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| Where can I get info on debarking.
What plants can be debarked besides junipers? Can all junipers be debarked? Is there a best time for debarking? Is there contraversy about the practice? Etc., etc.,etc.,??? This site has been very helpful. Paul |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Debarking? Why? I think you might mean defoliating, which is done on deciduous trees for various reasons, but if you 'debark' a tree, you'll kill it. |
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| No, not defoliating, I mean debarking. There are many juniper bonsai with the bark removed. It is used to expose and enhance veins and dead wood. I beleive Ernie Kuo (not sure of the spelling) a student of John Naka uses this technique on many of his bonsai Paul |
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- Posted by greenman28 7/8 (My Page) on Tue, Dec 11, 07 at 10:01
| I don't know, personally. How do those two gentlemen recommend you do it? I'd guess it's used to create "jin"? (but that would be the same as killing or sacrificing a limb, wouldn't it?). I look forward to the answers. Josh |
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| Oh, now I understand! It is considered to be an advanced technique, used on trees that have been pretty well grown out and styled, but it's crucial that you understand about 'lifelines' - where water and nutrients run from roots to individual branches, so you don't kill the tree. I do suggest you take some time to really study the technique, as only very experienced people attempt it and you don't want to rush into anything. |
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| Josh I hope someone can steer us in the right direction on where to find information. From the pictures I have seen it can be the whole tree. It is usually done on Junipers but I think it can be done on some other trees. Lucy Your info on trees that are already styled and an understanding of "life line" is a start but knowing the techniques, how and when they should be applied, and what trees can be debarked is the info I'm looking for. At this time of year there are many cheep conifers that could purchased for practice but only If the trees can be debarked with out killing them. Paul |
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| Paul, the technique(s) are something people often learn by watching experts work on trees, and explain as they go about tracing the lifelines, etc. It's not something I or someone else is likely to be able to tell you about in a few words here (though it would be nice). Look up Kimura and see what you can find that might help - he's the reigning worldwide expert in the technique. |
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| Found one starting point: http://www.actionvideo.freeserve.co.uk/jin.htm And I am still looking. paul |
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- Posted by naturelover_2007 8 (My Page) on Thu, Dec 13, 07 at 7:45
| I have over ten years woodcarving experience, I mostly prefer cedar. I use a power carver from Foredom. I began with a cheaper tool and burned out the moter very quickly as I really did not know what I was doing when I first began. I am self taught. I also use knives, chisels, rasps, ect.. Look up wood carvers supply on the net to see examples of both hand carving and power tools. I carve faces on walking sticks, and have begun to do animals. Before you begin to work on a live tree, you need to know the basics of wood carving, wood grain and how the dry wood will be affected by the tools. Another before you use a live tree, as Lucy has said before, study all you can read on bonsai before you start hacking. With my past ten years working with dead wood, I cure it at least a year before carving, I have just begun to experiment with my bonsai plants. This has been a slow learning process for me as I am a very new bonsai person..I have some plant material that I have had for the past ten years that are just now ready for real bonsai work. I am still reading and learning..What you have seen as finished jin takes practice before it can be mastered. I suggest practice on dead wood, then on a live plant, one that you don't mind if it dies as it can easily do if you don't know what you are doing. I do not wish to discourage you, just to inform you of the steps I took learning first carving now bonsai! Good luck to you both. ... |
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| A LOT of people use a Dremel to carve, if that helps. |
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- Posted by naturelover_2007 8 (My Page) on Thu, Dec 13, 07 at 10:16
| That is the cheaper tool I started out with... |
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| naturelover Thanks for your help. Practice, practice, etc. Do you know if spruce can be debarked? After Christmas there are a lot of small alberta spruce available at cheep prices that could be used for practice (or forest). Keep us informed of your progress and i'll keep reading. Ernie Kou as a visiting master told us at a class last years that we on the east coast don't do enough jins, shari, and debarking in general,but there doesn't seem to be enough info out there. Paul |
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- Posted by naturelover_2007 8 (My Page) on Fri, Dec 14, 07 at 8:27
| Paul, all I can say is try and see! If the material is cheap and or free and the result isn't what you want..try try again! The best part of this hobby is that you can keep getting new material if what you worked on did not work out for you...and to me it is always more fun if someone tells me I can't do 'THAT'. Like a child I am going to try it anyway! While it may seem like a shame to waste a good plant, it is usually the only way to learn. Oh and there is no plant police to lock you up if you Kill a few trees! Wink! And have fun! |
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- Posted by gregb_2007 (My Page) on Sat, Dec 15, 07 at 0:19
| Removing the bark of a spruce would be like removing the bark of a pine--pointless. As far as I know juniper is the only species this is practiced on--and not all do it. Kimura was recently quoted as saying that he doesn't remove the bark from the junipers he styles anymore. Cheng Cheng Kung of Taiwan, the master of the "silk carving" technique, uses the effect of the peeled veins of Chinese junipers to great advantage. Some species of juniper have a red color underbark that can be quite striking when revealed next to the white color of shari and jins. You can use a sharp wood chisel and gouges to remove the outer layer of bark on junipers that have an interesting color innerbark. How do you know if you've got a species that has interesting innerbark? Try removing a flake of it on the backside of your tree in a spot that will be inconspicuous if it isn't attractive. Some have a very red, almost maroon color while others have more of an orange color. If you see green, you've gone too far--you're into the cambium layer! You really have to be careful doing this as it may damage the tree. Please don't try this on a spruce, a fir or a pine. |
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| Gregb 2007, WOW, A few years ago I personally saw Warren Hill (the former curator of the national bonsai and penging museum in Washington D.C.) Work on a 500 year old yamadori Spruce collected from the rocky mountains. The thing that impressed me most was how much fun he had doing it. It also added to the natural jin's and shari's already present on the tree. I wonder if Masahiko Kimura doesn't do jins and sharis anymore because he is quite frankly bored with it. You have to admit that anyone doing the same thing for 25-30 years needs a change of pace from time to time. It's like an actor who is type cast into certain roles. If shari's shouldn't be done on pines either then what are we to do with bristle cone pines that are amoung the most striking and breath taking examples of inspiration on earth. Can we just ignore that they exist? Or the many entries into the Kokufu Ten bonsai exibition in Japan. It is only amoung the most prestigious of Bonsai shows in the world. How bout this. How bout if you agree that you'll not be doing any jins and sharis on those species and the rest of everyone else will do as they please also. Thanks |
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| Gregb 2007, You know I just read what I wrote and I really did come acrossed as quite a jerk wad. I apologize for responding so pointedly to your last entry. I really didn't need to add the last bits of what I did to illustrate my point. -dlksr |
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- Posted by gregb_2007 (My Page) on Wed, Dec 19, 07 at 0:18
| I went back to my post and tried to find where I mention jins at all; couldn't find it. And regarding the removal of bark from such species as spruce, pine and firs, I made the assumption that there may already be sharis present. I was referring to peeling the bark off THE LIVE VEIN. This simply isn't common practice for pine bonsai because the inner bark of pine is very uninteresting and pines don't like this treatment. Junipers seem to be tolerant of it. Pines don't have the same resinous wood as junipers and jins and sharis can be difficult to maintain from decay. This is why you don't see many artists inflicting sharis on healthy bark. On older collected specimens, it is quite possible for a shari to be covered by bark and if one knows what to look for, one can peel the bark away from an area on a pine, fir, or spruce to expose the shari beneath. I'm guessing this is what Warren Hill did but since I wasn't there, I can't know for sure. And Kimura still creates lots of jin and shari on junipers; again if you read my post, I said he doesn't peel the bark off the live vein on the junipers he styles the way he used to. It really helps to read through a post carefully before you pick it apart, especially when you pick away at what isn't there. Cheers |
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| Xcept for the cat fight this has been informative. Practice should help on finding what works and what doesn't but if there are any other articles that would help let us know. Where are you bonsaiest from the west coast where debarking is more widly practiced? Let's have your input. Paul3636 |
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| There is an article on veins in issue 79 - Bonsai Today Paul |
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