clerks tell you can be grown indoors... but cannot), etc. Unless you're prepared to work on shaping which gets out of shape as the tree grows (and they continue to do so til they die), and everything else here, you might want to wait til you do have more time or inclination, and/or have done some reading, because there's nothing worse than losing your first tree to discourage you for good (though it happens to most of us). |
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- Posted by porshfan04 KS (My Page) on Thu, Nov 9, 06 at 0:52
| i see where your coming from. I don't want the typical desk plant that everyone and my grandma has, nor do i want to get a tree just to kill it. The one my friend has that i was referring to is in the basement sort of near a small window (those ones near the ceiling. He knows some about plants, but i can't see him sticking to a regiment of caring for it like its supposed to be. Do you suppose it has a downhill course ahead of it? /-: I could make it a little alternate environment without much trouble... like a shelf up on the wall a ways (out of the way of a/c and careless hands and stuff. as well as it being slightly warmer there) and set up an adjustable fluorescent array on a timer (i know a lot about light spectrum needs, lumen outputs, seasonal light cycles and that stuff). Then it would be no trouble to give it a humidity tray as well, which could be pretty effective from the warmth of the lights. the room has pretty good circulation, so it wouldn't really be a "dull" environment. is it hard to determine if a plant is in proper soil mix when you get it? like could i tell before buying one by feeling it? i wouldn't want to go repotting and stuff right when i got it. between the shock of a new environment and moving roots around and me being a newbie, i'm afraid i'd up and kill it. maybe i got the wrong message across. i can learn how to care for it. I just can't be moving dirt around and making gardening messes on a regular basis. I also have a little bit of the instant gratification tendancy, and i want a bonsai plant now, not in a few years (-: with a setup like what i described, do you think i could succeed? |
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| Oh yes, you can, and you don't have to have regular messes, just when it starts to climb out of the pot to find a real estate dealer every year or so! As far as the soil goes... 1) if you find one with rocks GLUED to the top of the soil pry them off first and discard them. 2) if the soil is damp when you stick an unvarnished chopstick inside (or is obviously still wet below the surface) then don't water til more of it has dried. 3) 99% of 'mall-sai' do come in $(*&$# soil which needs redoing... better to assume it than not. If you can find a 'bonsai' readi-mix somewhere, then add some small grit to it, but if not add it to whatever soil (coarse particles vs black or very fine particle stuff) you do use. But... be prepared! You are entering dangerous territory... one is never enough and you could end up with a room full of trees and no books! It's an obsession, not a hobby :-). |
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- Posted by porshfan04 KS (My Page) on Thu, Nov 9, 06 at 9:25
| sigh i do know about hobbies turned obsession. it's gone from woodworking to jewelry smithing to fine briar pipes and now to little trees. i guess they're better things to get hooked on than some :-P i reckon i could get my things together for one and get it all situated when i'm home for either thanksgiving or winter break. we have a HUGE garden center near where i live that has everything from Mom's front porch flowers to full grown trees that they deliver. do you think i'd be able to get soil intended for bonsais there? maybe even a good starter plant? about going looking for real estate... don't you keep them in the same pot (or atleast about the same size) their whole life in order to keep them at their small size? i thought this was the case, and you only took them out to trim the roots and get out any bad soil, etc. |
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| Ok, well yer average bonsai often starts as a large specimen (5-10 yrs old) that you might find at a nursery (just as a regular tree of ?? feet high), OR as a similar one that's been ground-grown for a few yrs to fatten the trunk. These are then chopped back (in late winter) to 1-3' or even less, depending on the tree (and if they're ones known to bud back - grow new branches - below any that have been chopped off). Then new smaller branches grow up from the older, fatter trunk, eventually get woody and stop looking like toothpix, and are (sometimes) chopped again - at least 1-2 choice ones, the others being cut off entirely - unless you want a 'broom' style (the kind that looks like what you drew as a kid - a big balloon on a short trunk - very popular for Chinese elms). From then on, you work with the few branches to encourage twigginess ('ramification') by pruning them back to a few leaves per each, which hopefully will divide into two new, even smaller ones, etc. etc. While all this is going on over a few years, the tree will be in relatively large (not necessarily bonsai) pots, and only when it's about the size you want it to be indefinitely and has some shape and interest does it go into an appropriate sized bonsai pot... to be root pruned every couple of years with fresh soil added. You can get bonsai soil at dedicated bonsai dealers, or regular soil at a garden centre where you ask them for non-peaty coarse stuff that'll drain fast, but don't ask them for 'bonsai' soil because they probably won't have a clue. Or you can go to a farm 'Feed' store, get a bag of chicken grit med. grade, throw in some well composted pine bark mulch (not those big nuggets!) and maybe some aquarium gravel.... and have a very good all purpose mix (only a little mulch for pines, maples, etc., more for Chinese elms for instance, and a lot less for ficus, though a LITTLE 'tropical" soil in the ficus mix of grit (if not aq. gravel, then crushed lava rock, pumice, turface, haydite and akadama (expensive bonsai 'soil' you can buy over the internet) even perlite in a pinch) isn't terrible. There are no hard and fast rules or measurements, etc. for all this... it's something to play with over time and get a feel for considering your environment, trees, components accessible to you, your watering habits, etc. We all lose some while learning and beyond, but it's part of the experience, so don't get too attached to any one thing or you won't want to try again, and that's not good! |
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- Posted by porshfan04 KS (My Page) on Thu, Nov 9, 06 at 17:17
| ok i think i'm starting to get the gyst of it. find your tree specimen of choice and cut it off at the height you like. new branches form and eventually look like branches. prune branches to keep things neat and tidy and use wires in dormant seasons to manipulate branches to where you want them. continue until you like what you see. transfer to bonsai pot. make sure it gets plenty of light and don't over or under water it. i talked to some people today and found out that a guy sells trees and starter kits out of the back of his car down the street from where i live on weekend mornings, so i'm going to go and talk to him on saturday and see what he recommends for my specific area and what not. i'll report back what i find out /end up with (-: |
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| NO NO NO NO NO NO! Do NOT, on pain of ever doing bonsai again with any confidence, do NOT buy anything from a guy selling out of his car! Those guys are the scourge of bonsai! They have been paid some measly sum to lie to everyone about their pathetic juniper cuttings stuck in a pot with pebbles all glued to the soil. They tell you they can be grown indoors, to water by submersion (a big no no) and all kinds of gibberish that they think people want to hear. Don't do it. Go to the supermkt if necessary and find a ficus (but not a benjamina - they don't make great bonsai), or Wal-Mart (if no other choice), anywhere but the guy on the street. Have I made myself clear here :-)? Whew... hope I'm in time! |
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| Hi again, I'm ok now, and should fill you in a bit more. For one thing, those trees are always planted in gunk. For another, they're 99% junipers, often dead for wks, but you can't tell, because they don't 'show' it often for wks, and those fast talkers know nothing and could care less about bonsai or anything else green, though can be so convincing. That's not the way to start off. Watering by sub/immersion is not good because water doesn't run through the soil properly taking away salts and chemicals that are not wanted (from fertilizer, sloughed off root bits, etc., and don't drain well. Normally I wouldn't tell anyone to go to Wal-Mart either for plants - and I emphasize plants, not necessarily their 'bonsai', but if there are no real bonsai dealers where you live (and often their salespeople are also just that - sales people, not knowledgable growers, and have their own spiels) or tropical plant outlets, it's still better than off the back of a van. Have fun! |
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- Posted by gnome_in_pa Zone 6 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 9, 06 at 19:37
| Porshfan, The setup you describe seems adequate for a smaller tree. As Lucy mentioned Ficus is the most obvious choice for indoor culture but certainly not the only possibility. You asked about your friends tree, if it is indeed a Juniper it won't last long in his basement. Same for you, please don't buy a Juniper for your dorm. A pretty good book that focuses on indoor bonsai is "Bonsai in your home" by Paul Lesniewicz. ISBN 0-8069-0781-9. It is a double format book. The first half gives general information on bonsai, while the second half gives specific information on various trees that can be grown indoors. By the way I too am an amateur silversmith and have made a few nice pieces that I am proud of. I never took a lesson, just read everything I could find. If you don't already have it I highly recommend "The complete metalsmith" by Tim McCreight. ISBN 0-87192-240-1. Norm |
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- Posted by bill_ftmyers_fl zone10 SW Florida (My Page) on Thu, Nov 9, 06 at 19:44
| I agree with what has been said but would like to throw 2c at you. I started out in bonsai years before I knew what I was doing. I had a mid size regular pot with 6 small leaf ficus growing in them for years. Ill be honest, I have had them since 8th or 9th grade, 16-17 years or so ago. I have always pruned them, just didnt have the right pot and soil to call it bonsai. Then I moved to florida and could not take everything so I gave my prized plants to my sister. We as fate would have it, my sister moved down to florida a few years later and passed the plants back to me, she managed to kill one. So since they have been in the same pot for about 10 years I transplanted them to smaller individual pots. Im not at the bonsai stage yet, still had regular soil and the pots just a bit too big. Anyway, I guess to shorten this story up, I was getting board with growing plants the regular way. I have always pruned the plants like a bonsai, just never had the right pot and soil. So I started by buying a few juniper and I think a boxwood. I had no idea what bonsai was so blindly I planted the trees in small pots, regular soil. They died after one scorching summer in florida. So my next try was a few years later. I went to the local bonsai shop. I got steered in the right direction. Ill have to say, this site and the internet in general has really steered me right. But experience and patience really pays off to. Its just a big balance. So I have about 6 real bonsai and about 6 pre bonsai, they are being pruned but in regular soil in pots. Thats my story how I got started. But thats not what I was going to say. Small tangent here. What I would do if I were you, epically if you are growing indoor. Say away from juniper and the pines. I would go for a ficus, the small leaf variety. Use the soil Lucy mentioned. The reason for going with ficus, they are great indoor, out door and handle drought good. Over watering they handle well unless your watering like a mad man. Just get it some light like stated above. The link below is one of my ficus. Its the only one being bonsaied, the other are pre bonsai. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Bottom picture
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- Posted by porshfan04 KS (My Page) on Fri, Nov 10, 06 at 18:25
| you guys did indeed catch me before i went and bought a trunk show tree. good thing too it sounds like. what do you guys think of ones from online sites? some of these places seem a lot more knowledgable about the topic in general. i put a link to a specific one i was considering... a brush cherry. they do have it listed in the recommended indoor section, but like you guys said, this may be incorrect information. do places like this, who actually sell the good soil as well, plant their trees in decent stuff, or would i need to order soil with it? * http://stores.ebay.com/Lous-Bonsai-and-Orchid-Nursery * i also found this guy on ebay... seems to be pretty genuine in his intent with his plants. what do you guys think? they do have some nice looking ficus trees as well. do these grow at a very good pace, or are they pretty slow? i'd like one that grows quick enough that you get to do somewhat regular pruning and training and watch it progress let me know what you guys think of that brush cherry / that site in general. thanks for the big heads up on back-of-car trees (-: |
Here is a link that might be useful: Brush cherry
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| Jon, Lou's Bonsai is one of the worst on eBay. All of his stuff is tremendously overpriced. I would avoid buying anything on eBay until you have gained a little more knowledge. Here's a link to my favorite bonsai site. Brent has the best information published on the web, and some of the finest starter material raised for bonsai. Read everything under the 'Articles' tab, and of course look through the 'Plant Catalog' Good luck, zube |
Here is a link that might be useful: Evergreen Gardenworks
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| I just realized I didn't give you about the best indoor tree (& ficus) link there is - www.bonsaihunk.us/cultural.html. One terrific lot of info. in one place. Zube's link is the best for 'outdoor' trees, though there's 'indoor' info on it as well, but between both of them, you should be way ahead of the game starting out and they'll save you lots of time and grief. Good luck with your endeavour and come back and tell us how it's going. |
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- Posted by gnome_in_pa Zone 6 (My Page) on Sat, Nov 11, 06 at 17:12
| Porshfan, Here is a picture of some Ficus that I purchased at Lowes during the off-season of 2004-2005. It was a small pot of cuttings that was inexpensive. The variety is F. benjimina, (Mini Lucie). The leaves are less than half the size of a standard F. benjimina that I have. They also seem less likely to drop their leaves than the standard type. Cuttings root fairly easily so you can increase your stock quickly. I think I might make them into a forest group next summer. [URL=http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ficusfv2.jpg][IMG]http:// img93.imageshack.us/img93/7249/ficusfv2.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Norm |
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- Posted by gnome_in_pa Zone 6 (My Page) on Sat, Nov 11, 06 at 17:20
| Well that did not work the way it does on other sites. Here's a link. Norm |
Here is a link that might be useful: Mini Lucie
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| "bonsai for beginners" is a website that walks you through each step on creating your own bonsai with pics and info. go to the site and on the left side is a button that says something like "creating a bonsai" i was clueless until i stumbled upon it. ALSO: go to google video and search "bonsai" |
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| Neph - I just answered your same posting on another thread here - please be careful about recommending sites if you're 'clueless' because you're not ready to evaluate the sites' worth, and that one's just not worth much. |
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- Posted by gnome_in_pa Zone 6 (My Page) on Wed, Dec 13, 06 at 1:01
| Lucy, I think you are giving this person more credit than they deserve. He/She is obviously resurrecting old threads just to promote that site. This site is so slow that I just spent the better part of an hour re-reading old stuff to no end. Thanks a lot Nepheron, in the future please confine your posts to reasonable questions or answers. Norm |
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